wires?

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avahifi

wires?
« Reply #20 on: 16 Feb 2006, 12:16 am »
Regarding the question far above now, cause all of the unnecessary "wire" comments (enough already !!!) the OmegaStar 240EX/3 does kick ass really really well.

There was a long thread here by "the chair guy" that went into absolute raves about this amp (he bought one used) almost embarrissingly good comments.  You can find the thread by searching here for "alstine" and then scroll down to what the Chair Guy said.  Of course I just scratch my head about his comments that the amp needed hundreds of hours to break in and sound wonderful.  We feel the break in time is about 30 seconds.

Of course one day he was absolutely in love with it, the next day it was gone, replaced by some little toy digital amp, geeze, so don't take his comments too seriously.

Frank Van Alstine

avahifi

wires?
« Reply #21 on: 16 Feb 2006, 12:20 am »

ajzepp

wires?
« Reply #22 on: 16 Feb 2006, 12:48 am »
Quote from: avahifi
the OmegaStar 240EX/3 does kick ass really really well.



LOL....that's good enough for me.

EDIT: I just read through his review.....I couldn't really care less how the damn things look....It's an AMP for crying out loud. All I know is that if the things sound half as good as what people are saying, then I'll have that part of the problem solved. I'll just have to wait to see which speakers I settle on, then I will know which Van Alstine model to mate with it. I can't wait :)

skrivis

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« Reply #23 on: 16 Feb 2006, 01:14 am »
Quote from: ricmon
Quote from: skrivis
Quote from: ricmon
How dose the field of material science come into play on this issue of wire and their effect on sound/performance in audio equipment?


Far less than some would have you think. :)

Hey, I just noticed that all of the copper coming off the MUX for our SONET ring doesn't use Cardas cable for all those T-1s. Maybe I should suggest ATT get out here and wire everything with long-crystal silver wire so the data flows better?


Try untwisting your cat5 cable.


That's certain to make things worse. They twist it for a reason.

skrivis

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« Reply #24 on: 16 Feb 2006, 01:15 am »
Quote from: Occam
Quote from: Tweaker
Why don't you just try some and find out for yourself? Most audio dealers will let you take  them home to audition and internet like dealers like Mapleshade, and The Audio Advisor, to name just a couple, usually have  generous return policies. Then if you can't hear any improvement it is not because someone said you can't, it's because you found out for yourself.


Great post!!! But its so much easier to let others shape your opinions......


And we don't want to pay any attention to actual science and engineering, do we? Nah. :)

skrivis

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« Reply #25 on: 16 Feb 2006, 01:24 am »
Quote from: daveshel
Quote from: avahifi
A few of you "old timers" might remember Robert Fulton and his famous speakers inculding the pretty awesome Fulton Model J modular system. It was considered by many to be an absolutely world class speaker at the time.
...
Next question?


Back to the first question. Whether I get wire from rat Shack or the city dump (Parts Express was what I had in mind), is it worth it to spend more on, say 13ga speaker wire instead of 18? And I have a ton of plain old generic RCA cables - the  ...


It can't hurt to go with fatter speaker cable, within limits. For rational runs, 12 Ga. is probably as large as you want to go. As long as it will fit your connectors, go for it. :) Parts Express has some good Monster lookalike zip cord that's not too expensive.

For RCA-RCA, I have some of the Parts Express "generic" cables with gold-plated ends and they're quite satisfactory. To answer someone else; they're shielded. It's only the "boutique" companies that try to tell people that unshielded is a good idea.

If you want "better" RCA-RCA cables, get them from Blue Jeans Cables. They're truly high quality. No voodoo involved, they're just well built cables. The shielding is probably a bit better than the generic stuff, although that shouldn't be an issue unless you live next door to a transmitter or get into some kind of odd sexual fetish involving microwave ovens.

BTW, Dan Banquer wrote a couple of articles on making your own speaker and RCA-RCA cables. I'll see if I can find them. although Dan will probably see this and post links. Hey Dan! :)

skrivis

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« Reply #26 on: 16 Feb 2006, 01:28 am »
Quote from: warnerwh
There Canare on Ebay that's pretty cheap


Blue Jeans Cables actually bought the proper Canare tooling to make up RCA-RCA cables. It's far better than what you get if you try to solder up your  own. Don't try to save a penny, just buy it from them. :)

Hey, I'm stingy myself and I bend down to pick up pennies on the sidewalk. But I know when somebody else can do a better job than I can, and when being "cheap" really doesn't save me any money. :)

ajzepp

wires?
« Reply #27 on: 16 Feb 2006, 01:32 am »
Blue Jeans Cables is a perfect example of where I stand on the issue, actually. I'm not going to to the Radio Shack route, but I'm not going to spend lots of money on wire and interconnects either. I purchased a 12' component video cable from Blue Jeans, and I was shocked with the quality. The thing is just HUGE. And even though I'm still not convinced that better audio cables make any difference, I AM convinced that they make a difference with video. I know this because I had to recalibrate my picture after I went with the Blue Jeans cable....the pic became almost 3-D like....

But anyway, as far as audio cables, I'd much rather spend a LITTLE more on cables from a compan like Blue Jeans or Mapleshade.....not breaking the bank, but not going with the cheapest stuff either.

TheChairGuy

wires?
« Reply #28 on: 16 Feb 2006, 02:03 am »
Quote from: avahifi
Regarding the question far above now, cause all of the unnecessary "wire" comments (enough already !!!) the OmegaStar 240EX/3 does kick ass really really well.

There was a long thread here by "the chair guy" that went into absolute raves about this amp (he bought one used) almost embarrissingly good comments.  You can find the thread by searching here for "alstine" and then scroll down to what the Chair Guy said.  Of course I just scratch my head about his comments that the amp needed hundreds of hours to break in and sound wonderful. We feel the break in time is about 30 seconds.

Of course one day he was absolutely in love with it, the next day it was gone, replaced by some little toy digital amp, geeze, so don't take his comments too seriously.

Frank Van Alstine


I did indeed like the amp, Frank - and I wholeheartedly both stand by my convictions about it AND the time it needed to break/settle in.  It took running it over 100 hours here before there was no further benefit....it was bought used and I do not know how many hours it played before I owned it.

You even said that the Omegastars tend to get better over time...as you have one in your video system.  Your comment here about break-in is indeed puzzling  :|

It was the most capable amp I had here for under $1000.00 (I used only 2 channels of the 3 available to me; essentially a 240ex at $899.00)...tho my 'spread' has been embarrassingly low fi in amp selections.

It was replaced by another amp - not 'digital/class D - but a good ole' Class AB output amp.  My choice was purely subjective - I explained this in an email to skrivis during the period I was selling it.  I believe the AVA Omegastar is the creation of a tube lovin' Frank van Alstine...built to best mimic the good things tube amplification can do.  

My choice in amps came down to a manufacturer that made the best of what is available from SS without regard to tube amplification.  They sounded as different as two $1000.00 amps could in my system - and my final choice was the other brand.  

Please don't be offended by my choice - it is, after all, purely subjective on my part.  Your amps are built for the duration to exacting standards and sound lovely on their own right...I just choose another direction to go; one slightly more preferable to me.

I don't believe the current crop of 'digital' amps can meet up with the level of value and sound quality offered by AVA today......but that could change over time.

Many thanks for allowing me the time to explain myself better in your space - my positive (albeit limited) experience with your stuff makes me a fine potential customer for something you manufacture.

Perhaps an Ultimate 70 is in my future???  :roll:

Occam

wires?
« Reply #29 on: 16 Feb 2006, 02:24 am »
Quote from: skrivis
And we don't want to pay any attention to actual science and engineering, do we? Nah. :)

Skrivis -  My response was directed towards Tweaker and daveshel, not you.

My intent was not to upset you by agreeing that dave actually empirically make his own judgements. Indeed.... we wouldn't want to let the most basic principal of the scientific enquiry, empirical verification without preconcieved expectations, intrude, now would we?
The Hawthorne experiment for which the eponymous Effect is named should be quite familiar to a scientist such as yourself.

budyog

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« Reply #30 on: 16 Feb 2006, 02:35 am »
I also agree with Blue Jeans Cable. I bought my Beldon 5000UE 12ga from them and bought the flex wrapping somewhere (I can't remember) terminated them with some good spades from ACI and they work great with the AVA gear.
My interconnects are from SignalCable, the Analog Twos. His prices seem to be very fair and they are very well made.

daveshel

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« Reply #31 on: 16 Feb 2006, 03:06 am »
Thanks, everybody. I have been doing quite a bit of experimenting actually, but it is also good to compare notes with others.

A buddy was trying to sell me some Monster M series speaker cables that retail for $500 and look like the battery cables on my car. I tried them on my AVA solid state rig (170EX/OmegaStar PAT5, both recent and extremely satisfying purchases) and they sounded good. Then dug up some 25-year-old original generation Monster Cable, and it sounded the same. (I thought that stuff was supposed to degrade with oxidation over time.) Then I went back to the 18ga pretty decent copper wire that I had been using and thought the bass was just a little floppy by comparison.

I have had my eye on the 13ga wire at PartsExpress since I can customize my connectors and still come out pretty cheap. I need to save my pennies to complete the AVA upgrades on my Dyna tube rig :)

Tweaker

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« Reply #32 on: 16 Feb 2006, 03:44 am »
I'm one of those irritating moderates who firmly belieives that the truth almost always lies between extremes of thought. There are those, usually engineering tech types, (hey, Frank) who believe that "Radio Shack cables and lamp cord speaker wire is good enough" and won't apparently trust their ears but insist on measurements to tell them that it's ok to for them hear a difference. (Or very possibly are unable to hear differences. Not everyone has 20-20 hearing, although I don't believe that of Frank, and I also know that he has auditioned some interconnects and speaker wire in the past). There is also the self-fullfilling prophesy argument. " You hear differences because you want/expect too". That works both ways, though. You can not hear something if you don't want to as well. There are some people that deeply entrenched.
 Then there are those who will spend $1000.00 (or more) on a pair of interconnects. That does tend to fall into the "more money than brains category" and the makers of some of those cables are probably truly pushing  snake oil. At the very least, the rule of diminishing returns applies most heavily to the subject in question, and that if there is an improvent in sound between a $100.00/pair interconnect and $1000.00/pair it's not a ten fold improvement, however that could be determined. There are also salesmen in some highend salons who will coach you as far as what you should expect to hear when auditioning cable/wires because it is true we are susceptible to suggestion. And that is  a problem. The only cables I have personally "listened"  to have been fairly modestly priced (that's relative, I know) and all have sounded different. I settled on one that sounded better different and can only say that it is not because I expected them to but simply because they did.  I've got good hearing and I trust my ears. That is why I didn't send back the Omegastar  amp(s) I purchased from AVA on a 30 -day trial. It sounded way better than my B&K. Not because Frank said it would but, simply, because it did. I trusted my ears, not Franks opinion. He tends to be a little biased toward his stuff anyway, for some reason.  Now there are guys like Pete Aczel of the Audio Critic who would say I'm delusional because he feels that all properly designed and functioning amps, preamps, cd players, etc., should all sound the same and anyone who tells you otherwise is pushing snake oil, and if you can tell the difference in sound than it's because you want to, or the equipment is not operating properly. No ifs, ands, or buts. Therefore, in Pete's mind, Frank would be a snake oil salesman because of the claims he makes about the superior sound of his products compared to the competition. Sound familiar?
 It's a shame to have such a mindset. I feel saddened to think that anyone could believe that their $800.00 cd player connected to their $1700.00 preamp connected to their $2000.00 amplifier, connected to their $2500.00 a pair speaker system with Radio Shack interconnects and lamp cord speaker wire is coming even close to the potential that is there. That there are people who own some of Franks beautifully designed equipment and will never realize how truly extraordinary they can sound because, as good as they may sound with lamp cord, they are amazing with "magic wires".

By the way, I can also recommend Blue Jeans Cables for video. I haven't tried the audio stuff as I am happy with what I have but their component video cable is a heck of a buy. Well built and modestly priced.

boead

wires?
« Reply #33 on: 16 Feb 2006, 04:20 am »
Quote from: daveshel
Thanks, everybody. I have been doing quite a bit of experimenting actually, but it is also good to compare notes with others.

A buddy was trying to sell me some Monster M series speaker cables that retail for $500 and look like the battery cables on my car. I tried them on my AVA solid state rig (170EX/OmegaStar PAT5, both recent and extremely satisfying purchases) and they sounded good. Then dug up some 25-year-old original generation Monster Cable, and it sounded the same. (I thought that stuff was sup ...


After listening to dozens of different speaker cables (courtesy of Usedcables.com) and a buddy that was shopping for wire we learned that more expensive wasn’t better but cheaper wasn’t always a bargain.  
MIT’s wire was nearly always good, their ‘S’ series (series 3, 2 and 1) just sound great with nearly every pair of speakers and amp. Their ‘S’ series IC’s also are great. I got several pairs used for about a third the retail price.
Synergistic Research’s speaker cables and IC’s were also some of the overall best. The active grounds aren’t necessary and seem gimmicky but are effective.

The way he(we) listened was to NOT look at the prices on the invoice. Leaving it in the box, unopened. After listening to each of the wires that were sent, many of which we never heard of and had NO idea the price. In the end after assessments were made, we  looked at the prices. It was a total tossup. Price was NO strong governing factor in quality although most of the ones we liked best weren’t cheapest but the most expensive weren’t best.
In some cases Home Depot exterior extension cords sounded as good as $150 cables (8 footers on average) but not once did it sound best, actually it never even made it into the middle of the road. Neither did the Radio Shack or Monster cables which all sounded alike. They were all basically moderately shielded heavy gauge copper. Nothing special in design, quality or sound.

I agree with Tweaker in that you can miss out on what some gears potential really is. Sure my system sounds nice with Radio Shack Gold brand IC’s (I use them here and there too) but it sounds much better with my MIT S3’s (the cheapest of the series) and my speaker cables are home made cables of Litz wire thanks to some NASA surplus. They compared favorably to most $400 +/- cables. Sure, I heard IC’s and speaker cables that sounded better but I drew the line and found a place that was acceptable. I also didn’t’ choose my cables due to some marketing campaign; I know all about that I work in publishing/advertising. And no Frank, were not all snake oil salesmen – were mostly businessmen much like yourself! I choose cables after hearing VERY MANY. Serious, places like usedcables.com are a major asset to a hobbyist. For a tiny fee, not even a fee but rather a commitment of some sort of purchase at some time within a year, you can listen to cables and wire till your happy. They have every type you can imagine and all are lenders, you get them for a week or two to audition.
Hearing for yourself is the key. If you hear a difference that you like, GREAT - you’re not insane or stupid as many would like to believe.
If two identically made capacitors or resistors can sound different, why is it so hard to believe that differently made wire and dielectric can’t?

Tweaker

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« Reply #34 on: 16 Feb 2006, 01:08 pm »
Quote
If two identically made capacitors or resistors can sound different, why is it so hard to believe that differently made wire and dielectric can’t?

  Oh boy, that was a mistake. Run! Run for your life!

ricmon

wires?
« Reply #35 on: 16 Feb 2006, 01:49 pm »
I am in the same camp as teaker and boead.  when i got my first set of class a amps i had some monster cable and interconnects that i had been using in my mid-fi system.  because i had never heard hi-end gear before it was fine.  i was in heaven.  then i got a pair of soild core diy cabels.  wow the sound got much better espesially the base.  logic kicks in and i deduce that there must be something to this cable stuff.  howver being the cheap o that i am i decied to go down to the old home depot and got a box of Romex.  yes the same stuff used to wire your house.  it souned waaaay better the the old muti-strand stuff i was using.  after a few years of using romex logic kicks in again.  however i still was not going to pay mega bucks for cabels and interconnects.  so after doing my research i decied to go with LAT-International.  again the sound improvred in all areas and i still have them to day.  one last thing.  i tried the Blue Jean bi-wires but put the LAT's back in.  end of story  this same thinking also bought me to the AVA gear.  Mr. V are'nt you glad that some of us thing for our selfs.

skrivis

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« Reply #36 on: 16 Feb 2006, 04:18 pm »
Quote from: Occam
Quote from: skrivis
And we don't want to pay any attention to actual science and engineering, do we? Nah. :)

Skrivis -  My response was directed towards Tweaker and daveshel, not you.

My intent was not to upset you by agreeing that dave actually empirically make his own judgements. Indeed.... we wouldn't want to let the most basic principal of the scientific enquiry, empirical verification without preconcieved expectations, intrude, now would we?
The Hawthorne experiment for which the eponymous Effect is named should be quite familiar to a scientist such as yourself.


No problem. I guess I misread your reply.

I very, very rarely get upset about things on the net. However, I do get very passionate about some things. Hi-fi is one of them. :)

I studied the Hawthorne experiments in a Sociology class years ago, and just refreshed my memory of them.

I don't think they really say what you wrote above. One thing that they did note is that the very process of being studied increased the productivity of the workers. That reminds me of the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle. The process of measuring something changes it.

http://www.nwlink.com/~donclark/hrd/history/hawthorne.html

I'm not a scientist. I did have a lot of scientific training, formal and informal, but I switched midstream and started working with computers. I'm a Unix Systems Administrator, and I woudn't call what I do science. :) (Mainly what I do is display laziness. I work on something so that I won't have to work on it next time. If I'm really good, I don't have to do anything at all. hehe)

skrivis

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« Reply #37 on: 16 Feb 2006, 04:40 pm »
Quote from: boead
to cables and wire till your happy. They have every type you can imagine and all are lenders, you get them for a week or two to audition.
Hearing for yourself is the key. If you hear a difference that you like, GREAT - you’re not insane or stupid as many would like to believe.
If two identically made capacitors or resistors can sound different, why is it so hard to believe that differently made wire and dielectric can’t?


I don't have any problem with your hearing differences. More power to you if you find something that works great for you!

But I do question _why_ you're hearing differences. An engineer would say that wire is wire, and that there should not be any audible difference, given rational cable designs. (Un-shielded and highly capacitive or inductive cables will likely produce audible changes. Very resistive speaker cables will produce an audible change too, although it's easier to compensate for this.)

Various DBTs have shown that people can't distinguish between cables. Some people then say that DBTs are flawed (notably John Atkinson) and that subjective, sighted listening is more important.

If there _is_ a difference that you can hear, why doesn't that show up during a DBT too?

Why doesn't engineering give the answers? Shouldn't a well-engineered cable that's designed for the purpose (Belden does this very well) outperform other cables?

I suspect that there is some other mechanism at work here that is causing people to hear differences. It doesn't seem to be engineering or science that's doing it. So I want to know what's the real story here. :) (Or maybe I'm wrong and it is a concrete, neasurable thing that's making the difference. But I would want to know about that too!)

Finally, I think that there are just far better places to spend your money than fancy wire or parts or other expensive tweaks. Only when you've got the best speakers, the best electronics, the best listening room, and all of the recorded music that you want is it worthwhile spending money on things like wire. There are plenty of more cost-effective things you can do to solve real, objective problems before spending money on wire.

Also, how do you know when you've succeeded in your wire search? I keep seeing people who go through more wires and speakers and amps than I will go through in a lifetime. It's like the IC-of-the-month club or something. :) There seems to be a measure of unhappiness and uncertainty there that makes me question how you know when you're getting good results.

avahifi

wires?
« Reply #38 on: 16 Feb 2006, 05:28 pm »
Actually, engineering does show the changes in many wires.

Braided wires are a heavy capactive load, and that does very bad things to the linearity of the source driving that load, and that is a very audible change for the worse, although some people like that for reasons I cannot fathom.

Unshielded interconnects introduce all kinds of RFI into the components, and that also does very bad things for the components linearity.  That also is audible, and again a very bad change.


Small gauge speaker wires do reduce the output levels of the system, althought this is an across the board reduction, not frequency dependent, and can be made up with a click or two up on the volume controi.

Gonzo heavy wires and interconnects with huge termination hardware often changes the sound of systems too.  The wires can pop loose because they are so stiff, causing huge ground hum pulses, destroying the equipment, and that change is audible.  The gonzo terminations break jacks, and short together, and people use pipe wrenches to tighten the speaker connections, breaking the binding posts completely off, that too is audiible.


RFI and 60 Hz can get into speaker wires, an easy cure is to chuck the wires into a drill and twist about 3-4 turns per foot for quite good shielding for this.

Inasmuch as nobody here has ever heard any difference between different brands of cables and wires that are of "normal" construction in double blind tests, and inasmuch as an awful lot of people think that I have really good ears when it comes to evaluate the actual equipment, and inasmuch as our equipment has been pleasing to many people over the years, and inasmuch as I would be an idiot to not recommend wires or cables that actually made out equipment sound better and sell better making more money for me (and I don't think I am a complete idiot), then I wish that more of you would just listen to what I am telling you, and that is that if you spend more money for wires and interconnects than you would have needed to at Home Depot, you are screwing yourselves.

Sugar pills work big time!

Frank Van Alstine

ajzepp

wires?
« Reply #39 on: 16 Feb 2006, 05:53 pm »
I'm still trying to figure out if Van Alstine is a German surname  :?: