Picked up a pair of AR-4X speakers today.......

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Wayner

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Re: Picked up a pair of AR-4X speakers today.......
« Reply #20 on: 16 Jan 2012, 08:42 pm »
Alan, these speakers got rave reviews! Some claimed that only AR-3a bettered them and that was because of the bass output.

That is what I'm all about. It's not taking vintage gear and making it sound like stuff today, it's restoring it to it's original performance. That is what made it great in the first place, and I'd like to know why. The only way I know how to do that is to restore it to it's original intended condition, or at least as close as I can.

If I want ultra performance, I can listen to my Martin Logan speakers or my other new ones. I'll let the other guys try to improve on the old stuff, but odds are, they'll make them worse. Vintage stuff was created by some of the greatest audio minds on earth, like Henry Kloss, Saul Marantz, Edgar Villchur, David Hafler and even Frank Van Alstine is in the mix. I'm trying to restore history, not create my own. I in no way could ever match up to these guys, not for one second.

Wayner

eclein

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Re: Picked up a pair of AR-4X speakers today.......
« Reply #21 on: 16 Jan 2012, 08:51 pm »
Wayner go for it buddy!!!!! I'm right with you, I've heard alot of the modern day speakers and they are excellent but the vintage stuff, rebuilt, spiffed up is Toe Tapping get into it listening!!!!
 Wayner did you post pics...I haven't seen the whole thread so I'll look now but post some if you can! Thanks!! :thumb: :thumb:

Wayner

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Re: Picked up a pair of AR-4X speakers today.......
« Reply #22 on: 16 Jan 2012, 08:55 pm »
Ed, the first day I got them (Saturday) I listened to them and Sunday I decided to start taking them apart. I can snap a photo or two of the drivers if you wish.

Wayner

Æ

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Re: Picked up a pair of AR-4X speakers today.......
« Reply #23 on: 16 Jan 2012, 09:07 pm »
Alan, these speakers got rave reviews! Some claimed that only AR-3a bettered them and that was because of the bass output.

That is what I'm all about. It's not taking vintage gear and making it sound like stuff today, it's restoring it to it's original performance. That is what made it great in the first place, and I'd like to know why. The only way I know how to do that is to restore it to it's original intended condition, or at least as close as I can.

If I want ultra performance, I can listen to my Martin Logan speakers or my other new ones. I'll let the other guys try to improve on the old stuff, but odds are, they made them worse. Vintage stuff was created by some of the greatest audio minds on earth, like Henry Kloss, Saul Marantz, Edgar Villchur, David Hafler and even Frank Van Alstine are in the mix. I'm try to restore history, not create my own. I in no way could ever match up to these guys, not for one second.

Wayner

Well, they are yours to do with whatever you please.

But let me make this (anal) analogy, I see no reason why if someone picked up an old 70s muscle car and restored it that they couldn't hop it up even more. New wheels and tires certainly perform better than the tires of the 70s, disc brakes wouldn't hurt either, some new cams and headers and a high flow exhaust, electronic double spark ignition, and a whole bunch of other things too. It would still be a 70s muscle car, but with a hundred plus more horses under the hood.

That bit about preserving the original capacitor voltage doesn't fit into the formula, equations. You either misunderstood what he had to say about it, otherwise it's a bogus statement. A 20uf 250v cap will work just the same as a 20uf 400v cap. A 100 watt amplifier is only 28.3 volts!
I'll always choose a higher voltage cap over a marginal, borderline voltage cap. Voltages are only likely to be a problem when using electrolytics, which I just won't use in passive crossovers.

The math for capacitive reactance doesn't require a voltage value.



Wayner

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Re: Picked up a pair of AR-4X speakers today.......
« Reply #24 on: 16 Jan 2012, 09:45 pm »
Did you get up on the wrong side of the bed today? It's my project, not yours. I thought some people would enjoy seeing the insides of an AR speaker.

I guess I can just stop posting.
For all the others, this thread has just died. I will no longer post any results of the project with no discuss any conclusions or results.[/]
« Last Edit: 17 Jan 2012, 04:25 pm by Wayner »

doug s.

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Re: Picked up a pair of AR-4X speakers today.......
« Reply #25 on: 16 Jan 2012, 10:14 pm »
Did you get up on the wrong side of the bed today? It's my project, not yours. I thought some people would enjoy seeing the insides of an AR speaker.

I guess I can just stop posting.

For all the others, this thread has just died. I will no longer post any results of the project with no discuss any conclusions or results.
no offense, wayner, but me-thinks it might be you who woke up on the wrong side of the bed.  or, mebbe you are still asleep?   :o

best,

doug s.

Æ

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Re: Picked up a pair of AR-4X speakers today.......
« Reply #26 on: 16 Jan 2012, 10:22 pm »
Did you get up on the wrong side of the bed today? It's my project, not yours. I thought some people would enjoy seeing the insides of an AR speaker.

I guess I can just stop posting.

For all the others, this thread has just died. I will no longer post any results of the project with no discuss any conclusions or results.

Please keep posting, don't stop on account of me. I am thoroughly enjoying this thread. More pictures!
I really apologize if I upset you, not my intention.
« Last Edit: 16 Jan 2012, 11:52 pm by Æ »

Wayner

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Re: Picked up a pair of AR-4X speakers today.......
« Reply #27 on: 16 Jan 2012, 11:12 pm »
Once again a "volunteer" you seem to stir the pot and more then one occasion. I suspect that your "stripes" need to be stripped.

 8)

doug s.

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Re: Picked up a pair of AR-4X speakers today.......
« Reply #28 on: 16 Jan 2012, 11:50 pm »
Once again a "volunteer" you seem to stir the pot and more then one occasion. I suspect that your "stripes" need to be stripped.

 8)
i yust call 'em as i see 'em.  i wasn't the one w/the rude incendiary post...  someone on your thread simply making helpful suggestions - which you can take or leave at your pleasure - and you rip him a new one and act like a child and say you're gonna take your ball and go home so no one can play.

i need to "have my stripes stripped"?  lol - kinda like the pot calling the kettle black. 

whatever... :roll:

neobop

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Re: Picked up a pair of AR-4X speakers today.......
« Reply #29 on: 17 Jan 2012, 02:05 am »
i yust call 'em as i see 'em.  i wasn't the one w/the rude incendiary post...  someone on your thread simply making helpful suggestions - which you can take or leave at your pleasure - and you rip him a new one and act like a child and say you're gonna take your ball and go home so no one can play.

i need to "have my stripes stripped"?  lol - kinda like the pot calling the kettle black. 

whatever... :roll:

Was that post necessary? Please let it go. I know all too well how Wayner feels, whether those feelings are justified (in your mind) or not.

neobop

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Re: Picked up a pair of AR-4X speakers today.......
« Reply #30 on: 17 Jan 2012, 02:30 am »
Hey Wayner,
When I was a kid I bought a bran new pr of 4Xs. They replaced another pr of speakers in my family's stereo. That consisted of a Garrard Type A, Dyna 70 and PAS-2. That was a cool stereo and we were real audiophiles - no stacking records on the Garrard.  :thumb:  The speakers were on their sides in bookshelves and had a nice sound. The acoustic suspension design lent itself to judicious use of the bass control for tonal balance.

I never took the speakers apart or had them repaired and I find your thread fascinating. Please don't let these posts distract you. BTW, I was wondering if Frank mentioned why voltage rating is important in crossover caps. The voltage rating is usually way over anything they will see and I thought it didn't matter. Keep going buddy. I'm holding my breath until further installments.
neo

doug s.

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Re: Picked up a pair of AR-4X speakers today.......
« Reply #31 on: 17 Jan 2012, 05:28 am »
Was that post necessary? Please let it go. I know all too well how Wayner feels, whether those feelings are justified (in your mind) or not.
?!?  you're kidding, right?  i, too, want wayner to keep posting about these - that's why i was watching the thread.  i was simply a wee bit disappointed to see him get so bent outta shape.  i agree w/wayner that he can keep 'em stock if he wishes.  but, saying he was done posting simply cuz someone has suggestions to try something different?   :scratch:  i, like you, and like ae, hope wayner settles down and keeps the info coming...

ymmv,

doug s.

Wayner

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Re: Picked up a pair of AR-4X speakers today.......
« Reply #32 on: 17 Jan 2012, 01:00 pm »
As I understand the cap voltage problem, it is very important to select a cap that is close (but not under) the operating range the cap will be used in, for them to operate properly. Not only did Frank make this statement, but others like Mike Zuccaro have said this too. The problem wont show up in a formula, but there will be a shift in the desired cut-off frequencies, because the cap will not function (as a formula says it should), in an incorrect voltage application. I had ordered some 20mfd 250 volt caps, but Frank recommended I not use them, instead, he had some 10mfd, 100 volt that would be more appropriate for the cross-over application, using 2 in parallel to get the 20mfd rating the cross-over requires.

Wayner

Quiet Earth

Re: Picked up a pair of AR-4X speakers today.......
« Reply #33 on: 17 Jan 2012, 02:51 pm »
Hi Wayner,

Can you tell us how much (and what kind of) batting/insulation was inside the box? There is no batting at all in the picture you posted. Also, it looks like the sides are ply and the back is mdf. Maybe you can describe this too when you have the time.

It's not taking vintage gear and making it sound like stuff today, it's restoring it to it's original performance. That is what made it great in the first place, and I'd like to know why. The only way I know how to do that is to restore it to it's original intended condition, or at least as close as I can.

I agree.  :thumb:


Wayner

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Re: Picked up a pair of AR-4X speakers today.......
« Reply #34 on: 17 Jan 2012, 04:24 pm »
The batting is the usual yellow type insulation, like it's in clumps. The entire speaker was filled with it. Where the woofer was located, there was a "cheese cloth"  type of material, that was used to keep the chunks of insulation from getting into the woofer's spider assembly. The L-pad (or what ever anyone wants to call it) may have had some failure due to that fact that insulation may have gotten inside of it. The construction is open and I saw evidence of material inside of the control. When I re-assemble, I'm going to cover the control with some cheese cloth to keep the stuff out of there.

All drivers were secured with internal steel T-nuts, rather then just wood screws holding them in. The back plate that has the level control and cross-over mounted to is 1/4" wood backing material. The existing cap is about the size of a pack of cigarettes but only about 3/8" think. It's held in place with a bracket that is rivet to the wood backplate. The coil for the woofer is mounted to this bracket with a stud and a Pal-nut type of fastener. I've decided that the old cap is going to stay in there, and I will find a new home for the new caps.

The cabinet is 3/4" MDF walnut veneer, with the veneer also on the inside. These are how my modified Dynaco A25XLs are made. I was told by the cabinet maker that this type of mdf with the veneer on booth sides is more stable to moisture attack, expansion and contraction. To that note, the seams on the cabinet are tight.

Wayner

Wayner

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Re: Picked up a pair of AR-4X speakers today.......
« Reply #35 on: 17 Jan 2012, 06:35 pm »
Tweeter:

 

 

 

Woofer:

 

 

Cabinet:

 

 

'ner

Æ

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Re: Picked up a pair of AR-4X speakers today.......
« Reply #36 on: 18 Jan 2012, 09:17 pm »
As I understand the cap voltage problem, it is very important to select a cap that is close (but not under) the operating range the cap will be used in, for them to operate properly. Not only did Frank make this statement, but others like Mike Zuccaro have said this too. The problem wont show up in a formula, but there will be a shift in the desired cut-off frequencies, because the cap will not function (as a formula says it should), in an incorrect voltage application. I had ordered some 20mfd 250 volt caps, but Frank recommended I not use them, instead, he had some 10mfd, 100 volt that would be more appropriate for the cross-over application, using 2 in parallel to get the 20mfd rating the cross-over requires.

Wayner

Sorry to interject again, but I just posted and received a reply from Frank Van Alstine.

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=102606.msg1040686#msg1040686

By the way, that enclosure, cabinet work looks really nice. Did you re-stain or wax, polish the veneer?

Wayner

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Re: Picked up a pair of AR-4X speakers today.......
« Reply #37 on: 18 Jan 2012, 10:04 pm »
Cabinets and drivers were original and in excellent condition, but I did lightly sand and re oil the cabinets, as I always do with my restoration projects. The only reason I sanded, is because the top has a couple of light white paint spots, and sanding took them out. Unfortunately, when you do sand on these earlier veneer cabinets, you will also discover that the manufacturer used a stain in the oil. I always used Watco medium walnut oil for refinishing. The oil may have to be applied a couple of times, left on over night and buffed out by hand the next day. It's lots of work, but brings out the wood grain quiet well. That is why they call it "hand rubbed finish".

I have also had to do minor repair work to the tweeter as the glue on the outside of the surround has let loose from the years of use. That has been re-bonded and also siliconed.

Wayner

Mitsuman

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Re: Picked up a pair of AR-4X speakers today.......
« Reply #38 on: 18 Jan 2012, 10:10 pm »
Cabinets and drivers were original and in excellent condition, but I did lightly sand and re oil the cabinets, as I always do with my restoration projects. The only reason I sanded, is because the top has a couple of light white paint spots, and sanding took them out. Unfortunately, when you do sand on these earlier veneer cabinets, you will also discover that the manufacturer used a stain in the oil. I always used Watco medium walnut oil for refinishing. The oil may have to be applied a couple of times, left on over night and buffed out by hand the next day. It's lots of work, but brings out the wood grain quiet well. That is why they call it "hand rubbed finish".

I have also had to do minor repair work to the tweeter as the glue on the outside of the surround has let loose from the years of use. That has been re-bonded and also siliconed.

Wayner

Wayner, I didn't realize they didn't use cast baskets in the early AR's. I just assumed they would be.  :scratch: Very nice work by the way, I recently re-did some Mitsubishi 3-way monitors and I enjoyed the end result alot. :beer:

Russell Dawkins

Re: Picked up a pair of AR-4X speakers today.......
« Reply #39 on: 18 Jan 2012, 10:35 pm »
Cast baskets are a more recent "boutique" phenomenon, in reality more to satisfy market expectations than for much real advantage, especially for bass drivers, I think. Witness Fostex drivers.

These were probably made by CTS of Paducah Kentucky, as were 90% of all drivers in the USA. With CTS, a manufacturer could specify almost any design parameter, even with relatively low-number production runs.