OB Speakers and the Cardas Rule

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gregfisk

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OB Speakers and the Cardas Rule
« on: 7 Dec 2017, 10:54 pm »
Hi All,

I have been more or less using the Cardas rule for my 19' x 30' x 10' room since I set it up a couple of years ago.

After revisiting the website I was reminded that when you measure for box speakers you measure from the wall behind the speakers and the side walls to get your speaker locations.

When you are measuring for OB speakers you measure from the wall behind the speakers and the ceiling to get your speaker locations.

I pretty much understand why this is done because of the interaction of OB with the side walls. What I found interesting is that in my case the distance for box speakers from the wall behind the speakers is 8.49 feet. The distance to the wall behind the speakers with my OB Super V's is supposed to be 6.18 feet. My understanding is that with OB speakers the more distance from the wall behind the speakers the better. The Cardas rule dictates something else.

Does anyone have any in site on this? And what do you do to determine the right distance from the walls and ceiling in your room?

Here is a link to the calculator that Cardas supplies.  http://www.cardas.com/room_setup_calculators.php

Take Care,

Greg

Early B.

Re: OB Speakers and the Cardas Rule
« Reply #1 on: 8 Dec 2017, 12:18 am »
I use a combination of common sense, practicality and my own ears.

First, I take into consideration the room limitations. In my case, the room is the den which is shared by family and guests, so moving speakers too far into the room isn't practical. There's also a myriad of factors such as furniture, wife acceptance, aesthetics, overall room size, making sure speakers don't block the TV, etc. that affect proper speaker placement.     

In my experience, it can take weeks or months to get the right speaker setup, and even an inch or two can make a noticeable difference. And to make things more complicated, speaker placement can change with any component or cable upgrade.

 

Captainhemo

Re: OB Speakers and the Cardas Rule
« Reply #2 on: 8 Dec 2017, 05:39 am »
Hey Greg, good to "see"  you . 
I'm not a big fan of   rules...   I find they can get you  started   but don't be afraid  to   experiment and  move things around.   You  just don't  know  what you're gonna end up with  as   rooms , and everything in  the rooms  makes a  difference

jay

gregfisk

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Re: OB Speakers and the Cardas Rule
« Reply #3 on: 8 Dec 2017, 07:14 pm »
Thanks Early and Jay, I appreciate the input.

I was hoping someone had experience with the Cardas rule but all other input in certainly welcome. My room is dedicated so I don't have the typical obstacles that many have trying to fit a system into an established space. I have a lot of flexability in regards to placement of the speakers and my seating position.

Has anyone tried OB 6' from the front wall behind the speakers and then 8'? Like I mentioned this is the difference in my room between measuring from the front wall and from the ceiling using the Cardas rule. And, does anyone know why with OB you use the ceiling and not the front wall to measure from?

I'm with you Jay, rules are meant to be broken. I'm just trying to understand why the Cardas rule is what it is and if there are other ideas to use as a guide to getting it right?

mlundy57

Re: OB Speakers and the Cardas Rule
« Reply #4 on: 8 Dec 2017, 07:34 pm »
Greg,

I have found both the Wedgies and the NX-Otica MTMs to sound best 5-6ft off the front wall and 8ft apart when seated 10ft from the speakers.

Mike

Wind Chaser

Re: OB Speakers and the Cardas Rule
« Reply #5 on: 8 Dec 2017, 08:40 pm »
My room is dedicated so I don't have the typical obstacles that many have trying to fit a system into an established space. I have a lot of flexability in regards to placement of the speakers and my seating position.

Perfect! You have a fantastic room with amazing potential. I have no interest in the Cardas rule book, I do everything by ear so here's a basic idea of where I'd begin (regardless of the speakers). I would keep the speakers at least 5 away from any given wall. That should leave you with enough room to separate your speakers with about 17'-18' in between. That distance relative to the distance you sit back (about 12'-13') from each speaker will create a large / realistic soundstage which in turn will open the door to second to none imaging.

I've drawn it out to scale as best as I can, so hopefully this will give you a better idea as to what I mean...






Early B.

Re: OB Speakers and the Cardas Rule
« Reply #6 on: 8 Dec 2017, 09:40 pm »
I would keep the speakers at least 5 away from any given wall. That should leave you with enough room to separate your speakers with about 17'-18' in between. That distance relative to the distance you sit back (about 12'-13') from each speaker will create a large / realistic soundstage which in turn will open the door to second to none imaging.

Wow. You must have a very large room to do that. Most of us aren't so fortunate.


gregfisk

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Re: OB Speakers and the Cardas Rule
« Reply #7 on: 9 Dec 2017, 03:57 am »
Perfect! You have a fantastic room with amazing potential. I have no interest in the Cardas rule book, I do everything by ear so here's a basic idea of where I'd begin (regardless of the speakers). I would keep the speakers at least 5 away from any given wall. That should leave you with enough room to separate your speakers with about 17'-18' in between. That distance relative to the distance you sit back (about 12'-13') from each speaker will create a large / realistic soundstage which in turn will open the door to second to none imaging.

I've drawn it out to scale as best as I can, so hopefully this will give you a better idea as to what I mean...




Hey WC,

 Thanks for the input. My Room runs the other direction thou so my speakers are on the short wall. 19' wide by 30' feet long with nothing really to mess with the speakers. My rack is on the side wall next to my couch which is where I sit. I get the jest of what you are saying and I thou and don't think I'm too far off from what you are getting at. I'm 6' from the front wall and 3' from the side walls. I may try sitting closer and bring the speakers closer together as well. This would give me a more near field arrangement and put the back wall farther behind me. Here are a couple of pictures of my room. The 244 panels sitting on the floor are now on the ceiling.












gregfisk

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Re: OB Speakers and the Cardas Rule
« Reply #8 on: 9 Dec 2017, 03:59 am »
Double Post

Danny Richie

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Re: OB Speakers and the Cardas Rule
« Reply #9 on: 9 Dec 2017, 03:41 pm »
Man, that's a nice looking room.

Oscillate

Re: OB Speakers and the Cardas Rule
« Reply #10 on: 9 Dec 2017, 05:51 pm »
"Man, that's a nice looking room."

+1 ...nice mancave sir!

S Clark

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Re: OB Speakers and the Cardas Rule
« Reply #11 on: 9 Dec 2017, 06:22 pm »
I was looking at that photo, nodding in approval when I noticed my wife looking over my shoulder, shaking her head.

PMAT

Re: OB Speakers and the Cardas Rule
« Reply #12 on: 10 Dec 2017, 06:13 am »
Beveled roofs like that can be great for bass.

THROWBACK

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Re: OB Speakers and the Cardas Rule
« Reply #13 on: 10 Dec 2017, 01:37 pm »
S Clark

She was shaking her head  because she knows you deserve a room like that and she was sad that you didn't have one yet . . . (maybe?)

aldcoll

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Re: OB Speakers and the Cardas Rule
« Reply #14 on: 10 Dec 2017, 07:33 pm »
I can speak to the fact that it's a, great room.  Off to the side of the property and even with the big windows ( use of different thickness of glass) you can stand outside and not here a thing when the music is playing.

Greg I am guessing you moved the magnets?  (Greg had some of the sound panels on the ceiling).

Do you get any of the bass feed back from the kitchen wall still??

Alan

gregfisk

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Re: OB Speakers and the Cardas Rule
« Reply #15 on: 11 Dec 2017, 01:23 am »
Thanks for the compliments guys. It was a lot of fun building this room since I had free reign and was only limited by the size of the building. It was basically falling down and I couldn't get insurance. This was just the excuse I needed for my wife to allow me to make it into a guest house/listening room :thumb:.

Allen, This picture is before I moved the 244 panels. Moving them to the ceiling helped a lot with the bass bouncing around. The magnets are mounted to the panels and I have a small metal plate mounted to the ceiling behind each panel. It made installing the panels so much easier, no measuring at all.

I insulated the walls with a system where you put mesh up on the inside of the studs, then blow in the insulation so that it gets into every nook and cranny. Next I used hat channel on the studs before installing the sheet rock. Then I used dissimilar glass to keep the vibrations from transferring outside through the glass. It turned out much better than I ever imagined. The only place you can hear music coming outside is from the foam core metal door that I bought for cheap at H.D.

Greg

Wind Chaser

Re: OB Speakers and the Cardas Rule
« Reply #16 on: Yesterday at 03:29 am »
Hey WC,

 Thanks for the input. My Room runs the other direction thou so my speakers are on the short wall. 19' wide by 30' feet long with nothing really to mess with the speakers... I get the jest of what you are saying and I thou and don't think I'm too far off from what you are getting at.

Um, no. Your current arrangement isn’t anything like what I’m talking about. If you take a second look at my drawing, you’ll notice the seating position relative to each speaker comes to a right angle. Therein lies the magic. The distance you sit from the speakers is determined by the distance between the speakers. This is absolutely critical. You can make this arrangement work along the short wall but the result will pale in comparison with what can be achieved along the long wall.


Early B.

Re: OB Speakers and the Cardas Rule
« Reply #17 on: Yesterday at 04:28 am »
Um, no. Your current arrangement isn’t anything like what I’m talking about. If you take a second look at my drawing, you’ll notice the seating position relative to each speaker comes to a right angle. Therein lies the magic. The distance you sit from the speakers is determined by the distance between the speakers. This is absolutely critical. You can make this arrangement work along the short wall but the result will pale in comparison with what can be achieved along the long wall.

What you're suggesting isn't practical for the vast majority of rooms and living situations. If I did what you're proposing in my room, I'd be sitting 3 feet from the speakers! And since the speakers would be too far into the room, they'd be a trip hazard, an eyesore, and a divorce proceeding.

gregfisk

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Re: OB Speakers and the Cardas Rule
« Reply #18 on: Yesterday at 05:22 am »
Um, no. Your current arrangement isn't anything like what I'm talking about. If you take a second look at my drawing, you'll notice the seating position relative to each speaker comes to a right angle. Therein lies the magic. The distance you sit from the speakers is determined by the distance between the speakers. This is absolutely critical. You can make this arrangement work along the short wall but the result will pale in comparison with what can be achieved along the long wall.

Well, your right. I really didn't look that closely since that arrangement would put the left speaker in the kitchen. I now see you have the seating position much closer to the speakers than they are to each other. I'm curious as to how you determined where the seating position goes by using the distance between the speakers?

In my set up the sound stage on the front wall is actually pretty good. The entire wall fills up with sound and with some songs and the 244 panels at the first reflection points it wraps around you. I have my speakers in an equilateral triangle which I understand to be common. But, I'm always willing to try something else if it can work in my room. I did move the couch closer to the speakers not too long ago and did get some improvement.

Danny Richie

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Re: OB Speakers and the Cardas Rule
« Reply #19 on: Yesterday at 03:44 pm »
For our listening room and the listening rooms that we've set up at the shows, we've found that what is ideal is for the listener to be a little further away from the speakers than they are from each other.