Massive Intel Chip Flaw

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Jon L

Massive Intel Chip Flaw
« on: 3 Jan 2018, 05:37 am »
Which will force Windows and Linux kernel redesign, which is expected to cause 5-30% Slowdown for all Intel chips made in last 10 years.. If not fixed at OS software level, huge security risk looms.  Potential effect on music servers and audio quality?

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2018/01/02/intel_cpu_design_flaw/

jpm

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Re: Massive Intel Chip Flaw
« Reply #1 on: 3 Jan 2018, 07:19 am »
... anything that runs on an Intel proc by the sound of it, not just Linux & Win.

randytsuch

Re: Massive Intel Chip Flaw
« Reply #2 on: 3 Jan 2018, 05:11 pm »
Looks like the next windows patches will make the processor do more work, it will have to swap memory spaces a lot more to protect memory.
Can't be good for playback  :(

On a dedicated music PC, older linux versions may be the way to go.

As an aside, I did try wtfplay before but it didn't run on my pc at the time.  I have upgraded processors since then, so will have to try again and see if it works now.

Jon L

Re: Massive Intel Chip Flaw
« Reply #3 on: 3 Jan 2018, 06:14 pm »
... anything that runs on an Intel proc by the sound of it, not just Linux & Win.

Oh, yeah.  Forgot about all those Mac's with Intel chips..

jpm

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Re: Massive Intel Chip Flaw
« Reply #4 on: 3 Jan 2018, 07:18 pm »
Oh, yeah.  Forgot about all those Mac's with Intel chips..

... and probably plenty of appliances as well, like my Synology NAS  :(  Hard to know the full extent at this point, but I'm assuming anything with a modern Intel chip that connects to the internet will be a "must patch".  Time to buy stock in AMD?

DaveC113

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Re: Massive Intel Chip Flaw
« Reply #5 on: 3 Jan 2018, 07:29 pm »
... and probably plenty of appliances as well, like my Synology NAS  :(  Hard to know the full extent at this point, but I'm assuming anything with a modern Intel chip that connects to the internet will be a "must patch".  Time to buy stock in AMD?

I just bought a i7 laptop I may return over this as I haven't opened the box yet, but the fix will be software based so it's possible AMD owners will be screwed over this too despite the fact their chips don't need the same security update. Whether I return the laptop for an AMD based one may be determined by this issue...


jpm

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Re: Massive Intel Chip Flaw
« Reply #6 on: 3 Jan 2018, 08:15 pm »
the fix will be software based so it's possible AMD owners will be screwed over this too

We can only wait and see, but I'd hope that this would be more like Intel Chipset drivers as opposed to an entire kernel revision.

Folsom

Re: Massive Intel Chip Flaw
« Reply #7 on: 3 Jan 2018, 08:36 pm »
Intel's game plan to make everyone buy a new computer?

GentleBender

Re: Massive Intel Chip Flaw
« Reply #8 on: 3 Jan 2018, 08:38 pm »
At this point it looks to only affect Intel processors. I'm hoping they can come up with better solutions in time. This could really hurt many businesses and the business models of cloud computing vendors and many more. This is a quote from the article.

"AMD processors are not subject to the types of attacks that the kernel page table isolation feature protects against. The AMD microarchitecture does not allow memory references, including speculative references, that access higher privileged data when running in a lesser privileged mode when that access would result in a page fault.

A key word here is "speculative." Modern processors, like Intel's, perform speculative execution. In order to keep their internal pipelines primed with instructions to obey, the CPU cores try their best to guess what code is going to be run next, fetch it, and execute it.

It appears, from what AMD software engineer Tom Lendacky was suggesting above, that Intel's CPUs speculatively execute code potentially without performing security checks. It seems it may be possible to craft software in such a way that the processor starts executing an instruction that would normally be blocked – such as reading kernel memory from user mode – and completes that instruction before the privilege level check occurs.

That would allow ring-3-level user code to read ring-0-level kernel data. And that is not good."

And an update on the same article:
"Finally, macOS has been patched to counter the chip design blunder since version 10.13.2, according to operating system kernel expert Alex Ionescu. And it appears 64-bit ARM Linux kernels will also get a set of KAISER patches, completely splitting the kernel and user spaces, to block attempts to defeat KASLR. "

GentleBender

Re: Massive Intel Chip Flaw
« Reply #9 on: 3 Jan 2018, 08:39 pm »
Intel's game plan to make everyone buy a new computer?
But Apple beat them to that game! :duh:

randytsuch

Re: Massive Intel Chip Flaw
« Reply #10 on: 3 Jan 2018, 08:42 pm »
Another article on it
http://www.zdnet.com/article/tech-giants-scramble-to-fix-intel-processor-security-flaw/?loc=newsletter_large_thumb_related&ftag=TREc64629f&bhid=21530310720912044570301981917427

Says Apple has already fixed, but maybe only if you're running the latest os.

I would hope the patch is smart enough to figure out if its intel or amd processor, and only run for intel.

I wonder if this would be exploited against a home user, versus going after companies and servers?
I'm sure we will be hearing more about this in the coming weeks/months.

Made me remember the intel math problem  :lol:

And I did like this acronym
Forcefully Unmap Complete Kernel With Interrupt Trampolines

Elizabeth

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Re: Massive Intel Chip Flaw
« Reply #11 on: 3 Jan 2018, 10:42 pm »
Good news for AMD stockholders!
I personally doubt anyone will gain from stealing my computer data.

I used to use AMD for my home built desktops.. But for laptops I just buy whatever..

jpm

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Re: Massive Intel Chip Flaw
« Reply #12 on: 3 Jan 2018, 11:03 pm »
Apple slows down iPhones (to conceal a hardware design flaw many believe), Intel indirectly slows down their processors as the result of a design flaw, Cox (AZ ... you're probably next) adds $50 a month to your internet bill if you want to keep unlimited data, airlines are ever more creative in finding ways to nickel & dime you on your travels ... I'm sure we're in for a lot more of this craptastic fun this year.

richidoo

Re: Massive Intel Chip Flaw
« Reply #13 on: 3 Jan 2018, 11:13 pm »
imo NSA at play. Lots of secrets popping these days.

My high school son is building his first serious gaming machine. He wanted i7 but I advised him to go Rizen 7 for better value. Luckily he finally took my advice for once!  :lol:  I hope the Windows security patches will not affect AMD performance.

WGH

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Re: Massive Intel Chip Flaw
« Reply #14 on: 4 Jan 2018, 12:39 am »
I just bought a i7 laptop I may return over this as I haven't opened the box yet.....Whether I return the laptop for an AMD based one may be determined by this issue...

My preliminary understanding is the patch will plug the security hole with a drop in performance.
Exchanging the laptop for an AMD will get you the drop in performance without needing the security update.

https://www.pcworld.idg.com.au/article/615216/which-processor-best-intel-amd/

I have built many computers with AMD processors since 2001 starting with an AMD 1.2 Khz processor and an Abit KT7-A motherboard. They were all fine but my current i7 box is much, much nicer.

jpm

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Re: Massive Intel Chip Flaw
« Reply #15 on: 4 Jan 2018, 12:56 am »
Bad news. There are reports that the flaw (or some aspects) are present in AMD and ARM chips too

https://9to5mac.com/2018/01/03/mac-fix-for-intel-kernel-bug/

"The inaccuracy Intel seemingly refers to is that AMD and ARM were not originally reported as suffering from the same security hole."

randytsuch

Re: Massive Intel Chip Flaw
« Reply #16 on: 4 Jan 2018, 12:56 am »
https://newsroom.intel.com/news/intel-responds-to-security-research-findings/

Intel in damage control mode

My favorite part
Based on the analysis to date, many types of computing devices — with many different vendors’ processors and operating systems — are susceptible to these exploits.

BTW, ARM has admitted they have the problem, but AMD has said they are fine.

bobbyhamil

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Re: Massive Intel Chip Flaw
« Reply #17 on: 4 Jan 2018, 02:44 am »
you are in good hands with Intel.......believe that and i got a bridge in Brooklyn to sell you.

Doublej

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Re: Massive Intel Chip Flaw
« Reply #18 on: 4 Jan 2018, 02:56 am »
W10 patch is out so you can do your own before and after listening tests...

JohnR

Re: Massive Intel Chip Flaw
« Reply #19 on: 4 Jan 2018, 05:11 am »
Re Macs, a securtity update released 6th Dec appears to address this issue:

https://support.apple.com/en-au/HT208331