Comparing Cherry Amps to ncore

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Rclark

Re: Comparing Cherry Amps to ncore
« Reply #40 on: 1 Jun 2012, 12:20 am »
 well yeah, there's Tyson, but he didn't dislike them either. He didn't rail on about the "challenges faced by classd" as a whole. FWIW Tyson has super nice amps as well. If there was even a hint of mid-fi, he would have gone off on it.

 Even Ted, with his reservations about needing more power, suggested that bridging could perhaps make them ideal for his situation. It wasn't that he didn't like them, read the review.'

 So far there have been minor quibbles here and there, no dislike.

JohnR

Re: Comparing Cherry Amps to ncore
« Reply #41 on: 1 Jun 2012, 12:31 am »
Hey guys, Tommy asked specifically about comparisons of the Cherry amps to the NCore. Cheerleading the NCore without addressing his question is just plain rude.

sts9fan

Re: Comparing Cherry Amps to ncore
« Reply #42 on: 1 Jun 2012, 12:32 am »
It's unfair to say "pass labs has been beaten". Someone said they had heard a pass amp as one of 20+ amps in their systems. So is that all Pass Amps?
Can you give me a break down of all reviews of Ncore from the webs?
Have you heard them yet?

jtwrace

Re: Comparing Cherry Amps to ncore
« Reply #43 on: 1 Jun 2012, 12:56 am »
We are in the midst of an overhaul for our web site, but there are current specs for Cherry amps there:
www.DigitalAmp.com
(look at the product pages)

We also have a spec sheet for the original Cherry amplifier:
http://www.digitalamp.com/cherry%20measurements%20v6.pdf

Thanks for your post.
Thanks.  I look forward to the new measurements on the AP tester.   :thumb:


BTW, comparing amps is a subjective exercise, not an objective one.
Not really.  You can listen with supplied measurement data. 

kevinh

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Re: Comparing Cherry Amps to ncore
« Reply #44 on: 1 Jun 2012, 02:21 am »
Looking at the Digital AMps site the Cherry can make a good $$$$/value proposition especially comparing a DIY module to a finished commercial produc.

I also like the designer seeking out the 'best' competition to compare his products to.

I will look forward to comparisons when they happen.

Freo-1

Re: Comparing Cherry Amps to ncore
« Reply #45 on: 1 Jun 2012, 07:52 pm »

Not really.  You can listen with supplied measurement data.

Respectfully disagree (slightly).  Measurements tell most of the basics, but they currently fail to adequately capture:

• How (complex) music signals behave in the time domain aspect
• Switching artifacts and how they relate in the time domain aspect
• The interaction with an actual speaker load, which also affects what one actually hears with a given amp.

cab

Re: Comparing Cherry Amps to ncore
« Reply #46 on: 1 Jun 2012, 10:15 pm »

• The interaction with an actual speaker load, which also affects what one actually hears with a given amp.

Most manufacturers will provide a frequency response vs load plot. Ncore is essentially flat. I haven't seen the plot for the Cherry amp series....

Sonny

Re: Comparing Cherry Amps to ncore
« Reply #47 on: 1 Jun 2012, 10:21 pm »
removed to error...
apologies

fredgarvin

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Re: Comparing Cherry Amps to ncore
« Reply #48 on: 1 Jun 2012, 10:53 pm »
Funny that RH from Asolute Sound just had an editorial report on measurements and how objective vs subjective listening.... take a look:
http://www.avguide.com/forums/blind-listening-tests-are-flawed-editorial

I thought the rebuttal was more accurate in describing the reality:

First of all, you are correct, "indistinguishable" does, indeed, mean that NO audible difference exists between 16-bit, 44.1 KHz digital and the High Resolution formats. I have been doing a lot of recording lately and I have had ample opportunity to test 16-bit, 44.1KHz digital quantization against both 24-bit, 96KHz and 32-bit (fp), 192 Khz quantization. Playback directly from the computer (through the same DAC/ADC with which the recording was made) yielded no audible difference to a listening panel of 5 audiophiles. Also, no audible difference was detected between the high-resolution recording and the SAME recording output as 16-bit, 44.1KHz Red Book and burned to CD. The CD was also played back through the same DAC/ADC as through which the recording was made in order to keep variables low.

Secondly, you are wrong to characterize those who value double-blind or ABX testing as being mostly supported by "...Partisan hacks, bent on discrediting audiophiles. " I too was skeptical of the so-called "double-blind" test until I started to participate in some of them. My first encounter was with a group of audiophiles using a home-made ABX setup to audition two very high-end power amplifiers. It was bad enough when the tests revealed that no one could reliably tell when the controller (sitting in another room and switching or not switching amps every 30 seconds by the clock while a number of different types of music were played) switched or didn't switch or to which amplifier she had switched (she didn't know which was which either. Sometimes she would switch at the appointed time, sometimes not. We listeners never knew). The end result was that statistically, the 6 listeners got it right about 50% (give or take a few percentage points) of the time. In other words, blind chance. When the same experiment was repeated using one of the expensive amps and a much cheaper amp of similar power and the same results were obtained it did seem that all modern amps sound the same. This brings me to point three.

Scientists use ABX and double-blind testing for things other than audio (you mentioned pharmaceuticals) for a good reason. If such tests reveal no differences, its because there are no differences. Whether the device under test is a pair of amplifiers, a set of cables, or a 16-bit, 44.1 KHz digital recording vs. a 24-bit, 192 KHz digital recording of the same performance or a new "wonder drug". If the test is properly set-up and the results are that there is no NOTICEABLE difference between the two units in question (or the test subject and the control), then it stands to reason a difference which makes no difference is no difference at all. But something here strikes me as even more important. If the differences that we are talking about here are so subtle that a direct A-B comparison does not illuminate them, does this also not say that we are engaged in counting angels on the head of a pin (I leave it to you to decide whether these are "recording angels"javascript:emoticon(':wink:'))

I don't pretend to be able to explain your European radio CODEC story, but obviously something was wrong if no one in a listening test heard a 1.5 KHz noise in the program material. Perhaps the panels weren't given more than a few seconds to hear each sample, I don't know, but it would seem to me that anyone would be able to hear a non-correlated 1.5 KHz tone in a musical performance if given ample time (no more than a few seconds) to focus in on it.

George Graves

golfugh

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Re: Comparing Cherry Amps to ncore
« Reply #49 on: 1 Jun 2012, 11:00 pm »
How did Tommy's request for comparisons of his amps to the Ncores turn into a diatribe on blind listening tests, etc.?

This is his circle BTW

Sonny

Re: Comparing Cherry Amps to ncore
« Reply #50 on: 1 Jun 2012, 11:01 pm »
How did Tommy's request for comparisons of his amps to the Ncores turn into a diatribe on blind listening tests, etc.?

Sorry, that was my mistake, I posted the wrong link...I will remove...
 :duh:

jtwrace

Re: Comparing Cherry Amps to ncore
« Reply #51 on: 2 Jun 2012, 12:40 am »

Respectfully disagree (slightly).  Measurements tell most of the basics, but they currently fail to adequately capture:

• How (complex) music signals behave in the time domain aspect
• Switching artifacts and how they relate in the time domain aspect
• The interaction with an actual speaker load, which also affects what one actually hears with a given amp.

This is quite interesting http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=58526.msg520319#msg520319


Rclark

Re: Comparing Cherry Amps to ncore
« Reply #52 on: 2 Jun 2012, 07:09 am »
That whole DIY ncore thread is just loaded with similar Putzey insights. It's one of the reasons I'm charging headlong into this new amp. He is just one of the smartest and most well spoken developers I've ever seen.

Barry_NJ

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Re: Comparing Cherry Amps to ncore
« Reply #53 on: 25 Jun 2012, 04:38 pm »
Here's one from a Cherry owner...

I spent a few days with the Ncore's prior to dropping them off for Rich's get together. The basics of my system includes Danley SH50 horns, DAC Stereo Cherry amp, DEQX, Wyred 4 Sound passive Pre-amp.  My rig is a 2 channel/home theater combo system and I mostly use an Oppo BDP-95 SE for all digital media to keep things simple.  If pressed I say I'd prefer tubes over SS but can't deal with all that goes into owning a truly worthwhile pair of tubes that ticks all the boxes. For several years I've been looking for that just right SS amp.  I've tried a few of the ICE Power, Class D variants and enjoyed them all to varying degrees.  I simply wish to find a competent, low maintenance, high power amp.  So the Ncores are the latest to peak my interest based upon the Hypex reputation and the great word of mouth here.  I echo much of what's been said already, nothing really new to report.  I liked the Ncores even handedness from top to bottom.  Very tight focused and articulate bass, transparent mid-range and clean non-exaggerated highs. A very reassuring amp to say the least.  Great at all volumes and kept its composure when pushed hard.  Kept pretty much the same character at whispering levels as at room filling levels.  A very articulate amp all around, a nicely refined and focused sound stage with good instrument placement and separation.  Again, nothing new here so I would say that the essence of the amp is pretty well documented and I agree with much of it.

On my high efficiency horns (100dB) I can say the Ncores were quiet and well composed and were a good match with no harshness or digital nastiness that was offensive to my ears but then again I'm not as sensitive to those things as others may be or maybe I'm just more forgiving.  Very clean, crisp, refined and neutral sound. A pretty dynamic combo, excellent control, transient response and overall speed making for a controlled yet exciting presentation.  If you like Class D then there's isn't much not to like.  Exciting to think about bridging these for 1200 watts or so on my speakers, wow that would be nice in many ways.

As far as how the Ncores compare to my resident Cherry Amp, I did not do a lot of A-B evaluation, that's not my thing so much these days.  I did it once or twice but mostly I dropped the Ncores in and just listened for a few days.  It was one reason why I took my Cherry Amp to Richidoo's audio meet so more A-B listening could be done.  Not as much time as I would have liked was slotted for that comparison but it seems a general opinion was gathered.  Personally, I am very happy with the Cherry amp and it fits my system and tastes well.  In my system I found the Cherry to be warmer, more robust through the bass and midrange, a bit more dynamic and vibrant sounding.  The Ncores sounded cooler, a touch more refined and a bit more precise (monoblocks vs stereo?).  The Cherry seemed to have a bit larger sound stage left to right to front, the Ncore a more defined sound stage and maybe a touch more depth.  The Cherry may project into the room more and sound a little more forceful.  Rich commented the Cherry sounded like a good clean Push Pull tube amp with massive balls and I can agree with that analogy in the context of Class D.  I find the Cherry to be the best compromise I've heard between tubes and SS in my systems.  My speakers have dual 12 inch bass drivers per side and both amps just pound in the low registers, the Ncores a bit leaner and cleaner and I pushed them ear hurtin' hard and they just kept their composure and played the music louder as it should be.  The Cherry pounds a little harder and when pushed just keeps on pounding harder as if plenty of reserve is on tap. I could not get the Ncores to duplicate that to the same degree but then again in the different room and set up such a thing could be too much. The Ncores and Cherry seemed to sound pretty similar all in all and it may be a system synergy thing as to which one might fit best for people.  If I did not own a Cherry amp, I would likely buy a Ncore, possibly bridge it and ride off into the sunset.  It did pretty much everything I'd need for sound and practicality and mated well with my system.

Thanks Jason for squeezing me on tour and extending yourself in this way to allow us to spend some personal time with some really fine amps and for many could be the last amp they need to buy.


And one from another site, by someone who owns neither...
Quote from: richidoo
Chris, I liked the NCore for precision, accuracy, merciless grip at all freqs. It doesn't have as violent transients as Spectron or Levinson 53, but still very impressive overall from the audiophile's "absolute sound" perspective. It seemed more musical than those other 2 technical marvels, while also simpler, smaller, lighter cheaper. It did not suffer Rick's older version DEQX pre/processor well, exaggerating the edginess of that pre. Sol thinks it sounded like OP2134 opamps characteristic buzz, he is pretty accurate guessing chips and transistor part numbers by ear.  With my Buffalo DAC there was no edge with NCore, but a few people still felt a trace of class D sizzle form NCore, even with the Buffalo. Eric's DAC amp (original stereo Cherry) reminded me of a clean PP tube amp with massive balls. The adjective most frequently heard among the guys was fat or phat depending on who said it. Fat from those who prefer accuracy and did not like the richening the Cherry added. I thought it was phat because it added flesh to the tone, rounded the edges a little compared to NCore, and seemed to tip bass response up a couple dB. It had a darker, richer sound that I liked better than NCore on the Ewave and especially on the DTQWT, while the Ncore sounded better to me on the Polks (we didn't play that combo at the meet.)  It is weird that the NCore sounded better to me on the Polks than the Cherry, because the general agreement was that the Polks sounded top heavy on all of the other amps. But the NCore made the bass sound so great on the Polks maybe that allowed me to focus less on the highs.

We only listened to Richard's NAD M2, only on the DTQWT, and only after most people had split, and the match was not great. The Cherry blew away the NCore and M2 on the easy load, high efficiency DTQWT speakers, perfect match. I'm not sure we analyzed that combo, but I was playing it at the very beginning when people were first arriving, and even my wife commented how great it sounded. She said what speakers are these? The ones I built last summer... Hmmm. Uh oh! Maybe I just needed a different amp instead of 2 more DIY speakers.  :duh   :rofl:

But Sol's newest version i30, with <1/10 power than Cherry, was pretty much in the same class as Cherry on those speakers. It was a very nice match. Unfortunately we discovered that too late with only me Sol and Giyan still around to hear it. Magic hour came too late! We'll remember it for next time.

There was so much that we didn't get to do, so it will be fun to reassemble these amps again in the near future for a rematch, with better (passive xo) speakers, more flexible schedules and less speaker swapping. Fortunately these amps all live in NC and everyone wants to do it again sometime. Shane and I are about to dive into SEOS builds this summer hopefully one of those will prove a worthy victim of class D abuse. Shane has a true monster speaker planned.

Gene was tired toward the end, but some rare premium Lee Morgan (Take Twelve album) stoked his coals for a few minutes, and Bill hung in there to the bitter end. We all enjoyed their visit, and hope their threats to come again come true. 

I promised some CD copies but the CD-R blanks were not where they are supposed to be, so I will mail those out.

Gene, I didn't even know there was Hampton Inn in Holly Springs, glad you found it on your own. Pics coming...

OzarkTom

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Re: Comparing Cherry Amps to ncore
« Reply #54 on: 25 Jun 2012, 11:57 pm »
That makes real me excited about the new Cherry amp with a possible battery supply. :D

Freo-1

Re: Comparing Cherry Amps to ncore
« Reply #55 on: 26 Jun 2012, 01:19 am »
This is quite interesting http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=58526.msg520319#msg520319

 
Thanks.  (Some interesting observations)  Having said that, still does not fully address how a given amp will actually work with complex music signals into an actual speaker load (especially in the time domain aspect, which is where many amps fall short).  That is where Class A amps have traditionally held sway in the market.
 
I will one day get my hands on an Ncore amp pair (and perhaps a Cherry as well) so I can hear them for myself.  A lot of folks here obviously hold them in very high regard, so they are doing something very right. 
 
For the time being, the 1000 watt Class D in my Servo subwoofer is working just fine! 

Barry_NJ

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Re: Comparing Cherry Amps to ncore
« Reply #56 on: 26 Jun 2012, 07:39 pm »
And another comment/er from that session...

Yeah nice review, good to meet you over at Rich's also! On the limited back to back comparison I was liking the cherry also. It had a fatter tone to it compared to the ncore, but I like it! Sounded more realistic on the set up we were using at that time.

Charles Xavier

Re: Comparing Cherry Amps to ncore
« Reply #57 on: 26 Jun 2012, 08:34 pm »
And another comment/er from that session...



You on the payroll ?

fredgarvin

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Re: Comparing Cherry Amps to ncore
« Reply #58 on: 26 Jun 2012, 08:56 pm »
And another comment/er from that session...

Thanks for bringing in some reviews and opinions, as the thread asked for.  :D

Cheeseboy

Re: Comparing Cherry Amps to ncore
« Reply #59 on: 26 Jun 2012, 09:25 pm »
I'm excited about what I'm reading about the ncore amps.  I haven't read every single post to date.  It's a hot topic!  What I did read make me interested in moving over to mono blocks.  It also confirms that I did make a great purchase from DAC.  "a good clean push/pull tube amp with balls"  Thats what I like about my Cherry.  That is what put me on the DAC doorstep.  Technology is moving at light speed in the "digital amp domain".   I hope that the new Cherry Technology goes on tour in a mono block fashion.  I'd like to see what I'm missing with mono blocks.