Can OB Bass have "impact"?

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glynnw

Can OB Bass have "impact"?
« on: 26 Oct 2017, 06:32 pm »
My main take-away from RMAF this year was a wish for my bass to have more impact.  By that I mean transient response - feeling the drumstick hit the drumskin type of thing.  I have a pair of the Dual 12" servo subs that Danny designed , with a pair of Spatial Audio M3 Triode Master spkrs powered by a Shindo Montille 6V6 amp.  I also sometimes use a First watt J-2 amp on the Spatials  and also tried the Red Dragon amps when I first got the speakers (originally these were Turbo S model).  At RMAF several of the larger systems had knock you down bass.  My favorite speaker at the show was the very large Daedalus speaker and it's bass was tremendous, and gritty and, well, scrumptious - but well above my price range.  I also heard the SVS sub do what I want - it is a large ported box thing.  To recap, I have a total of 4 12' woofers and 4 15' woofers making bass but I still miss that impact of some designs.  My question - is this just something that OB spkrs will not do?

Tyson

Re: Can OB Bass have "impact"?
« Reply #1 on: 26 Oct 2017, 07:34 pm »
It can.  Just remember that "chest thumping" bass happens around 50 hz, not at 20hz.   20hz is pressurize the room & make you feel like you are under water bass. 

To optimize the dual 12" OB's, make sure they are set to cover everything up to 80hz (100hz or 120hz is even better, IMO).  Set the low frequency extension to 28hz, set damping to high, and turn on the rumble filter.

Also, measure your room and make sure you've used the EQ to knock down your worst peak (room mode).  Only ever try to reduce a peak, never ever try to boost a null (it sucks power like crazy & has minimal effect anyway).

Then, turn it UP!  The fact that it's OB and the damping is high will give the impression that bass is 'light' if you leave it set to flat frequency response.  By turning it up you get super tight, punchy bass that has impact. 

Oh, and after you do all of that, play around with the phase knob a bit - if it's not set optimally for your room and main speakers, it'll cause bass to sound weak.

Properly set up, the OB servo subs should give you a ton of punch.

Early B.

Re: Can OB Bass have "impact"?
« Reply #2 on: 26 Oct 2017, 08:40 pm »
To recap, I have a total of 4 12' woofers and 4 15' woofers making bass but I still miss that impact of some designs. 

Yeah, you most definitely have something set up wrong. Trust me, I went through it with my own set of dual servo subs until I finally fixed the wiring problem. You should have some serious chest thumping, bone crushing bass.

We're here to help you, so give us some more details with pics -- room size, gear, setup, etc. Also, post a pic of the back of one of the amps so we can see your settings. In addition to Tyson's advice, check your wiring, then check it again.

Danny Richie

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Re: Can OB Bass have "impact"?
« Reply #3 on: 26 Oct 2017, 11:58 pm »
I run just four of the servo subs in our listening room that is 23 feet, by 17 feet, with 9 foot ceilings, and a large opening at the end that opens up to the rest of the house. So lots of air space.

And with the microphone 13 feet away they were hitting 115db levels all the way down to 20Hz without over driving them.

If you are not hitting 110 plus db levels with four of our open baffle servo subs then you have them wired wrong or something else is holding them back.

mlundy57

Re: Can OB Bass have "impact"?
« Reply #4 on: 27 Oct 2017, 12:40 am »
Here's something I learned recently. If you are using OB mains (i.e. NX-Otica/servo sub combination) as part of a 2 channel / HT combo system that has a center channel speaker and you run the room correction software in the AVR (Audesey, YAPO, etc.) the correction will dial the main speakers back to match the center channel.

In this case, Audesey set the center channel at +6.5dB and the left and right mains at -10dB. This resulted in the mains, including the subs not getting much of a signal and correspondingly weak bass. Once the mains were brought back up to 0dB and Audesey turned off bass output was back where it should be.

Mike

glynnw

Re: Can OB Bass have "impact"?
« Reply #5 on: 27 Oct 2017, 04:22 am »
I should have time by this weekend to enact changes suggested so far.  Will try to figure out how to show picture of the room, too.  Please keep advice coming - this issue has really been buggin' me.

THROWBACK

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Re: Can OB Bass have "impact"?
« Reply #6 on: 27 Oct 2017, 01:24 pm »
glynnw

It may take more time than you think. It is an iterative process and there are many variables - - all of the A-370 PEQ settings plus positioning and room treatment, not to mention ICs, power cords, power conditioning and the like. And you need to be systematic about it: 1. make a change; 2. evaluate; 3. go forward or go back.  I made a handy-dandy diagram of the A-370 PEQ for myself to keep track of changes. I would include it here, but danged if I can figure out how to do it. Capt. Hemo and Danny Ritchie both have copies (from April 2017); maybe they can post it here.

Good luck!

mikeeastman

Re: Can OB Bass have "impact"?
« Reply #7 on: 27 Oct 2017, 02:55 pm »
 Here's a copy of the diagram.



FullRangeMan

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Re: Can OB Bass have "impact"?
« Reply #8 on: 27 Oct 2017, 03:31 pm »
My main take-away from RMAF this year was a wish for my bass to have more impact.
I think what you refer as impact are a resonant bass typical from a boxed woofer.

Captainhemo

Re: Can OB Bass have "impact"?
« Reply #9 on: 27 Oct 2017, 04:10 pm »
What FRM  says above is quite possible.... if yo  are   used tothe "boom" from a conventional   box sub, it's going to take some time to  adjust to the clean bas the OB servos  generate. Some adjust quickly,  some take a bit more time.  The OB  subs  load the room much more venly

As others  suggest above,   the   settings on the  A370 do make a difference and  will be different for and given  room and  for the preferences of each  person. the are no    right settings

IIRC, you've had these for a while and  we went over some wiring issues some time back but  I'd  double check  and start there.  If it's not correct, the subs won't function correctly
ZThere's pretty easy to follow  wiring diagrams here:
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=149708.0

Make sure you follow the one that corresponds to your  driver configuration

jay

mikeeastman

Re: Can OB Bass have "impact"?
« Reply #10 on: 28 Oct 2017, 07:20 pm »
Tyson, thanks for the info on the sub setting, gave it a try and picked up some more impact.  :thumb:

Early B.

Re: Can OB Bass have "impact"?
« Reply #11 on: 28 Oct 2017, 07:56 pm »
I should have time by this weekend to enact changes suggested so far.  Will try to figure out how to show picture of the room, too.  Please keep advice coming - this issue has really been buggin' me.

Based on what you've described, changing the settings may help, but there's a more fundamental problem. Here's my trouble shooting suggestion:

1. Check your settings on each amp to make sure they're identical.

2. Play one sub by itself, then play the other sub by itself to see if they sound identical. You just want to make sure your problem isn't isolated to a single sub or amp or driver. 

3. Make sure each woofer is woofing by placing your hand gently on each woofer as music is being played.

4. Remove all of the wires from one of your subs and start from the beginning. If you're using a wiring harness, don't be afraid to take some scissors and cut it off. Use 12 ga. wire.

5. Once you've fixed the problem, try using the speaker level inputs. In my setup, the subs sounded a bit better that way.

6. Play around with positioning and settings. Take your time. It could take weeks or months to get the right combo. In the meantime, if you've fixed the problem, you'll still have the best bass of the entire human race.
 
   

glynnw

Re: Can OB Bass have "impact"?
« Reply #12 on: 28 Oct 2017, 08:07 pm »
I spent about an hour fooling with it this afternoon and wound up turning the bass up a bit.  As Throwback mentions above, there are a jillion variables.  In addition to the sub amp adjustments, I am running both subs off a DSpeaker Anti-Mode 2.0 Dual Core which gives me a huge range of DSP adjustments which I have never used.  I have noticed for the last few years that after I set sub levels using an Omni-Mic, I wind up turning the sub down to a level I prefer for listening.  Looking at my freq response today, I see the peak is at 100 Hz.  I will try to use the DSP to lower this while leaving the area around 50 Hz unchanged.  I am hoping this will eliminate the slight boominess in vocals I get if I do not turn the bass level below what is measured as flat.  We'll see what happens.  I do notice that with the bass turned up from my normal level, I get a much improved "floor" to everything.  All I am missing is that"WHOOMP" when a full orchestra really hits it.  That is not boominess - it is how a live orchestra in a nice hall (Cleveland's Severance is the one I am familiar with) really sounds.  It can rock you in your seat -  in a goood way. I appreciate all the help.  I also plan to try a better DAC at some time to see if that is helpful.  But I am now 95% there.  Thanks.

Early B.

Re: Can OB Bass have "impact"?
« Reply #13 on: 28 Oct 2017, 08:47 pm »
All I am missing is that"WHOOMP" when a full orchestra really hits it.  That is not boominess - it is how a live orchestra in a nice hall (Cleveland's Severance is the one I am familiar with) really sounds.  It can rock you in your seat -  in a goood way. I appreciate all the help.  I also plan to try a better DAC at some time to see if that is helpful.  But I am now 95% there. 

If you're missing the "WHOOMP," then you're not 95% there. I'd temporarily remove the Anti-Mode device, fix the problem, then re-install it for fine tuning. That's the only way you're gonna be certain that your problem isn't a mechanical one. Otherwise, you'll be tweaking forever and wondering where your "WHOOMP" went.


Danny Richie

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Re: Can OB Bass have "impact"?
« Reply #14 on: 28 Oct 2017, 09:42 pm »
If you have a peak at 100Hz then try turning the crossover point down and the gain up.

It also might sound a lot better if you get all of the DSP out of the signal path and just use the controls on the plate amp for adjustments.

PMAT

Re: Can OB Bass have "impact"?
« Reply #15 on: 29 Oct 2017, 04:12 am »
I recently switched from a good CD player to a great one and the bass went deeper,was cleared and impact improved. Your source may be involved. Sorry to introduce another variable.

Captainhemo

Re: Can OB Bass have "impact"?
« Reply #16 on: 29 Oct 2017, 04:30 pm »
I recently switched from a good CD player to a great one and the bass went deeper,was cleared and impact improved. Your source may be involved. Sorry to introduce another variable.

This is so true and it can  pretty much any  component could be involved.  Recently we demo'd an ALLnic L-1500 preamp  ,  we had to reduce the output  of the servo subs by 8 clicks on each  A370 !

Another thing the  OP  could try ( if  you haven't already)  is to parallel  off the inputs of your main speakers to the  high level inputs of the A370's.   In some cases,  people have  reported that this setup has  been a signifigant improvement...  resuluts seem very system dependent.

jay

mlundy57

Re: Can OB Bass have "impact"?
« Reply #17 on: 29 Oct 2017, 06:08 pm »
If using the line level inputs you can put a Y-adapter on the interconnect at the A370 then connect the Y-adapter to both the left and right inputs. As I understand it, this increases the input signal to the A370 by 6dB.

I have also noticed performance differences from the subs depending on which preamp I am using. In my case, the extremes range from a volume setting on the A370s between 10 o'clock and 2 o'clock.

Mike

Tyson

Re: Can OB Bass have "impact"?
« Reply #18 on: 29 Oct 2017, 08:47 pm »

It also might sound a lot better if you get all of the DSP out of the signal path and just use the controls on the plate amp for adjustments.

This is really good advice.

glynnw

Re: Can OB Bass have "impact"?
« Reply #19 on: 29 Oct 2017, 08:59 pm »
I'll try that while working on this issue, but I am pretty much a big fan of the DSpeaker unit.  If removing it gets me the sound I want I'll thank all of you, but I love that it gives me remote control of the sub volume at the least.  It has a bypass mode where you can compare DSP working vs not and I prefer the tighter sound with it on every time.  I am already using a y-adaptor to feed the signal to both L and R inputs on sub.