The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread

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jeffreybehr

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Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
« Reply #20 on: 26 Feb 2016, 11:07 pm »
I think I may have slightly diverted the purpose of this thread with my inquiry to Danny about the line arrays so let me see if I can get it back on track. I am an owner of the Super-7’s.  Great; we've found four now.  :-)

I bought the used pair that was for sale a little over a year ago mentioned in the thread prior to this one (Super-7s how are they doing?). My pair are a darker shade of silver than Jeffrey’s. I bought them purely on reputation and some input from other Audiocircle members that heard them at RMAF and could compare them to speakers I am familiar with. I have never bought any piece of audio equipment in this manner before but fortunately for me I am very happy I did so – I  remember wishing I had pursued purchasing a pair when they were initially sold after the RMAF show. Well I got my second opportunity and jumped all over it.

It’s a little embarrassing to say I still have not determined their optimum position yet but that’s mainly because when I sit down to listen I prefer to listen than spend time fooling around with positioning. The sound I am getting exceeds any set-up I have had prior to the Super-7’s. I have the speakers sitting on unspiked Sound Anchor bases I had made for previous speakers to allow me to slide them around to experiment with positioning when I get the itch to do so. I have a 15W x 24L room with cathedral ceiling and carpet. The speakers are about 9 feet from the front wall and about 3.5 feet from the side walls. Currently I am using a near field set-up (8 foot equilateral triangle). I have GIK soffit bass traps in the corners behind the speakers and GIK Monster Traps and PI Audio Diffusers on the wall between the soffit traps. Thanks to Danny for the PI Audio diffuser recommendation – they work very well with these speakers. I have tried both Monster Traps and diffusers at the first reflection points on the side walls with no audible impact at all. I was fortunate enough to acquire a used Spatial Audio Black Hole a year and a half ago which does an admirable job of cleaning up the bass. If anyone out there has one they are willing to sell I would be interested in acquiring a second one.

I have a Marantz Reference SA7 CD player, SC11S1 preamp, and SM11S1 stereo amplifier all resting in a HRS SXR rack with M3X isolation bases. Power supply is provided by a RGPC 240V substation, 400S PLC, and power cords. Servo amps are plugged into wall receptacles on a circuit separate from the substation. I have Zenwave D4 interconnect cables and BEL speaker cables.

So here is what I’d like to ask the Super-7 owners out there. How much toe-in do you have on your speakers? Mine are toed so that I can barely see any of the inner sides of the inner panels.  I guess the tweeters intersect just a few feet behind my head.

Where are your speakers with respect to your listening room size and listening position? My room is 21' wide and 19' deep.  I sit maybe 4' from the back wall; the rear of the speakers' panels are about 5' from the front wall.  The inside edges of the speakers are about 9' apart and there's probably 5' to the outside of each system.  I sit about 10' away from the line of the speakers.  Because of the 8-1/2'-wide screen between the speakers, my soundstage is, generally, wider than deeper but with no hole in the middle.

Have you experimented with SS and tube electronics on your speakers and which do you prefer?  I've driven mine with both plus a hybrid.   Coincident Frankensteins (note 1) had enough power for me but sounded edgy, probably the result of their cheap Solen 'propylene main-powersupply caps and gobs of magnetic wire and other parts in them.  WAVAC 805-based SETs (2) were more powerful and NOT edgy or unattractive in any way, but they sounded simply boring.  Nelson Pass's First Watt J2 (3) amps sounded excellent.  I had (with Pass's advice and approval) wired the 2 channels of each amp into parallel, resulting in a pair of monoamps with 25 Watts into 8 and 50 into 4, per chassis.  They were very detailed, smooth, and attractive sounding.

My current amp, purchased when I was using the 87dB-(in)sensitive Audio Physic Avanti IIIs, is a conrad-johnson ET250S, a hybrid stereo amp rated at 250WPC into 8 and 400WPC into 4.  I love the overall sounds of this amp so much I left it in the system when I reinstalled the S7s this January.

With the three lower-power amps, I used no line-level hi-pass filter(4), but with more than 400WPC available (short-term), I now use a pair of caps (0.01uF each of SoniCap Platinum and Jupiter Copper Foil Paper'n'Wax) creating a high-pass filter at c. 110Hz.  These caps are barely visible as part of the input jacks, added volume pot, jumpercables, and blue-and-orange wiring at the rear of the amp.  Here's a better pic.



Jeffrey – where do you have your Rythmik F15HP 15"-driver subwoofers set up in your room?  They're just forward of the back wall, left and right of the listening position.  They're set for true subwoofing, that being bottom octave and below, with the LP filter set at 25Hz.  See
http://www.avsforum.com/forum/113-subwoofers-bass-transducers/1214550-official-rythmik-audio-subwoofer-thread-761.html , post 22823 and
http://www.avsforum.com/forum/113-subwoofers-bass-transducers/1214550-official-rythmik-audio-subwoofer-thread-762.html
...post 22833.

(1) 300B-based 8-Watt SET monoamps
(2) the $21K per pair version
(3) 15WPC-into-8 stereo amps that use only JFETs as transistors.  See http://www.firstwatt.com/j2.html
(4) I remember asking Danny what filter point I should use on a high-pass filter with these smaller amps.  We went back and forth with him answering every number I offered to him (as in 200Hz?  100Hz?  50Hz?  25Hz?  None at all?) with an 'OK'.  I believe he then said something like my low-power amps were not able to overdrive the panels, so it didn't much matter.
« Last Edit: 4 Mar 2016, 04:37 am by jeffreybehr »

bernardo

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Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
« Reply #21 on: 27 Feb 2016, 02:04 am »
I reread your post but didn't see your preamp mentioned. What are you using? Do you prefer the CJ ET250s over the First Watt J2s?

jeffreybehr

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Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
« Reply #22 on: 27 Feb 2016, 05:42 am »
I reread your post but didn't see your preamp mentioned. What are you using? Do you prefer the CJ ET250s over the First Watt J2s?

Preamp is a much-improved c-j MET1, a six-channel, all-tubes unit that I LOVE.  Your second question is more difficult to answer.  I certainly love the sounds of the ET250s so much I don't want to bother returning the J2s into the system.  So yes, I guess I do prefer the ET250S to the J2, but it might be due to pure laziness.
« Last Edit: 27 Feb 2016, 08:48 pm by jeffreybehr »

mikeeastman

Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
« Reply #23 on: 1 Mar 2016, 09:14 pm »
I own the pair that was  first shown at RMAF. They have the old style wave guides. I’ve upgraded all the caps ( except the notch filters which is the next upgrade I plan ) to Juniper Copper Foil and mounted them on 2"maple slaps with Mapleshade brass footersand rewired the x-over and speakers with Jupiter cotton covered copper, which has made a very nice inprovment.
 My room is 22’x30’ with one end being half an octagon ( in my gallery is a diagram of the room, it’s in the acoustic circle album ) the speaker are located 15’ from back wall, 6’ from side wall, 8.5’ apart and 12’-13 from LP. Right now I have with a 9 degree toe in, but I’m still playing with it. The sub is centered between speakers. The room has Jeff Hedback designed acoustical treatment along with some diy treatments.

I have a modified Mac Mini, exasound e20 dac, Modded Ncore400 dual mono amp, cables are Mapleshade and TWL PC on the subs. All source equipment runs off battery and the amps are on 2 dedicated circuits that come straight off the output of my inverter using #8 cryoed wire.

I’m working on a balanced tube buffer based on a Gary Dodd design that I hope to have finished and burned in by end of the month.






bernardo

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Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
« Reply #24 on: 1 Mar 2016, 11:01 pm »
Wow - nice set-up and what a great sized room for your system. I feel a little outclassed by you guys in that I have not done anything to the crossovers, mainly because I haven't ever attempted this kind of project. Both you and Jeffrey have skills I would like to acquire. I'm going to attempt to put Danny on the spot here - do your pair of Super-7s have the original passive crossovers or have you changed them since they were built?

Danny Richie

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Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
« Reply #25 on: 1 Mar 2016, 11:07 pm »
Wow - nice set-up and what a great sized room for your system. I feel a little outclassed by you guys in that I have not done anything to the crossovers, mainly because I haven't ever attempted this kind of project. Both you and Jeffrey have skills I would like to acquire. I'm going to attempt to put Danny on the spot here - do your pair of Super-7s have the original passive crossovers or have you changed them since they were built?

My pair has what I fell like are the best parts for the job.

jeffreybehr

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Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
« Reply #26 on: 1 Mar 2016, 11:20 pm »
My pair has what I fell like are the best parts for the job.

And you're not telling what those parts are, huh?

 :?

jeffreybehr

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Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
« Reply #27 on: 2 Mar 2016, 12:05 am »
I own the pair that was  first shown at RMAF. They have the old style wave guides.





Welcome, Mike.  Your crossovers look very well isolated and stable.  Beyond this...


...I haven't had the ambition to move beyond adding Dynamat Ext. to the 4 granite plates.  But there's a lot done so far.  The tweeter hi-pass cap is ALL SoniCap Platinums*; the MR-shunt cap is now 13uF of SoniCap-Is** plus 2uF of Platinums, soon to be replaced with 10.5uF of SoniCap-Is and 4.5uF of Platinums, and the MR-comp. network cap is 56uF of SoniCap-Is plus a 0.33uF Platinum, with the latter soon to be replaced by a 0.47uF Platinum (just because I have them and need to use them in something before I get smarter than I am right now and QUIT this foolishness.)  :roll:  The tweeter-shunt coil is now a Goertz/Bridgeport copper-foil, and I have same-type coils to replace the other two.  I also have Neotec UPOCC-in-Teflon solid wire, copper and silver, to replace all wiring.


* The Platinums are made of Teflon-alloy film and tinfoil
** SoniCap Gen. Is are metalized polypropylene

Ric Schultz

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Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
« Reply #28 on: 2 Mar 2016, 02:18 am »
A bigger difference will be to change the 16 gauge Erse coils to copper foil wax Jantzens......way, way better.  Use the 12 gauge ones for the mid range and 16 gauge ones for the tweeter.  Go into the inside of the coil and out the outside....much better sound this way.  I know Danny does not like the Janztens but I have A/Bed the Erse coils versus the Jantzen wax foils and the wax foils are in another whole league.  Way more information, low level detail, faster, more dynamic.....just plain more real.  This was used and tested on my own speaker that uses a single Neo 10 and a single Neo 3 on an open baffle (fantastic sound, by the way).  I am using a Sonic cap with WA Quantum chip on it for the tweeter series cap.....bypassed by Jupiter copper foil .1 and my modified Wima .15 cap.  The cap on the midrange circuit is a Rike cap bypassed by a Jupiter copper foil.  Wire is Neotech 14 and 20 gauge litz braid wire.  Ground Enhancer hardwired in as well.  Everything hardwired.....right into the amplifier.






bernardo

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Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
« Reply #29 on: 2 Mar 2016, 12:00 pm »
Ric-
Would you mind sharing what preamp and amp you are using with your speakers? Since you state you have a similar design with the Neo drivers just looking for another data point for what type (SS versus tubes) of equipment different users have in their set-up.

Danny Richie

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Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
« Reply #30 on: 2 Mar 2016, 01:56 pm »
Yeah, I am not  fan of the Jantzen inductors. I know for fact that they are made in China with recycled Copper and are only 94 to 96% Copper. The rest is just trash. My experience with them is a muddy sound. The Erse inductors sound much cleaner. And if you want a good foil inductor the Alpha Core or Erse foil inductors are very nice.

jtwrace

Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
« Reply #31 on: 2 Mar 2016, 01:58 pm »
Yeah, I am not  fan of the Jantzen inductors. I know for fact that they are made in China with recycled Copper and are only 94 to 96% Copper. The rest is just trash. My experience with them is a muddy sound.
Maybe two wrongs make a right in this case?   :dunno:

Danny Richie

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Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
« Reply #32 on: 2 Mar 2016, 02:10 pm »
I compared the Jantzen to the same gauge Erse and it was really no comparison. So I couldn't find anything "right" about the Jantzen coils. They sounded a lot like an iron core inductor to me. They sounded kind of smeared and muddy.

They are the lowest cost inductors out there for a reason. Recycled Copper mixed to low purity is much less expensive to produce. Even after shipping them from China to Europe and then to the US and with duty added to them and shipping costs from around the world they are still cheaper. And raw materials like Copper cost the same everywhere. So typically China or any other country has no cost advantage over the US.

jtwrace

Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
« Reply #33 on: 2 Mar 2016, 03:29 pm »
They sounded kind of smeared and muddy.
Most like that though.  That's sounds tube like.   :P

Danny Richie

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Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
« Reply #34 on: 2 Mar 2016, 03:56 pm »
Most like that though.  That's sounds tube like.   :P

Not my tubes.

londonbarn

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Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
« Reply #35 on: 2 Mar 2016, 05:57 pm »
Yeah, mine neither.... No muddy sounds from my  EAR V-20...  no siree...

ebag4

Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
« Reply #36 on: 2 Mar 2016, 06:06 pm »
Not my tubes.
Not my tubes either.  If your tube amps are sounding muddy it's time to expand the your tube amp experience and find one that doesn't.

Best,
Ed

mlundy57

Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
« Reply #37 on: 2 Mar 2016, 07:10 pm »
It could also be the tubes and not the amp.

With the stock tubes, my PrimaLuna Prologue 4 has a nice warm, smooth sound but lacks a cleanness and detail that I know is there because I can hear it with my SS amps. After swapping the tubes for ones that are more articulate and detailed I got the cleanness and detail of the SS amps but still had the warmth and smoothness of the tube amps.

Mike

bdp24

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Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
« Reply #38 on: 2 Mar 2016, 08:20 pm »
Smeared, muddy, soft, and even warm are descriptions of the worst tube amps from the 60's and earlier. Good tube amp design left behind that sound decades ago, but that perception of tube sound persists amongst non-hardcore audiophiles. The adjectives used to describe the sound of late 60's and 70's solid state amps---hard, cold, brittle, etched---is likewise long gone from the sound of good ss amp design. The better each discipline has become, the more they sound alike. Still, each has it's own strengths and weaknesses, and each is best suited to different types of drivers and loudspeaker designs.

Ric Schultz

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Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
« Reply #39 on: 3 Mar 2016, 03:20 am »
Sorry Danny, you are wrong on this one.  I doubt that you listened to the new wax foils....you probably listened to the ones that have film inside.  These use paper and wax.  They completely destroy the sound of the Erse coils you use in all your speakers.  Exactly the opposite of what you said.  The Erse coils sound muddy, muddy and more muddy.  The Wax foils sound glorious.  I trust my ears.  Maybe Mike or Jeff will try them and report back....folks, trust your ears....not someone elses.  Again, these are the new WAX and PAPER coil foils that have only been available for a couple of years.  I have never tried the older film ones.  Why would I use a coil that sounds worse?  No way would I ever go back to the Erse 16 gauge super cheap coils.  They don't pass half the info.

Bye the way, Parts Express (the Jantzen dealer) does not carry many values and none of the 12 gauge that you would want for the midrange.  You must custom order them from Parts Express....depending on when they place their orders could take as long as 2 months.  You can get right away a 16 gauge to try on the tweeter......but the midrange one is the glory one......makes more difference.

These coils cost considerably more than the 16 gauge Erse coils (especially the 12 gauge ones)....they are not cheap.

Before I tried these coils I tried the Jensen 12 gauge paper wax foil coils that I ordered directly from Denmark for about $160 delivered (2X .56mh).  These were really muddy as well (probably the super thick foil).......that is why I ordered the Jantzens to see if they were any good.......indeed they are.  The Jensens coils are used by Vapor Audio so I thought they must be good.  Trust no ones ears but your own.