Capacitor upgrade...

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kentajalli

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Re: Capacitor upgrade...
« Reply #20 on: 23 Feb 2015, 01:05 pm »
You have to be careful here.  While they would be more detailed, and have a longer life, they would be harsh and edgy.  Those are basically SCRs...like Solen.  At least the electrolytics side towards the dark.  . . .
There's truth in what you are saying, however, it is not the fault of the capacitors, they will highlight flaws within the system, that so far been masked.
It's similar to a spoty face (but otherwise pretty) girl, who is partly veiled, if you remove her veil, you see the spots and her beauty better.
I know, I know - some are better left with veil on!  :wink:




Jeff

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Re: Capacitor upgrade...
« Reply #21 on: 23 Feb 2015, 06:11 pm »
Great picture and analogy.  However, I can not agree.  Nor is this "the chicken and the egg".  While darker caps do mask issues, that cap is bright and edgy (harsh)...period.  And, if a speaker has an issue that "darker" is covering, you will not find anyone on a budget who wishes to uncover it  :wink:

kentajalli

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Re: Capacitor upgrade...
« Reply #22 on: 23 Feb 2015, 06:33 pm »
OK I am not arguing that 'that capacitor' are the way forward here.
I said "even cheaper M-caps beat . . . " -
I am personally a fan of Obbligato caps, but they cost a lot more, M-caps don't do anything for me, but I can not refute their basic quality & availability.

Jeff

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Re: Capacitor upgrade...
« Reply #23 on: 23 Feb 2015, 06:53 pm »
OK I am not arguing that 'that capacitor' are the way forward here.
I said "even cheaper M-caps beat . . . " -
I am personally a fan of Obbligato caps, but they cost a lot more, M-caps don't do anything for me, but I can not refute their basic quality & availability.

Oh...ah I'm not trying to argue with you regarding this situation.  Especially, when we do not even know what our situation is yet :wink:  The reason I took issue with your statement was because a lot of people believe this.  They will take a vintage (or not) speaker, and replace the caps with cheap film caps...because they are better.  The detail comes up, but they don't like the way they sound.  This is not merely the difference in ESR.  This is one of the reason you like the gato.  Warmer...a little richer...

rollo

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Re: Capacitor upgrade...
« Reply #24 on: 23 Feb 2015, 07:29 pm »
  Before upgrading the existing crossover just try a different speaker first. Then you can determine the actual cause of your displeasure. If the different speaker has similar results look elsewhere.
   If it is the speaker then consider an all new one and an outboard one as well. You could try different caps however a PITA and could be costly as one cannot return caps.
    Just changing caps sometimes reveals other issues. If anything change the the resistor first on the tweeter especially if sand cast are used. Do not change values either as the drivers may not like that. Have fun.


charles

newguy52811

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Re: Capacitor upgrade...
« Reply #25 on: 23 Feb 2015, 08:54 pm »
I was trying to figure out, if I do upgrade the capacitors, will these speakers sound any different. I mean they are soft domes just like M&K's but they don't have "High end" specifications of like heat sinks, etc.... Hopefully I get time this weekend.

Jeff

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Re: Capacitor upgrade...
« Reply #26 on: 23 Feb 2015, 09:08 pm »
This will not be as chance as all these opinions would lead you to believe.  I do not want to speak for you, but based on my experience with customers, you are not willing to go for a ride on your current speakers and then spend multiples more than your initial budget to do it again.  You are after potential improvement without buying more speakers.  You would like as much improvement as possible without approaching the price of "more" speakers.  I purposely dragged this thread/process out for the benefit of those that come after you.  I'm going to switch gears.  How are we coming on getting those XOs removed?

newguy52811

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Re: Capacitor upgrade...
« Reply #27 on: 23 Feb 2015, 09:13 pm »
Will be this weekend yet, won't get a chance to do it this week as I work all week leading up to the weekend...  :x :cry:

newguy52811

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Re: Capacitor upgrade...
« Reply #28 on: 24 Feb 2015, 12:03 am »
This will not be as chance as all these opinions would lead you to believe.  I do not want to speak for you, but based on my experience with customers, you are not willing to go for a ride on your current speakers and then spend multiples more than your initial budget to do it again.  You are after potential improvement without buying more speakers.  You would like as much improvement as possible without approaching the price of "more" speakers.  I purposely dragged this thread/process out for the benefit of those that come after you.  I'm going to switch gears.  How are we coming on getting those XOs removed?

Also, to further validate your point. I did find a YouTube video of a guy who upgraded his capacitors in Radio Shack speakers. I guess first and foremost, if people are willing to go to the extent of upgrading capacitors in a Radio Shack speaker. Why, I dunno? Then there's a lot of truth behind upgrading the capacitors of these things. The link: http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Pn2vdndLlIc

kentajalli

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Re: Capacitor upgrade...
« Reply #29 on: 24 Feb 2015, 02:40 am »
if people are willing to go to the extent of upgrading capacitors in a Radio Shack speaker. Why, I dunno? Then there's a lot of truth behind upgrading the capacitors of these things.

Well I dabble with my equipment too, for fun!  :scratch:
That does not mean, my equipment is better afterwards, but it is fun to do so, don't loose sight of that.
If it is just better sound you are after, you are better off listening to good advice given here, and replace them, but what's the fun in that?
Most manufacturers bear into account the quality and character of the components they use, to get to the final product, if you change some, you will get a different sound, you may like it, you may not. If we believe we know better than the designers, well then . . . .
But sometimes, only sometimes, a certain product does have a certain shortcoming that can be fixed, only because the manufacturing budget did not allow for those better components, so if you think we can improve a product for a few cents, I doubt it.
I personally did upgrade the inductors (bar one), resistors and capacitors on my Sonus Faber - Grand Piano's, and I think they sound a lot better, but it cost me over £200, and a fair bit labour.
remember you are doing it for fun too, if all else fails, you learn something, and you will have fun.
Happy upgrading.

P.S. see my other post regarding my recent upgrade on a cheapo DAC I picked up on eBay :
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=132635.msg1406192#msg1406192

newguy52811

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Re: Capacitor upgrade...
« Reply #30 on: 24 Feb 2015, 02:48 am »
Well... I will be sending the Crossovers to Jeff to do the upgrade as soon I get them taken apart this weekend. I'm hoping he can do a reasonable upgrade for around $150 a piece. Can you answer me, I guess given that you spent $200 on those, do they compare to any other high end speaker. I haven't heard of your brand before. But, do they compare sound wise to M&K's or B&W's, Kefs, Paradigms, Thiel, etc...?

kentajalli

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Re: Capacitor upgrade...
« Reply #31 on: 24 Feb 2015, 11:08 am »
£200, not dollars ( uk pound sterling - about $300).
Sonus Faber is an Italian high end manufacturer
http://sonusfaber.com/en-us/home-page
I chose my component values exactly as spec, I used Jantzen wax aircored foil inductors, Jantzen resitors and Obbligato capacitors. The inductors were cutom wound to my values. I kept the bigger inductor feeding the second bass driver, it was already top notch.
Sonus Faber, indeed does use similar components on it's higher grade speakers.
After the upgrade they sound like themselves, just better, more revealing - I could not compare them with another speaker.
By upgrading, you never turn a Toyota into Porsche!
You may turn it into a Lexus, if you're lucky.




newguy52811

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Re: Capacitor upgrade...
« Reply #32 on: 24 Feb 2015, 03:11 pm »
Interesting.... I know that there is probably a limit you can put on with just replacing capacitors and such. I'm not asking to turn a lemon into gold. Maybe turn into silver. ;)

newguy52811

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Re: Capacitor upgrade...
« Reply #33 on: 24 Feb 2015, 05:04 pm »
This will not be as chance as all these opinions would lead you to believe.  I do not want to speak for you, but based on my experience with customers, you are not willing to go for a ride on your current speakers and then spend multiples more than your initial budget to do it again.  You are after potential improvement without buying more speakers.  You would like as much improvement as possible without approaching the price of "more" speakers.  I purposely dragged this thread/process out for the benefit of those that come after you.  I'm going to switch gears.  How are we coming on getting those XOs removed?




The crossover (above left pic) is from a two-way bookshelf speaker system we have previously reviewed.  The speaker system employs a stiff cone driver which has no crossover circuit (namely a LPF) to limit its bandwidth to reduce its audible break up modes at higher frequencies.  The manufacturer chose to use an electrolytic capacitor as a measure of cost savings at the expense of performance as these parts have higher resistance and performance variances than quality and more costly poly designs.  This is bottom of the barrel crossover design unbecoming of any serious loudspeaker design, despite the claims of “science and research” behind its products.  At low power levels these speakers don't sound bad but once the volume is cranked up, audible driver break up was identified by our panel of listeners in blind comparisons. Quote from: http://www.audioholics.com/loudspeaker-design/crossovers

Last line pretty much says it all, sounds alright not turned up, but when turned up. Huge audio disruption. 

Jeff

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Re: Capacitor upgrade...
« Reply #34 on: 25 Feb 2015, 01:16 am »
Apples to oranges.  First, you do not have a xo like the poor one exampled in the pic above.  Well...outside of the electrolytics.  Second, many things can cause this...like cabinet resonances, etc...  I will cover this after we get a closer look at the XOs.  Again, lets not put the cart before the horse.  Evaluation will not cost you anything outside of shipping.  We could speculate all week. 

newguy52811

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Re: Capacitor upgrade...
« Reply #35 on: 25 Feb 2015, 05:35 am »
Apples to oranges.  First, you do not have a xo like the poor one exampled in the pic above.  Well...outside of the electrolytics.  Second, many things can cause this...like cabinet resonances, etc...  I will cover this after we get a closer look at the XOs.  Again, lets not put the cart before the horse.  Evaluation will not cost you anything outside of shipping.  We could speculate all week. 

I'm gonna let you in on a little secret, I'm not the only one who had notice this. Before I reached out to you, I researched to see if anyone else had this problem, and they do.




Its on an Amazon review: http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/reviews/B00AQL9B2G/ref=mw_dp_cr

Others say that, they can finally hear the voices so clearly, but it's to tinty and lispy. He I believe was gonna junk the crossover hence why I didn't know what to do... I've been working all week covering my co-workers that had emergency's. I unfortunately work in the "cut throat" restaurant business. I want a full day off to get the crossovers out, cause I don't want to rush and break them so I can send them to you. If I didn't fully believe that it was the crossovers, I'd probably try other things. Of course there's no backing behind the tweeter, so sound could be bouncing around in there but that's something I can always do if it's cheap. :)
As I said, the main reason why I bought these as they were beautiful and cheap. My wife and I bought our very first house in December, and needed the 4K TV and surround sound with it. Yes, she got a Xbox One yesterday. It doesn't look to shabby here:

 

newguy52811

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Re: Capacitor upgrade...
« Reply #36 on: 25 Feb 2015, 06:17 am »
Apples to oranges.  First, you do not have a xo like the poor one exampled in the pic above.  Well...outside of the electrolytics.  Second, many things can cause this...like cabinet resonances, etc...  I will cover this after we get a closer look at the XOs.  Again, lets not put the cart before the horse.  Evaluation will not cost you anything outside of shipping.  We could speculate all week.

Reading the review, sounds like he also replaced the drivers, but if you don't believe otherwise. I'm gonna keep them, because I can't afford it right now and if we can make the crossover stable enough with them. It'll be all the better. :) My name is Michael btw... ;)

Jeff

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Re: Capacitor upgrade...
« Reply #37 on: 25 Feb 2015, 07:23 am »
I'm gonna let you in on a little secret

Why was it a secret?

I'm not the only one who had notice this. Before I reached out to you, I researched to see if anyone else had this problem, and they do.

And you only mention this now?  You started out asking me if the Sonicap was bi-polar or non-polar.  Then you asked me if you should make all the cap values on the tweeters the same, or use a Yamaha EQ to straighten out the sound.  You finished by telling me that you just wanted to adjust the XO to sound more natural.  That would have been a great time to mention the rest.

Others say that, they can finally hear the voices so clearly, but it's to tinty and lispy.

Why would you buy them then?  No return them after you heard them?  I guess since you keep telling me all you were interested in was cheap and pretty, it is a win/win.  The fact that they sound bad is a distant third...

He I believe was gonna junk the crossover hence why I didn't know what to do...

I find it odd that someone who can measure a speaker, and has good command of LspCAD would ever own, much less purchase, a set of these speakers :roll:  At best, he was working on them for someone else.  Otherwise, it would be like me purchasing a set.  I further suspect he selling his products or services.  Nothing wrong with that, but it does make his review a bit disingenuous.  BTW, congrats on the new home :)

Jeff

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Re: Capacitor upgrade...
« Reply #38 on: 25 Feb 2015, 07:33 am »
Reading the review, sounds like he also replaced the drivers, but if you don't believe otherwise. I'm gonna keep them, because I can't afford it right now and if we can make the crossover stable enough with them. It'll be all the better. :) My name is Michael btw... ;)

He said he did, but is that really even an option for you?  Replace the drivers, and redesign the XO for the new drivers...really??  By replacing the caps and resistors, and adding a superior damping material to the cabinets, those speakers will sound night and day different, but I do not plan on redesigning the XOs.  That would require you shipping me the speaker.  Shipping would be considerable, and the cost of my labor would be more.  Read that as out of your budget.

Yes, Michael, but is your last name Schmitt?

newguy52811

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Re: Capacitor upgrade...
« Reply #39 on: 25 Feb 2015, 08:02 am »
Quote from: Jeff

Yes, Michael, but is your last name Schmitt?
[/quote

Yes. :)