Too much of a good thing - too many tubes?

audiowalker · « **on:** 21 Feb 2010, 08:08 pm »

Hi everyone,

Is there such a thing as too many tubes? Meaning, I have an Onix SP3/3 amp with a Cary NEW P3 preamplifier and a AMC CD6d tube player. I was wondering if having so many tubes will minimize the benefits of having tubes? Or will there be conflicts between the different tubes in each components? Lastly, any recommendation to maximize the sonic benefit of tubes with all three? Like having all the tubes be of the same manufacturer. I hope that makes sense...thanks in advance.

Cheers ~

Pez · « **Reply #1 on:** 21 Feb 2010, 08:10 pm »

I personally feel that there is no such thing as having too many tubes. There is a such thing as having too many mediocre/bad pieces of gear that can snowball into a bad thing regardless of whether it's solid state or tubed. I have heard systems that sound very VERY solid state that have 30-40 tubes in it and my own personal system has all of 8 and it sounds more liquid, warm and yes, tubey than most. It's all in what type of gear you have IMO.

R_burke · « **Reply #2 on:** 21 Feb 2010, 08:24 pm »

I use a Shanling CD T100 with a Philly audio Blue 7 preamp, they both use 2C51 type tubes (I use Bendix Red Bank 6385) and I power GR Research OB-5 speakers via Manley Mahi Mahi monoblocks using EL-84 tubes I love the sound and have no problem with using all tube based equipment.

I think it is a matter of synergy between the components, and that can be achieved in any number of ways.

If you like it and you've tried other things than spend your time enjoying the music

Ericus Rex · « **Reply #3 on:** 21 Feb 2010, 10:34 pm »

I currently have 21 tubes in use right now and I'm lovin every minute of it! A real hodge-podge of brands too from NOS to current pro. If your ears say there is nothing wrong then trust them!

Rocket · « **Reply #4 on:** 21 Feb 2010, 10:41 pm »

Hi,

Interestingly I also use an N.E.W. p3 preamplifier (OEM Cary) and whilst I haven't heard the onix tube amplifier I can say that this preamplifiers doesn't sound tubey to my ears and is very close to the sound of my bel canto pre1 preamplifier.

Regards

Rod

audiowalker · « **Reply #5 on:** 21 Feb 2010, 11:47 pm »

Quote from: Rocket on 21 Feb 2010, 10:41 pm

Hi,

Interestingly I also use an N.E.W. p3 preamplifier (OEM Cary) and whilst I haven't heard the onix tube amplifier I can say that this preamplifiers doesn't sound tubey to my ears and is very close to the sound of my bel canto pre1 preamplifier.

Regards

Rod

What tubes are you using with your Cary N.E.W preamp? Thanks ~

pjanda1 · « **Reply #6 on:** 22 Feb 2010, 04:11 pm »

There is such a thing as too much gain! It seems to me that that vintage-y Onix circuit wants more like 1V input than the now CD (and some phono stage) standard 2V (partially why folks like swapping a 5751 in place of the 'X7 in the Onix, I suppose), so I think you've got too much gain even before adding a preamp. (When using a CD as a source). Where do you have your volume controls positioned? I aim for 1/2-2/3 the way up at "normal" listening levels. The obvious problem with too much gain is excessive noise. Can you hear any hiss when your amp and preamp are on?

"Minimizing the benefits of tubes" depends mostly on what you think the benefits are. I think the main benefits of tubes are their linearity and drive. They don't need a bunch of feedback and complexity to create a nice low distortion amp. I think fewer parts generally sound better. When you start adding stages, you are adding not only noise, but in many cases (probably not the Cary), feedback and also distortion. I don't get why folks seem to desire more amplification than they need. If you a whole bunch of amplification devices with a whole bunch of feedback wrapped around them, then what's not to love about SS?

So, I'd try listening to the CDP with and without the preamp in between. Don't worry about tubes in the CDP. It probably needs some sort of analog output stage, and better it be tubes than SS! (Probably just a buffer anyway, which isn't going to be particularly "tubey" sounding). It may well be that the Onix sounds better with the Cary in front of it, but if so, I suspect it is because the sonic signatures are complementary. I haven't heard the Cary, but I suspect, based on my understanding of Cary's "house sound" that it is a very different sounding device than a relatively high feedback, push pull pentode amp (the Onix, which I really do like). So, maybe the two play nice together. If so, you might look into a pair of 5751's. . .

Paul

audiowalker · « **Reply #7 on:** 22 Feb 2010, 07:19 pm »

Hi Paul,

No hum nor hiss from either the preamp or amp. They are both dead silent so I think the gain is fine. Thanks for your kind suggestions and comments. I am new to tubes so all the information everyone has given is helpful. I know each of us have different listening tastes and as a result this can be very subjective but I still find this information very useful. So, thanks again.

All three sound wonderful together, in my opinion, but I just wanted to make sure I was not "missing something" since I am 90% deaf....just joking on the last part.

So, this leads me to another question - do tube dampers work? And if so, what are they suppose to do or what are the suppose benefits?

Thanks to you and everyone else who have been very helpful.

Cheers ~

Ericus Rex · « **Reply #8 on:** 23 Feb 2010, 12:31 am »

I'm skeptical about this one too! Very interested in reading everyone's responses.

Quote from: audiowalker on 22 Feb 2010, 07:19 pm

do tube dampers work? And if so, what are they suppose to do or what are the suppose benefits?

Pez · « **Reply #9 on:** 23 Feb 2010, 01:12 am »

Yes they do work. They do what every damper does. They dampen energy. In this case vibration. The type of damper matters. The Herbies teflon tube dampers will improve everything from bass precision to soundstage depth, image stability, high frequency clarity, midrange smoothness... To put it another way there's very little a proper damper doesn't improve.

doug s. · « **Reply #10 on:** 23 Feb 2010, 01:17 am »

if you are using active x-over and subwoofers, i would say using tube amps for the subs is having too many tubes.

doug s.

audiowalker · « **Reply #11 on:** 23 Feb 2010, 04:49 am »

Hey Doug,

This is totally off subject but I see you have a parrot, is he or she a Senegal? I have a Caique. I tried to place a picture of him as my avatar but I have not been able to figure this out. Not a priority though......back to your regularly schedule programing folks......

Okay Pez - they are relatively a cheap mod so I may try this. Any recommendation on either the amp or preamp or both?

Thanks everyone~

Cheers.

doug s. · « **Reply #12 on:** 24 Feb 2010, 05:51 pm »

hey audiowalker, it's your thread, you can side-track it if you want, i guess!

to post an avatar, go to "profile" at the top of the page, then go to modify profile, then to foruum profile. you can add pics there.

the parrot, she's a green-cheek conure. she was a package deal w/my woman.

larger pic:

re: tube dampers, i haven't tried herbies, but i like the pearl tube coolers, cuz, they, well, allow the tubes to run cooler.

http://www.partsconnexion.com/t/Advertising/audiogon/pearl.html

doug s.

Listens2tubes · « **Reply #13 on:** 25 Feb 2010, 05:05 pm »

"This is totally off subject but I ... tried to place a picture of him as my avatar but I have not been able to figure this out. Not a priority though......back to your regularly schedule programing folks......"

Try resizing your picture to the max allowable pixel size stated on the profile page.

Cheers

And there can never be too much of a good thing.

srb · « **Reply #14 on:** 25 Feb 2010, 05:18 pm »

Kind of like a living, breathing Watts Dust Bug. A little cleaning solution judiciously applied to the tail....

Steve

JackD201 · « **Reply #15 on:** 25 Feb 2010, 05:46 pm »

Quote from: srb on 25 Feb 2010, 05:18 pm

Kind of like a living, breathing Watts Dust Bug. A little cleaning solution judiciously applied to the tail....

Steve

Watch out for the built in dispenser.......

Too many tubes? Nah. Just one bad tube....

gerald porzio · « **Reply #16 on:** 25 Feb 2010, 05:49 pm »

The audiophile credo states that one can't have too much of a good thing. That's why I'm a non believer. Let others break in, burn in & burn out.

zybar · « **Reply #17 on:** 25 Feb 2010, 05:51 pm »

Quote from: Ericus Rex on 23 Feb 2010, 12:31 am

I'm skeptical about this one too! Very interested in reading everyone's responses.

Eric,

Better yet, come over for a visit and I can let you hear my system with and without Herbie's Tube Dampers in place.

George

hmen · « **Reply #18 on:** 25 Feb 2010, 06:45 pm »

Herbies tube dampers definitely work.

doug s. · « **Reply #19 on:** 25 Feb 2010, 06:54 pm »

Quote from: srb on 25 Feb 2010, 05:18 pm

Kind of like a living, breathing Watts Dust Bug. A little cleaning solution judiciously applied to the tail....

Steve

can't you see? i was doing an a-b test - bird vs keith monks record sweeper.

doug s.