[avahifi]

Dennis just sent me a pair of Pioneer 22 speakers he has upgraded.  New tweeters, revised crossovers, and now much flatter frequency response and the midrange dip and ratty top end is fixed.

I am comparing them right now with a stock pair using my level matched ABX box and my first impressions are very favorable.

I will write a more detailed report when I have listened a lot longer to them.

Dennis told me he hope to be able to provide upgraded speakers for about $150 a pair complete, and that will make them a bigger bargain than the stock ones were.

Frank Van Alstine

[Ericus Rex]

Dennis just sent me a pair of Pioneer 22 speakers he has upgraded.  New tweeters, revised crossovers, and now much flatter frequency response and the midrange dip and ratty top end is fixed.

I am comparing them right now with a stock pair using my level matched ABX box and my first impressions are very favorable.

I will write a more detailed report when I have listened a lot longer to them.

Dennis told me he hope to be able to provide upgraded speakers for about $150 a pair complete, and that will make them a bigger bargain than the stock ones were.

Frank Van Alstine

This sounds awesome!  Do you know if he plans on offering an upgrade kit for those of us who already have the speakers?

[dB Cooper]

That sounds like an excellent idea.

Been following this thread and the fact that it is 25+ pages shows that there is a lot of interest in "cheap-n-cheerful" hifi.

[raysracing]

That sounds like an excellent idea.

Been following this thread and the fact that it is 25+ pages shows that there is a lot of interest in "cheap-n-cheerful" hifi.

Some or many of us don't have a choice but to be C&C. Just a love for music and sound with no budget.

[DMurphy]

This sounds awesome!  Do you know if he plans on offering an upgrade kit for those of us who already have the speakers?

Hi.   I'll await Frank's final word before I make any definite plans.  There are actually 2 mods--the full blown version that Frank has, and a much simpler one that can easily be done
in the field.  Unfortunately, shipping costs(for the parts and for your speakers) pretty much rule out my doing retrofits for people, and the full mod is probably more than you would want to take on yourself.  But all of this is academic for the moment. 

[Wayner]

How about a kit with instructions (and parts)?

Wayner

[dB Cooper]

Some or many of us don't have a choice but to be C&C. Just a love for music and sound with no budget.

Hey... Wait a minnit.... THAT'S ME!!! 
Actually, that's my definition of an "audiophile"- "someone who cares about music and sound", not necessarily "someone who drops megabucks on an audio system".

Dennis, does the "full blown" version require cabinet mod of some sort or is the substitute tweeter a "drop in"?

[charmerci]

Dennis, does the "full blown" version require cabinet mod of some sort or is the substitute tweeter a "drop in"?

I can't seem to find his post on another forum but IIRC, one is just replacing/adding a capacitor and the other is a new xover with the Vifa tweeter.

[dlparker]

I can't seem to find his post on another forum but IIRC, one is just replacing/adding a capacitor and the other is a new xover with the Vifa tweeter.

Put me down for one of the Vifa plus x-over mods (actually two, I guess..)!

[AudioShopper]

I removed the text of this message, because I have now posted it as a new thread. Sorry, this was the first time I posted anything in the forum, and I made a mistake.

[charmerci]

.

[DMurphy]

I'm really reluctant to go into details on this until Frank and one other person have reported in.   But to answer one specific questions,  the Vifa is not quite a 100% drop in for the Pioneer.   The Pioneer has its + and - terminals next to each other.   The Vifa has them at opposite sides of the chassis.  So you have to make a lttle notch in the routing at the top to make room for the other Vifa terninal.  It's a snap with a jig saw, but I suspect a sharp knife would also work.   If you hate the Vifa and wish I never existed, you can replace the stock tweeter.  No problem there. 

[Ericus Rex]

Do keep us informed, Dennis.

Thanks!

[avahifi]

I have had time to do some serious listening and directly comparing a stock set of Pioneer 22 and ones with Dennis's full upgrade this weekend. The upgrade consists of a new tweeter and a revised crossover.

Both are connected to my level matching ABX box.  I used a new Transcendence Nine preamp, Synergy 300 and Fet Valve 600R amplifiers, my Sony PS-X5 turntable with special Denon DL103 "Longhorn" cartridge installed, and a prototype solid state passive EQ phono preamp set in the moving coil mode.

Attached are Before and After frequency response curves of the speakers.

I listened to a variety of vocal and instrumental recordings.  The overall difference between the speakers is quite well described by the curves.

First, the stock SP-BS22 remains a really nice little speaker and a great value as is.  However, in comparison to the "fixed" ones they are too hot in the mid treble range, have a big dip in the midrange so that female singers just loose their bodies - singing from the throat only and their sound get pinched on top.  Something is getting in the way in their low frequency response range too, just not as defined here either.

The "Dennis" 22s have much better bass definition, and much better overall balance.  The extreme top end is more defined and smooth.

Right now as I am writing this, I am switched to the stock speakers and every so often I am interrupted by the system for all the wrong reasons and I have to switch back to the upgraded 22s to get my attention back to this.

The upper midrange emphasis and hot treble of the stock 22s does not sound all that bad all by itself. I stand on my comments made when I started this thread eleven months and 26 pages ago.  The stock Pioneer SP-BS22 is a very good speaker and an outstanding value.

However Dennis's upgraded 22s  turns a great value into an extraordinary value and I highly recommend them, especially if he can furnish complete sets at $150 a pair.

I own a pair of the bigger Pioneer 52 towers that have been put away in their boxes since the second day I got them.  They are ready for UPS pickup today to ship to Dennis to see what new tweeters and a decent crossover can do for them.

What more can I say.

Frank Van Alstine

[dB Cooper]

What more can I say.

Frank Van Alstine

"Dennis is The Man"?

[DMurphy]

Thanks very much for the report Frank.  I just want to elaborate on one point.   The "before" plot you posted might alarm some current 22 owners, and might also generate a nasty call from Andrew Jones, since it looks like the stock 22 has a serious crossover design issue.  The problem is not with the crossover, but with quality control on the stock tweeter.  What you posted is definitely how this particular speaker measured before the mod, but it's the worst I've seen.  Other samples have measured better, although all differently.   In fairness to Andrew, I've posted how a much better sample measures.  In any event, the problem is not so much the frequency response, but an inherent lack of clarity in the lower range of the tweeter.   That's the main reason I swtiched tweeters. 

[avahifi]

I should point out that in making the comparison here, the stock pair we used were not the ones Dennis supplied the "better" frequency response for.

The samples I have here were purchased independently from a local Best Buy by my electrical engineer.

From the way they sound, I suspect their curves would be better represented by the "before" curve I posted.  Dennis has never seen this particular stock set of speakers.

Frank

[Donald]

Dennis,

Since many of us already have the speakers and it is not cost effective to ship the speakers to you for the complete mod, do you have a curve for just the tweeter change out?

2nd question: It may be of interest for us to ship just the crossover for the mod and each individual could then order and install the new tweeter? Would this be of interest? With flat rate shipping boxes, this may be cost effective depending on the cost of the crossover mod.

Thanks

[DMurphy]

I should point out that in making the comparison here, the stock pair we used were not the ones Dennis supplied the "better" frequency response for.

The samples I have here were purchased independently from a local Best Buy by my electrical engineer.

From the way they sound, I suspect their curves would be better represented by the "before" curve I posted.  Dennis has never seen this particular stock set of speakers.

Frank

Right.  I don't have a clue as to how your stock pair would measure.   What I find interesting is that all of the units I've listened to have had the same sonic signature irrespective of differences in the frequency response.  I can onl;y conclude that the tweeter's design limitations down low dominate quality control issues further up.  Thanks again for giving my mod such a careful evaluation.  For those of you who have never witnessed Frank's magic ABX comparo in action, it's an amazing machine, greatly to be feared by manufacturers and retailers of designer caps, coils, and connectors.  If there's no difference, you will hear no difference.  If there is, you will.  Assuming, of course, you don't know which test unit is being played. 

[Wayner]

I guess I'm confused. Are you fixing a specification error that Andrew over-looked or are you fixing a manufacturing tolerance defect? I certainly can't believe that Andrew would let a dip like this be the norm for standard product. And if you fixing this for a manufacturing tolerance, then none of the "repairs" will count, as one must assume that the deviation of the tweeter has a typical +/- tolerance to it's performance.

So, unless you sampled many units to determine that there is in fact a design error, or a manufacturing error, the fix has no frame of reference, as it seems the tweeter's performance can be "all over the place".

So then I must ask, what are you actually trying to accomplish here?

Wayner