Belden 8402 IC

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WireNut

Re: Belden 8402 IC
« Reply #120 on: 19 Jun 2017, 09:49 am »

Not a problem... they serve 2 different functions, the signal is only the signal but the ground also carries ground currents due to differences in potential between the grounds of the components it connects. The voltage of the noise caused by these currents is dependent on the ground wire's resistance due to Ohm's law, V=IR, and possibly also by the power cable's ground depending on the component's grounding scheme, but either way it's a benefit to use a heavy gauge ground conductor in order to reduce noise as much as possible.

The gauge of the signal wire will make an audible difference and I'd suggest not using wire heavier than 24g and combining multiple runs into one larger gauge wire. 2-3 runs of 26-24g solid-core wire will work out well for signal and for ground I'd use at least double that, but the more the better. FWIW my D3/4 uses 6 runs of wire for ground making for a pretty robust ground connection.


What I don't understand is why Kimber (and others) use 2 wires for ground. Is it just to get a larger ground or does it serve another purpose?
I can't help but wonder if an interconnect that only uses 1 hot wire and 1 ground wire and NO SHIELD would work.
My system is so quite now it makes me think I don't need an interconnect with a shield at all.
Damn, it looks like I've got another DIY project coming up. 5 pairs of 3 wire braid interconnects $$$.
 

Speedskater

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Re: Belden 8402 IC
« Reply #121 on: 19 Jun 2017, 12:07 pm »
Both the Mogami 2534 and the Belden 8402 are microphone cables. That means that they are optimized for flexibility and handling abuse. The Mogami 2534 is a star-quad cable also optimized for harsh electrical noise environments.
For balanced XLR interconnects in a home situation, both will sound exactly the same.
Misused for RCA unbalanced interconnects, all bets are off.

bacobits1

Re: Belden 8402 IC
« Reply #122 on: 19 Jun 2017, 12:22 pm »
 :scratch:
I won't bother.

DaveC113

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Re: Belden 8402 IC
« Reply #123 on: 19 Jun 2017, 02:55 pm »
What I don't understand is why Kimber (and others) use 2 wires for ground. Is it just to get a larger ground or does it serve another purpose?
I can't help but wonder if an interconnect that only uses 1 hot wire and 1 ground wire and NO SHIELD would work.
My system is so quite now it makes me think I don't need an interconnect with a shield at all.
Damn, it looks like I've got another DIY project coming up. 5 pairs of 3 wire braid interconnects $$$.

3 wire + allows for braiding so the wires can have a different geometry vs being side-by-side in a twisted pair the whole run.

If you're curious make a twisted pair vs a 3-strand braid and see what you think... and yes a simple twisted pair with no shield will work fine, and imo, be superior to a coax cable most of the time in a home system especially if you use high quality wire. Try adding a shield to your twisted pair and see what happens to the sound.

Even if you think your system has "no noise", it does and when it's reduced further you'll experience an increase in resolution and a better sound stage.


maxima95

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Re: Belden 8402 IC
« Reply #124 on: 19 Jun 2017, 06:13 pm »
I love the Belden's.  I decided to keep them in my system and give the Parsec's to my son.  They are crystal clear, black background, more so than the Parsec's.  No brightness and no sibilants like bluejean cables.  I would say that they are on par if not better than my Audioquest Columbia 72v DBS XLR's.  I bought mine here-

https://btpa.com/IC8402XLR-XX.html

I do not notice any recessed midrange.  They are a very balanced (no pun intended) sounding cable.

Thank you for the information.

Speedskater

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Re: Belden 8402 IC
« Reply #125 on: 20 Jun 2017, 01:27 am »
A 3 wire balanced interconnect cable is a relic left over from decades ago. Then Neil Muncy wrote about Shield Current Induced Noise. That third wire or a foil and drain wire just add noise.
Now good balanced interconnect cable is either Shielded Twisted Pair (STP) with a braided shield or Cat5 or 6 (more often unshielded).
In either good cable, symmetry of both conductors from end-to-end is very important. It takes big expensive machines and a good quality control department to make good interconnect cables.

jtwrace

Re: Belden 8402 IC
« Reply #126 on: 20 Jun 2017, 02:04 am »
It takes big expensive machines and a good quality control department to make good interconnect cables.
Are you sure?  I've read on multiple forums that some guys sell hand braided high end cables.  How could they do such a thing otherwise?

WireNut

Re: Belden 8402 IC
« Reply #127 on: 20 Jun 2017, 02:36 am »

A 3 wire balanced interconnect cable is a relic left over from decades ago. Then Neil Muncy wrote about Shield Current Induced Noise. That third wire or a foil and drain wire just add noise.
Now good balanced interconnect cable is either Shielded Twisted Pair (STP) with a braided shield or Cat5 or 6 (more often unshielded).
In either good cable, symmetry of both conductors from end-to-end is very important. It takes big expensive machines and a good quality control department to make good interconnect cables.


« Last Edit: 20 Jun 2017, 06:34 am by WireNut »

G Georgopoulos

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Re: Belden 8402 IC
« Reply #128 on: 20 Jun 2017, 03:04 am »
Speedskater,

I read your post and link about DC offset on mains power. Thank you.

I agree that a 3 wire braid may be a relic from the past, however, for unbalanced interconnects getting rid of the shield maybe positive.
As I've stated previously I've built many interconnects using several Belden cables balanced and unbalanced over the years.

What I have determined is that I don't need a shield for unbalanced interconnects.

I'm about to shit-can all my Belden interconnects using 8412,1694A,9207,9463,89207, and 89259 for a 3-wire braid without a shield.

I'm only going to do this one more time. Foreclosure on my home isn't an option.

Here's the plan, unbalanced only, much like Kimber's Hero I think  :scratch:.

(1) 20-18 gauge solid or strained silver wire for the hot, Undecided.
(2) OFC copper wires for the ground.

Note* What I have read is not to have the (2) ground wires larger then the signal Hot.

I do not want a shield at all.

Opinions please. Lay it on me.

You got to be kidding!, unbalanced ICs without a shield,twisted won't be good at HF either.MHO

bacobits1

Re: Belden 8402 IC
« Reply #129 on: 20 Jun 2017, 10:22 am »
Speedskater
Just what does your system consist of?
What perfect wires are you using?
No one has  asked.

Speedskater

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Re: Belden 8402 IC
« Reply #130 on: 20 Jun 2017, 01:14 pm »
Speedskater
Just what does your system consist of?
What perfect wires are you using?
No one has  asked.
I only write about good engineering practice, not this system or that.

Speedskater

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Re: Belden 8402 IC
« Reply #131 on: 20 Jun 2017, 01:20 pm »
Are you sure?  I've read on multiple forums that some guys sell hand braided high end cables.  How could they do such a thing otherwise?
They may be expensive, but they are far from high-end.
They do it, because they make money doing it.
For short length cables the need for high quality is much lower than in pro audio.
* * * * * * * * * * *
Down in the 'AES Papers' area, are several pro-audio cable test papers.
http://www.audiosystemsgroup.com/publish.htm

maxima95

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Re: Belden 8402 IC
« Reply #132 on: 20 Jun 2017, 02:10 pm »
I only write about good engineering practice, not this system or that.

Presumably your system and cabling reflect the application of good engineering practice.  We would like to be enlightened.

That said, all you really do is denigrate what does not fall within your view of the world and site the writing of others.

rollo

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Re: Belden 8402 IC
« Reply #133 on: 20 Jun 2017, 02:17 pm »
  Yes listen to any well engineered cable. What the cable sounds like in your system is the determining factor. IMHO the speaker cable and its relationship with the amp and speaker [ LCR] is most overlooked in our hobby. Measurements count in design and overall performance for sure, PERIOD.
  However the end result will always be how they sound in ones system. Have fun trying but base your choices on sound engineering then sonic merrits of such.


charles

bacobits1

Re: Belden 8402 IC
« Reply #134 on: 20 Jun 2017, 02:41 pm »
Quote
I only write about good engineering practice, not this system or that.

Well that's a cop out. Most engineers don't believe in differences a cable can make in sound.
That's where the big debate comes in.
This isn't an engineering board the proof is in the listening.
CAT 5-6 for audio? Coax is the best?
Entitled to your opinion, name specifics.

Put you on the ignore list.

Speedskater

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Re: Belden 8402 IC
« Reply #135 on: 20 Jun 2017, 03:23 pm »
Engineers are well aware that there are differences in cables. My link above has some papers measuring some of those differences. There is paper after paper and book after book about making good cables.

Now if I were to setup a new system (in any price range and either home hi-fi or pro audio), all the interconnects would come from Belden, Canare, Mogami or BJC.

Elizabeth

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Re: Belden 8402 IC
« Reply #136 on: 20 Jun 2017, 03:48 pm »
What I don't understand is why Kimber (and others) use 2 wires for ground. Is it just to get a larger ground or does it serve another purpose?
I can't help but wonder if an interconnect that only uses 1 hot wire and 1 ground wire and NO SHIELD would work.

A twisted pair is all one requires. The three wire Kimber is so they can weave the wire. Takes at least 3 wires to make it a weave... As for two ground. I would think Kimber actually listened to the results of two main, one ground, vs two ground and found it sounded better? KImber offers three wire braid in bulk, and various four wire braided in bulk.

A shield is not required for most audio level signals. specially since the standard has move up to pro 2v vs the old audio gear 0.5 volts.
The one place an audiophile might need a shield is on phono cables, since that signal is pretty small voltage.
The Belden was made for microphones, which are also pretty low level signals.

I have used the three wire braid Kimber (PBJ series Kimber) in a 7 meter run, without any problems.

I have no beef with the cheap IC If they sound good to you, then that is all you need.
I have $500 worth of KImber four braid wire I was going to use sitting in the closet. And another 200 ft of Belden 8402.. Dozens of pairs or various RCA in the electrical tool chest.
I guess I am ready for the IC apocalypse?
Anyway, I have moved on... Now I use $1,000 a meter Kimber. It just is worth it. TO ME.

G Georgopoulos

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Re: Belden 8402 IC
« Reply #137 on: 20 Jun 2017, 10:57 pm »
A twisted pair is all one requires.

A shield is not required for most audio level signals. specially since the standard has move up to pro 2v vs the old audio gear 0.5 volts.
The one place an audiophile might need a shield is on phono cables, since that signal is pretty small voltage.


disagree,shield is required to protect againts EMI/RFI, the only protection of the input is a shield,in some locations no shield might work,but to be sure it is required,whithout a shield is like leaving your house unlocked you never know when an intruder will strike.

G Georgopoulos

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Re: Belden 8402 IC
« Reply #138 on: 21 Jun 2017, 02:50 am »
Engineers are well aware that there are differences in cables. My link above has some papers measuring some of those differences. There is paper after paper and book after book about making good cables.

Now if I were to setup a new system (in any price range and either home hi-fi or pro audio), all the interconnects would come from Belden, Canare, Mogami or BJC.

unity gain makes a difference?, cable L and C make a difference?, cable R makes a difference?

1- unity gain, no way it makes a difference,all the gain is done by the amp.
2- cable L and C, I have tested many cheap and expensive cables and there has been
no phase shift or frequency response issues,so no they don't make a difference,could be,
there would be very cheap cables(rubbish) that would make my conclusion invalid but hey
they exist because they are dead cheap.
3- cable R, no , because if there is a drop in signal , the amp has all the power to put it back up

conclusion, a good cable is about quality and reliability

Letitroll98

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Re: Belden 8402 IC
« Reply #139 on: 21 Jun 2017, 08:18 am »
Then explain why cables sound different.