Modded DAC 60 and Squeezebox listening session

PeteG · « **Reply #20 on:** 26 Apr 2006, 10:20 pm »

Hi All,

Can’t make this one, but hope all have a good time.
I’ll also be interested in the out come between the DAC60 and a modded SB.

My Bolder Basic Rev 1 w/Jensens has about 100 hrs on it and sounding very good already a nice step-up from the Basic PS.

Pete

Wayne1 · « **Reply #21 on:** 30 Apr 2006, 11:53 pm »

I just returned from Mike's. There was a great turn-out. Very good food provided by Mary. THANK YOU.

There was a lot to listen to and we did not get a chance to compare different power supplies with the various SB2 mods.

What we did compare was different modded SB2s into the DAC 60 and different modded SB2s direct to Mike's amps.

The digital modded SB sounded "better" than a modded SB2 without the digital mod. A modded SB with a Bybee Purifier in the digital section improved things even more and a Silver Slipstream Bybee Purifier in a modded SB digital section was the best we heard into the DAC 60.

We also compared the DAC 60 to a modded analog output SB2 with various Bybee Purifiers. I belive most preferred the modded SB to the DAC 60. There was some debate over the sound of the Silver Slipstream Purifiers vs the Gold Slipstream Purifiers. I believe we will have to compare those two units another time.

Mike from TweekGeek brought over a pair of 5 meter Harmonic Technology CyberLight cables. These sounded VERY good. I was very impressed with the cables and the price. Roughly $1000.00 for a meter pair.

He also brought a pair of Nu-Force Reference 9 amps. He had quite a lot of tweaks to use with these such as the CyberLight interconnects, Harmonic Tech power cables. AC input Purifires, HighWire Power wraps and Starsound points.

The Reference 9s sounded VERY GOOD in mgalusha's system. VERY clean and fast. There was a slight loss of "warmth" compared to his RE Designs power amps.

I brought over a pair of the AV123 XL-S speakers. I believe all there were very impressed with the sound of these speakers. For $200.00 plus shipping, these are an absolute steal!

I am sure the others will fill in with more detail.

zybar · « **Reply #22 on:** 1 May 2006, 12:04 am »

Quote from: Wayne1

The digital modded SB sounded "better" than a modded SB2 with the digital mod.

Wayne,

What does that mean?

George

cryotweaks · « **Reply #23 on:** 1 May 2006, 12:47 am »

Just got my sytem back tegether after the listening session over at Mgalushas. Thanks to everyone for a great time, and great music. Well, err, mostly great. Serously though, great recordings and melodies, but some of those lyrics...

Observation#1
I have GOT to get the Bolder fully tweaked SB2 (analog out version) from Wayne. It sounded in-credible. The only question to be answered is silver or gold Bybees. I think that will be very system dependent. Hard to believe it bested the modded SB2 feeding the modded DAC 60, but it did. It wasn't even close.

This session really helped myself to figure out some issues going on in my own system. Sometimes we live in an audio "bubble". Hearing only our own systems, our own "house sound" can become really wacky. I knew mine was wacky, I just didn't know in what way exactly, or the root cause. Now I do. Cool.

Thanks to MGalusha for hosting the session. The food and hospitality were first rate. The system was excellent for evaluating all of our toys, and thanks to his wife for putting up with us!

Only one question remains. How does one officially become a member of the Denver Audio Mafia? Do I have to whack a "home theater in a box" system? What gives guys?

Wayne1 · « **Reply #24 on:** 1 May 2006, 12:50 am »

Quote from: zybar

Quote from: Wayne1
The digital modded SB sounded "better" than a modded SB2 with the digital mod.

Wayne,

What does that mean?

George

It means I didn't proofread my post very carefully

I have changed the post to say "without the digital mods"

In other words, comparing two modded SB2's, one with analog only mods and one with the "Full" mods, the one which had the digital section modded (full mod) sounded better running into the DAC 60 than the unit which had the digital section left stock.

bhobba · « **Reply #25 on:** 1 May 2006, 01:07 am »

Quote from: cryotweaks

I have GOT to get the Bolder fully tweaked SB2 (analog out version) from Wayne. It sounded in-credible. The only question to be answered is silver or gold Bybees. I think that will be very system dependent. Hard to believe it bested the modded SB2 feeding the modded DAC 60, but it did. It wasn't even close.

I have been following how good that is for some time now and from what I have read previously it does not surprise me at all. For me the value of the digital out is feeding something like a panny XR55 or a DEQX. Other than that the modded analogue out using the internal volume control seems the go.

My one gripe about the whole buisness is by the time I am ready to buy SB2's will probably no longer be available - I will need to get an SB3 which uses black gates in the output - drat. Maybe the next version of the SB will have more room - although I believe even with BG's it will still sound great. I am not too disapointed though because I intend to eventually ubgrade to a DEQX.

Thanks
Bill

machine · « **Reply #26 on:** 1 May 2006, 01:39 am »

I have a Sonicraft modded DAC-60 and compared it to my Modded Perpetuat PA-3 Dac and thought they were pretty close, with the DAC-60 just possibly edging out the PA-3.

Everyone seemed to beleive the DAC-60 was easily better than the PA-3, which made nme wonder about my hearing.

Well, I just rolled in some JJ 6922's in place of the Philips ECG JAN 6922 and I can tell you that the mids that seemed recessed are now right where they should be (for me).

Take this with a 'grain of salt' as I have so many things burning, in but it seems that this was a MAJOR Improvement.

I have a pair of Amperex Orange globe 7308's that I may roll in to check out. I am a little worried because some have reported that the DAC-60 pushes the tubes hard, and I don't want to burn out these expensive tubes.

Anyone with info on this I would love to talk to.

The Stock SB3 is killer, using it as my pre now. Had a little problem with the latest stuf but was able to work thru the issues. 20+ years of dealing with this stuff sure comes in handy!!

machine · « **Reply #27 on:** 1 May 2006, 01:40 am »

*** Sorry... clicked too many times, duplicate message removed. ***

brj · « **Reply #28 on:** 1 May 2006, 02:06 am »

Sounds like you guys had a fun time - thanks for reporting your findings!

To be clear, the Bolder modded SB2 with Ultimate PS, full mods and silver or gold slipstream Bybees running from analog outputs sounded better than a DAC60 with SonicCraft mods fed by.... which version of modded SB and using what digital cable?

Also, for reference purposes, what are the respective prices of the Bolder "full monty" SB2 vs. SonicCraft DAC60 + SB + digital cable?

Any idea how much impact the Bybees were having on the system? I've never heard them, but that seems to have been a focus during the comparison, and I'm wondering what difference they would have made in the DAC60 chain.

Thanks!

Wayne1 · « **Reply #29 on:** 1 May 2006, 03:02 am »

The Sonicraft modded DAC 60 was fed by all of the different modded SB2s at various times. Mike's power supply feeding the SB2 was a constant. The digital cable used was the DAC 60 owner's Audioquest.

The full analog and digital mods used for the SB2 are $385.00 without Bybee Purifiers. The Silver Slipstream Purifiers add $400.00 for a pair installed. This comes to just about the same price as this "Special Edition" Sonicraft DAC 60.

The Gold Bybee Purifiers are available in limited quanties for $500.00 a pair, installed.

Two of the modded SB2s had Bybee Purifiers in the digital signal path. These two sounded better to us than the modded SB2s without Bybee Purifiers in the digital output.

I do not recall if we did listen to a modded SB2s analog output without Bybee Purifiers. I did have such a SB2 there but we had a lot to listen to.

MarkM · « **Reply #30 on:** 1 May 2006, 04:08 am »

Quote from: Wayne1

There was a lot to listen to and we did not get a chance to compare different power supplies with the various SB2 mods.

What we did compare was different modded SB2s into the DAC 60 and different modded SB2s direct to Mike's amps.
...

The power supply comparo would have been great for folks on the fence about upgrading. I put a PS together based on the LT 1085-5 regulator, FRED bridge and premium caps. PS makes a huge difference, hard to believe a 5V source impacts the sound to such a degree.

If you can afford it, I would spring for one of Waynes Power supplies or pick up an inexpensive one that meets your budget.

The Sonic Craft mods are very basic on the Dac 60. HV power supply cap is upgraded and the output caps get the SonicCap treatment. Really minimal upgrades. IMO, there is alot left out and I'm sure the mods are targeted for a certain price point.

A few more simple mods to bring the Dac 60 to another level are to upgrade the bridge to FREDs and upgrade a couple more choice caps.

Thanks for taking the time to put this together, informative on all accounts.

Wayne1 · « **Reply #31 on:** 1 May 2006, 03:23 pm »

The Sonicraft modded DAC 60 we listened to had some premium mods to it. This was a "beta" unit that Sonicraft did for the owner before general release. It had BlackGate PS caps and Sonicap Platinums in the output. I do not know exactly what else was done, but it was fairly comparable to the mods done to the SB2.

Power supply comparisons have been done before. You just have to sort through lots of posts to find them.

If any of the new faces at the last get together wish to host another listening session JUST to compare power supplies, I am game. The gear I have on had changes quite often. I should have a Basic Rev 1 PS on hand most of the time. I have my prototype PS with Jensen caps and Bybee purifiers. PeteG has a modded Basic with Jensens and no bybees Purifiers. Mike and Jerry have full blown "Best" PS with all Silver wiring inside and out and Jensens and Bybees.

I believe Mike from TweekGeek has a RWA modded SB3 with analog mods and battery supply. While the DAM has compared AC to battery (and preferred AC) we have not compared the RWA battery mod to the new BOLDER PS with Jensens and Bybee Purifiers. Mike also has a fairly stock SB2 with an aftermarket linear supply.

So Mike, if you want to become a member of the DAM, you need to host a get together. I am sure we would all be interested in hearing the SP Techs with the Nu-Force amps.

If there is anyone in the Denver area with a higher end DAC that would wish to compare to the modded SB2, please get in touch through this forum. Sunday seems to be a good day to meet.

cryotweaks · « **Reply #32 on:** 1 May 2006, 03:33 pm »

I would be glad to host a GTG. Lets do that when I get my Ref 9 SE's in the house and burned in. Hopefully by the end of May if not sooner.

I will keep everyone posted.

Cheers!

Turk · « **Reply #33 on:** 1 May 2006, 03:45 pm »

Excuse me, Wayne.

I believe that membership in the DAM requires having to whack a pair of Bose 901s, tie them up with 18 gauge power cords and make sure they sleep with the fishes.

Wayne1 · « **Reply #34 on:** 1 May 2006, 04:51 pm »

You are correct, Jerry. However, given where Mike lives perhaps we could let him get away with running them through a wood chipper and spreading the results over Rocky Flats

Turk · « **Reply #35 on:** 1 May 2006, 06:26 pm »

I don't know. All those drivers just might damage the wood chipper. Besides, at Rocky Flats, burying anything there might cause them to come back as a hybrid...radiation, ya know.

Damn it, you've been smoking those Gold Bybees again! I knew the whole quantum thing was going to cause problems. Has Jack explored string theory yet? All those vibrating strings just ready to improve my system.

BradJudy · « **Reply #36 on:** 1 May 2006, 10:57 pm »

Quote from: Wayne1

if you want to become a member of the DAM, you need to host a get together.

Perhaps one of these days I'll host something, but there's little here of interest compared with the rest of the DAM systems.

PeteG · « **Reply #37 on:** 2 May 2006, 12:07 am »

Quote from: Wayne1

So Mike, if you want to become a member of the DAM, you need to host a get together. I am sure we would all be interested in hearing the SP Techs with the Nu-Force amps.

I would like to hear that combo, Mike do you have the Timeiece 2.1 and
what is the power output for the Ref 9 SE amps.

Pete

Tyson · « **Reply #38 on:** 2 May 2006, 04:48 pm »

Since part of the time one of the SqueezeBoxes had inverted phase, detailed comparisons are difficult. What I can say is that the DAC 60 was thoroughly outclassed in overall sound quality, at least in Mike's system. The only other definite statement I can make is that the optical cable interconnects sounded great, with a very clean and transparent upper mids and treble. Bass and lower mids weren't too bad either

Danny Richie · « **Reply #39 on:** 25 May 2006, 01:49 pm »

Sounds like you guys had a good time with these. I always have fun making comparisons. It's a great way to learn.

Wayne, congratulations on how far you were able to take the SB system. You obviously did a great job with it. I may have to borrow one from you for the RMAF this year.

I had a customer bring over one of those that was modded by one of your competitors and it was a long way from competing with my modded DAC-60. Then again my modded DAC-60 has been taken a little further than the one the you heard.

The one that you heard had a little bit more done to it than the standard mod, but it is still one of those deals where we are seeing how far we can go with it without spending much money on it.

One of the biggest improvements to the DAC-60 is to put a good set of tubes in it. I now have some Amperex Orange globe 7308's in mine. It transformed it to another level. The detail level and resolution across the board went up a bunch. The sound stage open up more too. Vocals that I thought were really good before are now better than I thought they could be. For those of you that own the DAC-60 and want to take it up a notch, Dodd Audio is selling matched sets for $70.

We are working on a super DAC version of the DAC-60 where we will be going through it and upgrading most of the guts on it including a bunch of extras that have been done to my unit like changing out the inputs and outputs (maybe WBT), rewiring it with continuos caste Copper wire, using a Bybee Slipstream filter on the data input, shielding the transformers, damping the chassis, upgrading all the critical caps, upgrade the tubes, etc.

We are going to do all of this and offer the units completed for $1,499.

When we get one finished out then I will send one up to you guys to check out.