Jeff's Fountek 3" FR88EX

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Danny Richie

Jeff's Fountek 3" FR88EX
« on: 6 Feb 2014, 10:23 pm »
It can be done, but you will probably need to use something like this:

http://www.veneersupplies.com/products/Super-Soft-2-Veneer-Softener-Conditioner.html

I used Super-Soft 2 to build some small desktop speakers and I was able to wrap raw walnut veneer around a 3/8" round over.  Here are a few pictures:


Check out my Gallery for more pictures

Jeff, your speakers just arrived. I'll be letting them warm up a bit before measuring them for you.

The cabinets look great.

What driver is this in these?
« Last Edit: 7 Feb 2014, 02:47 pm by Danny Richie »

planet10

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Re: Jeff
« Reply #1 on: 6 Feb 2014, 10:29 pm »
Quote
What driver is this in these

Looks like a Fountek... FR88/89ex or the cheap ceramic magnet variation (FE85ex or something like that)

dave

jeffh

Re: Jeff
« Reply #2 on: 6 Feb 2014, 10:39 pm »
Danny,

The driver is the Fountek 3" FR88EX.  I got them from Madisound.

Danny Richie

Re: Jeff's Fountek 3" FR88EX
« Reply #3 on: 7 Feb 2014, 09:31 pm »
Okay, here is what's going on with the Fountek FR88EX.

Here is the frequency response measured in Jeff's box.



It's not bad actually. There is an expected baffle step loss below 1kHz. That is typical for any driver used in a small box.

Here is the effect of Jeff's grill.



Great job on the grill. This thin design has a very minimal effect on the response.

The off axis response looks pretty typical of a small driver too.



The impedance looks good and is free of any box resonances. Tuning frequency is just over 65Hz.



And here are the two speakers. There is a little variance between the two in the lower range, but it's not too bad.



This is where the rubber meets the road though. If there was just one measurement that you can do that will tell you more about how a speaker will sound it's the cumulative spectral decay. It will show you stored energy or ringing issues over time. Stored energy or cone break up is very easy to hear. It will add a little residual ring to everything. And this little driver clearly has some issues in that department. Here is a csd response.



There is actually a peak in the response above 20kHz that shows up in the csd. The top of this peak is where the computer sets the 0 on the scale. So everything is artificially pushed down on the scale. Let me bring the whole scale up 5db and you will see that there is significant break up in the 1kHz to 4kHz range. It is taking a long time to go away.



This is actually typical metal cone issues. For some reason a lot of people have been lead to believe that these stiffer cones will have lower distortion. As that lower distortion will equate to cleaner sound. The typical distortion levels are 40 to 50db down from the average output and only +/- a couple of db between various drivers. It's really hard to hear those differences because they are at such a low level. Cone break up adds a ringing as stored energy that continues to ring long after the original note has ended. This is easy to hear.

So I added a small inductor and Mills resistor to this as a baffle step loss compensation filter. This will help the sound a lot. See the before and after curves. 



This keeps 1kHz range and above from being pushed forward in the sound stage. So imaging is improved And check out the csd.



If you flip back and forth from the first csd posted then you will see that the range from 1kHz and down is up now. But if you really consider what is going on then you can understand that with the output of the 1kHz range and down being equal, then the break up from 1khz and up has been reduced by 5db. A 5db reduction in output means it didn't play near as loud and wasn't as excited. So it induces less ringing. It is like looking at the second csd response that I posted that looked really scary and having that graph from 1kHz and down, but having the results of the first one from 1kHz and up. In short, at the same output level the ringing will be less sever.

Compare that with the csd of the LGK's that I posted in this thread: http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=120804.0



Now can you see how the spectral decay can tell you more about how a driver will really sound than any other measurement? Pretty cool huh.
« Last Edit: 11 Feb 2014, 07:47 pm by Danny Richie »

Redefy Audio

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Re: Jeff's Fountek 3" FR88EX
« Reply #4 on: 8 Feb 2014, 01:38 am »
Danny,

great post  :thumb: and thank you for sharing :).

cheers
Henry

jeffh

Re: Jeff's Fountek 3" FR88EX
« Reply #5 on: 11 Feb 2014, 04:01 am »
Danny,
Thank you for taking the time to measure my speakers and for the very detailed explanation of the results.  I learn a lot every time you post something like this.   A couple of questions:
  • Is the variance in the two speakers just the results of a difference in the driver characteristics or something with my box?
  • Based on the off axis measurements, I should have the speakers turned to face me, correct?
  • What is the angle for the different measurements on the off axis measurement?  Sorry if it is in the graph.
I am still trying to get my head around the waterfall graphs.  Not something I have really understood in the past.  I will take some time and study them. I can definitely  see the difference between the FR88EX and the LGK waterfall graph.

I can't wait to install the baffle step loss compensation filter to hear the difference it makes.   Then, I will compare them to the LGK's. I have my LGK flat pack from Ben and I am ready to start building as soon as you have the drivers available.

Danny Richie

Re: Jeff's Fountek 3" FR88EX
« Reply #6 on: 11 Feb 2014, 04:25 am »
Quote
Is the variance in the two speakers just the results of a difference in the driver characteristics or something with my box?

Probably just a variance between your drivers.

Quote
Based on the off axis measurements, I should have the speakers turned to face me, correct?

Yep.

Quote
What is the angle for the different measurements on the off axis measurement?  Sorry if it is in the graph.

It is on axis, 10, 20, 30, and 40 degrees off axis.

Quote
I am still trying to get my head around the waterfall graphs.  Not something I have really understood in the past.  I will take some time and study them. I can definitely  see the difference between the FR88EX and the LGK waterfall graph.

The waterfall graph is where the real telling information can be found. Ideally you want the driver to play the signal and immediately return to rest. The faster it returns to rest the cleaner it will sound.

Hank

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Re: Jeff's Fountek 3" FR88EX
« Reply #7 on: 11 Feb 2014, 06:49 pm »
Jeff, Danny is saying that the shorter the decay time, the better.  IOW, the shorter the traces on the Z axis that appear to come off the page are, the better.  I hope that helps a bit.

steveww

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Re: Jeff's Fountek 3" FR88EX
« Reply #8 on: 13 Feb 2014, 09:32 pm »
Very interesting. I am just about to build a pair to this design. Would you care to share what values you used for the baffle filter? You mention a small inductor and resistor but it would be great to know the values as the result looks like they worked well.

Danny Richie

Re: Jeff's Fountek 3" FR88EX
« Reply #9 on: 14 Feb 2014, 05:16 pm »
Very interesting. I am just about to build a pair to this design. Would you care to share what values you used for the baffle filter? You mention a small inductor and resistor but it would be great to know the values as the result looks like they worked well.

$33.02 was the total for the filter for both speakers.  :D  You get the parts and a wiring diagram. Erse XQ air core inductors and Mills resistors.

steveww

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Re: Jeff's Fountek 3" FR88EX
« Reply #10 on: 14 Feb 2014, 07:01 pm »
Sorry you list me there. I asked about the component values used in the baffle filter. I do not understand your answer, please provide some more context.

Danny Richie

Re: Jeff's Fountek 3" FR88EX
« Reply #11 on: 14 Feb 2014, 07:15 pm »
Sorry you list me there. I asked about the component values used in the baffle filter. I do not understand your answer, please provide some more context.

Okay, the parts only cost $33.02. You buy the parts from me and in addition you get the wiring diagram and my support. And you get benefit of my design work for free. That's a pretty good deal. All for just the cost of a few parts.

What I don't do is put forth time and effort into my design work then give the information away for free so everyone can buy their parts elsewhere.

gregfisk

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Re: Jeff's Fountek 3" FR88EX
« Reply #12 on: 14 Feb 2014, 09:07 pm »
What I don't do is put forth time and effort into my design work then give the information away for free so everyone can buy their parts elsewhere.
[/quote]

Of course you don't Danny, you already give a lot of your time to us for free and we all need to make a living. I for one appreciate it very much.

Thank You!

Mr. Oczka

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Re: Jeff's Fountek 3" FR88EX
« Reply #13 on: 14 Feb 2014, 09:10 pm »
Danny,  I can't believe that you don't give this info out for free!!   :lol: :lol: :lol: 

Concerning other full range speakers, are you accepting orders for your new full range driver yet?  I know you said the shipment was delayed due to the Chinese new year.  If so, I will be contacting you to order a pair as well as a couple of filters (plus diagrams) unless you are giving out that info for free. :duh: :duh: :duh:

Thanks,

Tom

Danny Richie

Re: Jeff's Fountek 3" FR88EX
« Reply #14 on: 14 Feb 2014, 09:54 pm »
Danny,  I can't believe that you don't give this info out for free!!   :lol: :lol: :lol: 

Concerning other full range speakers, are you accepting orders for your new full range driver yet?  I know you said the shipment was delayed due to the Chinese new year.  If so, I will be contacting you to order a pair as well as a couple of filters (plus diagrams) unless you are giving out that info for free. :duh: :duh: :duh:

Thanks,

Tom

I am not taking pre-orders on the LGK drivers. Everyone can just order them when they get here. I don't need to hold your money to keep your place in line or something. I ordered hundreds of them. So everyone will be able to get them.

You guys will be able to order just the drivers only ($29 a piece) and you can use them in any application that you can think of. Or you can order a complete kit that is the drivers, compensation filters, wire, connectors, ports, plans, screws... all in one neat little package. And you can even buy parts and pieces of the kit, like just the drivers, then the kit minus the drivers later.

Mr. Oczka

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Re: Jeff's Fountek 3" FR88EX
« Reply #15 on: 14 Feb 2014, 10:04 pm »
Danny,

Thanks for the info!  I look forward to ordering them.

Tom

steveww

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Re: Jeff's Fountek 3" FR88EX
« Reply #16 on: 17 Feb 2014, 09:48 am »
Okay, the parts only cost $33.02. You buy the parts from me and in addition you get the wiring diagram and my support. And you get benefit of my design work for free. That's a pretty good deal. All for just the cost of a few parts.

What I don't do is put forth time and effort into my design work then give the information away for free so everyone can buy their parts elsewhere.

OK I did not realise this forum was commercial. Sorry to have bothered you.

Danny Richie

Re: Jeff's Fountek 3" FR88EX
« Reply #17 on: 17 Feb 2014, 02:47 pm »
OK I did not realise this forum was commercial. Sorry to have bothered you.

Understandable.... and not a bother.

I am a professional loudspeaker designer. It's what I do day in and day out. Check this out: http:/www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=94764

And the circuit that you are interested in is very inexpensive and just a phone call away. I'll be glad to help you with it or anything else that you need.

devinkato

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Re: Jeff's Fountek 3" FR88EX
« Reply #18 on: 18 Feb 2014, 10:42 pm »
Hey Danny,

Semi - related to your work on this - Was wondering if this was a service you provided (loudspeaker analysis/simple network design) on a regular basis, or if this was a special case?

So temping to pick up some FR88EXs and trying out your network, but I'm forcing myself to wait for the LGKs :)

Danny Richie

Re: Jeff's Fountek 3" FR88EX
« Reply #19 on: 18 Feb 2014, 11:17 pm »
Hey Danny,

Semi - related to your work on this - Was wondering if this was a service you provided (loudspeaker analysis/simple network design) on a regular basis, or if this was a special case?

So temping to pick up some FR88EXs and trying out your network, but I'm forcing myself to wait for the LGKs :)

Design services are always there for anyone.

http://gr-research.com/services.aspx

And I have had a long standing policy that I'll measure and test anyone's speakers for them for free if they cover the shipping both ways. Now if it is pretty large or heavy then I'd need to be compensated for un-packing and repacking.

The FR88EX's were not bad after the filter from an amplitude standpoint, but they still had a lot of cone break up and ringing. The LGK's are much cleaner, and less money!   :green:  I'd hold out for them.