The Manipulated Vortex Waveguide speaker - the Event Horizon 210

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brj

Quote from: Duke
My description may well have been imprecise and/or incorrect in some ways.  Getting back to the jet engine example, the vortex generated by a jet engine has a profound effect on the sound of that engine well beyond the distance that the swirling vortex itself extends.

Much of the noise from a jet or rocket engine results from the shear layer formed at the interface between the exhaust gas and the freestream.  The relative velocity (and pressure, temperature, density, etc.) of each is radically different, and you end up with a vigorous, even violent, free shear flow.  Turbulent, absolutely, but I'd hesitate to imply that any form of stable, coherent vortex exists.  Certainly they don't generate a clean toroidal vortex, ala the classic smoke ring.

If the toroidal vortex is what you're looking to describe, then perhaps a "vortex cannon" would provide a better analogy?  Examples abound, from the student project, to the overly enthusiastic, to the crowd control concepts.  Though even then, these rely on the center of the air pulse moving faster than the edge so that you "roll up" the toroidal vortex.  This runs a bit counter to the idea of a speaker driver by itself, where you're typically aiming for pure pistonic motion, but it appears that the specific enclosure features handle that aspect for you, much like the "barrels" of the "cannons" shown in the links above.  That said, I'd be curious to know if a driver vibrating at higher frequencies can actually set up a fully formed toroidal vortex even with the help of the cabinet.  It seems most likely at the lowest end of the audio range.

The details of sound travel through such air disturbances, I'll leave for others, though it occurs to me that those studying the aeroacoustics of helicopter rotor blades might have looked at some of this, as a rotating rotor blade on a hovering helicopter would create what is essentially a toroidal vortex as well.

None of this should be taken as criticism of the idea you're working on Duke, and you should absolutely protect the intellectual property you're working so hard to develop.  I think there is just a desire for any naming or description to accurately reflect the science involved.  Marketing efforts have taken so many liberties with legitimate scientific language and principles over the years that I suspect that those in your target market with even the remotest interest in how things work may not hang around long enough to hear your product if the fundamental mechanisms are described in a manner that is perceived as "fake".  This is probably especially true when you're trying to break new scientific ground.  (And yes, it can be painfully challenging to reduce the complex down to a point where those that are interested, but lacking complete background in a field, can absorb and appreciate the details in full.)

I wish that I'd had a chance to hear them, but when I finally made it to your room at the end of the day on Sunday, I was so focused on the LCS system that I obviously gave them short shrift.  I look forward to hearing next year's RMAF incarnation!

JohnR

I don't think Duke can change the name of it as it was invented by those other guys.

Other than that, I'm confused as heck :D

But I'm just really intrigued that there's a new type of enclosure. Who would have thought? Looking forward to reading/learning more about it in future.

Thomas Ewers

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Hi Guys I am BigE of BigE Loudspeakers.

We Hope to clarify things a touch.

If you wanted a more conventional name we could have stuck with a ...
Frequency Independent Virtual Compression Labyrinth Horn.

This naming convention however ignores the fact that we actually induce Vortex Shedding intentionally inside the cabinet. The theory of Vortex Sound is actively taught still today and was re-examined after the advent of the Jet engine to explain why it is so dang loud. Upon review of M.S. Howes textbook we found many correlations. It is however a graduate level MATH book. Fun!!! In the book vortex sound does not require a spinning ring like a vortex ring from a Dolphin or Vortex Cannon (While totally cool) it is the study of all non-laminar flow (turbulent flow) and interactions of such.

As for the Frequency independent part we have utilized the same cabinet as both a dual driver 8" sub or cross-fired Coax loaded PA top. Driver seems to tune the cab more than the other way around.. Not to say it is completely independent as the size of the cab can limit extension on top or bottom of the frequency range.

Duke

Hi Guys I am BigE of BigE Loudspeakers.

We Hope to clarify things a touch.

If you wanted a more conventional name we could have stuck with a ...
Frequency Independent Virtual Compression Labyrinth Horn.

This naming convention however ignores the fact that we actually induce Vortex Shedding intentionally inside the cabinet. The theory of Vortex Sound is actively taught still today and was re-examined after the advent of the Jet engine to explain why it is so dang loud. Upon review of M.S. Howes textbook we found many correlations. It is however a graduate level MATH book. Fun!!! In the book vortex sound does not require a spinning ring like a vortex ring from a Dolphin or Vortex Cannon (While totally cool) it is the study of all non-laminar flow (turbulent flow) and interactions of such.

As for the Frequency independent part we have utilized the same cabinet as both a dual driver 8" sub or cross-fired Coax loaded PA top. Driver seems to tune the cab more than the other way around.. Not to say it is completely independent as the size of the cab can limit extension on top or bottom of the frequency range.

Thanks for posting, Tom! 

It occurs to me that physical spinning or turbulence of the air itself out beyond the cabinet may not be required for the sound to behave as if it's in a vortex.   The compression driver on a horn comes to mind as an example:  the air itself isn't actually flowing through the phase plug and being compressed - the air molecules are really just moving back-and-forth a small distance - but the sound energy behaves as if that's what's happening, and the result (increased efficiency) extends out well beyond the cabinet itself.
« Last Edit: 18 Oct 2013, 12:24 am by Duke »

Berndt

Welcome to AC, Thomas!
A friend of Dukes is a great thing.
Look forward to hearing this beast.

Duke

None of this should be taken as criticism of the idea you're working on Duke, and you should absolutely protect the intellectual property you're working so hard to develop.  I think there is just a desire for any naming or description to accurately reflect the science involved.  Marketing efforts have taken so many liberties with legitimate scientific language and principles over the years that I suspect that those in your target market with even the remotest interest in how things work may not hang around long enough to hear your product if the fundamental mechanisms are described in a manner that is perceived as "fake".  This is probably especially true when you're trying to break new scientific ground.  (And yes, it can be painfully challenging to reduce the complex down to a point where those that are interested, but lacking complete background in a field, can absorb and appreciate the details in full.)

Thanks for your kind words, Brian.  Hopefully Tom's post has shed some actual light, as he understands this stuff, whereas I'm just winging it from the bits and pieces that have stuck in my mind.  I'm the blind man trying to describe the elephant.

I'd be curious to know if a driver vibrating at higher frequencies can actually set up a fully formed toroidal vortex even with the help of the cabinet.  It seems most likely at the lowest end of the audio range.

To the best of my knowledge you are correct that it's the longer wavelengths that are involved in the vortex shedding.  Fortunately they seem to act as a carrier wave for the shorter wavelengths - and no, I don't begin to understand the mechanism.   But something is making the dispersion wider and more uniform than it should be.   

I don't think Duke can change the name of it as it was invented by those other guys.

Other than that, I'm confused as heck :D

But I'm just really intrigued that there's a new type of enclosure. Who would have thought? Looking forward to reading/learning more about it in future.

I can't begin to tell you how exhilirating it is for me to be involved in this project, even though my technical contributions are in the peripheral area of crossover design.   The implications are pretty big, I think.   Over in the bass cab world where the technology essentially made its battlefield debut, the MVW cabs are totally kicking my butt.  I used to build what were arguably the best boutique bass cabs of their general type, but now I'll have to find a different niche if I'm going to stay competitive over there. 

James Romeyn

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Not one, but two new designs unveiled?
Youvguys are killing me. How low do they go?

I'm sure Duke replied, but in case not...Duke mentioned to me f3 circa 40 Hz and that sounds about right.  Open low E on electric bass and double bass is 41 Hz.

It did seem like Dream Maker LCS went lower.  IIRC boundary reinforcement causes DM LCS Effects Speaker to have slightly lower cutoff (low 30s) than the Main Speaker (mid-high 30s).  (One visitor, after the on-off Effects Speaker demo, thought it was a sub.  It likely does provide a slightly lower bass cutoff, but a lot more than that too.) 

As Duke likely mentions in this thread, I've not heard anything start/stop like this Vortex thingy ever, including many outrageous horns like the Volti Vitora next door.  Scot Hull already reviewed Vitora, then heard it at RM, and said the recent post-Stereophile review (Class A, diminished low bass) improvements are hugely audible.  Vitora sounded absolutely huge, but where I sat far L not even close in neutrality vs. AudioKinesis.  Cupped hands effect too, but extremely broad range/not narrow so you can adapt to that.       

Anyway, back to Vortex...extremely arresting....you can't easily have conversation while they play because the sound is so deep in your head...not just loud.  The sound is as dense as I've ever heard, likely more so.  SPL wise they will crack walls even with the S30 we used.  Duke may disagree, but I thought maybe a couple times the S30 might have run out of juice powering DM LCS, sounded better when I turned it down.  Conversely, Vortex never ever any hint of strain and levels that made me retreat to the alcove in back.

On a side note no apparent long term ear damage from the show thank goodness. 

Hey, did Duke mention he used 16 or 18AWG on the Vortex, about 30', with tiny little alligator leads on the end to make it easier to switch with Dream Maker?

Remarkable sweet and wide image and just incredibly good first impression. 

First meeting with Scot Hull, pro reviewer, Confessions of a Part Time Audiophile.  He first listens to the Vortex, is just slack jawed, he can't fit this into any pre-existing paradigm (he recently reviewed the above mentioned Vitora behemoth horns). 

After the audition, prior to hearing Dream Maker...Scot approaches Duke taking a brief break (probably sleeping while standing up after being so sleep deprived) in the back alcove.  Scot is a big guy, thick black hair and black beard IIRC, has this huge camera and light tree, he looks sternly at Duke and says, as if Duke is in trouble: "Now the first thing is why do those speakers sound so good and image and stage like that pushed up against the wall?  That's not supposed to happen!"   

Scot's as close as a pro reviewer can get to our dear Tyson.  Honestly, I am sure Tyson and Pez have made permanent imprint and changed the entire show review Gestalt.

Vortex: about as consistent in top/down response as I've ever heard.  If there was any irregularity or FR glitch I never caught it.  One does wonder how they sound per Cardas setup, spaced out from the wall.  But the credenza/console begs to be next to the wall. 

The more you hear them the more you want to listen.  Absolutely no fatigue except a couple times it was just a bit loud for me.  They have this immediacy and extreme coherence, kind of like a stat that plays like a horn but better than any prior horn. 

IMO less treble extension vs. DM LCS, but I'm 6-3, maybe better down lower, don't know.  Thing is though you don't really care about that once they start playing. 

Big E licensed Pro bassist Mike Arnopol to make the bass guitar Vortex cabs.  TalkBass forum speaker techs have ripped Mike several new orifices for claims such as maximum output, dynamics increase with input, room loading, speed, start/stop, etc, etc.  I have to agree with Mike: there are two camps, skeptics and those who heard it.  Bass mode wise, I will state categorically, although DM LCS goes about 1/2 octave lower...I'm convinced the Vortex had less modal effects even though DM LCS damps bass modes via six mid bass all with different boundary path lengths and eight ports to close or leave open.   

These Vortex thingys are a new paradigm.  Doesn't matter if they can't explain it properly or if science says LLPOF.  The lap times tell the story.

I liked the Vortex look first time I saw them.  The cabinet is simultaneously 50s retro and modern somehow.  Scot said "They're the ugliest best sounding speakers in the world!"  Owner/proprietor of San Francisco Audio Vision (super high end) Antonio came in twice with a woman.  Second time she had her high end camera phone, she (discreetly) took a lot of images, and he kept nudging her to get more.  I can only imagine he:
  • Was spying
  • Didn't want the world to know he fell in love with a strange speaker he doesn't resell
  • Combination of the above     
« Last Edit: 24 Oct 2013, 02:23 pm by James Romeyn »

James Romeyn

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OK, but a jet engine has a whole lot of air flowing through and exiting out the exhaust. The air flowing past or over an exhaust structure will produce many vortices. But for a speaker there is no net air flow, just very small air oscillations. Maybe the internals of your speaker enclosure use standing wave resonances very creatively to generate an increase in efficiency and great sound, but I have my doubts about any vortex being created.

Call the Volti Audio guy and ask him what was the sound like in his room Saturday night from our room two rooms over from his.  I've been around dozens or hundreds of so-called ultra high powered floor to ceiling subs, studio experience, Different Fur, Record Plant, others.  Nothing I've ever heard including Infinity IRS III in a pro built sound room had the overall impact of the Event Horizon 210.  Surely, absolutely nothing stops and starts like it.

45W per channel we used.   

EH 210 reminds me of Doc Kupka walking into the Record Plant Control Room warming up his baritone sax. 

   

mamba315

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Found this on the Big E forum posted October 5th.  I know I'm curious how these things work and I'll bet I'm not alone.

"We want to thank the Bass community for being the first to embrace our MVW technology. Now that we have done the legal groundwork to protect our intellectual property the time has come to say "Thank You". In a hat tip to the Bass community Tom and I are preparing to reveal the workings of the MVW technology in an upcoming issue of Bass Gear Magazine. This will be the first public unveiling of the working of our technology - Thanks Bass Players. "

I haven't been in the large local bookstores lately that carry the most magazines, so I don't know if this mag is available locally.  I'll hunt local retail if I have to, but is there an online way to order a single issue?  I live "a bit" outta town these days, so the drive isn't always cherished.

BTW, really fond of the finish on the show speakers.  I know the look was possibly some last-minute serendipity, but it makes a very strong statement to me that fits this new design.  While looking at the pics on PTA, my mind jumped to the popular Hitachi Maxell photo.  Seems like a good match, visually and perhaps sonically as well.


James Romeyn

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http://www.bassgearmag.com/bgm

www.talkbass.com/forum/f15/


most recent Big E thread is here : http://www.talkbass.com/forum/f15/big-e-speakers-pt-3-a-1020840/

Older big E threads : http://www.talkbass.com/forum/f15/big-e-speakers-pt-2-a-963685/#post13971248    and http://www.talkbass.com/forum/f15/big-e-speakers-898299/index53.html

Quiet Earth,
Thanks for posting the links!

I found no Big E connection in the top two links.  The Talk Bass links worked, and I subscribed to Part 3.  Looks like Mike stirred up quite the hornet's nest with his MVW cabinets for bass guitar and amplified double bass.

Tyson

I wish I'd had a chance to hear them.  For reference, the GR Research Open Baffle Servo Subs are my current standard for what bass can be.  It's on a different playing field entirely from anything else I've ever heard.  But reading this thread makes me thing the EH-210 might be a real challenger.

Has anyone considered making it in a bigger cab and tuned a bit lower to make it into a true subwoofer for use with regular "main speakers"?  Seems like these would make nice "stands" for a small bookshelf speaker, or even a large bookshelf speaker like Geddes stuff that doesn't do real bass, but does great mids/highs.   

Duke

Found this on the Big E forum posted October 5th.  I know I'm curious how these things work and I'll bet I'm not alone.

"We want to thank the Bass community for being the first to embrace our MVW technology. Now that we have done the legal groundwork to protect our intellectual property the time has come to say "Thank You". In a hat tip to the Bass community Tom and I are preparing to reveal the workings of the MVW technology in an upcoming issue of Bass Gear Magazine. This will be the first public unveiling of the working of our technology - Thanks Bass Players. "

I haven't been in the large local bookstores lately that carry the most magazines, so I don't know if this mag is available locally.  I'll hunt local retail if I have to, but is there an online way to order a single issue?  I live "a bit" outta town these days, so the drive isn't always cherished.

BTW, really fond of the finish on the show speakers.  I know the look was possibly some last-minute serendipity, but it makes a very strong statement to me that fits this new design.  While looking at the pics on PTA, my mind jumped to the popular Hitachi Maxell photo.  Seems like a good match, visually and perhaps sonically as well.

Thanks!

The Bass Gear article will be coming out some time shortly after January 2014, so it'll be a little while yet.

I wish I'd had a chance to hear them.  For reference, the GR Research Open Baffle Servo Subs are my current standard for what bass can be.  It's on a different playing field entirely from anything else I've ever heard.  But reading this thread makes me thing the EH-210 might be a real challenger.

Has anyone considered making it in a bigger cab and tuned a bit lower to make it into a true subwoofer for use with regular "main speakers"?  Seems like these would make nice "stands" for a small bookshelf speaker, or even a large bookshelf speaker like Geddes stuff that doesn't do real bass, but does great mids/highs.

I haven't used an MVW box in pure subwoofer mode yet myself, but did hear a subwoofer version in a home theater system last year.    The cabinet shape itself is not very flexible, in contrast with a sealed or vented box.  The cabinet isn't tuned in the sense that one tunes a vented box; it's more like a particular size driver calls for a particular set of dimensions (internal and external) for the cab.  There is a bit of leeway, with low-frequency extension predictably improving as the box grows in size, but only up to a point.   Nor does it perform as well with a vertical orientation, so I'm not sure how well it would work as a stand... but it would certaily work as a sub.   The same enclosure can be used for either a wideband woofer or for a subwoofer; in other words, the characteristics of the speaker itself are the dominant factor in low-end extension, assuming corners haven't been cut in the box design.

But the technology does the "slam" thing very well, so a subwoofer system is a logical step at some point.  Thanks for your ideas! 

Thomas Ewers

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Has anyone considered making it in a bigger cab and tuned a bit lower to make it into a true subwoofer for use with regular "main speakers"?  Seems like these would make nice "stands" for a small bookshelf speaker, or even a large bookshelf speaker like Geddes stuff that doesn't do real bass, but does great mids/highs.

Yes we have up to 21" subs functioning already. We have a night club running on two of our 218SLVX iterations that is a Double 18 in a box about 56" IIRC Wide. They Thump and at war volume start making the dance floor feel like liquefaction. . The 21s will easily go infrasonic. But a single 21 is about 48"x40"x26" or so in Lil'E configuration which is like a huge version of just one side of the top down firing. Pics on our website.

A well tuned RachE 12 with a Lab12 Driver should be able to get down Infrasonic as well and make a darn good HT sub.

Thomas Ewers

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I haven't been in the large local bookstores lately that carry the most magazines, so I don't know if this mag is available locally.  I'll hunt local retail if I have to, but is there an online way to order a single issue?  I live "a bit" outta town these days, so the drive isn't always cherished.

I believe you can order them online and you can definitely view it online.

mamba315

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Anything new here to report?  When is their estimated release?

Duke

Anything new here to report?  When is their estimated release?

Well, the first order for a pair of Event Horizon 210s was place a little over a week ago.  They're going in a very large living room.  Some custom woodwork is involved and the build will probably take a while, but I'll post pictures when they are finished.   

In addition to the large three-way Event Horizon 210, there is a medium-sized two-way under development.   

The pair that we showed at RMAF is theoretically available... I say "theoretically" because my wife has started referring to them as her speakers. 

The mid/tweet module (top part) of the pair destined for the large living room will differ somewhat from the mid/tweet module that we showed at RMAF because we're going with a physically very large compression driver that has a beryllium diaphragm.  In the past I have shied away from ubertweeters, because I've heard far too many speakers with amazing ubertweeters where the mid/woofer section was clearly outclassed.  So despite how nice the top end was, I found myself unable to relax into enjoying the music because the disparity was constantly making itself known.  Well, the manipulated vortex weveguide is imo capable of keeping up with an ubertweeter, and I wanted one that would have no dynamic limitations for all practical purposes, so we went with a beryllium-diaphragm compression driver.   This will of course be available as an option, but note that retail on the driver is $1100/pair. 

Berndt

I keep thinking I am looking at my next set of speakers.

Leland Crooks

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A well tuned RachE 12 with a Lab12 Driver should be able to get down Infrasonic as well and make a darn good HT sub.

I'm late to the party but thought I'd chime in.  I am the prosound, ht, and middle home audio segment of the MVW world.  I completed last week the sub Tom refers to above.  It's a modification of the prosound subs designed for maximum extension rather than maximum output.  Stunning is the description.  Effortless and transparent.  Not usually adjectives I'd use to describe a sub.  Deep enough to rattle your insides, it goes infrasonic easily.  The transition from it to the tops was invisible. 

It's part of a prototype system going to a high end shop for evaluation. 
« Last Edit: 14 Dec 2013, 01:46 pm by Leland Crooks »

mamba315

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So, would this sub be good in a "swarm" config with Dukes upcoming 2-way?