Capacitor variances and the effect.

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Danny Richie

Capacitor variances and the effect.
« on: 14 Jun 2004, 10:07 pm »
There has been some discussion in the past about the importance of a capacitor to be a specific value and how much of an audible effect the value has on how it sounds.

I will use measured responses to verify the variances in value changes.

The test speaker in this case will be an A/V-1.

This first measurement is shown just as most companies show responses (at least those that do publish response curves) on a 10db scale.

This is the most common and makes the speakers response look really nice and smooth.



We seldom ever even look at our response curves on this 10db scale. It does not allow a close enough look at the response.

We typically use a 5db scale for better perspective.

Shown below is the response curve on a 5db scale.



These made it into the +/1db level from 500Hz and up, and nearly make it into that range from 200Hz and up.

Now let's see how much difference a cap value change will make.

Below is the response curve just as above, which used a 6.8uF cap in the tweeter circuit and the difference in response when a 6.0uF cap is used in the circuit instead.



Note the difference in response. The greatest difference was made at 2,273Hz, and the difference was .54db. That is about 1/2 of a db difference in going from one standard cap value to the next.

This was a cap value difference of .8uF (a whole value change).

Differences in the drivers themselves can typically make as much or more difference than this.

How hard is it to hear 1/2 of a db difference centered at one point in the response? Pretty hard. In fact it is really hard.

If listening to a pair of speakers that has one cap value in one and one cap value in the other then the musical information in that area would be 1/6th as loud in that area. This would simply shift the image slightly toward one speaker by only a few degrees.

If listening to a mono pair of speakers this way and trying to compare them, then most people would never hear the difference in these two speakers.

For the average person to hear a difference there needs to be about a 3db difference in output level in an area for a difference to be heard. At leasts that is what has been said to be a known standard by members of the industry.

I feel that a trained ear could detect as little as maybe 1.5db difference in output in a given area.

I am talking about a change in a given area here and not a tipping up of one end or the other.

Yet some people have publicly stated that differences in cap values down to the third decimal place over can be heard. Third decimal place over? .001?

Let's look at this more closely.

First lets zoom in on that lasts response curve.



Yep, this is the same impressively smooth response just zoomed in to a 1db scale. Looks rough now huh?

Now I have shot it again with the 6.8uF cap in place and then I have bypassed it with a .1uF cap. Not a .01 or a .001uF cap, just a .1uF cap.



Yep there are two separate lines there.

Look close and you might see that at 2,273Hz the difference in the response is .04db.

That is 4% of 1db.

If you look real close you can see another variation around the 1,780Hz range that is equally as big.

This could simply be just differences unrelated to the cap change.

I found that there can be as much as .02 to .03db variance from one response to the other when using the same caps and just making back to back measurements. Most of the variances are typically in the lowest frequency ranges where slight changes in air pressure can make slight differences.

Hmmm, now I wonder who out there can hear a .04db change?  :lol:

De-winding a cap down to a specific value that is accurate down to .001uF is pretty tough too.

For one there is only one piece of equipment made that is accurate to that low and it cost $10,000.

Furthermore, variances that low are not stable. Changes in temperature, barometric pressure, even holding it in your hand will cause greater fluctuations than .001uF.

Our Clio will read to the third decimal place but is only accurate to the second. Readings in the third decimal place over are never stable and move constantly as the signal is passed through them.

Now on a different note, de-winding a pair of caps down to 6.8uF will make them sound the same, but allowing one cap to be a 6.8uF cap and matching it with a pair of caps with one being a 6.7uF bypassed with a .1uF will not sound the same at all even though both values are 6.8uF.

Now many properties that effect the sound are changed by the by-pass cap, but the sound will not be changed because of the change in value.

Difference are also very apparent between different types of caps too, but that's a different story.

So whether the caps used in a design are 6.20's, 6.15's, or 6.29's it will have little effect on the response.

What is important is that the caps used in both speakers are close to one another in value for the left and the right speakers.

If you have ever ordered a kit from us and ordered the Sonicap upgrade then you can see that each cap has been measured and the exact value to the second decimal is written by hand on each cap.

Caps are then selected to be matched in pairs that are often vary near to exact values.

If you have ever ordered our one of our A/V series kits then you will have noticed that the tweeters have been measured, tested, and each tweeter comes with its own response curve.

They are then matched into pairs with near identical responses.

If you have ever ordered fully assembled speakers from us then I am sure that you have noticed that each completed speaker has been measured and tested and comes with its own response measurements. Overlapped measurements of the pair are also provided so one can verify the closely matched pair of speakers.

Matched left and right speakers are very important for good imaging.

If your brand X speakers didn't come with it's own set of measurements and you would like to see just how accurate they are or how close they match one another, then you can send them here to GR Research for measuring.

It's a free service we have provided for years.  

Just cover the shipping both ways, and we'll provide you the results.

Happy listening.  :mrgreen:

azryan

Capacitor variances and the effect.
« Reply #1 on: 15 Jun 2004, 08:57 pm »
Great report!

Thanks for taking the time to measure and show this detail on this subject. I think it'll be helpful to a lot of people looking into the issue of cap performance, quality and assorted upgrades comnpanies offer.

It'll also be a great thread to link to rather than people like you and other speaker designers re-stating these kinds of same points over and over when this topic comes up.

I think some people have the perception that companies that do this measurably pointless trimming are more of perfectionist than those that don't and for you to cut right to the actual measurment effects showing why it doesn't matter will help clear up that confusion for many out there.


I was looking up cap costs and it looks like trim caps used to make up those measurably pointless diffs. cost near the same as the larger main cap values explaining more of how the costs can really ramp up fast in adding these caps as an option.

Also using caps that don't come in large values where you need to parallel several costly smaller ones to get the right values in some cases.

Would it be off topic for you to comment on the Sonicaps you use? I believe you feel they sound great and are an outstanding value and you've tried lots of other caps in the past....

Are the Sonicaps your flat out fav..... or just one of your favs and such a good value that you choose them over others?

Just curious more about all these assorted caps out there. Diff. ones being called the BEST, etc...

Danny Richie

Capacitor variances and the effect.
« Reply #2 on: 15 Jun 2004, 09:57 pm »
Quote
I think some people have the perception that companies that do this measurably pointless trimming are more of perfectionist than those that don't and for you to cut right to the actual measurment effects showing why it doesn't matter will help clear up that confusion for many out there.


Nothing wrong with being a perfectionist. I am that way myself. There is nothing wrong with matching component values for consistency and quality control either.

But I think it is good for people to know and be able to make a distinction between good quality control and unobtainable claims made strictly for marketing hype.

Quote
I was looking up cap costs and it looks like trim caps used to make up those measurably pointless diffs. cost near the same as the larger main cap values explaining more of how the costs can really ramp up fast in adding these caps as an option.


Those by-pass caps or trim caps as some call them do make a difference in the performance or sound, but it does not come from the change in value.

A cap is an energy storage device. A large cap stores lots of energy. That is why you see large value caps used in power supplies in amplifiers.

The larger a cap is the more stored energy it has, and the slower it releases that energy.

A small value cap stores little energy and it dissipates energy more quickly.

By-passing a larger value cap with a smaller one allows the stored energy of the larger cap to be dissipated, or shorted so to speak, through the smaller one.

Other things are taking place there too, but in short that is it.

Quote
Also using caps that don't come in large values where you need to parallel several costly smaller ones to get the right values in some cases.


The use of by-pass caps is not typically expensive and it is a way of getting more for your money.

For instance, using an Axon 100uF cap and by-passing it with a 10uF Sonicap, then with a .1uF Sonicap yields very good results.

A pure Sonicap value is not even made that large and if it were it would be really expensive. Plus, it will still lack the benefits of the use of the by-pass caps.

The use of the by-pass caps can save you money by giving you more bang for your buck.

Quote
Would it be off topic for you to comment on the Sonicaps you use? I believe you feel they sound great and are an outstanding value and you've tried lots of other caps in the past....


I have tried lots of different caps. In fact I have tried most of the really high end caps at one time or another.

In one way or another most have a particular character or sound about them that lends them to work well in some applications and not well in others.

The Sonicaps are the most neutral caps I have used. They sound more like nothing in the signal path than any other caps I have tried.

Quote
Are the Sonicaps your flat out fav..... or just one of your favs and such a good value that you choose them over others?


I would have to say they were my favorite all around caps. Plus they are not expensive. For these reasons I decided to carry the line.

Quote
Just curious more about all these assorted caps out there. Diff. ones being called the BEST, etc...


The best may be just around the corner.

I have been allowed to try some of the new Sonicap film and foil caps, called the Sonicap Platinum, and some of the variations to be used in the new "X" cap. Some of the new technology going into these caps will make these caps the best caps made to date.

Cool things are coming... :wink:

markC

Capacitor variances and the effect.
« Reply #3 on: 21 Jun 2004, 09:23 pm »
Oh Sure, just when I'm loving the sound of my Sonicap upgrade in my speaks, you have to go and tell me Better ones are on the way. :lol:  But seriously, one of the best tweaks I've done is replacing the what look like Dayton caps in my x-overs with sonicaps. Way more clearity and resolution. In fact it has brought out the high freq. nasties in my SS amp, so be carefull!

tg3

Re: Capacitor variances and the effect.
« Reply #4 on: 27 Jun 2004, 05:57 am »
Quote from: Danny

De-winding a cap down to a specific value that is accurate down to .001uF is pretty tough too.


How do you 'de-wind' a cap without destroying it?

David Ellis

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Good post Danny!
« Reply #5 on: 28 Jun 2004, 07:48 pm »
Your comments herein are excellent.  I agree.  While I take the time to measure & match capacitors, it isn't very necessary.  Folks who go beyond this to match capacitors within.... say...  .001uf must work in marketing departments only.  Any respectable engineer knows where tangible results can be found.  There is no reason for unwinding capacitors to such close tolerance.

There is, however, much to be said for the quality of consistency of film, the brew of metal used, grain pattern present in a capacitor.  I suppose if we were smarter then we'd know more about this area of significant capacitor impact.  I am content to know at least 1 guy who lives this stuff and purveys a very honest and very good product.

I am glad that Mark found good results with sonicaps in his speakers.  He also mentioned they are revealing some nasties in his amplifier.  The solution is simple IME.  Improvments need to happen in that amplifier too.  Amplifiers, preamps and CD players react wonderfully to capacitor improvements - much more than loudspeakers IMO.  Tweaks in source gear require more courage & slightly more knowledge, but the impact is much more profound IME.

Danny Richie

Caps
« Reply #6 on: 28 Jun 2004, 08:59 pm »
Quote
How do you 'de-wind' a cap without destroying it?


It is possible to peel the outer layer down just a little in order to make them into a smaller value.

Hi Dave,

Quote
Your comments herein are excellent. I agree. While I take the time to measure & match capacitors, it isn't very necessary.


Thanks Dave. I am the same way.

I measure every Sonicap that comes through here and do pick through them to find matched pairs as they are ordered.

I sent out some 20uF's to a guy recently. He ordered two pair. He got a 20.40 and a 20.42. The second pair was a 20.48 and a 20.51.

He couldn't have measured a difference in the final design if I would have sent him 19.50's or something, but I think it is important to give them a pair that matches.

Quote
There is, however, much to be said for the quality of consistency of film, the brew of metal used, grain pattern present in a capacitor. I suppose if we were smarter then we'd know more about this area of significant capacitor impact. I am content to know at least 1 guy who lives this stuff and purveys a very honest and very good product.


Yep, and you know, I think I know that guy.

Quote
Tweaks in source gear require more courage & slightly more knowledge, but the impact is much more profound IME.


Yea I found that too.

While the difference in the new Sonicap Platinum's were apparent in the speakers that I tried them in, it was subtle.

But the difference that the new Sonicap Platinum's made in some of Dodd Audio tube amps made Gary Dodd get real excited.  :dance:

I think I know what caps my new Amps and Pre-amp will have in them.  :thumb:

BrunoB

Capacitor variances and the effect.
« Reply #7 on: 28 Jun 2004, 10:00 pm »
Quote from: Danny
The use of by-pass caps is not typically expensive and it is a way of getting more for your money.

For instance, using an Axon 100uF cap and by-passing it with a 10uF Sonicap, then with a .1uF Sonicap yields very good results.


Is by-passing always a good thing?
I don't claim any expertise in this field, but when I wanted to upgrade the stock caps from my speakers to Sonicaps- I needed 48.11 uF - the manufacturer advised me to buy a set of 4 caps of 12 uF. He matched the quad sets to 48.11 exactly for no added charge.  According to him, this approach is better than using a non homogenous set of caps (e.g. 12 + 12 +12 +12 + .1 ) because "a 0.1uF has no capacity and would greatly skew the ESR phase/freq. relationship". I don't really understand what that means but I thought that  this info might be useful in this thread.

Bruno

David Ellis

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Bypassing
« Reply #8 on: 28 Jun 2004, 10:49 pm »
Quote
According to him, this approach is better than using a non homogenous set of caps (e.g. 12 + 12 +12 +12 + .1 ) because "a 0.1uF has no capacity and would greatly skew the ESR phase/freq. relationship".


I am sure Danny will have further thoughts on this matter, but I'll express my thoughts too.

First, the only region where the phase will shift with the smaller bypass capacitor is in the region where the smaller capacitor cannot support and will not completely pass the frequency.  There will be AC resistance and hence phase shift across the smaller capacitor.  There is at least 1 capacitor manufacturer who conveys this as significant and therefore bypass capacitors should not be used.  Herein I disagree.

This is simply because througout the rest of the operating range there are significant advantages when using a bypass capacitor - even one of equal quality.  I believe this is especially true in right directly in the signal path.  There will be less ESR and improved Time Domain behavior.  

Time Domain is how fast a capacitor of a given size will discharge in a given impedance circuit.  Bigger capacitors in higher impedance circuits take longer to discharge.  The capacitor might not fully discharge before the next impulse arrives.  Exactly what happens with those confused electrons... I don't know.  I am certain the signal is smeared.  I am not sure how it is smeared and I cannot explain this on the electron level.

Summary:  I believe bypassing has a theoretical downside, but the upside is far more significant - especially with regard to Time Domain issues.

I experimented with bypassing in a few different places.  In the signal path in my CD player and amplfier, bypassing was very postive.  In the power supply of my amplifier bypassing was very positive.  In the signal path behind my tweeter the impact was not audible.  I believe the issue of primary importance for greatest impact is circuit impedance.  The circuit impedance behind my tweeter was significantly lower than in my CD player and amplifier.

Further, my CD player (Anthem CD-1) had significant bypassing from the factory.  I believe the folks at Sonic Frontiers did this one right.  The engineers won this battle.  Conversely, if the accountants won the battle, more profit would result... Sonic Frontiers might still be in business.

I am sure Danny will have more to add.  I only "scratched the surface" of the bypassing issue.

Danny Richie

Capacitor variances and the effect.
« Reply #9 on: 1 Jul 2004, 05:13 pm »
Dave may have only scratched the surface but covered some good ground. I like what you shared, Dave.

I have done extensive listening tests comparing by-pass caps.

There are clearly audible advantages, and to me they greatly out way the theoretical downside.

Here is my recommendation for those that have not tried cap by-passing.

Small value caps, even in very high end caps, are not very expensive.

Give them a try and listen for yourself. You may like what you hear.

David Ellis

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Hey Danny
« Reply #10 on: 1 Jul 2004, 05:46 pm »
I did the simple math for Time Domain and figured a .5uf would work good for bypass behind my 8ohm (nominal) tweeter.  I didn't hear any change.  What value(s) did you try?

Danny Richie

Capacitor variances and the effect.
« Reply #11 on: 1 Jul 2004, 06:06 pm »
I usually use a .1 uF for bypassing in a tweeter circuit.

Years ago I can remember when Jeff (former GR business partner) and I performed extensive A/B listing test using three different caps as by-pass caps.

All three were .1uF values and all made by Infinicap.

The guts off each of them were the same.

One was wrapped in what was little more than tissue paper. This was the "Hot Rod" version.

One was wrapped in a poly coating, but still had exposed ends. This one was called "ruggedized".

The third one was wrapped in a poly coating and the ends were sealed with a poly coating also (just like any other poly cap you see now). This one was called "thoroughly ruggedized".

We could both hear a difference between each of these caps.

The hot rod version did have the best sound, but we were really leery of its durability.

For these tests we were using a Focal Tc120Tdx2 tweeter, and the main cap was an Axon poly cap.

Jeff and I tried some .33's and some .01's also before deciding on the .1 values that we decided to use.

Also note, that the difference in by-passing an Axon cap with a .1uF Sonicap will be a greater than the difference in by-passing a Sonicap with another smaller Sonicap.

David Ellis

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Thanks Danny
« Reply #12 on: 1 Jul 2004, 07:30 pm »
I'll try a .1 the next time.

I was indeed bypassing a Sonicap with another Sonicap.  This was intentional.

Dave