Peter's Super Alnico Monitors with matching powered woofers

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pstrisik

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Re: Peter's Super Alnico Monitors with matching powered woofers
« Reply #40 on: 29 Jan 2016, 02:42 am »
If these were at the recent CES being exhibited by almost anyone but Louis, they'd be $50,000 a pair.  Just check out Stereophile's coverage of CES 2016 and you'll see what I mean.  This is no exaggeration.

I guess a good rough comparison might by Salk's latest.  His are two/three way, so not really in consideration.  But he has comparable woodwork and incorporated powered Rythmik woofers in his tower design, the Exotica 3.  Priced at  ...... wait for it  ........   more than $13,000 depending on choice of veneer.


..........Peter

Canada Rob

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Re: Peter's Super Alnico Monitors with matching powered woofers
« Reply #41 on: 29 Jan 2016, 05:53 am »
Very nice! :thumb: I bet they sound exquisite.
$50,000?  :roll: I doubt it.

In light of what was at CES, $50,000 isn't too far off.  I'm not saying Peter's speakers are worth $50,000 - just drawing a comparison to what's out there and what the asking prices are.

    $55,000                   $100,000                         $27,000                                       $15,890



   $155,250             $24,995            $40,000           $36,000               $29,900            $106,800



kbuzz3

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Re: Peter's Super Alnico Monitors with matching powered woofers
« Reply #42 on: 29 Jan 2016, 08:20 pm »
Couple of things

1) those are rythmik bass units and not LC/Omega's own design?  interesting....
2) the veneer is outstanding and the matching between the top and bottom is flawless.....wow
3) HOW MUCH....

pstrisik

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Re: Peter's Super Alnico Monitors with matching powered woofers
« Reply #43 on: 29 Jan 2016, 08:36 pm »
Couple of things

1) those are rythmik bass units and not LC/Omega's own design?  interesting....
2) the veneer is outstanding and the matching between the top and bottom is flawless.....wow
3) HOW MUCH....

1) Correct, rythmik bass drivers and plate amps.  Not ordinary subs as described earlier.  The amp is modified.  It is limited to 30hz low extension but has a setting for 50hz 24db/octave HPF.  They will handle 50hz to somewhere between 100 and 200 hz depending on setting on the Marchand active crossover.

2) Thanks I agree!  They actually look better in person.  The lense distorts the straight edges and highlights the gap between the cabinets which is really much less visible.

3) Let me check with Louis about posting prices.  We are actually still working that out.  It is atypical since I supplied the Rythmik drivers and amps.  He built the cabinets for them along with the monitors.  The 8" Rythmik driver is quite compatible on paper (still have to get them running to listen).  Light paper cones, foam surrounds and his proprietary servo system, all of which together make for very fast speakers.  I have a pair of his F12, 12" subs with plastic cones and rubber surrounds but the servo technology makes for fast, detailed, musical subs so I expect excellent results with the smaller, lighter drivers with massive magnets.





.........Peter

finsup

Re: Peter's Super Alnico Monitors with matching powered woofers
« Reply #44 on: 30 Jan 2016, 04:16 am »
Peter, the matching of the grain is really amazing. It reflects incredible attention to detail.

What is sitting on top of the marble blocks atop the subs? Your super tweeters?

Looking forward to your impressions following this weekend.

jorgen

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Re: Peter's Super Alnico Monitors with matching powered woofers
« Reply #45 on: 30 Jan 2016, 06:03 pm »
Really awesome Peter, and the looks are veryvery nice. I feel a litttle need to go a little down the same road, atleast in the sense of adding a little in lower end. Our friend in Norwalk is a very good man. Keep postIng some more impressions. The monitors with and without subs, and maybe also compared to your former floorstanders. Will you also add the supertweeters?

DaveC113

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Re: Peter's Super Alnico Monitors with matching powered woofers
« Reply #46 on: 30 Jan 2016, 06:13 pm »
Wow, congrats Peter!

Beautiful design and veneer choice as well, awesome!  :thumb:

I also look forward to listening impressions...

rajacat

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Re: Peter's Super Alnico Monitors with matching powered woofers
« Reply #47 on: 30 Jan 2016, 07:23 pm »
I've never liked the appearance of large monitors on pole stands. They look out of proportion and insecure. The subs under the speaker solve two problems at once. They improve the aesthetics while providing a place for the subs without using more floor space.

pstrisik

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Re: Peter's Super Alnico Monitors with matching powered woofers
« Reply #48 on: 7 Feb 2016, 11:40 pm »
Well, I'm up and running.  Bottom line is that this arrangement has turned out fantastic!  It was a bit of a rough start. Mostly as the Rythmik mid-bass drivers needed some break in.  They were quite "chesty" for several days.  It sure is hard not to jump to conclusions early on.  I did hold off on posting this time! 

The other aspect that made settling in slower is the need for integration, particularly between the monitors and mid-woofers: both xover frequency and volume level.  I settled on 110 Hz for now.  It seems that higher reduces imaging slightly (or it may just be the woofer level is a tad greater and encroaches a little too high in frequency).  Lower loses some of the benefit of the woofers. 

I'd say the two qualities that stand out are 1) a much larger and fuller feeling sound stage and 2) a tonal balance that runs up and down the scale more completely than I've heard.  The integration seems pretty darn good right now.  I don't hear different drivers at all.  In fact, it seems that the woofers enhance the midrange as well.  Seems to fill it out and define it more.  I think the bigger sound stage is both a help in the system sounding integrated and the integration enlarges the sound stage.

I had a major shift when I adjusted the phase controls on the mid-woofer plate amps to maximize the level at the listening position.  Was then able to turn the overall woofer levels down a bit and everything was more integrated feeling and the bass clearer.

As expected, the sense of body is there overall, and for individual sounds like notes of a guitar, etc.

I would highly recommend this approach, in part or in total.  I'm glad to help with anyone exploring.

Thank you again Louis.  Your patience care for the result along with incredible skills have provided speakers that I will keep and display with pride, likely for life or until deaf!


...........Peter

pstrisik

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Re: Peter's Super Alnico Monitors with matching powered woofers
« Reply #49 on: 12 Feb 2016, 08:38 pm »

Another configuration with these is to run the woofers down to 30Hz (switch to set for either 30 or 50Hz low end).  In this configuration, I could easily run without subs or run subs at below 30.  If I had to downsize (like an apartment or senior housing someday  :o), running them this way without subs would be the way to go.

Here's a shot from the back.......... 

   

And the Marchand XM-66 line level crossover........



pstrisik

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Re: Peter's Super Alnico Monitors with matching powered woofers
« Reply #50 on: 10 Apr 2016, 07:27 pm »
It has been a couple of months since my last post.  Just coming back to update after really settling in and changing very little other than occasional experimentation with tube variations.

The system as I’ve set it up is really wonderful.  The end result is an active powered four way system, though the Omega SAMs cover 60Hz up, the vast majority of the frequency range.  This approach is an alternative to the 1.5 way configuration for adding low end and increasing sensitivity while the modular plan preserves the SAMs as stock and adds more flexibility in configuration.

My DIY supertweeters based on 1990’s Yamaha beryllium tweeters have 2nd order high pass at 15kHz.  The mid-bass woofers are the Rythmik 8” paper cone/foam surround drivers with Brian’s modified plate amp that can extend down to either 50Hz or 30Hz.  Louis built the cabinets for these to match the SAMs and act as stands.  I have a Marchand XM-66 variable line level crossover to split the signal to the Dennis Had Inspire tube amp (for the Omegas) and the Rythmik mid-woofers.  Finally, I have my pair of Rythmik F12s that I now have at low pass of 30Hz with 14Hz extension and high damping.

I thought that this setup would be with the mid-woofers set to roll off below 50Hz and above something around 150Hz.  But I found that everything integrated better with the monitors doing the bulk of the work, the mid-woofers and subs at very narrow ranges (30-60Hz and 14-30Hz, respectively).  The bass is very solid and tight while the monitors extending down to 60Hz preserve the amazing imaging and realism.  I think keeping lower frequencies from both the tube amp and the SAMs allows for more dynamics and more volume before any distortion.

I have Herbie's fat dots between the monitors and mid-woofers and have Herbie's threaded stud gliders for feet that give me tilt adjustment.

If I were to do it again, I would change very little in the speaker system.  Having both the F12’s and mid-woofers seems like overkill.  I probably wouldn’t have spent all the extra if I knew it was going to be such a tight range but, now that I have both, I wouldn’t change it.  There is also the advantage that, if I ever move to a smaller space, this system will do very well without the F12’s. 





I have thanked Louis profusely for his willingness to work with me on something so non-standard, but can't really do it enough and want to do so publicly.  These are true "lifetime" speakers.

..........Peter   


finsup

Re: Peter's Super Alnico Monitors with matching powered woofers
« Reply #51 on: 10 Apr 2016, 10:51 pm »
Very cool, Peter. Thanks for the update. Maybe Louis will come up with his own Outlaw version based on your design. Just think, a speaker named after you. :D

pstrisik

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Re: Peter's Super Alnico Monitors with matching powered woofers
« Reply #52 on: 11 Apr 2016, 12:57 am »
Very cool, Peter. Thanks for the update. Maybe Louis will come up with his own Outlaw version based on your design. Just think, a speaker named after you. :D

Ha!  Well there are SAMs and CAMs.  Somehow Peters doesn't have that ring.....   or connotation  :icon_twisted:.

But PAMS - Peter's Alnico Monitor System could work!  :beer:

Seriously, Louis seemed interested and tempted.  He had good things to say about the Rythmik driver and amp.  We'll see. 


DaveC113

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Re: Peter's Super Alnico Monitors with matching powered woofers
« Reply #53 on: 11 Apr 2016, 01:15 am »
Looks great! With those xo points it would also be possible for both the 8 and 12" drivers to cover the same <60 Hz range and place the 12"subs somewhere else in the room to get the smoothest bass response throughout the room.


pstrisik

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Re: Peter's Super Alnico Monitors with matching powered woofers
« Reply #54 on: 11 Apr 2016, 01:43 am »
Looks great! With those xo points it would also be possible for both the 8 and 12" drivers to cover the same <60 Hz range and place the 12"subs somewhere else in the room to get the smoothest bass response throughout the room.

The 8" drivers don't extend that low.  They are limited at 30Hz.  That would make double influence in 30-60 over the lower range where those F12's will dig.  Moving the subs is a good idea though.  But I'm not motivated enough for what a big endeavor that is rearranging and recalibrating.  I ended up in physical therapy after setting up the way it is now, sad to say...   :violin:  Still recovering, but it did motivate me to join a gym and get my body stronger.   :thumb:

......Peter

Louis O

Re: Peter's Super Alnico Monitors with matching powered woofers
« Reply #55 on: 13 Apr 2016, 02:32 am »
Hi pstrisik,

Many thanks and it was great working with you on the system. I'm so happy it turned out so well and I would do it again PAM's sound really good to me. I was very impressed with the Rythmik components too and would use them again for sure.

Many thanks,
Louis


roscoe65

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Re: Peter's Super Alnico Monitors with matching powered woofers
« Reply #56 on: 4 May 2016, 12:55 pm »
Hi Peter,

I've been following your system building on AC as well as your participation in the Inspire thread on Audioafficionado.  I have a pair of Alnico Monitors and Inspire KT88 amp and LP27a preamp.  I also have a pair of Super 3's (wide baffle with RS5) and a 421a se amp.

If you were doing this over again, what changes would you make?  I am toying with the idea of going with a Rhythmik bass solution to go with either the Super Alnico's or SUper 3's.  My living room is about 16' x 20', with a listening position about 8' from the speakers.  My other room (which can be set up as a semi-dedicated listening room) is 12' x 12' with a similar listening distance.

Do you feel the alnico's have adequate bass for the smaller room in an optimized setup?  Do you think that the 8" drivers are better or worse than the 12" solution?  If you didn't have your existing subwoofers, would you have chosen 12's?  And finally, do you feel the use of stereo subs/woofer modules are worth the extra resources if you run the satellites full range?

Thanks,
Randy

pstrisik

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Re: Peter's Super Alnico Monitors with matching powered woofers
« Reply #57 on: 4 May 2016, 03:47 pm »
Hi Randy,

Boy... questions questions!   I'll do my best answering.  It's tough to convey things in this world of ours.  And so much is subjective.  So, this is all from one man's head.........

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If you were doing this over again, what changes would you make?  I am toying with the idea of going with a Rhythmik bass solution to go with either the Super Alnico's or SUper 3's.  My living room is about 16' x 20', with a listening position about 8' from the speakers.  My other room (which can be set up as a semi-dedicated listening room) is 12' x 12' with a similar listening distance.

Your room is only slightly smaller than mine.  I'm sitting 9' from the mains.  So we are pretty similar there.  I've not had these set up in a smaller room, so can't share experience in that setting or with the Super 3's, for that matter.

Quote
Do you feel the alnico's have adequate bass for the smaller room in an optimized setup? 

It sounds like you have SAM's already?  Did you listen to them in the smaller room?  And the judgement about what makes for adequate bass is very subjective.  For me, in my larger room, I was impressed with the bass extension of the monitors, but not enough to live with them without the bass extension help.  The bass from the monitors alone would likely improve in a smaller room, but I don't know by how much.  There have been at least a few comments from Monitor owners in this forum that indicated satisfaction with the bass without subs.

I will add a comment about the quality of the bass....   It's not like you would hear my system and say how powerful the bass is.  Well you might if I was playing Amy Winehouse, but not for the majority of music.  It is more that you hear more of the music since bass tones are clearer.  You can hear, for example, the plucking on an upright bass in detail following what the player is doing without it dominating the rest of the music.  I would characterize the added benefits as increased clarity and articulation rather than increased power or volume (though you can get those with this setup).  With orchestral music, you get that fuller sound with more emotion with the low end support.

Quote
Do you think that the 8" drivers are better or worse than the 12" solution? 

If I understand you correctly, I think this is apples and oranges.  If you are using the 12", I assume we are talking about a subwoofer with Rythmik's extension down to 14Hz.  The single 8" drivers are not subs. Brian has the amp roll off at 30Hz to make them mid-woofers (actually with a toggle to choose either 30 or 50Hz.  He does make a sub with 8", but it is dual 8" drivers to handle the demands of the lower frequencies (FM8).  You can get the FM8 with the mid-woofer option as well.  In this case, it will switch between extension to 50Hz (mid-woofer) or to its lower capabilities (sub).  These are finished subs.  The single driver mid-woofer with amp he only sells without cabinet.

If I had to choose between Monitors/subs and Monitors/mid-woofers, it would be a tough call.  The subs can extend up to mate with the monitors fine.  In fact, I've never tried having the crossover feed the monitors and subs - only ran the monitors full range and subs supplementing.  So the monitor/sub combo might work better if I did.  Based on my experience between monitors full range plus subs vs. monitors and mid-woofers with the crossover, I would choose the latter.  But, now that I realized that configuration I haven't tried, I must try it!  :icon_twisted:  I'll post impressions after I get a chance to do that.

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If you didn't have your existing subwoofers, would you have chosen 12's? 

If you mean for the mid-woofers, no.  The box for the 8" driver is perfect for a base under the SAM's making for the feel of just a pair of floor-standing speakers rather than monitors and separate bass modules.  With it only needing to go down to 30Hz, the 8" driver is  lighter and faster than a 12" would be (caveat of Brian's claims that his servo is the great equalizer between drivers).  Aside from Brian's servo technology and driver size, the smaller driver has a paper cone and a foam surround.  You can get a paper/foam 12" from Rythmik - the GR Research version - but Brian claims there is little difference in sound due to his servo technology.  The difference is the paper driver can extend higher.  The 8" driver can extend even higher than the paper 12 though, if you want to cross higher than about 120Hz.

Quote
And finally, do you feel the use of stereo subs/woofer modules are worth the extra resources if you run the satellites full range?

For me, definitely.  One or the other if not both.  But once I do have the woofer, I am not going to run the monitors (or the low power tube amp) full range.  As you have likely seen earlier in the threas, I have a line level crossover to make the blending absolutely smooth.  It relieves the main amp and the monitors of some of their heaviest work as well.  So by adding bass units you get much better bass response while also improving the midrange.  Actually, the extension into deeper bass enhances the midrange, too.  Even a guitar pluck now has the added support from below.

Now having the luxury of both the mid-woofers and stereo 12" subs, I wouldn't sell the subs.  But if I only had the Monitors and mid-woofers, I would be happy and might not spring for separate subs.  30Hz is low.  And these go solidly to 30Hz.  If we ever move to a condo or something where the room would be smaller, I would likely move without the subs.

Finally, I will say that the attraction of the Rythmik line is for the mid-woofers with the modified plate amps.  If you are opting for regular subs, I would talk more to Louis as he makes subs designed to mate with the Monitors.  I had my pair of Rythmik F12's before I had even heard of Omega.

Hope this helps - a lot to digest!    ........  Peter


« Last Edit: 4 May 2016, 06:13 pm by pstrisik »

pstrisik

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Re: Peter's Super Alnico Monitors with matching powered woofers
« Reply #58 on: 20 Jan 2017, 12:12 am »
Yes.  Brian (Rythmik) designed the plate amp on the 8's to extend down to a limit.  There is a switch to choose between 30Hz and 50Hz.  So I set the F12's to low pass at that chosen frequency.  Both plate amps are set to do 24db/octave roll off, so it's a smooth blend.


I want to do something similar. Maybe you can help me. We might have even discussed this in the past but here is my situation. I currently own a pair of Supercharged Omega3XRS's. So with the built in active 8inch sub that is located on the back. Louis is building me some High Output Omega 3XRS's that have the dual RS5 Drivers. So what I am going to do, is use my current speakers just for the subs alone once I have the new dual driver speakers. I am just going to put them right behind the new speakers. Then I want to add two more subs later for the real low stuff, including movie soundtracks. How, and what is the best way to accomplish all of this?   

You can read some of the earlier posts in this thread to get much more detail.  In essence, mine is a four way active system (quad amped).  You are looking at 3 way active.  3.5 way actually.  I have an active crossover (with variable frequency cross point) between the Monitors and the 8's.  Then the 8's roll off at either 30 or 50Hz with the 12's set to low pass at that same frequency as described above.

With your setup though, I wonder if you need the mid-bass subs since you will have the 1.5 way RS5's.  I haven't heard them myself, but understand they do much better with the mid-bass.  Having very low subs with low pass roll off around 50, I imaging you will have plenty of midbass.

But, whether you use the mid-bass units plus subs or just subs, you have the issue of blending since the RS5's will be run full range.  I would wait till you get them, experiment and see what you need.  You may find you don't need the subs or, if you feel you do, you may not need the mid-bass with the RS5's.  You can decide if the blending is smooth enough between the RS5's and subs and, if not, look at either a high pass active crossover or a two way active crossover.  Marchand makes good stuff.

If you do look at an active crossover, either 1 way or two way, I can give you more input.  Depending on how the amp is designed for your Omega mid-bass subs, you may have low pass already.  If so, a one way (high pass) crossover to set the bottom limit on the RS5's would be all you need.  With that you would also get the benefit of taking the heaviest work off your main amp and the RS5's increase the dynamics of both along with higher volume before distortion.

Did Louis set up the plate amp to do two way crossover work in your HO 3xrs' or does the main driver run full range?  If it is two way, is it line level (active) or speaker level (passive) crossover?  I think most would agree that speaker level crossover would remove some of the magic of the single driver approach.

Ok, enough rambling.  Glad to discuss more.

...........Peter

roscoe65

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Re: Peter's Super Alnico Monitors with matching powered woofers
« Reply #59 on: 21 Mar 2017, 12:44 pm »
I guess a good rough comparison might by Salk's latest.  His are two/three way, so not really in consideration.  But he has comparable woodwork and incorporated powered Rythmik woofers in his tower design, the Exotica 3.  Priced at  ...... wait for it  ........   more than $13,000 depending on choice of veneer.


..........Peter

This is a late comment, but the Salk Exotica 3's are indeed $12,9995 per pair.  They have the expected Salk excellent cabinetry, which we can reasonably equate with Louis'.

Some points of note:

1.  The midbass and tweeter used in the Salk Exotica 3 cost about $2,500 per set.  The Rhythmik amplifier/driver sets run another $1,300.  There is at least another $200 in miscellaneous parts.  Just the parts that go into the cabinets are $4,000.

2.  Peter's Omega uses a single 8" driver per side.  That doesn't save a whole lot of money (maybe $300 or so) but it would make a difference in a large room. 

3.  Given that both speakers are sold direct and would directly compete in the marketplace, I would argue that the Salk is a $13,000 speaker and Peter's Omega is a $5-6,000 speaker.