WIFI to be option for Overdrive SX top DAC

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audioengr

WIFI to be option for Overdrive SX top DAC
« on: 20 Nov 2017, 10:22 pm »
After doing a lot of testing of router and switch and Ethernet isolators, I determined that in order to get the best SQ from Ethernet, one must use a good grounded LPS for the router/switch and it must be a good router/switch.  My own switch is not as good as my router for SQ.

This is too much to ask of customers.  The goal of Ethernet was to eliminate any SQ degradation by the ancillary equipment and software.  Simply cannot be guaranteed with wired Ethernet.

Therefore, I devised a WIFI solution that has identical sound quality to my best wired Ethernet solution.  This includes cables, a WIFI adapter powered from a Hynes LPS and an Ethernet isolator. It seems to be as reliable as wired Ethernet, assuming a strong WIFI signal.

If customers cannot get WIFI to their equipment rack, then there are other options, such as optical (Thanks to Ketcham)(still testing for SQ):




and AC-wiring Ethernet extenders - still being tested also.

Steve N.
Empirical Audio
« Last Edit: 12 Feb 2018, 06:04 pm by audioengr »

ketcham

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Re: WIFI to be standard on Overdrive SX top DAC
« Reply #1 on: 21 Nov 2017, 06:27 pm »
I would like to take credit here but this only one solution I gained the collective of everyone on ComputerAudiophile who suggested the stated hardware.  It does require a LPS at the DAC end, as does the wireless option, Steve came up with.  I have not found improvement with LPS in the upstream network that is otherwise not isolated.  Given the data is sent in packs with a check sum for errors, I do not see how entire system with LPS throughout is beneficial, but some do claim this is also helpful, even necessary.  Again, this is not my experience (nor is it Professor Nugent's).  USB 2.0 data is transferred by drivers without the check sum implemented as it would otherwise be too slow and I believe is why I have not had an ideal experience with it.  USB was not only unstable with potential speaker damage but sound quality was inferior to SPDIF.  Ethernet input for Steve's dac is indeed superior, especially with his new design modifications which I recommend.  Personally, I ran 4 arms of this LPS product to four optical converters used in my system: https://wyred4sound.com/products/upgrades-mods-accessories/ps-1-modular-linear-power-supply  - Black Friday sale on now, BTW.

I also have wireless option Steve suggested with an Empirical LPS unit. 

audioengr

Re: WIFI to be standard on Overdrive SX top DAC
« Reply #2 on: 21 Nov 2017, 06:38 pm »
There is a lot of interest on the forum below about whether the optical interface or the WIFI is better:

http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showthread.php?24355-For-those-using-Ethernet-to-your-DAC

Ketcham - have you got the WIFI working and if so, how does it compare to your previous optical?

Steve N.

paul79

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Re: WIFI to be standard on Overdrive SX top DAC
« Reply #3 on: 22 Nov 2017, 12:58 am »
WiFi has the greatest potential I believe. It is completely physically isolated, but I am sure presents other noise issues that need to be dealt with.
The Auralic Aries with the latest firmware and over WiFi is stunningly good FE, if you use a good LPS to power the Aries.

Steve, I know these are not a Hynes solution, but I have gotten quite excellent results using the Sbooster supplies on the network side of things. I have a few Hynes supplies, and I actually prefer these powering my Router and NAS. Just the supply. Do not use the extra filter module they provide for anything network related, but the additional filter module may provide a nice improvement to Endpoints like the Aries etc....


audioengr

Re: WIFI to be standard on Overdrive SX top DAC
« Reply #4 on: 22 Nov 2017, 06:31 pm »
WiFi has the greatest potential I believe. It is completely physically isolated, but I am sure presents other noise issues that need to be dealt with.
The Auralic Aries with the latest firmware and over WiFi is stunningly good FE, if you use a good LPS to power the Aries.

Steve, I know these are not a Hynes solution, but I have gotten quite excellent results using the Sbooster supplies on the network side of things. I have a few Hynes supplies, and I actually prefer these powering my Router and NAS. Just the supply. Do not use the extra filter module they provide for anything network related, but the additional filter module may provide a nice improvement to Endpoints like the Aries etc....

I saw the Sbooster stuff online.  This is good feedback.  Have you ever tried the Mojo LPS?

Steve N.

zoom25

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Re: WIFI to be standard on Overdrive SX top DAC
« Reply #5 on: 22 Nov 2017, 06:47 pm »
I've also found differences between power supplies and various switches and routers. The other thing I played around with was ethernet cables: Cat 5e, 6, 6a, and 6a S/STP from Digiflex, Belden, TrippLite, Phantom cables. All generic stuff I got for free, except for the 6a S/STP. Around 15 cables in various lengths. I'm currently using the Cat 6a S/STP cables with their shields removed on both ends. In my swapping, I also found that the Cat 6a S/STP would lock on instantaneously on Roon. The Cat5e were the slowest in locking.

http://www.infinitecables.com/cat5e-cat6-cat6a/cat6a-molded-shielded-patch-cables/cat6a-sstp-black/

The switches were DGS-1005 and DGS-108 and a spare router Linksys E3000. Used with Bryston BDP-1 and iMac only. Nothing else connected. I can even unplug the router after initial setup and only have the switch and the 2 cables on. Allowed for more control. The switches require 5V and I've used Jitterbug on the DGS-1005. Waiting for the Teradak to show up.

https://www.siemon.com/us/standards/Screened_and_Shielded_Guide_7_Antenna_Myth.asp

https://www.siemon.com/us/standards/Screened_and_Shielded_Guide_9_Why_Use_Fully_Shielded_Cabling.asp

https://www.bicsi.org/pdf/conferences/winter/2009/presentations/Mythbusting%20Takes%20on%20Shielded%20Cabling%20-%20Herb%20Congdon%20and%20Brian%20Davis.pdf

http://www.ti.com/lit/an/snla107a/snla107a.pdf

audioengr

Re: WIFI to be standard on Overdrive SX top DAC
« Reply #6 on: 22 Nov 2017, 06:54 pm »
I've also found differences between power supplies and various switches and routers. The other thing I played around with was ethernet cables: Cat 5e, 6, 6a, and 6a S/STP from Digiflex, Belden, TrippLite, Phantom cables. All generic stuff I got for free, except for the 6a S/STP. Around 15 cables in various lengths. I'm currently using the Cat 6a S/STP cables with their shields removed on both ends. In my swapping, I also found that the Cat 6a S/STP would lock on instantaneously on Roon. The Cat5e were the slowest in locking.

http://www.infinitecables.com/cat5e-cat6-cat6a/cat6a-molded-shielded-patch-cables/cat6a-sstp-black/

The switches were DGS-1005 and DGS-108 and a spare router Linksys E3000. Used with Bryston BDP-1 and iMac only. Nothing else connected. I can even unplug the router after initial setup and only have the switch and the 2 cables on. Allowed for more control. The switches require 5V and I've used Jitterbug on the DGS-1005. Waiting for the Teradak to show up.

https://www.siemon.com/us/standards/Screened_and_Shielded_Guide_7_Antenna_Myth.asp

https://www.siemon.com/us/standards/Screened_and_Shielded_Guide_9_Why_Use_Fully_Shielded_Cabling.asp

https://www.bicsi.org/pdf/conferences/winter/2009/presentations/Mythbusting%20Takes%20on%20Shielded%20Cabling%20-%20Herb%20Congdon%20and%20Brian%20Davis.pdf

http://www.ti.com/lit/an/snla107a/snla107a.pdf

The jitterbug is a LPS?

The most important thing with wired Ethernet is that the LPS powering the router or switch have earth ground connected to DC common.  Secondly, the LPS should have fast-reacting regulator.

I use CAT7 - TNP from Amazon.  Cheap and delivers the goods.

Steve N.

paul79

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Re: WIFI to be standard on Overdrive SX top DAC
« Reply #7 on: 22 Nov 2017, 08:34 pm »
To further, do not use the audiophile type barrel connectors for the DC Leads (Oyaide). Most of the Routers, other network equipment, etc. should use the same type of barrel connector that they come with for the best connection. The fork style that grabs around the center pin is best and it can be retensioned.


paul79

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Re: WIFI to be standard on Overdrive SX top DAC
« Reply #8 on: 22 Nov 2017, 08:40 pm »
I saw the Sbooster stuff online.  This is good feedback.  Have you ever tried the Mojo LPS?

Steve N.

I have not. I have seen them, but have never tried. Some of the very cheap Chinese LPS on Ebay are surprisingly good though!

zoom25

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Re: WIFI to be standard on Overdrive SX top DAC
« Reply #9 on: 22 Nov 2017, 09:17 pm »
The jitterbug is a LPS?

The most important thing with wired Ethernet is that the LPS powering the router or switch have earth ground connected to DC common.  Secondly, the LPS should have fast-reacting regulator.

I use CAT7 - TNP from Amazon.  Cheap and delivers the goods.

Steve N.

The Jitterbug isn't a LPS. It's a filter. I've tried powering the switches from other things, even from the Bryston BDP-1 itself. I have ordered a separate Teradak U9 for the switch which is taking forever to come. The unit has a 5V USB output. The other thing I've used to power my switch is the Apple 5V chargers. Since those have a USB output, I can plug the Jitterbug into that and then a USB cable to power the DGS-1005.

audioengr

Re: WIFI to be standard on Overdrive SX top DAC
« Reply #10 on: 22 Nov 2017, 10:06 pm »
The Jitterbug isn't a LPS. It's a filter. I've tried powering the switches from other things, even from the Bryston BDP-1 itself. I have ordered a separate Teradak U9 for the switch which is taking forever to come. The unit has a 5V USB output. The other thing I've used to power my switch is the Apple 5V chargers. Since those have a USB output, I can plug the Jitterbug into that and then a USB cable to power the DGS-1005.

The biggest SQ improvement I found was using a really good LPS with DC common connected to earth ground on the router.  The LPS needs a three-prong plug to AC power.

Steve N.
Empirical Audio

zoom25

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Re: WIFI to be standard on Overdrive SX top DAC
« Reply #11 on: 22 Nov 2017, 10:34 pm »
The biggest SQ improvement I found was using a really good LPS with DC common connected to earth ground on the router.  The LPS needs a three-prong plug to AC power.

Steve N.
Empirical Audio

This one has a three prong plug: http://img.usaudiomart.com/uploads/large/879966-lightspeed-ldr-attenuator-passive-preamp-wteradak-u9-regulated-linear-power-supply.jpg

Internal: http://www.teradak.com/uploadfile/image/20131017/2013101710080817817.jpg

I'd assume this should be fine. There are more expensive 5V LPS, but I wanted to see how much benefit this would bring.

I wish more network audio devices would come with fiber inputs. Then the only noise to worry about would be on the conversion end inside the device. No need to worry about incoming noise.

audioengr

Re: WIFI to be standard on Overdrive SX top DAC
« Reply #12 on: 23 Nov 2017, 12:25 am »
This one has a three prong plug: http://img.usaudiomart.com/uploads/large/879966-lightspeed-ldr-attenuator-passive-preamp-wteradak-u9-regulated-linear-power-supply.jpg

Internal: http://www.teradak.com/uploadfile/image/20131017/2013101710080817817.jpg

I'd assume this should be fine. There are more expensive 5V LPS, but I wanted to see how much benefit this would bring.

I will work, but not sure if it's fast enough responding to sound good.  You could probably connect the earth ground to the DC common inside easily enough if you know how to solder.

Quote
I wish more network audio devices would come with fiber inputs. Then the only noise to worry about would be on the conversion end inside the device. No need to worry about incoming noise.

External is better because then you have control over the power supply and earth grounding, plus you can go wireless or wired easier IMO.

Some folks are using IFI LPS and others Sbooster.  I am using my own version of Hynes supply.

Steve N.

paul79

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Re: WIFI to be standard on Overdrive SX top DAC
« Reply #13 on: 23 Nov 2017, 01:10 am »
The Sbooster supplies also need to be AC Grounded at the output. They do not come this way.

paul79

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Re: WIFI to be standard on Overdrive SX top DAC
« Reply #14 on: 23 Nov 2017, 01:48 am »
Steve,

Have you tried any of the other Emo Systems Isolators? The EN-70HD or the EN-60KDS? I like the latter one because it has a cable on one end already.

Basically, did you choose the EN-70e for sonic reasons?

audioengr

Re: WIFI to be standard on Overdrive SX top DAC
« Reply #15 on: 23 Nov 2017, 05:11 am »
Steve,

Have you tried any of the other Emo Systems Isolators? The EN-70HD or the EN-60KDS? I like the latter one because it has a cable on one end already.

Basically, did you choose the EN-70e for sonic reasons?

Exactly.  I didn't like the sound of the HD version, only the e version.

Steve N.

paul79

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Re: WIFI to be standard on Overdrive SX top DAC
« Reply #16 on: 28 Nov 2017, 03:30 am »
I should also add that optimizing the NAS, the router, and or whatever you get your files from, should be optimized. Routers typically have apps that can be shut off, and NAS drives can also be optimized. This makes important improvements IME.
« Last Edit: 28 Nov 2017, 05:28 am by paul79 »

zoom25

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Re: WIFI to be standard on Overdrive SX top DAC
« Reply #17 on: 28 Nov 2017, 03:32 am »
I will work, but not sure if it's fast enough responding to sound good.  You could probably connect the earth ground to the DC common inside easily enough if you know how to solder.

External is better because then you have control over the power supply and earth grounding, plus you can go wireless or wired easier IMO.

Some folks are using IFI LPS and others Sbooster.  I am using my own version of Hynes supply.

Steve N.

I finally got the Teradak and it's a nice improvement over the stock D-Link switching.

ivanj

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Re: WIFI to be standard on Overdrive SX top DAC
« Reply #18 on: 12 Jan 2018, 01:13 pm »
Steve,
I think Wifi introduces a radio transmitter and receiver, on both ends into the system. I reckon you can't fully turn off the receiver at one end and the transmitter at another because of the way TCP works wirelessly. You'll have to grapple with those problems and factors. In setting up one streaming service I have read that 5 GHz band give better SQ than the 2.4GHz band which gives longer distance. Yhis is true of cordless phones. One will have to look at immunity from leakage from other "wifi radio stations" at those frequencies, class d amplifiers, and so on. If wifi is a radio transmission, the design length and quality of the antenna comes into play. Also, you will need to transmit and receive at the highest speed, all other things being equal, in order to have a bandwidth that exceeds the RMS level of the highest peak signal. This holds for wired connections also. We found that out years ago when we were testing Ethernet adaptors in computers. We were looking at IOPs.  How this transmits into a "steady stream" with jitter as a component I cannot begin to guess. We didn't look at jitter we were more concerned with transactions per second.

Have you or anyone else tested your wifi solution against a 50' crossover cable of say CAT 6 or 7 bandwidth from one Ethernet adapter to another? There are commentators on other board who are beginning to experiment with this. Using a crossover cable would eliminate the switch issue and the radio issues in the case of wifi.

audioengr

Re: WIFI to be standard on Overdrive SX top DAC
« Reply #19 on: 12 Jan 2018, 06:26 pm »
Steve,
I think Wifi introduces a radio transmitter and receiver, on both ends into the system. I reckon you can't fully turn off the receiver at one end and the transmitter at another because of the way TCP works wirelessly. You'll have to grapple with those problems and factors. In setting up one streaming service I have read that 5 GHz band give better SQ than the 2.4GHz band which gives longer distance. Yhis is true of cordless phones.

I agree.  I would like to use 5GHz, but my adapter only does 2.5GHz.


Quote
One will have to look at immunity from leakage from other "wifi radio stations" at those frequencies, class d amplifiers, and so on. If wifi is a radio transmission, the design length and quality of the antenna comes into play.

I have three other routers I can see locally here and they don't seem to make any difference.  Maybe in an apartment building where there are 30 routers nearby it could make a difference.  No way for me to test this.

Quote
Also, you will need to transmit and receive at the highest speed, all other things being equal, in order to have a bandwidth that exceeds the RMS level of the highest peak signal. This holds for wired connections also. We found that out years ago when we were testing Ethernet adaptors in computers. We were looking at IOPs.  How this transmits into a "steady stream" with jitter as a component I cannot begin to guess. We didn't look at jitter we were more concerned with transactions per second.

I don't believe jitter is really the problem because it is packetized transmission which is buffered at the end-point.  However, the issues seem to be leakage noise across the transformer and the slew-rate of the transformer driver.

Quote
Have you or anyone else tested your wifi solution against a 50' crossover cable of say CAT 6 or 7 bandwidth from one Ethernet adapter to another? There are commentators on other board who are beginning to experiment with this. Using a crossover cable would eliminate the switch issue and the radio issues in the case of wifi.

50' is a long cable.  I plan to try this.  At this time, I have proven that the WIFI adapter powered from a grounded LPS delivers identical sound quality to a router powered from a grounded LPS wired directly to the DAC.

A customer sent me some TP-Link House AC wiring Ethernet extenders to try.  They were decent, but there was a small 2-cycle outboard motorboat running in the background all the time, sometimes in the music and the HF detail was not as clear.  I decided it's not good enough to recommend.

Steve N.