Building a room and looking for advise

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DEV

Building a room and looking for advise
« on: 29 Oct 2011, 11:57 am »
Hi there I'm looking at building a room to tie me over until we move so in return can build my dream room, looking for some opinions and advise on a ideal room size and actual build, your thoughts are most appreciated. Typical basement with not so ideal  :duh:   height restraints, floor space due to bad layout of stair location, furnace room, posts, beams etc.  :duh:

Room size

I have two space options see below:

(ceiling height is 9'3" from the bottom of floor joist to concrete slab, there are some steel beams with measurments of 8'7" from the bottom to concrete slab)

Option #1:

18' x 22'6" I have two 2" x 6" exterior exisiting walls attached to the poured foundation which will stay and I'll be building a new wall in front so to take this into consideration. I also have a furnace on the 22' end wall to contend with.

Option #2:

20' x 45'  Going with this space I would have to relocate the furnace which would now be off to the side, currently it's 22ft into the 45ft space, I know I will not be using this entire space. I could now build both ends of the room further away from the exterior walls which have the 2" x 6" exisiting walls if I wish to. I would have only one exterior wall with exisitng 2" x 6" construction which would be staying and I would be building in front.



A freind provide a site www.bobgolds.com to plug in measurements to look at the graph, he provided two measurements of 22' x 16' x 9' and 22' x 16' x 8'11" Looking at both of these what are your thoughts, I thought they looked pretty good.



The only problem being is I would like a wider room but plugging in such just messed up the graph.


My thoughts to date but not yet finalized;  :scratch:

Construction:

#1 Sub-floor: Installing first with walls built ontop, my thoughts are to use Barricade insulated subfloor www.barricadesubfloor.com but another option is dri-core www.dricore.com
Which product do you think is the better to go with?

#2 Walls: Gasket installed under bottom plate onto sub-floor, constructing new 2" x 4" walls with double top plate in front of the two existing exterior 2" x 6" walls. All walls will be secured using RSIC-DC04 clips attached from the ceiling joist. The two new interior walls construction will be 2" x 6" top & bottom plates with staggered 2" x 4" stud construction, double top plate.

#3 Install material on the underside of the existing sub-floor, Roxel Safe & Sound will be installed in cavities and wall cavities.

#4 Preparation for drywall on the ceiling only: Use RSIC-1 Resilient Sound Isolation Clips with a furring channel (hat track) within or use a EXT04 clip which I would install on the side of the floor joist and be able to have my ceiling higher. This will depend on the actual ceiling height I want.

No preparation for walls, installing drywall onto the wood framing.

#5 Drywall installation: 2 layers of 5/8" with Green Glue between on the ceiling and walls.

#6 Green Glue used throughout between drywall and acoustic calking for joints etc.

#7 Acoustics: not yet finalized

#8 Soffits: Still wondering about these, I see some rooms with none, others with them all around the perimeter and some only down the sides.

Your thought’s in relation to this? What are the benefits or draw backs of doing such?

If I build these my thoughts are to completely finish the room so there is no room compromise and then build such, doing this then if I install lighting cans etc. I will have no concerns.

How would you construct these and what material would I use inside for isolation and for finish?

#9 Ceiling: Another thought is constructing a coffered ceiling effect so to break-up the waves, what are your thoughts of doing this?

How would I construct, material and how far down from the ceiling.

If I build these my thoughts are to completely finish the room so there is no room compromise and then build such.

#10 Bass traps: The two corners behind the speakers should I build these on a angle or just purchase so it’s more flexible? What are the benefits or draw backs from doing such?

If I was to build them how to do the construction, what isolation material do I use and finish? 

#11 Bass trap, back wall of the room: It was recommended to build a cavity for such or should I just use mounted ones?

If I build one my thoughts are to completely finish the room so there is no room compromise and then build such.

How would you construct this and what material would I use inside for isolation and for finish?

What are the benefits or draw backs from doing such?

Thx


Big Red Machine

Re: Building a room and looking for advise
« Reply #1 on: 29 Oct 2011, 12:31 pm »
My entire basement floor is 1/4" OC pink fanfold with 1/2" OSB on top with roofing clips keeping them flat.  While this only gives you an R of about 1.5, it gives you a cushion under your feet and an easy attachment of the toe plates to the OSB with screws instead of power nailing.  The floor does NOT move around and just makes installation of everything later on much easier.

The RSIC clips are expensive.  I used these on the same hat channel the RSIC uses and they were only $5 each:  http://www.kineticsnoise.com/arch/isomax/index.aspx

If I did it over with the space you have I would splay the walls and ceiling to significantly reduce the room modes and I would pre-build corner traps in all 4 corners.  The double drywall is great with the GG but 1/2" doubled is pretty darned good as well and a whole lot easier to handle.

MaxCast

Re: Building a room and looking for advise
« Reply #2 on: 29 Oct 2011, 12:50 pm »
You are going to do all the above to a temporary room?  When do you estimate your move?
You going long wall or short wall set up?  Type of speakers?

Anyway, your list pretty much is a dream room.  I did all the double drywall, rsic clips, etc.  If I had more space I would do as Pete suggests.  Angle your walls, install permanent bass traps in the corners, get fancy with the ceiling and sofit traps.  Look into absorption as well as diffusion.

If I was to spend this kind of money I would pay for two consultants opinions as well.


DEV

Re: Building a room and looking for advise
« Reply #3 on: 29 Oct 2011, 12:53 pm »
My entire basement floor is 1/4" OC pink fanfold with 1/2" OSB on top with roofing clips keeping them flat.  While this only gives you an R of about 1.5, it gives you a cushion under your feet and an easy attachment of the toe plates to the OSB with screws instead of power nailing.  The floor does NOT move around and just makes installation of everything later on much easier.

The RSIC clips are expensive.  I used these on the same hat channel the RSIC uses and they were only $5 each:  http://www.kineticsnoise.com/arch/isomax/index.aspx

If I did it over with the space you have I would splay the walls and ceiling to significantly reduce the room modes and I would pre-build corner traps in all 4 corners.  The double drywall is great with the GG but 1/2" doubled is pretty darned good as well and a whole lot easier to handle.

Hi Big Red Machine,

thx for that info.

Yes I have also been looking at those clips you mentioned also, do think if I just sprayed the existing wall cavities (exisiting exterior 2" x 6" walls already built and but secured to the foundation walls) and then instead of building a new wall just use the kinetic clip system with H-channel onto these studs.

Makes sence about spraying the cavities.

I found this in relation to a option for building the corner traps. http://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/home-audio-acoustics/7758-corner-traps-finally-finished.html

FullRangeMan

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Re: Building a room and looking for advise
« Reply #4 on: 29 Oct 2011, 12:59 pm »
Hi,
The most important issue on roon acoustics is the room shape, and the best room shape I find is the Golden Trapagon as see on the Cardas site. Pictured below:
The Golden trapagon room, mesearuments in cm:

The regular cuboid golden ratio room, with speakers position suggestion:



DEV

Re: Building a room and looking for advise
« Reply #5 on: 29 Oct 2011, 01:03 pm »
You are going to do all the above to a temporary room?  When do you estimate your move?
You going long wall or short wall set up?  Type of speakers?

Anyway, your list pretty much is a dream room.  I did all the double drywall, rsic clips, etc.  If I had more space I would do as Pete suggests.  Angle your walls, install permanent bass traps in the corners, get fancy with the ceiling and sofit traps.  Look into absorption as well as diffusion.

If I was to spend this kind of money I would pay for two consultants opinions as well.



Hi MaxCast,

1# How long planning on staying:

Honestly don't know, discussing such with my with my wife mentioned at least 5 years but she has me  :scratch: because we have now been in our home for 12 years and the plan originally was we were waiting for our son to finish school and go into University which has come and gone is now on his forth year so go figure.

#2 Short wall set-up but not 100% decided

#3 MBL 101E's

bpape

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Re: Building a room and looking for advise
« Reply #6 on: 29 Oct 2011, 01:06 pm »
My entire basement floor is 1/4" OC pink fanfold with 1/2" OSB on top with roofing clips keeping them flat.  While this only gives you an R of about 1.5, it gives you a cushion under your feet and an easy attachment of the toe plates to the OSB with screws instead of power nailing.  The floor does NOT move around and just makes installation of everything later on much easier.

The RSIC clips are expensive.  I used these on the same hat channel the RSIC uses and they were only $5 each:  http://www.kineticsnoise.com/arch/isomax/index.aspx

If I did it over with the space you have I would splay the walls and ceiling to significantly reduce the room modes and I would pre-build corner traps in all 4 corners.  The double drywall is great with the GG but 1/2" doubled is pretty darned good as well and a whole lot easier to handle.

Pink and subfloor can give you some feel - but does not provide a path for any water on the floor should it happen.

I also happen to know where you can get the RSIC clips for < $5 each  :wink: :thumb:

The golden cuboid can work pretty well IF you also set up according to Cardas.  I've had mixed results personally. I've heard it work very well and I've heard it be average at best.  At a minimum, you have to be willing to do nearfield listening as that's part of the setup.

Bryan

DEV

Re: Building a room and looking for advise
« Reply #7 on: 29 Oct 2011, 01:08 pm »
Hi,
The most important issue on roon acoustics is the room shape, and the best room shape I find is the Golden Trapagon as see on the Cardas site. Pictured below:
The Golden trapagon room, mesearuments in cm:

The regular cuboid golden ratio room, with speakers position suggestion:


Thx, I have looked at Cardas site, so using that method what options do you see working in my space allowance then?

FullRangeMan

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Re: Building a room and looking for advise
« Reply #8 on: 29 Oct 2011, 01:18 pm »
Thx, I have looked at Cardas site, so using that method what options do you see working in my space allowance then?
HI,
My approach is bigger is better, If you can made a larger room I fell thet is better than a smaller room.
Iam posting the picture with the proportions below, to you calculate the sizes of the various wall in US feets:

DEV

Re: Building a room and looking for advise
« Reply #9 on: 29 Oct 2011, 01:26 pm »
What are those measurements you provided can you provide in either inches or feet?

bpape

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Re: Building a room and looking for advise
« Reply #10 on: 29 Oct 2011, 01:36 pm »
Looks like a mix of meters and centimeters

FullRangeMan

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Re: Building a room and looking for advise
« Reply #11 on: 29 Oct 2011, 01:41 pm »
What are those measurements you provided in either inches or feet?
First image are in centimetre
Second image are proportions only, original of Cardas site.
And third image are also proportions of the walls, (if the room high is 10 feets, the room wide must be 16,18 feets, and so on with the others walls sizes ).
Sorry my anemic English.

bpape

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Re: Building a room and looking for advise
« Reply #12 on: 29 Oct 2011, 01:46 pm »
Ah - just lost the decimal points in translation.

Bryan

FullRangeMan

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Re: Building a room and looking for advise
« Reply #13 on: 29 Oct 2011, 01:57 pm »
Ah - just lost the decimal points in translation.

Bryan
OK this is correct, sorry. The proportions are:
Front HI: 1,00
Front Wide: 1,618
Depth: 2,618
Rear Hi: 1,26
Rear Wide: 2,00

P.S.: Very nice from Mr.Cardas post it in his site. Thanks

McTwins

Re: Building a room and looking for advise
« Reply #14 on: 29 Oct 2011, 05:06 pm »
Hi
There is no room dimension that can eliminate modal resonances or peak and deeps in a room, wheather it is golden ratio or any other.

In my room I have within Bolt room dimension ratio and still it didn't get rid of the first fundamental resonances and I had peaks and deeps as well.

Thanks

FullRangeMan

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Re: Building a room and looking for advise
« Reply #15 on: 29 Oct 2011, 05:31 pm »
HI,
Seems to me the less ressonant room is the golden ratio, howmuch is it I unaware. The various shapes as Loude, Morse, Boner, Sepmeyer, Volkmann etc are intend to large concert rooms or experiments only.
Obviusly these shapes are better than a square room, the worse room shape.

McTwins

Re: Building a room and looking for advise
« Reply #16 on: 29 Oct 2011, 05:37 pm »
Sorry, I haven't seen any room measurements of Golden ratio of Cardas dimension. Without treatments.

It is easy to fix a cubic room and remove resonanses and have flat freq response with couple of Helmholtzs resonators. Even I can do it.

Thanks

FullRangeMan

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Re: Building a room and looking for advise
« Reply #17 on: 29 Oct 2011, 05:43 pm »
I listen in a 1,0 x 1,2 room, it is awful I can asure you.

DEV

Re: Building a room and looking for advise
« Reply #18 on: 29 Oct 2011, 09:27 pm »
Well guys I've got my room size now to work with,  :thumb: I'm going to be working with option #1 space to build within.

I knew the ceiling height was the weak link and such was confirmed just not providing me with very good options.

I'm working with Bryan from GIK who has been so kind in assisting me  :thumb: going back and forth communicating, confirming measurements and actual build options etc. to come up with a best possible build for this space.

If you go to http://www.bobgolds.com/Mode/RoomModes.htm and plug in 21' 2" Length x 16' 6" Width x 9' Height and refer to the curve at the bottom, it looks very good with no dips and not even really a flat spot. 

I will be taking pictures along the way with updates, will be interesting for sure.  :lol: :lol:




Rob Babcock

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Re: Building a room and looking for advise
« Reply #19 on: 30 Oct 2011, 04:58 pm »
Cool!  I love to see work-in-progress pics! :thumb: