pcm vs dsd

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dirk

pcm vs dsd
« on: 8 Jan 2012, 11:36 am »
I don't know the difference...
Who can explain it in a few words ?
Is dsd only for sacd ? Or also for regular formats ?
Mytek Stereo192-DSD-DAC-Silver-Pre-Version
versus grace design m903 for example...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Direct_Stream_Digital
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_eXtreme_Definition

ted_b

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Re: pcm vs dsd
« Reply #1 on: 8 Jan 2012, 02:54 pm »
DSD differs from PCM in that it is a 1 bit format, running at 64x the resolution of cd, or 2.82Mhz (often called DSD 64).  There is also the capability of doing 3x that, called DSD128 (5.6Mhz) but that version is less prevalent.  DSD 64  is the format used by SACD's, and has become more of a topic lately now that SACD's can be ripped to play in computer audio.  Note:  there are not many native DSD DACS, so many folks convert native DSD to a hirez PCM format like 24/352k or 24/176k.  This conversion, however, introduces noise up in the 50k and 100k spectrum which needs to be filtered out in the PCM world.  That is why the ultimate goal should be: if it's recorded in PCM, then listen to it in PCM; if it;s recorded in DSD then listen to it in DSD.  For analog transfer I prefer the DSD choice, but that is a personal opinion.

dirk

Re: pcm vs dsd
« Reply #2 on: 8 Jan 2012, 04:35 pm »
ok,

sacd is dsd
regular cd is pcm

How about streaming audio ? And high resolution files ? How do i know what i get/have ?

ted_b

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Re: pcm vs dsd
« Reply #3 on: 8 Jan 2012, 06:05 pm »
ok,

sacd is dsd
regular cd is pcm

How about streaming audio ? And high resolution files ? How do i know what i get/have ?

Streaming vs hard drive access is irrelevant to this topic, we are talking formats.  PCM (pulse code modulation) is any 16 or 24 bit music, be it redbook, hirez downloads, etc.  FLAC and other lossless formats eventually get convertted to PCM.  I could get more technical but you asked to keep it simple.  Why the questions, by the way?  PCM is 99.999% of all the lossless music you hear.

SACD is not DSD per se.  SACD is the disc format that uses DSD encoded music.  But DSD can exist outside of SACD.  There are DSD recorders (Korg, etc), DSD downloads (Blue Coast Records, etc).


ted_b

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Re: pcm vs dsd
« Reply #4 on: 8 Jan 2012, 06:15 pm »
NOTE:  Although the OP entitled this thread DSD vs PCM, please let's not make it a discussion of "what's best" cuz it's not worth it...and frankly there is no "best" in this discussion.  Just simply an endeavor to get to the earliest, closest generation to the master.

For example, many SACD's are made up of true DSD recordings, others are analog to DSD (with possibly PCM EQ'ing, etc) and some are PCM masters.  For the latter group I'd much rather hear the music in PCM rather than DSD (no reason to add an extra conversion step).  So, it's not cut and dried.  The reason DSD files are becoming slightly more relevant is because 1) SACD ripping is opening up a new catalog of thousands of recordings that can make it to computer audio, many of which are not PCM-based originally; and 2) there is starting to be a niche set of download sites and labels that are providing their DSD recorded music in DSD files.  These sites provide, basically, a master copy of the recorded music, much like the original native 24/192 PCM downloads from Barry Diament's Soundkeeper Records of his native 24/192 recordings (as well as Todd Garfinkle's MA recordings, Mark Waldrep's AIX recordings, and many of David Chesky's own label native stuff via HDTracks).

golfugh

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Re: pcm vs dsd
« Reply #5 on: 8 Jan 2012, 06:31 pm »
Great article on DSD in Jan/Feb 2012 PFO

http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue59/dsd.htm

ted_b

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Re: pcm vs dsd
« Reply #6 on: 8 Jan 2012, 06:45 pm »
Thanks Mark.  That is generally the presentation Andreas gave at RMAF.  I am very glad he reproduced it here, and that you pointed it out.

In my short history with native DSD playback of DSD recordings (example Mari Kodama's piano recordings of Beethoven Piano Sonatas on Pentatone SACD, ripepd via custom PS3 method) the leading edge, decay and overall woody impact of great piano is absolutely jaw droppingly realistic.  It could very well be that I've just not heard great solo piano natively recorded at 24/92, but so far it takes the cake...easily.  I now have almost 400 SACD ISO images ripped.  :)
« Last Edit: 8 Jan 2012, 08:04 pm by ted_b »

golfugh

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Re: pcm vs dsd
« Reply #7 on: 8 Jan 2012, 06:48 pm »
Been looking for an old PS3, so far to no avail unless I want to pay $300+

gman

Re: pcm vs dsd
« Reply #8 on: 8 Jan 2012, 07:22 pm »
Golfugh, PM me and I might be able to help you out.

Gary

ted_b

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Re: pcm vs dsd
« Reply #9 on: 8 Jan 2012, 07:27 pm »
Remember to check my PS3-for-ripping sticky thread.  Only 3-4 older models of PS3 are candidates, and even so, if firmware is later than 3.55 you are out of luck (no rolling back).
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=95396.0

By the way, let's take any more PS3 SACD ripping discussion to that thread.  As many of you know, I wrote a dummies guide.

dirk

Re: pcm vs dsd
« Reply #10 on: 8 Jan 2012, 07:34 pm »
thx for telling me, i really didn't know !! dsd-pcm

Quote
Resources

As of this writing the following manufacturers are offering playback software supporting native playback of DSD files:

ChannelD Pure Music: www.channld.com Supports DSD and double-rate DSD on Apple Mac.

Audirvana: www.audirvana.com. Supports DSD on Apple Mac.

JRiver Media Center 17: www.jriver.com. Supports DSD and double-rate DSD on Windows PC.

Merging Technologies Emotion: www.merging.com. Supports DSD and double-rate DSD on Windows PC. Release planned for early 2012.

The following labels and artists offer DSD files for download (many more are in preparation):

Blue Coast Records: www.bluecoastrecords.com

Japan: http://ototoy.jp/feature/index.php/sound_and_recording

2L: www.2l.no/hires/index.html

Wheatus: http://wheatus.com

David Elias: www.davidelias.com

Site where various artists and labels offer high resolution recordings for download, including DSD: http://downloadsnow.net

ted_b

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Re: pcm vs dsd
« Reply #11 on: 8 Jan 2012, 08:04 pm »
Yes I beta tested and confirmed native DSD on both PM and Audirvana Plus (aka A+) on Mac.  Damien, in fact, created DSD native on A+ due to my files and software feedback. 

2L is quasi DSD in that their recording method is actually hirez PCM 24/352k (aka DXD), so, again, I like their 24/352k files (played via my Antelope Gold at 24/352k) better than their DSD 64 files (via my Mytek Stereo-192-DSD DAC) cuz the former has no needless conversion.

gman

Re: pcm vs dsd
« Reply #12 on: 10 Jan 2012, 07:38 pm »
In my short history with native DSD playback of DSD recordings (example Mari Kodama's piano recordings of Beethoven Piano Sonatas on Pentatone SACD, ripepd via custom PS3 method) the leading edge, decay and overall woody impact of great piano is absolutely jaw droppingly realistic.  It could very well be that I've just not heard great solo piano natively recorded at 24/92, but so far it takes the cake...easily.  I now have almost 400 SACD ISO images ripped.  :)

Ted, which Mari Kodama disc do you have? Looks like she has several on Pentatone.

Thx
Gary

ted_b

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Re: pcm vs dsd
« Reply #13 on: 11 Jan 2012, 01:44 am »
Gary I have most of hers.  My fave to start with is the one that has sonatas 21-26.

gman

Re: pcm vs dsd
« Reply #14 on: 11 Jan 2012, 05:41 am »
Gary I have most of hers.  My fave to start with is the one that has sonatas 21-26.

Thanks Ted! I'll make sure to pick that one up first.

wisnon

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Re: pcm vs dsd
« Reply #15 on: 17 Jan 2012, 09:56 am »
Gary I have most of hers.  My fave to start with is the one that has sonatas 21-26.

LoL

I still need to pick up these....