DSD DACs

k6davis · « **Reply #420 on:** 29 Oct 2013, 12:47 pm »

Quote from: ted_b on 24 Oct 2013, 01:56 pm

+1. Well put!

Ted_B, thanks for your kind words earlier.

My understanding from what I've read at Part Time Audiophile is that you're currently evaluating the LampizatOr DSD DAC for review.

Based on the very enthusiastic reports of its sound quality, I'm strongly considering purchasing this unit. There are a few questions I'd like you pose to you as you're examining the DAC. My questions are fairly detailed and I certainly don't mean to cause you any inconvenience if they turn out to be difficult to answer.

First, I've read that there have been some operational glitches. For example, static between songs or during quiet passages. I've also read that there have been some driver or computer connectivity issues. I expect that Lucasz will resolve these issues if they (still) exist. What I'd like to know is, if you're experiencing these (or any other) operational problems and, importantly, whether the unit you're testing is a production model or a prototype.

In addition, the way I intend to use the DAC is with JRiver (Windows) upsampling all of my content to DSD128. What I'd like to know is if the LampizatOr can accept such input from JRiver, or would some kind of intermediary software (like JPlay) be necessary. In other words, does the LampizatOr require native DSD128 via ASIO or DSD128 over PCM, or can it accept both? I recall you saying that you run a lower powered, high end, low noise CAPS server, in which case you may not be able to test that functionality.

Finally, I've narrowed my candidates down to the LampizatOr DSD and the Auralic Vega. By all accounts, the Vega is an outstanding DAC, but the few initial reports on the LampizatOr DSD DAC suggest that sonically, it's in the league of the extremely high end, cost-no-object DAC's. I don't know which units you'll be able to compare the LampizatOr DSD to, but a comparison to the Vega would be greatly appreciated. By me, at least. LOL

Thanks in advance for any insight you can provide and I look forward to your review.

ted_b · « **Reply #421 on:** 29 Oct 2013, 01:20 pm »

K6Davis,
My unit (the one Scot sent me) is an early prototype, and we are learning it became defective, likely in repeated shipping, so Lukasz is sending me another one asap. My unit began showing issues with Scot (he thought it was a bad tube but finding it's likely loose connections that got even worse with me). These things happen with prototypes and demo/travel units. No real big deal...but I can't speak to the sonics yet. What I heard, in between the distortion issues, is VERY promising. Yes, the unit thumps when switching sample rate (a physical toggle switch) from DSD to DSD128, but that is expected in this unit and is part of the early proto design he explains on his website. Lukasz already stated that production units will auto-sense and likely auto-mute. And no, I noticed no intertrack noise or glitches, just the addtl thumps and distortion that we've determined are defective parts.

What I can answer is this: DoP works fine with the Lampi DSD both via Windows and via OSX. In Windows I used Jplay (via JRiver) and in OSX I played via A+ and via JRiver. The Amanero Windows driver shows up as Kernel Streaming with JPlay (as designed). I am not yet sure if it also has an ASIO component as I didn't yet go direct to JRIver in my WS 2012 dual pc setup.

Also, upsampled DSD128 works fine, but as I noted a couple days ago I am not using that function realtime, but instead I had JRiver convert some favorite PCM to DSD128 offline. If your server has enough horsepower, go for on-the-fly, but be aware the PCM-to-DSD128 process is VERY cpu intensive. In a single pc setup (where JRiver and the dac driver are on the same machine) I'm not sure what kind of sonics you'd get with a cpu working so hard.

Stay tuned.

k6davis · « **Reply #422 on:** 29 Oct 2013, 01:51 pm »

Wow Ted_B,

I really appreciate your quick and very informative reply! It's hard to overstate how valuable it is to have people such as yourself make themselves available. I have zero access to the unit and these are not trivial purchasing decisions.

Anyway, I'm no longer concerned about the issues I raised and I'm now even more excited to read your review. I can stop hitting F5 (on http://computeraudiophile.com, right?) since you are waiting for a replacement unit.

Thanks again.

wisnon · « **Reply #423 on:** 29 Oct 2013, 03:48 pm »

Hi K6d,

I also have a DSD only Lampi and have none of the issues you noted in my system. I have played upsampled PCM files (to DSD128) and they sound superb. No issues whatsoever. DSD128 is IT! PC-Who???

I use Mac only and A+ so far. Just got JRiver, but dont have the time to "learn" it yet.

I have a (dynamics junkie) pal in Boston that had a Gen 3 Level 4 lampi dac and later, he switched from Tubes/Horn to Emerald Physics (open baffle/controlled directivity/DSP controlled) system with Class D power amps and W4S SE preamp. He then demoed the Vega and preferred it in that system and bought it, still keeping the old Lampi which he was emotionally attached to. i had warned him the Gen 4 was a step or 2 up, but not until he heard a Gen 4 L5 in his system (fully balanced) that he realized the improvement possible. He subsequently sent his OLd lampi back to Poland to be re-jigged to Gen 4/balanced/Duelunds (replacing audio note Caps). You see, the E-Physics setup is run fully BALANCED and the old Lampi was SE...thus he was getting only half the dynamics. Further the new Gen 4 boards sound better and with the Duelunds its game, set and match!

He is excitely waiting on the 2nd coming of the Lampi...which should be about Friday if he is lucky.

I also have a UK buddy who demoed the Vega and chose to go L5 Lampi with DSd and he has autosensing, but not auto-mute and he is still waiting to switch to duelunds.

The Vega is a great sounding Dac from what I heard and is cheaper than your typical Lampi, so that is a consideration. Individual taste and system synergy count for something too.

Boston update:
B. just left after hearing J's Level 5 (PCM only) and now knows that he needs an upgrade too. According to Lukasz, mine will sound appreciably better than J's. Since J's wipes the floor with the Vega, I can't even begin to surmise how phenomenal it will be!

Further update;
I finally got a chance to hear the new Gen 4, Level 5 Lampy at J's yesterday afternoon. Yikes! The new unit simply immerses you in beautiful music (perfect tone, fantastic detail, and the most realistic soundstage I have ever heard). I'm contacting Lukasz today to start the upgrade process for my unit. The difference between my superb-sounding unit and the G4L5 is not subtle and the upgrade is absolutely worth the additional effort and expense. You should hear Misa Criolla on a G4L5. Just make sure you have some tissues handy. Regards, B.

barrows · « **Reply #424 on:** 29 Oct 2013, 04:26 pm »

I suspect that in this price region (<$10K) you would also be wise to demo the Luxman... Throw some Stillpoints under there as well for the price of the Lampizator.
Also Bricasti...

wisnon · « **Reply #425 on:** 29 Oct 2013, 06:16 pm »

The Lampi DSD only Dac is like $3K. Futhermore, its PURE DSD with no PCM conversion, no DSP, just high quality flirtation and a delicately simple and pure circuit. Others can sound pretty good, very good even, but you need to hear the TRUE DSD sound to get it.

The L5 with DSD will be like <$8k.

The fellow should demo all he can, if he can, but you clearly never heard a current Lampi. To me its $20K+ sound...but that is only my opinion...

k6davis · « **Reply #426 on:** 29 Oct 2013, 06:33 pm »

[quote authorconfiguration=wisnon link=topic=110794.msg1271948#msg1271948 date=1383070563]
The Lampi DSD only Dac is like $3K.

The Lour5 with DSD will be like <$8k.

The fellow should demo all he can, if he can, but you clearly never heard a current Lampi. To me its $20K+ sound...but that is only my opinion...
[/quote]

I believe the Lampi DSD is nearly $3.5k USD but that's without options. If I get one, which is looking likely, I'll add some upgrades to the base configuration.

Speaking of configuration, wisnon, do you know the best way to discuss ordering and terms with LampizatOr? Is there an email address or a particular person I should contact?

Berto · « **Reply #427 on:** 29 Oct 2013, 07:21 pm »

Hi Ted,

I heard about the unfortunate circumstances.

I'm planning on correcting this matter for you ASAP. I lent out the DSD Dac that Lukasz left me and Fred to demo. I will be meeting that gentleman early tomorrow morning to get the DAC back. I will ship it to you and follow-up with tracking!

Rob

PhilipAC · « **Reply #428 on:** 30 Oct 2013, 12:26 pm »

Hi Norman (and everyone else!)

I am Norman's "UK buddy" who has the L5 DSD Lampi, awaiting Duelunds.

I love it- fabulous DAC. It is so good on DSD that I have converted the 20% of my files that are PCM to DSD using JRMC (on my wife's PC because I don't believe conversion to DSD- other than on-the-fly- is available on JR for Mac yet). In general, I agree with Ted's mantra of listening to music in its native format, but I think the DSD Lampi is worth an exception to this policy.

The only noises I get are a couple of thumps when it starts a new play list or changes between PCM, DSD64 and DSD128, and I have quickly learned to mute for a couple of seconds on these occasions. But if you are playing a play list, or a whole piece of classical music, there are no noises except at the very beginning. NB Norman- is auto-muting available now- I thought not yet?

Cheers

Philip

wisnon · « **Reply #429 on:** 30 Oct 2013, 03:32 pm »

No auto-mute yet. Hopefully before year end...

Lots of us waiting on that.

Big Red Machine · « **Reply #430 on:** 30 Oct 2013, 04:40 pm »

The auto-mute would be very nice. Like Philip, I get thump on start of a session and a thump when I "stop" a session. I've eliminated the thump between different resolutions so listening sessions are much more enjoyable from that aspect. I'm anxious to get the DSD capability into my unit. Damn thing is pressing my component competencies everywhere else but I think mostpieces are up to the task.

PhilipAC · « **Reply #431 on:** 30 Oct 2013, 06:58 pm »

Hi BRM

How did you eliminate thumps between changes of mode please?

Cheers

Philip

wisnon · « **Reply #432 on:** 30 Oct 2013, 07:43 pm »

BRM, do you get thumps with your PCM Dac?

I don't know about that as my Lampi PCM Dac only has coax and Aes/EBU inputs, no USB. Never had a thump in PCM.

The DSD Dac is ONLY via usb and hence there is a thump potential, but by muting, I don't have an issue, just like Phillip says...

barrows · « **Reply #433 on:** 30 Oct 2013, 08:38 pm »

wisnon, I applaud your enthusiasm but this statement is inaccurate:

"Othere cant sound pretty good, very good even, but you need to hear the TRUE DSD sound to get it."

DSD was developed as a noise shaped format from the start, "TRUE DSD" would be noise shaped, as that is how the format works. I am not suggesting that filtering only is a bad way to decode DSD, just that calling such an approach "TRUE DSD" (your caps), is misleading. As if you are saying that folks like Andreas and Ed (the guys who actually helped develop the format in the first place) are doing it wrong.
I actually have a prototype DAC here which decodes DSD in a related fashion, no DS modulator and no noise shaping, only "filtering", unfortunately this one does not appear to have enough filtering, as there are noise artifacts. I do note that Lukas experienced similar problems with the development of his approach, until he figured out his three tiers of filters.

The other DACs which I mention decode both PCM and DSD, as such they should be compared in price to Lampizator DACs with both. When one does so, the prices are in the same ballpark.
Very surprised that Lukasz uses the Amanero? Is that really true? That is indeed a pity if true...
I doubt anyone is getting a Lampizator DSD for $3.5K with Duelund Cast coupling caps onboard... if so, that is a fantastic deal, even without PCM decoding.

ted_b · « **Reply #434 on:** 30 Oct 2013, 08:55 pm »

Barrows,
Yes, its an Amanero board. Tell me your thoughts on it. I respect your comments, of course.

barrows · « **Reply #435 on:** 30 Oct 2013, 09:40 pm »

Ted: I really do not feel like I should comment further here. There is plenty of information on the Amenero USB interface at diyaudio.com for those who would like to learn more.
Personally, I feel the USB interface is a critical part of any DAC where the primary playback is going to be from a computer/server source, and there are big differences in the performance of different USB interfaces.
It sure would be nice if all Async USB interfaces were equal, but that is surely not the case. A USB interface can be a stumbling block for many manufacturers, especially smaller ones, who do not have the resources (computer engineers comfortable with high speed data design and programming) to develop and perfect their own interface. Even the popular XMOS chip requires quite a bit of specialized skills to be implemented well.

wisnon · « **Reply #436 on:** 30 Oct 2013, 09:49 pm »

Quote from: barrows on 30 Oct 2013, 08:38 pm

wisnon, I applaud your enthusiasm but this statement is inaccurate:

"Othere cant sound pretty good, very good even, but you need to hear the TRUE DSD sound to get it."

DSD was developed as a noise shaped format from the start, "TRUE DSD" would be noise shaped, as that is how the format works. I am not suggesting that filtering only is a bad way to decode DSD, just that calling such an approach "TRUE DSD" (your caps), is misleading. As if you are saying that folks like Andreas and Ed (the guys who actually helped develop the format in the first place) are doing it wrong.
I actually have a prototype DAC here which decodes DSD in a related fashion, no DS modulator and no noise shaping, only "filtering", unfortunately this one does not appear to have enough filtering, as there are noise artifacts. I do note that Lukas experienced similar problems with the development of his approach, until he figured out his three tiers of filters.

The other DACs which I mention decode both PCM and DSD, as such they should be compared in price to Lampizator DACs with both. When one does so, the prices are in the same ballpark.
Very surprised that Lukasz uses the Amanero? Is that really true? That is indeed a pity if true...
I doubt anyone is getting a Lampizator DSD for $3.5K with Duelund Cast coupling caps onboard... if so, that is a fantastic deal, even without PCM decoding.

Barrows, I didn't say the Lampi was the only True DSD. EMM and PBD are too, even if the do some DSP stuff. My jab was against the ones who convert to PCM or 8-bit SDM quasi PCM. Luxman and Bricasti are not operating totally in DSD domain.

I can't be totally certain about prices, but if price is the only issue, then why not recommend X-Sabre, Teac or the Tascam that records in DSD.
Finally, does it matter what board is used if the end result is great SQ?

BTW, I appreciate your mellow tone. Cheers

Big Red Machine · « **Reply #437 on:** 30 Oct 2013, 10:00 pm »

Quote from: wisnon on 30 Oct 2013, 07:43 pm

BRM, do you get thumps with your PCM Dac?

I don't know about that as my Lampi PCM Dac only has coax and Aes/EBU inputs, no USB. Never had a thump in PCM.

The DSD Dac is ONLY via usb and hence there is a thump potential, but by muting, I don't have an issue, just like Phillip says...

I posted here some time ago about my popping noise issue. Trung helped me resolve it. Only during USB use, not using SPDIF (no issues) and when changing resolutions. I made many changes and those are written down 2 floors below. Primarily I recall that since the Amenaro is capable of 192, I set all my audio outputs to upsample or downsample to 192k, set deliberate pauses inbetween tracks, did not use 'play from memory', and a few others. I believe the 192k was the key trick. I still get a large crack/pop when I start a session and if I hit stop at the end when I am ready to walk away. If I load more tracks or change from playlist to playlist I do not get the loud cracks.

I also posted at JRiver and folks there mentioned a mute issue is likely and that is being discussed here as well so unfortunately this needs to be dealt with. Lukasz said no one had this problem before but it appears others are so I hope we can contribute to a solution. The music inbetween the pops was and is wonderful so....

barrows · « **Reply #438 on:** 31 Oct 2013, 12:01 am »

Wisnon: OK, I mis-understood some of what you were saying. I thought you were inferring that the filter only, no delta sigma modulator approach was the only "TRUE DSD", sorry for that.
Yes, the other two DACs mentioned use 6-8 bits to convert to analog, but they do not truncate the DSD sample rate. This is a matter of terminology more than anything. I would not call this approach converting to PCM, but, if they converted a 2.8 MHz DSD data stream to 352.8 kHz then I would consider that converting to PCM. Actually, by converting to a multi bit format these DACs perform better than any single bit converter ever has from a technical perspective. Whether or not this sounds better is up to the listener to decide during an audition.
There are other choices if single bit conversion is one's religion. The Sonore/exD DSD DAC converts DSD using a single bit DAC, has a better USB interface than the Amanero, and costs under $2K.

ted_b · « **Reply #439 on:** 31 Oct 2013, 12:03 am »

? eXD uses Amanero, no?