Pulled the trigger on GIK - Am I missing anything?

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Vedder323

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Hey folks - Ron from New Record Day here. I have been using the GIK 244 bass traps straddled in the corners of my room over the last few years and when I learned how to measure, I noticed they aren't really doing a darn thing. After contemplation and soaking up as much knowledge as possible on room acoustics, I decided that perhaps I was asking too much of those traps to handle the real issues in the room. Well - I just ordered 4 triptraps to stack in the corners along with a pair of free standing Gobos for treating the first reflections. I wanted to start this thread to get any other advice on my room along with providing feedback as things progress.

My room.

14.6 feet wide by 14 feet deep. On the left, there is an entrance way that leads to our front door. Behind the listening position just off to my left shoulder, there is an entry way to another room or office which is another 10 feet deep by 9 feet wide. To the right of the listening room is an open kitchen with a bar - partial wall that opens up around chest level.

Here are some photos.

Listening room with reference speakers and my little helper taking measurements.



Shot showing open side to the right - kitchen area



Show showing left side of listening room, hallway opening to entrance to home.





Shot showing the listening couch with room behind it.



Here are some recent room measurements with the open baffle tower speakers only, no subs.





poseidonsvoice

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Re: Pulled the trigger on GIK - Am I missing anything?
« Reply #1 on: 9 Jun 2017, 03:04 pm »
Ron,

Please post low frequency measurements from about 10Hz up to 300 Hz, without any smoothing whatsoever (no 1/3 octave stuff). Leave the waterfall out for now, let's just look at your frequency response/amplitude response. Also please make sure you post what each vertical division on your vertical scale represents...2 dB, 5 dB, 10 dB, whatever it is...or else it is hard to interpret your graph. Please mention which speakers you are measuring, your OB speakers or your OB speakers + OB subs. Getting really, really good at making baseline measurements with the mic at the listening position specifically for frequencies less than 300 Hz is terribly important as the dominant factor here is your room, which in your situation is somewhat squarish with egresses to the left and right of the listening position.  I would strongly recommend Room EQ Wizard.

Thank you,

Anand.

Vedder323

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Re: Pulled the trigger on GIK - Am I missing anything?
« Reply #2 on: 9 Jun 2017, 03:06 pm »
Ron,

Please post low frequency measurements from about 10Hz up to 300 Hz, without any smoothing whatsoever (no 1/3 octave stuff). Leave the waterfall out for now, let's just look at your frequency response/amplitude response. Also please make sure you post what each vertical division on your vertical scale represents...2 dB, 5 dB, 10 dB, whatever it is...or else it is hard to interpret your graph. Please mention which speakers you are mentioning, your OB speakers or your OB speakers + OB subs. Getting really, really good at making baseline measurements with the mic at the listening position specifically for frequencies less than 300 Hz is terribly important as the dominant factor here is your squarish room.  I would strongly recommend Room EQ Wizard.

Thank you,

Anand.

Hey bro!

Will do - ill knock out some new REQ measurements tonight or tomorrow and post them!

Also - ill be using both the mains and subs for reference listening but wanted to address them separately so ill post both measurements individually as we progress.


JWL.GIK

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Re: Pulled the trigger on GIK - Am I missing anything?
« Reply #3 on: 9 Jun 2017, 03:10 pm »
Agreed, REW allows you to provide much more useable test data.

Also, if you can, start with a room measurement of the empty room with no treatments, then re-measure with each stage of treatment you add. While I agree that the TriTraps will be an upgrade over the 244s, I'd be shocked if the 244s aren't helping. Bass trapping is as much about coverage area in the room as it is about individual trap effectiveness. Once you get the TriTraps in, you can repurpose the very versatile 244s in a different location so they can continue to help.  :thumb:

As you experiment with the new treatments and moving things around, this article might help you identify what to listen for during your testing & installation:
http://www.gikacoustics.com/learning-to-listen-acoustics-the-listening-experience/

Vedder323

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Re: Pulled the trigger on GIK - Am I missing anything?
« Reply #4 on: 10 Jun 2017, 12:33 am »
Ron,

Please post low frequency measurements from about 10Hz up to 300 Hz, without any smoothing whatsoever (no 1/3 octave stuff). Leave the waterfall out for now, let's just look at your frequency response/amplitude response. Also please make sure you post what each vertical division on your vertical scale represents...2 dB, 5 dB, 10 dB, whatever it is...or else it is hard to interpret your graph. Please mention which speakers you are measuring, your OB speakers or your OB speakers + OB subs. Getting really, really good at making baseline measurements with the mic at the listening position specifically for frequencies less than 300 Hz is terribly important as the dominant factor here is your room, which in your situation is somewhat squarish with egresses to the left and right of the listening position.  I would strongly recommend Room EQ Wizard.

Thank you,

Anand.

As instructed here we go.



No bass traps installed on the walls. Speakers are in reference position, 6 feet into the room. 

jtwrace

Re: Pulled the trigger on GIK - Am I missing anything?
« Reply #5 on: 10 Jun 2017, 12:37 am »
I was wondering what happened to you.  I see in the first picture what happened.   :P

poseidonsvoice

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Re: Pulled the trigger on GIK - Am I missing anything?
« Reply #6 on: 10 Jun 2017, 02:13 am »
Ron,

What is the green and red trace? Individual responses? Ok. Good.

Now take a measurement with the mains playing at the same time from 10-300 Hz.

Best,
Anand.

Vedder323

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Re: Pulled the trigger on GIK - Am I missing anything?
« Reply #7 on: 10 Jun 2017, 02:43 am »
Ron,

What is the green and red trace? Individual responses? Ok. Good.

Now take a measurement with the mains playing at the same time from 10-300 Hz.

Best,
Anand.

Yes sir!

Here you go,




poseidonsvoice

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Re: Pulled the trigger on GIK - Am I missing anything?
« Reply #8 on: 10 Jun 2017, 03:00 am »
Ron,

Coming right along. Good.

I want you to start moving your main speakers around, front to back, side to side, while also measuring them just the way you have. Try to see if you can make it look smoother. Do what you can to move them, but without compromising imaging or staging. If you can't move them much and the measurement above is what we have to work with, fine. No big deal. But a few inches here and there can make marked differences.

After you have done that, then place the Tritraps in the front corners or 244's (if you don't have the Tritraps) and post those measurements.

Don't despair, I'm not the least bit surprised by your peaks and valleys from 40 Hz to 150 hz as this is the modal region which will look like that in all rooms that are untreated or do not have multiple sub implementation. The area from 100-300hz will also be highly influenced by the distance of your mains to the side walls, front wall, ceiling and floor - it is called SBIR or the Allison effect. Read about it here: http://arqen.com/acoustics-101/speaker-placement-boundary-interference/

100-300 Hz is difficult to get right. It will require room treatment (those Tritraps, 244's, etc...), proper loudspeaker positioning (as mentioned above), sometimes EQ and rarely broadband subs or mid bass modules can help, but that is extraordinarily tricky to implement without risking localization.

Calculate all the room modes for your room here, use approximate dimensions since your room dimensions are a little quirky: http://amroc.andymel.eu

as it is educational and may not apply to your room since yours is not perfectly rectangular. Read this for more on that subject: http://www.acousticfrontiers.com/room-modes-101/

Best of luck,

Anand.
« Last Edit: 22 Jun 2017, 03:01 pm by poseidonsvoice »

Hipper

Re: Pulled the trigger on GIK - Am I missing anything?
« Reply #9 on: 10 Jun 2017, 10:26 am »
Just an aside!

I notice your Tri-traps are sitting on something. It might be worth measuring to see if they perform better when on the floor, and also using a pair in each front corner - one on top of the other (you said you got four but I can only see two in the pics).

poseidonsvoice

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Re: Pulled the trigger on GIK - Am I missing anything?
« Reply #10 on: 10 Jun 2017, 01:04 pm »
Just an aside!

I notice your Tri-traps are sitting on something. It might be worth measuring to see if they perform better when on the floor, and also using a pair in each front corner - one on top of the other (you said you got four but I can only see two in the pics).

Read the OP's 1st paragraph again. Those treatments in the front corners are 244's. He's ordered Tritraps and Gobos from GIK. They will probably take a week to arrive.

Best,
Anand.

danvprod

Re: Pulled the trigger on GIK - Am I missing anything?
« Reply #11 on: 11 Jun 2017, 12:02 pm »
We have similar-sized space and speakers. My room is 14'6 x 16' and speakers are Super Vs. I think the tri-traps will be a nice upgrade. The 2x12s really energize the room and my FR from 20-300 looks surprising similar to yours. I have four of the soffit bass traps currently and am still feeling like I am needing more. Looking forward to your continued experimentation and reporting on what works for your room.

Rivalaudio

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Re: Pulled the trigger on GIK - Am I missing anything?
« Reply #12 on: 11 Jun 2017, 05:17 pm »
Na
« Last Edit: 12 Jun 2017, 01:16 am by Rivalaudio »

JWL.GIK

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Re: Pulled the trigger on GIK - Am I missing anything?
« Reply #13 on: 13 Jun 2017, 07:52 pm »
Good advice so far. Because your room is open in some spots, the bass response is a bit less predictable. This listening test will help you find areas of bass buildup -- those are great spots to put bass traps if you can. Pay attention to pretty much all corners, walls, and nooks & crannies of the room....

http://gikacoustics.com/video-testing-corner-bass-trap-placement/

Vedder323

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Re: Pulled the trigger on GIK - Am I missing anything?
« Reply #14 on: 22 Jun 2017, 02:10 pm »
Traps arrived in safety. Time to figure out the best placement for the older 244 traps, open to ideas, suggestions and expertise. Ill be using the taller Gobos for 1st reflections.





poseidonsvoice

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Re: Pulled the trigger on GIK - Am I missing anything?
« Reply #15 on: 22 Jun 2017, 02:44 pm »
How about the wall behind the listening position? A mixture of diffusion and absorption on the back wall is a good thing. You can use them on the front wall too, but a mixed absorber/diffusor on the front wall would be great given that you have open bafflish speakers.

244's are also good wherever two or more walls are meeting, i.e. corners; floor/front wall section; ceiling/front wall; and on the back wall similarly.

Fool around and let us know!

Love the red!

Best,
Anand.

bpape

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Re: Pulled the trigger on GIK - Am I missing anything?
« Reply #16 on: 22 Jun 2017, 03:46 pm »
I would agree with either rear corners or centered behind you on the rear wall.  Another option is for your ceiling reflection zone.

Vedder323

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Re: Pulled the trigger on GIK - Am I missing anything?
« Reply #17 on: 22 Jun 2017, 03:52 pm »
As you guys can see in the previous pictures, the wall behind me is a little tricky as it opens into another room. Would you say setting the traps on the ground right behind the couch would still provide benefits or should I consider creating a fake wall for them to hang on? Ideas?




poseidonsvoice

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Re: Pulled the trigger on GIK - Am I missing anything?
« Reply #18 on: 22 Jun 2017, 03:54 pm »
Draw a line from your speakers directly to the listening position. Look up at the ceiling, that is your ceiling reflection line. Treat it and be happy. Minimum of 3 inch thickness there.

Fake walls are cool, but play with it and tell us how your soundstage changes. Try to avoid upsetting the SWMBO!  :wink:

Best,
Anand.

Vedder323

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Re: Pulled the trigger on GIK - Am I missing anything?
« Reply #19 on: 22 Jun 2017, 04:06 pm »
Draw a line from your speakers directly to the listening position. Look up at the ceiling, that is your ceiling reflection line. Treat it and be happy. Minimum of 3 inch thickness there.

Fake walls are cool, but play with it and tell us how your soundstage changes. Try to avoid upsetting the SWMBO!  :wink:

Best,
Anand.

Ceiling is an interesting idea and makes sense to me. I could even talk the wife into ditching that fan as we rarely use it. Are the cloud mounting brackets the way to go for this application?

http://www.gikacoustics.com/product/acoustic-panel-ceiling-cloud-mounting-brackets/