DAC that will kill $6000 commercial DAC's for under $500

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bavmike

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Re: DAC that will kill $6000 commercial DAC's for under $500
« Reply #300 on: 20 Mar 2018, 11:16 pm »
Lol, I hope you are not referring to me here  :lol:

I am still amazed at how awesome the Purestream dac is, and the ability to completely change the sound in software. Its the first time I have fallen off the constant dac upgrade cycle.
I had a guy randomly message me from another country on headfi the other day, offering to buy my superstream-purestream combo. It is developing a bit of a cult like following with only 25 sets in the wild.

Be interested to hear how this new dac performs and what the new GUI is like. If it can compete with your past offerings that will be amazing. I definitely want in.

Ha ha! I always thought you were a young man! :)

Anyways the old fart comment was one of the myth’s. You’re only an old fart if you think you are. Anyone who embraces modern Audio certainly isn’t an old fart!

bavmike

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Re: DAC that will kill $6000 commercial DAC's for under $500
« Reply #301 on: 20 Mar 2018, 11:17 pm »
btw - is this you? :lol:



The tubes must be burning out! :)

tubesguy2

Re: DAC that will kill $6000 commercial DAC's for under $500
« Reply #302 on: 21 Mar 2018, 01:26 pm »
What makes me most excited about this DAC is the long list of myths it will bust. Such as:

- You need an analog preamp for the best sound

- You need an LPS for the best sound

- DSD 512 is better than DSD 256


Hmm, if you are establishing a system where you do convert everything to a DSD format, and if you posit a situation where you have adequate processing power from the computer that is serving the music to the DAC to do 512, why wouldn't 512 be better than 256?

bavmike

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Re: DAC that will kill $6000 commercial DAC's for under $500
« Reply #303 on: 21 Mar 2018, 03:24 pm »
Hmm, if you are establishing a system where you do convert everything to a DSD format, and if you posit a situation where you have adequate processing power from the computer that is serving the music to the DAC to do 512, why wouldn't 512 be better than 256?

No this is a myth. The reason why is you need to use clocks that are twice the frequency to support DSD 512 vs 256. Phase noise and jitter goes up with frequency. Have a look at this for an example:




For DSD 512 support we need to use a 45.158Mhz clock. For DSD 256 we use a 22.579Mhz clock. The 10hz phase noise of the 22.579Mhz clock is a full 6dB better than the 45.158. And 8dB better down at 1Mhz from the carrier frequency. That's 4x less jitter where it matters at 10hz and, over 6x less jitter at 1Mhz from the carrier frequency! Not only that for some reason 45.158Mhz clocks have very poor consistency. It's very hard to find clocks at that frequency that actually meet the advertised specs vs the 22.579Mhz units.

Besides the only reason we upsample higher is to take the out of band noise further out of band. All DAC's available today that support DSD512 also support all of the DSD frequencies, and most also PCM. In order to support all of these frequencies, the analog filter needs to be a general purpose filter usually set at under 100Khz. It needs to be to support DSD 64. With my design it's set to only support DSD 256. And the filter is set way up at 180Khz. By purpose building the DAC optimized for only DSD 256, this results in even lower out of band noise up at higher frequencies than all DAC's that support 512. And you get to enjoy the drastic benefits that 6dB-8dB lower phase noise provides.

Great article on why phase noise is so important:

https://www.by-rutgers.nl/PDFiles/Audio%20Jitter.pdf

monte

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Re: DAC that will kill $6000 commercial DAC's for under $500
« Reply #304 on: 21 Mar 2018, 03:42 pm »
Do you use the Dac in combination with the avr?

bavmike

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Re: DAC that will kill $6000 commercial DAC's for under $500
« Reply #305 on: 21 Mar 2018, 03:44 pm »
Do you use the Dac in combination with the avr?

The best way to use this DAC is direct to the amp and use a software 64 bit floating point digital volume control running on a computer.

monte

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Re: DAC that will kill $6000 commercial DAC's for under $500
« Reply #306 on: 21 Mar 2018, 03:51 pm »
Must not need one because I don’t know what you’re talking about. Thanks

bavmike

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Re: DAC that will kill $6000 commercial DAC's for under $500
« Reply #307 on: 21 Mar 2018, 03:56 pm »
I forgot to mention a very important benefit to this design. The phase shift. When your analog filter is set to under 100Khz, you end up getting some phase shift into the audible band. Not the case when the filter is set way up at 180Khz. Huge improvements in high frequency soundstage. Also by only supporting 1 clock frequency, the whole clocking scheme can be massively optimized. In all other DAC's besides my Purestream, depending on the sample rate of what you're listening to, the bit clock needs to be generated by the USB interface. In order to do this it must either run through a prescaler, or clock generator. No matter how good your clock is, after running though either a prescaler or clock generator, this clock is no longer good. In my design the bit clock is generated from the actual falling edge of the clock. Directly off the clock pin itself. This results in far lower actual jitter on the bit clock than doing it any other way. And by only using 1 clock instead of 2, we also avoid having to use jitter adding logic gates to direct traffic between multiple clocks.

bavmike

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Re: DAC that will kill $6000 commercial DAC's for under $500
« Reply #308 on: 21 Mar 2018, 03:59 pm »
Must not need one because I don’t know what you’re talking about. Thanks

Utilizing this DAC in the best way is far less complicated than you think.

1: Plug in DAC to amp
2: Plug USB cable into computer based server or streamer
3: Use the media player software to playback music
4: Use either the volume control in the media player, or my volume control on any mobile device to control volume.

No AVR in the mix. That will only drastically degrade the sound quality.


monte

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Re: DAC that will kill $6000 commercial DAC's for under $500
« Reply #309 on: 21 Mar 2018, 04:05 pm »
Is this for music only?

bavmike

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Re: DAC that will kill $6000 commercial DAC's for under $500
« Reply #310 on: 21 Mar 2018, 04:11 pm »
Is this for music only?

Well you could use it for video if you're playing video in your media player. The DAC can be plugged into any computer and any media player such as Jriver can send audio to it. But no this is not a home theater DAC. It's designed for ultra high resolution 2 channel music.

I think what I'm going to do is talk to Kimmo from Daphile about integrating my DSP engine into Daphile. This will be a incredible companion to this DAC. In that case it will be music only.

maty

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Re: DAC that will kill $6000 commercial DAC's for under $500
« Reply #311 on: 21 Mar 2018, 04:19 pm »
I do not know why but I just remembered the CD/SACD player Marantz SA-10 when it works like a DAC. Only $6,999 in Amazon.com

http://www.us.marantz.com/us/Products/Pages/ProductDetails.aspx?CatId=ReferenceSeries&ProductId=SA10

Marantz Musical Mastering: MMM-Stream and MMM-Conversion

Quote
The MMM-Stream section of the process replaces the oversampling filters normally used in digital to analog conversion, and allows the implementation of the Marantz Musical Mastering filtering. These filters - one providing a slow roll-off and very short impulse response, the other offering the option of a medium roll-off with short pre-ringing and longer post-ringing - are essentially the same as those found in the Marantz SA-11 disc player and NA-11 network music player, but here they're implemented at a much higher oversampling rate, thanks to that upconversion to DSD11.2.

...In addition, all of this conversion is now done in Digital Signal Processing with 32-bit floating-point precision, rather than the 24-bit integer method used in such systems in the past.

Combining this with the reduction to a 1-bit signal straight after the oversampling filter and Sigma Delta Modulation allows a pure DSD-standard signal to be passed to the conversion section in the form of a very high-frequency stream of pulses, requiring only a very high-quality low-pass filter to remove all the superfluous high frequencies and pass the purest possible audio to the player's output stage...

Only $6,999 in Amazon.com


By the way, very few SACD published take advantage of the technological advantage of the support. And mastered in DSD without further PCM manipulation in the studio very very few.

bavmike

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Re: DAC that will kill $6000 commercial DAC's for under $500
« Reply #312 on: 21 Mar 2018, 04:28 pm »
I do not know why but I just remembered the CD/SACD player Marantz SA-10 when it works like a DAC. Only $6,999 in Amazon.com

http://www.us.marantz.com/us/Products/Pages/ProductDetails.aspx?CatId=ReferenceSeries&ProductId=SA10

Marantz Musical Mastering: MMM-Stream and MMM-Conversion

Only $6,999 in Amazon.com


By the way, very few SACD published take advantage of the technological advantage of the support. And mastered in DSD without further PCM manipulation in the studio very very few.

With my DAC I don't worry about the original format. Because as long as the studio did a great job it doesn't matter. My DAC will get the best from any format. For me the performance with Redbook is most important. Because this is what all the lossless streaming services such as Tidal use. And this is where this design really shines. Making Redbook sound incredible. But of course very well mastered DSD is stunning. Especially DSD 256 as it can be passed through untouched.

maty

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Re: DAC that will kill $6000 commercial DAC's for under $500
« Reply #313 on: 21 Mar 2018, 04:35 pm »
If the new master is direct make in DSD the sound is the best. How many masters with these characteristics are there in the market? SACD or digital. Very very few.

Digital music, many are upsamplings from CDs 16/44 and not from analog or digital masters.

How can those digital files or SACD sound worse than original vinyls? It is a shame.

The quick benefit is put before the job well done, wasting a better technology.

barrows

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Re: DAC that will kill $6000 commercial DAC's for under $500
« Reply #314 on: 21 Mar 2018, 04:39 pm »
Actually there is lots of classical music available in DSD.  And most of the recent stuff is direct dSD recordings with very little messing with...  And then of course there are DSD releases of analog recordings of things like some classic rock titles, direct to DSD from an analog tape master.

bavmike

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Re: DAC that will kill $6000 commercial DAC's for under $500
« Reply #315 on: 21 Mar 2018, 04:40 pm »
If the new master is direct make in DSD the sound is the best. How many masters with these characteristics are there in the market? SACD or digital. Very very few.

Digital music, many are upsamplings from CDs 16/44 and not from analog or digital masters.

How can those digital files or SACD sound worse than original vinyls? It is a shame.

The quick benefit is put before the job well done, wasting a better technology.

I don't worry about what they do in the studio. I worry more about the end result. With the latest excellent DAW workstations such as Merging Pyramix, DSD can be edited transparently. However some of the very early mastered for SACD albums were highly compromised.

brj

Re: DAC that will kill $6000 commercial DAC's for under $500
« Reply #316 on: 21 Mar 2018, 04:44 pm »
Quote from: bavmike
Yes Roon ROCK is great. However I'm not going to be able to get the Roon team to add my DSP engine to ROCK. So you'll need to use their DSP engine, and no volume control.

Why not make your DSP stand-alone with an exposed API that Roon can access, much like what HQPlayer has implemented?  This should also have the benefit of making it accessible to all sorts of other audio library management apps.

(Says the guy that still needs to find time to compare the native Roon DSP against HQP...)

barrows

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Re: DAC that will kill $6000 commercial DAC's for under $500
« Reply #317 on: 21 Mar 2018, 04:45 pm »
And, as you point out, with a DAC optimized for DSD, and good oversampling to DSD in SW, the results from RBCD can be excellent as well.  I am doing this into an ESS 9038 based DAC (highly optimized) and the results are fantastic.  Nice to be able to control volume via ESS as well (it is essentially DSD wide, as it never reduces the incoming DSD rate, just ups the bit depth).

orientalexpress

Re: DAC that will kill $6000 commercial DAC's for under $500
« Reply #318 on: 21 Mar 2018, 04:46 pm »
Does this media player able to play ISO files?


bavmike

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Re: DAC that will kill $6000 commercial DAC's for under $500
« Reply #319 on: 21 Mar 2018, 05:13 pm »
I suppose I should respond to your API suggestion. We are going beyond that by making the DSP engine a virtual sound card that all of the audio on the PC can be sent to. No need for an API. No need to rely on 3rd parties to integrate. Send youtube or Netflix running on your browser through the DSP engine no problem.