Topic: April 3rd meeting comments (Read 5742 times)

Carlman · « **on:** 4 Apr 2005, 03:02 AM »

Just wanted to start a new post to say thanks to everyone for showing up and participating in a nice, casual afternoon get-together.

The exceptional turnout was: Bruno, Vrao, Lensman (new!), HTDoc, Sheadlee, Claud, and myself.

The music we used was Damien Rice's 'Volcano', Tori Amos' 'Martha's Foolish Ginger'.

We compared the speakers first, upgraded vs. non-upgraded (Usher X-718's) and everyone agreed it was an improvement. The specific things I heard were better instrument and vocalist placement. Also, the bass was less 'wooly' or warm... or just cleaner. The highs were more extended but not harsh. Overall, a good investment. The nice thing about the mod is that it doesn't lose the sound I liked about the 718's but makes them better. I also think they need a wee bit more break-in....

Claud had to go early so he threw on a Patricia Barber album with (now his) Eastern Electric Phonostage... We listened to the stock tubes briefly and then he replaced them with his 'Groove Tubes' and a Tung-sol rectifier. I was floored. That phonostage is GREAT with those tubes... it's great with the stock tubes but it gets ALL CAPS GREAT with some tube rolling. As far as I'm concerned, that phonostage would be the last I'd ever need to buy.

Back to comparisons...

Next we compared digital sources, my $600 Audio PC, which has a Pentium 2.4G processor, cheap hard drive, M-Audio Delta DIO sound card, and 256M of RAM... This was compared to a $7,000 Bel Canto CD/SACD mulitplayer. (HTDoc can comment more about this player)

Well, the BC was better. It wasn't jaw-dropping better but it was more accurate and extended... however, now that I think about it... I should've used the same IC's for this comparison. My bad. The BC had Analysis Plus IC's and the Audio PC had Audience Conductor's.... both good cables but the Audience's can be a little less extended than others.

Anyway, I still think the PC has a more analog sound to it than this or any other cd player I've heard. Using the BC on the all-tube integrated was a better match to me.

Up to now we'd been using the DK VS1 MKII integrated amp. I have Amperex Gold Pins with 'PQ' in white on the tubes. They're US-made. I switched to the EE M520 and the type of sound changed to a nice tubey sound but not overly so. The EE 520 is the best balance of the best in tubes, some SS authority, and a pleasurable listening experience I've ever heard. I don't know how others reacted but I thought it was a step up from the DK. However, I think it's a preference to most people.... it's still tubes vs. SS. The DK can't be made to sound like the EE and vice-versa.

That was about all we compared... Things wound down earlier than I'd expected so we hung around talking for a while.

Sheadlee should have some photos soon and I may post a few as well... but it'll be tomorrow night at the earliest.

Thanks again to everyone for a great afternoon!!!

-Carl

claud · « **Reply #1 on:** 4 Apr 2005, 12:47 PM »

Thanks to Carl and his delightful wife for a great afternoon of audio fun. They even fed the hungry hord of audiofools. I did not get to hear the Minimax integrated, but Carl just got it and it isn't that broken in yet. The DK continues to amaze me. Very good sound , but they need to loose the funky meter. The most amazing thing I heard the whole day, other than the modded speakers was Carl's hand built audio PC. I have the same Torri Amos CD, and she never sounded better. Not only do I also think Carl got his money's worth on the modded speakers, but I predict we will hear from Carl within the next three months wanting us to listen to them again. IMHO they will get much better as those new caps breakin some more.

sheadlee · « **Reply #2 on:** 4 Apr 2005, 03:53 PM »

I agree! Thanks to Carl for opening his home and letting us enjoy his audio system.

His DK integrated and modded Usher 718's sounded very good, indeed.
Also, his audio PC sounded remarkably good, although Shane's $6K Bel Canto universal player did best it. For the difference in price...Carl's pc was an audio bargain.

I did take a few pictures, and will try to post them later this evening.

Thanks again, it was great to see you guys again.

Hantra · « **Reply #3 on:** 4 Apr 2005, 05:49 PM »

I hate I missed it. Sounds like you all had a good time!

Glad to hear the Ushers turned out well.

sheadlee · « **Reply #4 on:** 5 Apr 2005, 02:43 AM »

http://www.audiocircle.com/circles/modules.php?op=modload&name=gallery&file=index&include=albums.php&set_albumListPage=38

Yes...I'm the dumbass...I couldn't figure out how to add pictures to the post...so you can go to the above gallery link and open the gallery.

If someone wants to educate a technically challenged individual, then please feel free to jump in...I'd appreciate the help.

BrunoB · « **Reply #5 on:** 5 Apr 2005, 10:12 PM »

This was a nice and fun meeting. It was nice to see you guys again and to meet some new faces.

I did not like the sound of the Usher's much, I guess this would be true for all speakers with dynamic drivers: guitars, percussion and hand clapping did not sound life like. I prefer speakers with more resolution and better microdynamics (I have ribbons at home).

I was surprised that I could discern such a difference of sound between the PC as a digital source and the $6K Belcanto CD player, even from my standing off axis listening position.

Carl's audio PC is very silent. It seems that it is very convenient: a few mouse clicks and the music starts. Also, when a visitor comes with a CD with some nice music, it takes only a few minutes to transfert the music to the hard drive

Thanks again to Carl for organizing this meeting.

Bruno

Marbles · « **Reply #6 on:** 5 Apr 2005, 10:14 PM »

Sheadlee, hit the quote button to see how I did this...

Carlman · « **Reply #7 on:** 7 Apr 2005, 07:37 PM »

Here's another shot I came across when we had a surprise visitor drop by after everyone had already left... It also really shows how big the Usher's really are...

Or at least, that's how big I think they sound...

Hantra · « **Reply #8 on:** 7 Apr 2005, 07:45 PM »

Well at least he didn't sit the beer ON the speaker.

When I had the electricians in finishing up my dedicated lines, the guy wanted me to sign the work order, and he put it on top of my speaker and was about to write with a ballpoint.

All of a sudden it was like a dream where you try and scream, but can't. I thought I was going to pass out!

hometheaterdoc · « **Reply #9 on:** 7 Apr 2005, 08:51 PM »

I had a blast... but then I always do at these events...

I've held off on commenting on the sound of everything at the meet because virtually everything that was compared and listened to I actually sell

I don't know how to share my opinions without it sounding like an advertisement. i don't want people to think that. In person, it's easier to see that I'm an opinionated SOB who doesn't care whether I sell the product or not. If I think it sounds like crap I say so.....

Anyways, with that in mind:

99 times out of 100 I would take the upgraded X-718s over stock. The stock X-718s were a little more relaxed in a couple areas... which I liked. But it was readily apparent that the upgraded parts in the modded X-718s took resolution, imaging, soundstage placement, and bass detail to a new level. I would have preferred to tube roll with the DK Design integrated with the modded X-718s as the tubes used were too neutral for the upgraded X-718s.... some good Mullards would have been perfect

A correction: The Bel Canto Player PL-1A is now $7,500.00 MSRP in stock form. They no longer have a seperate Player PL-1 and PL-1A (the PL-1 without all the video processing options). You now buy a base PL-1A and add whatever video options you want. In my case, I added SDI video output (a $1200 MSRP option). So the Player you heard was $8700 in its current configuration. Not exactly an inexpensive piece

, but it is a universal player that does even better with DVD-A and SACD than it does with redbook CD..... not to mention it smokes everything I've put up against it video wise

So when all that is factored in, it provides a bit of perspective on the asking price. If it was my hard earned cash as a consumer, I would buy it retail based on the video performance alone. If you don't need the SACD, DVD-A and high end redbook capability, there are other choices out there where your cash can be spent more appropriately.

I really liked the M520 integrated from Eastern Electric. It had pretty darn good extension in both directions (although the bass end was difficult to judge given the bookshelf speakers being used). It wasn't nearly as tubey sounding as I was expecting. I'd like to tube roll a bit with it more if time had permitted.... a great little product they've got there. Very recommended for someone looking for that kind of sound!!

I did find the audio PC to be far more thin sounding than the Bel Canto player... the Player added quite a bit of body and weight that I think was missing with the PC....but it was only after playing both back to back that it became apparent... if I didn't have the player along with me for comparison, I could be quite happy with Carl's audio PC for a lot of listening... I'm very curious to try it out on a bigger system in a bigger room to see if the subtle details come out more. I like Carl's room a lot, but it isn't the biggest thing in the world... so the soundstage, etc. is limited by the size of the room not necessarily by the quality of his gear.

Carl, how about you bring the PC along to the next meet at my place and we'll compare them again? I'd like to see if we can discern more of a difference....

that's about it on this end... I enjoyed the food and the chance to see everyone. Let's do it again soon. I'm dying to get my VR-4SR speakers in and start breaking them in... I'll let you know when they arrive....

Carlman · « **Reply #10 on:** 7 Apr 2005, 09:11 PM »

What's unfortunate is that Claud brought some tubes that I didn't roll until after the meet... He left me some Telefunkens and Siemens CCa's. The Tele's are a little more forward in the midrange and have nice bass. However, the Siemens are tubey and evenly present all of the frequency range. They added some depth and texture that the Amperex's just didn't have.

I felt really bad after hearing them... knowing the whole time everyone was here they were sitting in a box, waiting to play.... we had time for some tube rolling... I just kept kicking myself (while my jaw was open and I was glued to my seat for an hour).

As to the bass on the 718's, I pretty much agree but would go on to say... I think there was more bass on the stock ones but not necessarily 'better'... it's a little warm and wooly stock form. For the most part, I like the cleaner bass because it's not over-pronounced like it often was stock. However, I would sometimes like the warmer bass on some tracks... even if it is less 'correct'..

Another thing I'd like to hear is a little less tweeter.. I still think they could go down another db. But, maybe after some break-in they'll relax a little... we'll see... I'm not holding my breath.

As to the digital comparison, the BC wins. But, it still had a digital sound to it that the PC doesn't. I will definitely bring it to your place but what would be super-nice is if you had a sub-1,k DAC lying around to use. I'll be the comparison will be a lot more interesting in that situation.... rather than a $250 soundcard's cheap DAC and RCA outputs.

BTW, you can say anything you want in this circle as an NC member... Posting in a sub-circle with maybe a dozen locals, I don't think anyone is going to have a problem with anything you say here... or if they do, they'll tell you. No big deal. In fact, I'd rather you not hold back.

It's only when dealers reply in the main circles that they sell a product that solves a person's system question that gets annoying... and moved.

Glad you had a blast. I'm looking forward to the next meeting.

-Carl

claud · « **Reply #11 on:** 7 Apr 2005, 10:31 PM »

Yea Shane, just blurt it on out. Some of us don't think of you as a dealer, just a kid with his own candy store. As such, your opinion counts somewhat more since you have access to more and better audio toys.
Now, if you were just ISF certified, I'd hire you (yes for real $$$) to tune my RPTV. I'd rather pay my friends than strangers.

lonewolfny42 · « **Reply #12 on:** 8 Apr 2005, 07:30 AM »

Quote from: Carlman

Here's another shot I came across when we had a surprise visitor drop by after everyone had already left... It also really shows how big the Usher's really are... Or at least, that's how big I think they sound...

Sorry I arrived late...but the modded Usher's sounded great (and they were big

)....nice system Carl ....Thanks !!!

BrunoB · « **Reply #13 on:** 10 Apr 2005, 03:58 PM »

When listening to the Uhser's, I had the impression that vocals did not sound natural. I had a discussion with Rob (Lemmens) after the meeting and we both had the same impression.

Why do you guys think about the vocal reproduction of these Usher's? Carl and many of you like the speakers and I wonder if the songs that I have heard were too much processed?

Bruno

Daniel · « **Reply #14 on:** 10 Apr 2005, 06:33 PM »

Quote from: Carlman

Here's another shot I came across when we had a surprise visitor drop by after everyone had already left... It also really shows how big the Usher's really are... Or at least, that's how big I think they sound...

NYAC Audio Rave's "The Ruler"(tm) has inspired many imitations but none can match our proprietary design for speaker measurement. Carlman, you're a great DIY-er but its clear to me just from the photograph that your speaker sizing device comes up a little *short*.

Carlman · « **Reply #15 on:** 10 Apr 2005, 08:32 PM »

Quote from: BrunoB

When listening to the Uhser's, I had the impression that vocals did not sound natural. I had a discussion with Rob (Lemmens) after the meeting and we both had the same impression.

Why do you guys think about the vocal reproduction of these Usher's? Carl and many of you like the speakers and I wonder if the songs that I have heard were too much processed?

Bruno

It could've very easily been the recordings.. without using something you're familiar with, there's no way to really know.

That said, I think the vocals might have been compromised by the over-attenuated highs/tweeter. To me, the Usher's provide a compromise of things I like... The bass is its strongest asset and one thing I really enjoy in music. Guitar, piano, and various acoustic instruments sound quite good to me... and the vocals sound good enough to me not to be annoyed... but don't give me the 'you are there' experience like others have... but the others didn't have all the benefits of the Ushers...

The Usher's rock when I want to rock, they do jazz well, and most of the stuff I listen to... which is most things except classical, country, or opera..

It's tough to find a pair of speakers that give the big bass, great imaging AND midrange palpability where vocals are 'there' in your room for around 1-2,k... The Usher's have been the best overall I've heard so far.

-C

Hantra · « **Reply #16 on:** 10 Apr 2005, 09:04 PM »

Quote from: Carlman

It's tough to find a pair of speakers that give the big bass, great imaging AND midrange palpability where vocals are 'there' in your room for around 1-2,k... ...

Agreed.

Al Garay · « **Reply #17 on:** 11 Apr 2005, 07:52 AM »

I have a few that might meet the criteria for less than $2k -
* Dennis Murphy MBOW1 or CAOW1 3-way ... even with a custom cabinet builder, these would cost under $1k
* Ellis 1801b
* BESL Series 2 MTM + XLS subs would be under $2k would play the loudest without compression and allows you an upgrade path to go fully active or even upgrade the drivers to the Series 5 with the same cabinets.
* Eton 11.2 3-way with cabinets would be under $2k performs similar to Avalon Ascent, incredible balance

claud · « **Reply #18 on:** 11 Apr 2005, 01:21 PM »

I thought the Ushers, modded and not, sounded good. They had nicer bass and were smoother and more refined than the VS VR-1s I have been listening to for over a month. I don't know how they would compare to my Merlin TSM-Ms since it has been a while since I sent them to Merlin for the "magic mod". I hope at some point to have Carl bring the modded Ushers over to A/B with the Merlins.

Carlman · « **Reply #19 on:** 11 Apr 2005, 01:29 PM »

Al-
I'm not a speaker builder and once I add the cost of my time to go through the learning curve of becoming one, home-made speakers will likely cost a lot more than 2,k. Plus, what if I don't like the way they sound? Now I'm out the time AND cost... and of course, no one will pay a penny over my cost minus depreciation on those parts if I sold them used. (forget time/labor cost, that's all lost) So, to me there's no value in going this route but I'm always happy to hear what others have built.

It's easy to suggest this kind of thing if you've done it and/or are proficient at it... I've heard a few DIY speakers but so far none have provided the level of satisfaction I get from the Usher's (especially modified).

Claud,
I'd be happy to bring the Usher's over when you've got your Merlin's 'dialed in' and are ready for an A/B. I'll bring the DK, the EE, or whatever. Just let me know.

-C

Author Topic: April 3rd meeting comments (Read 5742 times)