Capacitor upgrade...

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newguy52811

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Capacitor upgrade...
« on: 20 Feb 2015, 07:16 pm »
I have the Fluance XLHTB 5.1 setup, and the speakers don't really match vocal wise and have different valued capacitors in them. Is it better to replace the same valued capacitor in each of the speakers and have the Yamaha equalizer per se fix it, or would you try to get the same valued capacitors for each speaker. As you can see I'm starting out as a DIY guy. I'm use to THX speakers and these speakers are cheap that I have that is all I could afford. The Center has a really big lisp that sounds like the tweeter is blown even tho I know it's not, just want to adjust the crossovers to make it sound more natural. Any help would be appreciated. Thank you!
« Last Edit: 21 Feb 2015, 04:55 pm by newguy52811 »

newguy52811

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Re: Capacitor upgrade...
« Reply #1 on: 21 Feb 2015, 04:54 pm »
I would like to add that they are 1st order crossovers. C1, and L1's they have. I thought about getting Erse or Dayton Crossovers, and then upgrading the capacitors to Sonicap, or a mix. My wife gave me a budget of $500 for the 5 speakers as I have to buy her a new Wii... lol, so am not sure what to do. In response to that I'm use to THX speakers, as my dad has M&K speakers as they use polypropylene caps, hence why I feel they are leagues ahead of these. The Fluance are using electrolytic caps. Yuck! Any budget constraint advice on how to get them to sound nice would be awesome. :)

WGH

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Re: Capacitor upgrade...
« Reply #2 on: 21 Feb 2015, 08:57 pm »
While waiting for cap advice I suggest making felt or foam tweeter surrounds to control the highs, the cost is close to zero and they will definitely improve your sound.



Wayne

newguy52811

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Re: Capacitor upgrade...
« Reply #3 on: 21 Feb 2015, 09:00 pm »
I thought about doing that as M&K speakers use foam around the tweeters, just didn't know if it would make a difference as these are MTM speakers.

Jeff

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Re: Capacitor upgrade...
« Reply #4 on: 21 Feb 2015, 09:03 pm »
Thank you for your post.  :D

Can you be more specific?  Which speakers have which values?  Do they all seem to be the same brand, value, and voltage?

While caps will certainly influence the sound of the speaker (much more than many are aware), they can not overcome a bad design.  These may be a good design, but I am not familiar with them.  It is also possible to have tweeter(s) that operate, but are not operating correctly.  I must say that the first thing that comes to mind when you say "lisp" and "single cap", is poor XO design.  It is possible that the tweeter is getting too close to resonance, and/or moving well past its linear range.  On one other note, the center channel used in HT mainly covers dialog.  I often treat it different from the L/R front to keep voices natural but most intelligible.  This can be different from the musical presentation desired from the L/R.  The same treatment to the center can render vocals chesty, etc...

Oddly enough, I have seen many bad capacitors in relatively new speakers.  That is a possibility as well.

Besides curing the lisp, are you looking for any other sonic characteristics?  Warmth, richness, detail, transparency, ...?  Besides posting the values, any chance of pictures (of the XO)?

Jeff

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Re: Capacitor upgrade...
« Reply #5 on: 21 Feb 2015, 09:07 pm »
I thought about doing that as M&K speakers use foam around the tweeters, just didn't know if it would make a difference as these are MTM speakers.

It would make a difference if you had a diffraction problem, but I do not think it will help your problem at hand.  Fix your problems first, then you might find some pleasing results in other mods.

newguy52811

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Re: Capacitor upgrade...
« Reply #6 on: 21 Feb 2015, 09:10 pm »




I really can't get much of a screen shot thro the speakers, but yeah, looking for more clarity and depth what I can get cheaply. I was thinking about getting the Sonicap Gen I's.




newguy52811

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Re: Capacitor upgrade...
« Reply #7 on: 21 Feb 2015, 09:16 pm »
Thank you for your post.  :D

Can you be more specific?  Which speakers have which values?  Do they all seem to be the same brand, value, and voltage?

While caps will certainly influence the sound of the speaker (much more than many are aware), they can not overcome a bad design.  These may be a good design, but I am not familiar with them.  It is also possible to have tweeter(s) that operate, but are not operating correctly.  I must say that the first thing that comes to mind when you say "lisp" and "single cap", is poor XO design.  It is possible that the tweeter is getting too close to resonance, and/or moving well past its linear range.  On one other note, the center channel used in HT mainly covers dialog.  I often treat it different from the L/R front to keep voices natural but most intelligible.  This can be different from the musical presentation desired from the L/R.  The same treatment to the center can render vocals chesty, etc...

Oddly enough, I have seen many bad capacitors in relatively new speakers.  That is a possibility as well.

Besides curing the lisp, are you looking for any other sonic characteristics?  Warmth, richness, detail, transparency, ...?  Besides posting the values, any chance of pictures (of the XO)?

The center speaker has a 6.8uf cap in it, and the Surrounding has a 3.3uf cap on high end. They are beautiful looking speakers for sure, but just am not 100% sure on to replace the caps like for like or try to match them and get better sound...


newguy52811

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Re: Capacitor upgrade...
« Reply #8 on: 21 Feb 2015, 10:00 pm »






Pics of the Surround speaker crossover.

Jeff

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Re: Capacitor upgrade...
« Reply #9 on: 21 Feb 2015, 10:08 pm »
Yep, can't see in the box too well, but I do see a resistor and potential something else??

Based on no more than you know or have to work with, I could not advise just up and changing values.  Even though, going from a 6.8uF to 3.3uF on the center tweet might help that driver with resonance.  But you can not just up and change values on a well designed speaker (of which we have no idea what we have here).

Make sure that there is only a cap, coil, and resistor in there.  On the surrounds, use these:http://www.soniccraft.com/product_info.php/kimber-kap-33uf-200vdc-p-4652.  On the center, use a Sonicap G1.  Replace all the resistors with Mills 12 watt: http://www.soniccraft.com/index.php/mills-12-watt-c-29_53_63.  If you do not have solder, this will make easy work of it: http://www.soniccraft.com/product_info.php/cardas-solder-qe-24ft-p-521.  These recommendations are based on your budget and desired results.  As far as you were able to translate to me...  If you decide to experiment with the center from here, it will be a single cap.  It will be cheap, and you will have a new bench mark to work from.  What you have now leaves you in the unknown.

Jeff

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Re: Capacitor upgrade...
« Reply #10 on: 21 Feb 2015, 10:11 pm »





Pics of the Surround speaker crossover.

Looks like we have more going on here.  I'd recommend removing the XOs altogether.  You are going to have to do this at some point.  To be clear, is it only the center with the lisp?

newguy52811

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Re: Capacitor upgrade...
« Reply #11 on: 21 Feb 2015, 10:16 pm »
I want to make them all sound good. But they all pretty much sound like people are eating the microphone, so you would recommend a new crossover completely?

Jeff

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Re: Capacitor upgrade...
« Reply #12 on: 21 Feb 2015, 10:26 pm »
Never said that :scratch:  Besides, your budget would not allow for it.  I do not know exactly what the budget is out side of "cheap"...  Above all, I'm not sure the speakers are worth such an investment.

Where are we at on removing those XOs?  It would help to know where we are at :wink:

newguy52811

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Re: Capacitor upgrade...
« Reply #13 on: 21 Feb 2015, 10:34 pm »
On my way to work right now, and work for the next 4 days, are you wanting to get pics of the full crossover? It will be next week when I have time to take them out. Do you believe that upgrading the caps of right now would make it sound better or would it take better speakers as well?

Jeff

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Re: Capacitor upgrade...
« Reply #14 on: 21 Feb 2015, 10:51 pm »
As I have said above, caps will certainly influence the sound of the speaker (much more than many are aware).  Yes, they will improve them.  Right now, I do not know much about your XOs.  You seem to be in the dark too.  Your picture are revealing more than you have told me.

No rush.  Once you have them out, take detailed pics of both sides.  If we can not figure it out that way, you can mail one of each to me.  We will evaluate, measure, and draw a schematic free of charge.  You will have no obligation outside of return shipping.

BTW, are all the surrounds MTM floor standers?  How about a pic of the center?

newguy52811

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Re: Capacitor upgrade...
« Reply #15 on: 21 Feb 2015, 10:59 pm »



The Surround is TM. I don't have a picture of the Center yet.

newguy52811

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Re: Capacitor upgrade...
« Reply #16 on: 22 Feb 2015, 06:01 am »

As I have said above, caps will certainly influence the sound of the speaker (much more than many are aware).  Yes, they will improve them.  Right now, I do not know much about your XOs.  You seem to be in the dark too.  Your picture are revealing more than you have told me.

No rush.  Once you have them out, take detailed pics of both sides.  If we can not figure it out that way, you can mail one of each to me.  We will evaluate, measure, and draw a schematic free of charge.  You will have no obligation outside of return shipping.

BTW, are all the surrounds MTM floor standers?  How about a pic of the center?




Here is the pic of the Center. I guess I didn't realize I was talking to the president of SonicCraft either... :)

kentajalli

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Re: Capacitor upgrade...
« Reply #17 on: 22 Feb 2015, 10:09 pm »
The crossover in the picture is using decent air-cored inductors, but the capacitors look cheap. Instead of changing the values, replace them with something quality. Even the cheapest MKP's from M-cap would beat these. find a friendly shop that allows you to try different values, start with same values as they are, just do not solder them in, if you intend to change them, use clips.
Also a piece of foam around the HF driver is not going to do anything. Try gluing immitation leather (or real!) on the entire front face, as used on Sonus Faber speakers, it looks better, and has more effect, but only if you are suffering refraction, otherwise leave it alone.

Jeff

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Re: Capacitor upgrade...
« Reply #18 on: 22 Feb 2015, 11:25 pm »
Even the cheapest MKP's from M-cap would beat these.

You have to be careful here.  While they would be more detailed, and have a longer life, they would be harsh and edgy.  Those are basically SCRs...like Solen.  At least the electrolytics side towards the dark.  Many have learned this lesson.  You see their posts, "I love the detail, but I hate to listen to them".  Or, they love the detail, but they are back working on them a few weeks/months later.  Sometimes, you see them up for sale in short order.  I suppose some just live with it not knowing any better, but I definitely do not recommend the cheapest Mcap MKP for anything other than budget lowpass shunts (read this as large value LP shunts).

newguy52811

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Re: Capacitor upgrade...
« Reply #19 on: 23 Feb 2015, 05:33 am »
The crossover in the picture is using decent air-cored inductors, but the capacitors look cheap. Instead of changing the values, replace them with something quality. Even the cheapest MKP's from M-cap would beat these. find a friendly shop that allows you to try different values, start with same values as they are, just do not solder them in, if you intend to change them, use clips.
Also a piece of foam around the HF driver is not going to do anything. Try gluing immitation leather (or real!) on the entire front face, as used on Sonus Faber speakers, it looks better, and has more effect, but only if you are suffering refraction, otherwise leave it alone.

One problem I may be experiencing is the fact that they are MTM's and that the tweeter is in between midranges and I'm not use to it. From what I read is that a MTM design is more simplistic in sound, and they do filter Piano sounds more realistic that a TM speaker cause of the lobe tilting effect. :) My car has the Pioneer tweeters on the side, and it's great for loud music and all. :) The reason why I choose these is because the we're the cheapest, good looking speakers I could find at the time, and now that I got a little tax return, I want to up the ante with them.