[haiderSonneteer]

Hi,

i have just been trying to do some research on Listener fatigue or other similar ailments. I found a Wikipidia page and lots of anecdotal stuff. does anyone know of any scientific research or even if you have your own direct experience and views I would love to hear them.

I am not just talking about Auditory fatigue which is caused by listening to music loudly but the fatigue you can get from listening to music at normal levels when listening to some equipment. Why, what, where when.etc.

Haider
sonneteer.co.uk

[*Scotty*]

My guess is that the presence of distortion of any kind which exceeds the individuals threshold of tolerance is going to produce avoidance behavior. If it is unconscious avoidance behavior they may begin to listen to their stereo less than they might have,

had distortion levels been lower or absent. They may also avoid listening to music with female vocalists or horns if there are frequency response anomalies that are within these two areas. In essence the system is making their choices for them when it comes to program material.
 If conscious avoidance is occurring the individual will likely be motivated to do something about it. This generally leads to several rounds of equipment swapping until they are temporarily satisfied with the sonic outcome.
Scotty

[Mag]

 My experiences on listening is not a myth but reality. I don't know how well I can categorize them. I've been a serious listener since about 2000 when I invested in home audio with progressive upgrades over the years.

  There is short term listening fatigue caused by equipment distortions, speakers etc.. Even if you're an experienced listener listening to distortion will tire your ears in a short time.

Loudness can fatigue initially but it's more of a function of your brain getting tired. Active listening takes a great deal of concentration and this is what tires the brain.

Long term listening fatigue is different. If you listen for extended periods like 1 or 2 weeks at a time. It's as if your brain goes into protection mode, and you become disinterested in listening to music. You may also get the feeling you're going deaf.

Now when I encountered this experience, I was afraid I was going deaf so I listened to music at low volume in the background until I had interest in deep listening again which lasted about 2 or 3 weeks.

After going through this phase which is kinda scary, I found that I can listen for extended lengths of time at fairly loud spl without fatigue on my home system. However if I went to the bar I would still get listening fatigue listening to the loud distorted PA system.

So IMO Listening Fatigue is simply the brain getting tired. You can eventually overcome as your brain gets conditioned to extended listening.

[Early B.]

My ears are very sensitive to brightness, so if there is any hint of brightness, I'm good for about 30 minutes. Bottom line -- if the music doesn't sound right (however you define it), why would you want to keep listening to it? So you find something else to do.

There's also a psychological element -- when you're tired, mentally drained, or don't feel well, your listening fatigue threshold may decrease significantly.

 

[stereocilia]

Hyperacusis is a real phenomenon that often accompanies hearing loss and tinnitus. In this case the compression function of the audiovestibular system ain't working right.

Phonphobia is a dislike of loud sounds, and misophonia is a negative emotional response to some kind of sound (nails on a chalkboard, etc.). Listener fatigue is probably some special kind of misophonia.

If listener fatigue is real, my guess is that it must originate further up the central nervous system rather than at the middle ear, the cochlea, the auditory nerve, or the brainstem. The reason I say this is that it we can record the electrical output from these parts in response to sound, and as far as I know the responses don't decay.

[*Scotty*]

Funny thing is I never suffer any listening fatigue from live unamplified music. Mental or aural fatigue never enters into the equation. I am convinced that the problem rears its head because we are listening to an artificial source of sound and unlike reality the music is never reproduced without some form of distortion being present. The cognitive dissonance engendered by the artificiality of reproduced music contributes to the problem.
Scotty

[woodsyi]

Scotty,

I have walked out of concerts because the musicians and or the music sucked.  I would say I get fatigue from bad live music.  Actually, I don't get to the point of fatigue.  I just leave.  But I am going to infer that there is fatigue from live music because I would have had them if I stayed.

[DaveC113]

Good posts so far!    Listening fatigue is the one thing we must avoid at all costs, as Scotty said it will lead to not wanting to listen to music and turning the volume down lower so it's not so irritating. Producing products that do not contribute to listening fatigue is my #1 priority, I will not make compromises in this area as I believe owning components and cables that do not cause fatigue is key to our long term enjoyment of music.

Many things can cause listening fatigue, high levels of distortion are very obvious and cause it quickly, but there are other distortions that may not be measurable that contribute, I find it's mostly the material that the electrons flow through that causes these lower level distortions and a kind of listening fatigue that is hard to identify and can remain unconscious, poisoning enjoyment of music. Cheap connectors are the most prevalent, it's best to replace connectors with ones made of pure copper. Lower purity (4N and lower) silver wire accentuated leading edges and causes harshness, it's best to avoid any silver with the exception of UPOCC silver, which may be the most accurate conductor material available.

Noise on the AC power supply causes listening fatigue too, this can be very obvious with dirty AC power but can be low-level like cheap connectors and cables if it's lower levels of noise on the AC line.

Poor vibration control may also cause fatigue, a good example is speakers spiked directly to a concrete floor... the better your vibration control the less fatigue you will have.

Cheap passive parts can also be an issue... unbypassed electrolytic caps directly in the signal path or last stage of a power supply, cheap resistors, etc...

If you want a system that has the least amount of fatigue possible you must start with components that are designed properly, then address AC power using a good emi/rfi filter, deliver the AC power with top quality power cables that use pure copper connectors, plug them into IEC jacks that are also made of pure copper. Start at your source and replace all RCA or XLR jacks with pure copper units, same with binding posts.

There are also parts that cause issues that are the opposite of listening fatigue, these are parts of the system that add warmth while smearing detail. While not as bad as fatigue, the loss of detail will prevent a satisfying connection with the music. Cheap copper wire used in IC cables does the most harm, bad IC cables will completely get rid of spatial cues, reverb trails and other fine detail that should be present in the music. Improperly used passive parts, such as some carbon resistors like Kiwame will also add warmth and obliterate detail. My design goals are to preserve as much fine detail as possible while not adding distortions that can cause fatigue. In my less expensive cables I do make compromises that add warmth and reduce resolution in order to meet price points. It is much better to have a smooth, warm component than a grainy, harsh component, but neither are ultimately a good component.

Listening fatigue happens a lot faster at higher volumes, I tend to test at high volumes so it's more obvious. You should be able to listen to your system at realistic volumes without fatigue.

I am also convinced there is a correlation between certain kinds of distortion and hearing damage. A clean system is much less likely to damage your hearing vs a harsh system played at the same SPLs.

[rollo]

Funny thing is I never suffer any listening fatigue from live unamplified music. Mental or aural fatigue never enters into the equation. I am convinced that the problem rears its head because we are listening to an artificial source of sound and unlike reality the music is never reproduced without some form of distortion being present. The cognitive dissonance engendered by the artificiality of reproduced music contributes to the problem.
Scotty

   Yes and no. A poor design is a poor design. Meaning to me a Lean or bright, hard, prominent upper midrange, etc. An improper VTA can cause fatigue as well not just digital.
    Reproduced music should hit one in the heart. Emotional impact is required from any system. Without emotional impact fatigue will rear its ugly head. Tonality and harmonic structure must be presented as close to live as possible. We can get close however the MIA real life cues are missing.
    The test for any system is to pump up the volume. It should just get louder, no distortion. Lot's of ya are going to be disappointed later. Sorry.
  Why the fatigue is not the question as there can be many culprits. Plating of a plug with Rhodium can cause fatigue in one system and not another.
     It is the complete system that needs synergy not one part.



charles

[rollo]

Hi,

i have just been trying to do some research on Listener fatigue or other similar ailments. I found a Wikipidia page and lots of anecdotal stuff. does anyone know of any scientific research or even if you have your own direct experience and views I would love to hear them.

I am not just talking about Auditory fatigue which is caused by listening to music loudly but the fatigue you can get from listening to music at normal levels when listening to some equipment. Why, what, where when.etc.

Haider
sonneteer.co.uk

   Hard and or edgy top end. Digital done wrong. A midrange that sounds like a Kazoo. When one hears a horn for example, one hears the mouthpiece first then the bloom of the bell. 
   Piano and violin can be the most fatigueing of all. A poor design cannot reproduce the correct tonality. so in a nutshell it boils down to tone.


charles

[SteveFord]

It's when you go "this doesn't sound right", you want to run a Q-tip through your ears, you turn the damned thing down and finally you shut it off.
I've had that with all solid state, solid state amp/tube preamp and tube amp/tube preamp so it's an equal opportunity thing with me.

[Wayner]

I think its just more "fatigue" rather then "listener fatigue". If you are sitting there listening to music for an extended period of time, your brain gets tired of the intensity of the situation. Its not any different then driving for long periods of time, or being at work and doing some task for an extended period.

That is why it is important to get up and get another beer, relax a bit and then have at 'er again.

Wayner

[FullRangeMan]

Hi,

i have just been trying to do some research on Listener fatigue or other similar ailments. I found a Wikipidia page and lots of anecdotal stuff. does anyone know of any scientific research or even if you have your own direct experience and views I would love to hear them.

I am not just talking about Auditory fatigue which is caused by listening to music loudly but the fatigue you can get from listening to music at normal levels when listening to some equipment. Why, what, where when.etc.

Haider
sonneteer.co.uk

The ears become annoyed by the sound quality they are hearing.
This is a personal issue and the cause of course is bad sound.

[stereocilia]

Funny thing is I never suffer any listening fatigue from live unamplified music. Mental or aural fatigue never enters into the equation. I am convinced that the problem rears its head because we are listening to an artificial source of sound and unlike reality the music is never reproduced without some form of distortion being present. The cognitive dissonance engendered by the artificiality of reproduced music contributes to the problem.
Scotty

Maybe visual "distortion" contributes to it. The dissonance of hearing voices and instruments coming from a particular nearby location with no visual match might make the part of our brain that tries to put this all together into a cohesive sensory experience go wtf after awhile. Just a thought.

Wayner's thought makes sense to me, too: listening fatigue is just fatigue. The beer part, too. I'm going to get a beer now, in fact.

[*Scotty*]

woodsyi, I have been fortunate enough not to pay for tickets to an unamplified musical event that has been so poor in either performance or acoustics that I have had the urge to up and leave. I don't usually go to performances that have amplified instruments or vocalists and have left many live outdoor performances that were free and featured amplified performers. Most of the time the PA system sounds like crap on steroids if it is not too loud from the get go.
 I think people also have very different levels and sensitivities to distortion in music that is reproduced in the home. Some people listen to systems with frequency response errors for years that if they encountered them outside the home they would probably realize there was a problem of some kind and leave. I also suspect that unrecognized distortions in stereo systems probably account for a large percentage of equipment changes seen peoples systems. More often than not people are seeking an improvement in the "sound" of their system and what they really need is a dramatic reduction in the types and magnitudes of errors present in their system. When people realize that their system has some kind of problem, through measurement or some other type of diagnostic mechanism, then they can take action directly aimed at addressing a specific type of problem.
Ignorance is not necessarily bliss and may even be expensive in the end.
 I listen to music at home for relaxation and don't view it as a task requiring a level of mental attention which would eventually lead to fatigue. However if I am engaged in listening trials of any kind then the need for a coffee break at some point is definitely in order. In my case alcohol is specifically off the menu due to how it compromises my auditory acuity. One beer and like Sgt. Schultz "I know NOTHING!".
scotty

Scotty

[Russell Dawkins]

My pet theory is that when we listen to an artificial reconstruction of something that we know the sound of, some part of the brain is busy trying to re-construct the sound to resemble the original. The greater the difference between what we are hearing and what we know to be reality, the harder the brain has to work. This causes the fatigue which accompanies any arduous mental activity.
Secondly, it is my guess that the more complex the distortion the harder the brain has to work, so that high levels of simple distortion–like even order harmonics added by tube amps–are tolerated, even enjoyed, while low levels of complex distortions are not tolerated so well. Complexity goes beyond the harmonic structure, of course, and includes relationships to signal dynamics and phase errors introduced by crossover components and speaker design, not to speak of digital and analog processing.

[FullRangeMan]

To me its the odd harmonics and to much level in the treble(strong treble);

[borism]

This is a great discussion. Probably, there is no single answer and all of the above aply. One particular article comes to mind that I think may contribute to this topic. I don't want to start a tubed vs. SS discussion, however.
'God is in the nuances' by Markus Sauer in Stereophile: http://www.stereophile.com/features/203/
(January 2000)

[stereocilia]

My pet theory is that when we listen to an artificial reconstruction of something that we know the sound of, some part of the brain is busy trying to re-construct the sound to resemble the original. The greater the difference between what we are hearing and what we know to be reality, the harder the brain has to work. This causes the fatigue which accompanies any arduous mental activity.
Secondly, it is my guess that the more complex the distortion the harder the brain has to work, so that high levels of simple distortion–like even order harmonics added by tube amps–are tolerated, even enjoyed, while low levels of complex distortions are not tolerated so well. Complexity goes beyond the harmonic structure, of course, and includes relationships to signal dynamics and phase errors introduced by crossover components and speaker design, not to speak of digital and analog processing.

I knew I read something like this before. I found it. Here's an excerpt from Srajan Ebean's 2001 Article in Positive Feedback found here: http://www.soundstage.com/yfiles/yfiles200107.htm

Edit: He is presenting Jim Thiel's view

Proponents of properly implemented first-order designs argue that the added work of translating spatially scrambled signals into any semblance of realism causes subconscious exhaustion in our ear/brain decoder. This manifests as eventual listener fatigue. Common and readily identifiable causes of listener fatigue (to mention a few) are unsuitably high playback levels, exaggerated treble and undamped ringing from metal drivers. The fatigue caused by time-and-phase anomalies is much harder to identify. We're simply not conscious of how our brain analyzes, discounts or integrates such "reminders of artifice" into a satisfactory reconstruction of the audio signal. In fact, the relative insidiousness of these playback errors means they turn obnoxious, in an indirect way, only over the long haul. Without a clear "Aha, that's what's wrong with my system" insight, listening sessions may simply shorten. The apparent cause may be a subtle discomfort, a wandering of attention or perhaps a diminished sense of enjoyment and relaxation that listening to the system originally bestowed. Needless to say, an appreciation for the subtle benefits of designs that avoid this extra decoding on the part of our sensory system won't reveal themselves in short-term dealer demonstrations.

[FullRangeMan]

I fail to find the Dr.Matti Otala distortion experiment but this are good too:
http://www.axiomaudio.com/distortion