listening room in new house

FullRangeMan · « **Reply #20 on:** 14 Nov 2012, 09:33 pm »

Quote from: mcallister on 14 Nov 2012, 11:37 am

Not trying to thread jack but maybe someone can help me out without starting a new thread.

I'm also in the midst of building a new house with a dedicated listening room/home theater. For my front three speakers I use 3 GR Research LS9s. Yes huge speakers therefore I need a large room. I'm looking at a minimum of 20x30 feet. With the 3x5x8 ratio mentioned that would make for a very high ceiling which I'm not sure is feasible. Any suggestions for dimensions for a room with these speakers would be greatly appreciated!!

If the 3m x 5m x 8m is too big, I would try this room JLM mention (2,8m x 4,1 x 6,7m or even 2,8 x 4,2m x 6,7m) seem perfect to a dedicated music room, with few forniture of course;

mcallister · « **Reply #21 on:** 14 Nov 2012, 10:10 pm »

Quote from: FULLRANGEMAN on 14 Nov 2012, 09:33 pm

If the 3m x 5m x 8m is too big, I would try this room JLM mention (2,8m x 4,1 x 6,7m or even 2,8 x 4,2m x 6,7m) seem perfect to a dedicated music room, with few forniture of course;

It's really the ceiling height I'm worried about. The 5m x 8m is actually a little small for what I'm wanting.

FullRangeMan · « **Reply #22 on:** 14 Nov 2012, 10:24 pm »

What is the ceilling height fit your needs??

mcallister · « **Reply #23 on:** 14 Nov 2012, 10:42 pm »

The plans I'm looking at the ceiling are only a out 8 feet high, granted I am using line arrays which have less ceiling interactions I'm wondering what problems if any I would have?

FullRangeMan · « **Reply #24 on:** 14 Nov 2012, 11:03 pm »

Hm... 3x8=2,4m this a rather low ceilling indeed, if you can not use a hi ceilling use this same, it will create ressonances, but you can use acoustic treatment in the ceilling.
So in the Wide and Depth use the Golden Ratio(1x1618x2618) to help music acoustics, if close to golden rule also do a good sound.

bpape · « **Reply #25 on:** 14 Nov 2012, 11:12 pm »

2.4 ceiling with 8 length breaks one of the rules of never having length or width be >= 3x the height.

Bryan

FullRangeMan · « **Reply #26 on:** 14 Nov 2012, 11:23 pm »

Would it be echo if had too hard surfaces??

so better use lot of rugs and curtains etc...

Wayner · « **Reply #27 on:** 14 Nov 2012, 11:48 pm »

I recall the "golden" ratio as being .61 to 1 to 1.61 (.61 being the lowest number of the 3D rectangle) which is ceiling height. That height in most homes is 8'. That means the next number is 13', and the next number is 21'. That simply implies that the room has non-participating boundaries that would induce standing waves. You can also set the speakers along the long wall with equally wonderful results.

Personally, I think Mr. Cardas simply stole his idea of his own unique golden rule and morphed it a bit to suit himself, but these rations are from biblical times. I believe many churches were built to these ratios, and we all know that many are very "mystical" in their natural reverberations and even power dynamics. Add a nice pipe organ and your in business......

Just my 2 cents.

Wayner

saisunil · « **Reply #28 on:** 15 Nov 2012, 12:05 am »

The best effective isolation we had was due to double fire-rated drywall with green glue in the ceiling AND homosote (spell) on the floor above ... significantly reduced the footfalls and isolated from the bedroom above ...

I have other issues but this by far was clearly audible or most easily noticed and appreciated - even by my wife ...

Do look into HVAC vents ... we do hear sound through them

FullRangeMan · « **Reply #29 on:** 15 Nov 2012, 12:17 am »

Quote from: Wayner on 14 Nov 2012, 11:48 pm

I recall the "golden" ratio as being .61 to 1 to 1.61 (.61 being the lowest number of the 3D rectangle) which is ceiling height. That height in most homes is 8'. That means the next number is 13', and the next number is 21'. That simply implies that the room has non-participating boundaries that would induce standing waves. You can also set the speakers along the long wall with equally wonderful results.

Personally, I think Mr. Cardas simply stole his idea of his own unique golden rule and morphed it a bit to suit himself, but these rations are from biblical times. I believe many churches were built to these ratios, and we all know that many are very "mystical" in their natural reverberations and even power dynamics. Add a nice pipe organ and your in business......

Just my 2 cents.

Wayner

You may be right, the golden ratio is a periodic nº = 1,6180339887...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_ratio

God give order to Moses to built the Covenant Arc according these ratios, so a golden ratio room is always something special.

MaxCast · « **Reply #30 on:** 15 Nov 2012, 01:31 am »

my suggestion is isolate the shit out of it, plan on absorbtion and diffusion and bigger is better.

jimdgoulding · « **Reply #31 on:** 15 Nov 2012, 02:44 am »

deleted

mcallister · « **Reply #32 on:** 15 Nov 2012, 11:47 am »

Quote from: bpape on 14 Nov 2012, 11:12 pm

2.4 ceiling with 8 length breaks one of the rules of never having length or width be >= 3x the height.

Bryan

I was never good at math and not sure how to translate the mentioned golden rule and other room calculations into room sizes so any help on this is greatly appreciated. If the room is 34" 8' x 18" 7' what height would be ideal? Are there any problems with that depth/width of the room?

Also the room will be heavily treated. In my current room I have 4 tri traps, 10 244's, and 14 224's. my plan is to add some diffusion in the new room however.

Wayner · « **Reply #33 on:** 15 Nov 2012, 12:39 pm »

Quote from: MaxCast on 15 Nov 2012, 01:31 am

my suggestion is isolate the shit out of it, plan on absorbtion and diffusion and bigger is better.

That is a good plan, but it's nice (if you have the option or opportunity) to take advantage of the basic math for the room. Perhaps less treatment would be needed.

I also believe that room symmetry is critical. That includes positions of windows, doors, etc.

Wayner

blutto · « **Reply #34 on:** 15 Nov 2012, 02:58 pm »

Quote from: Wayner on 15 Nov 2012, 12:39 pm

That is a good plan, but it's nice (if you have the option or opportunity) to take advantage of the basic math for the room. Perhaps less treatment would be needed.

I also believe that room symmetry is critical. That includes positions of windows, doors, etc.

Wayner

...agree absolutely that symmetry is critical....and oddly enough one of the key items that is overlooked when building a room from scratch ( when symmetry can be easily drawn into the design )...also keep in mind that windows are very good low frequency absorbers and their high frequency reflections can be very easily controlled by the use of appropriate coverings (... thus can be a key design element....doors are a little trickier..)..

...another suggestion that usually improves boundary performance is using a clip system when doing the ceiling assembly ( and of course in conjunction with green glue which is the best friend you can have for these sorts of projects...its nothing less than a gawd send... )....foot-fall noise is a big problem because of the predominately low frequency profile of the impact sound so a "brute force and ignorance" approach is recommended...another tip is to surface mount the electrial system and for gawd's sake no pot lights (... absolutely no breaks in the boundary surfaces allowed..)....and last but not least, robustly caulk the wall assemblies where they meet the floor....

Cheers

blutto

bpape · « **Reply #35 on:** 15 Nov 2012, 05:30 pm »

Quote from: mcallister on 15 Nov 2012, 11:47 am

I was never good at math and not sure how to translate the mentioned golden rule and other room calculations into room sizes so any help on this is greatly appreciated. If the room is 34" 8' x 18" 7' what height would be ideal? Are there any problems with that depth/width of the room?

Also the room will be heavily treated. In my current room I have 4 tri traps, 10 244's, and 14 224's. my plan is to add some diffusion in the new room however.

I would be careful with too many 242's. Use the Tri and 244's primarily and add the 242's as required.

As for the height, the with a 34' 8" length, the room would have to be at least 11'8". That's not any specific ratio - just tall enough to not break the 3x rule.

Bryan

Mmaxed · « **Reply #36 on:** 15 Nov 2012, 06:18 pm »

Quote from: mcallister on 14 Nov 2012, 11:37 am

Not trying to thread jack but maybe someone can help me out without starting a new thread.

Thanks for jumping in here. You have got more info flowing and more of it is sinking in for me. It's great when people that really know this stuff are willing to help those of us who don't have a clue.

mcallister · « **Reply #37 on:** 15 Nov 2012, 07:33 pm »

Quote from: bpape on 15 Nov 2012, 05:30 pm

I would be careful with too many 242's. Use the Tri and 244's primarily and add the 242's as required.

As for the height, the with a 34' 8" length, the room would have to be at least 11'8". That's not any specific ratio - just tall enough to not break the 3x rule.

Bryan

Thanks Brian. I did over due the 242s a little and some of them are in storage, if anyone is interested.

I now get what you mean by the 3x rule....

JohnR · « **Reply #38 on:** 16 Nov 2012, 12:03 am »

There's a very interesting and thorough article on room ratios here:

http://forum.studiotips.com/viewtopic.php?t=3148

In particular, the plot of the Louden ratios makes it easy to find an "optimum" set of ratios. I'll embed it here (if it allows it), but the full explanation is on the linked thread.

JLM · « **Reply #39 on:** 16 Nov 2012, 04:38 pm »

Best to start with the right room ratio (lots to choose from, Google is your friend, good advice above) and go as big as possible. Ceiling heights (especially in basements) is typically the limiting factor. Low ceiling heights in large rooms look awkward and sound terrible.

Then add treatments. With a blank slate to start with, much better/cheaper to start with the best ratio/biggest possible room.

Finally tweak with EQ if/as needed.