Felix project

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JoshK

Felix project
« on: 16 Feb 2006, 09:37 pm »
Just to get the conceptual idea down straight, the Felix would something like this?

Mains > X2 cap across > Breaker > CMC > caps across > CMC > caps across > outlet

Is that about it? Basically using the CMC in lieu of Tx's and not getting balanced?

JoshK

Felix project
« Reply #1 on: 16 Feb 2006, 11:12 pm »
Quote from: Occam
Nothing would preclude you from feeding Felix via a big honking balancing transformer.


Funny you say that....my inquiry was sparked by me ordering one of the few remaining Q in a box txs.  I asked after I had given my CC # and he said he had 3-4 left....

I guess I was thinking an input CMC for each outlet too, but I guess that wouldn't be necessary.  You would just have to appropriately size the input CMC then, yeah (current wize)?

Occam

Felix project
« Reply #2 on: 17 Feb 2006, 12:09 am »
Josh,

Actually, I mispoke when I described the Felix topology described above as equivalent as an Audience Adept.
The Adept from the 6moons review -

Upon further reflection, I understand why the Adepts is -
Mains--->Breakers---->X cap + 2 Y caps----> multiple paralell CMCs terminated with Xcap to each outlet.
The potential problem with a single CMC before the paralleled (CMCs + xxx + outlet) is that that single CMC would have to pass the total of all the currents whereas those paralleled CMCs only pass the current associated with its individual outlet. The same caveat would apply to a CMC that feeds the unit or a balancing transformer. I'm not saying its impractical, just that its easier to source a CMC that won't saturate when feeding the lesser draw of an individual component. And yes, CMCs theoretically just overheat and don't saturate, but in reality they do....
The benefit of CMCs with associated caps for each outlet is that in addition to minimizing the potential problems of saturation, they also provide isolation between components.

Personally, I don't like Y caps in non balanced environments, but Audience does, and who am I to argue?

JoshK

Felix project
« Reply #3 on: 17 Feb 2006, 12:26 am »
cool, thanks... I remembered seeing that picture but couldn't find where....

with a bptx (balance power transformer) prior to this topology we are going to get something close to a Felicia in terms of filtration, I imagine.

JoshK

Felix project
« Reply #4 on: 17 Feb 2006, 12:30 am »
P.S.  I am a little surprised they use buss bars and only a single star ground.  I know it is far easier to do, but fwiw (not much) I have tried similar and didn't get nearly as good of results as when each and every outlet was star grounded.  Is this over the top or proper?  I'd think proper so that each component plugged in is star grounded without the ground being "modulated" by other components.

JoshK

Felix project
« Reply #5 on: 21 Feb 2006, 12:16 am »
I am really curious about the bus bar for ground.  It would sure be easier to work with in many cases.  Is this generally just as good when star grounded as taking each individual point to the star ground?  

As always, the grounding seems to be the mystery of diy.

Occam

Felix project
« Reply #6 on: 21 Feb 2006, 12:46 pm »
Josh,

As I recall and from the pics above, the Adept doesn't use a buss bar for grounds, but rather, daisy chains the grounds on the outlets, and finally star grounds the terminus of the chain along with the Y caps to the chassis.

sl_1800

Felix project
« Reply #7 on: 24 Feb 2006, 02:15 pm »
I'm lost, what is a "CMC"  ????  And from what I see in those pics, Audience is making a killing at nearly 4G's for that thing.  I'm sure I'm not the only one that does not know what a "CMC" is so that is how they can charge that much !!!!!

JoshK

Felix project
« Reply #8 on: 24 Feb 2006, 02:51 pm »
Well I don't know that they are making a killing, since if you add up the parts (which are a lot) you might come up with more $$ than a BPT (just guessing), but still at twice the retail.  

Anyway, this isn't to take the legs out from any manufacturer, this is just imation as the greatest form of flattery.  We are doing something similar because it was so profoundly effective.

CMC = common mode choke.  It is a type of inductor (choke) that has two windings in opposite directions to cancel electro-magnetic noise.  It is embedded in many off the shelf power filters AFAIK.

JoshK

Felix project
« Reply #9 on: 24 Feb 2006, 02:55 pm »
One other point, because the Felix is made up of a bunch a small (relatively speaking) parrellel parts, one could also choose to place the caps and chokes inside their amps (behind breaker or fuse of course) instead of in a PC.

Occam

Felix project
« Reply #10 on: 24 Feb 2006, 03:04 pm »
Common Mode Choke (CMC) -
http://everything2.com/index.pl?node_id=1503998

As to the 'killing' made via the production of the Audience Adept -
The advantage of DIYers is that our time for R&D, sourcing and manufacturing has absolutely no value, and we can sometimes sources surplus components. Audience is running a business, not a charity, and even at those prices I wouldn't think they're getting rich. Remember, the retailer has to get their 'points'.

Q: How do you make a million in the high end audio biz?
A: Start with 2 million.....

This is the Lab, and if we want to discuss 'rapacious' vendors, lets do it on another circle.

sl_1800

Felix project
« Reply #11 on: 24 Feb 2006, 05:50 pm »
Thanks for the input guys.

Salis Audio

Felix project
« Reply #12 on: 24 Feb 2006, 08:28 pm »
Where can I buy some CMC's for my double socket box I am making? Also does any one have a schematic?

JoshK

Felix project
« Reply #13 on: 24 Feb 2006, 08:44 pm »
DOS,

Paul gave me a pair of CMCs to play with.  We haven't experimented with size (uH) to know what works best, or even what value caps work best.  It looks as though the Adept uses a plethora of varying sized caps. Who knows what size cmc they used.  We need to experiment, hence the word "project".  

Here is the schematic:  Mains in > fuse > [ x2 cap > cmc > more caps > outlet ]   put as many of the [ ]'s that you want outlets in parrallel.

Salis Audio

Felix project
« Reply #14 on: 27 Feb 2006, 05:15 pm »
Quote from: JoshK
DOS,

Paul gave me a pair of CMCs to play with.  We haven't experimented with size (uH) to know what works best, or even what value caps work best.  It looks as though the Adept uses a plethora of varying sized caps. Who knows what size cmc they used.  We need to experiment, hence the word "project".  

Here is the schematic:  Mains in > fuse > [ x2 cap > cmc > more caps > outlet ]   put as many of the [ ]'s that you want outlets in parrallel.


Yeah... I just thought some CMC's for noise would be cool to through in my little box.

JoshK

Felix project
« Reply #15 on: 12 Jun 2006, 12:04 am »
I am starting to finally start thinking about doing this project.  I dread the listening tests though, as in the Audience Adept (AA hereafter), there are dozens of caps.  Nobody has the inside scoop on the size of the CMCs do they?

GBB

Felix project
« Reply #16 on: 12 Jun 2006, 03:36 am »
Quote from: JoshK
Nobody has the inside scoop on the size of the CMCs do they?


Josh,
Paul has inspired me to play with power conditioners too, so I've started assembling parts for an Audience Adept clone.  I was ordering parts for another project from Mouser so I picked up a few Triad CMCs.  The ones I got are part # 553-CMT908H4.  They are rated at 16mH and 2.6A RMS.  I figured that would be a good starting point.
I don't know if they're similar to Adept CMCs but they look nicely built.  They're potted which should be good for minimizing noise.  I'd previously used some Panasonic CMCs from Digikey and they buzzed when used on the AC line.  I'll let you know how things turn out.  

---Gary

JoshK

Felix project
« Reply #17 on: 12 Jun 2006, 01:36 pm »
Hey Gary,

Good to have you on board!  I have a couple of CMCs from a surplus center that I will try out and compare to my Felicia.  

By the way, I'd love to see what you did for your instrumentation output for the Art DI/O.  

Josh

TimS

  • Jr. Member
  • Posts: 52
Re: Felix project
« Reply #18 on: 9 Nov 2007, 12:13 am »
Thought I'd have go at power-conditioning using the Felix design as I constructed some Felicia's awhile ago and was very impressed with the results. I needed a bit of help constructing the Felicia and now have a few questions :scratch: (and hopefully not too dumb) re:the Felix.

There doesn't seem to be as much discussion on the right combination of caps and CMC as there was for the Felicia.  I wonder if many have experimented with different brands of X rated capacitors and/or CMC's for the best results or is the design good enough to use any quality brands.  Also, are the suggested values (C1, C4 = 0.47uF etc) the optimum values to use?

Finally, if I understand correctly the Felix doesn't offer balanced power like the Felicia but I have read that some may have tried a suitable transformer before the Felix.  Did this improve the performance much? 

cheers

Tim
« Last Edit: 9 Nov 2007, 01:03 am by TimS »

kyrill

Re: Felix project
« Reply #19 on: 26 Jan 2008, 05:00 pm »
DOS,

Paul gave me a pair of CMCs to play with.  We haven't experimented with size (uH) to know what works best, or even what value caps work best. It looks as though the Adept uses a plethora of varying sized caps. Who knows what size cmc they used.  We need to experiment, hence the word "project". 

Here is the schematic:  Mains in > fuse > [ x2 cap > cmc > more caps > outlet ]   put as many of the [ ]'s that you want outlets in parrallel.


Hi It has been sime time now. Is it still in this "project phase?