Tweeter cap upgrade in RS 2.5. Worth the cost?

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LarryD56

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Tweeter cap upgrade in RS 2.5. Worth the cost?
« on: 16 Oct 2017, 03:54 am »
I have a pair of Infinity RS 2.5s that I've done a little work in the crossovers by upgrading the caps in a few areas and have taken out the pots and just used resistors instead. Took a little experimentation to get the right results I wanted. The outcome was much better sound and more details w/o harshness. I put in 3.9uf Mundorf Supremes in the tweeter section and though it sounds better I was considering putting Jupiter Coppers in place of the Mundorf Supremes. That would be over $350 for just two caps. What benefits would I be getting for putting that type of change into the tweeter section? I guess my question would be, "Is it worth it?"

Wish I could put copper caps in the midrange section, but that cap is 125uf....

Larry D.

Stimpy

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Re: Tweeter cap upgrade in RS 2.5. Worth the cost?
« Reply #1 on: 16 Oct 2017, 11:53 pm »
I've never heard the Jupiter Coppers, so I can't comment there.  Hopefully others will chime in, with their experiences?  But, personally, you could do worse than Mundorf Supremes.  Jeff recommended them to me, for a recap, and I like what I've heard.  And maybe it's just me, but the Jupiter's seem a little 'over kill', for the EMITs.  Capacitors of their level would be better served on the mids.  Especially, if you're like me, and can't hear much over 15KHz anyway.

Also, you might enjoy this story.  Paul McGowan, of PS Audio, owns a set of IRS V's.  He had them rebuilt after purchase.  New GRAZ EMIM diaphragms.  Plus, a complete crossover rebuild.  And guess what, Paul's engineer used Mundorf capacitors throughout!  Here's the full thread.

http://www.psaudio.com/forum/loudspeaker-forum/irs-v-in-music-room-one-gets-a-new-lease-on-life/

Good luck.

Jeff

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Re: Tweeter cap upgrade in RS 2.5. Worth the cost?
« Reply #2 on: 17 Oct 2017, 01:22 am »
The Supreme is good bang for the buck, but the Coppers would be an audible improvement across the board.

"Is it worth it?"

 :lol: :roll: :lol:  The only one who could tell us that is the guy holding the wallet, and he won't know until it is too late!  :green:

Jeff

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Re: Tweeter cap upgrade in RS 2.5. Worth the cost?
« Reply #3 on: 17 Oct 2017, 01:59 am »
I've never heard the Jupiter Coppers, so I can't comment there.  Hopefully others will chime in, with their experiences?  But, personally, you could do worse than Mundorf Supremes.  Jeff recommended them to me, for a recap, and I like what I've heard.  And maybe it's just me, but the Jupiter's seem a little 'over kill', for the EMITs.  Capacitors of their level would be better served on the mids.  Especially, if you're like me, and can't hear much over 15KHz anyway.

They go down to near 2.5k before they are -12db.  They are very audible.  Using Copper does air as "a bit rich", but there are those in that category.

Quote
Also, you might enjoy this story.  Paul McGowan, of PS Audio, owns a set of IRS V's.  He had them rebuilt after purchase.  New GRAZ EMIM diaphragms.  Plus, a complete crossover rebuild.  And guess what, Paul's engineer used Mundorf capacitors throughout!

Pretty cool all except I could only see MKPs.  I use MKPs for bass shunts only.  :nono:

The MKP is akin to the Solen/Axon.  I used Axons in the bass circuit on the last pair of RS 4.5s we did.  However, I used EVO Oil in the mid array.  The EMIT received a Supreme S/O bypassed with a Jupiter Copper.  I've attached a chance pic during the assembly process.

Stimpy

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Re: Tweeter cap upgrade in RS 2.5. Worth the cost?
« Reply #4 on: 17 Oct 2017, 12:00 pm »
They go down to near 2.5k before they are -12db.  They are very audible.  Using Copper does air as "a bit rich", but there are those in that category.

Good to know, as I like 'air' through the upper mids and treble.  Some recordings are so dry.  It's not hard to sweeten a mix, to add a sense of air, during mastering.  I've always wondered why the engineers didn't?  I did.

Pretty cool all except I could only see MKPs.  I use MKPs for bass shunts only.  :nono:

Yea, I wondered about that too.  Especially after Paul mentions that he wanted "no compromises".

The MKP is akin to the Solen/Axon.  I used Axons in the bass circuit on the last pair of RS 4.5s we did.  However, I used EVO Oil in the mid array.  The EMIT received a Supreme S/O bypassed with a Jupiter Copper.  I've attached a chance pic during the assembly process.

Good to know.  Some like the MKP caps in series, as they say they sound dynamic.  But, I've only used them as shunts.  Axon's too.  In fact, here's a shot of my AR90 crossover boards.  All EVO Oil and Supremes in series, thanks to you Jeff.  Oh, and I snunk in a Supreme Silver/Oil that accidentally found me!  Regardless, thanks for the help with my crossovers, and the great parts.  In fact, I might be sending you another order, as I'm picking up a pair of AR58s speakers this week!


Stimpy

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Re: Tweeter cap upgrade in RS 2.5. Worth the cost?
« Reply #5 on: 17 Oct 2017, 12:10 pm »
Oh yea, after I finished the recap on the first set of boards, I grabbed a junk driver, to test my wiring.  Everything worked.  So, I next grabbed an upper midrange dome, and hooked that up to the new board, and compared just that dome to the other stock AR90 speaker.  The results were shocking!  The new boards and dome, produced such a cleaner and clearer sound.  No static distortion either, like I could now hear in the old speaker.  Plus, I was hearing better mids and treble, from just the dome, than the tweeter and mid combined, from the untouched speaker!  Awesome.  Thanks again.

Now back to our regularly scheduled program...!   :thumb:
« Last Edit: 17 Oct 2017, 01:25 pm by Stimpy »

Nick77

Re: Tweeter cap upgrade in RS 2.5. Worth the cost?
« Reply #6 on: 17 Oct 2017, 01:00 pm »
Oh yea, after I finished the recap on the first set of boards, I grabbed a junk driver, to test my wiring.  Everything worked.  So, I next grabbed an upper midrange dome, and hooked that up to the new board, and compared just that dome to the stock AR90 speaker.  The results were shocking!  The new boards and dome, produced such a cleaner and clearer sound.  No static distortion either, like I could now hear in the old speaker.  Plus, I was hearing better mids and treble, from just the dome, than the tweeter and mid combined, from the untouched speaker!  Awesome.  Thanks again.

Now back to our regularly scheduled program...!   :thumb:

What exactly did you change?

Stimpy

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Re: Tweeter cap upgrade in RS 2.5. Worth the cost?
« Reply #7 on: 17 Oct 2017, 01:16 pm »
What exactly did you change?

Everything, as far as the capacitors are concerned!  I went with Jeff's suggestions.  Mundorf EVO Oils for all of the series, high pass capacitors.  Those were 4uF, 6uF, 24uF, and 80uF.  And if there wasn't a single value that matched what I needed, I paralleled capacitors, usually by adding Supreme or Supreme Silver/Oils, to make up the difference.  For the shunt capacitors (8uF, 30uF, 40uF, 350uF), parallel to ground, I used Axon True Caps.  Plus, a 330uF Mundorf E-Cap and a 20uF Axon for the 350uF shunt.  I also added Dayton Film and Foil or Auricap bypass capacitors to most of the caps too, unless they already had the Supremes.  I left those as-is, as I hoped they were already good enough!  I swapped old resistors with new Mills resistors too.  I reused the original coils, and they were all air core, and measured in spec.

Nick77

Re: Tweeter cap upgrade in RS 2.5. Worth the cost?
« Reply #8 on: 17 Oct 2017, 01:41 pm »
Good to hear, I thought you might have added the Jupiter Coppers and was curious. Thanks

Stimpy

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Re: Tweeter cap upgrade in RS 2.5. Worth the cost?
« Reply #9 on: 17 Oct 2017, 01:48 pm »
Good to hear, I thought you might have added the Jupiter Coppers and was curious. Thanks

Well, Jupiter Copper capacitors are available in values I could have used in the treble.  But, two 3.9uF's and two 6uF's, would have cost over $1100 for the 4 parts.  Just 'slightly' outside my budget.   :lol:

LarryD56

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Re: Tweeter cap upgrade in RS 2.5. Worth the cost?
« Reply #10 on: 17 Oct 2017, 03:30 pm »
Yeah, the Jupiter Coppers are looking to be just outside my range of what I would want to install on a 37+ year old speaker. I really wanted to put something nicer than a Solen (that's in there now) in the midrange section (which is the 'meat' of the music) , but at 125uf that would be a real chunk of change I'd be spending to get the best improvement.

Larry

Stimpy

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Re: Tweeter cap upgrade in RS 2.5. Worth the cost?
« Reply #11 on: 17 Oct 2017, 03:37 pm »
That 125uF cap, is an important crossover part.  It's the main high pass component on the EMIM.  It's definitely deserving of something better than that Solen...!  There's a 100uF Mundorf EVO Oil capacitor.  You could start with that, and parallel a second cap, to get to 125uF.  That would be an improvement. 

Here's the crossover schematic, if other's want to make suggestions!

http://www.infinity-classics.de/technik/manuals/RS_2.5_technical_sheet.pdf

LarryD56

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Re: Tweeter cap upgrade in RS 2.5. Worth the cost?
« Reply #12 on: 18 Oct 2017, 02:37 am »
The original caps were two electrolytics. A 50uf and a 75uf. The Solen was a definite improvement, but I usually only use Solens in the woofer section of the crossover. What others besides the aluminum EVO oils would be an upgrade over the Solens. I'd rather spend $300+ on the midrange rather than the tweeter.


Larry
« Last Edit: 20 Oct 2017, 05:05 am by LarryD56 »

LarryD56

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Re: Tweeter cap upgrade in RS 2.5. Worth the cost?
« Reply #13 on: 22 Oct 2017, 06:09 am »
I guess the midrange would be more worthwhile to upgrade the caps in. What's in there now is a 120uf Solen PA-MKP-FC 250V. Just wondering what kind of a difference I could expect if I put in two 47uf and one 33uf Mundorf EVO Oils in place of the Solen. I'd have about $98 per speaker in the cap upgrade.

Larry

LarryD56

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Re: Tweeter cap upgrade in RS 2.5. Worth the cost?
« Reply #14 on: 24 Oct 2017, 04:07 am »
Or a 100uf and a 22uf at $84.24. The more affordable, the better.

Larry

Jeff

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Re: Tweeter cap upgrade in RS 2.5. Worth the cost?
« Reply #15 on: 24 Oct 2017, 07:30 am »
The midrange comes before all else.

Use the 2x47+33.

It will be much warmer, and a bit richer.  Closer to how those mids should sound.

JLM

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Re: Tweeter cap upgrade in RS 2.5. Worth the cost?
« Reply #16 on: 24 Oct 2017, 11:54 am »
A friend lent me $50 Jupiter Bees Wax caps to run off my $20 Dayton Audio ambience tweeters, and it made a very nice improvement.  Sort of ridiculous I know, like putting racing tires on a Ford Pinto, but made for a nice demonstration.

LarryD56

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Re: Tweeter cap upgrade in RS 2.5. Worth the cost?
« Reply #17 on: 24 Oct 2017, 12:22 pm »
What was in there before the beeswax caps were put in?

LarryD56

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Re: Tweeter cap upgrade in RS 2.5. Worth the cost?
« Reply #18 on: 24 Oct 2017, 12:33 pm »
The midrange comes before all else.

Use the 2x47+33.

It will be much warmer, and a bit richer.  Closer to how those mids should sound.

The Solens that are in there now actually measure out to about 122uf each. How does the 2x47+33 make it much warmer and a bit richer?

Also thinking to put poly caps in the woofer section and removing those electrolytics (600uf & 1100uf). That would tighten up the bass a bit wouldn't it? It seems a little sloppy on occasion, even though I had the woofers re-foamed by Bill Watkins.

Jeff

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Re: Tweeter cap upgrade in RS 2.5. Worth the cost?
« Reply #19 on: 24 Oct 2017, 10:56 pm »
How does the 2x47+33 make it much warmer and a bit richer?

It doesn't.  Going to EVO Oils does.  Missed the 100uF+22uF  :oops:  I thought you were looking at 2x47+22 as opposed to 2x47+33  :duh:  Don't mind me  :?

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Also thinking to put poly caps in the woofer section and removing those electrolytics (600uf & 1100uf). That would tighten up the bass a bit wouldn't it?

That would cost some coin.  Is there a 600uF instead of ~700uF on VC2?  What about the VC1 125uF shunt?  That would be a nice place for your 122uF of Solen.

Fresh lytics would be better than a stick in the eye.  :wink: with my good eye  :lol: