BDA-3 DAC

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Servingthemusic.com

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Re: BDA-3 DAC
« Reply #80 on: 24 Dec 2015, 10:02 pm »
44, according to the list posted here:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AgVhKcl_3lHfdFVyenBBNjNpQ2lieG81WGpqQTNfVUE#gid=0

What other manufacturer's are offering is beside the point. I don't think it is unreasonable to expect that a manufacturer's top of the line DAC would be able to make full use of all the output capabilities of their top of the line digital player.

Regardless, I have ordered a BDA-3 and it will be paired with my 2nd IAD-upgraded BDP-2.

You have a point, but there are a number of reasons why DSD is better of USB.

And thanks for the link. More than I thought, for sure...although many of these are headphone/DACS/Pro models.

I have never been the biggest fan of USB. However, the one thing that does make it work is the fact the source must slave to the DAC, instead of the other way
around with SPDIF etc.

I have ordered a BDA-3 as well!!!

James Tanner

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Re: BDA-3 DAC
« Reply #81 on: 25 Dec 2015, 01:36 am »
Hi Folks,

The reason we do not offer DSD playback on the BDA-3 on the AES and COAX ‘inputs’ has to do with the sample rate converters currently available. DSD samples at much higher frequencies than PCM and current sample rate converters are not capable of operating at those higher frequencies. The BDA3 is a modular design and some new sample rate converters being developed now claim they will offer native high resolution PMC 352 and PMC 384 sample rate capability as well as DSD.  We will certainly look at them going forward and offer an upgrade if they perform better.

So to offer DSD on the AES or COAX inputs on the BDA-3 means you would have to bypass the sample rate converter on the AES or COAX inputs which would ‘increase jitter’ because our current sample converters in the BDA-3 reduce jitter on the input. 

So in Bryston’s case we definitely want the sample rate converter in the circuit for 44.1 to 192 PCM signals. Also some DAC’s we have looked at that are DSD capable on those inputs convert all the incoming sample rates (44,48,88,96,176,192Hz) to a very high single sample rate ‘Asynchronously’ whereas our preference with our DAC’s is to maintain the ‘Native’ incoming PCM sample rate throughout the conversion process with all PCM signals.  If we do up-sample we do it in a synchronous manner so (44.1 becomes 176.4 and 48 becomes 192) not asynchronous.

So the way USB works on the BDA-3 is we have a special input circuit that determines if the incoming signal is PCM or DSD and routes the signal to the appropriate input circuit. These are completely different circuit paths optimized for the different ways PCM and DSD are handled to optimize performance. So PCM from 44 to 384 is optimized as well as DSD DOP 64 and 128 and Native DSD 64 /128 and 356 (x1/x2/x4). 

We feel this is the best option currently and due to the modularity of the BDA-3 we can make changes going forward as better devices are developed but maintaining and optimizing the best ‘NATIVE’ playback (either PCM or DSD) is am important goal in our designs.

Hope this helps.

James

DarqueKnight

Re: BDA-3 DAC
« Reply #82 on: 25 Dec 2015, 02:50 am »
Thanks for the detailed explanation James.

scirica

Re: BDA-3 DAC
« Reply #83 on: 25 Dec 2015, 03:24 am »
Yes, great explanation. I'm probably ready to sell my PS Audio DS DAC and get the BDA-3. My BDA-2 was a great DAC but I really wanted one machine for both DSD and PCM. And I love the "native" signal path philosophy at Bryston.

Servingthemusic.com

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Re: BDA-3 DAC
« Reply #84 on: 25 Dec 2015, 04:14 am »
Hi Folks,

The reason we do not offer DSD playback on the BDA-3 on the AES and COAX ‘inputs’ has to do with the sample rate converters currently available. DSD samples at much higher frequencies than PCM and current sample rate converters are not capable of operating at those higher frequencies. The BDA3 is a modular design and some new sample rate converters being developed now claim they will offer native high resolution PMC 352 and PMC 384 sample rate capability as well as DSD.  We will certainly look at them going forward and offer an upgrade if they perform better.

So to offer DSD on the AES or COAX inputs on the BDA-3 means you would have to bypass the sample rate converter on the AES or COAX inputs which would ‘increase jitter’ because our current sample converters in the BDA-3 reduce jitter on the input. 

So in Bryston’s case we definitely want the sample rate converter in the circuit for 44.1 to 192 PCM signals. Also some DAC’s we have looked at that are DSD capable on those inputs convert all the incoming sample rates (44,48,88,96,176,192Hz) to a very high single sample rate ‘Asynchronously’ whereas our preference with our DAC’s is to maintain the ‘Native’ incoming PCM sample rate throughout the conversion process with all PCM signals.  If we do up-sample we do it in a synchronous manner so (44.1 becomes 176.4 and 48 becomes 192) not asynchronous.

So the way USB works on the BDA-3 is we have a special input circuit that determines if the incoming signal is PCM or DSD and routes the signal to the appropriate input circuit. These are completely different circuit paths optimized for the different ways PCM and DSD are handled to optimize performance. So PCM from 44 to 384 is optimized as well as DSD DOP 64 and 128 and Native DSD 64 /128 and 356 (x1/x2/x4). 

We feel this is the best option currently and due to the modularity of the BDA-3 we can make changes going forward as better devices are developed but maintaining and optimizing the best ‘NATIVE’ playback (either PCM or DSD) is am important goal in our designs.

Hope this helps.

James


Thank you sir!!! Counting the days!!!!

My plan is to use AES/EBU for PCM so I can take advantage of the upsampling and USB for DSD...when the ocassion arrises.

DarqueKnight

Re: BDA-3 DAC
« Reply #85 on: 26 Dec 2015, 02:54 am »
James,

What is the mains fuse size and timing for the BDA-3? I assume it is the same 500mA, 250V, slow blow, 5x20mm fuse used in the BDA-2, but the BDA-3 manual left this info out. I want to go ahead and order an audio grade fuse so it will be here when the BDA-3 arrives.

Yitshak

Re: BDA-3 DAC
« Reply #86 on: 26 Dec 2015, 08:31 am »
Thanks to all the educates post here by James and other members I was able to catch up some more knowledgeable Data to cope with what need this days from a music lover first who
Want to enjoy this latest innovations for the best.

Some of it gave me few days "migraine" going reading and catching some more knowledge
Regarding DSD that so far I didn't know.

I have a question though there are many input on the net for it,
I'm more interested in the bryston BDA3 aspect of it.

We can convert red books on the fly to DSD,in JRiver.
As I understand we don't change nothing in the data content but more to the way it "packed"
While sending it this way to the BDA3 DAC,more quantity but not different data.

That what I figure so far anyway.

We say the same with less bit (1 bit compare to 16 ) and more hertz (the way I understood it)



James,

The new BDA3 is modular And have separate hardware to handle the incoming PCM
Vs incoming DSD from what I understood.

For my better understanding,can it turn that the Redbook converted to DSD
Will benefit something Becouse of the different filters use on DSD audio D/A in  a way,
So the final convert stage will be implemented different in audible manner compare to PCM
is it something worth to explore with?


Hope the above make sense ,
I'm still newbie to this side of the music hobby.

James Tanner

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Re: BDA-3 DAC
« Reply #87 on: 26 Dec 2015, 11:22 am »
James,

What is the mains fuse size and timing for the BDA-3? I assume it is the same 500mA, 250V, slow blow, 5x20mm fuse used in the BDA-2, but the BDA-3 manual left this info out. I want to go ahead and order an audio grade fuse so it will be here when the BDA-3 arrives.

Hi

Not sure on that - email Mike at Bryston and he will know.  mpickett@bryston.com

james

James Tanner

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Re: BDA-3 DAC
« Reply #88 on: 26 Dec 2015, 11:43 am »
Thanks to all the educates post here by James and other members I was able to catch up some more knowledgeable Data to cope with what need this days from a music lover first who
Want to enjoy this latest innovations for the best.

Some of it gave me few days "migraine" going reading and catching some more knowledge
Regarding DSD that so far I didn't know.

I have a question though there are many input on the net for it,
I'm more interested in the bryston BDA3 aspect of it.

We can convert red books on the fly to DSD,in JRiver.
As I understand we don't change nothing in the data content but more to the way it "packed"
While sending it this way to the BDA3 DAC,more quantity but not different data.

That what I figure so far anyway.

We say the same with less bit (1 bit compare to 16 ) and more hertz (the way I understood it)



James,

The new BDA3 is modular And have separate hardware to handle the incoming PCM
Vs incoming DSD from what I understood.

For my better understanding,can it turn that the Redbook converted to DSD
Will benefit something Becouse of the different filters use on DSD audio D/A in  a way,
So the final convert stage will be implemented different in audible manner compare to PCM
is it something worth to explore with?


Hope the above make sense ,
I'm still newbie to this side of the music hobby.

Hi Yitshak

I am not sure there is a definitive answer to your question because some people feel DSD sounds more analog so resampling PCM to DSD like in JRIVER is preferred while others feel 1 BIT systems like DSD with their serious issues in high frequency filtering requirements are detrimental to performance and much prefer PCM. 

The tests I have run seem to be about 50/50.  Some DSD files I prefer when comparing to their PCM counter parts and in some cases the reverse I like the PCM version over the DSD. One of the issue I see is that a lot of DSD material available is in fact PCM material that is resampled to DSD and not DSD NATIVE recordings so it is hard to do an "apples to apples" comparison.  There are some DSD files that are true DSD like 2L and Blue Coast that I have tried and they sound excellent but these types of files are very limited. DSD can not be manipulated in the production stage (mixing and mastering etc.) the way PCM can and many people feel it will not be a popular format going forward but there does seem to be more interest in DSD and there are dedicated sights available to download NATIVE DSD files. 

One of the main problems I see and it was very evident to me even back when high resolution Redbook PCM files became available was people did not really know what they were listening too and how many different conversions the original file was subjected too.

So I guess to answer your question regarding converting Redbook files to DSD files is something some will prefer but so far I prefer to play the file in the NATIVE format it was recorded in - but thats just my opinion.

james


Yitshak

Re: BDA-3 DAC
« Reply #89 on: 26 Dec 2015, 12:15 pm »
Thanks James for the educated answer,as always :)

I understand it's kind of mix bag...but some files playing results can benefits from the DSD convertion not do to the convertion By itself but more do to the D/A way (PCM path or the DSD path).

Well,it's very nice we have the options.

And I'll try for my ears in do time to see how one turn compare
to the other on different music genre.

Itshak





audio.bill

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Re: BDA-3 DAC
« Reply #90 on: 26 Dec 2015, 01:11 pm »
James - Have you had a chance to do any further comparisons between DoP vs. native bitstream DSD? I'm very interested in your findings, TIA!

James Tanner

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Re: BDA-3 DAC
« Reply #91 on: 26 Dec 2015, 03:32 pm »
James - Have you had a chance to do any further comparisons between DoP vs. native bitstream DSD? I'm very interested in your findings, TIA!

Hi Bill,

I have not done a lot but so far with 3 people blind tested no obvious preference.

james


audio.bill

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Re: BDA-3 DAC
« Reply #92 on: 26 Dec 2015, 04:12 pm »
That's great, it shows that your engineering team did an excellent job in making the BDA-3's performance consistent independent of the DSD data format!

R. Daneel

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Re: BDA-3 DAC
« Reply #93 on: 27 Dec 2015, 11:03 am »
Hi Yitshak

I am not sure there is a definitive answer to your question because some people feel DSD sounds more analog so resampling PCM to DSD like in JRIVER is preferred while others feel 1 BIT systems like DSD with their serious issues in high frequency filtering requirements are detrimental to performance and much prefer PCM. 

The tests I have run seem to be about 50/50.  Some DSD files I prefer when comparing to their PCM counter parts and in some cases the reverse I like the PCM version over the DSD. One of the issue I see is that a lot of DSD material available is in fact PCM material that is resampled to DSD and not DSD NATIVE recordings so it is hard to do an "apples to apples" comparison.  There are some DSD files that are true DSD like 2L and Blue Coast that I have tried and they sound excellent but these types of files are very limited. DSD can not be manipulated in the production stage (mixing and mastering etc.) the way PCM can and many people feel it will not be a popular format going forward but there does seem to be more interest in DSD and there are dedicated sights available to download NATIVE DSD files. 

One of the main problems I see and it was very evident to me even back when high resolution Redbook PCM files became available was people did not really know what they were listening too and how many different conversions the original file was subjected too.

So I guess to answer your question regarding converting Redbook files to DSD files is something some will prefer but so far I prefer to play the file in the NATIVE format it was recorded in - but thats just my opinion.

james

Hi James!

In some cases, DSD is a continuation of the "high-res PCM" saga where 24 bit recordings are nothing but up-sampled 16 bit recordings sold at a higher price.

This certainly seems to be the case with performances that have been originally captured digitally. If the original data was 16 bit, then you cannot extract anything beyond those 16 bits. Take recordings done in between 1985 and 1995 for example. If they were digital recordings, they were 16 bit. If you see a high-res version of it today, you ought to be very suspicious about it.

The same logic applies to DSD and in my opinion, this is the main thing that people do not understand. A high-res sticker does not guarantee high resolution sound because the sticker is a specification that applies to equipment, not standards of recording quality. It's a travesty.

Cheers!
Antun

James Tanner

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Re: BDA-3 DAC
« Reply #94 on: 27 Dec 2015, 11:37 am »
Hi James!

In some cases, DSD is a continuation of the "high-res PCM" saga where 24 bit recordings are nothing but up-sampled 16 bit recordings sold at a higher price.

This certainly seems to be the case with performances that have been originally captured digitally. If the original data was 16 bit, then you cannot extract anything beyond those 16 bits. Take recordings done in between 1985 and 1995 for example. If they were digital recordings, they were 16 bit. If you see a high-res version of it today, you ought to be very suspicious about it.

The same logic applies to DSD and in my opinion, this is the main thing that people do not understand. A high-res sticker does not guarantee high resolution sound because the sticker is a specification that applies to equipment, not standards of recording quality. It's a travesty.

Cheers!
Antun

Hi

Yes I agree Antun - many people do not realize what in fact they are actually listening to. 

A quick story - when we first introduced the BDA-1 DAC one of the unique features (true of all our DACs) was the DAC would indicate what digital signal was 'coming in' from the source not what digital signal was 'going out' of the DAC.  I would get call after call from customers complaining that their source was playing a high resolution file (48 to 192) but the BDA-1 was indicating 44.1 sample rate.  I would assure them that the BDA-1 was not lying and after further investigation they did in fact find out their source was not outputting what they assumed it was. A good example where laptop computers which were downsampling the higher resolution digital signals in their operating systems.

I agree that it is sad that the 'label' has become the method to assess quality rather than the 'content'.

james

James Tanner

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Re: BDA-3 DAC
« Reply #95 on: 27 Dec 2015, 02:06 pm »
Steve

Heard about the tornados in Dallas - all OK with you?

james

R. Daneel

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Re: BDA-3 DAC
« Reply #96 on: 27 Dec 2015, 05:42 pm »
Hi

Yes I agree Antun - many people do not realize what in fact they are actually listening to. 

A quick story - when we first introduced the BDA-1 DAC one of the unique features (true of all our DACs) was the DAC would indicate what digital signal was 'coming in' from the source not what digital signal was 'going out' of the DAC.  I would get call after call from customers complaining that their source was playing a high resolution file (48 to 192) but the BDA-1 was indicating 44.1 sample rate.  I would assure them that the BDA-1 was not lying and after further investigation they did in fact find out their source was not outputting what they assumed it was. A good example where laptop computers which were downsampling the higher resolution digital signals in their operating systems.

I agree that it is sad that the 'label' has become the method to assess quality rather than the 'content'.

james

Hi James!

The first time I heard of Bryston was when I read a review of the BDA-1 in a Croatian edition of Hifi Choice magazine. One of the features that struck me at the time was the sampling rate display arrangement you speak of.

Technology has moved forward very slightly since then. I think you will agree that BDA-1, -2 and -3 were all designed with the same approach of high quality power supplies, discrete analog circuitry and functionality. Things that have changed have made it possible to support higher sampling rates and all of this is a good thing.

Howver, everyone would benefit if labels actually took the time to do proper remasters of the original recordings. This would be the best thing by far. Go back to the original master tape, calibrate the ReVox reel-to-reel, transfer it to highest resolution possible and then mix and master it. Very few labels do this and even then it is only with recordings that are considered special. It's a sad thing indeed.

Cheers!
Antun


scirica

Re: BDA-3 DAC
« Reply #97 on: 27 Dec 2015, 11:12 pm »
Steve

Heard about the tornados in Dallas - all OK with you?

james

James:

Sweet of you to ask. The damage and loss of life was to the east of us and our neighborhood came out fine, other than just very soggy. Kelly and I are in Cozumel for our Christmas break so we heard about it just as you did. Friends and family (including Kelly's daughter) are doing fine. Have to love Texas weather. Unpredictable!

doveman

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Re: BDA-3 DAC
« Reply #98 on: 28 Dec 2015, 12:20 am »
I think the sample rate indicator is a good idea, prior to my BDA-2 none of my dacs had this feature and it wasn't possible to know the real sample rate being played.

It is frustrating with all the nice gear available to still have very limited access to high quality files online, and even then you have to question their source. 

It seems ironic that the best way to access a "high quality file" is still just buy a cd and rip it in lossless format, unless its a particularly rare or old album in which case I will try and find a digital version.

scirica

Re: BDA-3 DAC
« Reply #99 on: 30 Dec 2015, 07:32 pm »
Oh Happy Day! I have a shiny new (black with blue lights) BDA-3 on the way to me!  I really loved my BDA-2 but wanted something that accepted DSD without conversion to PCM. I had originally placed a pre-order for the BDA-3 but backed out and picked up a PS Audio Directstream DAC from a local dealer. After reading all the positive reviews about the AKM chips and the Bryston implementation in particular I had to get one.

I really like the BDA-3 two path design for PCM and DSD as opposed to the PS Audio converting everything to DSD. It will be an interesting side by side comparison upon arrival.