AudioCircle

Audio/Video Gear and Systems => All Solid State => Topic started by: Tomy2Tone on 12 Nov 2014, 01:56 am

Title: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Tomy2Tone on 12 Nov 2014, 01:56 am
Since I guess I started a make shift tour of one of these amps I figured I'll dedicate a thread to it and all things Crown XLS. Whether you want to cryo it, mono it, feed it to sharks, throw it off a cliff and see if it's still ticking(not the tour amp  :nono:).... whatever floats your boat.

Tour as of now...

Jackman/Roscoeiii- Chicago

rodge827- Jersey

mjosef- Brooklyn

SteveFord- PA

jtsnead- MD

Freo-1- MA

zapper7- NV

Peter J- ID

S Clark- TX


Pm me if you want to be added.

Carry on chaps!  :D
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: OzarkTom on 12 Nov 2014, 02:42 am
Since I am going to have three 1500's, I will keep one stock, one will be cryo'ed, then one modded by Salis Audio and then cryo'd. I will see which one is the best and by how much. It might just be worth keeping these Crowns stock. I need to send my well broken-in one to the cryoman, he said if the unit is not broken-in, it could take up to 500 hours to burn in.

It will be interesting in what Salis Audio finds. One of the main secrets is that drivecore chip in the Crown amp. The one chip replaces 500 parts in the amp. No doubt, that keeps the prices way down. :D
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Tomy2Tone on 12 Nov 2014, 02:52 am
Since I am going to have three 1500's, I will keep one stock, one will be cryo'ed, then one modded by Salis Audio and then cryo'd. I will see which one is the best and by how much. It might just be worth keeping these Crowns stock. I need to send my well broken-in one to the cryoman, he said if the unit is not broken-in, it could take up to 500 hours to burn in.

Have you read anywhere how long it takes one of these Crowns to finally settle in? I know in general it seems class d takes quite a while. ICE amps I've got took about 300 hrs and I've read D-sonic can take 800 or so to really reach its peak.

Very much looking forward to what everybody thinks and finds out.  I've never heard an Ncore amp so I like that there's a few on the tour that have them and can compare...not so much if it's definitively better but can it be close enough. I know this hobby is usually about extracting that last little bit of sound quality so I'm not expecting this amp to be the end all be all but can it for the price do well enough.

Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: OzarkTom on 12 Nov 2014, 03:05 am
I would say about 200 hours for a new one. It might improve even up to 400, but very marginal after 200 hours.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Quiet Earth on 12 Nov 2014, 03:21 am
Why would you cryo a complete amplifier? That can't be good for the electrolytic capacitors can it? I'll bet it sure screens out the bad solder joints though.....  :D. (I'm probably the only guy here on Audio Circle who thinks its a terrible waste to cryo vaccuum tubes, so don't let me get to you. Carry on men! :wink:)
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: ZAKski288 on 13 Nov 2014, 01:17 am
I have a question about break in time . I have two XLS1500  but have only been used in LowPass Mode  for subwoofers and let me tell you they ROCK.
Does the time used in lowpass hours do anything if I switch to Stereo Mode (Full Range)? Thanks Ken
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: DaveC113 on 13 Nov 2014, 01:33 am
ZAK, it's probably good to go.

I look forward to see if anyone ends up modding the Crown, I'm considering doing the connectors but they're all PCB mount which makes it more work.

Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Tomy2Tone on 13 Nov 2014, 01:45 am
I have a question about break in time . I have two XLS1500  but have only been used in LowPass Mode  for subwoofers and let me tell you they ROCK.
Does the time used in lowpass hours do anything if I switch to Stereo Mode (Full Range)? Thanks Ken

Hey ZAKski288,

I noticed in your gallery pics you have "crown vs Ncore" labeled under their pic. Are you in the midst of comparing them with your full range speakers? Or just getting started?

Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: dlaloum on 13 Nov 2014, 02:54 am
Having purchased both of mine (well) used, I assume they were thoroughly broken in...

The shipping company ensured that the rack mount ears were "broken in" too.... :evil:

Luckily it was still useable... although cosmetically not so hot.

I look forward to results of mods and cryo...

I looked at their guts, and it really is a single monolithic surface mount PCB for EVERYTHING - so no obvious mods "jump out" for me!

But the comments about the Neutrik connectors providing a better connection point is interesting.... I will have to make up a set of speaker cables, but that has been on the books for when i get "a round tuit".... so maybe I will find that tuit now!

bye for now

David
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: ZAKski288 on 13 Nov 2014, 04:16 am
Yes I do own Ncores and used the XLS1500  for 2 subwoofers .  Earlier this evening I did hook up the Crown in full range and was kind of impressed :o but need to do some more comparing of the two.   ZAK
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=108500)
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: OzarkTom on 13 Nov 2014, 08:13 am
Yes I do own Ncores and used the XLS1500  for 2 subwoofers .  Earlier this evening I did hook up the Crown in full range and was kind of impressed :o but need to do some more comparing of the two.   ZAK
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=108500)

Zak, no matter what, even if you have to lie, make sure you say that the Ncores sounds the best and by a huge margin. And that goes for all of the Ncore owners on this tour. We don't want any riots to start here. :nono:
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: rodge827 on 13 Nov 2014, 11:52 am
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=108500)

Beauty and the Beast!

Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: dlaloum on 13 Nov 2014, 12:22 pm
Which one is which?  :scratch:
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: jackman on 13 Nov 2014, 12:45 pm
Zak,
I look forward to your comments. If the Crown comes up short, get ready to explain:

- why you chose not to cryo treat the Crown...even though there is no proof this is safe or improves the performance in any way.

- why you didn't have thousands of hours break in on the Crown. If it doesn't sound good, no matter how many hours you have used it, the reason it came up short is because it needs a couple hundred more hours to fully break in.

-  why you didn't use those magic wood pucks (and cushy pads underneath for bonus points). The Crown cognoscenti can't live without their magic pucks and I can imagine people attributing the outcome of your evaluation to the use of these pucks, or lack thereof.

I'm looking forward to comparing the Crown to the NCore and will post my honest opinion. If I feel extra ambitious I'll even compare it to the older Crown K1 currently powering my subs. That will be a PITA because I'll have to mess with the level of the subs and everything is dialed in perfectly at the moment.

My intention is to play some of my favorite tracks, ones I'm very familiar with, jazz, rock, lots of vocals, some good recordings, etc. I'll make sure levels are comparable for both amps and turn off my subs. Everything will be plugged directly into the wall and all of my current year is fully broken in. I'll also leave the crown plugged in overnight before doing any critical listening. It's probably not necessary but I'll do it anyway.

Roscoe, I'll contact you offline to see if you want to swing by and give your opinion or if you want to hear the crown on your system. It's very lightweight and easy to move around.

Thanks

Jack
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: cab on 13 Nov 2014, 01:39 pm
You forgot to mention the need for that trick power cord/conditioning/fuse which will all raise the Crown to such heights that you may get a nose bleed just thinking about it....
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: OzarkTom on 13 Nov 2014, 01:48 pm
I am sure Tomy2's goal of this amp tour is not to see how it stacks up to the Ncores, he is being generous to see how you like these Crown amps. I am sure if you already have decided the Crown is not worthy, it won't matter how you hook the amp up. In your mind, the Ncores stomps this Crown amp that sells for $325, Ncores $1900.

I just know what works the best at my house with the dirty AC. :D
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: cab on 13 Nov 2014, 01:55 pm


I just know what works the best at my house with the dirty AC. :D

Really? Or are you taking your own advice and lying? :roll:
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: guest61169 on 13 Nov 2014, 02:04 pm
Zak,
I look forward to your comments. If the Crown comes up short, get ready to explain:

- why you chose not to cryo treat the Crown...even though there is no proof this is safe or improves the performance in any way.

- why you didn't have thousands of hours break in on the Crown. If it doesn't sound good, no matter how many hours you have used it, the reason it came up short is because it needs a couple hundred more hours to fully break in.

-  why you didn't use those magic wood pucks (and cushy pads underneath for bonus points). The Crown cognoscenti can't live without their magic pucks and I can imagine people attributing the outcome of your evaluation to the use of these pucks, or lack thereof.



Don't forget to use balanced inputs, Speakon outputs, a preamp with pro level gain and low output impedance, proper gain matching and yes...proper feet under the amp instead of just resting the bare chassis flat on a concrete floor, plugged directly into the wall with all DSP filters disabled, in a properly treated listening room with immaculate source material and a great set of ears!   Also, factor in that some people prefer the second amp in a level-matched comparison... just because it's not the first one!    :D A lot of variables here, this might be a long tour!

P.S. Don't forget to include a pic of the listening room and list of associated equipment.   I've seen hundreds of user system pics and it is rare to find a room properly set up.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: playntheblues on 13 Nov 2014, 03:05 pm
OK, you guys have my attention  :o
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Tomy2Tone on 13 Nov 2014, 03:14 pm
I am sure Tomy2's goal of this amp tour is not to see how it stacks up to the Ncores, he is being generous to see how you like these Crown amps.

Yep, was just curious what people think of this $300 amp compared to what they have now. I'm not expecting this amp to be better than an Ncore or any other amp for that matter. Would be interesting to see how close this amp competes with highly regarded amps such as the Ncores and other class d as well as class a/b. Ozarktom and DaveC113 have given the crown some nice comments, what say you?

And remember, it's just a pro amp...dats all!
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: mr_bill on 13 Nov 2014, 03:40 pm
Zak,
I look forward to your comments. If the Crown comes up short, get ready to explain:

- why you chose not to cryo treat the Crown...even though there is no proof this is safe or improves the performance in any way.

- why you didn't have thousands of hours break in on the Crown. If it doesn't sound good, no matter how many hours you have used it, the reason it came up short is because it needs a couple hundred more hours to fully break in.

-  why you didn't use those magic wood pucks (and cushy pads underneath for bonus points). The Crown cognoscenti can't live without their magic pucks and I can imagine people attributing the outcome of your evaluation to the use of these pucks, or lack thereof.

I'm looking forward to comparing the Crown to the NCore and will post my honest opinion. If I feel extra ambitious I'll even compare it to the older Crown K1 currently powering my subs. That will be a PITA because I'll have to mess with the level of the subs and everything is dialed in perfectly at the moment.

My intention is to play some of my favorite tracks, ones I'm very familiar with, jazz, rock, lots of vocals, some good recordings, etc. I'll make sure levels are comparable for both amps and turn off my subs. Everything will be plugged directly into the wall and all of my current year is fully broken in. I'll also leave the crown plugged in overnight before doing any critical listening. It's probably not necessary but I'll do it anyway.

Roscoe, I'll contact you offline to see if you want to swing by and give your opinion or if you want to hear the crown on your system. It's very lightweight and easy to move around.

Thanks

Jack

Go Jack!
The voice of reality................ and humor too.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: rodge827 on 13 Nov 2014, 05:03 pm
Which one is which?  :scratch:

Depends on your perspective.  :green:

The Ncores have a beautiful machined aluminum faceplate and the Crowns look kinda eh'.
Then of course there is the sound quality and the cost difference.
To each his own ears! :|

Chris
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: rodge827 on 13 Nov 2014, 05:12 pm
Really? Or are you taking your own advice and lying? :roll:

Who peed in your Corn Flakes?

Its only audio and not the answer to world hunger, world peace, why eye buggers happen...

Tom is an honest guy and has nothing to gain from his opinions. Fact is he is a very generous audio dude and shares what he knows!

What do you have to offer other than insults?

Better solutions for your arguments?

Lighten up!  :D
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: mresseguie on 13 Nov 2014, 05:28 pm
Hi, Tomy2Tone.

I'd like to thank you for organizing this tour (even though I'm not participating). I don't own either the Ncores or the Crown amps, but I've certainly read a lot about class D amps. It would be great to know what people's impressions are of the Crowns especially since they cost so little.

Have fun, folks!

Michael
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: jackman on 13 Nov 2014, 08:09 pm
I am sure Tomy2's goal of this amp tour is not to see how it stacks up to the Ncores, he is being generous to see how you like these Crown amps. I am sure if you already have decided the Crown is not worthy, it won't matter how you hook the amp up. In your mind, the Ncores stomps this Crown amp that sells for $325, Ncores $1900.

I just know what works the best at my house with the dirty AC. :D

Tommy2's goal is to see how the amp stacks up against the nCore.  That's why he is sending it to me.  If my mind was made up, why would I waste time messing with an amp/disconnecting wires, etc.?  Your negative opinion of the NCore is pretty well documented and everyone is entitled to an opinion.  In my system, the nCore sounds very good, excellent, IMO.  If the Crown is 80% as good as the nCore, I will buy one. If it's as good as the nCore, I'll do the same and sell my nCore.

Quote
Zak, no matter what, even if you have to lie, make sure you say that the Ncores sounds the best and by a huge margin. And that goes for all of the Ncore owners on this tour. We don't want any riots to start here. :nono:

People are going to believe what they are going to believe. I know your comment was directed towards Zak but people on this site know that I'm not afraid to piss people off.  I started the "nCore Kook-Aid Drinker" thread and took a lot of heat from nCore fans.  In the end, I auditioned the amp and thought it sounded great so I bought one for my system.  If the Crown leads me to do the same thing, and my actions piss people off...good!   :thumb:

Lastly, Tommy2Tone, my thanks to you for letting me hear your amp.  I'll get it to the next guy and make sure it is well cared for, etc.  I've been so busy lately with work, it will be a good distraction.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: OzarkTom on 13 Nov 2014, 09:15 pm
Tommy2's goal is to see how the amp stacks up against the nCore.  That's why he is sending it to me.  If my mind was made up, why would I waste time messing with an amp/disconnecting wires, etc.?  Your negative opinion of the NCore is pretty well documented and everyone is entitled to an opinion.  In my system, the nCore sounds very good, excellent, IMO.  If the Crown is 80% as good as the nCore, I will buy one. If it's as good as the nCore, I'll do the same and sell my

I am sorry if you thought I was directing this to you, my words is not the best at times. I meant this as an overall comment to any of the Ncore owners.

But one of the major problems of the Ncores at my place was the brightness and edginess. Triode Pete might have  given me the answer today. Those power cords that was sent with the tour amps were bright.  They were made of silver wire. I started to change the power cords, but I only had one of the same to try.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: ZAKski288 on 13 Nov 2014, 10:46 pm
Zak, no matter what, even if you have to lie, make sure you say that the Ncores sounds the best and by a huge margin. And that goes for all of the Ncore owners on this tour. We don't want any riots to start here. :nono:
OzarkTom,  You know I win either way, Because I'm not getting rid of either amp. I picked out the playlist to compare the two, and hopeful get some time to listen to over the weekend.
The second Crown I move down to my work area and have been listening to a good part of the day. 626R's sitting on top of 80's circa Fried 10" transmision line Bass cabinets . WOW  they sound pretty incredible even at  lower volume then I listen to in my 2 channel.  ZAK
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: OzarkTom on 13 Nov 2014, 11:14 pm
There is another casualty in the Job amp camp. My buddy Rex went ahead and bought a 1500. He likes it so much that he is going to sell his Job. He is also selling his Job pre. The next item he is ordering is The Vinnie Rossi LIO this week and using it as a pre. Maybe he would send that LIO on an AC tour? :D
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: jackman on 13 Nov 2014, 11:28 pm
Go Jack!
The voice of reality................ and humor too.

Thanks Bill!  I'm always smiling when I write this stuff.  Sometimes I'll even giggle.   :thumb:
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: jackman on 13 Nov 2014, 11:39 pm
I am sorry if you thought I was directing this to you, my words is not the best at times. I meant this as an overall comment to any of the Ncore owners.

But one of the major problems of the Ncores at my place was the brightness and edginess. Triode Pete might have  given me the answer today. Those power cords that was sent with the tour amps were bright.  They were made of silver wire. I started to change the power cords, but I only had one of the same to try.

No problem Ozark.  I was not trying to be mean and appreciate your contribution to the thread. 
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Tomy2Tone on 14 Nov 2014, 01:32 am
OzarkTom,  You know I win either way, Because I'm not getting rid of either amp. I picked out the playlist to compare the two, and hopeful get some time to listen to over the weekend.
The second Crown I move down to my work area and have been listening to a good part of the day. 626R's sitting on top of 80's circa Fried 10" transmision line Bass cabinets . WOW  they sound pretty incredible even at  lower volume then I listen to in my 2 channel.  ZAK

Nice ZAKski288!

If you have two crown 1500's you should try running them in bridge mono and see what you think. That's what I'm doing now and I think they're a little better in that configuration. Look forward to hearing more from you!
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Tomy2Tone on 14 Nov 2014, 01:47 am
I am sorry if you thought I was directing this to you, my words is not the best at times. I meant this as an overall comment to any of the Ncore owners

No problem Ozark.  I was not trying to be mean and appreciate your contribution to the thread. 

 :beer:

If I knew it was going to be this warm and fuzzy I would of sent some crown royal with that crown!

No seriously,  I believe as I type this the eagle has landed in the state of Illinois so Jackman should hopefully be receiving the amp tomorrow. I did throw some of those cedar blocks in with it just for shits and giggles so it's up to you if you want to use them or not. I use Herbies tender feet under mine with some weight on top and think the combo works great.

Anyway, thanks to everybody who's chimed in so far and let's see what happens next!


Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: OzarkTom on 14 Nov 2014, 01:57 am
Zak should also try his Crown amp with his main speakers while using the high pass crossover, trying different settings according to his subs and the other Crown. That might make a bigger difference than running them in monos. One amp I tried that with had an improvement at least 20%.

Jack, if you have time, you can try that also.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: dlaloum on 14 Nov 2014, 02:04 am
I run a pair of XLS2500's into my Gallo's biamped, using the onboard crossovers, one runs the woofers 2nd voice coil (which takes the low end down to 24Hz) and the other runs the main speaker input (high passed at 100Hz).

I've been really happy with the results, and have not had time to mess with the plethora of possible permutations and combinations...

1) Run them as a pair of monoblocks, running the speakers full range. I am not convinced that they will do better running a 1ohm load... - 2ohm with a bridged amp becomes 1ohm... thats tricky for ANY amp... still they are pretty muscular and I should try it some time.
2) I can run the speakers full range from one amp and the 2nd voice coil power by the 2nd amp (xover somewhere between 125Hz and 60Hz
3) Vary the crossover point and levels in the current config (I did do some FFT analysis using a calibrated mic to set the current settings - but I am sure it could do with some further tuning - just takes ages....)

these beasts are incredibly flexible

Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: ZAKski288 on 14 Nov 2014, 02:19 am
Nice ZAKski288!

If you have two crown 1500's you should try running them in bridge mono and see what you think. That's what I'm doing now and I think they're a little better in that configuration. Look forward to hearing more from you!
Thanks Tomy2Tone, I think I'm going to Bi Amp my speakers in stereo mode  ( there set up with 2 set of binding post )  I also can try them in bridged mono mode . ZAK
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Tomy2Tone on 14 Nov 2014, 02:33 am
Thanks Tomy2Tone, I think I'm going to Bi Amp my speakers in stereo mode  ( there set up with 2 set of binding post )  I also can try them in bridged mono mode . ZAK

Sounds good!

I'm not too familiar with VMPS speakers so I tried looking for their website but could not find one. Are they still around?

Ozarktom's recommendation sounds intriguing as well.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: ZAKski288 on 14 Nov 2014, 03:11 am
Zak should also try his Crown amp with his main speakers while using the high pass crossover, trying different settings according to his subs and the other Crown. That might make a bigger difference than running them in monos. One amp I tried that with had an improvement at least 20%.

Jack, if you have time, you can try that also.
Not sure exactly how to hook up (high pass crossover) What my set up is for testing amps : tower speakers , they can be  bi-wired,  or bi-amped,  no extra subwoofers will be used
 
Tomy2   VMPS are no longer in business  :(
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: rodge827 on 14 Nov 2014, 12:50 pm
If any of us are having trouble driving our XLS amp because of low output gain from a preamp, source, or receiver. Home Theater Direct makes an adjustable line level gain boost ($35.00) up to +12db, and it uses 12v dc for power.

http://www.htd.com/Products/line-level-gain-boosters/LGB-1

Chris
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Tomy2Tone on 14 Nov 2014, 02:58 pm
Oh snap!  Just noticed ZAKski288 has a new avatar, you trying to tell us something?  :D

Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: ZAKski288 on 14 Nov 2014, 04:02 pm
Oh snap!  Just noticed ZAKski288 has a new avatar, you trying to tell us something?  :D
Oh, No  :nono: the avatar will have no influence on my decision. I've owned Crown equipment since the 80's. I still use a Crown straight line two preamp
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Tomy2Tone on 14 Nov 2014, 04:10 pm
Oh, No  :nono: the avatar will have no influence on my decision. I've owned Crown equipment since the 80's. I still use a Crown straight line two preamp

I know, I was joking with ya.  :)
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: randytsuch on 14 Nov 2014, 04:30 pm
If any of us are having trouble driving our XLS amp because of low output gain from a preamp, source, or receiver. Home Theater Direct makes an adjustable line level gain boost ($35.00) up to +12db, and it uses 12v dc for power.

http://www.htd.com/Products/line-level-gain-boosters/LGB-1

Chris

Thanks for the link Chris.
I use an older crown, the XLS202 for a sub amp, and was looking for a little more gain.  I might give this a go.
For the price, it is likely a switching PS and a simple op amp circuit, but for my application it should be fine.


I don't remember if I posted  this in the other thread, but here's a FYI for you guys.

My 202 was kind of noisy, the fan is too loud for me in the stock amp.

I was thinking of replacing the fan, but I came across some info at diyaudio where a guy just added a power resistor to slow the fan down.

So I installed a 150ohm, 10 watt resistor that I had in my spare parts drawer, and while it still is audible, once the music starts you can't hear fan noise any more.  10 watts is probably overkill too, but I haven't bothered to figure out how large I really need, and it's what I had anyway.

I may try a 250 ohm resistor, and see how that works.  I'm just using this as a sub amp, and it barely gets warm, so I don't expect any problems. 

Obviously would void your warranty if performed on a newish XLS amp.

Randy


Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Tomy2Tone on 14 Nov 2014, 04:52 pm
I'm wondering if anybody will notice the fan on the XLS. When I had just one running in stereo for a full range setup I never really knew the fan was even on.

Now that I have two running bridge mono, the only time I notice the fans is when it's late at night and I turn the volume all the way down on the preamp. So they do make noise,when their both running at the same time but under normal circumstances with music playing its a non issue for me.

Others may be more sensitive than me though. I did open one and disconnected the fan and noticed after a while the top was warm to the touch and the led lights on the front were lit up red which according to the manual means either its clipping or thermal compression is beginning. So the fans are doing their job.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: jackman on 14 Nov 2014, 04:59 pm
Zak should also try his Crown amp with his main speakers while using the high pass crossover, trying different settings according to his subs and the other Crown. That might make a bigger difference than running them in monos. One amp I tried that with had an improvement at least 20%.

Jack, if you have time, you can try that also.

I'll do my best to try it.  Hopefully the Crown is idiot-proof because it's going to have to be for me.  My system has the nCore on the monitors with external passive xovers, running full range.  Everything is measured with an Omnimic and the subs are active DCX2496, powered by a Crown K1.  The Crown runs silent and has no fan.  It rarely gets above warm unless I REALLY push system at high levels with bass heavy music.  I've never come close to thermal overload. 

For the evaluation, I'm going to run my speakers directly with the new Crown and turn off the subs.  I'll try it with the subs as well and match levels.  Not sure if I will test versus the K1 on the monitors but I already know that solution does not sound as good as the nCOre.  Everything is plugged into the wall directly, my power is very clean here and the stereo is on its own circuit so there is no issue with light dimmers or cable boxes, etc. 

If the high pass high pass filter is easy to use, I'll give it a shot.  I try to use as little processing as possible, even with my sub, I try to use as little active EQ as possible.

Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: werd on 14 Nov 2014, 05:02 pm
I'm wondering if anybody will notice the fan on the XLS. When I had just one running in stereo for a full range setup I never really knew the fan was even on.

Now that I have two running bridge mono, the only time I notice the fans is when it's late at night and I turn the volume all the way down on the preamp. So they do make noise,when their both running at the same time but under normal circumstances with music playing its a non issue for me.

Others may be more sensitive than me though. I did open one and disconnected the fan and noticed after a while the top was warm to the touch and the led lights on the front were lit up red which according to the manual means either its clipping or thermal compression is beginning. So the fans are doing their job.

Try cutting air supply holes on the top like on a regular amplifier. I would want to disconnect the fan but you need more ventilation. Or take the top right off
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Tomy2Tone on 14 Nov 2014, 05:26 pm
Try cutting air supply holes on the top like on a regular amplifier. I would want to disconnect the fan but you need more ventilation. Or take the top right off

That's an idea! But like I said the fan noise to me is not much of an issue, but cutting some holes on top would be pretty easy to to do to find out if it works.

I had some carpenters I know get me some two inch maples blocks to put under each XLS 1500 I have and at first thought it sounded too dead. But after some adjustments it's sounding better than ever.

The 3d, detailed, clear as day presentation is really impressive. And like ZAKski288 mentioned before the performance at low volume levels is great as well with drums still having that kick and punch while not losing any detail in the rest of the instruments and vocals.

Hey DaveC113, can you describe you're setup again and what SET you were comparing the crown to?  I'm going to assume you were using your cables with crown, which is what I'm doing. The ZenWave speaker cables and interconnects seem like a perfect match with the crown. I look forward to firing up the system everyday now.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: werd on 14 Nov 2014, 05:28 pm
That's an idea! But like I said the fan noise to me is not much of an issue, but cutting some holes on top would be pretty easy to to do to find out if it works.

I had some carpenters I know get me some two inch maples blocks to put under each XLS 1500 I have and at first thought it sounded too dead. But after some adjustments it's sounding better than ever.

The 3d, detailed, clear as day presentation is really impressive. And like ZAKski288 mentioned before the performance at low volume levels is great as well with drums still having that kick and punch while not losing any detail in the rest of the instruments and vocals.

Hey DaveC113, can you describe you're setup again and what SET you were comparing the crown to?  I'm going to assume you were using your cables with crown, which is what I'm doing. The ZenWave speaker cables and interconnects seem like a perfect match with the crown. I look forward to firing up the system everyday now.

Try with the lid off first. With the lid off and you still see red, cutting holes will be pointless.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: ZAKski288 on 14 Nov 2014, 05:48 pm
 I know I wanted to upgrade my audio rack. There is a guy close that is selling old bowling lane sections, 2 1/2" thick maple or yellow pine. I'm going to have to check it out.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Tomy2Tone on 14 Nov 2014, 05:55 pm
I know I wanted to upgrade my audio rack. There is a guy close that is selling old bowling lane sections, 2 1/2" thick maple or yellow pine. I'm going to have to check it out.

I wasn't looking for any real marked improvement by going 2" maple but the opportunity was there to mimic what Mapleshade sells on their webpage for much less.

And really I wanted to go mono in the first place so I didn't have to have long cables to run from pre to amp to speaker. So in the end it just worked out!
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: randytsuch on 14 Nov 2014, 06:33 pm
Try with the lid off first. With the lid off and you still see red, cutting holes will be pointless.

I know if it was me cutting holes in the top would be the last resort.

My amp has soldered wires between the fan and mainboard, no connectors, so I had to splice into the wires to add a resistor.

If you have a connection, you could make an adapter and not have to splice, so warranty becomes a non issue.

Randy
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Folsom on 14 Nov 2014, 06:35 pm
What size are the fans?

http://www.frozencpu.com/cat/l2/g36/c437/list/p1/Fans-12_Volt_Fans_by_dB.html
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: rodge827 on 14 Nov 2014, 07:29 pm
Try with the lid off first. With the lid off and you still see red, cutting holes will be pointless.

This will be a real dumb question but I have to ask.

Will taking the top off of gear and defeating the fan be the same as leaving the top on and fan running?

I have a couple of Tripp Lite double conversion UPS's that make a lot of fan noise and taking the top off is a very attractive option for me. I have them in another room and run a Romex "extension cord" to an outlet that I plug my gear into. I would like to put them closer to the gear they are protecting.

Chris

Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: rodge827 on 14 Nov 2014, 07:32 pm
Another question,

In an earlier thread it was written that the XLS amps have their own internal power conditioning.

Does this make using a power conditioner obsolete with the XLS's?

Can they be plugged directly into the wall and sound the same as if additional conditioning were used?

Chris
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: randytsuch on 14 Nov 2014, 07:38 pm
This will be a real dumb question but I have to ask.

Will taking the top off of gear and defeating the fan be the same as leaving the top on and fan running?

I have a couple of Tripp Lite double conversion UPS's that make a lot of fan noise and taking the top off is a very attractive option for me. I have them in another room and run a Romex "extension cord" to an outlet that I plug my gear into. I would like to put them closer to the gear they are protecting.

Chris

Short answer no.  In my older crown, the fans are blowing across the heatsinks.  They even have some cardboard in them to help direct the airflow across the heatsinks.

Taking off the cover will help cool things off, but its not the same as blowing air across the hot parts.

EDIT:
But I should add it depends on your unit.  It's easy enough to try, and see what happens.  But I think you'll probably have better luck applying the things silent PC guys use, quiet fans, and then undervolting the fans so it runs slower and quieter.

Salis
The crown (mine and the new ones) are 3.5 inches tall, so the fans are likely to be 80mm fans.

And that's one of the problems.  It's much easier to find quiet 120mm fans.

FYI, there are also fan controllers made for PC applications that let you control the speed of the fan.  Not sure if they would work in the crown or not.

Randy
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: OzarkTom on 14 Nov 2014, 07:42 pm
Another question,

In an earlier thread it was written that the XLS amps have their own internal power conditioning.

Does this make using a power conditioner obsolete with the XLS's?

Can they be plugged directly into the wall and sound the same as if additional conditioning were used?

Chris

I plug mine directly in the wall, even with my bad AC, very smooth souunding. Even at whisper volume, I never hear any fan noise. They probably never come on at those volumes.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: srb on 14 Nov 2014, 07:49 pm
Will taking the top off of gear and defeating the fan be the same as leaving the top on and fan running?

It may be adequate to prevent overheating, but forced air cooling usually can reduce the temperature much further than passive convection cooling.  Convection cooling does work better if there are slots or holes in the bottom of the chassis.

A thermometer might help you make a decision on the TrippLite.  I had looked into some super convenient point and shoot IR thermometers, but the consensus I get is that budget ones are often very inaccurate and can produce varying readings with multiple captures.  While feeling for temperatures with the hand may work for covers and external heat sinks, it's not exactly a safe practice to monitor internal parts and assemblies on live 120V/240V equipment.

From a safety standpoint, I don't like to have exposed chassis (cover removed) where high voltages exist.

Steve
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: rodge827 on 14 Nov 2014, 08:02 pm
Thanks gents, I guess it 's a try and see proposition. I don't have an XLS as of yet, and I'm waiting on the tour amp to get here when Jackman is done with his evaluations. I have been trying to pressure this guy on CL to break up his gear package (no not what some of you are thinking..gutter minds :lol:) and buy a used one on the cheap. So far no luck!

Having open gear is not an issue for me. My audio room stays locked and my dog doesn't like to climb the stairs. S \o no worries there.

Chris 
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Russell Dawkins on 14 Nov 2014, 08:03 pm
I'm wondering if anybody will notice the fan on the XLS. When I had just one running in stereo for a full range setup I never really knew the fan was even on.

Now that I have two running bridge mono, the only time I notice the fans is when it's late at night and I turn the volume all the way down on the preamp. So they do make noise,when their both running at the same time but under normal circumstances with music playing its a non issue for me.

Others may be more sensitive than me though. I did open one and disconnected the fan and noticed after a while the top was warm to the touch and the led lights on the front were lit up red which according to the manual means either its clipping or thermal compression is beginning. So the fans are doing their job.

I'm surprised to read this, having read earlier that a user never had the fan come on at all, even under hard use.

I would be cautious about disconnecting the fan or thinking taking the top off would be a valid solution because, as was mentioned, there is often cardboard or plastic ducting to guide airflow exactly where it is needed and convection cooling might not be enough.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: werd on 14 Nov 2014, 08:06 pm
This will be a real dumb question but I have to ask.

Will taking the top off of gear and defeating the fan be the same as leaving the top on and fan running?

I have a couple of Tripp Lite double conversion UPS's that make a lot of fan noise and taking the top off is a very attractive option for me. I have them in another room and run a Romex "extension cord" to an outlet that I plug my gear into. I would like to put them closer to the gear they are protecting.

Chris

The fans are there because there is no convection cooling. An amp this size in class D shouldn't over heat with the top off and no fans. They wanna use more rugged road assembly so they give you a solid chassis is my guess.

For fanless  convection cooling 
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Russell Dawkins on 14 Nov 2014, 08:10 pm
If any of us are having trouble driving our XLS amp because of low output gain from a preamp, source, or receiver. Home Theater Direct makes an adjustable line level gain boost ($35.00) up to +12db, and it uses 12v dc for power.

http://www.htd.com/Products/line-level-gain-boosters/LGB-1

Chris
It's worth mentioning that Crown's specs on the amps mention that 1.4 v will drive the amps to full output. The typical output from a CD player is 2 volt on peaks (0 dB), so getting adequate level should not be a problem.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Tomy2Tone on 14 Nov 2014, 08:13 pm
I'm surprised to read this, having read earlier that a user never had the fan come on at all, even under hard use.

My only guess is that the fans are that quiet you don't think they're on.  :dunno:

During the day I have to get on the floor and put my ear right up to the crown to hear that the fan is indeed on. So to me it's a non issue.

This is the first class d amp I've used that has a fan so I wanted to see if disconnecting it had any effect. Both amps I have now have the fan connected.

The link Salis Audio provided shows some reasonably priced fans but not sure if it's needed, for me at least.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: jackman on 14 Nov 2014, 08:14 pm
I think it depends on the efficiency and load of your speakers.  If the amp is not working hard, it might stay cool enough to not require the fan.  My speakers are relatively efficient and a 4ohm load.  Hopefully they will play nice with the Crown.  It should be here today, when I get home from work.  I leave the nCOre on all the time and it stays very cool, even when pushed hard.  Same with the K1, that thing never gets warmer than "barely" warm. 
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: werd on 14 Nov 2014, 08:16 pm
Unless there are output transistors under the heat sinks like on the Yorkville. Then you might be stuck using the fans for forced air direction
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Tomy2Tone on 14 Nov 2014, 08:16 pm
I think it depends on the efficiency and load of your speakers.  If the amp is not working hard, it might stay cool enough to not require the fan.  My speakers are relatively efficient and a 4ohm load.  Hopefully they will play nice with the Crown.  It should be here today, when I get home from work.  I leave the nCOre on all the time and it stays very cool, even when pushed hard.  Same with the K1, that thing never gets warmer than "barely" warm. 

I just checked fedex tracking and it said it was left at your door, your neighbors don't follow AC do they?  :?
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: jackman on 14 Nov 2014, 08:25 pm
Nope, but I'm at the office getting ready to fight Chicago traffic and pick up the amp.  It's probably in a stack of boxes my wife orders from Amazon on a daily basis...don't tell her I said that. :thumb:
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: ZAKski288 on 14 Nov 2014, 08:29 pm
Come on Guys. Who cares about the fan. If you can hear the fan, then you are not using the amp properly. Turn up the volume and enjoy :lol: :lol: :lol:
I really never even notice it.  ZAK
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Tomy2Tone on 14 Nov 2014, 08:30 pm
Come on Guys. Who cares about the fan. If you can hear the fan, then you are not using the amp properly. Turn up the volume and enjoy :lol: :lol: :lol:
I really never even notice it.  ZAK

That's the spirit!  :thumb:
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: a.wayne on 14 Nov 2014, 08:56 pm
Crown is in the house, Predictions ........  8)
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: ZAKski288 on 14 Nov 2014, 09:08 pm
I just measured the dB's of the fan with an app on my Ipod .  Fan noise  60 dB's max.   I had to check with a flashlight to see if was running, it really is pretty quite.  ZAK
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: dlaloum on 14 Nov 2014, 09:09 pm
I have never had the fans turn on, even when driving it hard - but I am using a more powerful XLS2500 - so even driven hard it should be idling...
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: steve f on 14 Nov 2014, 09:45 pm
Jackman, It's nice to know I'm not the Lone Ranger when it comes to wives and Amazon.  I have a tough time trying to get the excess cardboard in my recycling bin.

Guys, I did break down and order a xls 1500 today. I figure if I don't like it, I know it will make a great sub amp.   :thumb:
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Tomy2Tone on 14 Nov 2014, 09:58 pm
Jackman, It's nice to know I'm not the Lone Ranger when it comes to wives and Amazon.  I have a tough time trying to get the excess cardboard in my recycling bin.

Guys, I did break down and order a xls 1500 today. I figure if I don't like it, I know it will make a great sub amp.   :thumb:

Nice steve f!

Please let us know what you think when you get the chance to fiddle around with it.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Brad on 14 Nov 2014, 11:07 pm
Jackman, It's nice to know I'm not the Lone Ranger when it comes to wives and Amazon.  I have a tough time trying to get the excess cardboard in my recycling bin.

Guys, I did break down and order a xls 1500 today. I figure if I don't like it, I know it will make a great sub amp.   :thumb:

Steve F - it IS a terrific sub amp. 
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: zapper7 on 14 Nov 2014, 11:37 pm
Topless....

I have 2 Class D amps that were shutting down for short periods of time when pushed hard due to overheating. I cut holes in the bottom and went topless with great success. I know it's not meant to have a fan but every little bit seems to count when cooling it appears.

Funny thing is I have 2 Mackie amps running my subs and the fans are on all the time, from start up to shut down. Watching movies and music at volumes eliminates the fan noise anyway.

Looking forward to being the caboose (so Far) on the tour. I plan on running it with the top sections of my towers against the DAC Cherry and Class D amps, on the bottom sections of the towers against the Class D amps, and my subs against the Mackies.

Fun fun....
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Tomy2Tone on 15 Nov 2014, 12:47 am
Looking forward to being the caboose (so Far) on the tour. I plan on running it with the top sections of my towers against the DAC Cherry and Class D amps, on the bottom sections of the towers against the Class D amps, and my subs against the Mackies.

Fun fun....

Wow zapper7, you're going to need a journal with all that switching around.  :D
Look forward to how the crown stacks up to the Cherry.

Here's an update on the tour list for everybody...

Jackman/Roscoeiii- Chicago

rodge827- Jersey

mjosef- Brooklyn

SteveFord- PA

jtsnead- MD

Freo-1- MA

zapper7- NV

Peter J- ID

S Clark- TX


Pm me if you want to be added.

Carry on chaps!  :D
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: jk@home on 15 Nov 2014, 01:26 am
For the folks here who haven't had the chance to check out this amp yet and are worried about fan noise...don't. It is a non-issue. You literally have to put your ear up to the rear fan chassis opening to hear and feel it.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Tomy2Tone on 15 Nov 2014, 02:51 pm
Crown is in the house, Predictions ........  8)

My only prediction for Jackman is the obvious higher noise floor the crown will have over the ncores. Whether that's a big deal to him I don't know.

But I do fully expect Jackman to pull no punches, if it sucks say it sucks, if it compares then how? I'm looking forward to his honesty.

Everybody's system is different so the fact that you can adjust the gain on the fly is nice. It's already in stereo bypass mode so there's no messing with the menu for running it with full range speakers. I put the manual in with it as well so if you do plan on using the high pass or low pass and crossover modes it's there for reference.

Been noticing the weather back there ( I'm in AZ ) so I hope there's no problems with shipping from one participant to another.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Bemopti123 on 15 Nov 2014, 03:24 pm
I would like to know what speakers are members planning to use or are running with this Crown?  I own a XTi 2002 which I bought for bi-triamping.  I wanted to play with the DSP and other onboard menus but that for the domain of people with Windows PCs....a no no for a Mac person. 
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: DaveC113 on 15 Nov 2014, 03:33 pm
Hey DaveC113, can you describe you're setup again and what SET you were comparing the crown to?

Sure, Source is a Sony HAP-Z1ES, Pre is an Aikido 6SN7 preamp, Omega Super 3 XRS, 10" Adire Audio Sub, SurgeX power, ZenWave Cables throughout.

I have two amps now, I got a Odyssey Stratos (thanks ZLS!)... it sounds great but the gain is way too high, I will see if I can call Klaus and get some direction for lowering it, but it might need a zero gain pre. My SET is an EL34 running in triode mode and with no driver section, the Aikido provides all the gain needed and has no problem driving the EL34s directly. It uses fairly high end parts, it has no coupling caps, Clarity TC PS caps (no electrolytics), 5AR4 Rectifier, Mills + Riken resistors, James OPTs, gold plated pure copper RCA jacks and binding posts, Furutech IEC w/circuit breaker... no fuse.

The Crown is not better than either the SET or the Odyssey, but it is very close... vs the SET the Crown is better on some kinds of music and also at higher volumes, the SET's midrange is better for vocals and acoustic music. Both the Stratos and Crown have plenty of power for my speakers, which are an easy load so they are both the same there, the presentation is different in subtle ways and I could see someone preferring one or the other just due to personal preference. I need to get the gain structure sorted with the Odyssey, right now it's too noisy with a 20 dB gain preamp driving it, the volume with my stepped attenuators is low to moderate at it's lowest setting, which is around -60 dB so the adjustment range I have has been exceeded. All three are very good amps but the Crown stands out for being so much less expensive than the other two... the SET amp would take over $1k just in parts to assemble, probably closer to $1.5k including chassis, and the Odyssey is close to $2k with it's upgrades. Both can also be seen as especially good values as well, the SET sounds amazing and the Odyssey is a huge over-achiever at it's price as well.

Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: OzarkTom on 15 Nov 2014, 03:45 pm
Crown is in the house, Predictions ........  8)

My prediction is a very close race. No matter which amp wins, it will be less than 10%, probably closer to 5% difference. I am no DIY'er, so new, the Ncores would cost me $1900 vs. $325 for the Crown. I have seen several used Ncores go for $1200 here on AC and Audiogon the past few months, the last 2 1500's I bought were for $135 each. :D
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: zapper7 on 15 Nov 2014, 03:52 pm
I wish I could get a used XLS, I would take 1500 - 2500, any one, but nothing in my market or close to me so far :(
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Tomy2Tone on 15 Nov 2014, 05:51 pm
I would like to know what speakers are members planning to use or are running with this Crown?

I think that would be nice to know as well as it would give somewhat of a baseline. Ozarktom, DaveC113 and myself have different speaker designs and efficiency yet we all seem to like the crown amp.

I have Salk Songtowers with the Hiquphon dome tweeter that are 4ohm with about 88db sensitivity, which is not a hard load to drive and I think it sounds pretty darn good.

Sure, Source is a Sony HAP-Z1ES, Pre is an Aikido 6SN7 preamp, Omega Super 3 XRS, 10" Adire Audio Sub, SurgeX power, ZenWave Cables throughout.

The Crown is not better than either the SET or the Odyssey, but it is very close... 

This is what intrigues me about the crown. I guess I'm just curious if people do find it close to what they got now can they be happy with either amp? I know its all relative to people's expectations and tastes and what they look for in a particular sound but if something was to happen to their current amp would they be content to go on with the crown xls and not miss anything?

I hope to listen to many more amps along the way so this is just one chapter in my audio hobby life.  :)
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: a.wayne on 15 Nov 2014, 08:33 pm
Wheres Jack, did the Crown fall on him or is he just floored ..... :lol:
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: ZAKski288 on 15 Nov 2014, 08:36 pm
Crown XLS1500  vs. Ncore. Everything was as equal as possible , used the same power cords, interconnects (RCA's), speaker wires (2)8 ga. braided with jumpers between the two set of binding post, RM40 speakers 90 dB , same Playlist, NO subwoofers . Well I started with the Crown XLS1500, listened about 1 1/2 hrs.  Sound was incredible, good imaging, good bass, plenty of power , with the music paused my speakers had low hum (ear close to speaker). Moving on to the Ncore's. Just so you know I planned to build a pair and these came up for sale on Audio Circles, built by an AC member. I know you want to know the outcome. So with that said, The Ncore sound awsome, They sound similar except the Ncores have a larger range top to bottom,Its not more bass or higher highs, maybe it depth, warmer sound. also with music paused they are dead quite. Its hard to explain, but they do sound different. I'm just someone
that enjoys music and really have learned a lot being part of Audio Circles. Many great people willing to help and explain things, and this thread has been
entertaining for time to time.  My second system will definitely be powered by the Crown. We have a winner  Ncore  :thumb:
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=108654)
 
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: ZAKski288 on 15 Nov 2014, 08:40 pm
20 song playlist used above
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: OzarkTom on 15 Nov 2014, 08:47 pm
Zak, do you feel the Ncores  are 5-10% better or more?
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: ZAKski288 on 15 Nov 2014, 08:54 pm
Yes Ozark, In my system which I still need to do a couple things.  Its pretty close 5%-10%  difference. I would be happy with either amp.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: OzarkTom on 15 Nov 2014, 09:06 pm
Yes Ozark, In my system which I still need to do a couple things.  Its pretty close 5%-10%  difference. I would be happy with either amp.

That is quite a testimony for the Crown, since it is 4.5 years old in design and 6 times less money.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Tomy2Tone on 15 Nov 2014, 09:08 pm
Yes Ozark, In my system which I still need to do a couple things.  Its pretty close 5%-10%  difference. I would be happy with either amp.


Wow, excellent ZAKski288!

Would you say they both have the same overall tone? Sounds like in your system it's just the stage depth on the Ncore is a little better.

I like that you used a variety of different music in your playlist! Black Eyed Peas to AC/DC  :D

Great job and thanks for taking the time!
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: a.wayne on 15 Nov 2014, 09:10 pm
The differences you described is way more than 5-10% to me , it may not justify 3 times the cost to some , but if you are serious about hi-fi , no way to live with the lesser amplifier ....

NCore - 1
Crown - 0
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Tomy2Tone on 15 Nov 2014, 09:20 pm
NCore - 1
Crown - 0

 :lol:  I guess it's all in how you want to look at it. If to ZAK the Ncore in his system to his ears is only 5-10% better then you can say that's a win for the crown.

I'm just interested if this crown amp can compete with the big boys and hang with them. Not necessarily be better.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: OzarkTom on 15 Nov 2014, 09:32 pm
:lol:  I guess it's all in how you want to look at it. If to ZAK the Ncore in his system to his ears is only 5-10% better then you can say that's a win for the crown.

I'm just interested if this crown amp can compete with the big boys and hang with them. Not necessarily be better.

Yep, the Crown will hang with the big boys. It will be more interesting when I get the Cryo 1500 amp back.

Oops, that is a four letter word, sorry.:nono:
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: guest61169 on 15 Nov 2014, 09:36 pm
The differences you described is way more than 5-10% to me , it may not justify 3 times the cost to some , but if you are serious about hi-fi , no way to live with the lesser amplifier ....

NCore - 1
Crown - 0

It is silly of you to conclude which is the better amplifier when there has not been a scientific test, let alone publication of all the variables.  For example, RCA inputs were used.  The Crown sounds its best with balanced inputs from a fully balanced preamplifier.   Here is my earlier post on how to get the best from the Crown:

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=130191.msg1376662#msg1376662





 
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: OzarkTom on 15 Nov 2014, 09:37 pm
The differences you described is way more than 5-10% to me , it may not justify 3 times the cost to some , but if you are serious about hi-fi , no way to live with the lesser amplifier ....


3 times the cost? Try 6 times. And the Crown has a lot more features.

I am curious about the hum problem on Zak's Crown. I have had hum issues in the past but the Crown is dead silent in my system.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Tomy2Tone on 15 Nov 2014, 09:42 pm
I am curious about the hum problem on Zak's Crown. I have had hum issues in the past but the Crown is dead silent in my system.

When I received the two 1500's I got now to run in bridge mono I tried plugging them straight to the wall like some of you do and I got a slight hum.  From the LP I couldnt quite hear it but the closer I got to the speakers it was there.

I now have them plugged into my Überbuss and the hum is gone and they sound great.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: ZAKski288 on 15 Nov 2014, 10:49 pm
There is a slight (Low) hum on the woofer when you put your ear up to them.  Not sure if it effects the overall sound when you crank them up.

The Crown In my work area system I have it plugged into a  DIY Felix and it is pretty quite but not dead silent.

Yes, the Crown might sound better with a balanced preamp and the Ncore should too. I'm still looking to upgrade my preamp any suggestions
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Occam on 15 Nov 2014, 11:31 pm
There is a slight (Low) hum on the woofer when you put your ear up to them.  Not sure if it effects the overall sound when you crank them up.

The Crown In my work area system I have it plugged into a  DIY Felix and it is pretty quite but not dead silent.

Yes, the Crown might sound better with a balanced preamp and the Ncore should too. I'm still looking to upgrade my preamp any suggestions

Zak,

Given the XLS's internal mains filter has 2 pairs of Y capacitors, a bit of hum attributable to leakage currents is not unexpected.(or that hum could be from something else). If you have the lid off, could you note the value of the small caps flanking those CMCs? 2 pairs of CMCs along with the 2 pairs of Y caps would seem to indicate a substantial amount of conducted common mode noise needing to be attenuated to meet FCC requirements. Would you also post the values of the 2 lager X caps in the filter?

Thanks in advance,
Paul
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: DaveC113 on 15 Nov 2014, 11:45 pm
Paul, you can't see those caps without taking a bunch of stuff apart but the larger caps are these... I'm pretty sure.

(http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l318/davec113/carlix2cap_zps58ff357d.jpg) (http://s99.photobucket.com/user/davec113/media/carlix2cap_zps58ff357d.jpg.html)
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: ZAKski288 on 16 Nov 2014, 12:06 am
Here what the binding post looks like and the measurements Crown XLS1500

3/16 hole , 5/8" Long threaded part, 3/8" shoulder with two flats

(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=108664)
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Rocket_Ronny on 16 Nov 2014, 12:54 am

Quote
Here what the binding post looks like

Why not just drill holes in the case and unsolder the speaker cable leads, then feed them out of the case and use the binding posts to clamp to the speaker wires.

I bet this alone would make a 5% increase in clarity and realism.

Rocket_Ronny
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Occam on 16 Nov 2014, 12:58 am
Ummm.... or use the extant, built in, excellent Neutrik Speakons.
Indeed, most here would prefer to use their already configured for binding post speaker cables.
I'd simply use a single 4 pole SPX Speakon plug, to which you could solder up to a 10 ga wire to each pole or 12 ga wire via screw, and break it out to the 2 channels from the plug. The CH1 Neutrik connector on the back of the XLS has both channels...
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: DaveC113 on 16 Nov 2014, 01:10 am
The differences you described is way more than 5-10% to me , it may not justify 3 times the cost to some , but if you are serious about hi-fi , no way to live with the lesser amplifier ....

NCore - 1
Crown - 0

I was thinking about this and I see the point, if money is no object just buy the best even if it's further down the road of diminishing returns, but if you have a budget the choice is not so easy.

I think the significance of having an a good amp at a very low price will be for those looking for the best bang for their buck in a system in the ~$15-20k or under range. If you can spend ~$500 for two Crown XLS 1500s, giving you ~1kW in 8 ohms, then the rest of your budget can be spent on buying a better source and speakers. The lower your budget, the more significant the availability of a cheap but good amp becomes. I also think they are a better choice vs a plate amp for subwoofers.

I'm not going to blow things out of proportion and say the Crown is better than amps 10x it's price... it's not a better amp than the Odyssey Stratos or my EL34 SET, but the SET is very limited in power and when I'm using the Crown I'm not thinking "it could sound better...", I have no urges to throw the SET amp on for music that it is more suitable for. The differences vs the Stratos are not night and day either, in some ways the Crown may be better.


Drivecore amps are not a true balanced design, there shouldn't be much difference in using the RCA vs XLR ins, but there could be big differences in the RCA vs XLR outs of the pre you are using to test it as well as sound of the different cables used. Crown has other lines of amps that are balanced class D with differential outputs.


Ronny, there are no SC leads, you'd have to solder them in yourself. I'd just go with a copper binding post, Pomona makes some for about $9 each, Cardas aren't horribly expensive either. Expensive binding posts don't make too much sense in this context... I'd only use Speakons if you're going to install them yourself since they are non-standard and you'd need to change back to spades or bananas for most any other amp, which is a hassle even if you do it yourself.

Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Folsom on 16 Nov 2014, 01:15 am
Has anyone tried the signal output chain option for actively controlling crossover on speakers?
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: a.wayne on 16 Nov 2014, 01:21 am
It is silly of you to conclude which is the better amplifier when there has not been a scientific test, let alone publication of all the variables.  For example, RCA inputs were used.  The Crown sounds its best with balanced inputs from a fully balanced preamplifier.   Here is my earlier post on how to get the best from the Crown:

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=130191.msg1376662#msg1376662

Whats Silly is your opinion trumping Zack or anyone else,  zak picked a winner , I reiterated what he said, topping off the irony , your's is not a scientific test .. :nono:
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Occam on 16 Nov 2014, 01:25 am
......
Drivecore amps are not a true balanced design, there shouldn't be much difference in using the RCA vs XLR ins, but there could be big differences in the RCA vs XLR outs of the pre you are using to test it as well as sound of the different cables used. Crown has other lines of amps that are balanced class D with differential outputs.
......

Differential, schmifferential.... Its the balanced input impedance of properly implemented balanced inputs, with its ability to reject common mode noise and minimize ground loop issues that are IMO the primary benefit. FWIW
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: ZAKski288 on 16 Nov 2014, 01:29 am
Mr. Occam, I have the number of the vishay  4n7 K  300v  Y2, 3386 MPK  L  1236 small gray in front and back of coil. Coil #141736-1  BMC  1240,yellow  item Carli 1.0k275v-x2  MPX40 / 100 / 56. ZAK
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=108666)

(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=108667)

(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=108668)

(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=108669)

(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=108670)
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: a.wayne on 16 Nov 2014, 01:33 am
I was thinking about this and I see the point, if money is no object just buy the best even if it's further down the road of diminishing returns, but if you have a budget the choice is not so easy.

I think the significance of having an a good amp at a very low price will be for those looking for the best bang for their buck in a system in the ~$15-20k or under range. If you can spend ~$500 for two Crown XLS 1500s, giving you ~1kW in 8 ohms, then the rest of your budget can be spent on buying a better source and speakers. The lower your budget, the more significant the availability of a cheap but good amp becomes. I also think they are a better choice vs a plate amp for subwoofers.

I'm not going to blow things out of proportion and say the Crown is better than amps 10x it's price... it's not a better amp than the Odyssey Stratos or my EL34 SET, but the SET is very limited in power and when I'm using the Crown I'm not thinking "it could sound better...", I have no urges to throw the SET amp on for music that it is more suitable for. The differences vs the Stratos are not night and day either, in some ways the Crown may be better.


Drivecore amps are not a true balanced design, there shouldn't be much difference in using the RCA vs XLR ins, but there could be big differences in the RCA vs XLR outs of the pre you are using to test it as well as sound of the different cables used. Crown has other lines of amps that are balanced class D with differential outputs.


Ronny, there are no SC leads, you'd have to solder them in yourself. I'd just go with a copper binding post, Pomona makes some for about $9 each, Cardas aren't horribly expensive either. Expensive binding posts don't make too much sense in this context... I'd only use Speakons if you're going to install them yourself since they are non-standard and you'd need to change back to spades or bananas for most any other amp, which is a hassle even if you do it yourself.

+1 on the balanced agenda ....

I feel you but i was more or less not thinking 20K but 2k budget range as most were comparing to others in this range. What seems small and insignificant to some is night and day  to others , the sonic differences as described by zak seems significant to me , it may or may not be in my system or to my ears  and  he did pick the Ncore as the winner..
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: DaveC113 on 16 Nov 2014, 01:37 am
Differential, schmifferential.... Its the balanced input impedance of properly implemented balanced inputs, with its ability to reject common mode noise and minimize ground loops issues that are IMO the primary benefit. FWIW

I only mentioned it because someone else said it sounded better using the XLR ins, I don't think the amp will sound better using it's XLR ins all things being equal as it does not have a true balanced input, it'll sound better only if the XLR outs on the preamp and cables used happen to sound better, which may vary. The point being people shouldn't expect an improvement if they use the XLR inputs, it might be better or it might not depending on the preamp and cables involved.

a.wayne, I was thinking $20k for the entire system. For example if I had $15k Id but 2 XLS 1500s, a Sony HAP-Z1 EX, a tube buffer and a pair of Nimbus Black or used TAD Evos. I don't think buying cheaper speakers and an amp that will be better than the Crowns would get you a better system.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: ZAKski288 on 16 Nov 2014, 01:43 am
More inside pictures ZAK
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=108680)

(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=108681)

(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=108682)

(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=108683)
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: OzarkTom on 16 Nov 2014, 01:44 am
+1 on the balanced agenda ....

I feel you but i was more or less not thinking 20K but 2k budget range as most were comparing to others in this range. What seems small and insignificant to some is night and day  to others , the sonic differences as described by zak seems significant to me , it may or may not be in my system or to my ears  and  he did pick the Ncore as the winner..

And then the money saved on the amps, about $1600, could go for a better power cord and better speaker cables, or even better speakers like Dave suggested. That would make a bigger difference in your SQ than the sound difference in these two amps are.

Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: a.wayne on 16 Nov 2014, 01:47 am
I only mentioned it because someone else said it sounded better using the XLR ins, I don't think the amp will sound better using it's XLR ins all things being equal as it does not have a true balanced input, it'll sound better only if the XLR outs on the preamp and cables used happen to sound better, which may vary. The point being people shouldn't expect an improvement if they use the XLR inputs, it might be better or it might not depending on the preamp and cables involved.

a.wayne, I was thinking $20k for the entire system. For example if I had $15k Id but 2 XLS 1500s, a Sony HAP-Z1 EX, a tube buffer and a pair of Nimbus Black or used TAD Evos. I don't think buying cheaper speakers and an amp that will be better than the Crowns would get you a better system.

Ok 17 K on an set of Infinity IRS's and a pr of crowns .... :)
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: a.wayne on 16 Nov 2014, 01:50 am
More inside pictures ZAK
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=108680)

(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=108681)

(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=108682)

(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=108683)

Scott Wurcer must be blushing ....... :lol:
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Tomy2Tone on 16 Nov 2014, 01:58 am
And then the money saved on the amps, about $1600, could go for a better power cord and better speaker cables, or even better speakers like Dave suggested. That would make a bigger difference in your SQ than the sound difference in these two amps are.

 :thumb:

There's a crazy guy over at ZenWave audio that has crazy good cables. I think he made a deal with the devil or somethin cause they sound gooood!  :D
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: OzarkTom on 16 Nov 2014, 02:05 am
:thumb:

There's a crazy guy over at ZenWave audio that has crazy good cables. I think he made a deal with the devil or somethin cause they sound gooood!  :D

I know, I need to sell my Job amp first. Those are the most musical cables that Rex and I have ever listened to.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Occam on 16 Nov 2014, 02:11 am
Zak,

Many thanks for the excellent photos, much appreciated. The Carli X caps are polypropylene and film from a reputable Taiwanese company. It does seem specifically oriented towards passing the FCC test for conductive emissions. But it will attenuate noise coming in from the mains. It does use a higher than typical amount of Y capacitance, and it might be prone to ground loop issues if not in a balanced input component environment. I'm impressed with Crown's use of paralleled mkt caps in the output and zobel filters. Thanks again for the great pictures.

Dave - lets just agree to disagree regarding the primary benefits of [different forms of] balanced components.

Regards,
Paul
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: a.wayne on 16 Nov 2014, 02:15 am
I know, I need to sell my Job amp first. Those are the most musical cables that Rex and I have ever listened to.

Expensive too, Im allergic to expensive cables ..... :)
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: a.wayne on 16 Nov 2014, 02:17 am
Paul ,

What is there to disagree with , the Crown is not a balanced line amplfier.....
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: ZAKski288 on 16 Nov 2014, 02:18 am
I'm waiting for Jackman's comparison of the two amps.  Also I did Bi-amp my speakers,both in stereo mode , one running up binding post the other on the lower binding post. No difference in sound. But I did not run them in bridged mono mode , not sure it will make much.  may have to try.  ZAK
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: OzarkTom on 16 Nov 2014, 02:23 am
I'm waiting for Jackman's comparison of the two amps.  Also I did Bi-amp my speakers,both in stereo mode , one running up binding post the other on the lower binding post. No difference in sound. But I did not run them in bridged mono mode , not sure it will make much.  may have to try.  ZAK

Did you have the $7 cedar rings under the Crown? That makes quite an improvement on the depth. That was the first thing that I noticed when I tried it.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Tomy2Tone on 16 Nov 2014, 02:25 am
I'm waiting for Jackman's comparison of the two amps.

As we speak there is a large gathering making its way below Jackmans balcony. Will we see the puffs of white smoke or will we have to wait. Anticipation builds as we await on this festive night.  :D

In due time. He can take as long as he needs to.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Folsom on 16 Nov 2014, 02:31 am
Zak, if you're real bold you'll tell me what diode that is under the two screws.  :thumb: D901
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: ZAKski288 on 16 Nov 2014, 02:33 am
Did you have the $7 cedar rings under the Crown? That makes quite an improvement on the depth. That was the first thing that I noticed when I tried it.
That might be it, I need to get some of those cedar rings, thanks OzarkTom . I sure hope Jackman has some .  ZAK
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Occam on 16 Nov 2014, 02:34 am
Paul ,

What is there to disagree with , the Crown is not a balanced line amplifier.....

Agreed. My point is that I believe a properly balanced impedance input stage, fed by a balanced impedance output source offers substantial benefits, especially when you've a component that's leaking currents onto the safety ground.

Would somebody with a ZLS please [unplug the amp from the mains and] measure the resistance between the safety ground prong on the mains inlet and the outer signal ground on one of RCA sockets and post the value?  If there is no continuity, that would be great. TIA
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Tomy2Tone on 16 Nov 2014, 02:37 am
That might be it, I need to get some of those cedar rings, thanks OzarkTom . I sure hope Jackman has some .  ZAK

Yep, he sure does.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: ZAKski288 on 16 Nov 2014, 02:37 am
Zak, if you're real bold you'll tell me what diode that is under the two screws.  :thumb: D901
Do you have to unscrew it or is the number on the outside.  ZAK
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Folsom on 16 Nov 2014, 02:38 am
Paul, you've poo pooed Y caps on a few occasions, do you think they're of a benefit here outside of regulation requirements?
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Folsom on 16 Nov 2014, 02:39 am
Do you have to unscrew it or is the number on the outside.  ZAK

It would be under the plate, held on by screws.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: guest61169 on 16 Nov 2014, 02:50 am
Some topology info from the development team.  Not sure if it will be of any assistance.   Reads a bit like a brochure.
http://www.prosoundweb.com/article/designer_notebook_inside_new_crown_xls_series_power_amplifiers/
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: ZAKski288 on 16 Nov 2014, 03:15 am
It would be under the plate, held on by screws.
EIC  Backwords RU
RBV2506
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: ZAKski288 on 16 Nov 2014, 03:41 am
Agreed. My point is that I believe a properly balanced impedance input stage, fed by a balanced impedance output source offers substantial benefits, especially when you've a component that's leaking currents onto the safety ground.

Would somebody with a ZLS please [unplug the amp from the mains and] measure the resistance between the safety ground prong on the mains inlet and the outer signal ground on one of RCA sockets and post the value?  If there is no continuity, that would be great. TIA
Not to sure if I measured right but. AC power cord ground and outer RCA, there is continuity 00.4 ohms.  RCA outer to XLR ground 81.3 ohms.  ZAK
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Folsom on 16 Nov 2014, 03:43 am
I don't really care if there's a green alien that sings electrons into the speaker wires, and eats guinea pigs through some alien osmosis, inside the "amp" box... What you hear is what you hear, and that's the comparrison. So yes, you can compare anything you want.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Folsom on 16 Nov 2014, 03:47 am
Pin 1 would be what to measure the XLR to safety ground on IEC jack, middle leg. (Pin 1 is connected to chassis)

(https://www.gearslutz.com/board/attachments/geekslutz-forum/238234d1307094157-hiss-hum-solutions-q-about-chassis-vs-signal-ground-n110fig1b.gif)

It appears this is a source for that noise as Paul predicted as possible. There's a circuit to safety/chassis ground. Where? Good question because if it's prior certain parts it'll also create a rise in induction. That's pretty textbook, so I'd like to think not but you'd also think there wouldn't be the continuity you just found.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: jackman on 16 Nov 2014, 03:50 am
Hi Guy,
I've been playing with the Crown throughout the day.  Will provide a detailed update and comparison  tomorrow. I wanted to give it a chance to warm up and make sure my subs were dialed in properly. For starters, I'm always amazed by how compact and lightweight these little Class D amps are...and the Crown is no exception. It weighs almost nothing, runs cool and silent in my system. No issues with fan noise and setup was a breeze.

No matter how it compares to the NCore or more expensive amps, I'll probably pick up an XLS, especially if I find a 1500 for under $200. It is very compact and does not lack for power. Very impressive little amp so far...little in size only, not performance.

PS - if I get one, the binding posts will have to go, unless i just make a set of Speakon speaker cables.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: ZAKski288 on 16 Nov 2014, 03:55 am
Pin 1 would be what to measure the XLR to safety ground on IEC jack, middle leg. (Pin 1 is connected to chassis)

(https://www.gearslutz.com/board/attachments/geekslutz-forum/238234d1307094157-hiss-hum-solutions-q-about-chassis-vs-signal-ground-n110fig1b.gif)

It appears this is a source for that noise as Paul predicted as possible. There's a circuit to safety/chassis ground. Where? Good question because if it's prior certain parts it'll also create a rise in induction. That's pretty textbook, so I'd like to think not but you'd also think there wouldn't be the continuity you just found.
81.3 ohms  ZAK
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Folsom on 16 Nov 2014, 04:01 am
How about pin 1 to a chassis screw? And screw to RCA ground? (Outside)
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: ZAKski288 on 16 Nov 2014, 04:07 am
How about pin 1 to a chassis screw? And screw to RCA ground? (Outside)
Yes they all measure 81.3 ohms.   ZAK
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Folsom on 16 Nov 2014, 04:08 am
So then is it 81.3 from safety ground to chassis?
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: a.wayne on 16 Nov 2014, 05:51 am
Hi Guy,
I've been playing with the Crown throughout the day.  Will provide a detailed update and comparison  tomorrow. I wanted to give it a chance to warm up and make sure my subs were dialed in properly. For starters, I'm always amazed by how compact and lightweight these little Class D amps are...and the Crown is no exception. It weighs almost nothing, runs cool and silent in my system. No issues with fan noise and setup was a breeze.

No matter how it compares to the NCore or more expensive amps, I'll probably pick up an XLS, especially if I find a 1500 for under $200. It is very compact and does not lack for power. Very impressive little amp so far...little in size only, not performance.

PS - if I get one, the binding posts will have to go, unless i just make a set of Speakon speaker cables.

About time you surfaced , a whole day and we haven't heard Jack .... :)
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: OzarkTom on 16 Nov 2014, 11:06 am
Salis Audio will receive the Crown 1500 amp by Wednesday, maybe before. The Cryoman will receive a 1500 on Tuesday. It will be interesting on what they find.

I will go out on a limb and make this prediction. The cryo Crown is going to beat the stock Ncores, probably by a small margin. Cryo Ncores will probably beat the cryo Crown by a small margin, but who here is brave enough to have their Ncores cryo'd? I would never do that if I owned Ncores.

One of the next projects the Cryoman has for himself is to build his own Ncores and cryo them. He has heard the Ncores and likes how they sound.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: ZAKski288 on 16 Nov 2014, 03:23 pm
     Tell me something about the gain on Crown. When I compared the two amps I had the Ncore on the left speaker and the Crown on the right speaker and I adjusted the gain to match the volume of the Ncore . The gain setting was one click away from full gain, maybe that is why I had some hum noise. In my second system my gain is at 12 o'clock, when I pause the music and turn the gain all the way, the noise gets louder.  ZAK
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: jackman on 16 Nov 2014, 03:36 pm
In my experience, the Crown has much higher gain than the NCore. My SAS preamp was modded by the designer, Steve, to reduce gain to 7dB.  I listen to the NCore  with volume controls set at around 12:00 and the equivalent spl level of the crown is is between 9 and 10:00.  This is by ear and I'll get the meter out today and do it right.

I'm not going to post any specifics or details of direct comparisons with other amps until I have more time. For the selling price, the Crown is a true bargain and it performs better than previous generation class d pro amps.  I will say that much. Also, to my ears, the wood rings do nothing except perhaps give you funny looks, comments and possibly ridicule from your non audiofool friends and family members.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: guest61169 on 16 Nov 2014, 04:49 pm
     Tell me something about the gain on Crown. When I compared the two amps I had the Ncore on the left speaker and the Crown on the right speaker and I adjusted the gain to match the volume of the Ncore . The gain setting was one click away from full gain, maybe that is why I had some hum noise. In my second system my gain is at 12 o'clock, when I pause the music and turn the gain all the way, the noise gets louder.  ZAK

My Benchmark DAC-1 has jumpers inside which I can control attenuation when using the balanced outputs.  I have mine set for 30dB of attenuation, which is factory default.  On the Crown, the controls are at the moment set to 11:00.   Set up like this, I can increase the useful range of the Benchmark's volume control so it doesn't get too loud too quick.   The Benchmark volume control, like many analog volume controls, also tracks better around 12:00 or slightly higher.   If I wanted to annoy the neighbours, I could turn up the controls on the Crown a little or change the Benchmark jumpers to 20dB, 10dB or 0dB (no padding).   Each jumper change also affects the output impedance, with the lowest at either 30dB or 0dB.   Not a big deal if cables are short.   On the Crown level controls, don't go too high or you might get a bit of hiss (depending on your speakers).  Hum, on the other hand is likely a ground loop in the system somewhere.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: a.wayne on 16 Nov 2014, 05:18 pm
     Tell me something about the gain on Crown. When I compared the two amps I had the Ncore on the left speaker and the Crown on the right speaker and I adjusted the gain to match the volume of the Ncore . The gain setting was one click away from full gain, maybe that is why I had some hum noise. In my second system my gain is at 12 o'clock, when I pause the music and turn the gain all the way, the noise gets louder.  ZAK

Wait what ...!!!!! No spl meter :) anyway you should be able to use full gain without hum or hiss........
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: ZAKski288 on 16 Nov 2014, 09:22 pm
Wait what ...!!!!! No spl meter :) anyway you should be able to use full gain without hum or hiss........
SORRY, No meter.....I just eared it. ZAK
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: roscoeiii on 16 Nov 2014, 09:51 pm
IIRC, some folks have reported best sound with the gain on the XLS no turned all the way up. Something to play with as we are comparing amps...
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Tomy2Tone on 16 Nov 2014, 09:55 pm
IIRC, some folks have reported best sound with the gain on the XLS no turned all the way up. Something to play with as we are comparing amps...

Yeah, for me it's at about 3 o'clock. Glad you could join in!
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: mr_bill on 17 Nov 2014, 04:31 am
What happened to the NCore Crown XLS comparisons?
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: roscoeiii on 17 Nov 2014, 02:35 pm
What happened to the NCore Crown XLS comparisons?

I'm sure they are coming from Jack.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: a.wayne on 17 Nov 2014, 03:18 pm
Well its all dead here now, monday and we still havent  heard Jack , ....... :)
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: roscoeiii on 17 Nov 2014, 03:31 pm
He's probably still celebrating the Bears win.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Tomy2Tone on 17 Nov 2014, 03:32 pm
I'm sure they are coming from Jack.

I'm sorry roscoeiii. I guess I thought you were able to meet up with Jack yesterday. Was that not the case?
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: roscoeiii on 17 Nov 2014, 03:35 pm
I'm sorry roscoeiii. I guess I thought you were able to meet up with Jack yesterday. Was that not the case?

No we haven't been able to catch up yet.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: wushuliu on 17 Nov 2014, 04:19 pm
He's probably still celebrating the Bears win.

He's milking the suspense. It's the big dramatic pause in all the reality shows.

Watch this Key & Peele sketch on that, it's *brilliant*

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oPpzJAzdpTU
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: a.wayne on 17 Nov 2014, 06:33 pm
He's probably still celebrating the Bears win.

Yes rare moments are to  be taken in :lol: If it gets any quieter we'll  have to let Werd back in ....  :rotflmao:
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: OzarkTom on 17 Nov 2014, 06:46 pm
Leave Jack alone, some of us has to work for a living.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: a.wayne on 17 Nov 2014, 07:13 pm
lighten up Tom, no one is busting Jack , all in jest......   :roll:
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: a.wayne on 17 Nov 2014, 07:19 pm
 :scratch:
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Occam on 17 Nov 2014, 07:25 pm
Paul, you've poo pooed Y caps on a few occasions, do you think they're of a benefit here outside of regulation requirements?

Obviously, that filter will attenuate noise, both common mode [via the CMCs and Y caps] and normal/differential mode [via the leakage inductance of the CMCs and the X caps] in both directions, as an output filter to comply with FCC conducted noise requirements, as well as a power filter attenuating noise from the mains going into the ZLS amp.
Its also dumping common mode noise onto the safety ground of the mains, which might well be connected to the secondary's center tap of the power transformer in the component sitting next to the ZLS amp.
Using Y caps is much like educating your children in NYC, whatever you do is wrong, and the best you can hope for is to make the best compromises. (which, given the price point the amps are built to, I think Crown did very well.)
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: orientalexpress on 17 Nov 2014, 07:58 pm
It's there any mod to make this work with passive pre amp?Hate to have all those watts and not able to put to a good use :thumb:
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: roscoeiii on 17 Nov 2014, 08:24 pm
It's there any mod to make this work with passive pre amp?Hate to have all those watts and not able to put to a good use :thumb:

Should work fine with a passive pre, if your speakers are sensitive enough and the signal from your source is strong enough. But you may not be able to set the gain on the Crown to what some might think is the optimal level.

For systems without turntables, the gain from the source should be sufficient, with no active preamp gain stage required. Most (but not all) CD players and DACs have a 2V output, which should be ample.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: mr_bill on 18 Nov 2014, 02:59 pm
 :sleep: :sleep: :sleep: :sleep: :sleep: :sleep: :sleep:
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: OzarkTom on 18 Nov 2014, 03:09 pm
:sleep: :sleep: :sleep: :sleep: :sleep: :sleep: :sleep:

Jack is probably out  buying up all the used Crowns before Roscoe gets to hear it.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: guest61169 on 18 Nov 2014, 03:14 pm
After you have set the options how you like, the amp can be made to look a bit better by this "black tape" mod:

(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=108866)

You can see a bit of one Sims Navcom Silencer under the front left of the amp in the pic.  Sims now makes archery products and it's possible some could be used as amplifier feet.  If you search EBay for Navcom or Limbsaver Broadband you will see some stuff like that.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Tomy2Tone on 18 Nov 2014, 09:00 pm
After you have set the options how you like, the amp can be made to look a bit better by this "black tape" mod:

(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=108866)

You can see a bit of one Sims Navcom Silencer under the front left of the amp in the pic.  Sims now makes archery products and it's possible some could be used as amplifier feet.  If you search EBay for Navcom or Limbsaver Broadband you will see some stuff like that.

Nice! The menu screen is pretty bright.

Should be interesting to see what Salis Audio has up his sleeve for mods. Wonder if he thought of the "black tape" idea?  :)
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Folsom on 18 Nov 2014, 09:27 pm
I'm actually more curious if I'll like it over my prototype 7297 board :lol:

I can tell you this... First it's clear that there might be a couple key re-cap areas in the front end. The recent OSCON flavors from Panasonic and Nichicon are like they're canning bits of God and attaching leads. I really don't like the diode bridge in it. But we'll see. If there's an easy way to isolate the RCA's from the safety ground that might be a nice improvement. It depends on a few things.

It appears to run on very high voltages, so there's serious limits towards the amp section and changes. Also it's a SMPS with PFC to DC to DC conversion. I prefer linear, but that's not a "mod", that's like a revamp requiring so much effort I should just work for Crown to make an Audiophile version. Well, perhaps. The PFC section is straight rectified 120v. Unfortunately I'd say that it's not for sound, and more just for compliance. I'm sure outboard PFC would benefit the amp, baring a radically different PSU.

The upside is that it already sounds so good!



Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: wisnon on 18 Nov 2014, 09:30 pm
So Tony, will you be making an audiophile modded version for sale?
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Folsom on 18 Nov 2014, 09:47 pm
So Tony, will you be making an audiophile modded version for sale?

I'm not Tony, if you're asking me.

I figured once I'm done (I have to burn the unit in too, since it's "fresh") Tom will let you all know what he thinks or let someone hear it. Then I'll switch to it being an industry offering, if the desire for what the cost vs. performance happens to be.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: a.wayne on 18 Nov 2014, 09:54 pm
I'm actually more curious if I'll like it over my prototype 7297 board :lol:

I can tell you this... First it's clear that there might be a couple key re-cap areas in the front end. The recent OSCON flavors from Panasonic and Nichicon are like they're canning bits of God and attaching leads. I really don't like the diode bridge in it. But we'll see. If there's an easy way to isolate the RCA's from the safety ground that might be a nice improvement. It depends on a few things.

It appears to run on very high voltages, so there's serious limits towards the amp section and changes. Also it's a SMPS with PFC to DC to DC conversion. I prefer linear, but that's not a "mod", that's like a revamp requiring so much effort I should just work for Crown to make an Audiophile version. Well, perhaps. The PFC section is straight rectified 120v. Unfortunately I'd say that it's not for sound, and more just for compliance. I'm sure outboard PFC would benefit the amp, baring a radically different PSU.

The upside is that it already sounds so good!


Best to see if any tangible improvements come from such mods,  It may  just be an  enigma XLS 2500  ..... :)
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Folsom on 18 Nov 2014, 09:56 pm
There's one mod that should be blatantly better. Luckily it's pretty cheap. However it could even already be done and I don't know... Oohhh mystery!
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Tomy2Tone on 18 Nov 2014, 09:58 pm
There's one mod that should be blatantly better. Luckily it's pretty cheap. However it could even already be done and I don't know... Oohhh mystery!

Man...that almost sounds like a riddle!
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: mcgsxr on 18 Nov 2014, 10:00 pm
Sounds like a fun amp, if there were any affordable ones around me I would try one out for sure.

Locally (here close to Toronto), they are running over $500 new, and there are no used ones I can find.

I will continue to follow with interest!
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: OzarkTom on 18 Nov 2014, 10:15 pm
The one I shipped to Salis Audio was used once at a concert, so it probably has not been broken in. I have had a 2500 in my system for the last several days, and it sounds like the 1500 and 2000 models. I read on another forum, these are very hard to destruct, only 1 failure out of 700 amps.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Occam on 18 Nov 2014, 10:51 pm
....
Also it's a SMPS with PFC to DC to DC conversion....

You've confirmed that the switching supply on the ZLS is using active power factor correction?
Could you give me a reference please?

Thanks in advance,
Paul
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Folsom on 18 Nov 2014, 11:49 pm
You've confirmed that the switching supply on the ZLS is using active power factor correction?
Could you give me a reference please?

Thanks in advance,
Paul

Paul, I just got it so I'm looking around more. I want to look under heatsink clips. The cheap ddiode bridge isn't the only diode set as I can see more Dxxx designations. I haven't got the board out just yet. I'll get some pictures if I can for you.

Listening impression, detail is so good, bass is deep. Unfortunately it'll put me to sleep in this current rendition. It needs some spice.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: a.wayne on 18 Nov 2014, 11:56 pm
So no life .........
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Folsom on 19 Nov 2014, 12:19 am
So no life .........

It's a different kind of life. Plus I haven't done anything yet :)

The way it's revealing isn't something you hear in the average audio store.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: JoshK on 19 Nov 2014, 12:21 am
Sounds like a fun amp, if there were any affordable ones around me I would try one out for sure.

Locally (here close to Toronto), they are running over $500 new, and there are no used ones I can find.

I will continue to follow with interest!

I noticed that as well.   For that price I'll opt for the Ncore 400s.  Not the same price, but given my experience with Hypex, should be quite good.   If I got the Crown's for $300ish I might be tempted.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: OzarkTom on 19 Nov 2014, 12:22 am
So no life .........

The amp isn't broken in yet. It gets better after 100 hours.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: OzarkTom on 19 Nov 2014, 12:25 am
I noticed that as well.   For that price I'll opt for the Ncore 400s.  Not the same price, but given my experience with Hypex, should be quite good.   If I got the Crown's for $300ish I might be tempted.

Amazon has the new 1500 for $325, three years warranty.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: JoshK on 19 Nov 2014, 12:29 am
Not here in Canada they don't (amazon.ca)...which was the gist.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Folsom on 19 Nov 2014, 12:34 am
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=108903)

Er that didn't convert well, but that's the power section.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: DaveC113 on 19 Nov 2014, 12:37 am
I'll proxy for you Canadians, eh.  :D If you find one you want on ebay, Amazon, whatever let me know... I have an ebay sniping program so I can bid on auctions easily too. I got a brand new 1500 for $262.

I'd have to say the amp is significantly worse before it breaks in and it needs a couple hundred hours, at least. At first it has a harsh, irritating, 2D sound, break in was pretty dramatic.

Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Folsom on 19 Nov 2014, 12:46 am
No harshness on my end, but I have power conditioner too.

I get no reading RCA to ground.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: JoshK on 19 Nov 2014, 12:50 am
I'll proxy for you Canadians, eh.  :D If you find one you want on ebay, Amazon, whatever let me know... I have an ebay sniping program so I can bid on auctions easily too. I got a brand new 1500 for $262.

I'd have to say the amp is significantly worse before it breaks in and it needs a couple hundred hours, at least. At first it has a harsh, irritating, 2D sound, break in was pretty dramatic.



Thanks Dave,  I might follow up with you, but not right now.  I spent a fortune lately, particularly with buying investment property in the states.  I will do with what I have for the mean time.   I wouldn't mind hearing one.

I'm increasingly becoming anti-audiophile in the sense that I think mid-fi up to medium level hi-fi is being antiquated by cheap big money pro audio and only the super high end or niche electronics can outdo stuff like this.   So I am a bit of a believer than Harman and company can outdo the sane level hi-fi electronics.  It was only a matter of time really, Audiophile designers haven't kept up with the R&D of the pros.  They simply haven't the resources.

I think if one has an amicable system (where the bass crosses in ~150hz or below), why not biamp with this dude on bass and use a nice low powered SET for up top.  Of course, those system aren't prevalent, but maybe they should be.  Most of the power is used below 150hz, especially considering Mr Schroeder. 

Given the power vs. freq requirements and most vocal are over 200ish hz,  voila.  Marriage of the best.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Folsom on 19 Nov 2014, 01:32 am
Paul, it's got some QXXX under the next heatsink following rectification. So it's AC-DC-AC-DC.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: a.wayne on 19 Nov 2014, 01:50 am
Thanks Dave,  I might follow up with you, but not right now.  I spent a fortune lately, particularly with buying investment property in the states.  I will do with what I have for the mean time.   I wouldn't mind hearing one.

I'm increasingly becoming anti-audiophile in the sense that I think mid-fi up to medium level hi-fi is being antiquated by cheap big money pro audio and only the super high end or niche electronics can outdo stuff like this.   So I am a bit of a believer than Harman and company can outdo the sane level hi-fi electronics.  It was only a matter of time really, Audiophile designers haven't kept up with the R&D of the pros.  They simply haven't the resources.

I think if one how an amicable system (where the bass crosses in ~150hz or below), why not biamp with this dude on bass and use a nice low powered SET for up top.  Of course, those system aren't prevalent, but maybe they should be.  Most of the power is used below 150hz, especially considering Mr Schroeder. 

Given the power vs. freq requirements and most vocal are over 200ish hz,  voila.  Marriage of the best.

I cant agree with this , its obviously system dependent, more specifically speakers will make the biggest difference in how you percieve this difference in quality, i have never experienced pro stuff bettering audiophile quality products ever ( not pseudo audiophile stuff)   And i have played with more than a few over the decades...


Regards
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: DaveC113 on 19 Nov 2014, 02:41 am
Thanks Dave,  I might follow up with you, but not right now.  I spent a fortune lately, particularly with buying investment property in the states.  I will do with what I have for the mean time.   I wouldn't mind hearing one.

I'm increasingly becoming anti-audiophile in the sense that I think mid-fi up to medium level hi-fi is being antiquated by cheap big money pro audio and only the super high end or niche electronics can outdo stuff like this.   So I am a bit of a believer than Harman and company can outdo the sane level hi-fi electronics.  It was only a matter of time really, Audiophile designers haven't kept up with the R&D of the pros.  They simply haven't the resources.

I think if one how an amicable system (where the bass crosses in ~150hz or below), why not biamp with this dude on bass and use a nice low powered SET for up top.  Of course, those system aren't prevalent, but maybe they should be.  Most of the power is used below 150hz, especially considering Mr Schroeder. 

Given the power vs. freq requirements and most vocal are over 200ish hz,  voila.  Marriage of the best.

Great minds think alike...  :thumb:   I bought the Crown mainly for a speaker I'm working on that will have a 150 Hz xo point, the Crown has a 24 dB LR xo built in so I was thinking it would serve as an active bass amp driving 15" woofers from 150 Hz down and then my EL34 SET should be enough power for the mids/highs.

I agree it was just a matter of time before inexpensive class D caught up with the middle of the pack in the hifi game. I think the time is now and it'll only get better from here on out.

Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: a.wayne on 19 Nov 2014, 02:55 am
Err,

Sorry to say, but mid fi is not audiophile nor hifi , so is the Crown sound medfi or hifi..? 
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: OzarkTom on 19 Nov 2014, 03:01 am
Err,

Sorry to say, but mid fi is not audiophile nor hifi , so is the Crown sound medfi or hifi..?

Are you related to Werd?
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Folsom on 19 Nov 2014, 03:08 am
It's Hifi. Trust me, there's nothing that sounds like it in any midfi realm on this planet. But I think criticism of say the Ncore would be similar. They're different, real different. Bel Canto's D amps aren't as revealing; probably why people are ICE<Ncore<Pascal, now ICE<DriveCore<Ncore<Pascal.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: cab on 19 Nov 2014, 03:17 am
Funny that Hypex markets their products as ultra high performance audio amplifiers for high end audio while Pascal markets their amp modules as "pro audio".....
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: a.wayne on 19 Nov 2014, 03:41 am
It's Hifi. Trust me, there's nothing that sounds like it in any midfi realm on this planet. But I think criticism of say the Ncore would be similar. They're different, real different. Bel Canto's D amps aren't as revealing; probably why people are ICE<Ncore<Pascal, now ICE<DriveCore<Ncore<Pascal.

Thanks for the response , good to hear,  I guess it was a difficult question for some , revealing can also translate out to bright and fatiguing, listening over time will tell, which is what  i had found with the Bel Canto's . The Crown seems  like a serious Class-D contender...


Tom , no time for the dogma , if you have intellectually tanked , no need to force a response by being disrespectful ..



Regards ...
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: OzarkTom on 19 Nov 2014, 04:55 am
Sorry, I guess just you haven't followed the thread that closely. Five people here has talked about how great the Crown amps sound, no one has mentioned midfi. I would never put a midfi amp running my Zellatons, it would reek.

Zak said it was a toss-up between the Crown and Ncores and he could live with either one. Ncores wins by 5-10%. He said the only difference was the Ncores has more depth, but the soundstage starts further back on the Ncores than the Crown. The depth is automatically going to be deeper. The Crown amp does not lack any kind of depth.

But should we give the Crown amp a 5-10% handicap? It is a single stereo amp on a single chassis and single power supply while the Ncores are dual mono, dual chassis, and dual power supplies. If we stuck another Crown amp in the race, that should be another 5-10% improvement for the Crown.

I seriously doubt anyone here admits the Ncores are midfi.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Folsom on 19 Nov 2014, 05:20 am
The amp section in the Crown is smarter than you're giving it credit for... The heatsink config with transformer also acts as a LFMF shield. The XLS has a few money savers that the NCore doesn't.

I can't tell you much about there "eliminated 500 parts" gig... The actual amplification is in a couple 3 prong parts per channel. The higher wattage versions have more of them, and maybe the biggest has higher voltage. There's actually spots for them, as in they use the same boards.

There's way more parts than the TPA3116 :lol:
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: a.wayne on 19 Nov 2014, 05:36 am
Salis,

Have you seen the new mcintosh stuff , their new 301 monobloc is only 6 inches tall and rated at 300 watts , I'm guessing Class -D .......

@Tom:

The term mid-fi was thrown around and Im not familiar with the sound of NCores  hence my question.........
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Folsom on 19 Nov 2014, 06:52 am
Salis,

Have you seen the new mcintosh stuff , their new 301 monobloc is only 6 inches tall and rated at 300 watts , I'm guessing Class -D .......

@Tom:

The term mid-fi was thrown around and Im not familar with the sound of NCores  hence my question.........

If they get any at the place in town that carries McIntosh I'll try to peek.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Tomy2Tone on 19 Nov 2014, 06:00 pm
But should we give the Crown amp a 5-10% handicap? It is a single stereo amp on a single chassis and single power supply while the Ncores are dual mono, dual chassis, and dual power supplies. If we stuck another Crown amp in the race, that should be another 5-10% improvement for the Crown.

I seriously doubt anyone here admits the Ncores are midfi.

Hey Tom, have you had a chance to run a couple XLS's in mono?

Just curious to know if anybody else thinks they are better than just one in stereo, call me crazy but they do to me. I have about 140hrs on my two right now and it seems they turned a corner a day or so ago. From what I thought was already a detailed 3d image is now even more so. Kind of freaked out a little last night hearing vocals with almost a hologram like presence.

Listening to Eric Clapton Unplugged was pretty awesome, especially hearing the audience sounding like they're in the room with you. Still having fun with this!
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: mr_bill on 19 Nov 2014, 09:33 pm
Hey Tom, have you had a chance to run a couple XLS's in mono?

Just curious to know if anybody else thinks they are better than just one in stereo, call me crazy but they do to me. I have about 140hrs on my two right now and it seems they turned a corner a day or so ago. From what I thought was already a detailed 3d image is now even more so. Kind of freaked out a little last night hearing vocals with almost a hologram like presence.

Listening to Eric Clapton Unplugged was pretty awesome, especially hearing the audience sounding like they're in the room with you. Still having fun with this!

Tom,
Didn't you have the Aluminati X2 amps in your system and how do they compare to the Crowns?
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: sonicxtc on 19 Nov 2014, 10:29 pm
Is there any general consensus that ASIDE from power output the Crown XLS 1500, XLS 2000 and XLS 2500 are all the same in terms of SOUND QUALITY?
Looking at purchasing one, so I'd like to be sure. Thank you.

Pre-amp recommendations?
On a separate note, does anyone have a suggestion for possible dac/pre/hp or pre with headphone output they think would be a great match with the Crown XLS in a second system? I'm not ruling out tubes, but I'm aiming at a modest price point: new/used  :D under $400 for a pre, but can stretch more for a dac/pre combo The headphone aspect is the least important variable as I mostly listen to speakers. Thank you.

I think someone liked the ifi gear. I'm hesitant because the tube is soldered to the board.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Tomy2Tone on 19 Nov 2014, 10:32 pm
Is there any general consensus that ASIDE from power output the Crown XLS 1500, XLS 2000 and XLS 2500 are all the same in terms of SOUND QUALITY?

Looking at purchasing one, so I'd like to be sure.

Thank you.

I believe OzarkTom has had all three at one time or another and said they all have the same sonic character but I'm sure he could chime in to tell a little more if he wanted.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Tomy2Tone on 19 Nov 2014, 10:52 pm
Tom,
Didn't you have the Aluminati X2 amps in your system and how do they compare to the Crowns?

Yes I still have the X2 and think it's a really good amp as well. I haven't had it in my system for a little while since I've been playing with the crowns so I'll do my best to compare by memory.

Forgive me if I don't make any sense in trying to describe the differences but the X2 amp replaced a pair of W4S sx500 monoblocks and immediately I remembered the X2 being a much more precise and clear sounding amp. It had a little less weight to the sound than the sx500's but I liked that vocals were much more easy to hear and background detail was really good.

The crown seems to be just as detailed but voices are now more forward. It's almost like the front man is literally in front singing. While the X2 has a lower noise floor than the crown to my ears the crown is a little smoother sounding, which DaveC113 said could be a result of intentional distortion to sound more tube like. The crown also seems to be a little more 3d like in its soundstage.

I think if you had copper cables with the X2 and silver cables with the crown you could have a similar sounding amp but I have not done any experiments of sort. Physically the X2 is a much better looking amp for obvious reasons and runs very cool.

Hopefully that explains a little.

Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: cab on 19 Nov 2014, 10:54 pm
Is this the Aluminati with the Pascal modules?
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Tomy2Tone on 19 Nov 2014, 11:02 pm
Is this the Aluminati with the Pascal modules?

Yes, it uses the S-PRO2 module. It seemed to have gotten better remarks than the M-PRO module when I read a 6 moons review on the Gato Dia 400 and 250.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: cab on 19 Nov 2014, 11:16 pm
Be interesting to compare the new Anaview with the ncore and Pascal....
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: OzarkTom on 19 Nov 2014, 11:31 pm
Is there any general consensus that ASIDE from power output the Crown XLS 1500, XLS 2000 and XLS 2500 are all the same in terms of SOUND QUALITY?
Looking at purchasing one, so I'd like to be sure. Thank you.

I think someone liked the ifi gear. I'm hesitant because the tube is soldered to the board.

Sound quality on all three are the same, and I am also running the Itube. This combo is definately a big bang for the bucks. Tube life on the Ifi Itube is a very long time, you might have to do a search on that. And once you get hooked on the 3D circuit, it will be very hard to give that up even if you buy another pre-amp. Frankly, I wish every amp on the market have this 3D circuit and have a remote to be able to engage or disengage it.

At these prices the Crowns are, I don't know why they could not have afford to give us a remote volume control. :D
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Tomy2Tone on 19 Nov 2014, 11:39 pm
Be interesting to compare the new Anaview with the ncore and Pascal....

I believe the D-sonic amps are supposed to have the latest Anaview modules but I have not heard or read any impressions.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Russell Dawkins on 19 Nov 2014, 11:42 pm
Is there any general consensus that ASIDE from power output the Crown XLS 1500, XLS 2000 and XLS 2500 are all the same in terms of SOUND QUALITY?
Looking at purchasing one, so I'd like to be sure. Thank you.

Seems to me I read that Crown employees were buying the 2000s and 2500s for their own use. Don't know why, though. They do weigh about 2 lb more than the 1000 and 1500 and are  2-odd inches deeper.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: OzarkTom on 19 Nov 2014, 11:49 pm

The crown seems to be just as detailed but voices are now more forward. It's almost like the front man is literally in front singing.

It makes sense that Crown would voice their amps more upfront since they are used as pro amps for PA and concerts.

As soon as I get the amp back from the cryo man next week and see how it sounds, I will probably send my other 1500 in and get it cryo'd. If I don't send it in you know what that means. That is when I will hook these up as monos and I will give you the results.

Gee, I have never had 1550 WPC into a 4 ohm load. :o
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: WireNut on 20 Nov 2014, 12:07 am
I just don't understand dropping ANY component in 300 below temperatures.
That's for another thread tho.

Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: OzarkTom on 20 Nov 2014, 12:10 am
Seems to me I read that Crown employees were buying the 2000s and 2500s for their own use. Don't know why, though. They do weigh about 2 lb more than the 1000 and 1500 and are  2-odd inches deeper.

I kept going back and forth between the 1500 and 2000. Just when I thought I heard something different, I would switch but back and found the same. Both amps has the same vocals, soundstage, depth, and detail. The 2500's usually go for $400 used, you can buy 2-1500's for $400 and have dual monos. I saw quite a few 1000's on Craiglist for $150, I am tempted to see how that one sounds.

If I was a Crown employee and got their discount, I would probably buy a 2500. It has more weight, more power, and some here might like the extra two inches in depth.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: sonicxtc on 20 Nov 2014, 12:18 am
Quote
Seems to me I read that Crown employees were buying the 2000s and 2500s for their own use. Don't know why, though. They do weigh about 2 lb more than the 1000 and 1500 and are  2-odd inches deeper.
Yes, I'd read that too--but only from ONE source-- and posted it in the other Crown thread. I simply don't know WHAT the differences are between the models.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Folsom on 20 Nov 2014, 12:27 am
(http://tiggersound2.com/upload/imagesMember/2010/11/27/12002_1290817071.jpg)

See the quad cap bank in the back? 1500 only has two in the PFC reservoir. Unfortunately they didn't arrange them for cancellation on the 2500, and no cancellation on the 1500. They both lack it on the output to the amplification section. The heatsinks help some as shields, but not as much for what the caps are putting out.

That being said, look directly in front of the close heatsinks in picture. On the PCB board there is the drive section. Under the clips, the SS steel looking things is the actual amplification switching devices. The 1500 only has one clip on each heatsink, so just 4x total devices. Given that they parallel them in the 1500, I don't think more or less would affect sound.

Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: OzarkTom on 20 Nov 2014, 12:42 am
Some topology info from the development team.  Not sure if it will be of any assistance.   Reads a bit like a brochure.
http://www.prosoundweb.com/article/designer_notebook_inside_new_crown_xls_series_power_amplifiers/

According to this excellent article that noway posted, the designer team did everything they could to get the same performance out of the whole series.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: lowtech on 20 Nov 2014, 12:48 am
See the quad cap bank in the back? 1500 only has two in the PFC reservoir. Unfortunately they didn't arrange them correctly on any of the amps so their fields don't cancel. If they did, the 2500 would most likely be better, if detectable.

Since when are capacitors sensitive to "fields"?  Additionally, they are power supply caps, so once they're charged they're subject to DC... so there are no fields... created... or to be sensitive to.  :slap:
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Folsom on 20 Nov 2014, 01:12 am
I'm sorry but that's a discussion that will hijack the thread. If what you believed were true then Bybee music rails wouldn't exist, power conditioners would be useless, and there wouldn't be an input filter to this amp.

All capacitors have their own field btw. Having them arranged properly reduces resonation.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: *Scotty* on 20 Nov 2014, 01:30 am
I am not understanding this either, maybe you could start a thread in the Lab Circle and explain this. The external aluminum case of the cap has the full rail voltage on it with a corresponding field around it, but how on earth can you orient the caps cancel the field out, it is shaped like the can and is symmetrical. There will be distortion of the field if two caps are placed within a certain proximity to one another regardless.
Scotty
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Tomy2Tone on 20 Nov 2014, 01:53 am
It makes sense that Crown would voice their amps more upfront since they are used as pro amps for PA and concerts.

As soon as I get the amp back from the cryo man next week and see how it sounds, I will probably send my other 1500 in and get it cryo'd. If I don't send it in you know what that means. That is when I will hook these up as monos and I will give you the results.

Gee, I have never had 1550 WPC into a 4 ohm load. :o

Would you mind giving a brief overview of the cryo process in regards to something like a piece of audio equipment. How long does the process take and in what type of medium is it performed?

Once you get the 1500 back will it take another 100-200hrs to break in again? Just curious how this is all done.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Folsom on 20 Nov 2014, 02:13 am
I am not understanding this either, maybe you could start a thread in the Lab Circle and explain this. The external aluminum case of the cap has the full rail voltage on it with a corresponding field around it, but how on earth can you orient the caps cancel the field out, it is shaped like the can and is symmetrical. There will be distortion of the field if two caps are placed within a certain proximity to one another regardless.
Scotty

Most people don't care, but it has an affect.  Here's a thread.  (http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=130422.new#new)
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Occam on 20 Nov 2014, 02:25 am
Most people don't care, but it has an affect.  Here's a thread.  (http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=130422.new#new)

before you start that thread, you might want to investigate the difference between electrostatic coupling (capacitive) and electromagnetic coupling (inductive). And as Scotty (that rapscallion) said, the cylindrical surface of a can capacitor is sitting at the positive voltage....

EDIT: or frigg'n actually read your reference -
Quote
Interference: Inductors may affect nearby components on a circuit board with their magnetic fields, which can extend significant distances beyond the inductor. This is especially true if there are other inductors nearby on the circuit board. If the magnetic fields of two or more inductors are able to "link" with each others' turns of wire, there will be mutual inductance present in the circuit as well as self-inductance, which could very well cause unwanted effects. This is another reason why circuit designers tend to choose capacitors over inductors to perform similar tasks: capacitors inherently contain their respective electric fields neatly within the component package and therefore do not typically generate any "mutual" effects with other components.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Folsom on 20 Nov 2014, 02:29 am
It only has the purpose to reduce magnetic. (That can get exaggerated from inertia)
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: OzarkTom on 20 Nov 2014, 03:01 am
Would you mind giving a brief overview of the cryo process in regards to something like a piece of audio equipment. How long does the process take and in what type of medium is it performed?

Once you get the 1500 back will it take another 100-200hrs to break in again? Just curious how this is all done.

I am the last person to ask about the cryo process on how it is done. I was one of the biggest skeptics of them all on freezing audio equipment. I often laughed about it. I sent my Itube in a few months ago after reading a rave review on another forum. The review was right, much, much better. That cryo cost me $20 plus the shipping there and back. I also bought a cryo'd power cord for the Itube plus a Astron power supply for $115, overall it improved the Itube over 200%. It was clearly a night and day improvement.

The cryoman said the amp was going in the machine today. Then he lets it burn in for 48 hours after freezing and ships it back to me. I will let the amp burn in another 100 hours to make sure the amp sounds it's best. If there is only a 5-10% improvement, I won't bother to ship the other amp back. If it is clearly 20% better or more, my other amp will be going to him.

I am still somewhat a skeptic, or I would ship my Sony music player and my Job amp in. The Crown I sent cost me $200, so to add another $65 or so is not going to cost me much more than the price of a tube these days.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: ZAKski288 on 20 Nov 2014, 03:08 am
If I was a Crown employee and got their discount, I would probably buy a 2500. It has more weight, more power, and some here might like the extra two inches in depth.
[/quote ]


OzarkTom , You are exactly right , Back in the late 80's I brought a complete system from someone who worked at Crown. At that time they could buy a new system every two years at a huge discount and most bought and then sold them at a profit.   ZAK
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: dlaloum on 20 Nov 2014, 03:17 am
A while back I contacted Anthony Gallo about whether to run two amps biamped or configure them as bridged monoblocks into the Gallo Ref's.

Interestingly he said that the CDT tweeter on the speakers tend not to like bridged amp configurations. No further details were provided (although I do know that the CDT tweeter provides a capacitive load...)

I would probably have gone for the XLS1500, if it wasn't for the fact that Gallo use a 500W Spectron for show demo's - so I figured I might as well go for the one in the range that is as close as possible to that power level!

150W/channel of several different class AB amps didn't cut the mustard - sometimes there is no substitute for sheer grunt.

The sound is definitely clearer, smoother, and more detailed, without getting that nasty etched/bright tone that some amps have.
The combo is very close to a good electrostatic setup (from memory), whereas with 150Wx4 of class AB feeding into it, it was definitely a sloid notch down from ESL levels of performance.

With most speakers I suspect an XLS1500 will do brilliantly, but a speaker with an impedance that drops really low or a capacitive/reactive setup may need a bit more, and may not like the bridged setup....
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: guest61169 on 20 Nov 2014, 06:09 am
...
On a separate note, does anyone have a suggestion for possible dac/pre/hp or pre with headphone output they think would be a great match with the Crown XLS in a second system?...

I use a Benchmark DAC-1 and you might be able to find one used for $500.   
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: dlaloum on 20 Nov 2014, 07:33 am
I picked up a Mytek Stereo96 DAC for around $300 - has headphone output (very good quality one!) as well as pro level balanced (as well as line level) outs.
No USB, but the sound is quite exceptional - it is another bit of pro gear which works well at home, and should be a perfect match with the XLS
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Russell Dawkins on 20 Nov 2014, 07:45 am
Then there is the ifi Micro iDSD DAC with the killer headphone amp, designed by Thorsten Loesch:
http://ifi-audio.com/portfolio-view/micro-idsd/

It's $499 full list.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: OzarkTom on 20 Nov 2014, 08:05 am
The there is the ifi Micro iDSD DAC with the killer headphone amp, designed by Thorsten Loesch:
http://ifi-audio.com/portfolio-view/micro-idsd/

It's $499 full list.

My buddy Rex is using this one with his Crown 1500 and is very pleased with the combo. It adds the 3D circuit to the system also. Thorsten should market his 3D circuit to a lot of  other audio vendors.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Russell Dawkins on 20 Nov 2014, 08:33 am
One of the little features of the ifi Micro DAC that appeals to me is the polarity switch on the side.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: rodge827 on 20 Nov 2014, 11:54 am
One of the little features of the ifi Micro DAC that appeals to me is the polarity switch on the side.

I like that it has an internal battery for power and has enough juice to power difficult to drive head phones lie the HE-6.

http://ifi-audio.com/portfolio-view/micro-idsd/
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: jk@home on 20 Nov 2014, 01:33 pm
My buddy Rex is using this one with his Crown 1500 and is very pleased with the combo. It adds the 3D circuit to the system also. Thorsten should market his 3D circuit to a lot of  other audio vendors.

Is this the same friend who was using a JOB on KEF LS50s? If so, he's using the Crown on the KEF?

One of the questions I have had is if the Crowns ran in mono have the same limitations as a class A/B amp. The KEFs dip down to 3 ohms at certain frequencies, and I am concerned if the Crowns ran in mono will have a problem with this load. Not that a single amp would have any problem driving this speaker, I already know that will work.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: OzarkTom on 20 Nov 2014, 01:43 pm
Is this the same friend who was using a JOB on KEF LS50s? If so, he's using the Crown on the KEF?

Yes it is. He likes the Crown so well, he is selling his Job. One amp is all you need for power on the KEF's, but the Crowns are rated down to a 2ohm load even in monos.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: jk@home on 20 Nov 2014, 03:08 pm
Thanks. I'm going to give them another try, once I get a few other items payed off.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: rollo on 20 Nov 2014, 03:40 pm
One of the little features of the ifi Micro DAC that appeals to me is the polarity switch on the side.


    Wouldn't buy a DAC without one. +1

charles
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: I.Greyhound Fan on 20 Nov 2014, 04:51 pm
Is the Crown an Integrated amp or do you need a preamp? 

Does any one know how it compares to their other amps like the XT-i's?
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: roscoeiii on 20 Nov 2014, 06:56 pm
You can't switch inputs and although it has gain controls, I would use something as a preamp with it. Or a DAC, etc with a volume control.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: I.Greyhound Fan on 20 Nov 2014, 08:21 pm
You can't switch inputs and although it has gain controls, I would use something as a preamp with it. Or a DAC, etc with a volume control.


This would probably work well-

http://schiit.com/products/sys-passive-preamp


A Grant Fidelity DAC-11 would probably be a good match as well.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: WireNut on 20 Nov 2014, 09:42 pm
There is a Crown XLS1500 for sale on Agon right now for $255.00. Seems like a good price.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: a.wayne on 20 Nov 2014, 10:38 pm
Any updates .......? 
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: wushuliu on 20 Nov 2014, 10:41 pm
Is Jackman okay?
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: roscoeiii on 20 Nov 2014, 10:48 pm

This would probably work well-

http://schiit.com/products/sys-passive-preamp


A Grant Fidelity DAC-11 would probably be a good match as well.

The iTube that OzarkTom uses may also be a great bet, since he is raving about it. Though you'd need an input selector if you need multiple inputs.

No personal experience with it myself, but a lot going for it. And a lot of places that you could get one to audition. Or who offer a solid return policy.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Rclark on 20 Nov 2014, 10:59 pm
I take threads like these as tacit proof that class d and digital technology in general has taken over and is superior. When you have class d amps such as Ncore and all that follow being lauded for superlative, unmatched sound quality (unthinkable merely 3 years ago), and high rez digital audio replacing vinyl at high end trade shows (again, unthinkable until very recently), we have crossed that bridge. Cat's out of the bag, genie out of the bottle, no going back, etc, etc.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: SteveFord on 20 Nov 2014, 11:21 pm
We'll see.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: roscoeiii on 20 Nov 2014, 11:26 pm
I take threads like these as tacit proof that class d and digital technology in general has taken over and is superior. When you have class d amps such as Ncore and all that follow being lauded for superlative, unmatched sound quality (unthinkable merely 3 years ago), and high rez digital audio replacing vinyl at high end trade shows (again, unthinkable until very recently), we have crossed that bridge. Cat's out of the bag, genie out of the bottle, no going back, etc, etc.

C'mon, let's not go overboard with "taken over and is superior" since that gives the impressions that one size fits all in terms of speaker matching and personal preference.

But I would say that this suggests that it shows further proof that some Class D models can provide excellent sound, as well as tremendous bang for your buck.

But with amps, as with much other gear, YMMV.

And based on RMAF and AXPONA, I certainly wouldn't say that digital is replacing vinyl. Both are very well represented. And I think it is also very safe to say that we are in the midst of a vinyl renaissance. From what I can tell, the recent mono Beatles set on vinyl seems to be preferred to the mono CD set. But let's please not get sidetracked into a vinyl vs digital sources discussion in an amp thread.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: OzarkTom on 20 Nov 2014, 11:30 pm
I take threads like these as tacit proof that class d and digital technology in general has taken over and is superior. When you have class d amps such as Ncore and all that follow being lauded for superlative, unmatched sound quality (unthinkable merely 3 years ago), and high rez digital audio replacing vinyl at high end trade shows (again, unthinkable until very recently), we have crossed that bridge. Cat's out of the bag, genie out of the bottle, no going back, etc, etc.

Crown came out with this one 4 1/2 years ago, way before the Ncores.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: OzarkTom on 20 Nov 2014, 11:40 pm
The iTube that OzarkTom uses may also be a great bet, since he is raving about it. Though you'd need an input selector if you need multiple inputs.

No personal experience with it myself, but a lot going for it. And a lot of places that you could get one to audition. Or who offer a solid return policy.

The Cryoman compared the cryo'd Itube to a stock Dodd tube preamp. The Itube was much better. Only after he cryo'd the Dodd, did the Dodd came fairly close to the Itube. That says quite a bit about the SQ of the Itube at it's price.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: roscoeiii on 20 Nov 2014, 11:43 pm
The Cryoman compared the cryo'd Itube to a stock Dodd tube preamp. The Itube was much better. Only after he cryo'd the Dodd, did the Dodd came fairly close to the Itube. That says quite a bit about the SQ of the Itube at it's price.

Tom, would you say that the iTube makes the Crown a bit more laid back or a bit less forward? I'm trying to get an idea of its contribution in your system...
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: S Clark on 20 Nov 2014, 11:44 pm
I'm on the list to take a listen to hear what Crown is all about.  I'll be comparing it to tube amps and a Moscode 401. I've heard an NCore 400 and spent many hours with the Rogue Sphinx (Ncore 180 ?)... and I haven't sold my other amps to jump on the Ncore wagon. 
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: S Clark on 20 Nov 2014, 11:47 pm
The Cryoman compared the cryo'd Itube to a stock Dodd tube preamp. The Itube was much better. Only after he cryo'd the Dodd, did the Dodd came fairly close to the Itube. That says quite a bit about the SQ of the Itube at it's price.
Now that's a stunning statement... especially since the Dodd was THE latest and greatest giant killer at $3300 five or six years ago!
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: WireNut on 20 Nov 2014, 11:48 pm
Learn me something.
How can a Crown XLS amp at 11-12 pounds out preform my Audio Research 150.2 class T amp at 45 pounds in the bass region from 150Hz down to 20hz.
My audio research 150.2 amp had the best bottom end I've heard in 30 years of swopping power amps.

Had to sell the 150.2 recently due to job layoff.
When I get back on my feet I might buy a XLS2500 for my bass cabinets.
At $550.00 for a 2500, if it does the job on the low end that's really all I need.

Don't have the funds anymore to spend 2-3k for an amp to drive my bass cabs.

Will an XLS deliver on the bottom end  :?:






 
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Quiet Earth on 20 Nov 2014, 11:54 pm
...and high rez digital audio replacing vinyl at high end trade shows

Last summer,at the California Audio show, a friend and I asked several of the exibitors why they were playing computer audio files rather than vinyl or a good sounding CD player. The answer was always "because it is more convenient", not because it sounds better.

Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: dlaloum on 21 Nov 2014, 12:30 am

Will an XLS deliver on the bottom end  :?:

It does on my Gallo Ref 3.2's. (goes down to a real 24Hz)

There was some discussion on AVSforum about there being a rolloff below 20Hz - but there was nothing definitive, no measurements etc... and there were people arguing both ways... in any case concensus on that forum seemed to be that there was plenty of grunt even down below 20Hz, with quite a few Home Theater bass freaks buying "fleets" of the XLS's to run an astounding number of subwoofers (like 16 subs in a single room) - with the objective of achieving 10Hz at full spl capability.

From my own experience and measurements - the XLS2500 just keeps on giving regardless of speaker impedance (or capacitance) and the power doubles down (or close to it) to 4ohm and again into 2ohm (no published spec for 1 ohm, and I have seen no measurements).

Wary audiophiles have been using this series to drive their subs for the last 4 years, adventurous ones then experimented with them in the mids / full range, I am running them as my main amps, with one for woofer and the other for full range, and my results are superior to anything else I have tried with these speakers.

If you are geographically close enough to get on the trial chain for the XLS1500 - you should hop onto that list and have a listen, if not you may need to spend the money and get one to try, like I did.
At used pricing, you won't lose money on the deal if you choose to sell it again - and with a 3 year transferable warranty, most of the used units are still covered - so there is little risk.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: rajacat on 21 Nov 2014, 12:34 am
Last summer,at the California Audio show, a friend and I asked several of the exibitors why they were playing computer audio files rather than vinyl or a good sounding CD player. The answer was always "because it is more convenient", not because it sounds better.
Computer files should sound better than most CD players because there's no spinning disk with laser that contributes to distortion.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Quiet Earth on 21 Nov 2014, 12:45 am
They should, but they don't.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: dlaloum on 21 Nov 2014, 12:49 am
They should, but they don't.

They sound just as good if you put effort into getting the source right - making sure there are no power issues/noise, or using a DAC that properly reclocks and is high quality...
Running from a stock PC and sound card is never going to do the job...
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Tomy2Tone on 21 Nov 2014, 12:54 am
It does on my Gallo Ref 3.2's. (goes down to a real 24Hz)

There was some discussion on AVSforum about there being a rolloff below 20Hz - but there was nothing definitive, no measurements etc... and there were people arguing both ways... in any case concensus on that forum seemed to be that there was plenty of grunt even down below 20Hz, with quite a few Home Theater bass freaks buying "fleets" of the XLS's to run an astounding number of subwoofers (like 16 subs in a single room) - with the objective of achieving 10Hz at full spl capability.

From my own experience and measurements - the XLS2500 just keeps on giving regardless of speaker impedance (or capacitance) and the power doubles down (or close to it) to 4ohm and again into 2ohm (no published spec for 1 ohm, and I have seen no measurements).

Wary audiophiles have been using this series to drive their subs for the last 4 years, adventurous ones then experimented with them in the mids / full range, I am running them as my main amps, with one for woofer and the other for full range, and my results are superior to anything else I have tried with these speakers.

If you are geographically close enough to get on the trial chain for the XLS1500 - you should hop onto that list and have a listen, if not you may need to spend the money and get one to try, like I did.
At used pricing, you won't lose money on the deal if you choose to sell it again - and with a 3 year transferable warranty, most of the used units are still covered - so there is little risk.

Hi David, what do you use as a preamp in your system? Biamping the way you do has me intrigued. I have some new speakers coming in a couple of months and they will have the ability to be biamped.

Also, have you ever tried using your 2500's as monos with jumper cables at your speaker binding posts? This was going to be my first attempt when the new speakers arrive but biamping sounds possible as well. I've always read that biamping doesn't perform any better but maybe it depends on the speaker and the amp involved. Thanks!
-Tom
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: S Clark on 21 Nov 2014, 01:03 am
They should, but they don't.
Regarding files compared to the original cd...
Mine do.  Using a MS-1 from our fellow member HAL, it's quite clear that the file plays better than the cd... for me.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: dlaloum on 21 Nov 2014, 01:11 am
Biamping done right requires the crossover to be before the power amp - so the power amps are then only amplifying the part of the spectrum they need to.

Just doing two amps in parallel both doing full range and feeding it to the speaker doesn't do much!

The XLS series has an onboard configurable crossover, so you can feed both amps the full range signal and then configure one with a Low Pass filter and the other with a High Pass filter - set the respective filters to the right frequency for your woofer crossover and you are on your way!

Currently they are feeding off the pre-out of my Onkyo TX-SR876 Receiver.

I have also run them directly of my Mytek Stereo96 DAC.

Either way, the XLS is set up to allow "daisy chaining" you can feed the signal into the first then daisy chain down to the second.

I run into the XLR inputs on the first which is my full range power amp, and then use custom 1/4" jack cables to daisy chain down to the second XLS which runs the woofers.

NOTE: the Gallo Ref 3 speakers are designed to be run full range on the standard input, and have a second voice coil input for the woofer - so the woofer driver receives the post crossover signal from the standard input of the speaker, in addition to the seperately powered signal applied to the 2nd voice coil.
It is an unusual design!

I have done some experiments with standard biamping, (ie running the first amp crossed over rather than full range), with inconclusive results.

The speakers designer recommended running the amps in stereo mode, and not to bridge the amps, He also stated that the 2nd voice coil drive with the full range main is the best way to run them (who am I to argue !).

Setup is as easy as it can get for biamping, as it only takes a few seconds to set the crossovers on the front of the amps, and as long as you have the right cables for daisy chaining, all you need is a standard stereo input.

According to the Crown tech I talked to, all the inputs are interconnected internally so you can use the RCA's and then use the 1/4" jacks as an output, or vice versa etc...

Regardless of what Gallo said, I have also been toying with the idea of trying them as bridged monoblocks... just to see what they sound like that way.

Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: SteveFord on 21 Nov 2014, 01:18 am
To help derail this thread even further, my guess is that the people at Rogue Audio are on the right track with the Class D amps.
Use the solid state for the punch, the tubes for the soundstage and to help tailor the overall sound as well.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: roscoeiii on 21 Nov 2014, 01:22 am
To help derail this thread even further, my guess is that the people at Rogue Audio are on the right track with the Class D amps.
Use the solid state for the punch, the tubes for the soundstage and to help tailor the overall sound as well.

Quite a reasonable suggestion. That iTube is very intriguing for that reason.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: I.Greyhound Fan on 21 Nov 2014, 01:49 am
I take threads like these as tacit proof that class d and digital technology in general has taken over and is superior. When you have class d amps such as Ncore and all that follow being lauded for superlative, unmatched sound quality (unthinkable merely 3 years ago), and high rez digital audio replacing vinyl at high end trade shows (again, unthinkable until very recently), we have crossed that bridge. Cat's out of the bag, genie out of the bottle, no going back, etc, etc.


While I agree that digital is here to stay I would not say that it is superior just yet.  I have heard a pair of Ncore mono blocks in my system and they were lifeless and flat compared to my Pass X250 amp.  I have a Class D Audio CDA 254 and it can't hold a candle to the Pass and is inferior to my Parasound A21.  However, I am completely astounded at how good my Parts Express DTA100a digital amp sounds for the $50 I paid on sale.  I have it paired with a good DAC and some Monitor Audio S1 speakers.  I could almost be happy with it as my main system it sounds that good.

I have been impressed by a pair of Nuforce Model 9se monoblocks however but they still are not on par with my Pass. 

Now I have not heard all the digital amps out there and I am sure that there are some great ones.  And I do agree that digital amps are the future due to cost.  My Pass amp weighs in at 105 pounds and my Parasound is 60 pounds.  Most digital amps are 10 pounds or less.  There are huge profit margins to be had by manufacturers in digital technology.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: a.wayne on 21 Nov 2014, 02:51 am
I take threads like these as tacit proof that class d and digital technology in general has taken over and is superior. When you have class d amps such as Ncore and all that follow being lauded for superlative, unmatched sound quality (unthinkable merely 3 years ago), and high rez digital audio replacing vinyl at high end trade shows (again, unthinkable until very recently), we have crossed that bridge. Cat's out of the bag, genie out of the bottle, no going back, etc, etc.

Sooooooo  Class D has "unmatched" sound quality huh  .. :)
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: a.wayne on 21 Nov 2014, 02:58 am
Computer files should sound better than most CD players because there's no spinning disk with laser that contributes to distortion.

Not my experience , Cd's still sound better on Cd players , computers sounding better on high res files only .....
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: rajacat on 21 Nov 2014, 03:26 am
Not my experience , Cd's still sound better on Cd players , computers sounding better on high res files .....
This would be a good subject for debate but not in this thread.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: roscoeiii on 21 Nov 2014, 03:31 am
This would be a good subject for debate but not in this thread.

+1
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: a.wayne on 21 Nov 2014, 04:10 am
Has the Crown left Jack yet, Roscoe are you next ...? :scratch:
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: roscoeiii on 21 Nov 2014, 04:30 am
Has the Crown left Jack yet, Roscoe are you next ...? :scratch:

Haven't heard from Jack yet. I know he is busy with work and that's meant a lot of traavel for him.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: a.wayne on 21 Nov 2014, 04:34 am
Thanks  for the update ..........
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: WireNut on 21 Nov 2014, 09:30 am


The XLS series has an onboard configurable crossover,



Can the onboard crossover be bi-passed or disabled?
I already have a crossover for my bi-amp system.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: rodge827 on 21 Nov 2014, 11:38 am
Since I guess I started a make shift tour of one of these amps I figured I'll dedicate a thread to it and all things Crown XLS. Whether you want to cryo it, mono it, feed it to sharks, throw it off a cliff and see if it's still ticking(not the tour amp  :nono:).... whatever floats your boat.

Tour as of now...

Jackman/Roscoeiii- Chicago

rodge827- Jersey


Has the Crown left Jack yet, Roscoe are you next ...? :scratch:

  :dunno: :wave: :sleep: :sleep:

Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: dlaloum on 21 Nov 2014, 12:27 pm
Can the onboard crossover be bi-passed or disabled?
I already have a crossover for my bi-amp system.

Yes

Default setup is straight pass through stereo

Worth checking whether the peak limiter is switched on too, as it does degrade the sound somewhat.... and for our home use purposes really shouldn't be needed.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Tomy2Tone on 21 Nov 2014, 11:49 pm
  :dunno: :wave: :sleep: :sleep:

I put in a pm to Jack to see how everything's going. Hopefully we'll hear from him soon!
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: rodge827 on 21 Nov 2014, 11:57 pm
No worries just adding to the "fill" and waiting on Jacks'  :bomb:!
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Folsom on 22 Nov 2014, 12:42 am
Sadly the best caps to replace in this unit don't have an equivlant in correct size. The good news are they're the cheapest in a catagory that doesn't have anything truly "bad".
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Odal3 on 22 Nov 2014, 05:40 pm
How does the sound compare to the TPA3116 and the other popular amp boards (a side from the big diff in power rating)?

Been looking for a used Crown 1500  since the summer but  haven't been able to find one in Indianapolis for the prices you have quoted? Where do you find the used ones other than Craigslist or ebay?Are there any good sites for used pro gear?
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: *Scotty* on 22 Nov 2014, 06:05 pm
What is the rail voltage on the 1500?
Scotty
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: jackman on 22 Nov 2014, 06:13 pm
Hey Guys,
I just sent Tommy a message and texted Roscoe. I'll post a detailed review later today. My travel schedule did not allow me to give the amp a fair listen at reasonable volumes until this week. I've had a chance to put it through its paces and compare directly with the NCore. 

Wirenut, the Crown, which weighs almost nothing, can drive your subs without breaking a sweat. Even if you listen to chest thumping bass-heavy music, I suspect this little amp will not be short on power. It is very powerful and I've been pushing it hard all week and have not been able to get it to clip. The fan barely goes on and it runs dead silent. When my sub amp goes, Crown K1, I'm replacing it with the new Crown.  If the NCore ever blows up...you will have to wait and I'll let everyone know in graphic detail.

Thanks and thanks again Tommy for letting me borrow this impressive amp. My view of pro class D amps has changed considerably in the past week.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: WireNut on 22 Nov 2014, 06:55 pm

Wirenut, the Crown, which weighs almost nothing, can drive your subs without breaking a sweat. Even if you listen to chest thumping bass-heavy music, I suspect this little amp will not be short on power. It is very powerful and I've been pushing it hard all week and have not been able to get it to clip. The fan barely goes on and it runs dead silent. When my sub amp goes, Crown K1, I'm replacing it with the new Crown.  If the NCore ever blows up...you will have to wait and I'll let everyone know in graphic detail.


Thanks Jackman, that's good to know. After selling my Audio Research 150.2 amp recently due to job layoff I think a Crown XLS just might be the ticket for my next sub amp. I don't think I need (and can't afford) something like an Audio Research amp to drive my subs again. For $550.00 for a new XLS2500 that will probably be the way I go for my next bass amp purchase after I start my new job next week.

BTW, do you all know if the XLS units are a true balanced design or do they convert a balanced line to unbalanced after the input?
Some power amps I've owned in the pass have converted the signal.


 
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: rascal on 22 Nov 2014, 07:16 pm
I have xls2000 and wow it is a great Amp for the money  :thumb: Thank you guys for pointing me to this Amp.

I have nc400 monos- and I have to say when listening to music- at moderate to louder volumes IMHO ncore sound more polished, refined and how shall I say effect was musical- and pleasant to listen to for long hours. With XLS I felt it was a bit shrill or not refined but it did not cut it out for me as amp for mains. It is as if I am comparing a hifi to smoother audiophile gear - and NOT reaching the last 10%. 

Now I do not know if modded xls will make the cut?

I am not selling my nc400 amps- they are keepers for now even at 4x the price  :green: I am keeping XLS2000 for my front subs- they are better than internal (older) bash I have- the difference was there after careful level matching

I am not a nc400 fanboy - in my set up (B&W w modded northcreek Xover) nc400 has not been best amp to grace my system- BAT amps have sounded best to me- but they are so much more expensive IMHO but nc400 almost gets me there.

YMMV but I have to say that you owe it to yourself to own XL2000/2500 amps- they are keepers :thumb:
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: OzarkTom on 22 Nov 2014, 07:27 pm
I have xls2000 and wow it is a great Amp for the money  :thumb: Thank you guys for pointing me to this Amp.

I have nc400 monos- and I have to say when listening to music- at moderate to louder volumes IMHO ncore sound more polished, refined and how shall I say effect was musical- and pleasant to listen to for long hours. With XLS I felt it was a bit shrill or not refined but it did not cut it out for me as amp for mains. It is as if I am comparing a hifi to smoother audiophile gear - and NOT reaching the last 10%. 

Now I do not know if modded xls will make the cut?

I am not selling my nc400 amps- they are keepers for now even at 4x the price  :green: I am keeping XLS2000 for my front subs- they are better than internal (older) bash I have- the difference was there after careful level matching

I am not a nc400 fanboy - in my set up (B&W w modded northcreek Xover) nc400 has not been best amp to grace my system- BAT amps have sounded best to me- but they are so much more expensive IMHO but nc400 almost gets me there.

YMMV but I have to say that you owe it to yourself to own XL2000/2500 amps- they are keepers :thumb:

How many hours do you have on your Crown?
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: a.wayne on 22 Nov 2014, 07:31 pm
Thanks Jack , what are the main speakers you're using ...?

@Rascal what model B&W ..?
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Folsom on 22 Nov 2014, 07:44 pm
What is the rail voltage on the 1500?
Scotty

The first section is straight rectified 120v (which is reformed to AC pre-transformer). The drive section is something lower, the caps are only rated at 100v. Then there's the front end that's probably 12v given that there's as low as 16v caps on it. There's some taps to measure on the front end, but given that there's no replacement for some of the caps in the size needed, I didn't find a reason to measure the voltages. If you'd like I'll check the exact rail voltages.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: rascal on 22 Nov 2014, 08:38 pm
How many hours do you have on your Crown?

I bought mine used (it was 3 months old, have receipt) but let them play on loop for 2 days continuous before careful listening. I first adjusted trim knob to middle, and then later level matched with my oldie RS meter. Was set to bypass.

I wish I could have chosen XLS so I could sell my ncores and get $1.6K back :-)

I am planning to buy 2 more- one to replace crown K1 sub amp, and  other to be used in bedroom system. I can sell off my older parasound SS amp.

Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Tomy2Tone on 22 Nov 2014, 08:59 pm
With XLS I felt it was a bit shrill or not refined but it did not cut it out for me as amp for mains.

When I tried my xls 1500 straight from the wall I noticed some harshness or thought it was a bit shrill as you say but after plugging into my conditioner all that went away and it became very smooth.

Curious to see what Jack says about how he has his plugged in. If I were going with passive subs I would definitely use these crown xls's.

Thanks for your input!
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: sonicxtc on 22 Nov 2014, 10:56 pm
re: Pre-amp or pre/dac/hp suggestions for the Crown.

Quote
The iTube that OzarkTom uses may also be a great bet, since he is raving about it. Though you'd need an input selector if you need multiple inputs.

Quote
Then there is the ifi Micro iDSD DAC with the killer headphone amp, designed by Thorsten Loesch:

Thanks Tom, Roscoeiii, Russell and everyone for the feedback.

I'm seriously considering ifi. I can get by with one input.
I'm wondering if anyone has any pro/con/comparison info. between the ifi itube [pre amp only] and the ifi Micro iDSD [dac/pre/hp]. I wrote to ifi and they indicated that
Quote
But, both the iTUBE and micro iDSD have the same analogue volume control - so same sound quality.

Has anyone heard both? Obviously, one is tube, one is solid state, so there must be some difference.
They both have the 3D feature and the iDSD even has the "purifier" built-in.

Don't wish to derail the thread, but a few of you were kind enough to chime in, so I wanted to follow up.

Nice to see the reviews progressing. Thank you.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: roscoeiii on 22 Nov 2014, 11:05 pm
re: Pre-amp or pre/dac/hp suggestions for the Crown.

Thanks Tom, Roscoeiii, Russell and everyone for the feedback.

I'm seriously considering ifi. I can get by with one input.
I'm wondering if anyone has any pro/con/comparison info. between the ifi itube [pre amp only] and the ifi Micro iDSD [dac/pre/hp]. I wrote to ifi and they indicated that
Has anyone heard both? Obviously, one is tube, one is solid state, so there must be some difference.
They both have the 3D feature and the iDSD even has the "purifier" built-in.

Don't wish to derail the thread, but a few of you were kind enough to chime in, so I wanted to follow up.

Nice to see the reviews progressing. Thank you.

2 Questions:

1)  Do you need a DAC or are you interested in changing DACs?

2) Would your system benefit from the addition of tubes? I get the impression that mating the XLS with tubes can be a good match.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: sonicxtc on 22 Nov 2014, 11:18 pm
re: preamp for Crown xls

Quote
2 Questions:

1)  Do you need a DAC or are you interested in changing DACs?

2) Would your system benefit from the addition of tubes? I get the impression that mating the XLS with tubes can be a good match.

1) I have an Audio GD 1.32 [yes, one point 32].  Although I have no issues or objections to the A GD dac, I am receptive to changing dacs. I have ZERO idea how it would compare to the ifi iDSD dac. And, btw, I do not need DSD. Currently = no dsd files, but I read the PWM section of the dac is very good.
If the ifi's dac section is superior, then that would be helpful info.

2) Yes, you make a great point. That's part of the debate: all in one, battery powered, ipurifier built-in, lots of goodies, but no tube VERSUS, the ifi itube pre, which is just a pre.  :scratch:
And, the ifi tube has digitial antidote plus. The ifi DSD = ???? on that feature.
FWIW, the CURRENT speakers are Fritz and known to be a tad on the warm side. So, will that combo really benefit from tubes? 

Thanks Roscoeiii
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: roscoeiii on 22 Nov 2014, 11:24 pm
re: preamp for Crown xls

1) I have an Audio GD 1.32 [yes, one point 32].  Although I have no issues or objections to the A GD dac, I am receptive to changing dacs. I have ZERO idea how it would compare to the ifi iDSD dac. And, btw, I do not need DSD. Currently = no dsd files, but I read the PWM section of the dac is very good.
If the ifi's dac section is superior, then that would be helpful info.

2) Yes, you make a great point. That's part of the debate: all in one, battery powered, ipurifier built-in, lots of goodies, but no tube VERSUS, the ifi itube pre, which is just a pre.  :scratch:
And, the ifi tube has digitial antidote plus. The ifi DSD = ???? on that feature.
FWIW, the CURRENT speakers are Fritz and known to be a tad on the warm side. So, will that combo really benefit from tubes? 

Thanks Roscoeiii

Still haven't heard the XLS, but if the Fritz are warm (great speakers BTW. Love Fritz's stuff) then you may not need the contribution of the tuibe. But all that said, the iFi are sold by folks like Music Direct who have great return policies. And hey, maybe the combo of the iDSD and the iTube is best of all for you? Only on way to find out. that volume control on the iTube  can be disabled so that it just serves as a tibe buffer, IIRC.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: rodge827 on 23 Nov 2014, 01:02 am
that volume control on the iTube  can be disabled so that it just serves as a tibe buffer, IIRC.

Yep, that's how I'm using the iTube at Casa DeRodge.  :D

My Shellby+Krolls don't need no steenkin' 3D feature!   :P
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Bemopti123 on 23 Nov 2014, 03:29 am
Thanks Jack , what are the main speakers you're using ...?

@Rascal what model B&W ..?

With northcreek updated speakers, I think it might be a B&W Matrix 801s or did he just change some regular parts with Northcreek components only? 
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: OzarkTom on 23 Nov 2014, 05:05 am
re: Pre-amp or pre/dac/hp suggestions for the Crown.

I'm seriously considering ifi. I can get by with one input.
I'm wondering if anyone has any pro/con/comparison info. between the ifi itube [pre amp only] and the ifi Micro iDSD [dac/pre/hp]. I wrote to ifi and they indicated that
Has anyone heard both? Obviously, one is tube, one is solid state, so there must be some difference.
They both have the 3D feature and the iDSD even has the "purifier" built-in.

Mt buddy Rex has both, unfortunately the Itube did not make his recent move to Hawaii safely. The Itube will not power on, so he is enjoying the IFI DSD. He moved very shortly after getting the DSD dac, so he has no comparisons that he can make at the moment. But he loves the 3D circuit so much, he will not hook his Sony Z1 until he gets the Itube back and running.

Rex currently has his Job amp and Pre posted on Audiogon for sale if anyone needs to buy them. What is funny, just three weeks ago he said he was never selling his Job amp. Rex says that he is not getting any harshness out of the Crown amp.

Neither am I even with my very dirty AC. The Crown and the Job has been the only two AC amps that I have ever not had any problems here with AC harshness. Even tube amps sounds harsh here on a Friday or a Saturday night until very late hours.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: mresseguie on 23 Nov 2014, 08:13 am
I've been eagerly reading all the comments, debate, and comparisons from the first page of this thread, and I'm sure learning a thing or two about class D amps (no experience with them). Now I find myself wondering if I should buy a 1500 or even a 2500 just to hear how great it is.

I'm also interested in people's impressions of the iFi DACs or pre. However, I find myself concerned that discussion of the iFi equipment might derail or cause too much distraction from the thread. Would you all be interested in a new thread to discuss the DACs and preamp? (I'm not trying to stifle it because I am very interested in these myself.)

Michael
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: dlaloum on 23 Nov 2014, 08:26 am

I'm also interested in people's impressions of the iFi DACs or pre. However, I find myself concerned that discussion of the iFi equipment might derail or cause too much distraction from the thread. Would you all be interested in a new thread to discuss the DACs and preamp? (I'm not trying to stifle it because I am very interested in these myself.)

Michael

 :thumb:
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: sonicxtc on 23 Nov 2014, 01:59 pm
Quote
I'm also interested in people's impressions of the iFi DACs or pre. However, I find myself concerned that discussion of the iFi equipment might derail or cause too much distraction from the thread. Would you all be interested in a new thread to discuss the DACs and preamp? (I'm not trying to stifle it because I am very interested in these myself.) 

Running out the door and will be on the road for hours, so I"ll + 1 this and suggest  mrsseguie or some other volunteer please start such a thread. Thank you.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: rascal on 23 Nov 2014, 08:44 pm
Thanks Jack , what are the main speakers you're using ...?

@Rascal what model B&W ..?

B&W 802 with Northcreek modified crossover (you can buy from Northcreek).  Oppo 105 source, now using Joule Electra tube preamp.

All are connected BPT Sig power conditioner which is connected to Audience ar1p.   
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Folsom on 23 Nov 2014, 09:01 pm
Tom,

Do you have any bi-amp able speakers?

You should try the link system these offers with crossover settings. To me that makes them potentially very valuable since none of the other class D's offer this unique availability of crossovers that totally negates the need for any processor or whatever prior to your amp.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Tomy2Tone on 23 Nov 2014, 09:52 pm
Tom,

Do you have any bi-amp able speakers?

You should try the link system these offers with crossover settings. To me that makes them potentially very valuable since none of the other class D's offer this unique availability of crossovers that totally negates the need for any processor or whatever prior to your amp.

If you're referring to me, no not ATM. I have a pair in the works that will.

Pardon my ignorance, but do you adjust the crossover on the amp according to the crossover in the speaker? Or do you just pick a point that sounds best?
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: roscoeiii on 23 Nov 2014, 10:10 pm
Just a heads up that Jack and I are having a great time with the XLS here. And we had one big surprise here today.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: WireNut on 23 Nov 2014, 10:15 pm
Can't wait to hear about it.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Folsom on 23 Nov 2014, 10:20 pm
If you're referring to me, no not ATM. I have a pair in the works that will.

Pardon my ignorance, but do you adjust the crossover on the amp according to the crossover in the speaker? Or do you just pick a point that sounds best?

I imagine it depends on the speakers. There are some with built in crossovers that are still biamp capable, and others that might bypass. I'm not familiar with enough speakers to really know; but I do know a lot of DIY guys have no crossovers except active. The Linkwitz LX521 are entirely active.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: WireNut on 23 Nov 2014, 10:29 pm

but I do know a lot of DIY guys have no crossovers except active. The Linkwitz LX521 are entirely active.




I've been bi-amping since the 80's.
If the XLS's sound that good, bi-amping or Tri-amping with them wouldn't be all that expensive.
Hmm, I like it.


Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Folsom on 23 Nov 2014, 10:34 pm


I've been bi-amping since the 80's.
If the XLS's sound that good, bi-amping or Tri-amping with them wouldn't be all that expensive.
Hmm, I like it.

All you need is two 1/8in to 1/8in links as far as it appears on the back of them. Funny medium for connection, but it's only got to be about 6in cord or something like that.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: mr_bill on 23 Nov 2014, 10:35 pm
Just a heads up that Jack and I are having a great time with the XLS here. And we had one big surprise here today.

We are hoping that you share with us sometime today.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: OzarkTom on 23 Nov 2014, 10:42 pm
If I ever get time, I need to hook up my powered Infinity subs and play with the high pass crossover. I am sure the Crown will sound better.

Hmmm, I wonder if that is what Roscoe is referring to?
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: SteveFord on 23 Nov 2014, 10:46 pm
Something caught on fire?
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: WireNut on 23 Nov 2014, 10:48 pm
Something caught on fire?

Oh no, say it aint so  :lol:

Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: rodge827 on 23 Nov 2014, 10:56 pm
Gotta laugh at this thread...
Here we are a bunch of grown men waiting around for 2 guy's opinions on the sound of a $400.00 amp. :shake:

When Jack and Roscoe finally get through labor and deliver a review, let's smoke a cigar and pick a name for this baby!  :smoke:

Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: roscoeiii on 24 Nov 2014, 01:20 am
Still wrapping up over here. Patience folks,  patience.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Tomy2Tone on 24 Nov 2014, 01:35 am
The cryoman said the amp was going in the machine today. Then he lets it burn in for 48 hours after freezing and ships it back to me. I will let the amp burn in another 100 hours to make sure the amp sounds it's best. If there is only a 5-10% improvement, I won't bother to ship the other amp back. If it is clearly 20% better or more, my other amp will be going to him.

I am still somewhat a skeptic, or I would ship my Sony music player and my Job amp in. The Crown I sent cost me $200, so to add another $65 or so is not going to cost me much more than the price of a tube these days.

Hey Tom, you think you'll get the cryo crown back before the Thanksgiving weekend? Really interested to see how it turns out. Hopefully in a week or so you can give a thumbs up or down whether it was woth it or not.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: OzarkTom on 24 Nov 2014, 01:45 am
Hey Tom, you think you'll get the cryo crown back before the Thanksgiving weekend? Really interested to see how it turns out. Hopefully in a week or so you can give a thumbs up or down whether it was woth it or not.

I doubt it, the cryoman wanted to burn the amp in for 72 hours so he and a friend can compare it to the amp that he owns. He wants to find out if this is a serious sleeper.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Tomy2Tone on 24 Nov 2014, 01:51 am
I doubt it, the cryoman wanted to burn the amp in for 72 hours so he and a friend can compare it to the amp that he owns. He wants to find out if this is a serious sleeper.

Sounds like you just started another tour!  :lol:

Funny how this amp somehow missed AC after seeing threads from Audioholics and or AVS from a few years back kind of doing what we're doing here.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: dlaloum on 24 Nov 2014, 01:53 am
All you need is two 1/8in to 1/8in links as far as it appears on the back of them. Funny medium for connection, but it's only got to be about 6in cord or something like that.

Thats what I use - two 6" cables tie them together for biamping....
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: OzarkTom on 24 Nov 2014, 01:57 am
Sounds like you just started another tour!  :lol:

Funny how this amp somehow missed AC after seeing threads from Audioholics and or AVS from a few years back kind of doing what we're doing here.

I might let Jack and Roscoe hear it, but no tour. That one is mine. :thumb:
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: dlaloum on 24 Nov 2014, 01:57 am
Sounds like you just started another tour!  :lol:

Funny how this amp somehow missed AC after seeing threads from Audioholics and or AVS from a few years back kind of doing what we're doing here.

Those threads are what led me to take the plunge with the XLS.

Here is Australia, they cost about double the US price, which leads to a more considered decision process, but the 110V units can be converted easily to 240V, so I brought them in from the US.

Most of those threads however were focused on HT use, few of them had the stereo focus that this community has - making this series of test/reviews quite interesting.
Also the community on here is already more digital than the communities on those forums were a couple of years back, with products like Cherry, Ncore, and Hypex for comparison....

Like I said this is an interesting thread...
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Folsom on 24 Nov 2014, 02:08 am
Thats what I use - two 6" cables tie them together for biamping....

Are you being serious?
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: dlaloum on 24 Nov 2014, 02:20 am
Yes - I run the main stereo signal into the first XLS2500 (via the XLR inputs - this is my upper frequency amp) then daisy chain via short 6" cables with 1/4" jacks to the 2nd XLS2500 which runs the woofer. (with relevant crossover settings set internally within the respective XLS')
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: roscoeiii on 24 Nov 2014, 03:01 am
OK,  a more in depth write-up from my afternoon with Jack will need to come later. But what really transformed the XLS in his system? Plugging it into a power conditioner. My Running Springs Haley. Night and day difference in his system,  with his AC power. Prior to the Haley, the amp was too forward and bright in Jack's system.  Felt a bit harsh with his speakers, which I'd say are a bit forward,  until the conditioner came into the picture. But then bam! Much more impressive, with great detail and oomph.

Now did they have the magic of the ncore in his system? No. But lemme tell you, ncore is a magical pairing with those speakers. Just great synergy there. So no shame in the XLS game when getting good power. I am also very interested I how the XLS sounds with the more laid back Von Schweikert speakers at my place. Will try that combo out shortly.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: rascal on 24 Nov 2014, 03:08 am
Well, conclusions are similar  :P  (I am) not going to be replacing ncores with XLS from the mains  :icon_surprised: Careful level matching and playing different kinds of music (most familiar with) will enable one to make the call.

Looking forward to more opinions..

Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: OzarkTom on 24 Nov 2014, 12:05 pm
OK,  a more in depth write-up from my afternoon with Jack will need to come later. But what really transformed the XLS in his system? Plugging it into a power conditioner. My Running Springs Haley. Night and day difference in his system,  with his AC power. Prior to the Haley, the amp was too forward and bright in Jack's system.  Felt a bit harsh with his speakers, which I'd say are a bit forward,  until the conditioner came into the picture. But then bam! Much more impressive, with great detail and oomph.

Did you and Jack want to try the cryo Crown when it is ready?
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: roscoeiii on 24 Nov 2014, 12:11 pm
Ooh Yeah, I do.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: mresseguie on 24 Nov 2014, 07:08 pm
I've noticed on Parts Express that 'new and improved' Crown XTi 2 Series amp are available. They appear to have ~30% more power and are quite a bit more expensive. Any thoughts or experience with these?

I've located someone in my area who is asking $300 for a Crown XLS 1500. It's 5 months old. His asking price seems a bit high. Any suggestions on a more reasonable bid from me without pissing him off too much?

Thanks.

Michael
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: OzarkTom on 24 Nov 2014, 07:25 pm
I've noticed on Parts Express that 'new and improved' Crown XTi 2 Series amp are available. They appear to have ~30% more power and are quite a bit more expensive. Any thoughts or experience with these?

I've located someone in my area who is asking $300 for a Crown XLS 1500. It's 5 months old. His asking price seems a bit high. Any suggestions on a more reasonable bid from me without pissing him off too much?

Thanks.

Michael

They are new on Amazon for $325, $250 would be the tops that I would offer.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Folsom on 24 Nov 2014, 07:28 pm
The Crown XTi 2 looks unrelated, lower SNR, higher distortion.

It's got a bunch of transistors. Maybe they're to have variable rails or something.

(http://i.ebayimg.com/00/$(KGrHqN,!l8E4vQWe-bfBOQII,D9Ug~~0_35.JPG)
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: wushuliu on 24 Nov 2014, 08:02 pm
XLS: So an extra $1000 gets you the 10% more of an ncore. Not bad...
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: xsb7244 on 24 Nov 2014, 08:29 pm
OzarkTom,

Who is cryoman?  Does he have a website?  Please give details.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: a.wayne on 24 Nov 2014, 08:47 pm
OK,  a more in depth write-up from my afternoon with Jack will need to come later. But what really transformed the XLS in his system? Plugging it into a power conditioner. My Running Springs Haley. Night and day difference in his system,  with his AC power. Prior to the Haley, the amp was too forward and bright in Jack's system.  Felt a bit harsh with his speakers, which I'd say are a bit forward,  until the conditioner came into the picture. But then bam! Much more impressive, with great detail and oomph.

Now did they have the magic of the ncore in his system? No. But lemme tell you, ncore is a magical pairing with those speakers. Just great synergy there. So no shame in the XLS game when getting good power. I am also very interested I how the XLS sounds with the more laid back Von Schweikert speakers at my place. Will try that combo out shortly.


What speakers ? could you be more specific as to Jacks setup ............
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: roscoeiii on 24 Nov 2014, 10:31 pm
Don't recall all the specifics or models. Jack will have to provide those. The speakers are Bamberg.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Tomy2Tone on 25 Nov 2014, 12:26 am
Here's an update on the tour list for everybody...

Jackman/Roscoeiii- Chicago

rodge827- Jersey

mjosef- Brooklyn

SteveFord- PA

jtsnead- MD

Freo-1- MA

zapper7- NV

Peter J- ID

S Clark- TX

gregfisk- WA

Hopefully Jackman will chime in pretty soon with an official review!  :D
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: a.wayne on 25 Nov 2014, 12:33 am
 :sleep:
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: wushuliu on 25 Nov 2014, 12:40 am
:sleep:

Lol, yeah. I think we get the gist anyway. On to rodge...
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: roscoeiii on 25 Nov 2014, 12:53 am
Give jackman some time. We ended up pretty late yesterday  and he's been slammed with work. He'll be around soon enough with impressions.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Tomy2Tone on 25 Nov 2014, 01:07 am
Give jackman some time. We ended up pretty late yesterday  and he's been slammed with work. He'll be around soon enough with impressions.

Are you in possession of the amp now roscoe? If so, would love to know what you think of it with the Von Scweikerts.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: roscoeiii on 25 Nov 2014, 01:12 am
Yeah, I've got it. Going to a concert tonight (what?!? Actual live music instead of evaluating an map's capability on recorded music!?!!),  so won't be able to hook it up until tomorrow at the earliest. But I have 3 pairs of speakers I can pair it with.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: OzarkTom on 25 Nov 2014, 01:13 am
Until then, if anyone is searching for a good used Crown amp on Craigslist, I use searchtempest.com. This allows you to search all of Craigslist all over the country. That is how I found all of the good deals that I have found. You will see a lot of DJ and PA systems for sale. Some of those people well sell their amps separately, some won't. Some are asking higher prices than Ebay, some less. I always buy by Paypal if they will take it.

There use to be Craiglook, which was much easier and faster than searchtempest, but Craigslist shut them down a few years ago for some reason. I guess Craigslist was too jealous.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: WireNut on 25 Nov 2014, 10:32 am
Until then, if anyone is searching for a good used Crown amp on Craigslist, I use searchtempest.com. This allows you to search all of Craigslist all over the country. That is how I found all of the good deals that I have found. You will see a lot of DJ and PA systems for sale. Some of those people well sell their amps separately, some won't. Some are asking higher prices than Ebay, some less. I always buy by Paypal if they will take it.

There use to be Craiglook, which was much easier and faster than searchtempest, but Craigslist shut them down a few years ago for some reason. I guess Craigslist was too jealous.

I just tried it. Great tip. Thank you  :thumb:

Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Odal3 on 25 Nov 2014, 10:44 am
That's great search tip. Thanks for sharing!
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: OzarkTom on 25 Nov 2014, 11:35 am
New 1500 is now $321 on Amazon.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B003HZV2JS/ref=ox_sc_act_title_1?ie=UTF8&psc=1&smid=A5ZRC4DPYV13E
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: jackman on 25 Nov 2014, 08:06 pm
New 1500 is now $321 on Amazon.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B003HZV2JS/ref=ox_sc_act_title_1?ie=UTF8&psc=1&smid=A5ZRC4DPYV13E

I thought PartsExpress had a $40 off special on the Crown (~$310 or so).  Don't know if it's still going but I noticed it last week. 
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: jackman on 25 Nov 2014, 08:06 pm
Hi Guys,

I'm sorry about the delay, but I've been really slammed with family and work commitments, etc.  Special thanks to Tommy for shipping out the amp and generously letting me play around with it for a week.  Regarding my system, I have Bamberg Audio Series 5 MTM speakers, an SAS Audio 10A preamp (modded to reduce gain to 7db), Jena Labs cables, external xovers made by Bamberg Audio, nCore dual mono amp (with separate power supplies, in a single chassis) and a Crown K1/Behringer DCX2494 powering the dual subwoofer stands. 

The speakers are the older MTM version of this speaker, http://bambergaudio.com/products/series5/5tmw.php.  They are very transparent and detailed with excellent bass extension.  The speakers are a relatively easy to drive 4ohms.  My room has been measured and adjusted with an Omni-Mic and measures relatively flat at the listening position.  Also, the amp tested (and my current Ncore) only drives the monitors as the subs are powered separately. 

I'll fill in additional details on the listening session later today, but I will cut to the chase.  The Crown XLS 1500 is a true bargain and was very impressive, even at full retail price.  It drove my speakers to very high levels without breaking a sweat.  The amp is VERY lightweight, compact and well constructed.  It ran DEAD silent in my system and I could not hear the fan from my listening position. 

I listed to it over the course of a week and went through all of my favorite recordings; Jazz, Rock/Blues, Classical, etc.  During this time, I did not use a power conditioner.  Soundstage was pretty good, but not the best, tonality was relatively neutral (certainly better than anything I've ever heard in this price range), but it sounded a bit steely, forward and slightly 2 dimensional.  At higher volumes levels there is definitely a "cringe factor" and too much energy in the upper frequencies.  For the money, it's a great bargain and it might be a better match for speakers that are darker or more laid back. 

So, how did it compare to the nCore?  In my system, the nCore sounded much (MUCH BETTER) better overall.  nCore had more detail, wider/deeper soundstage, and just sounded better in my system. The nCore envelopes you with sound, and is a perfect match for my speakers/system.   The difference between the two amps was not small, however the price difference between the amps is considerable. The Crown was very dynamic and did not lack for power.  It's amazing an amp this tiny can be this powerful, but it is!  I'd seriously consider it for subwoofer duties and will when my K1 (or DCX) dies.  The 1500 has a built-in xover and low pass filter which would be great for a subwoofer. 

Fast forward to Sunday afternoon, when AC's own Roscoeiii arrived with his stack of CD's and power conditioner.  We listened to several CD's on my system (with the Crown) and were both very surprised by how good it sounded.  The soundstage depth and forward "steely" character of the amp, however, became apparent to Roscoe and I...when the amp was plugged into the wall directly.  After the Running Springs power conditioner entered the fray, the Crown sounded much better.  The tonal issues improved and the amp was much less forward.  Soundstage was still about the same, but it was much more listenable.  In fact, it sounded so much better, we decided to plug in the nCore to see how they stacked up.  After a couple minutes, it became apparent, the nCore performs at a totally different level than the Crown.  I would not describe it at 10% or 20% better.  In my system, the nCore is magic and the Crown is very good, for the money.  I could not live with the Crown as an every day amp in my system because of the tonal issues, forward character and the soundstage depth. 

All of the listening took place with the nCore plugged directly into the wall.  We decided to try it with the RS Hailey power conditioner and neither of us thought the conditioner improved the sound of the nCOre.  It seemed to dull it down and kill some of the inner detail.  I am going to do some additional evaluations but it seemed pretty obvious that the nCore was most happy being plugged into the wall directly, without any power conditioning. 

I look forward to trying the cryo'd version and will probably buy one of these amps someday.  Before I compared it directly to the nCore, I thought it sounded very good.  For the money, I don't think the Crown can be beat, especially if you have hard to drive or inefficient speakers, and if you like to play them at very high levels! 

Lastly, we used the magic wooden pucks and I owe Tommy for the one my JRT dog, Daisy, chewed to pieces (the others are okay).  She loves the taste of cedar!  Did not notice a difference but they are cheap and a very low risk proposition (you can always use them to ward off moths in your closet or clothes drawers).  Thanks again for the opportunity to hear this very cool, little powerhouse of an amp.  It was very impressive and it offers serious bang for the buck! 
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: roscoeiii on 25 Nov 2014, 08:32 pm
Not much more I'd add to what Jack said. The use of the Running Springs Haley is a nice reminder that not only do we have to pay attention to speaker pairing, but that the quality of the AC reaching the amp can also make a big difference. It is as drastic an improvement as I have heard using a power conditioner. Of course, it may seem silly to pay big bucks for a conditioner with such an inexpensive amp, but you would also likely also get some benefit (and protection if the conditioner has surge protection built in) for all of the components plugged into a conditioner. I'd certainly be curious if a less expensive conditioner like an ADC would also provide improvement. In general, what conditioner works with what gear, and what incoming AC problems is a bit of a crapshoot.

Next up, the Von Schweikerts with the Crown, which will be using an Equitech 2Q conditioner, since I left the Running Springs with Jack for him to listen to for a while longer in his system.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Folsom on 25 Nov 2014, 08:35 pm
Jack, maybe you should listen to OTom's after I've done a few mods to it. The first mod (I didn't have to order anything) instantly brought better tone. I haven't had time to burn it in. My buddy wants to try it but his high end Analysis+ cables are spades so I've got to figure something out that won't scratch up his expensive cables. I don't understand the binding posts on this... SpeakONs yes, but the binding posts are silly.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: roscoeiii on 25 Nov 2014, 09:21 pm
Tone wasn't as much an issue compared to the ncore. Instead it was detail,  air and front to back 3D imaging where the ncore shined.

But I really view this as a synergy issue. Ncore is magic in his system in a way it wasn't in mine. and XLS does great things I thought not possible at its price.

So we have some combo of system synergy and you get what you pay for. Both amps astound for what they cost, but the extra money that ncore amps cost does seem to give something extra at least in some systems.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Tomy2Tone on 25 Nov 2014, 09:44 pm
Thanks Jack for the great review! I'm glad you were able to give the crown a chance to settle in your system and thanks to roscoeiii have the ability to see what a conditioner can do for it. No worries on the cedar rings, I have too many of them to count now.  :)

Roscoeiii-

If you wouldn't mind, can you talk a little more of how the ncore sounds a little different in your system vs Jacks? Just curious as to what factors are different in your setup as opposed to Jacks.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: a.wayne on 25 Nov 2014, 10:07 pm
Thanks for the update Jackman, especially details on the setup .......
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: roscoeiii on 25 Nov 2014, 10:13 pm
Thanks Jack for the great review! I'm glad you were able to give the crown a chance to settle in your system and thanks to roscoeiii have the ability to see what a conditioner can do for it. No worries on the cedar rings, I have too many of them to count now.  :)

Roscoeiii-

If you wouldn't mind, can you talk a little more of how the ncore sounds a little different in your system vs Jacks? Just curious as to what factors are different in your setup as opposed to Jacks.

Don't have it inserted in my system yet. Had a concert to go to last night. I will be trying the XLS with my Von Schweikert VR-4s, Black Moon Audio Fidelity One (pair pictured in this review: http://www.stereotimes.com/post/black-moon-audio-fidelity-one-loudspeaker )  and SP Tech Minis, and (if they get here in time) maybe my new big-boy speakers that will remain unnamed since I don't want to jinx it. My guess is that the Von Schweikerts will be the best pairing, but only one way to find out.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: WireNut on 25 Nov 2014, 11:27 pm
I don’t see how a digital switching amp at 11 pounds can deliver powerful bass compared to an amp that has large amounts of energy on tap at all times.

Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: G Georgopoulos on 25 Nov 2014, 11:32 pm
I don’t see how a digital switching amp at 11 pounds can deliver powerful bass compared to an amp that has large amounts of energy on tap at all times.

class-d are killer amplifiers,lot's of power for bass... :green:
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: OzarkTom on 25 Nov 2014, 11:53 pm
Jack has proven something for me, power conditioners even makes the Ncores sound better.

The cryo amp should be at Roscoes next week, if it goes as normal, the amp should be at least 30% better. But we shall see.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Folsom on 26 Nov 2014, 12:01 am
I don’t see how a digital switching amp at 11 pounds can deliver powerful bass compared to an amp that has large amounts of energy on tap at all times.

The SPL probably wouldn't be different, but perceived bass will be quiet different.

Current won't dump if it's not told too, and feedback may not be enough or in a way that works for the attack and decay that'll give you the perception of serious bass.

The XLS dampening factor is probably way higher than most amps that have larger capacitance in them. Also lots of capacitance doesn't always feature the speed needed. In big powerful class A amps with bass you're hearing a lot of straight from the wall power (through an oversized transformer), that's fast.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Folsom on 26 Nov 2014, 12:02 am
Jack has proven something for me, power conditioners even makes the Ncores sound better.

The cryo amp should be at Roscoes next week, if it goes as normal, the amp should be at least 30% better. But we shall see.

I'd expect a transformer to be bad for the Ncore, but other conditioners might be just fine. I mean some are parallel so they can't limit dynamics, for example.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Tomy2Tone on 26 Nov 2014, 12:11 am
Don't have it inserted in my system yet. Had a concert to go to last night. I will be trying the XLS with my Von Schweikert VR-4s, Black Moon Audio Fidelity One (pair pictured in this review: http://www.stereotimes.com/post/black-moon-audio-fidelity-one-loudspeaker )  and SP Tech Minis, and (if they get here in time) maybe my new big-boy speakers that will remain unnamed since I don't want to jinx it. My guess is that the Von Schweikerts will be the best pairing, but only one way to find out.

Hey roscoeiii, I was actually referring to the Ncore amp. If you get a chance, I was just curious if you could elaborate on what the Ncore does in your system vs what it does in Jacks. No big deal if you don't wanna.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: roscoeiii on 26 Nov 2014, 12:34 am
Hey roscoeiii, I was actually referring to the Ncore amp. If you get a chance, I was just curious if you could elaborate on what the Ncore does in your system vs what it does in Jacks. No big deal if you don't wanna.

Been a while since I got to try the ncore. I will try to find my comments on the tour thread. But IIRC, the ncore felt a bit lean on my VR-4s compared to the Rogue Stereo 90 that I am currently using. Stereo 90 had more oomph and fullness. And may have been a bit more forward, which the VR 4s need for my tastes.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: roscoeiii on 26 Nov 2014, 12:44 am
My impressions from the ncore tour:

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=105310.msg1106866;topicseen#msg1106866

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=105310.msg1106874#msg1106874

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=105310.msg1111098#msg1111098



Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: jackman on 26 Nov 2014, 01:39 am
This is a very interesting thread. I would definitely look very closely at this series of amps from Crown, if I was looking for a new subwoofer amp.  It's amazing to see an amp that you can literally hold in one hand deliver this much power.

Also, the NCore did not improve with the power conditioner. It sounds  best plugged directly into the wall with no conditioning. The conditioner seemed to mess with the detail and overall transparency of the NCore. The Crown benefitted significantly but even with the improvement was very far from the performance of the NCore on in my system. Perhaps Roscoe will have a different experience in his system.  The SAS preamp seems to pair nicely with the NCore as well.

It was very enjoyable aging around with the new amp. If you listen to Rock or electronic music at high volume levels, the Crown could be all you need.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: dlaloum on 26 Nov 2014, 02:16 am
I originally purchased the XLS with my low end in mind (bi-amp) - but using it full range showed it to be better than any of my current amps in the highs as well. (obviously relative to the amps I have tried and the speakers that I have)
There are loads of people using these for subs and for woofers on biamp setups - for which these are ideal - the surprise is how good they are across the board...

Waiting to hear more comparisons with differing speakers - if the Ncores really show themselves superior across a range of differing speakers, maybe I will have to find a way to try a set down here where we walk upside down...
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: roscoeiii on 26 Nov 2014, 04:25 am
Something was screwy with the set up of my  Von Schweikert speakers which I need to figure out. But with the Black Moon 3-ways the treble was excellent and I think the imaging was better than I heard at Jack's.

Compared to my Rogue Stereo 90, I think the XLS had more delicate treble, but not quite the same bass heft. Bass was solid, but perhaps the damping with the XLS was a bit much for those speakers. Great bass detail, but less impact and oomph. More listening to come, and hopefully I can figure out what is up with that Von Schweikert setup.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: roscoeiii on 26 Nov 2014, 04:29 am
So in summary, I think the XLS worked better with my setup than Jack's, but again, it doesn't displace my current amp. Which costs about 10x more, so that shouldn't surprise. The big question for me is how it pairs with speakers that like a high damping factor. All about synergy...
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: guest61169 on 26 Nov 2014, 02:44 pm
If passing the unit around, make sure you take the time to go through the menus when you get it and turn all the unneeded stuff off, including the clip limiters (which are enabled from the factory).   
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Russell Dawkins on 26 Nov 2014, 06:44 pm
If passing the unit around, make sure you take the time to go through the menus when you get it and turn all the unneeded stuff off, including the clip limiters (which are enabled from the factory).
Yes, I was wondering if the limiters might have been selected when Jack was auditioning, based on the comment made earlier about the sonic effects of this.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: roscoeiii on 26 Nov 2014, 07:26 pm
Yes, I was wondering if the limiters might have been selected when Jack was auditioning, based on the comment made earlier about the sonic effects of this.

I'll check when I am able.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: jackman on 26 Nov 2014, 07:27 pm
Yes, I was wondering if the limiters might have been selected when Jack was auditioning, based on the comment made earlier about the sonic effects of this.

Nope, I made sure the amp was operating in stereo mode, with no limiters, high or low pass filters.  This amp is super easy to operate and I'm 100% certain it was set up properly.  It was very powerful and drove my speakers to very high spl's without clipping and without issues.  It just didn't sound nearly as good as the nCore, even with high end power conditioning.  As I stated, this was on my system, maybe it sounds better on other systems.

Also, my comments appear to be in line with other people who have tried the Crown.  It's a bit steely, forward and 2D versus the nCore.  It still sounds very good and is a bargain for the $$$, but I'm not selling my amp any time soon to get one.  I may get one for my subs someday.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: jackman on 26 Nov 2014, 07:29 pm
PS - Roscoe, please PM me your address.  The latest posts reminded me that I need to send you the manual.  It's on my coffee table in my listening room (mancave, etc.).  It's easy to operate and you should be able to find instructions on-line (it is menu driven and very logical/user-friendly).  Sorry about that...

Thanks,
Jack
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: a.wayne on 26 Nov 2014, 08:22 pm
Jackmans comments are in line with what i have experienced with class-d ( Rotel, BelCanto) I have yet to hear the NCores,( or any of the other hi-end class-d selling for ridicule $$)  tried in the circle , but to no avail, not sure how to hear one without purchasing and not committed to Class-d enuff to go that route.  I'm also not sold on the bass, as I still find class-a ,  a/ab superior in bass articulation, weight and control over class-D , same for top end. Class-D does have good "jump" , so it does capture the life of the recordings very well  but at the expense of  sounding edgy and ill defined vs other topologies.


Things could be changing ........   :weights:


Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: WireNut on 26 Nov 2014, 08:39 pm

I'm also not sold on the bass, as I still find class-a ,  a/ab superior in bass articulation, weight and control over class-D , same for top end.


That's pretty much how I feel about the XLS amp on low frequency's, all tho, I have not heard one yet.
I just sold my Audio Research 150.2 amp due to a job lay off. The 150.2 was a class T digital switching amp rated at 300 watts at 4 ohms but it weighted 45 pounds.
It had the best low end authority of any amp I've used in the last 30 years. The XLS at 11 pounds, I just don't see how it can match the 150.2 on low frequency's.
I hope I'm wrong because the XLS might be my next bass amp due to it's low price.

I should probably get on this tour if possible in order to try the XLS out as a bass amp in my bi-amp system.
My old Hafler 9505 amp I'm now using for bass has developed a low level popping in my right channel  :(


Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Folsom on 26 Nov 2014, 09:36 pm
I don't have your experiences Wayne.

The XLS goes deep with bass in a controlled way.

The metallic sound seemed to go away with a change to the XLS. That's what I meant by tone. I wouldn't call it timbre because it's more like a grain.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: cab on 26 Nov 2014, 09:41 pm
TThe XLS at 11 pounds, I just don't see how it can match the 150.2 on low frequency's.


Since when has an amp's performance been related to its weight??? :scratch:
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: WireNut on 26 Nov 2014, 10:02 pm
Since when has an amp's performance been related to its weight??? :scratch:

It's more about on demand current at any given time.
I've tried so many amps over the last 30 years, wattage doesn't mean better at low frequency's.
I'm not knocking the XLS amps, I may own one if the future.
All I can say is the Audio Research 150.2 class T digital switching amp has the best bass authority of any amp I've used in 30 years.
I can't wait to own another one. Sorry I ever had to sell it off.




 





Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: wushuliu on 26 Nov 2014, 10:22 pm
but at the expense of  sounding edgy and ill defined vs other topologies.


Things could be changing ........   :weights:

I just don't get that. The TPA amps and the Class D Audio amps I've heard sound nothing like that. They sound more tube than solid state (when modified with quality parts).

I do agree on the bass control.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Freo-1 on 26 Nov 2014, 11:16 pm
I just don't get that. The TPA amps and the Class D Audio amps I've heard sound nothing like that. They sound more tube than solid state (when modified with quality parts).

I do agree on the bass control.


With the exception of the Yamaha MX-D1, my experience is they do sound like that.  Even the Yamaha, as nice as it sounds, still does not have the 3D, bass slam, low level detail and midrange performance of the better high end tube/solid state units.  There certainly has been a general trend of improvements with Class D.  I think the quality and speaker load has a lot to do with the differences noticed by audiophiles.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: roscoeiii on 27 Nov 2014, 02:12 am
And as I've mentioned before, I think that the high damping factor is probably playing a role with some speakers.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: rodge827 on 27 Nov 2014, 02:57 am
And as I've mentioned before, I think that the high damping factor is probably playing a role with some speakers.

What kind of front end are you guys using? Tube or SS?
Sorry if this was already mentioned.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Folsom on 27 Nov 2014, 04:06 am
And as I've mentioned before, I think that the high damping factor is probably playing a role with some speakers.

It's better for low efficiency speakers yes?
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: G Georgopoulos on 27 Nov 2014, 04:23 am
It's better for low efficiency speakers yes?

no,it's better for high efficiency speakers,higher damping!!! :green:
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: dlaloum on 27 Nov 2014, 04:48 am
I think it works well with demanding speakers that have reactive loads.

The Gallo's I have have a very strange capacitive load in the high end (due to the CDT tweeter), and the crossover to the 4ohm woofer drops the impedance down to around 2 ohm at circa 125Hz...

So you need plenty of current for the low impedance part, not sure what the best amp setup for the high end CDT tweeter is, but Gallo use a Spectron Class-D amp for their demos.... and from my perspective, the synergy between speakers and XLS amps is fantastic. (but I don't have ncores to compare to...)

I would love to know why the match is so good.... its not like the other amps I tried lack current!
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: OzarkTom on 27 Nov 2014, 11:17 pm
The 1500 is presently out of the deep freeze and is on and burning in.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: WireNut on 27 Nov 2014, 11:37 pm
The 1500 is presently out of the deep freeze and is on and burning in.

/
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: OzarkTom on 27 Nov 2014, 11:54 pm
I would Never Ever have one of my expensive components or tubes Cryoded. Never Ever.

A $200 amp is expensive? My cryo'd IC's and ITube are more expensive than that.
.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: steve f on 28 Nov 2014, 05:06 pm
I suspect that DF may be a concern with the rolled off bass response some members are experiencing.

My 1500 arrived, but I won't get a chance to try it until next week.

Edit: these amps were originally designed to be used with big woofers ( 4" voice coils, medium Q values, stiff surrounds) in vented cabinets.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: a.wayne on 29 Nov 2014, 08:31 pm
I'm starting to become very skeptical and eerily cautious of this amplifier, everyone who comes in contact goes silent, first Jackman ,now Roscoe ....  :rotflmao:
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: roscoeiii on 29 Nov 2014, 08:50 pm
Tough to type with my jaw on the floor... :D

Naw, just out of town in KC visiting my sister. But getting some exciting new speakers on the ride back (which like high damping factor according to the manufacturer) so should have lots to report back on.  :thumb: :thumb: :thumb:
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: OzarkTom on 29 Nov 2014, 09:59 pm
Tough to type with my jaw on the floor... :D

Naw, just out of town in KC visiting my sister. But getting some exciting new speakers on the ride back (which like high damping factor according to the manufacturer) so should have lots to report back on.  :thumb: :thumb: :thumb:

Just two hours south you could have stopped at my house.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: roscoeiii on 29 Nov 2014, 10:09 pm
Let's arrange a visit on my next trip to KC.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Tomy2Tone on 29 Nov 2014, 10:19 pm
Tough to type with my jaw on the floor... :D

Naw, just out of town in KC visiting my sister. But getting some exciting new speakers on the ride back (which like high damping factor according to the manufacturer) so should have lots to report back on.  :thumb: :thumb: :thumb:

Hmmm....were you by chance stopping in St. Louis on this ride back home?  :D

Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: a.wayne on 29 Nov 2014, 11:25 pm
Nah , he was eating up the free turkey .............   :shh:
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: roscoeiii on 30 Nov 2014, 12:05 am
Hmmm....were you by chance stopping in St. Louis on this ride back home?  :D

Nope,  swinging  thru Arkansas instead  to pick up the new speakers
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Folsom on 30 Nov 2014, 01:08 am
Someone move to MT...
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Tomy2Tone on 30 Nov 2014, 01:18 am
Someone move to MT...

Hey Salis, are you willing and able to share your tweak on the xls? Or should that be reserved for a pm?

Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Folsom on 30 Nov 2014, 02:05 am
Unfortunately almost no parts are available for this unit. However the power section proved tamable.

The most important thing is dampening the CMC's. The key to this is using correctly sized resistors, that are safe. I'm using 3w flameproof ones. Carbon comp would be ideal for extreme voltage but unavailable in higher safe wattage. This is a very apparent improvement.

The next thing I did. I removed the Y caps on line. This is debatable but ultimately I think wise so long as you don't seek approval as a new product. However it may have originally been done out of practice.

Here's where it gets more interesting... I replaced the trashy diode bridge and decoupled it in a non-typical way. I'm not a fan of caps across diodes, but when using fast soft closing ones I've found AC side decoupling is great. There's overall less diode noise, at a minor expense of increased inductance. As far as I can tell it was more than worth trading off a stiff ringing power supply for a little inductance.

It's not burned in, but it's listenable now. I might see if I can figure out how to connect it to a friends more high end system to see if he can be converted to the dark side since he's got a 300w heater for an amp ATM. He'll give some real feedback.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Folsom on 30 Nov 2014, 02:11 am

(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=109543)


(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=109544)
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: cab on 30 Nov 2014, 02:13 am

It's not burned in, but it's listenable now.

So while some here have been heaping praise on this amp and replacing amps that cost several times as much with it, you have found it "unlistenable" in its stock form?

Quite a disparity in opinion.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Folsom on 30 Nov 2014, 02:19 am
So while some here have been heaping praise on this amp and replacing amps that cost several times as much with it, you have found it "unlistenable" in its stock form?

Quite a disparity in opinion.

Everyone likes it in stock form after being burned in. Prior to that it's not up to snuff. My modded version is pleasant without burn in.

So I wouldn't phrase it how you did.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: rodge827 on 30 Nov 2014, 02:27 am
Nope,  swinging  thru Arkansas instead  to pick up the new speakers

What are picking up...please tell?
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: roscoeiii on 30 Nov 2014, 02:31 am
I don't want to jinx it until they are in my car...
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Tomy2Tone on 30 Nov 2014, 02:34 am
Doh! Good try Chris.  :D
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: rodge827 on 30 Nov 2014, 02:44 am
I don't want to jinx it until they are in my car...

Ok some Questions:

1) Are they from a manufacturer?
2) Private sale?
3) Monitors?
4) Floorstanders?
5) Horns?
6) Electrostats?



Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: roscoeiii on 30 Nov 2014, 02:51 am
MY ANSWERS IN CAPS

Ok some Questions:

1) Are they from a manufacturer? NO
2) Private sale? YES
3) Monitors? NO
4) Floorstanders? YES
5) Horns? NO, BUT THEY ARE WAVEGUIDES
6) Electrostats? NO


THEY ARE A MANUFACTURER/MODEL OWNED BY SOME WELL KNOWN ACers...
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Tomy2Tone on 30 Nov 2014, 02:58 am
MY ANSWERS IN CAPS

Ok some Questions:

1) Are they from a manufacturer? NO
2) Private sale? YES
3) Monitors? NO
4) Floorstanders? YES
5) Horns? NO, BUT THEY ARE WAVEGUIDES
6) Electrostats? NO


THEY ARE A MANUFACTURER/MODEL OWNED BY SOME WELL KNOWN ACers...

Audio Kinesis?

Whatever they are, hope they work out well for you!  :)
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Folsom on 30 Nov 2014, 03:00 am
Tomy, is that info you wanted?

The old bridge took some work to have cleaned out and removed. Also don't fool around with lead free solder if you aren't familiar; practice on something else.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Tomy2Tone on 30 Nov 2014, 03:03 am
Tomy, is that info you wanted?

The old bridge took some work to have cleaned out and removed. Also don't fool around with lead free solder if you aren't familiar; practice on something else.

Yes. I'm not very experienced at DIY stuff but willing to learn.

Are you returning the xls back to Ozarktom or are you keeping it? Would be interesting to know what he thinks as well.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Folsom on 30 Nov 2014, 03:09 am
Returning it. I'd like to evaluate it on a better stereo than mine, as I said. I think Tom will let me borrow it a bit longer as he did get free guinea pig mods  8)
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: roscoeiii on 30 Nov 2014, 03:12 am
Audio Kinesis?

Whatever they are, hope they work out well for you!  :)

Nope but good guess. Duke is a fan of these speakers.

another hint: transmission line bass
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: a.wayne on 30 Nov 2014, 03:51 am
Snell.....
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: rodge827 on 30 Nov 2014, 04:05 am
Geddes?
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Russell Dawkins on 30 Nov 2014, 06:42 am
Geddes?
Don't usually see Geddes and transmission line in the same sentence.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: orientalexpress on 30 Nov 2014, 12:54 pm
SP Tech speaker?
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: roscoeiii on 30 Nov 2014, 01:00 pm
SP Tech speaker?

Bingo!
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: rodge827 on 30 Nov 2014, 01:08 pm
Don't usually see Geddes and transmission line in the same sentence.

Know U don't...I got caught up on "wave guide"  :roll:

Enjoy the SP Tech's...which model?
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Tomy2Tone on 30 Nov 2014, 02:33 pm
Enjoy the SP Tech's...which model?

 :thumb:
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: a.wayne on 30 Nov 2014, 03:35 pm
http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue22/sptech.htm
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: jackman on 30 Nov 2014, 04:05 pm
Nope but good guess. Duke is a fan of these speakers.

another hint: transmission line bass

BOSE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :thumb:
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: roscoeiii on 30 Nov 2014, 04:26 pm
:thumb:

Yes,  I found me some Revelations. Weight made shipping prohibitively expensive so swinging by to grab them on my way back from KC. Added about 5 hrs to the trip.

Hope they fit in my VW!
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Tomy2Tone on 30 Nov 2014, 04:53 pm
Yes,  I found me some Revelations. Weight made shipping prohibitively expensive so swinging by to grab them on my way back from KC. Added about 5 hrs to the trip.

Hope they fit in my VW!

Nice!

Looks like you got a great deal! Makes for a nice end cap to a holiday weekend. Congrats!
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Russell Dawkins on 30 Nov 2014, 06:39 pm
http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue22/sptech.htm

I see that was from before Bob increased the price. Those were the speakers I should have got - and I'll bet a Crown XLS will make them sound effortless.
I knew my Timepieces needed more power than the Nuforce ref 9s I was trying to drive them with, but I could not afford enough quality watts at the time.
I could hear something straining if I tried to monitor past around 75 - 80 dB but was not sure if it was the speaker at the low end of the tweeter's passband or the amplifier (now I think it was the amp).
I was was tempted to buy a Crown Macro Reference, but was afraid the sound would be coarse. I had the same preconceived notions about "pro" amps as many watching this.

As an aside, I read that the Crown Macro Reference was used in the development of the fabled Yamaha NS-1000, which is another speaker that needs an extraordinary amplifier to do its stuff properly.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: rodge827 on 30 Nov 2014, 06:46 pm
Yes,  I found me some Revelations. Weight made shipping prohibitively expensive so swinging by to grab them on my way back from KC. Added about 5 hrs to the trip.

Hope they fit in my VW!

Christmas came early for Roscoe!  8) :xmas:
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: OzarkTom on 30 Nov 2014, 09:27 pm
So what did the cryoman and his friend think of the cryo'd Crown?

We had a chance to listen to your Crown amp. It took a little while until we found the way that it sounded the best. After getting it to sound it's best, I have to say that it is a world beater for $400.00. I have heard a lot of $1500.00 amps that wish they were this good. It is not quite to the level of reference but will give a lot of amps out there a run for their money.
    The way that I got it to sound it's best was to take 2 pieces of Moongel pads and fold them over to make a thicker pad. Do the same to 2 others and put them underneath the unit. One in front and 2 in back. Then we put 7 1/2 lbs of lead shot on top of the amp. We found that power cords made a pretty big difference. Of all of the cords that we had laying around, this one red one that I make that looks like my speaker cables sounded the best. A lot of others were too soft and syrupy. That was the best way that we found.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Tomy2Tone on 30 Nov 2014, 10:24 pm
So what did the cryoman and his friend think of the cryo'd Crown?

We had a chance to listen to your Crown amp. It took a little while until we found the way that it sounded the best. After getting it to sound it's best, I have to say that it is a world beater for $400.00. I have heard a lot of $1500.00 amps that wish they were this good. It is not quite to the level of reference but will give a lot of amps out there a run for their money.
    The way that I got it to sound it's best was to take 2 pieces of Moongel pads and fold them over to make a thicker pad. Do the same to 2 others and put them underneath the unit. One in front and 2 in back. Then we put 7 1/2 lbs of lead shot on top of the amp. We found that power cords made a pretty big difference. Of all of the cords that we had laying around, this one red one that I make that looks like my speaker cables sounded the best. A lot of others were too soft and syrupy. That was the best way that we found.


Very nice Tom!

Sounds like you should be getting the cryo crown this week then?

I've gone back and forth with what I've put under and on top and have settled on Herbies sonic hardballs underneath and about 4lbs of weight on top. Sounds very neutral with still a lot of dynamics.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: OzarkTom on 30 Nov 2014, 10:31 pm
Nope,  swinging  thru Arkansas instead  to pick up the new speakers

 :o

You drove by my place and did not stop?
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: OzarkTom on 30 Nov 2014, 11:00 pm
Very nice Tom!

Sounds like you should be getting the cryo crown this week then?

I've gone back and forth with what I've put under and on top and have settled on Herbies sonic hardballs underneath and about 4lbs of weight on top. Sounds very neutral with still a lot of dynamics.

Since Jack and Roscoe is in Chicago, I will let them hear it first before it is sent back to me.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Tomy2Tone on 30 Nov 2014, 11:10 pm
Since Jack and Roscoe is in Chicago, I will let them hear it first before it is sent back to me.

That's right, I forgot. Should be fun to see what the guys say.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: roscoeiii on 1 Dec 2014, 09:06 am
:o

You drove by my place and did not stop?

Next  time, next time.

As it turns out I'm getting home at 3 am. Work is not going to be fun tomorrow...
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: a.wayne on 1 Dec 2014, 07:20 pm
Sounds like more than the amp was cryoed,  folded moongel pads, power cords, err did Cryo work  .....   :rotflmao:
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: OzarkTom on 1 Dec 2014, 08:11 pm
Sounds like more than the amp was cryoed,  folded moongel pads, power cords, err did Cryo work  .....   :rotflmao:

Just keep following this thread. Roscoe should have both amps sometime this week.

Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: a.wayne on 1 Dec 2014, 08:50 pm
I have roscoe on sat/nav, he move,  i know .............   :lol:
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: roscoeiii on 1 Dec 2014, 09:01 pm
I have roscoe on sat/nav, he move,  i know .............   :lol:

I wish I had sat/nav yesterday. I got super lost in a part of Missouri/Arkasas with zero GPS or cell signal. Added 1+ hours to my drive home. Beautiful country and fun roads for my VW GTI though, even loaded to the brim with speakers.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Tomy2Tone on 1 Dec 2014, 09:11 pm
I wish I had sat/nav yesterday. I got super lost in a part of Missouri/Arkasas with zero GPS or cell signal. Added 1+ hours to my drive home. Beautiful country and fun roads for my VW GTI though, even loaded to the brim with speakers.

Wow, you loaded those Sp Techs in a GTI? That must have been a sight!

People probably thought you intentionally lowered it.  :D
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: roscoeiii on 1 Dec 2014, 09:24 pm
I'll take a pic before I unload it. But yeah,  I was really sweating whether it would all fit.

Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: roscoeiii on 2 Dec 2014, 02:26 am
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=109670)


Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: roscoeiii on 2 Dec 2014, 02:28 am
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=109671)


Next to the Von Schweikerts for scale.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: OzarkTom on 2 Dec 2014, 02:33 am
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=109671)


Next to the Von Schweikerts for scale.

Bet that Crown amp will make those sing nicely.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: roscoeiii on 2 Dec 2014, 02:36 am
Just hooked  up the XLS and adjusting the levels
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: roscoeiii on 2 Dec 2014, 02:38 am
12 o'clock gain is too little.

Tho treble is great. Not getting the bass impact. Bass quality and detail is nice tho. 

But these are power hungry speakers so no real surprise.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: roscoeiii on 2 Dec 2014, 03:56 am
Hmm, everyone must be watching the Jets game...

3 o'clock is a much nicer setting on the XLS. It remains the treble detail that I am most impressed with in this combo. Will it end up being fatiguing? Time will tell. But we don't have the harshness and brightness in the treble that we heard at Jack's before inserting the Haley power conditioner.  Yes, overall this is a fairly forward set-up, but I am not sure what component is contributing more to this. Will need to play around with more amps to determine this.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Rclark on 2 Dec 2014, 04:10 am
So about what I figured. A very decent amp for the money and will do second system duty quite well, but it's no Ncore.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: roscoeiii on 2 Dec 2014, 04:23 am
Are you making that conclusion from my comments in my system? I wouldn't. But yes, the synergy in Jack's system was better with the ncore. Hopefully I can talk him into bringing his ncore over here to check out on these speakers.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Rclark on 2 Dec 2014, 07:26 am
Eh. "Synergy" is a highly overrated term, usually used to sell speaker cables, or win arguments. Care to put a system's overall sound quality percentage on "synergy"? Care to define it?

Imo you need a big amp or a small one, simple as that. I call synergy by another term, "expectation bias".

Unless you find the Crown's to have better "synergy" than Ncores, then by all means, do tell.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Russell Dawkins on 2 Dec 2014, 09:01 am
Eh. "Synergy" is a highly overrated term, usually used to sell speaker cables, or win arguments. Care to put a system's overall sound quality percentage on "synergy"? Care to define it?

Imo you need a big amp or a small one, simple as that. I call synergy by another term, "expectation bias".

Unless you find the Crown's to have better "synergy" than Ncores, then by all means, do tell.

Nice to hear from someone who really knows what he is talking about. :notworthy:
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: dlaloum on 2 Dec 2014, 09:36 am
Eh. "Synergy" is a highly overrated term, usually used to sell speaker cables, or win arguments. Care to put a system's overall sound quality percentage on "synergy"? Care to define it?

Imo you need a big amp or a small one, simple as that. I call synergy by another term, "expectation bias".

Unless you find the Crown's to have better "synergy" than Ncores, then by all means, do tell.

I don't think so...

An amps sound is defined by how it behaves when it hits its various limits....

How linear is it into a very low impedance (requirement: lots of current) - and how does it behave as it approaches its limits? - What forms of distortion does it add?
How does the amp handle reactive loads that have capacitance and inductance? - And is its reaction limited to particular parts of the spectrum or across the board?

The thing about classic valve amps, is that although they have power and linearity limitations, when they hit their limits they do so in a relatively benign manner - so when a transient peak triggers the nasties - they aren't too bad at all.
Solid State designs have traditionally had a lot more difficulties with this - and so have needed a lot more headroom to keep out of the nasties (coz the nasties in traditional SS designs are quite seriously bad) - Hence the need for bigger amps to achieve similar SPL's and subjective sound quality.

Now we have Class-D amps, which is really SS on steroids - it may in fact suffer from the worst of SS tendencies along with the best of SS tendencies... On the other hand, with Class-D, a 300W or 500W amp becomes quite viable under $1k, where class AB tends to max out around 100W in that price bracket... so we gain some more headroom.

What I would love to get a deeper understanding of, is what actually happens when the XLS reaches its limits and what those limits are....

But clearly big amp vs small amp doesn't tell you much about an amps ability to handle tricky loads!

Synergy is short hand (within this context) for a combination of amp and speaker which tends not to approach the limits of either component closely (also dependent on listening habbits, size of room, etc....).
Hence an amp which sound fantastic on one speaker (Quad 606 with Quad ESL989 in my case) may sound merely OK on another (606 with Gallo Ref3.2)- even though the two speakers have roughly similar SPL/W specs, their needs in terms of the amp are quite different.

To some degree I am of the old school that considers a good amp to be a wire with gain.... But it is remarkably difficult to provide that gain when the load on the end has a random handful of caps, inductors and resistors hanging off it playing havoc with different frequencies.....
The really good amps manage to still be a wire with gain under the worst conditions.

A number of other users of the Gallo's are driving them with 30W (or less) valve amps, with apparently fantastic results. (no I have not heard them- hearsay only) I am finally getting satisfying results by feeding them a diet of 880W of class-D XLS (2 x XLS2500) - Big amp vs Small amp, and both working well (providing synergy) into the same speaker....

that old black magic...

bye for now

David
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: orientalexpress on 2 Dec 2014, 02:04 pm
regarding driving That SP tech speakers,Ncore is too dry for me,i prefer DAC cherry amp over Ncore,it More musical.but Ncore sound great at low level,That only advantage Ncore have over DAC amp.Couples of my friends agree with what i heard also.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: roscoeiii on 2 Dec 2014, 09:44 pm
regarding driving That SP tech speakers,Ncore is too dry for me,i prefer DAC cherry amp over Ncore,it More musical.but Ncore sound great at low level,That only advantage Ncore have over DAC amp.Couples of my friends agree with what i heard also.

Yeah, hope to try out the ncore,  but also thought a meatier class d like Wyred, Red Dragon or DAC Cherry could be good matches. Guy I bought them from ran Wyred, and some Red Dragon amps are available locally used.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Tomy2Tone on 2 Dec 2014, 10:06 pm
Yeah, hope to try out the ncore,  but also thought a meatier class d like Wyred, Red Dragon or DAC Cherry could be good matches. Guy I bought them from ran Wyred, and some Red Dragon amps are available locally used.

I have some Wyred sx500 monoblocks you could try. If you like them we could work out a deal, if not just ship them back to me. At least you'll know how they work with your speakers.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: jackman on 2 Dec 2014, 11:44 pm
Roscoe, I'm very excited for you!  Those new speakers look massive and I've heard nothing but great things about SP Tech speakers (and I was very impressed with the smaller SP's you have). 

I'll bring by the nCore and my SAS preamp (if you don't mind) to test on those speakers.  I spent hours on Saturday, messing with different tubes in my preamp and CDP, and messing around with your power conditioner (which I will return when we meet).  From what I understand, the SP Tech speakers like lots of power, so they might be a good match for the Crown. 

I wanted to like the Crown, because the $ difference between it and the nCore was pretty significant (and I was already thinking of fun ways to spend the $$$ I was going to get when I sold the nCore, before the Crown ever hit my door).  The Crown is also SUPER compact and cool running (and silent in my system).  It must have liked the impedance of my speakers because the fan was rarely on.  The only thing I did not care for was the sound!  In my system it didn't sound anywhere near the nCore, even with power conditioning on the Crown. 

The more I listen to the nCore (with SAS 10A preamp) and the Bamberg Series 5's, the more I like it.  The speakers disappear and the sound envelopes you in a way I really enjoy.  Unfortunately, the nCore stays until I find something better to replace it (maybe something up the nCore food-chain).  I've never tried the Wyred amps but look forward to hearing Tomy's at Roscoe's house. 

Cheers,
Jack
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: DaveC113 on 2 Dec 2014, 11:57 pm
I'm still using the Crown in my system, it's a great match. Uncompressed transients at higher volumes are nice!  :green:
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: barrows on 3 Dec 2014, 12:06 am
Yeah, hope to try out the ncore,  but also thought a meatier class d like Wyred, Red Dragon or DAC Cherry could be good matches. Guy I bought them from ran Wyred, and some Red Dragon amps are available locally used.

Not sure I would call ICEpower based amps like W4S and Red Dragon meatier than nCore (nCore bass is better)...  I would say they are dark and quite veiled in comparison to the clarity of nCore.  I own a pair of DIY mono blocks based on ICEpower ASP500 modules (with mods), and my nCore DIY stereo amp is in another league.  If you want to get a little more body out of nCore be sure to replace the AC input wiring with something of more gauge and higher quality, and replace the signal input wiring as well.  A little RF damping goes a long way as well.  To me the nCore are dead neutral, and just expose the rest of the system for what it is, so to get the best out of a system with nCore amplification you do not want lean speakers, source components, or wires.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Tomy2Tone on 3 Dec 2014, 12:14 am
Not sure I would call ICEpower based amps like W4S and Red Dragon meatier than nCore (nCore bass is better)...  I would say they are dark and quite veiled in comparison to the clarity of nCore.  I own a pair of DIY mono blocks based on ICEpower ASP500 modules (with mods), and my nCore DIY stereo amp is in another league.  If you want to get a little more body out of nCore be sure to replace the AC input wiring with something of more gauge and higher quality, and replace the signal input wiring as well.  A little RF damping goes a long way as well.  To me the nCore are dead neutral, and just expose the rest of the system for what it is, so to get the best out of a system with nCore amplification you do not want lean speakers, source components, or wires.

I agree that the ICE amps in W4S are a little more veiled even compared to Pascal and the Crown amp that's going around.

Barrows, have you heard an NC400 bridged mono pair with 1200smps?  I've read on another thread its a little more musical and warm compared to the standard mono version.

Hopefully roscoeiii gets the cryo crown soon and compare to the others.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: dlaloum on 3 Dec 2014, 12:24 am
Problem with bridging is you get quite a different amp as a result... current is more constrained, and it tends to work better with speakers that have higher impedances....

If the speaker is somewhat reactive and has a bottom impedance of circa 2 ohm, bridging probably won't improve things....

If the impedance bottoms out at around 4 or 6 ohm then bridging may well be ok, and given the additional headroom, most likely an improvement!

I really don't think you can look at an amp in isolation without considering the speakers it is driving....

I experimented with bridging my Onkyo - results were not so hot into the Gallo's. (improvement in the high end, some degradation in the bass - to be expected given the drop in impedance at around 100Hz)

I don't know how class-d amps respond to bridging, but I would assume the current limitations are much the same....
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: barrows on 3 Dec 2014, 12:43 am
Yeah bridging the nCore makes little sense to me, all you get is more voltage, and less current.  Might as well pick up a NC-1200 based amp if you really need more power.  But, if you have 8 ohm speakers with a minimum at 5 ohms or something, then maybe.  But at that point the NC-1200 based amps start making sense (except for the cheap IC based input stage...)
IMO, if you need something different tonally out of the nCore DIY modules, then you should be looking at your source or speakers as the culprit.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: OzarkTom on 3 Dec 2014, 01:02 am
So about what I figured. A very decent amp for the money and will do second system duty quite well, but it's no Ncore.

I had both the NC400's and 1200's here and they were very harsh, especially on the weekends. No sysnergy at Rex's either in St. louis. Rex would have bought a pair if he had liked them. Rex has owned almost every amp ever made.

But those were the tour amps, maybe other Ncores don't have that problem. I wanted to like them, I even bought a pair of those fancy faceplates from jtwrace, you know, the ones that you promised to buy but never did.

The Crown amp does have the magic on my reference Zellaton Emotion speakers, anybody that wants to stop by my place and listen, is welcome.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: roscoeiii on 3 Dec 2014, 01:29 am
Problem with bridging is you get quite a different amp as a result... current is more constrained, and it tends to work better with speakers that have higher impedances....

If the speaker is somewhat reactive and has a bottom impedance of circa 2 ohm, bridging probably won't improve things....

If the impedance bottoms out at around 4 or 6 ohm then bridging may well be ok, and given the additional headroom, most likely an improvement!

I really don't think you can look at an amp in isolation without considering the speakers it is driving....

I experimented with bridging my Onkyo - results were not so hot into the Gallo's. (improvement in the high end, some degradation in the bass - to be expected given the drop in impedance at around 100Hz)

I don't know how class-d amps respond to bridging, but I would assume the current limitations are much the same....

Yes I haven't been able to track down impedance info on the SP Tech speakers so bridged mono amps worry me since I don't know how low the impedance dips.

I'm gonna try as many burly high powered amps as I can into the SP Tech. And we'll see what mates best. DAC, Wyred and Red Dragon have all been recommended so I hope to be able to try them out in addition to ncore and the XLS. Thanks to all who have given their impressions. Tho truly a matter of match of alp with speakers (and the resulting sound's fit with the listener's preferences)  that carries the day.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: dburna on 3 Dec 2014, 01:45 am
IMO, if you need something different tonally out of the nCore DIY modules, then you should be looking at your source or speakers as the culprit.

Thank you, sir.  This has been my experience exactly.  When I plugged the NCores into my system, I definitely heard certain deficiencies in my system, but experimenting with other components has led me to find shortcomings elsewhere, even in my choice of media player software.  NCore isn't perfect -- no component is -- but it has had fewer artifacts than most anything I've had in the playback chain.  I'm sure there are some mismatches with certain systems, but I have found it to reveal more flaws than commit them.  Of course, everyone has different goals and tastes, so in the end I guess my experience with NCore proves nothing.....except to me.   :D

Regards,  -dB
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: OzarkTom on 3 Dec 2014, 01:53 am
Yes I haven't been able to track down impedance info on the SP Tech speakers so bridged mono amps worry me since I don't know how low the impedance dips.

I'm gonna try as many burly high powered amps as I can into the SP Tech. And we'll see what mates best. DAC, Wyred and Red Dragon have all been recommended so I hope to be able to try them out in addition to ncore and the XLS. Thanks to all who have given their impressions. Tho truly a matter of match of alp with speakers (and the resulting sound's fit with the listener's preferences)  that carries the day.

It is very nice to have these amp tours here on AC, I don't see them anywhere else. You get to see if they match in your system or not. That saves  a lot of hassle.

I would hate to be a dealer today with so many dealers offering a money back 30 day trial. But the customers needs that with most of them being internet sales since most of the brick and mortar dealers are gone. If someone had the extra bucks, he could try out a new amp or speakers every month. :roll
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: dlaloum on 3 Dec 2014, 02:10 am
Urgh - it takes me at least 40 hours of tweaking, adjusting, measuring and listening to start to get a feel for a component... and the more subtle the difference (and amp differences are often subtle!) the longer it takes.

It is always very tricky working out whether it is psychoacoustics kicking in, or whether it is a real difference - our minds play tricks on us!

I tested a bunch of cartridges a few years back - they were level matched to within 3db - lots of differences everywhere - then I worked out how to level match to within less than 0.5db - suddenly 90% of the differences disappeared! And these difference - perceptually - were tonal in some cases, detail and imaging in others - and all of them were level variance fog! (well - almost all)

The idea of testing an amp a month is a nightmare unless I was doing it full time....

On the other hand - switching to the XLS amps was an immediate "ahah"  :thumb: moment, as soon as I put on the Choral movement of Beethovens 9th Symphony, I knew this was just what the speakers needed.

Now if I had two amps of similar capabilities and was trying to differentiate between them - that is a whole different ball of wax.

On the other hand it is a few years since I had the all Quad system running - so you can take my comparison with a grain of salt - however  having made all the appropriate caveats, the setup is now achieving things in the Bass that the Quads never did, along with detail and imaging in the highs that is on a par with the Quads...
Only way to really know whether the mids and highs are on a par with the stats is back to back testing, which is not an option for me now, but they are most certainly at the same overall level of performance.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: ted_b on 3 Dec 2014, 03:26 am
Yes I haven't been able to track down impedance info on the SP Tech speakers so bridged mono amps worry me since I don't know how low the impedance dips.

I'm gonna try as many burly high powered amps as I can into the SP Tech. And we'll see what mates best. DAC, Wyred and Red Dragon have all been recommended so I hope to be able to try them out in addition to ncore and the XLS. Thanks to all who have given their impressions. Tho truly a matter of match of alp with speakers (and the resulting sound's fit with the listener's preferences)  that carries the day.

I spoke with Bob last night for quite some time.  First, he is a former Crown amplifier guru (worked for them for many years and knows about the XLS).  Second, he says his impedance doesn't dip too low at all, and that the Crowns bridged should be no issues.  :)
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: dlaloum on 3 Dec 2014, 03:34 am
Heheh, that means you can get a bit more headroom from them!.... that is a LOT of Watts :icon_twisted:
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: roscoeiii on 3 Dec 2014, 03:39 am
I spoke with Bob last night for quite some time.  First, he is a former Crown amplifier guru (worked for them for many years and knows about the XLS).  Second, he says his impedance doesn't dip too low at all, and that the Crowns bridged should be no issues.  :)

Much appreciated Ted. That's great news. Waiting for the 2nd XLS to arrive...
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Russell Dawkins on 3 Dec 2014, 08:12 am
I spoke with Bob last night for quite some time.  First, he is a former Crown amplifier guru (worked for them for many years and knows about the XLS).  Second, he says his impedance doesn't dip too low at all, and that the Crowns bridged should be no issues.  :)
Didn't he also use a Crown Macro Reference as his amp when he developed the Timepieces, Continuums and Revelations (great name, by the way)? Until he blew it, or something?

No replacement for displacement, they used to say in certain 4 wheel circles.

How is Bob now? I hope he is getting some satisfaction out of life; he's earned it.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: OzarkTom on 3 Dec 2014, 10:19 pm
The cryoman says he can cryo these Crowns for 35 bucks plus the shipping back to you.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Tomy2Tone on 3 Dec 2014, 10:27 pm
The cryoman says he can cryo these Crowns for 35 bucks plus the shipping back to you.

Good to know, thanks!

Hopefully roscoeiii will receive it soon and be the first to compare the stock vs cryo version. I may be sending mine in if he thinks its a definite improvement.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: roscoeiii on 3 Dec 2014, 10:34 pm
The cryoman says he can cryo these Crowns for 35 bucks plus the shipping back to you.

Talked to him today and amp should be on its way.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: PeteG on 4 Dec 2014, 12:41 am
Much appreciated Ted. That's great news. Waiting for the 2nd XLS to arrive...
Interested in how the mono amps sound with your sptech's, also any fan noise.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: OzarkTom on 4 Dec 2014, 12:59 am
Roscoe, can you bi-amp those speakers?
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: roscoeiii on 4 Dec 2014, 01:05 am
Yes, biamping is an option.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: roscoeiii on 4 Dec 2014, 01:08 am
Interested in how the mono amps sound with your sptech's, also any fan noise.

Not a lick of fan noise that I have heard so far.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: OzarkTom on 4 Dec 2014, 01:09 am
Also try running the stock amp on the bass, and the cryo'd on the top end using the high-pass crossover on the cryo'd amp.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: dlaloum on 4 Dec 2014, 01:16 am
Interested in how the mono amps sound with your sptech's, also any fan noise.

Never heard the fans, not in extreme home theatre mode, or in quiet baroque violin mode.... if they have ever turned on, they were inaudible. (the amps sit in a modded Ikea cabinet about 6' from my listening position)
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: roscoeiii on 4 Dec 2014, 01:26 am
Also try running the stock amp on the bass, and the cryo'd on the top end using the high-pass crossover on the cryo'd amp.

Oh yeah,  will do.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: ZAKski288 on 4 Dec 2014, 01:35 am
Just upgraded those  $0.50 binding post that came with amp. ZAK
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=109788)

(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=109789)
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Tomy2Tone on 4 Dec 2014, 01:40 am
Just upgraded those  $0.50 binding post that came with amp. ZAK
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=109788)

(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=109789)

Did you find posts that actually fit? The original seem pretty small, did you drill out the hole to fit a bigger and more standard size?

Looks nice btw!
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: ZAKski288 on 4 Dec 2014, 02:09 am
Tomy2Tone,  I did not drill them out, I used 4mm diameter to connect on the inside. The part sticking out is  8mm diameter with a 4mm hole for bare wire or 4mm banana female.  The full 8mm post can be done but you need to add a spacer because of the step on the inside so you can get the nut on the post. ZAK



(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=109795)

(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=109796)
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: rodge827 on 4 Dec 2014, 02:14 am
Not a lick of fan noise that I have heard so far.

Cool :thumb:

Heck I have yet to listen to the XLS!  :nono:

Is this a tour or a keep the amp in Chicago and only hear from two guys about how it sounds?  :lol:

Patiently waiting... :sleep:
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Bemopti123 on 4 Dec 2014, 02:23 am
Seeing all that is being done to the amp as it goes along, makes me wonder what the listeners are actually hearing.  It would be interesting to repeat the tour and end it in a member's place comparing, 1, the same amp unmodded but electrically broken in VS the FrankenAmp broken in.  It would give a clear idea of what people are hearing. Unlike lives, this amp and its parallel twin can be auditioned. 
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: roscoeiii on 4 Dec 2014, 02:28 am
Cool :thumb:

Heck I have yet to listen to the XLS!  :nono:

Is this a tour or a keep the amp in Chicago and only hear from two guys about how it sounds?  :lol:

Patiently waiting... :sleep:

Apologies. Was out of town for the holiday. And with cryo amp coming,  I'll directly compare the two then send each where they need to go. If we're lucky I may get an ncore loan to compare that in my system too.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Folsom on 4 Dec 2014, 02:36 am
Zak, which binding posts are those?
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: ZAKski288 on 4 Dec 2014, 02:49 am
Salis Audio, I got them on ebay. Hopefully you can open link. You may be able to get the short ones. I trimmed 3mm off them.  ZAK
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=109797)


http://www.ebay.com/itm/131101922276?_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2648&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: steve f on 4 Dec 2014, 05:51 am
I finally got a chance to plug in my xls 1500. The only pair of speakers in the house at the moment are Ed Schilling's Horns. (I moved about 1800 miles recently. Almost everything audio is still in boxes.) I'm just using a pair of cheap interconnects, standard rope wound 12 gauge wire, and a choice of a Horn Shoppe Truth preamp or a Morrison ELAD. The only other amp that's out and playable is a Transcendent SE-OTL at a mighty watt and a half. The movers broke the output posts on another. 

So I really can't do a comparison. I'm going to keep unpacking, and keep listening as the Crown breaks in.
I'm originally from Chicago. I am very curious as to what the Windy City guys have to say. Out of the box, mine ain't bad at all. Different house, new amp, this should be fun.

Steve
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: roscoeiii on 4 Dec 2014, 03:15 pm
Listened some more last night. And again with the SP Tech, I am finding the treble detail very impressive. Jury is still out on the bass since I haven't got speaker placement dialed in and there are some serious suckouts in the room at present.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Tomy2Tone on 4 Dec 2014, 03:29 pm
Listened some more last night. And again with the SP Tech, I am finding the treble detail very impressive. Jury is still out on the bass since I haven't got speaker placement dialed in and there are some serious suckouts in the room at present.

Nice. Still have the gain at 3 o'clock?

Between 3 and 4 o'clock sounds best in my system. I added some more weight on top of each amp and it makes for a nice sound. I think it tames it just a bit.

If you have anything to put on top you should give it a try. 5 to 6 pounds seems right.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: ted_b on 4 Dec 2014, 03:37 pm
Personally I would never put a weight on any piece of electronics...it creates a blocked path to ground, where the vibrations from inside the unit, then migrate to chassis can now no longer dissipate to the next sink (rack, furniture, etc).   It changes the sound all right, but not in your best interest IMHO.   I would go the other route; that is put the thing on3 or 4 audiopoints or whatever, creating a fast easy path to ground.  My $.02.  I am not there to listen, so this is purely conjecture.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: steve f on 4 Dec 2014, 05:15 pm
Just a quick comment. Although still breaking in, my 1500 shows no signs of two dimensional depth. I've got good detail and the sound stage is open. That fan really is silent. So far I am impressed.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: wushuliu on 4 Dec 2014, 06:12 pm
Salis Audio, I got them on ebay. Hopefully you can open link. You may be able to get the short ones. I trimmed 3mm off them.  ZAK

Unfortunately those binding posts are probably no better than the stock, maybe even worse. A lot of those direct from China binding posts are poor quality. The 'pure copper' is highly questionable especially given the price.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: roscoeiii on 4 Dec 2014, 06:17 pm
Just a quick comment. Although still breaking in, my 1500 shows no signs of two dimensional depth. I've got good detail and the sound stage is open. That fan really is silent. So far I am impressed.

3D depth was an issue at Jack's too. In my room speaker placement restrictions make depth difficult to achieve regardless of amp. And not a huge sonic priority for me.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: steve f on 4 Dec 2014, 08:54 pm
I was trying to say that 3D depth was fine. Not a problem at all.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: ZAKski288 on 4 Dec 2014, 09:58 pm
Unfortunately those binding posts are probably no better than the stock, maybe even worse. A lot of those direct from China binding posts are poor quality. The 'pure copper' is highly questionable especially given the price.
Yes, they are not copper, maybe plated brass, But the original binding post really are terrible.  ZAK
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Tomy2Tone on 4 Dec 2014, 10:33 pm
Yes, they are not copper, maybe plated brass, But the original binding post really are terrible.  ZAK

At least the ones you've installed allow you to use spades, correct? Where as the original posts do not.

If anything, you get more functionality and they look better!  :thumb:
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Folsom on 4 Dec 2014, 11:03 pm
Ya, the stock ones only allow bare wire of 14ga, MAYBE 12ga.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: ZAKski288 on 5 Dec 2014, 12:22 am
Yes, you can use spades,bananas, and what every size (AWG) you can stuff  in 4mm hole. You might be able to find some better post but they are definitely better than stock ones.  ZAK
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: OzarkTom on 5 Dec 2014, 01:27 am
The cryo amp was mailed to Roscoe today. He is 25 miles from the cryoman, and the post office said it will be delivered in 2-3 days.

The cryoman used 7 pounds of lead shot on top of the amp. He said that sounded the best with the gel pads underneath. He was going to try more weight, but ran out of time.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: jackman on 5 Dec 2014, 02:42 am
I was trying to say that 3D depth was fine. Not a problem at all.

Compared to what? Don't get me wrong, I thought The Crown sounded really good, it was very quiet and powerful, but it was very flat and 2D compared to the NCore.  I wish I would've had another amp to compare it to because the price disparity makes a comparison unfair.  The Crown does a lot of things right and at a bargain price. Soundstage and overall refinement are not strengths of the XLS.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: rodge827 on 5 Dec 2014, 03:20 am
The Crown does a lot of things right and at a bargain price. Soundstage and overall refinement are not strengths of the XLS.

So sayeth Jack!   :wink:
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: OzarkTom on 5 Dec 2014, 03:34 am
Compared to what? Don't get me wrong, I thought The Crown sounded really good, it was very quiet and powerful, but it was very flat and 2D compared to the NCore.  I wish I would've had another amp to compare it to because the price disparity makes a comparison unfair.  The Crown does a lot of things right and at a bargain price. Soundstage and overall refinement are not strengths of the XLS.

No flatness at my place. Come down with Roscoe and I will show you. And I have a huge soundstage width, bigger than the Job amp and that is one of the strengths that the Job amp has. My Zellatons totally disappear.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: roscoeiii on 5 Dec 2014, 03:51 am
And again, could be a synergy thing. I don't doubt that some folks are getting 3d effects and others are not. Both jack and I remarked on the greater depth with his ncore.

But even prior to XLS, I wasn't getting a lot of depth in my room. A known room problem I must live with.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: OzarkTom on 5 Dec 2014, 03:58 am
I just got off the phone with my buddy Rex, and he had some extra binding posts that he has used on his Pioneer speakers. Like Zak, he did not have to solder or cut the holes any larger, just file one of the posts down. But his posts are brass and he wants to buy some of the copper ones. if you use these like Zak or Rex, for any warranty repairs you can insert the stock ones back in easily. Rex says Cardas posts possibly might work, but you will have to drill the holes larger and probably make a special washer.

Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: ZAKski288 on 5 Dec 2014, 04:57 am
 :o
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: rajacat on 5 Dec 2014, 05:25 am
Yes, they are not copper, maybe plated brass, But the original binding post really are terrible.  ZAK
What about these Pomona binding posts? They're gold plated copper. US manufactured. http://www.digikey.com/product-search/en?wt.z_cid=ref_hearst_0211_buynow&site=us&mpart=3770-0&v=501

(http://media.digikey.com/Photos/Pomona%20Photos/3770-0_sml.jpg)
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: steve f on 5 Dec 2014, 06:35 am
Jackman, I made no direct comparisons. I really didn't feel the need to make any. For a new amp it was very good. Actually I was surprised that some experienced a 2d image.

 I'll try a different preamp, and substitute a class A OTL tube amp and two ss amps in the system.  I'll report back after the weekend.

Rajacat, I've used Pomona banana plugs and thought they were a quality product. I'll try their binding posts myself.

Steve
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: OzarkTom on 5 Dec 2014, 10:26 am
Zak, I went ahead and purchased those on Ebay that you posted for $14.59 and free shipping. The description says those are copper with gold plating. I like the idea of getting 8 pieces, I can do two of my Crown amps. Rex said even I can do this. :thumb:
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: DaveC113 on 6 Dec 2014, 01:12 am
Luckily the Chinese posts aren't pricey, the chances they are actually pure copper seem slim to none.

I had some Pomona posts in my SET amp that I've been wanting to upgrade so I put them in the Crown, it definitely seems to help sound quality and they fit with no modifications. Just make sure to get the gold plated tellurium copper Pomona posts instead of the cheaper brass ones.

Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: opnly bafld on 6 Dec 2014, 01:52 am
I was trying to say that 3D depth was fine. Not a problem at all.

Compared to what? Don't get me wrong, I thought The Crown sounded really good, it was very quiet and powerful, but it was very flat and 2D compared to the NCore.  I wish I would've had another amp to compare it to because the price disparity makes a comparison unfair.  The Crown does a lot of things right and at a bargain price. Soundstage and overall refinement are not strengths of the XLS.

FWIW
Don't get me wrong, but steve f has a lot of experience with a wide variety of quality kit.  :thumb:

Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: ZAKski288 on 6 Dec 2014, 02:10 am
Luckily the Chinese posts aren't pricey, the chances they are actually pure copper seem slim to none.

I had some Pomona posts in my SET amp that I've been wanting to upgrade so I put them in the Crown, it definitely seems to help sound quality and they fit with no modifications. Just make sure to get the gold plated tellurium copper Pomona posts instead of the cheaper brass ones.
They are not copper, after trimming 3mm off them, I think they are plated brass most likely.  ZAK
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Tomy2Tone on 6 Dec 2014, 02:12 am
Thanks rajacat and DaveC113 for the Pomona suggestion, just ordered a set for my crowns.

On a side note, anybody try the Hammond 193 filter choke tweak? Just got a couple of 193L's and I must say they do make a noticable difference, not huge but can tell the difference when it's out of the loop. Now waiting for the 193M to show up and see what it adds to the equation.

I saw the thread regarding the filter choke earlier in the week and figured what the heck. Seems like it's been around for a while but never heard of if till now.

The crowns do sound better with it, again not by a lot but definitely better. I'll see what the 193M does and report back.

Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: OzarkTom on 6 Dec 2014, 04:26 am
Thanks rajacat and DaveC113 for the Pomona suggestion, just ordered a set for my crowns.

Where did you get your pomonas? The best deal I found is this one for 5 posts and$34.50.

http://www.datacomtools.com/store/3770.html

Cryoman said to get a set of binding posts and h will cryo them so I can put them in   the cryo amp.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Tomy2Tone on 6 Dec 2014, 04:33 am
Where did you get your pomonas? The best deal I found is this one for 5 posts and$34.50.

http://www.datacomtools.com/store/3770.html

Cryoman said to get a set of binding posts and h will cryo them so I can put them in   the cryo amp.

That's a good deal! I just got them off amazon for $49.95. I'm addicted to two day shipping.  :D

I think my patience is worse than a little kid at Christmas sometimes. Anxiously awaiting to hear roscoeiii's impression of the cryo amp so I can send mine in too!
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: OzarkTom on 6 Dec 2014, 04:40 am
That's a good deal! I just got them off amazon for $49.95. I'm addicted to two day shipping.  :D

I think my patience is worse than a little kid at Christmas sometimes. Anxiously awaiting to hear roscoeiii's impression of the cryo amp so I can send mine in too!

Shipping is $14.92, going to Amazon for 2day shipping.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: OzarkTom on 6 Dec 2014, 04:52 am
I bought the last one in stock. :thumb:
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: roscoeiii on 6 Dec 2014, 01:37 pm
Cryo'd XLS showed up last night. Stay tuned for cryo vs normal comparison as well as bridged mono and biamping reports. This will be a fun weekend! Thanks for all the generosity that has made this possible.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Tomy2Tone on 6 Dec 2014, 03:21 pm
Cryo'd XLS showed up last night. Stay tuned for cryo vs normal comparison as well as bridged mono and biamping reports. This will be a fun weekend! Thanks for all the generosity that has made this possible.

Whoo hoo!

I tried to pm you some info on the Wyred amps but your box is full. Let me know when it's ok to forward you that.

Should be a fun weekend indeed!  :hyper:
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: roscoeiii on 6 Dec 2014, 04:07 pm
Whoo hoo!

I tried to pm you some info on the Wyred amps but your box is full. Let me know when it's ok to forward you that.

Should be a fun weekend indeed!  :hyper:

Oops,  there is room now.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Tomy2Tone on 6 Dec 2014, 04:24 pm
Oops,  there is room now.

Cool, just sent you a pm.

Started thinking you were getting a bunch of requests to come over this weekend to check out the plethora of amps and speakers.  :D
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: a.wayne on 6 Dec 2014, 04:45 pm
Roscoe,

Are you using  your regular speakers , the new one or both for evaluation ..?
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: roscoeiii on 6 Dec 2014, 06:34 pm
Roscoe,

Are you using  your regular speakers , the new one or both for evaluation ..?

So far the SP Tech,  but will try other speakers too this weekend.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Odal3 on 7 Dec 2014, 03:20 am
To pass some time until we hear more info from the tour amp:

DaveC113 - How's the 2-way speaker project you mentioned going where you planned to use the Crown only for the low-end with the crossover as high as 800hz.  What drivers are you using? Curious to hear if you have had a chance to try if this set-up works well with the crown and if it is easy to integrate the drivers and amp this way.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: rodge827 on 7 Dec 2014, 01:56 pm

 
 :duh:
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: roscoeiii on 7 Dec 2014, 02:50 pm
C'mon Chris.  Please have some patience. It has been in two locations already. Though both in the Chicagoland area. I was out of town for 5 or 6 day due to Thanksgiving. And have held on since then I  order to be able to report on bridging them as monoblocks, biamping and comparing cryo vs stock. (Wasn't able to do that until the cryo showed up on Friday night) . Then these will be in their way.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Tomy2Tone on 7 Dec 2014, 02:53 pm
Hey Chris, I appologize for the tour not moving faster.

I guess I underestimated the desire to hear this crown amp as well as the time it might be spent in the Chicago area. Seems like the timing of the cryo amp being available with the tour amp didn't go like one would have thought. It did seem to take a while for Roscoe to receive the cryo amp which was only 25 miles away.

All that and plus Roscoe getting new speakers he's trying to find a matching amp for make a little more than usual stint for the tour amp. But in the end I think it's worth waiting for a unique perspective that Roscoe has the ability to give with all this converging at his place. I'm sure Roscoe will make some evaluations today and get the tour amp out to you this week.  :thumb:

Thanks for your patience and passion to hear this amp!
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: OzarkTom on 7 Dec 2014, 03:37 pm
Cryoman gave me a tip on using these nicer Binding posts. He recommends to try and find a plastic washer and nut to replace the metal washer and nut. Cryoman says there is less metal to mess up the signal. I think that makes sense.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: a.wayne on 7 Dec 2014, 03:51 pm
Personally dont have an issue with  tour pace , once there's communication by posting updates , so waiting on the cryo amp and running them together is fine by me and understandable  it will add another week to the "Tour". 

Info so far has been great and pretty much as i had expected . Took a look at other crown products and this would be the one i would go for if using for subwoofer duty , man this thing is loaded and very flexable if it can deliver the lows , bingo ...!


https://www.parts-express.com/crown-xti-1002-xti-2-series-power-amplifier--245-405
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Wind Chaser on 7 Dec 2014, 04:14 pm
Cryoman gave me a tip on using these nicer Binding posts. He recommends to try and find a plastic washer and nut to replace the metal washer and nut. Cryoman says there is less metal to mess up the signal. I think that makes sense.

I'm just going to quote myself from elsewhere - There is another way that is even better... use the existing posts to clamp the speaker cable directly to the output leads. IMO direct contact is always better than passing a signal through another medium. To maximize the payoff, do it at both ends; i.e. the speakers too. The difference in SQ is very real, more so than some costly tweaks which people rave about.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: OzarkTom on 7 Dec 2014, 04:33 pm
I'm just going to quote myself from elsewhere - There is another way that is even better... use the existing posts to clamp the speaker cable directly to the output leads. IMO direct contact is always better than passing a signal through another medium. To maximize the payoff, do it at both ends; i.e. the speakers too. The difference in SQ is very real, more so than some costly tweaks which people rave about.

You are correct, that is the best way. But I think it is impossible on the Crown. There are no wire leads inside the amp
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: wushuliu on 7 Dec 2014, 05:05 pm

Come on guys let's get this tour moving!  :D

Chris

I think one should always assume anything that takes place during the holiday season will never happen in a timely fashion. In fact I think folks should take extra precaution to use fastest and most insured shipping possible during this time.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: DaveC113 on 7 Dec 2014, 06:50 pm
To pass some time until we hear more info from the tour amp:

DaveC113 - How's the 2-way speaker project you mentioned going where you planned to use the Crown only for the low-end with the crossover as high as 800hz.  What drivers are you using? Curious to hear if you have had a chance to try if this set-up works well with the crown and if it is easy to integrate the drivers and amp this way.

The enclosure for the 15" woofers (I have Acoustic Elegance and Volt woofers to try out) is still being designed and the mid-high section is being developed and measured. Things are going really well, I am very happy with the sound so far. I do intend to try an 800 Hz xo point but I expect it will end up much lower... it depends on how large the waveguide will be, a very large waveguide is technically ideal and would allow for a lower crossover point but there are tradeoffs that need to be balanced. So far the soundstage and imaging is the best I've heard from any speaker at any price, the room boundaries disappear and the stage depth is far past the rear wall and extends up in front of the speakers in some recordings, with a realism like you can reach out and touch the image. So I'm very happy but there are a lot of challenges too!  :green:

Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: roscoeiii on 7 Dec 2014, 07:56 pm
I think one should always assume anything that takes place during the holiday season will never happen in a timely fashion. In fact I think folks should take extra precaution to use fastest and most insured shipping possible during this time.

My plan was to put the amp in a paper bag, seal it with scotch tape, and use a single  safety pin to attach a label that says: "To Chris in NJ"

I'll just leave that outside my building for the postman to pick-up and everything should be fine.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: rodge827 on 7 Dec 2014, 08:35 pm
Perhaps a cotton diaper would be more appropriate.  :lol:

Haha I kid myself!
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: roscoeiii on 7 Dec 2014, 08:40 pm
Perhaps a cotton diaper would be more appropriate. 

Diaper packing it is.  :thumb:
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: rajacat on 7 Dec 2014, 08:51 pm
The enclosure for the 15" woofers (I have Acoustic Elegance and Volt woofers to try out) is still being designed and the mid-high section is being developed and measured. Things are going really well, I am very happy with the sound so far. I do intend to try an 800 Hz xo point but I expect it will end up much lower... it depends on how large the waveguide will be, a very large waveguide is technically ideal and would allow for a lower crossover point but there are tradeoffs that need to be balanced. So far the soundstage and imaging is the best I've heard from any speaker at any price, the room boundaries disappear and the stage depth is far past the rear wall and extends up in front of the speakers in some recordings, with a realism like you can reach out and touch the image. So I'm very happy but there are a lot of challenges too!  :green:
I'm building similar speakers. :) AE TD15m/SEOS18/ba750.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: steve f on 7 Dec 2014, 09:54 pm
Since we are getting off topic while the Crown moves around, I have a favor to ask. Rajacat and DaveC are posting about new speakers. I'm a speaker guy and always want to learn what others are building. So guys, please post a link or two about what you are doing.

On topic. Something has started buzzing in my system.  I've got the Crown eliminated as a source. There goes my 1500 break in time as I try to find the problem. It might be the outlet itself isn't grounded. We've had a bunch of problems.

I had to fire a contractor for substandard work. I bet he skipped the ground wire.

Steve
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: jackman on 7 Dec 2014, 10:11 pm
Diaper packing it is.  :thumb:

Just make sure it's not a used diaper!  I hear one will make your system sound like... :roll:
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: roscoeiii on 7 Dec 2014, 10:17 pm
OK, first the cryo vs stock. Gotta say, I'm a cryo believer here. How did they stack up? Cryo was a bit more fleshed out (better able to make out harmonics and the resonant qualities of acoustic instruments) and a bit more delicate. Other main difference? Bass. Better impact from the cryo version. Imaging also seemed improved, though that's not a real strength of my set up.

This is with same cards for both amps.

So far, I've become a believer.

That said, I'm worried that for either of these amps, the highs could become fatiguing at high volumes. With these quite forward speakers. Something I'll be paying close attention to.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: OzarkTom on 7 Dec 2014, 10:31 pm

That said, I'm worried that for either of these amps, the highs could become fatiguing at high volumes. With these quite forward speakers. Something I'll be paying close attention to.

A different power cord could easily solve that problem. What power cord are you using?
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Tomy2Tone on 7 Dec 2014, 10:41 pm
Very nice Roscoe!

The way you described the cryo version is how I would detail what happened when adding both of the Hammond chokes in my system with the crowns.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: roscoeiii on 7 Dec 2014, 10:42 pm
A different power cord could easily solve that problem. What power cord are you using?

It is  a big burly thing and hardly a stock cord, but I'll have to check the model. Power cords are on the to-do list...
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: DaveC113 on 7 Dec 2014, 10:43 pm
rajacat, sounds great.  :thumb:  One of my challenges is I'm using a cone driver and not a compression driver in my waveguide/horn and there isn't a ton of info on the subject. I'm getting great results as far as the sound but the boost in efficiency is greater than I expected. It would be very simple to build this speaker without any waveguide, but the qualities it brings to the table are worth it imo.

steve f, I have no further info, but at it's basis it is a FAST with a waveguide. Simple in concept but complicated a bit by controlling directivity of the full range driver. I hope you get the electrical figured out!

roscoe, thanks for the report! I have found that most things need a little time to settle from shipping, not a full break in but you'll probably get at least a few hours of edgy sound.

Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: OzarkTom on 7 Dec 2014, 10:44 pm
Very nice Roscoe!

The way you described the cryo version is how I would detail what happened when adding both of the Hammond chokes in my system with the crowns.

When I get the Pomonas in, I will send those to Salis Audio and then off to the Cryoman it goes. :D
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: rodge827 on 7 Dec 2014, 10:48 pm
Just make sure it's not a used diaper!  I hear one will make your system sound like... :roll:
Shipping hazardous material is against the law!  :nono:
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: OzarkTom on 7 Dec 2014, 10:49 pm
Dave is right, let the cryo amp burn in 24 hours straight before you really judge it. I have found this is the case with all components after it has been transported or shipped.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: roscoeiii on 7 Dec 2014, 11:46 pm
Yes, even now the treble is sounding less harsh and fatiguing. Will revisit some earlier tracks shortly. Then time to try these bridged into mono!
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: OzarkTom on 7 Dec 2014, 11:56 pm
Yes, even now the treble is sounding less harsh and fatiguing. Will revisit some earlier tracks shortly. Then time to try these bridged into mono!

Do you have the amps marked? Don't send the crro'd one off to Chris.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: roscoeiii on 8 Dec 2014, 12:07 am
Do you have the amps marked? Don't send the crro'd one off to Chris.

My plan was to flip a coin. But if you'd rather, I will scratch “cryo" into yours with my car keys
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Tomy2Tone on 8 Dec 2014, 12:09 am
My plan was to flip a coin. But if you'd rather, I will scratch “cryo" into yours with my car keys

I say flip a coin!  :D
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: rodge827 on 8 Dec 2014, 12:11 am
Do you have the amps marked? Don't send the crro'd one off to Chris.

  :wtf:
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: OzarkTom on 8 Dec 2014, 12:11 am
My plan was to flip a coin. But if you'd rather, I will scratch “cryo" into yours with my car keys

Just keep that stock unit wrapped in it's diaper. :thumb:
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Tomy2Tone on 8 Dec 2014, 12:14 am
Just keep that stock unit wrapped in it's diaper. :thumb:

Doh!  :D
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: roscoeiii on 8 Dec 2014, 12:29 am
Returned to music I'd listened to earlier, and treble is much less of an issue. Now time to change the power cable...
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: roscoeiii on 8 Dec 2014, 02:20 am
Change to the Audience Power Chord gave some improvements including to the treble.  Things felt a bit more fleshed out,  fuller with the Audience.

Then it was time to go monoblocks! And whaddya know. Improvements! In the impact of the bass in particular. As those of you who are familiar with SP Tech speakers know,  they are known to benefit from gobs of power. And yep. Bass was fuller with greater detail and impact.

As for the rest of the frequency range,  monos give a greater sense of ease.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: OzarkTom on 8 Dec 2014, 02:31 am
Change to the Audience Power Chord gave some improvements including to the treble.  Things felt a bit more fleshed out,  fuller with the Audience.

Then it was time to go monoblocks! And whaddya know. Improvements! In the impact of the bass in particular. As those of you who are familiar with SP Tech speakers know,  they are known to benefit from gobs of power. And yep. Bass was fuller with greater detail and impact.

As for the rest of the frequency range,  monos give a greater sense of ease.

So did the lights in Chicago dim when you hooked up the monos? That is 1550 wpc into a 4 ohm load. :o
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Tomy2Tone on 8 Dec 2014, 02:42 am
So did the lights in Chicago dim when you hooked up the monos? That is 1550 wpc into a 4 ohm load. :o

Yeah baby!  8)
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: roscoeiii on 8 Dec 2014, 02:58 am
new mandatory mood lighting for the neighbors.

Hope no one needs to use their microwave. Because all the juice is mine!

Now let's see how the monos do at low volumes.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: jackman on 8 Dec 2014, 03:14 am
Take pictures when the cops show up!  wish I could have arranged a way to swing by hear the new speakers but this week has been rough. Looking forward to when my biggest concern involves amps and cables, magic pucks and cryo treatment.

Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: rodge827 on 8 Dec 2014, 03:16 am
new mandatory mood lighting for the neighbors.

Hope no one needs to use their microwave. Because all the juice is mine!

Now let's see how the monos do at low volumes.

 8)
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: rodge827 on 8 Dec 2014, 04:25 am
Would ERS Cloth help a digital amp?
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: roscoeiii on 8 Dec 2014, 04:26 am
Oh wow. The power! At low volumes this seems to be translating into great bass impact and detail  that I wouldn't expect at such volumes. May have something to do with these speakers being transmission line (from something I read somewhere) . But not sure.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Tomy2Tone on 8 Dec 2014, 04:29 am
Oh wow. The power! At low volumes this seems to be translating into great bass impact and detail  that I wouldn't expect at such volumes. May have something to do with these speakers being transmission line (from something I read somewhere) . But not sure.

Did you ever find out the impedance and sensitivity of your new speakers?
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: roscoeiii on 8 Dec 2014, 04:37 am
Didn't get those details. But they are likely close to that of the Continuums which are identical except for the bass not being transmission line. Here are the specs from a review of the Continuums:

Frequency Response: 25Hz - 24kHz +/- 2dB (typically +/- 1dB) -3dB @ 25Hz & 30kHz

Phase response: Less than 360° from 100Hz - 20kHz

Group Delay Response: Less than 1 mS delay shift from 100Hz - 20kHz

Directivity: 90° Horizontal x 30° Vertical from 900Hz - 10kHz.

Peak Power Handling: Greater than 1000 watts (10mS)

Short Term Power Handling: 600 watts (I.E.C. 268-5)

Long Term Handling: 250 watts (I.E.C. 268-5)

Sensitivity: 91dB SPL @ 2.83V /1-Meter, 88dB SPL @ 1-watt/1-Meter

Impedance: 4-ohms (nominal) - 3.2-ohms (minimum)

Crossover: 4th order symmetrical, in phase Linkwitz-Riley @ 750Hz.

Power Requirements: 50 watts RMS/Channel (200 - 750 WRMS/Ch. preferred)

Horizontal Dispersion: +/- 45° - 600Hz to beyond 10kHz (standard -6dB Beamwidth Limits)

Vertical Dispersion: +/- 15° - 600Hz to beyond 10kHz
(standard -6dB Beamwidth Limits)

Low Frequency Driver: (2) - 8" Aluminum Cones w/Phase Plug & Cast Magnesium Frame

High Frequency Driver: Waveguide Loaded 1" Textile Dome - Ferrofluid Cooled
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Tomy2Tone on 8 Dec 2014, 04:40 am
Nice!

I'm glad it's not just me liking these crown xls 1500's in bridged mode anymore!  :D
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: roscoeiii on 8 Dec 2014, 05:16 am
Attention XLS folks!!! Not sure for how long, but Amazon has the XLS2000 for 17% off their normal price. So you can get the 2000 for around the price of the 1500, at $356 shipped. Sadly, limit of 1 per customer, for those of you inspired by my recent monoblock comments.

http://www.amazon.com/Crown-NXLS2000-0-US-Power-Amplifier/dp/B003HZPKXC/ref=lh_ni_t?ie=UTF8&psc=1&smid=ATVPDKIKX0DER
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: steve f on 8 Dec 2014, 01:51 pm
Amazon changed the price. The deal is over.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: a.wayne on 8 Dec 2014, 02:33 pm
Roscoe ,

It would be great to compare MONO setup to Jack 's  NCores , also easy to tell the cryo amp its the one with  the .5" shrinkage .... :)
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: roscoeiii on 8 Dec 2014, 02:48 pm
That'll depend on Jack's schedule and I know he has been slammed lately.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: steve f on 8 Dec 2014, 09:47 pm
The Amazon deal is back up...sort of. Discount is 15% no longer 17%.

Nope it's a scam. I tried to run it but doesn't provide a good deal.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Tomy2Tone on 8 Dec 2014, 09:54 pm
Ma,Ma,Ma, My Pomona!

Just got the Pomona binding posts installed in my crown monos and I have to agree with DaveC113, an improvement indeed. Not bad for $50.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: OzarkTom on 8 Dec 2014, 10:31 pm
Did you have to file any of the posts tomy2? Mine will be here tomorrow.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Tomy2Tone on 8 Dec 2014, 10:41 pm
Did you have to file any of the posts tomy2? Mine will be here tomorrow.

No, it was close on the positive post for the right channel butting up next to that little black box. I thought about hacking the end off but it seemed really secure so I just went with it.

I think they definitely improve the sound, a little cleaner and smoother.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: OzarkTom on 8 Dec 2014, 10:42 pm
The Amazon deal is back up...sort of. Discount is 15% no longer 17%.

Nope it's a scam. I tried to run it but doesn't provide a good deal.

I also ran it and the final price is $373.39. That is a heck of a deal for a new 2000.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: OzarkTom on 9 Dec 2014, 02:18 am
I wonder what Roscoe is up to tonight? :scratch:
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: roscoeiii on 9 Dec 2014, 02:29 am
Funny you ask. First,  I was realizing that what benefits I heard from dual monos yesterday wasn't from BRIDGED monos. I hadn't changed the setting to Bridge Bypass on the amps themselves. So now there are further imorovements to what I heard yesterday. Mainly greater detail and dynamic impact at lower volumes.

I also switched over to XLR inputs after reading that these amps liked higher voltage inputs, more in the pro range. Some improvements I liked but treble started getting a tad bright again. So I will try to deal with that by lowering the gain on the amp. With DSPeaker  RCA outputs at a lineout max of 1.6 V, I preferred the amps at max gain. With the higher XLR output from the DSPeaker,  I'm gonna see how 3 o'clock sounds. I do like having this flexibility to play around with gain. As a side note,  I think that the ability to adjust gain on the iTube would be another thing in its favor when paired with these amps.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: OzarkTom on 9 Dec 2014, 02:45 am
How about the clip circuit, on or off?
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: roscoeiii on 9 Dec 2014, 02:48 am
Believe that it is off in both,  but I will confirm.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: roscoeiii on 9 Dec 2014, 03:22 am
OK, so I've dialed the gain on the XLS down to about 3 o'clock and that seems to nail it in my system. The impact is there, but the forwardness and brightness in the treble was not problematic. For those of you who hear this quality in the treble, I encourage you to fiddle with things, because it can be dealt with in a number of ways (power conditioner, lowering gain, power cords, IME).
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Tomy2Tone on 9 Dec 2014, 03:24 am
OK, so I've dialed the gain on the XLS down to about 3 o'clock and that seems to nail it in my system. The impact is there, but the forwardness and brightness in the treble was not problematic. For those of you who hear this quality in the treble, I encourage you to fiddle with things, because it can be dealt with in a number of ways (power conditioner, lowering gain, power cords, IME).

Even though we have different speakers, everything you've said so far about the bridged monos and the gain mirror my thoughts.  :thumb:
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: steve f on 9 Dec 2014, 03:34 am
Ozark Tom, I ran the amp on Amazon again and this time it worked correctly. I guess I have to take back all of my bad thoughts. It is a good deal.

Steve
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: roscoeiii on 9 Dec 2014, 03:40 am
Ozark Tom, I ran the amp on Amazon again and this time it worked correctly. I guess I have to take back all of my bad thoughts. It is a good deal.

Steve

Steve, think they  did take the 17% off deal down for a while and then put a 15% deal up. You weren't imagining things.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: roscoeiii on 9 Dec 2014, 03:45 am
How about the clip circuit, on or off?

Well, clip circuit was on in one amp and off in the other. Now off in both.

Will go back and A/B cryo and stock again to see if that affects anything.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Odal3 on 9 Dec 2014, 05:36 am
The enclosure for the 15" woofers (I have Acoustic Elegance and Volt woofers to try out) is still being designed and the mid-high section is being developed and measured. Things are going really well, I am very happy with the sound so far. I do intend to try an 800 Hz xo point but I expect it will end up much lower... it depends on how large the waveguide will be, a very large waveguide is technically ideal and would allow for a lower crossover point but there are tradeoffs that need to be balanced. So far the soundstage and imaging is the best I've heard from any speaker at any price, the room boundaries disappear and the stage depth is far past the rear wall and extends up in front of the speakers in some recordings, with a realism like you can reach out and touch the image. So I'm very happy but there are a lot of challenges too!  :green:
Nice. Hope your build turns out good!
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Odal3 on 9 Dec 2014, 06:17 am
Ma,Ma,Ma, My Pomona!

Just got the Pomona binding posts installed in my crown monos and I have to agree with DaveC113, an improvement indeed. Not bad for $50.

Good to hear your mod sounds better. But what about the speakon connectors on the crown? Are they good enough to use? I never tried speakon myself so I'm just curious.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: dlaloum on 9 Dec 2014, 08:40 am
Ditto here - what are peoples opinion of speakons? (compared to spades and bananas...)
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Russell Dawkins on 9 Dec 2014, 09:41 am
I think it's safe to say the Speakon is a well designed connector designed at the outset to be safe and locking and to pass high current by ensuring the contact surface area is as large as feasible. I guess a very well designed locking banana plug will approach them in terms of area of contact, but only the locking type, and only "approach". A well implemented spade is also good, but those looking for the ultimate connection will probably find a way to twist and clamp the internal wire to the speaker feed wire, or else solder them. For the record, the best connection of all is a wire wrap around a square post, but that's completely impractical for this use.

The Speakon is probably the best convenient connection and is the pro sound industry standard for good reason.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: dlaloum on 9 Dec 2014, 10:17 am
Thanks for that... I was already seriously considering making a new set of speaker cables, I will ensure that the new set uses the Speakons then!
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: jk@home on 9 Dec 2014, 10:43 am
OK, so I've dialed the gain on the XLS down to about 3 o'clock and that seems to nail it in my system. The impact is there, but the forwardness and brightness in the treble was not problematic. For those of you who hear this quality in the treble, I encourage you to fiddle with things, because it can be dealt with in a number of ways (power conditioner, lowering gain, power cords, IME).

How does doing two amps in bridge mode, with the XLR inputs effect the hiss produced by the amp? When I tried a single 1500, on my KEF LS50s, I got a little hiss out of the speakers. Not audible a foot or so away, but still not dead quiet like my consumer amp. At the time, I was limited to a no gain preamp, which probably was a factor.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Tomy2Tone on 9 Dec 2014, 12:19 pm
Good to hear your mod sounds better. But what about the speakon connectors on the crown? Are they good enough to use? I never tried speakon myself so I'm just curious.

I don't have any speaker cables that are ended with the speakon but I did try an adaptor. Its a banana plug to speakon adaptor i picked up from Sweetwater.

(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=110094)

When I tried them I thought the noise floor did lower but it seemed to sacrifice some detail. I had to crank the gain on the amp all the way up but still felt it did not sound as good as my banana plug connection. Probably not the best adaptor and use for my application so it will be nice to know if someone has a true speakon cable to use and see how it sounds in comparison.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: roscoeiii on 9 Dec 2014, 02:30 pm
How does doing two amps in bridge mode, with the XLR inputs effect the hiss produced by the amp? When I tried a single 1500, on my KEF LS50s, I got a little hiss out of the speakers. Not audible a foot or so away, but still not dead quiet like my consumer amp. At the time, I was limited to a no gain preamp, which probably was a factor.

There was some hiss when bridged at max gain. I didn't notice any hiss when not bridged,  with the RCA inputs. Like with your awesome LS50s the hiss was audible at about 1 ft but not at listening position. With  gain  at 3pm, no hiss.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: roscoeiii on 9 Dec 2014, 02:33 pm
Anyone know where to get speaker cables that have Speakon on one end and bananas or spades on the other?
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: cab on 9 Dec 2014, 02:39 pm
trivial to solder speakons on one end and spades on the other of some wire....
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: zapper7 on 9 Dec 2014, 02:42 pm
Guitar Center, not sure about quality, that will be the hardest to match and any of our "higher end" cables I am sure we all have,

http://www.guitarcenter.com/Monster-Legacy-S-100-Speaker-Cable-Speakon-Banana-331644-i1128554.gc
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: ernest787 on 9 Dec 2014, 02:44 pm
yeah I got my speakon to banana from guitar center.  they only had them in 50 ft lenghts though, so i have a ton of extra cable.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: zapper7 on 9 Dec 2014, 02:46 pm
Ebay has a bunch, but again quality...

http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_odkw=speakon&_from=R40&_osacat=0&_from=R40&_trksid=p2045573.m570.l1313.TR0.TRC0.H0.Xspeakon+to+banana&_nkw=speakon+to+banana&_sacat=0
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: zapper7 on 9 Dec 2014, 02:47 pm
Ebay seems to have sizes down to 6-10', so better in that respect.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: DaveC113 on 9 Dec 2014, 03:45 pm
Speakons are convenient but won't be as good as the gold-plated nearly pure copper Pomona posts that take about 10 minutes to install with no soldering involved. You also don't have to alter your speaker cables or buy new ones. I doubt the Speakons are much better than the stock binding posts, they are made to be robust and easy to use, not to have the best possible sound quality.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: jk@home on 9 Dec 2014, 04:09 pm
There was some hiss when bridged at max gain. I didn't notice any hiss when not bridged,  with the RCA inputs. Like with your awesome LS50s the hiss was audible at about 1 ft but not at listening position. With  gain  at 3pm, no hiss.

Thanks. I have since then upgraded to an active pre with RCA/XLRs and lots of gain, so could probably run the Crown level controls even lower.

Anyone know where to get speaker cables that have Speakon on one end and bananas or spades on the other?

The speakons are real easy to install. just screw termination. Pick any cable you have or want, as long as the wire gauge will fit. I picked up some of these to try with my Crown but never got around to it.

http://www.neutrik.com/en/speakon/fc-series/nl4fc (http://www.neutrik.com/en/speakon/fc-series/nl4fc)

If I had my way, I would replace the binding posts with Cardas Patented posts, love those things (using spades).
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: roscoeiii on 10 Dec 2014, 02:07 am
Well, well well. Guess what just showed up? Some Wyred4Sound monoblocks. Let's compare them to the XLS in monoblock mode shall we?

Stay tuned...
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Tomy2Tone on 10 Dec 2014, 02:18 am
Well, well well. Guess what just showed up? Some Wyred4Sound monoblocks. Let's compare them to the XLS in monoblock mode shall we?

Stay tuned...

Say what????  :D

That sure was fast! They should definitely be a little smoother on the high end and maybe a little bit better sound stage. But like you've said before, it's all about synergy with your system.

Enjoy!
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: roscoeiii on 10 Dec 2014, 02:27 am
Say what????  :D

That sure was fast! They should definitely be a little smoother on the high end and maybe a little bit better sound stage. But like you've said before, it's all about synergy with your system.

Enjoy!

Lightning fast! And Tomy2Tone thank you once again for your fabulous generosity.

Wyred 4 Sounds are warmiing up.

And it is a Wyred kind of day. Just got a great deal on their Remedy Reclocker. Though that will be a topic for a different thread.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Russell Dawkins on 10 Dec 2014, 02:38 am
Change to the Audience Power Chord gave some improvements including to the treble.  Things felt a bit more fleshed out,  fuller with the Audience.

Then it was time to go monoblocks! And whaddya know. Improvements! In the impact of the bass in particular. As those of you who are familiar with SP Tech speakers know,  they are known to benefit from gobs of power. And yep. Bass was fuller with greater detail and impact.

As for the rest of the frequency range,  monos give a greater sense of ease.

So, since this was before your discovery that you were not in bridge mode when you heard this, it sounds like the power supply must be a little under-spec'd, since the difference you heard could only stem from the power supply being relieved of the duty of supplying two channels and being fully available for the one channel you were using. Which implies there might be an advantage to upping the power supply's capability - through more capacitance, perhaps?
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: roscoeiii on 10 Dec 2014, 02:51 am
So, since this was before your discovery that you were not in bridge mode when you heard this, it sounds like the power supply must be a little under-spec'd, since the difference you heard could only stem from the power supply being relieved of the duty of supplying two channels and being fully available for the one channel you were using. Which implies there might be an advantage to upping the power supply's capability - through more capacitance, perhaps?

That's probably a good guess, especially in light of the cost. But I am far from a technical expert on advantages of mono blocks vs. stereo amps at the same power level. Will let others chime in with thoughts.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Folsom on 10 Dec 2014, 02:51 am
No...

There isn't room.

Also the amp suffers from some things a nice power cord may mildly assist with.

My mods help with just these very concerns, well, I'll let Ozz Tom tell you their worth since he's got decent report with these units. I hope what I did can't be easily compared to a power cord...
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: roscoeiii on 10 Dec 2014, 03:53 am
Well, Wyred vs XLS. Round 1 (and this is with the Wyred only being plugged in for a couple hours, after being cold to the touch from shipping):

Wyred felt restrained in comparison to the XLS. Didn't notice a lot of difference in the treble, though the Wyred was not quite as forward. But the level of detail and impact wasn't there to the same degree as with the XLS. More thwack of the bass drum or tympani with the XLS.

I will need to do some more comparisons and also try the Wyred out of the wall instead of via my Equitech 2Q power conditioner, since that may be part of the issue for the Wyred.

But in Round 1, XLS felt more immediate and alive than the Wyred.

As to why? Well, we could be faced with further evidence that these SP Techs love POWER. It is mentioned again and again in those SP Tech threads. And so some of what I am hearing may reflect the greater power of the XLS in bridged mono. I mean, shucks, these things have what, 3 times the power of the Wyred?

However, we should not forget that these were not ideal conditions for the Wyred. Less warm-up, and via a power conditioner. I'll keep both amps on for the next 24 hours, and see how that and the Wyred straight into the wall affects things.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: roscoeiii on 11 Dec 2014, 12:55 am
And the fun never stops over here. What had arrived when I got home from work? 2 shiny new XLS2000! Couldn't resist those Amazon deals. Got one at the 17% off and the 15% off counted as a different deal. So I could get around the 1 per customer limit.

So the tour amp will move on to Chris. I don't have a lot of time tonight, so I'll be comparing the 1500 monos to the Wyred Monos warmed up and into the wall. Unpacking the 2000s and setting them up will be for tomorrow.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: konut on 11 Dec 2014, 01:56 am
Roscoe, you are providing serious competition to Motor City Dave to see how much equipment you can  move in and out of the system. You're on a tear.  :eyebrows:Curious as to how the Wyreds compare to the various Crowns.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: OzarkTom on 11 Dec 2014, 02:06 am
And the fun never stops over here. What had arrived when I got home from work? 2 shiny new XLS2000! Couldn't resist those Amazon deals. Got one at the 17% off and the 15% off counted as a different deal. So I could get around the 1 per customer limit.

So the tour amp will move on to Chris. I don't have a lot of time tonight, so I'll be comparing the 1500 monos to the Wyred Monos warmed up and into the wall. Unpacking the 2000s and setting them up will be for tomorrow.

Whoa, 2100 wpc bridged into a 4 ohm load! :o

Last I checked there were still 15 of those left on the Amazon deal.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: OzarkTom on 11 Dec 2014, 03:50 am
The 1500 on Amazon is now priced at $364, so for $9 more plus some change, a person is better off getting a 2000. :thumb:

I see a pattern on how the model numbers were named. The 1500 is 1550 wpc bridged into 4 ohms, 2000 is 2100 wpc bridged into a 4 ohm load, 2500 is 2500 wpc bridged into 4 ohms.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Folsom on 11 Dec 2014, 05:03 am
The XLS series can put out high watts in a music fashion, but under too much burden is utterly incapable of keeping up with something like a Bryston 3BSST2. The XLS is rated under 300w consumption, the Bryston is around 1400w. The Bryston loses 400w, but the XLS can't "create" 1200w continuously.

I suggest trying it to see how well it works. The XLS may handle some loads better, however, so it'll still perform well.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: *Scotty* on 11 Dec 2014, 05:49 am
Here is some information on the XLS series continuous current demands from the AC line under different load conditions 8,4 and 2ohms.
Depending on the load and AC line voltage the XLS 2000, for example, can pull as much as 14.2 amps at 120volts AC with a 2 ohm under extreme clipping conditions, the percent THD is not specified for this condition.
http://www.crownaudio.com/media/wysiwyg//XLS/XLSDrivecore_powerdraw_thermal_keh.pdf
The bottom line is that even the XLS 1000 can pull a damn sight more than 300 watts out of the wall driving a 2ohm load.
 The amps appear to be better than 85% efficient. The XLS 2000 under the above specified operating conditions only dissipates 227watts as heat, the rest of the power goes into the load. 1477 total watts to be precise. Better than 86% efficiency.
Scotty   
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: dlaloum on 11 Dec 2014, 06:04 am
Anyone want to try using it as an arc welder?
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Folsom on 11 Dec 2014, 07:21 am
I'll let you run it at that kind of load. They say their wattage where the IEC goes in, which is for continuous.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: roscoeiii on 11 Dec 2014, 04:06 pm
I'm not clear on where folks are getting the amount of power consumption these XLS amps are drawing. Salis, where did you get that 300w figure for the XLS. And which model is that?

One reason I ask is that I had been planning to keep them plugged into my Equitech 2Q balanced power conditioner. But are the bridged monos going to be too demanding in their power requirements for the 2Q? The load capacity (from its big ole toroid) is 2 kVA. Any other specs on the 2Q or XLS I need to be looking into?

Not that I think I will get close to using the XLS 2000 at full power...
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: *Scotty* on 11 Dec 2014, 04:47 pm
http://www.crownaudio.com/media/wysiwyg//XLS/XLSDrivecore_powerdraw_thermal_keh.pdf
Scotty
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Folsom on 11 Dec 2014, 04:57 pm
The PFC section in the XLS has reservoir capacitors that allow it to run higher peak wattage.

The wattage that ranges in 200w area is on the back of the amp itself, printed next to IEC socket.

Maybe I'm wrong but I'd call the heatsink insufficient for continuous 200+ watt burning.

This isn't that important unless you like to run bass sine waves through your system, or the XLS would be on the cusp of enough power. I'd practice wanting some headroom with it.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: roscoeiii on 11 Dec 2014, 04:58 pm
http://www.crownaudio.com/media/wysiwyg//XLS/XLSDrivecore_powerdraw_thermal_keh.pdf
Scotty

OK, but I am not sure how to interpret that document. Wattage given is just the power dissipated as heat, and the only other info that isn't related to power dissipated as heat is given in amps.

So I'm looking at 9.13 amps at 1/3 peak power with pink noise into 4 ohms. When run as a stereo amp. How is that info useful to me? Or how can it be made useful.

Unfortunately, bridged mono data isn't given.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: roscoeiii on 11 Dec 2014, 04:59 pm
The PFC section in the XLS has reservoir capacitors that allow it to run higher peak wattage.

The wattage that ranges in 200w area is on the back of the amp itself, printed next to IEC socket.

Maybe I'm wrong but I'd call the heatsink insufficient for continuous 200+ watt burning.

This isn't that important unless you like to run bass sine waves through your system, or the XLS would be on the cusp of enough power. I'd practice wanting some headroom with it.

But bass sine waves are all that I want to listen to!!!  :thumb:
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: a.wayne on 11 Dec 2014, 05:13 pm
All about that Bass, that bass, no treble ......  :lol:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lc9MzCcmNCU
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: a.wayne on 11 Dec 2014, 05:20 pm
OK, but I am not sure how to interpret that document. Wattage given is just the power dissipated as heat, and the only other info that isn't related to power dissipated as heat is given in amps.

So I'm looking at 9.13 amps at 1/3 peak power with pink noise into 4 ohms. When run as a stereo amp. How is that info useful to me? Or how can it be made useful.

Unfortunately, bridged mono data isn't given.


What i'm seeing here http://www.parts-express.com/crown-xti-1002-xti-2-series-power-amplifier--245-405

look at rear pic , Wall draw is 1K plus ..........................   :scratch:


Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: JohanH on 11 Dec 2014, 05:26 pm

So I'm looking at 9.13 amps at 1/3 peak power with pink noise into 4 ohms. When run as a stereo amp. How is that info useful to me?

I don't know
Maybe multiply with voltage and calculate amount of watts it consumes?
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: *Scotty* on 11 Dec 2014, 06:08 pm
Subtract the power wasted as heat from the amperage draw for specific load times the AC line voltage. From ohms law, Amps x volts = Total watts.
In the case I mentioned the wall voltage was 120volts, the amperage draw at 2ohms was 14.2 amps. Therefore 120v.X 14.2 = 1704 watts. Then the power dissipated as heat, 227 watts is subtracted from the total power 1704 watts, which yields the net power delivered to the load. The pink noise test signal represents a continuous power output condition rather than instantaneous peak power delivered. This would be an RMS power delivery situation under severe clipping into the load. The clipping could be equal to THD of 10%, which is ridiculous but seems to be a commonly used specification, even if worthless.
 I suspect that if clipping was specified as equal to 1% the continuous power output would be considerably lower. The 1/8 Power Pink Noise test may reflect something like a 1% clipping condition but who knows. The amperage draw from the wall in this situation into 2ohms is less than half that of the severe clipping condition. These may not exactly be the power houses that they are billed to be.
Scotty
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: DaveC113 on 11 Dec 2014, 06:17 pm
I'm pretty sure the power ratings are given at .5% THD according to Crown's specs... and I believe I saw that Harmon guarantees the power output to meet spec, it's just a question of exactly how the testing is conducted.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: rodge827 on 11 Dec 2014, 06:20 pm
it's just a question of exactly how the testing is conducted.

Do you mean there is ambiguity in audio measurements?  :o

Never!  :green:
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Russell Dawkins on 11 Dec 2014, 06:28 pm
OK, but I am not sure how to interpret that document. Wattage given is just the power dissipated as heat, and the only other info that isn't related to power dissipated as heat is given in amps.
So I'm looking at 9.13 amps at 1/3 peak power with pink noise into 4 ohms. When run as a stereo amp. How is that info useful to me? Or how can it be made useful.
Unfortunately, bridged mono data isn't given.
It's about current draw and heat dissipation - needed to determine circuit breaker and ventilation requirements. The 1/3 power rating is to show conditions at maximum possible draw - not a condition you would ever operate intentionally under ("heavy clipping") but it is possible to draw that much. The absolute maximum draw in normal operation would be the rating just above that: 1/8th power ("just at clip"). Since we're talking average program material, with 1/8th power we would be hitting clip on peaks, typically, so we're peaking at 650 w, averaging 81 watts (that's a screaming average power!) and at the same time drawing 4.32 peak amps from the wall. That's 518 watts draw, peak. Under typical listening conditions in the home, you wouldn't be drawing as much as 5 average watts, even playing loud, into the typical speaker. The useful figure is the 0.7 amps it draws when awake but at idle. That's 84 watts with 31 watts dissipated as heat. That's what you will be drawing at any sane listening level (up to 13 watts, RMS or average).

What i'm seeing here http://www.parts-express.com/crown-xti-1002-xti-2-series-power-amplifier--245-405
look at rear pic , Wall draw is 1K plus ..........................   :scratch:

Again, that's in heavy clipping - you would never intentionally go or stay there. It's to know the maximum possible draw from the wall, so you won't blow a critical (like the one feeding the lights at the bar) circuit breaker if you do something stupid, like short the outputs with a 4 gauge jumper cable.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: roscoeiii on 11 Dec 2014, 06:48 pm
Many thanks for all the clarification folks!
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Russell Dawkins on 11 Dec 2014, 06:56 pm
"....These may not exactly be the power houses that they are billed to be.
Scotty
Yet, according to reviews by working sound pros, they are.
How about this review comment from a PA "engineer,designer, fabricator and installer":
"This amp is now powering a Triple 18 sub on one side and 4 satellites on the other at 2 ohms and can ROCK a small club to pieces! The clarity is stunning and the power is endless."
I've seen many similar comments in the pro audio forums
Sounds pretty power house-like to me, especially considering domestic acoustic power needs!
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: jimdgoulding on 11 Dec 2014, 07:11 pm
For those of you who don't know, Russell Dawkins is a recording engineer par excellence.  That's coming from a listener par excellence.  This is a fine example of a live concert- music from 4 players/composers- with terrific playing with intimacy and transparency to the stage and hall:

(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=86699)

Think you should see for yourself and the music is plenty special.  PM the man.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: roscoeiii on 11 Dec 2014, 07:18 pm
Yet, according to reviews by working sound pros, they are.
How about this review comment from a PA "engineer,designer, fabricator and installer":
"This amp is now powering a Triple 18 sub on one side and 4 satellites on the other at 2 ohms and can ROCK a small club to pieces! The clarity is stunning and the power is endless."
I've seen many similar comments in the pro audio forums
Sounds pretty power house-like to me, especially considering domestic acoustic power needs!

Yes, these are designed for power needs well beyond home audio system demands.

And in light of the draw they'd have in a home system and their prodigious power output capabilities, does it make sense from a gear protection POV to activate the protection circuitry. IIRC they are said to sound best without it turned on. But I'd also like to make sure my drivers have a long, long life...
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Russell Dawkins on 11 Dec 2014, 07:38 pm
I would think that, again, in terms of typical - even loud - domestic use, it wouldn't make any difference in terms of speaker protection. All the limiter is doing is preventing the amp from going into heavy clipping and sending those nasties down the line. I think heavy clipping on this amp would occur at a power point well beyond that at which the typical 2" voice coil on a typical 8-10"woofer had become incandescent. In other words, even with the limiter engaged you would fry your speakers before the amp broke a sweat.
I remember Bob Smith (of SPTech/Aether) saying that his speakers' woofer was so clean the voice coil would fry before you heard any signs of distress. Many speakers will signal their distress before damage is done, but these days, with ultra long excursion woofers being quite common and their design preventing voice coil bottoming as an early warning sound, many speakers will fry before they cry.

So...caution is called for. Don't plug/unplug interconnects nor drop the needle in the groove at max gain!

Thanks for the mention, Jim.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: roscoeiii on 11 Dec 2014, 07:44 pm
Many thanks Russell!
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: *Scotty* on 11 Dec 2014, 07:52 pm
If you need to protect your loudspeakers from excess power, an appropriately sized inline fuse would be easy to implement.
Scotty
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: roscoeiii on 11 Dec 2014, 10:22 pm
Oh man, just put on some James Blake to give the set-up a solid bass test.  :o :o :o :o Now that is some impact and bass  :thumb: :thumb:
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Folsom on 11 Dec 2014, 10:40 pm
The PFC section, if I remember the exact size, has big enough caps to essentially play the amp at full RMS volume for at least a second if not several. As long as your bass beats aren't too fast, you'll be thrilling the young and killing the old at the club.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: maplegrovemusic on 11 Dec 2014, 11:17 pm
I own two XLS 2500 running bridged . My landlord is a total utility cost freak . He brought down his watt meter to test my amps . At idle not playing music they drew 71 watts from the wall . Music at around 90db they rose to 75 watts . Pretty amazing results !
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Russell Dawkins on 11 Dec 2014, 11:30 pm
I own two XLS 2500 running bridged . My landlord is a total utility cost freak . He brought down his watt meter to test my amps . At idle not playing music they drew 71 watts from the wall . Music at around 90db they rose to 75 watts . Pretty amazing results !
Glad to see that's close to what I speculated back in post #610 yesterday. Always nice to have actual measurements.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: roscoeiii on 11 Dec 2014, 11:30 pm
I own two XLS 2500 running bridged . My landlord is a total utility cost freak . He brought down his watt meter to test my amps . At idle not playing music they drew 71 watts from the wall . Music at around 90db they rose to 75 watts . Pretty amazing results !

Now that is some power! What speakers are you driving and what is the rest of your set-up? Do you have the XLS gain at 100%, or dialed down at all? Any tips for the rest of us?
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: maplegrovemusic on 12 Dec 2014, 12:17 am
My speakers are electrostats called KingSound King . Along with a pair of Adam Audio Column MK3 . Use a Grace m903 dac , and a SM Pro  - nanopatch volume controller .All cabling is Mogami .All digital files from mac mini running Audirvana + . My gain is set at 3 o clock. I had tried bi amping with another set of 1500 to no sonic advantages . Also have a pair of hypex nc400 mono blocks , Which amps i prefer changes weekly . Also useing Pangea ac14xl power cords on the amps as well as a furman two outlet power conditioner.

After reading about some here upgrading binding posts , i will be doing that soon . I do not find the treble bright at all . They seem pretty neutrall in my system .
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: roscoeiii on 12 Dec 2014, 12:35 am
Oh you can answer a number of interesting questions.

what are the differences you hear between the XLS and ncore in your system?

Have you tried biamping the 2500 vs.  bridged monos?

Nice to hear from someone with a  different type speaker.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: maplegrovemusic on 12 Dec 2014, 01:54 am
Roscoeiii , The crowns seem slightly more detailed , with more precise imaging . Bass is tighter , . Ncores seem to have more bloom around notes , and have a deeper-wider sound stage .

as far as bi amping . do you mean using channel one for bass and channel two for tweeters ? if so , have not done that.

one note on my speakers . Factory built they have a severe drop in ohms at 1500- 2500 hz. Dropping below 1.5 ohms .Mine have been modded , since modification they do not drop below 4 ohms at any frequencies. So before the mods, bridging was not an option. 

Even as a single stereo amp it drives my speakers really well  , adding a second one for bridged mono brings some advantages , for the extra $500 it was worth it , but i could live with just one and be content .
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: dlaloum on 12 Dec 2014, 01:56 am
My speakers are electrostats called KingSound King . Along with a pair of Adam Audio Column MK3 . Use a Grace m903 dac , and a SM Pro  - nanopatch volume controller .All cabling is Mogami .All digital files from mac mini running Audirvana + . My gain is set at 3 o clock. I had tried bi amping with another set of 1500 to no sonic advantages . Also have a pair of hypex nc400 mono blocks , Which amps i prefer changes weekly . Also useing Pangea ac14xl power cords on the amps as well as a furman two outlet power conditioner.

After reading about some here upgrading binding posts , i will be doing that soon . I do not find the treble bright at all . They seem pretty neutrall in my system .

When I ran ESL's (Quad 57, 63, 989) - I was always careful about max voltage into them as it would cause arcing and the panels would self destruct...

With an amp capable of this much power, and such high voltage, are you not worried running it with stats? Or does the kingsound have some sort of foolproof protection system (the 63 & 989's are supposed to have a protection circuit, but it doesn't kick in quick enough to protect the panels from dynamic peaks!)
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Tomy2Tone on 12 Dec 2014, 02:17 am
Roscoeiii , The crowns seem slightly more detailed , with more precise imaging . Bass is tighter , . Ncores seem to have more bloom around notes , and have a deeper-wider sound stage .

Thanks for your comparisons! Glad roscoeiii asked.

The fact you go back and forth with both amps regularly, would you say you could live either amp if given the choice? Thanks!
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: maplegrovemusic on 12 Dec 2014, 02:29 am
dnlalum , funny you should mention arcing ! With what seems like unlimited power I do have to be careful . I can pretty much drive the speakers to what seems like endless volume without distortion. The speakers do have a special "nano" coating on the panels to help . They also have another safe guard which is hard to explain . I once heard a pop at a volume I do not normally listen to . Luckily I had my hand on the volume controller and backed off immediately. That was one of those instances were I was testing the amps and speakers limits ( which I feel I no longer need to do )

tommy2tone , I definitely can live with either . In fact I had the ncores up for sale last month on agon . At a I do not want to sell price , and I am glad they did not sell .
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: OzarkTom on 12 Dec 2014, 02:41 am
Roscoeiii , The crowns seem slightly more detailed , with more precise imaging .

And this is the reason my buddy Rex and  I are selling our Job amps. Rex already sold his.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: a.wayne on 12 Dec 2014, 03:04 am
It's about current draw and heat dissipation - needed to determine circuit breaker and ventilation requirements. The 1/3 power rating is to show conditions at maximum possible draw - not a condition you would ever operate intentionally under ("heavy clipping") but it is possible to draw that much. The absolute maximum draw in normal operation would be the rating just above that: 1/8th power ("just at clip"). Since we're talking average program material, with 1/8th power we would be hitting clip on peaks, typically, so we're peaking at 650 w, averaging 81 watts (that's a screaming average power!) and at the same time drawing 4.32 peak amps from the wall. That's 518 watts draw, peak. Under typical listening conditions in the home, you wouldn't be drawing as much as 5 average watts, even playing loud, into the typical speaker. The useful figure is the 0.7 amps it draws when awake but at idle. That's 84 watts with 31 watts dissipated as heat. That's what you will be drawing at any sane listening level (up to 13 watts, RMS or average).

Again, that's in heavy clipping - you would never intentionally go or stay there. It's to know the maximum possible draw from the wall, so you won't blow a critical (like the one feeding the lights at the bar) circuit breaker if you do something stupid, like short the outputs with a 4 gauge jumper cable.

 I'm not  sure where you are getting all these assumptions from Russel , are you saying the Crowns  quiescient  draw is .7 amp, that doesnt sound right for a class-d amplifier nor is its RMS power rating, which  is not at clipping but at .5% thd, it would be pulling 1k+ from the wall to produce its rms rated output ...

Regards ..
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: a.wayne on 12 Dec 2014, 03:31 am
I would think that, again, in terms of typical - even loud - domestic use, it wouldn't make any difference in terms of speaker protection. All the limiter is doing is preventing the amp from going into heavy clipping and sending those nasties down the line. I think heavy clipping on this amp would occur at a power point well beyond that at which the typical 2" voice coil on a typical 8-10"woofer had become incandescent. In other words, even with the limiter engaged you would fry your speakers before the amp broke a sweat.
I remember Bob Smith (of SPTech/Aether) saying that his speakers' woofer was so clean the voice coil would fry before you heard any signs of distress. Many speakers will signal their distress before damage is done, but these days, with ultra long excursion woofers being quite common and their design preventing voice coil bottoming as an early warning sound, many speakers will fry before they cry.

So...caution is called for. Don't plug/unplug interconnects nor drop the needle in the groove at max gain!

Thanks for the mention, Jim.

Clipping on dynamic peaks is very possible , even thou it would become unlistenable long before that,  i can also see the limiter affecting sonics, so bypassing is not a bad idea .... Dirty power will burn speakers fast , hash is bash ... :)


Regards ...
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: a.wayne on 12 Dec 2014, 03:36 am
Edit
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: a.wayne on 12 Dec 2014, 03:42 am
dnlalum , funny you should mention arcing ! With what seems like unlimited power I do have to be careful . I can pretty much drive the speakers to what seems like endless volume without distortion. The speakers do have a special "nano" coating on the panels to help . They also have another safe guard which is hard to explain . I once heard a pop at a volume I do not normally listen to . Luckily I had my hand on the volume controller and backed off immediately. That was one of those instances were I was testing the amps and speakers limits ( which I feel I no longer need to do )

tommy2tone , I definitely can live with either . In fact I had the ncores up for sale last month on agon . At a I do not want to sell price , and I am glad they did not sell .

Do you think the crown will drive below 2 ohm , as the stock King sound ESL represents ...?
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Russell Dawkins on 12 Dec 2014, 04:57 am
I'm not  sure where you are getting all these assumptions from Russel , are you saying the Crowns  quiescient  draw is .7 amp, that doesnt sound right for a class-d amplifier nor is its RMS power rating, which  is not at clipping but at .5% thd, it would be pulling 1k+ from the wall to produce its rms rated output ...
Regards ..

.7 amps is the power drawn by the 2000 in what Crown describes as "awake but idle" mode. Unless the amp has a sleep mode (which I searched for but could not find) that is its quiescent mode and the draw surprised me, too. Many amps draw less than that when idle.

I don't think there are many assumptions in what I posted; I was interpreting the information by interpolating the numbers in the chart Scotty linked to. It's worth having a close look at those numbers.

You say the amp would become unlistenable long before clipping on peaks. Why? The best minds (like Anthony Michaelson of Musical Fidelity, I posted his statement here:  http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=38733.40 ) have it that we are listening to amps clipping much more than we realize and, since most amps don't recover well or quickly from clipping incidents, the simplest solution is to have so much power that the amp never clips - either that or design an amp that clips gracefully, like most tube amps. That's what's behind the effortless sound of very high power solid state amps.

Sorry, I don't have time to go further into this at the moment - we are leaving for a cross country flight at the crack of dawn tomorrow and I haven't packed yet.

I got no response the last time I posted that text by Michaelson and I wouldn't be surprised if I get no response this time, but I do suggest reading it for the start to a deeper understanding of what is actually demanded of an amplifier in terms of power. It's also good to be keep in the back of your mind, while determining amplifier needs, that most good recordings have a crest factor (peak to average power ratio) of around 15 dB. I try to allow for 20 dB. Those who have not really thought this through often presume a crest factor of around 3 dB in their calcualtions.

Live and learn.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: maplegrovemusic on 12 Dec 2014, 05:10 am
awayne , I used the 2500 in stereo mode before the mod to the kings . It worked fine . no stress was evident .
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: DaveC113 on 12 Dec 2014, 08:54 pm
I have a 2nd 1500 on the way.  :)

I don't need the power for my Omegas, but it will be interesting to see how it does in mono... and when I get my bass cabs done the built-in crossovers will be fun to play with.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: a.wayne on 12 Dec 2014, 09:10 pm
awayne , I used the 2500 in stereo mode before the mod to the kings . It worked fine . no stress was evident .

Tks .....
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: barrows on 12 Dec 2014, 09:14 pm
Actually, one of the benefits of class D amps over A/AB is that class D amps do not start having distortion rise before clipping, their distortion profile is much flatter, and hence they maintain good sonics until they clip.
Unlike traditional amps, class D amps do not benefit from huge power headroom.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: a.wayne on 12 Dec 2014, 09:25 pm
.7 amps is the power drawn by the 2000 in what Crown describes as "awake but idle" mode. Unless the amp has a sleep mode (which I searched for but could not find) that is its quiescent mode and the draw surprised me, too. Many amps draw less than that when idle.

I don't think there are many assumptions in what I posted; I was interpreting the information by interpolating the numbers in the chart Scotty linked to. It's worth having a close look at those numbers.

You say the amp would become unlistenable long before clipping on peaks. Why? The best minds (like Anthony Michaelson of Musical Fidelity, I posted his statement here:  http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=38733.40 ) have it that we are listening to amps clipping much more than we realize and, since most amps don't recover well or quickly from clipping incidents, the simplest solution is to have so much power that the amp never clips - either that or design an amp that clips gracefully, like most tube amps. That's what's behind the effortless sound of very high power solid state amps.

Sorry, I don't have time to go further into this at the moment - we are leaving for a cross country flight at the crack of dawn tomorrow and I haven't packed yet.

I got no response the last time I posted that text by Michaelson and I wouldn't be surprised if I get no response this time, but I do suggest reading it for the start to a deeper understanding of what is actually demanded of an amplifier in terms of power. It's also good to be keep in the back of your mind, while determining amplifier needs, that most good recordings have a crest factor (peak to average power ratio) of around 15 dB. I try to allow for 20 dB. Those who have not really thought this through often presume a crest factor of around 3 dB in their calcualtions.

Live and learn.


I do agree many undersize their amplfiers and i have never heard a small SS amp sound better than a big one (there's a reason for this )  I will give it a read to see his position and I'm quite familiar with recordings, crest factor, amplifiers operation , speakers, et al , so feel free to throw whatever you wish and I'm not sure who would be using a crest factor of 3dB or why... 

In difference to Michaelson , SS amps do start to get strained sonically way before clipping, soft recovery( soft clipping) amps always sound dead to me and until one examines an amplifier distortion spectra,  you wont appreciate what happens. Tubes on the other hand are tolerable ( most of the time) until clipping, Hence why many state a 100 watt toooby sounds like a 300 watt SS amp , they can listen to the full 100 watts while most SS amps are becoming intolerable as you approach peak power, for SS this magic number in my experience  happens at  33-50% of rms rating with 33% being best.

Hence why many rave when they get a really big SS amp, they are not using anymore power most of the time ,it' just puts them in that 33% window and the music flows...

Regards..



Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: a.wayne on 12 Dec 2014, 09:32 pm
Actually, one of the benefits of class D amps over A/AB is that class D amps do not start having distortion rise before clipping, their distortion profile is much flatter, and hence they maintain good sonics until they clip.
Unlike traditional amps, class D amps do not benefit from huge power headroom.

Belcanto


(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=110304)


Distortion knee is pretty close to clipping  ....
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: RDavidson on 12 Dec 2014, 09:48 pm
Yup. I totally agree with the concept of running any amp in what I call its "sweet spot." I don't agree a big amp is always better. Bigger amps are also more complex. More complexity can introduce more issues. Regardless of that argument, how much amp one needs depends ENTIRELY on speakers, room, listening distance, and listening volumes......hence the huge variety available to us to try out and find what works best for us on an individual basis. :thumb:
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: a.wayne on 12 Dec 2014, 10:17 pm
At this rate , Roscoe will end up with every amp known to man.....  :lol:
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: OzarkTom on 12 Dec 2014, 11:02 pm
Did anyone notice Roscoe say that he was shipping the cryo amp to me? The Salis Audio 1500 showed up today. :D
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Tomy2Tone on 12 Dec 2014, 11:19 pm
Did anyone notice Roscoe say that he was shipping the cryo amp to me? The Salis Audio 1500 showed up today. :D

I thought he was shipping it to Chris?  :lol:

I just remember him saying the tour amp was off to Chris, I think he's still enjoying the cryo amp.

Just so we know what you have, you got one Salis modded 1500, one cryo 1500, and one or two stock 2500's?

Curious to see what you think what Salis was able to do to improve it.  :D
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: a.wayne on 12 Dec 2014, 11:22 pm
Easy guys, it's easy for Roscoe to get mixed up switching in switching out , who gets what ...  :scratch:  :rotflmao:
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Tomy2Tone on 12 Dec 2014, 11:32 pm
Ok you guys can call me crazy or a liar, I don't care. I added a few Hammond 193m chokes to my listening room and the performance level of the crown amps as well as the rest of my system has improved quite a bit.

It's almost like adding another conditioner or two without losing any dynamics or detail, in fact detail has improved with a better and more crisp soundstage and separation of instruments. May be in part due to the noise floor also decreasing as a result of the chokes. I don't know but I like it!

Very worth while endeavor for little money to get these results. Only thing left would be to try the cryo treatment on the crowns and I think I could have some great sounding amps that could keep me happy for a while, at least until that itch to try something different that comes along.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: OzarkTom on 12 Dec 2014, 11:35 pm

Just so we know what you have, you got one Salis modded 1500, one cryo 1500, and one or two stock 2500's?

Curious to see what you think what Salis was able to do to improve it.  :D

0k,I confess, I am a glutton. I have 3-2500's, stock 1500, cryo 1500, and Salis Audio 1500.

For $1050 for all six amps, how could I go wrong? :green:
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Tomy2Tone on 12 Dec 2014, 11:39 pm
0k,I confess, I am a glutton. I have 3-2500's, stock 1500, cryo 1500, and Salis Audio 1500.

For $1050 for all six amps, how could I go wrong? :green:

Holy smokes! What's the watts per dollar on all those I wonder?  :D
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: OzarkTom on 12 Dec 2014, 11:44 pm
I just checked the Amazon deal, there is only one 2000 left at the 15% off.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: OzarkTom on 12 Dec 2014, 11:46 pm
Holy smokes! What's the watts per dollar on all those I wonder?  :D

What is funny, according to the chart that Russell Dawkins posted, I only need 25 wpc.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Tomy2Tone on 12 Dec 2014, 11:53 pm
I just checked the Amazon deal, there is only one 2000 left at the 15% off.

So you're saying you're leaving us one?  :lol:
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: a.wayne on 12 Dec 2014, 11:57 pm
Ok you guys can call me crazy or a liar, I don't care. I added a few Hammond 193m chokes to my listening room and the performance level of the crown amps as well as the rest of my system has improved quite a bit.

It's almost like adding another conditioner or two without losing any dynamics or detail, in fact detail has improved with a better a more crisp soundstage and separation of instruments. May be in part due to the noise floor also decreasing as a result of the chokes. I don't know but I like it!

Very worth while endeavor for little money to get these results. Only thing left would be to try the cryo treatment on the crowns and I think I could have some great sounding amps that could keep me happy for a while, at least until that itch to try something different that comes along.

Huh, added to your listening  room ..? what do you mean ..........?  :scratch:
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: wushuliu on 13 Dec 2014, 12:06 am
Ok you guys can call me crazy or a liar, I don't care. I added a few Hammond 193m chokes to my listening room and the performance level of the crown amps as well as the rest of my system has improved quite a bit.

The 193M and L are some of the best tweaks for the money. I just mentioned them in the A/V circle regarding my projector setup. Too bad the chokes have doubled in price over the past few years. There is a sale on the M at Parts Express right now though.

This is one of those tweaks that peaked interest for a while then faded so very few know about it nowadays. They're worth it for TV/video if nothing else because the results occur in minutes and you can't miss it.

I've written posts a few times in the past on the 193L and M's big influence on the CDA amps. It's not even remotely subtle.

Despite being very easy to rig, it does involve dealing mains voltages though which is probably why it hasn't taken off more.

And no it's not magic. There are plenty of old threads here and audio asylum on how they work.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Tomy2Tone on 13 Dec 2014, 12:08 am
Huh, added to your listening  room ..? what do you mean ..........?  :scratch:

I have 3 of these 193m's in three outlets in my room. My sound system is plugged into the middle outlet of the 3 along with one 193m choke.

(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=110314)

(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=110315)

The level of detail has increased so much that the crowns almost sound like a different but better amp. Everything just cleaned up around all the instruments and voices and sound as if coming from a blacker background. Don't ask me why, it just works and sounds better.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: wushuliu on 13 Dec 2014, 12:10 am
The level of detail has increased so much that the crowns almost sound like a different but better amp. Everything just cleaned up around all the instruments and voices and sound as if coming from a blacker background. Don't ask me why, it just works and sounds better.

That's what happened with my CDA amp. You can't not notice it. Big thumps up.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Tomy2Tone on 13 Dec 2014, 12:12 am
The 193M and L are some of the best tweaks for the money. I just mentioned them in the A/V circle regarding my projector setup. Too bad the chokes have doubled in price over the past few years. There is a sale on the M at Parts Express right now though.

This is one of those tweaks that peaked interest for a while then faded so very few know about it. They're worth it for TV/video if nothing else because the results occur in minutes and you can't miss it.

YES! You're the one I wanted to thank for bringing that thread back up or reviving the choke tweak. I have two 193L's into the mix as well. Just realized the pic I posted is the L and not the M but they look the same.

It really is amazing to hear the difference! And yes my Plasma tv has never looked better as well!!

Thank you wushuliu!
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: OzarkTom on 13 Dec 2014, 12:17 am
Is that power cord special that you have hooked up to the choke?

Hmm, maybe I should get one of those cryo'd. :D
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Tomy2Tone on 13 Dec 2014, 12:20 am
Is that power cord special that you have hooked up to the choke?

Hmm, maybe I should get one of those cryo'd. :D

Nope, not special. It's actually the cheap power cord that came with the crown amp.  :thumb:

I remember reading some of those old threads wushuliu was referring to and people said if you have bad or noisy AC like you've reported you will probably benefit even more.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: jmdesignz2 on 13 Dec 2014, 12:22 am
Anyone know the ee reasons why this works?
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: dlaloum on 13 Dec 2014, 12:28 am
Isn't that the same as using the old style of transformer based power conditioner?
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: wushuliu on 13 Dec 2014, 12:33 am
Anyone know the ee reasons why this works?

It's based on the Richards Gray Power Conditioners from 10 years ago. Someone opened one up and voila found chokes with similar values. In fact this was discovered/discussed first right here on AC, some 10 years ago. If you the 'ee' reasons I suggest googling the audio asylum forum, you'll find a good 7 years or so of discussion. The post by Jon Risch and Al Sekela in particular discuss the how and whys. In a nutshell the chokes are power conditioners. And they do a hell of a job...
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Tomy2Tone on 13 Dec 2014, 12:33 am
Isn't that the same as using the old style of transformer based power conditioner?

From what I read about it , yes. Don't know who the guy was but supposedly this tweak started when he bought a $1000 conditioner and decided to open it up and realized all it had was these chokes.

Once he got the word out guys were buying these or something similar to these Hammonds and were having remarkable results.

Edit..Yeah, what wushuliu just said.  :thumb:
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: maplegrovemusic on 13 Dec 2014, 12:45 am
Need to adjust numbers on thread posted earlier . At the time my landlord did the watt test i had a crown xls 1500 and 2500  running . So the 71 watts at idle and 75 playing music was for the two amps in bridged mode.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: OzarkTom on 13 Dec 2014, 01:43 am
Oops, sorry, I just bought the last 193m in stock at Parts Express. :D
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: DaveC113 on 13 Dec 2014, 01:50 am
Ha, I got the one before you Tom.  :green:

Should be interesting to see if it offers any improvement in addition to the SurgeX's conditioning... if so I may add it to the SurgeX, but it would have to be top mounted as it won't fit inside.

Actually, it still says 1 left in stock, maybe they are fudging to create a sense of urgency...  :icon_lol:
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Tomy2Tone on 13 Dec 2014, 01:53 am
Oops, sorry, I just bought the last 193m in stock at Parts Express. :D

Nice!

Each choke I added I could tell a difference, but it wasn't until I put in the third 193m that it really went to another level of performance. It's a fun tweak to play around with depending on which outlet you place it in. And like everything else in this hobby, it could be system dependent as far as results go.

If you've had harshness before this could help elviate if not eliminate it.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: roscoeiii on 13 Dec 2014, 02:06 am
At this rate , Roscoe will end up with every amp known to man.....  :lol:

Yes,  that is my plan.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: roscoeiii on 13 Dec 2014, 02:09 am
Can someone point me to a good link or thread about these chokes?
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: roscoeiii on 13 Dec 2014, 02:11 am
Jack comes  by with the ncore tomorrow. Then the tour amp goes to Chris and the cryo goes to OzarkTom. Lots of fun listening ahead and then I will make a final amp decision (well,  final for now).
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: wushuliu on 13 Dec 2014, 02:35 am
Can someone point me to a good link or thread about these chokes?

All I can suggest is doing a search here on AC and google search audioasylum. Most of the posts are at audioasylum and their forum can be messy to weed through.

EDIT: Here is a post I made a few years ago if you scroll down I explain how to make one and there are some links to further info.

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=81223.0
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Odal3 on 13 Dec 2014, 03:11 am
...and my arc welder (aka xls 2000) arrived today. Looking forward to some testing this weekend.

BTW: since we are on pro-audio equipment, what would be a good pre-amp and/or mixer that would work with RCA inputs that would match the value /price ratio the Crown xls has?

Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Folsom on 13 Dec 2014, 04:20 am
If you run the amp in monoblock and expect to use more than 200w or think you're being demanding w/speakers in stereo, I'd consider a larger choke than the 193L/M. But I wouldn't use one personally to start.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: wushuliu on 13 Dec 2014, 04:50 am
If you run the amp in monoblock and expect to use more than 200w or think you're being demanding w/speakers in stereo, I'd consider a larger choke than the 193L/M. But I wouldn't use one personally to start.

Do you have any experience with using the 193L or M?
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Folsom on 13 Dec 2014, 06:16 am
Do you have any experience with using the 193L or M?

They're rated at 3A, and their resistance is through the roof. Without the right device and some thought into coupling you'll get a much more moderate upgrade than possible.

The XLS is designed such I doubt it matters as much. But running at or above a chokes rating will slowly melt the coils together.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: barrows on 13 Dec 2014, 02:40 pm
Salis, these guys are talking about running this choke in parallel to the AC line as a sort of "power conditioner" (yes, I know it is odd) not in series as a DC choke (the part's intended purpose of course).
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: rollo on 13 Dec 2014, 03:11 pm
Nice!

Each choke I added I could tell a difference, but it wasn't until I put in the third 193m that it really went to another level of performance. It's a fun tweak to play around with depending on which outlet you place it in. And like everything else in this hobby, it could be system dependent as far as results go.

If you've had harshness before this could help elviate if not eliminate it.

   Chokes will soften the sound. Is the Crown harsh , lean and or bright ? It appears the chokes are acting like tone controls. Is the Crown power supply choke regulated to begin with ? If not try an NOS oil choke and be very happy.


charles
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: wushuliu on 13 Dec 2014, 03:22 pm
Salis, these guys are talking about running this choke in parallel to the AC line as a sort of "power conditioner" (yes, I know it is odd) not in series as a DC choke (the part's intended purpose of course).

Remember this goes to back to the Richard Gray Power Conditioners. This didn't come out of thin air. I think it was AC's own Morrow Audio in fact that did the original article that sparked the tweak discussion here in 2004. However Richard Gray had them pull the page down. I just don't feel like spending time to go through all the audio asylum posts again to collate the relevant parts and cut and paste just to play proxy defense against armchair analysis. There are 7 years worth of positive feedback on the chokes there, here, and on other forums as well. They work. And the results are evident in less than 30 minutes.

Of course one could also buy a RGPC on ebay. They seem to run about $250-2000 depending.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: wushuliu on 13 Dec 2014, 03:23 pm
   Chokes will soften the sound. Is the Crown harsh , lean and or bright ? It appears the chokes are acting like tone controls. Is the Crown power supply choke regulated to begin with ? If not try an NOS oil choke and be very happy.
charles

The chokes are not tone controls. IME and others they behave as conditioners - they lower the noise floor, greatly reduce digititis, bring out more detail, increase dimensionality. For video the blacks are deeper, colors are richer and more lifelike, etc. Again all quite noticeable in under 30 minutes.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: rodge827 on 13 Dec 2014, 03:28 pm
I have 3 of these 193m's in three outlets in my room. My sound system is plugged into the middle outlet of the 3 along with one 193m choke.

(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=110314)

(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=110315)

The level of detail has increased so much that the crowns almost sound like a different but better amp. Everything just cleaned up around all the instruments and voices and sound as if coming from a blacker background. Don't ask me why, it just works and sounds better.

Is this the proper way to implement a choke?
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: wushuliu on 13 Dec 2014, 03:42 pm
Is this the proper way to implement a choke?

Yes that looks about right. It's a nice job actually, and no soldering needed. The choke has two thin wires. Attach one wire to hot end of whatever power plug solution you choose, then the other wire to the neutral. It does not matter which wire goes where. Plug into wall. Done. Try not to make the cord too long. Just a couple feet. Maybe heatshrink or electrical tape wrap the thin wires, etc. We are talking AC voltage here so use common sense and take precautions against pets, kids, etc.

HTCoz put his in an enclosure with an iec plug (so like any conditioner) which is another good idea.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Tomy2Tone on 13 Dec 2014, 03:45 pm
Wushuliu describes the chokes perfectly. Somehow they seem to clean up any digititis or grunge that could be present in listening to your music.

I almost equate it to going from a standard definition tv to an hdtv. When all you had was a sdtv you didn't know any better and thought what you saw was great. Then you see an hdtv and realize there was a lot of crap in the way on your sdtv. But like I said, each system could be different with different results and with how many chokes you could benefit from.

rodge827-

That's the way the older threads were showing how to connect the choke. I just mimicked what they were doing and it seems to work. It's very easy to try and see if you could benefit or not. It took 3 of the 193m chokes to really increase the level of performance I'm getting now. I do have 2 of the 193L chokes as well being used. From what I read it was recommended to put the 193m's at the outlet in the wall and the 193L's at your distibution boxes like surge protectors or conditioners.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: rodge827 on 13 Dec 2014, 04:12 pm
Thanks guys for the info.  :thumb:
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Tomy2Tone on 13 Dec 2014, 04:25 pm
Thanks guys for the info.  :thumb:

Not sure if you noticed, but under the choke is a set of cedar rings which I'm sure is the real reason these chokes work so well.  :D

I just noticed the quote under your avatar! I think by the time you actually get to hear the tour amp you'll be considered for sainthood for your patience.  :lol:
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Folsom on 13 Dec 2014, 05:05 pm
Parallel? Ohhh... Heh. Have fun.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: a.wayne on 13 Dec 2014, 05:33 pm
So you are plugging straight into your wall receptacle and thats it , improvement ....?
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: wushuliu on 13 Dec 2014, 05:34 pm
Thanks guys for the info.  :thumb:

You're welcome! Thanks to Tomy for the feedback.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: wushuliu on 13 Dec 2014, 05:38 pm
So you are plugging straight into your wall receptacle and thats it , improvement ....?

Yep. There are other things worth trying like using a parallel adapter for a specific component, attaching the ground to the choke chassis, etc. But yes that's the gist. Only takes about 15-30min to kick in.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: roscoeiii on 13 Dec 2014, 06:08 pm
Jackman and I are sitting down with 2 1500s (cryo and normal), Wyred4Sound monoblocks, an ncore and 2 2500s.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: roscoeiii on 13 Dec 2014, 06:24 pm
So I had Jack listen to the 1500s blind to which is which. In under 30 seconds, he said "this one is clearly better" when I hooked up the second 1500. Yup,  that was the cryo one!
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: guest61169 on 13 Dec 2014, 06:48 pm
So I had Jack listen to the 1500s blind to which is which. In under 30 seconds, he said "this one is clearly better" when I hooked up the second 1500. Yup,  that was the cryo one!

I have noticed when unscientifically comparing things that are similar, like cables, amps, DACs, etc. that more often than not the second thing sounds best. 
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: roscoeiii on 13 Dec 2014, 06:53 pm
I have noticed when unscientifically comparing things that are similar, like cables, amps, DACs, etc. that more often than not the second thing sounds best.

Now on to bridged 2000s..


Well,  this one wasn't close. Not a matter of straining to hear differences.

And then we put a 2000 in. Not broken in at all. It has been plugged in for 48 hours,  but those were the  first notes that we'd played out of it. And with my power hungry speakers,  we preferred the 2000 to the cryo'd 1500.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Tomy2Tone on 13 Dec 2014, 07:55 pm
Well,  this one wasn't close. Not a matter of straining to hear differences.

And then we put a 2000 in. Not broken in at all. It has been plugged in for 48 hours,  but those were the  first notes that we'd played out of it. And with my power hungry speakers,  we preferred the 2000 to the cryo'd 1500.

Wow, that's interesting! More wattage made that much of a difference? Hmmmm.... :D

Do you plan to get your 2000's cryoed?
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: roscoeiii on 13 Dec 2014, 08:21 pm
And on to the ncore. Now in Jack's system the ncore was clearly preferred. Not the case with my SP Tech Revelations. Here it was a matter of preference. Different presentations of the music.

 Reminded me of a description Robert Greene made in his comparison of the Well Tempered Amadeus and the Townshend Rock 7. Top down vs bottom up. The ncore and the Amadeus were examples of a top down presentation. Great treble,  extension and air in the high frequencies. Not bad or deficient in the bass. But shone in the treble.

The XLS and Rock were more bottom up. With superb bass foundations that seem to ground the music. Again, not deficient or bad in the treble. But the bass shone. With real bass weight and impact. Now this might not be noticeable on speakers with limited  bass capability.

Both amps are great, with gobs of detail in my setup.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: roscoeiii on 13 Dec 2014, 08:23 pm
Wow, that's interesting! More wattage made that much of a difference? Hmmmm.... :D

Do you plan to get your 2000's cryoed?

Yeah,  that is our guess that the wattage made the difference. But again,  I've never had speakers that have responded so much to additional power.

And yeah,  I do think I'll be making a cryo appointment...
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: rodge827 on 13 Dec 2014, 08:31 pm
Not sure if you noticed, but under the choke is a set of cedar rings which I'm sure is the real reason these chokes work so well.  :D

I just noticed the quote under your avatar! I think by the time you actually get to hear the tour amp you'll be considered for sainthood for your patience.  :lol:

Cedar Rings = Best Smelling Choke in town and moth protected!  8)

Patience? I live in the house of the women and well...  :green:
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: roscoeiii on 13 Dec 2014, 09:30 pm
Jack just left  and should add his thoughts later. Good thing he brought his preamp. Turns out it is quite a bit more forward than my kW preamp and DSPeaker combo. So that is another factor affecting our preferences depending on the associated systems.

That and my speakers' love of gobs and gobs of power.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: a.wayne on 13 Dec 2014, 09:45 pm
So the 2000 is the one preferred ... how was it against mono pr 1500 ..? also would love to hear how XLS compare to XTI AMPLFIERS ...
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Chrisandalex1 on 13 Dec 2014, 10:34 pm
This thread has me seriously intrigued.  For the money, you almost can't go wrong.  Excuse me if I am crazy, but it seems to me that a lot of you guys playing with this have also experienced some seriously high end/high dollar stuff.

I might have to buy a couple of these just to run 2 channel when my wife is out of the house. 

I also think it changes the game, allowing us to spend a lot more on speakers, cables, power conditioning and room acoustics. 

I have been struggling for the last few days with my latest purchase because I just don't think it is going to be enough power.  Now I think I will just keep that for the 5.1 and get a couple of these just for the hell of it.

Dig it.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: roscoeiii on 13 Dec 2014, 10:35 pm
We didn't compare the 2000 vs the 1500 as monos directly. But we liked the cryo'd 1500 better than 1500s as monos. And I could see going either way on 2000 in stereo vs 2 monos. Will be making that comparison more as the 2000s break in. Mono bridged vs stereo did seem to change the character of the sound more. Jack was noticing this more than I did, so I will let him speak to that. I was paying more attention to the bass, where bridged had the advantage.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: jackman on 13 Dec 2014, 10:37 pm
Hi Guys,
Great time at Roscoe's house. His new speakers are very large and cool looking. I have to keep it short because I just got home and have family commitments.  Roscoe pretty much summed it up for me. First of all thanks to Roscoe for the opportunity to hear his system. It's very impressive.

In my system, the Crown amp was powerful but lacked soundstage and was very 2D sounding. It was not apparent until I compared it to the NCore.  The Crown was forward and although it did a lot of things right, it lacked refinement and was a bit fatiguing.  The NCore threw a deep and wide image with gobs of detail and excellent harmonics that were lacking in the XLS. Also the NCore was happiest plugged directly into the wall outlet with no power conditioning.

Roscoe's system required us to plug all amps into a power conditioner and the positioning of the speakers mandated listening with the tweeters above our ears by quite a bit, probably well above our heads. Also, his Musical Fidelity preamp is much more laid back than my SAS. His SP Tech speakers really like a LOT of power and I preferred the Crown 2000, single amp to any of the combinations we tried.  For some reason, the bridged pair seemed to lack air and detail and was a bit dark sounding in comparison.  The crown 1500 amps did not sound as good as the 2000, but I preferred the cryo version to the non cryo by a wide margin. That was a surprise because I thought cryo treatment was snake oil.  My ears told me otherwise.

Roscoe's room is relatively narrow and does not allow for soeakers to be pulled out Into the room. As a result the soundstage is not deep. It sounds very good and we all have different preferences but this is a conversation for another day. On his system, I preferred the crown 2000 because it had excellent balance and really impressive bass. The SP Techs just seemed to lack bass when powered by the NCore

In my system, the Crown is not a viable option but if you have  power hungry or dark sounding gear, the Crown could be a great choice. Those 2000 amps are a clear step up from the 1500's. Makes me wonder how the 2500 would sound on Roscoe's system!  Lastly, no magic wooden picks were used during this evaluation. 
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: a.wayne on 13 Dec 2014, 10:43 pm
We didn't compare the 2000 vs the 1500 as monos directly. But we liked the cryo'd 1500 better than 1500s as monos. And I could see going either way on 2000 in stereo vs 2 monos. Will be making that comparison more as the 2000s break in. Mono bridged vs stereo did seem to change the character of the sound more. Jack was noticing this more than I did, so I will let him speak to that. I was paying more attention to the bass, where bridged had the advantage.

Yeah , OK, pictures of setup B****ch , or it never happened ...........  :green:
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: a.wayne on 13 Dec 2014, 10:46 pm
Hi Guys,
Great time at Roscoe's house. His new speakers are very large and cool looking. I have to keep it short because I just got home and have family commitments.  Roscoe pretty much summed it up for me. First of all thanks to Roscoe for the opportunity to hear his system. It's very impressive.

In my system, the Crown amp was powerful but lacked soundstage and was very 2D sounding. It was not apparent until I compared it to the NCore.  The Crown was forward and although it did a lot of things right, it lacked refinement and was a bit fatiguing.  The NCore threw a deep and wide image with gobs of detail and excellent harmonics that were lacking in the XLS. Also the NCore was happiest plugged directly into the wall outlet with no power conditioning.

Roscoe's system required us to plug all amps into a power conditioner and the positioning of the speakers mandated listening with the tweeters above our ears by quite a bit, probably well above our heads. Also, his Musical Fidelity preamp is much more laid back than my SAS. His SP Tech speakers really like a LOT of power and I preferred the Crown 2000, single amp to any of the combinations we tried.  For some reason, the bridged pair seemed to lack air and detail and was a bit dark sounding in comparison.  The crown 1500 amps did not sound as good as the 2000, but I preferred the cryo version to the non cryo by a wide margin. That was a surprise because I thought cryo treatment was snake oil.  My ears told me otherwise.

Roscoe's room is relatively narrow and does not allow for soeakers to be pulled out Into the room. As a result the soundstage is not deep. It sounds very good and we all have different preferences but this is a conversation for another day. On his system, I preferred the crown 2000 because it had excellent balance and really impressive bass. The SP Techs just seemed to lack bass when powered by the NCore

In my system, the Crown is not a viable option but if you have  power hungry or dark sounding gear, the Crown could be a great choice. Those 2000 amps are a clear step up from the 1500's. Makes me wonder how the 2500 would sound on Roscoe's system!  Lastly, no magic wooden picks were used during this evaluation.


OK, but what did you think of the sound overall , is it hi-end ?
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: jackman on 13 Dec 2014, 11:01 pm

OK, but what did you think of the sound overall , is it hi-end ?

I thought it sounded very good. Nothing sounded strained or bright. The Crown amps work perfectly with his speakers. They seemed to love the power. Also, we messed around with some crazy bass heavy tracks from ILLEGAL BASS CD and it compressed the air in the room nicely. The crown never broke a sweat.  Not a hifi cd but fun nonetheless.  That amp and those speakers could probably break Roscoe's lease or at least get the cops over faster than a bank robbery.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Chrisandalex1 on 13 Dec 2014, 11:08 pm
OK, who is going to hook these up to a pair of VR4 jr's? 

Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: jackman on 13 Dec 2014, 11:11 pm
OK, who is going to hook these up to a pair of VR4 jr's?

Roscoe has a pair of VR's but I'm not sure of the model.  He says they are laid back which might make them a good candidate. Amazon has a greet return policy and shipping is cheap either way. These amps are compact and lightweight.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: a.wayne on 13 Dec 2014, 11:12 pm
I'm leaning towards trying an XTI for sub use .....
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Chrisandalex1 on 13 Dec 2014, 11:17 pm
I am thinking I want to get a 2500 just for 2 channel listening.  For the price it seems like a natural. 

I sure wish they were better looking.  How difficult do you think it would be to machine a new front plate for these?  I think it would make a huge difference. 
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: a.wayne on 13 Dec 2014, 11:19 pm
Use a nice thick one, get amp up to 10Kg....  :lol:
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Tomy2Tone on 13 Dec 2014, 11:26 pm
I am thinking I want to get a 2500 just for 2 channel listening.  For the price it seems like a natural. 

I sure wish they were better looking.  How difficult do you think it would be to machine a new front plate for these?  I think it would make a huge difference.

I thought the same thing. I tried to take the front grill off in an effort to paint it black but had a heck of a time figuring how to detach it from the board without damaging anything. If somebody figures it out please share how. It's not that ugly but painting it a different color could help ease the asthetics.

I'd like to know more how the 2000 sounded different than the 1500. Ozarktom said earlier in the thread that he couldn't hear a difference.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Chrisandalex1 on 13 Dec 2014, 11:36 pm
Yeah, it is just that everything else in my system is black. 

I was just measuring the area I have for it, and also thinking about ease of switching speaker cables when I want to go from 5.1 to 2 channel.  Since my speaker cables each cost more than the amp, I am not wild about buying 2 sets.

Would I be good with putting this amp under of a UD7007 Bluray player?
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Chrisandalex1 on 13 Dec 2014, 11:38 pm
Damn, this would be a royal PITA.  To do this I would need 2 sets of Speaker Cable.  Then I could do the switch at the speaker much easier.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: dlaloum on 14 Dec 2014, 12:38 am
I thought the same thing. I tried to take the front grill off in an effort to paint it black but had a heck of a time figuring how to detach it from the board without damaging anything. If somebody figures it out please share how. It's not that ugly but painting it a different color could help ease the asthetics.

I'd like to know more how the 2000 sounded different than the 1500. Ozarktom said earlier in the thread that he couldn't hear a difference.

I would suggest that the difference is 100% down to raw power.

Other reviews (other sites) have also made the same comment - other than power (current, voltage)  the 1500, 2000 and 2500 sound the same.

If your speakers need more current/voltage then get the bigger beast, if you want to play safe, get the bigger beast, if you want to get best value for money - get the one that suits your speakers needs...
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: roscoeiii on 14 Dec 2014, 01:18 am
I would suggest that the difference is 100% down to raw power.

Other reviews (other sites) have also made the same comment - other than power (current, voltage)  the 1500, 2000 and 2500 sound the same.

If your speakers need more current/voltage then get the bigger beast, if you want to play safe, get the bigger beast, if you want to get best value for money - get the one that suits your speakers needs...

Yes,  I would agree and should point out that my speakers are quite unique in how they respond to extra power. Something about the crossover (24 db/octave slope)? Never heard a speaker respond like this before.

From what Salis reported about the internals,  I'd put the differences down to the speakers' response to power, rather than the amps being voiced differently. I'd not be surprised if others did not hear this difference with other speakers.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: maplegrovemusic on 14 Dec 2014, 01:39 am
If a Guitar Center is close by , that is were I have purchased 6 crowns . They seem to be on sale all the time there . If not you can ask to get the sales price when not on sale . 30 day money back return . Also free shipping if ordered online from them.

I have thought of using some black Duplicolor Automotive paint for the faces myself . Speaying from a small hvlp gun . Adding a nice gloss clear too .Would need to tape off a lot and try to keep the black crown logo still visible somehow .

Can someone provide the cryo info ? How much does that cost ? Sounds like it is worth it ?
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: maplegrovemusic on 14 Dec 2014, 01:45 am
I happened to stumble across a review on a home theater site last year where a guy was driving some Revel Salon's for two channel . He stated the Crown was the best amp he had used on the revels , even after using some real big buck amps . He described them as very neutral .Definitely can spend more on ones speakers with the savings of money . got to like that !
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Folsom on 14 Dec 2014, 01:59 am
The suspense of what OzarkTom thinks about the modified unit is getting to me. It needs a few hours, but still....
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Tomy2Tone on 14 Dec 2014, 02:03 am
I happened to stumble across a review on a home theater site last year where a guy was driving some Revel Salon's for two channel . He stated the Crown was the best amp he had used on the revels , even after using some real big buck amps . He described them as very neutral .Definitely can spend more on ones speakers with the savings of money . got to like that !

Nice!  DaveC113 has mentioned that before, spend most of your money on speakers and source and what's left over spend on the Crowns.  :thumb:

But of course it's trial and error and with these amps availability and return policy of Amazon and Guitar Center it's hard not to at least try.

Don't know if the cryo guy wants to be known here, I'll pm you.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Tomy2Tone on 14 Dec 2014, 02:04 am
The suspense of what OzarkTom thinks about the modified unit is getting to me. It needs a few hours, but still....

+1  :hyper:
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: barrows on 14 Dec 2014, 02:07 am
That seems odd: why would a cryogenic treating service not want to be known?
In any case, all cryo treating is not equal.  I would love to know of folks experiences with different cryo treating services for audio stuff: cables, outlets, components, etc.  I am looking for a good cryo treater myself.  Of course this might be worth its own thread...
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: roscoeiii on 14 Dec 2014, 02:11 am
Definitely can spend more on ones speakers with the savings of money . got to like that !

That's my stance. SPEND ON SPEAKERS. At this point there are so many great DACs and amps at killer prices. And nothing makes a bigger difference than speakers.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Tomy2Tone on 14 Dec 2014, 02:17 am
That seems odd: why would a cryogenic treating service not want to be known?
In any case, all cryo treating is not equal.  I would love to know of folks experiences with different cryo treating services for audio stuff: cables, outlets, components, etc.  I am looking for a good cryo treater myself.  Of course this might be worth its own thread...

I'll let Ozarktom decide if his identity should be known. It's not his primary business, meaning he doesn't advertise specifically " hey send me your stuff I'll cryo it" kind of thing. So I didn't want to be the one to give him more cryo orders than he may care for., I guess. :dunno:
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: OzarkTom on 14 Dec 2014, 03:25 am
I received the Salis Audio 1500 yesterday, but I am so busy at work that I do not have the time to listen to it. It might be after Christmas before I get to it.

About a month or so ago, someone posted a black 1500 on EBay for sale. I never did see how much it sold for, but by the pictures, it looked very professionally done.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: DaveC113 on 14 Dec 2014, 03:33 am
Damn, this would be a royal PITA.  To do this I would need 2 sets of Speaker Cable.  Then I could do the switch at the speaker much easier.

You'll have to switch them somewhere, if you do it at the amp side you will only need one set of speaker cables... I'd position the amps so they aren't too difficult to reach behind.

-----------------

I've owned speakers that seemed to respond more to the amount of power the amp can deliver than anything else, Mirage biploes from the early 90's...  if your speakers have this character than the 2500s would probably be best but I seriously doubt OzarkTom's Zellatons or my Omegas would react the same way.


 C'mon OzarkTom, don't make us wait!    :lol:  :flame::hyper:
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: OzarkTom on 14 Dec 2014, 03:35 am
That's my stance. SPEND ON SPEAKERS. At this point there are so many great DACs and amps at killer prices. And nothing makes a bigger difference than speakers.

Yep, speakers and the room are the most critical. Well, actually the quality of the recording is number one, but none of us here can buy master tapes. That is why I spent my bucks on the Zellatons. These Crown amps matches up perfectly with these ultra linear speakers. The speakers are so neutral, not forward or laid back.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: OzarkTom on 14 Dec 2014, 03:54 am
I found that EBay listing for the black 1500. It looks cool in the pictures.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Harman-Crown-XLS1500-Drivecore-Series-Power-Amp-/331364416632?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2047675.l2557&nma=true&si=tjKWcAMPKmq1Ystb3wjg9npCAEg%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Tomy2Tone on 14 Dec 2014, 04:02 am
I found that EBay listing for the black 1500. It looks cool in the pictures.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Harman-Crown-XLS1500-Drivecore-Series-Power-Amp-/331364416632?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2047675.l2557&nma=true&si=tjKWcAMPKmq1Ystb3wjg9npCAEg%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc

That does look nice! I'm going to have to give it a try after the holidays.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Folsom on 14 Dec 2014, 04:50 am
It's not drivecore.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: sistemizer on 14 Dec 2014, 05:05 am
the Crown is good if your a dj but not for high end critical
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Tomy2Tone on 14 Dec 2014, 05:10 am
It's not drivecore.

Nope, it sure isn't. Just showing as a reference that Crown does make black face plates, unfortunately not for the xls drivecore which is why some are contemplating painting it.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: roscoeiii on 14 Dec 2014, 07:37 am
That can put out 1800 watts in stereo in 4ohm and a measly 5000 watts in bridge mode. Probably still not enough for Roscoe!  :lol:


NEVER ENOUGH  :rock:
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: OzarkTom on 14 Dec 2014, 12:17 pm
NEVER ENOUGH  :rock:

I can see now that if Roscoe ever comes down to visit, I had better have my Infinity subs hooked up also.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: a.wayne on 14 Dec 2014, 12:40 pm
That does look nice! I'm going to have to give it a try after the holidays.

Have you heard of the Crown XLS 5000? It's black and stands higher by comparison. Crown says it can put out 1800 watts in stereo in 4ohm and a measly 5000 watts in bridge mode. Probably still not enough for Roscoe!  :lol:


(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=110394)

www.crownaudio.com/xls-series.html

This new xls series is not rated into 2ohms , well except the 5000, i would stay away from these ..
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: OzarkTom on 14 Dec 2014, 03:16 pm
I found this sweet deal on Craigslist in Norfolk Va. He has two 1500's for $200 each. If you need just one, you could probably sell the other for about $275.

http://norfolk.craigslist.org/msg/4799479670.html
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: roscoeiii on 14 Dec 2014, 03:18 pm
This new xls series is not rated into 2ohms , well except the 5000, i would stay away from these ..

My understanding is that the XLS Drivecore is the new series. There was an earlier XLS from Crown that was non-Drivecore. I think that is what this 5000 is part of.

For the Drivecore, in stereo, they are all rated down to 2 ohms. Only when bridged mono are the Drivecore not going to be able to do 2 ohms.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: ZAKski288 on 14 Dec 2014, 04:13 pm

Don't know if the cryo guy wants to be known here, I'll pm you.
   Hey Tomy2Tone  can you PM me about the cryo guy. Thanks ZAK
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: jk@home on 14 Dec 2014, 04:34 pm
I found this sweet deal on Craigslist in Norfolk Va. He has two 1500's for $200 each. If you need just one, you could probably sell the other for about $275.

http://norfolk.craigslist.org/msg/4799479670.html

That's my neck of the woods...wonder if he will sale just one.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: ebag4 on 14 Dec 2014, 05:08 pm
That's my neck of the woods...wonder if he will sale just one.

I emailed him this morning to ask if he would ship one, haven't heard back yet.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: OzarkTom on 14 Dec 2014, 05:20 pm
That's my neck of the woods...wonder if he will sale just one.

Maybe if you also email him, he could sell you and ebag4 one each. His name and phone number is also listed if you click on the button reply.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Tomy2Tone on 14 Dec 2014, 07:33 pm
I happened to stumble across a review on a home theater site last year where a guy was driving some Revel Salon's for two channel . He stated the Crown was the best amp he had used on the revels , even after using some real big buck amps . He described them as very neutral .Definitely can spend more on ones speakers with the savings of money . got to like that !

Can you post this review if possible? Would like to know what other amps he was using before settling on the Crown.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: mresseguie on 14 Dec 2014, 09:06 pm
That new post I had mentioned is #729.

Welcome to AC, 'sistemizer'!

Michael
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: roscoeiii on 14 Dec 2014, 09:15 pm
Speaking of experience with other amps,  I think someone asked about other amp experience.  Here is a list of other amps I've owned at one point or another. I've also heard many more in other,  less familiar systems, though then the amp's contributions are more difficult to judge.

First Watt F1, F2, F3, F4, F5, M2 (from my low powered days)
Atmasphere S30
Miniwatt N3
Pass Aleph 30
Rogue Stereo 90 (upgraded to Super Magnum)
Class D SDS 125
Butler 2250


Hmmm,  what else am I forgetting?

Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: roscoeiii on 14 Dec 2014, 09:16 pm
Oh,  and the great Butler 2250.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: OzarkTom on 14 Dec 2014, 09:24 pm
the Crown is good if your a dj but not for high end critical

Have you ever heard the Crown amp with reference speakers? And if so, what reference speakers were they? Why only for DJ?
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Folsom on 14 Dec 2014, 09:25 pm
Roscoe, What if you number them on how you like them?
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: roscoeiii on 14 Dec 2014, 11:47 pm
Roscoe, What if you number them on how you like them?

Well,  since it is a speaker matching exercise once you get to the quality of some of these amps,  it is a matter of synergy and personal preference for a certain style of sound.

That said,  some standouts in the systems suited to them are the First Watt F1, the F3, Atmasphere S30. Those were great with high  efficiency speakers.  In more demanding systems,  the Butler was fabulous with my SP Tech Minis. While the Rogue was the best I tried with my Von Schweikerts.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: opnly bafld on 15 Dec 2014, 12:00 am
Hmmm,  what else am I forgetting?

Decware SE84B   :green:
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Folsom on 15 Dec 2014, 12:03 am
I'm curious where the F series compares to the DriveCores. The F series can be built for a fairly low amount of money if you don't mind a hack-slob case. If you do, then you're talking hundreds more.

Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: roscoeiii on 15 Dec 2014, 12:34 am
Decware SE84B   :green:

Oh yeah,  that Decware was great. A good friend is running it in a great rig with his Klipsch.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: roscoeiii on 15 Dec 2014, 12:42 am
I'm curious where the F series compares to the DriveCores. The F series can be built for a fairly low amount of money if you don't mind a hack-slob case. If you do, then you're talking hundreds more.

Been a while since I have had speakers well suited to the FirstWatt designs. And I do think that the 6moons reviews capture their sound nicely. Though I know Srajan's  style of writing isn't everyone's fave. I think I'd probably stick with a FirstWatt design if using high sensitivity speakers,  especially if they didn't respond well to a high damping factor. Some amps with high damping factor can feel overdamped in the bass on speakers like Zu,  Lowthers, etc. The Pass Aleph 30 for example was overdamped with the Zu and similar DIY efforts I paired it with.

So not sure there are many speakers you'd be deciding between one or the other on. Too different amps, IMO.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: OzarkTom on 15 Dec 2014, 01:15 am
 :o

Just after only one hour of warm-up, the Salis Audio 1500 is bettering my 2500. I didn't expect that until at least 24 hours.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Tomy2Tone on 15 Dec 2014, 01:25 am
:o

Just after only one hour of warm-up, the Salis Audio 1500 is bettering my 2500. I didn't expect that until at least 24 hours.

Care to describe exactly what you're hearing that's better?  :D
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: OzarkTom on 15 Dec 2014, 01:35 am
Care to describe exactly what you're hearing that's better?  :D

More liquid, more articulate, the wolf on Roger Walters Amuzed to Death is now at 3 o'clock instead of 1 o'clock. Soundstage is not as forward, so the depth is farther back.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Tomy2Tone on 15 Dec 2014, 01:43 am
More liquid, more articulate, the wolf on Roger Walters Amuzed to Death is now at 3 o'clock instead of 11 o'clock. Soundstage is not as forward, so the depth is farther back.

Sounds great! I assume it's better to get his mod before you get the cryo treatment, correct?
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: OzarkTom on 15 Dec 2014, 01:45 am
Sounds great! I assume it's better to get his mod before you get the cryo treatment, correct?

When the cryo amp comes in, we will see how it stacks up. Then the Pomona posts, and then cryo.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: roscoeiii on 15 Dec 2014, 01:48 am
 cryo should go out tomorrow.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Tomy2Tone on 15 Dec 2014, 01:50 am
When the cryo amp comes in, we will see how it stacks up. Then the Pomona posts, and then cryo.

Ok, gotcha. I just sent Salis a pm so I'll wait to see if he's willing to do it for me or not.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Tomy2Tone on 16 Dec 2014, 01:31 am
 Just dropped off my Crown 1500's at FedEx to make their way to Salis Audio for some modding. Then get home and flipped on the news to find out today is the busiest shipping day of the year!  :duh:

And of course they had to show a picture of a FedEx truck in an accident with about a million boxes scattered on the freeway!  :o  :xmas:
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: DaveC113 on 16 Dec 2014, 02:13 am
Yup, there was a line out the post office door today. I can't believe more people don't buy shipping online. Shipping is such a quandary, the rates for insurance are absurd... if I insured everything the costs would be astronomical so I only use insurance if I really couldn't take the financial loss, otherwise I figure I'll just take the loss if it happens. At this time of year I usually buy insurance for a portion of the value of the contents just so I have some protection...

One tip... insurance is MUCH cheaper using express rather than priority, to the point you will pay more to ship via priority than express with high value packages many times!

Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: rodge827 on 16 Dec 2014, 02:14 am
Just dropped off my Crown 1500's at FedEx to make their way to Salis Audio for some modding. Then get home and flipped on the news to find out today is the busiest shipping day of the year!  :duh:

And of course they had to show a picture of a FedEx truck in an accident with about a million boxes scattered on the freeway!  :o  :xmas:

Well if your amp arrives with tire marks across it then...  :P
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Tomy2Tone on 16 Dec 2014, 02:23 am
I tried going to the Post Office twice today but both times it was rediculoudly busy. FedEx was a breeze!

I popped the Job 225 back in the mix and forgot what a great amp it really is. It's similar to the Crown but with a little more body and soul, some would call it musical. It's a real nice amp. Whenever Ozarktom decides to sell his Job, somebody is going to get a great amp at a discount.  :wink:
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Folsom on 16 Dec 2014, 07:41 pm
Everyone is welcome to PM for getting their unit modified.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: rodge827 on 17 Dec 2014, 12:55 am
 FYI,
 Was cruising through Lowes today and came across the Cedar Rings, $7.99 20pk.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: OzarkTom on 17 Dec 2014, 03:25 am
FYI,
 Was cruising through Lowes today and came across the Cedar Rings, $7.99 20pk.

Amazon went up in price, but now 5.99 for 20.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Folsom on 17 Dec 2014, 03:30 am
Amazon went up in price, but now 5.99 for 20.

I think I'm going to use these for feet on different things for awhile, until a lathe comes into the picture.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: zapper7 on 17 Dec 2014, 04:39 am
Out here in the desert, the best part of that "upgrade", the scent, lasts about 1.25 hours....and its winter and somewhat "soggy" here now.....good grief :lol: :lol:
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: rodge827 on 17 Dec 2014, 02:44 pm
Out here in the desert, the best part of that "upgrade", the scent, lasts about 1.25 hours....and its winter and somewhat "soggy" here now.....good grief :lol: :lol:

I have 3 bags of the rings under and on top of all  my gear.
The room smells great until the bean dip kicks in.  :o
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: a.wayne on 17 Dec 2014, 03:08 pm
So that stuff really does something or is it the placebo woody effect ...............
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: steve f on 17 Dec 2014, 05:07 pm
I just got an email from Amazon. The Crown XLS series is back on sale. The price is also lower on the 1500. I just ordered another. I'm thinking vertical crossovers with almost no speaker cables. For a guy like me who is always building speakers, this is great.

Steve
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Tomy2Tone on 17 Dec 2014, 05:21 pm
The tour amp just left Chicago..and is headed for New Jersey.

Exit 58 to be exact!  :D

rodge827- Jersey

mjosef- Brooklyn

SteveFord- PA

jtsnead- MD

Freo-1- MA

zapper7- NV

Peter J- ID

S Clark- TX

gregfisk- WA
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Alan on 17 Dec 2014, 07:27 pm
I just got an email from Amazon. The Crown XLS series is back on sale. The price is also lower on the 1500. I just ordered another. I'm thinking vertical crossovers with almost no speaker cables. For a guy like me who is always building speakers, this is great.

Steve

I was looking for comments on the crossover and dsp functions of this amp. Please keep us informed.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: OzarkTom on 17 Dec 2014, 11:07 pm
I just got an email from Amazon. The Crown XLS series is back on sale. The price is also lower on the 1500. I just ordered another. I'm thinking vertical crossovers with almost no speaker cables. For a guy like me who is always building speakers, this is great.

Steve

That should sound great, post some pics as you build them.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: *Scotty* on 18 Dec 2014, 12:52 am
The Crown XLS series doesn't have any DSP functionality, you would need the Crown DSi series for DSP capability.
The curious thing is that the Crown DSi 2000 is speced differently from the Crown XLS 2000. The DSi 2000 is rated at 475 watts at 1kHz into 8 ohms, 100 watts per channel more into 8ohms than the XLS 2000 and it weighs almost twice as much. 19lbs for the DSi 2000 vs. 10.8 for the XLS 2000. A 1% clipping point is even given for a couple of load conditions.
Link to DSi Series datasheet. http://www.crownaudio.com/media/wysiwyg/DSi/DSi_Data_Sheet.pdf
The DSi 1000 is on my short list for DSP enabled bass room correction via multiple subs.
Scotty
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: dlaloum on 18 Dec 2014, 01:29 am
Not much talk about inside topology other than the PSU... I doubt it is a drivecore amp. May not be class d
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: *Scotty* on 18 Dec 2014, 01:51 am
The DSi power consumption vs heat dissipation looks a lot like a Class A/B amp. The power dissipated as heat driving a 2ohm load at 1/3 power with pink noise is about 3.75 times higher than its XLS counterpart.
Scotty
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: DaveC113 on 18 Dec 2014, 01:52 am
The Crown XLS series doesn't have any DSP functionality, you would need the Crown DSi series for DSP capability.
The curious thing is that the Crown DSi 2000 is speced differently from the Crown XLS 2000. The DSi 2000 is rated at 475 watts at 1kHz into 8 ohms, 100 watts per channel more into 8ohms than the XLS 2000 and it weighs almost twice as much. 19lbs for the DSi 2000 vs. 10.8 for the XLS 2000. A 1% clipping point is even given for a couple of load conditions.
Link to DSi Series datasheet. http://www.crownaudio.com/media/wysiwyg/DSi/DSi_Data_Sheet.pdf
The DSi 1000 is on my short list for DSP enabled bass room correction via multiple subs.
Scotty

Agreed, I want to try out the DSi too. In general I don't like the idea of DSP or want it anywhere near my speakers but it's worth trying for the bass imo.

I don't think it's Drivecore either but still worth a shot.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: OzarkTom on 18 Dec 2014, 03:32 am
I wonder if Roscoe has tried bi-amping yet?

For Mr_Bill and other Magnepan owners, I found a mini review on driving the Magnepans with a Drivecore 2000 amp.

http://forums.stevehoffman.tv/threads/crown-drivecore-amps-in-the-house.337938/
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: brklnclln on 18 Dec 2014, 05:23 am
Speaking of experience with other amps,  I think someone asked about other amp experience.  Here is a list of other amps I've owned at one point or another. I've also heard many more in other,  less familiar systems, though then the amp's contributions are more difficult to judge.

First Watt F1, F2, F3, F4, F5, M2 (from my low powered days)
Atmasphere S30
Miniwatt N3
Pass Aleph 30
Rogue Stereo 90 (upgraded to Super Magnum)
Class D SDS 125
Butler 2250


Hmmm,  what else am I forgetting?

How did the Crown stack up against the Class D amp? I'm toying with the idea of getting the Crown, a Class D SDS, or building a Hyperx UCD based amp.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: a.wayne on 18 Dec 2014, 10:09 am
The XTI have (dsp) the features you seek and still uses  drivecore ......
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: OzarkTom on 18 Dec 2014, 10:57 am
The XTI have (dsp) the features you seek and still uses  drivecore ......

I keep looking for the mention of Drivecore, but Crowns website never even mentions it.

http://www.crownaudio.com/usa/amplifiers/xti-2-series.html
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: a.wayne on 18 Dec 2014, 02:28 pm
You are right i compared power draw and dissipated and its different ...

 I Guess  we have to wait for the comparision between XLS/XTI  to know which way to go,  the dsp and xover flexibility  in the xti is the winner to me if using to power subs .....
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: JohanH on 18 Dec 2014, 04:12 pm
I keep looking for the mention of Drivecore, but Crowns website never even mentions it.

http://www.crownaudio.com/usa/amplifiers/xti-2-series.html

Looking at the power dissipation figures I'm doubting they are even Class-D..
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Odal3 on 18 Dec 2014, 04:45 pm
From the Crown forum:

"Hmmm... not advertised I guess. Here's a brief rundown:
XLS Drivecore:  Class D
XLS-D:  Class AB
XTi/CDi/DSi 1/2/4002:   Class AB+B
XTi/CDi/DSi 6k:  Class I
CTs600/1200:  Class AB+B
CTs2k/3k:  Class I
MAi:  Class I
iTHD:  Class I"
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: JohanH on 18 Dec 2014, 06:53 pm
Thanks,

intrigued by Class I but cannot find anything on Crown website or elsewhere (crown technical paper returns 404 error)
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: steve f on 18 Dec 2014, 08:51 pm
Class I ?? Perhaps it's just a marketing name at this point. Did anyone try a patent search?
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: a.wayne on 18 Dec 2014, 09:20 pm
Rasta amp .............  :lol:
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: jk@home on 18 Dec 2014, 11:02 pm
http://www.crownaudio.com/media/pdf/amps/137234.pdf (http://www.crownaudio.com/media/pdf/amps/137234.pdf)
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: mjosef on 19 Dec 2014, 01:36 am
Crown XTi are class A/B with a smps. Like so...


(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=110654)

The DSP in the XLS is a stripped down version of the one used on the  Xtiseries, which offer slopes from 6-48dB, and infinitely variable crossover points to 3 decimal places between 20-20KHz, 6 parametric EQ on the input and 8 parametric EQ on the output...etc.




Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Folsom on 19 Dec 2014, 01:47 am
They feature an input filter too, interesting. Crown's got game these days.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Alan on 19 Dec 2014, 03:06 am
OK I'm getting confuzled. We got the XLS with basic crossover ability. It seems the DSI and XTI add more dsp functionality. Now I'm seeing an XLi which looks to be bare bones, least expensive. The only one billed as 'drivecore' is the xls.

Seems that xti would make a heck of a woof amp. Might give it a try.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: a.wayne on 19 Dec 2014, 03:22 am
Must be an echo in here .....  :lol:
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: JohanH on 19 Dec 2014, 03:39 am
http://www.crownaudio.com/media/pdf/amps/137234.pdf (http://www.crownaudio.com/media/pdf/amps/137234.pdf)

Thanks for finding this.

But frankly I lost interest after their marketing bs describing class a and b.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: OzarkTom on 19 Dec 2014, 11:25 am
 Amazon has taken off the 15% off deal.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: dlaloum on 19 Dec 2014, 01:19 pm
Seems to me the Class-I amps are another variation on PWM based amps. In other words, Class-D.

The twist here is designed for power efficiency, not clear what it does to sound though - if anyone tries it, would be nice to get some feedback compared to well known audiophile contenders...
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: OzarkTom on 20 Dec 2014, 05:18 am
My buddy Rex bought these binding posts off of EBay and they just arrived. He says these are a work of art. If he gets time this weekend, he will see if they will fit on the Crown with no mods.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/4P-Copper-Hi-End-Amplifier-Speaker-Terminal-Binding-Post-GF-/291331442836?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item43d4b50894
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: mjosef on 20 Dec 2014, 05:44 am
He will have to enlarge the holes in the plastic plate, I have the red copper version of those, the post is about 1/4" thick.

Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: wushuliu on 20 Dec 2014, 05:47 am
My buddy Rex bought these binding posts off of EBay and they just arrived. He says these are a work of art. If he gets time this weekend, he will see if they will fit on the Crown with no mods.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/4P-Copper-Hi-End-Amplifier-Speaker-Terminal-Binding-Post-GF-/291331442836?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item43d4b50894

Hm, I dunno. You can get the Cardas copper posts for the same price. Unless they offer proof I've found the chinese ebay connectors to sometimes be not what they claim. They do look pretty though.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: mjosef on 20 Dec 2014, 06:01 am
My Xti is over 3 years old now, warranty is over...time to mess with shit...

Starting with a clean slate...

(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=110759)


I had an extra set of CMC out of Taiwan, had to drill out the holes to fit them,

(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=110757)

(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=110758)

Its back in on my subs...full range evaluations will have to wait until the tour-XLS gets here.




Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: JohanH on 20 Dec 2014, 06:44 am
I'd rather place my trust in industrial strength connectors.
Hirschmann PKNI 20 B rated 63A; should be enough


(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=110760)
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: OzarkTom on 20 Dec 2014, 11:34 am
Hm, I dunno. You can get the Cardas copper posts for the same price. Unless they offer proof I've found the chinese ebay connectors to sometimes be not what they claim. They do look pretty though.

Rex is very familiar with the Cardas, those were twice as much as these and you had to drill the hole larger and file quite a bit on the binding posts to make them fit. That was on the tour TBI amp. He likes the look of these over the Cardas. Since his amp is new, drilling will probably void the warranty.

According to that EBay listing, those binding posts were designed in the USA.

Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: srb on 20 Dec 2014, 01:45 pm
Since his amp is new, drilling will probably void the warranty.

Replacing and soldering in new binding posts won't?
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: OzarkTom on 20 Dec 2014, 01:54 pm
Replacing and soldering in new binding posts won't?

There is no soldering, so the originals can easily be replaced if you don't drill the holes larger.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: wushuliu on 20 Dec 2014, 03:00 pm
Rex is very familiar with the Cardas, those were twice as much as these and you had to drill the hole larger and file quite a bit on the binding posts to make them fit. That was on the tour TBI amp. He likes the look of these over the Cardas. Since his amp is new, drilling will probably void the warranty.

According to that EBay listing, those binding posts were designed in the USA.

Ok, just as long as it's clear that those posts won't have the same level of copper purity as the Cardas or Pomona tellurium posts. As for 'designed in USA' or any other language on those pages, you have to take them with a huge grain of salt. You've been warned!

btw the bare copper Cardas are 4/$50 at Soniccraft...
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: JohanH on 20 Dec 2014, 09:18 pm
Ok, just as long as it's clear that those posts won't have the same level of copper purity as the Cardas or Pomona tellurium posts.

Ad says they're copper plated (although eutectic) so no worries
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: *Scotty* on 20 Dec 2014, 09:28 pm
I have used them and somehow the "copper" plating makes up for what ever the purity of the brass substrate has.
Scotty
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: a.wayne on 20 Dec 2014, 11:08 pm
Hey look, guys listening and comparing amplfiers , errr, ahhh ........  :lol:
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: OzarkTom on 21 Dec 2014, 12:46 am
Hey look, guys listening and comparing amplfiers , errr, ahhh ........  :lol:

Well, if you like xylophones, this is the best class d amp I have ever heard for that type of music. It is very natural sounding.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Tomy2Tone on 21 Dec 2014, 01:10 am
Well, if you like xylophones, this is the best class d amp I have ever heard for that type of music. It is very natural sounding.

Hey Tom,

Is there any appetizer you can give us on the Cryo version vs the Salis mod version?

I'm anxiously waiting for my Crowns to return, I need some watts!
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: OzarkTom on 21 Dec 2014, 01:22 am
Hey Tom,

Is there any appetizer you can give us on the Cryo version vs the Salis mod version?

I'm anxiously waiting for my Crowns to return, I need some watts!

The cryo amp is not here yet. But what made a big difference tonight was putting a moongel pad on top of each cedar ring and weighing the amp down. I sat two 2.5 pound barbell weights on top, that made quite a bit of an improvement in the detail area. Even the volume seemed to have gone up slightly.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Tomy2Tone on 21 Dec 2014, 01:31 am
The cryo amp is not here yet. But what made a big difference tonight was putting a moongel pad on top of each cedar ring and weighing the amp down. I sat two 2.5 pound barbell weights on top, that made quite a bit of an improvement in the detail area. Even the volume seemed to have gone up slightly.

I keep forgetting about those moongel pads, next order on Amazon I'll have to look those up.

Has the Salis mod fully broken in? Just curious to hear any progress while I wait.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: OzarkTom on 21 Dec 2014, 01:40 am
I keep forgetting about those moongel pads, next order on Amazon I'll have to look those up.

Has the Salis mod fully broken in? Just curious to hear any progress while I wait.

Actually this Crown amp was never broken in. Salis Audio never had the time to break it in. At the moment this amp still has less than 100 hours on it.

I was getting a slight fatiguing edge tonight, I figured the Friday night AC gremlins was causing it, or the amp is not broken in enough. But the moongel pads and weights solved that problem. :D

On Amazon, there is one outfit that sells the moongel pads for $20 and you get four packs of six pads.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: jackman on 21 Dec 2014, 01:50 am
The cryo amp is not here yet. But what made a big difference tonight was putting a moongel pad on top of each cedar ring and weighing the amp down. I sat two 2.5 pound barbell weights on top, that made quite a bit of an improvement in the detail area. Even the volume seemed to have gone up slightly.

You should just slap a couple 45lb plates on top of the amp for even more detail! :thumb:

This thread is getting silly.  It's a nice amp for very little money. Try it and return if you don't like it. It didn't sound great in my system but it's the best cheap amp I've tried. I'm just amazed this thread has gone on for so long.  I heard the cryo version at Roscoe's house and it sounded Bette than stick but I'm not running out to buy one just het because, although I thought it sounded better, I'm not sure i could tell the difference between the cryo and regular in double blind testing.




Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: OzarkTom on 21 Dec 2014, 02:10 am
You should just slap a couple 45lb plates on top of the amp for even more detail! :thumb:

This thread is getting silly.  It's a nice amp for very little money. Try it and return if you don't like it. It didn't sound great in my system but it's the best cheap amp I've tried. I'm just amazed this thread has gone on for so long.  I heard the cryo version at Roscoe's house and it sounded Bette than stick but I'm not running out to buy one just het because, although I thought it sounded better, I'm not sure i could tell the difference between the cryo and regular in double blind testing.

No amp is perfect for everyone. So far, you are the only negative.  No one else has heard the Crown sound 2D. Even the Ncore tour brought several negatives. Less than half on the tour bought the Ncores, and there has been a few on that tour that has sold their Ncores. And this tour has just got started. You and Roscoe had the amp almost a month.

I never do A/B blind tests with amps, any Class D amp and most of the others needs at least 24 hours on to sound its best. I found that out as a dealer back in the 80's.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: lowtech on 21 Dec 2014, 02:24 am
Please help.  Was the Behringer iNUKE last month's favorite or is it still available for an upcoming month? 

(http://www.behringer.com/assets/NU6000DSP_banner.jpg)

p.s. The Neutrik connectors on the back of this one are of good quality and don't need to be changed/modified/frozen/etc.

/unsubscribed.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: DaveC113 on 21 Dec 2014, 03:23 am
The iNuke might also be worth trying for a subwoofer amp. The 6000W rating makes it seem much less appealing, on a 20A 120V circuit you have 2400 watt capacity. Could it even hit 6kW on brief peaks? Can it gracefully recover from a 6kW peak? I don't know...

Those ebay binding posts are also a Furutech copy of the entry level FP series posts, copper plated brass seems weird, I'd go with a plating that won't corrode. I'm trying out some of the Furutech low mass binding posts with rhodium plating, they look really cool. Probably not in the Crown, but maybe later if they really make a difference vs the Pomonas...

I'm not sure absolute judgements on gear ever lead to worthwhile discussions, everyone has different speakers and the amp-speaker pairings combined with all the other preferences, biases and subjective factors are too different to be able to make sweeping judgements on the value of most any gear. Like most things implementation of the system is key and there's no doubt that the Crown amp will not be a good match with every speaker in the world, but it may be a good match with some...

With my speakers the result is just short of what I'd expect from a $5-10k amp. It lacks the last few percent of refinement, correct tonality and midrange detail and bloom vs a world class amp. My DIY EL34 amp had no problem competing with an Air Tight Preamp driving Fi 2a3 monoblocks with my Omega speakers and Lamhorns with AER drivers, and I also have a totl Odyssey Stratos, so I have a decent reference, and the Crown does some things better then either the SET or the Stratos. I prefer it over the SET for some kinds of music and also for volumes over the high 80 dB range. The Stratos is probably better than the Crown overall but I do not have a good preamp for it right now so it's hard to tell... too much gain and it's way too noisy with 60 dB attenuated off the signal in my preamp to make a good comparison.  On imaging, with the Crown, the system is capable of having the speakers AND the room boundaries completely disappear, I get images in front of my speakers and also way behind the rear wall, and with a stage width much wider than the speaker placement. It images nearly as good as my SET amp, which is saying a lot as that is one of it's strong points. I like having both the Crown and the SET amp around so I have options.  :green:



Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: *Scotty* on 21 Dec 2014, 03:30 am
Do you have images between you and the speakers and images above or behind you? I have had some amps fill only the front half of the room with a sound field and other amps that fill the entire room with a sound field equaling total immersion in a recreated acoustic space.
Scotty
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: JohanH on 21 Dec 2014, 03:41 am
This thread is getting silly. 

That's half the fun, isn't it.
Other half would be useful information.

So please be seated, have some munchies and a beer

Cheers
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: dlaloum on 21 Dec 2014, 03:53 am
That's half the fun, isn't it.
Other half would be useful information.

So please be seated, have some munchies and a beer

Cheers
:thumb: :beer:
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: DaveC113 on 21 Dec 2014, 04:05 am
Do you have images between you and the speakers and images above or behind you? I have had some amps fill only the front half of the room with a sound field and other amps that fill the entire room with a sound field equaling total immersion in a recreated acoustic space.
Scotty

It's an "immersion" experience for sure, although I don't think I've heard an image behind me. Part of it is the horn/waveguide in my speakers though. It eliminates 1st reflections and is capable of projecting the images forward, with far more direct vs reflected sound the room doesn't interfere with imaging or soundstage size, and the detail is greatly improved too. I've had other amps that are not capable of this even if the speakers are, the sound seems to "stick" to the speakers and they don't audibly disappear. It takes a good amp to be able to produce the kind of results I am getting.

Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: *Scotty* on 21 Dec 2014, 05:47 am
Airto Moreira, Killer Bees, Banana Jam, will put images behind and above you. Empire Brass,Telarc, PASSAGE 138B.C.-A.D. 1611, tends to put you in the middle of the recording, reverberation seems to come from all around you. The cut, Si Dolce, has this quality in spades.
Craig Chaquico, On This Planet, Native Tongue, the first half of the song fills the room from wall to wall in front of you, then at about 4:30 it shifts gears into sense-surround. The third cut, Find Your Way Home,is entirely immersive with Craig's guitar echoing all around you. a trip to the rainforest of Southeast Cameroon can be had from Heart of The Forest, Music of the Baka Forest People. A live field recording done entirely out-of-doors in the jungle. Incredible you are there imaging. Brings entirely new meaning to the words "depth of image".
These imaging effects seem to be mostly non-existent when conventional speakers are listened in far-field rather than near-field. The phase relationships necessary are destructively interfered with or drowned out by the room reflections which predominate in far field listening.
Scotty
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: a.wayne on 21 Dec 2014, 11:01 am
Wow,

Front , back, up , down , behind you , total immersion , man you guys have something special  going on here or quite possibly the best high octane xmas juice around .... :xmas:


 :lol:
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: rodge827 on 21 Dec 2014, 01:58 pm
Did someone say Christmas Juice?


(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=110865)



Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: steve f on 21 Dec 2014, 02:11 pm
Christmas joy juice always helps.

Scotty thanks for listing the tracks.  It's always nice to learn of good music.
The most important parts of good sound reproduction are the recordings followed by the speakers. Electronics are third. After that, joy juice & snacks. Wires, pucks, and cords, you're on your own.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Tomy2Tone on 21 Dec 2014, 03:14 pm
Did someone say Christmas Juice?

Chris, your choice for Christmas ornaments is exquisite!   :notworthy:

Hopefully the tour amp arrives before the holiday, been waiting for your thoughts...for a while!  :D
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Tomy2Tone on 21 Dec 2014, 03:43 pm
We have one participant on the tour that has a D-sonic amp with the Pascal mpro-2 module that will be able to compare the Crown with.

Just curious if anybody else has heard any of D-sonics offerings? Their M3-600m-a amp is supposed to have the new Anaview(formerly ABLETEC) AMS 1000-2600 module and from what I've read is an excellent performer. Tons of wattage in these amps!
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: OzarkTom on 21 Dec 2014, 03:44 pm
I don't have any of Scotty's selections, but here is some that I have that goes way to the sides and around the back of my head. Santana-Supernatural, several of Michael Jackson's CD's, Madonna-Immaculate Conception, Roger Walters-Amused to Death, Ambrosia-Best of, Jill Scott-Collaborations, just to name a few. There are a lot more selections that I am in the middle of the soundstage width. Stevie Ray Vaughn's Dead Pan Alley is wild.

And these Crown amps will play it with no problem. Not all amps will do it.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Tomy2Tone on 21 Dec 2014, 03:47 pm
I don't have any of Scotty's selections, but here is some that I have that goes way to the sides and around the back of my head. Santana-Supernatural, several of Michael Jackson's CD's, Madonna-Immaculate Conception, Roger Walters-Amused to Death, Ambrosia-Best of, Jill Scott-Collaborations, just to name a few. There are a lot more selections that I am in the middle of the soundstage width. Stevie Ray Vaughn's Dead Pan Alley is wild.

And these Crown amps will play it with no problem. Not all amps will do it.

Supposedly Sting also has some recordings that give a 3 d effect but I can't remember which album or tracks.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: jackman on 21 Dec 2014, 03:55 pm
Ozark,

Are you serious?  I'm glad this amp has given you purpose to your life but everyone who says anything remotely negative is greeted to comments about magic wooden picks, heavy weights on top of the Amos and the magical benefits of cheap ebay binding posts.  Lots of people say this amp is 2D and im not sure people are listening, perhaps they are enampred by the low price.

My system has very good imaging and it was painfully obvious this amp sounded very forward and very 2D. I did not use any heavy weights or cryo treatments or expensive power cables for that matter. It's a cheap amp and not realistic for people to pump hundreds or thousands of dollars trying to get it sound better with snake oil. Your magic wooden pucks did absolutely nothing as I originally suspected.  More unfounded bullcrap.

If you don't value imaging and are willing to live with forward somewhat harsh sound, or if you have really dark sounding speakers, ithe XLS is worth a shot.  It's cheap, powerful and can be used as a sub amp  down the road. As a sub amp, I would use it in a heartbeat....even without the magic pucks, cryo treatments, or heavy sacks of flour, weights or whatever else you guys are stacking on it.

Let's see how many more pages we can get out of this one!  The amp is not new, it's been on the market for a few years. In my system, I can't say I've ever heard an amp sound more 2D and forward. Maybe I need more pucks
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: cab on 21 Dec 2014, 04:04 pm
No doubt some will like this amp and others will not. Sound is produced in a system of which there are infinite possibilities. To further complicate things, every person has their own personal preferences. So not only can we expect the results to be system dependent but also the evaluation to be biased by each individual's personal tastes. This is why I personally feel these tours are basically useless as far as cross system comparisons are concerned. Try it, you may like it, or not.

As for the cedar pucks, weights, etc., the less said the better....
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: roscoeiii on 21 Dec 2014, 04:09 pm
But Jack,  just because it was forward and 2D in your system doesn't mean it will be the case in everyone's. We also really discovered how forward your pre (at least relative to mine) was when we hooked it up in my place. I am not sure whether having two quite forward components will flatten things out and make them 2D, or if this is 2 separate issues in your system.

Can't say much about the imaging since that is a real weakness in my current set up,  and not a priority for me.  But yeah,  I have yet to hear that excel with the XLS. Best thing is that it is easy to try out in anyone's system thanks to it being sold by Amazon and other retailers with good return policies. 
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: wushuliu on 21 Dec 2014, 04:14 pm
Ozark,

Are you serious?  I'm glad this amp has given you purpose to your life

Hey now, man, come on... :nono:
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: OzarkTom on 21 Dec 2014, 04:17 pm
Jackman,

Who else here said the Crown amp is 2D sounding?  I must have missed that. If the Crown was 2D, I would never get to hear things behind my head on those special recordings. If the Crown was 2D sounding, I would have sold it long ago and made some money off of it.

Your Ncores was more than likely put together with better parts, what is wrong with putting some better parts on the Crown amps? Let's see, I spent $140 for the Crown amp, $7 bucks on the cedar rings, $7 for the moongel pads, $35 for the cryo, $50 for the Pomonas. For less than 250 bucks, I now have an amp that is more detailed than my $1700 Job amp. And I know of several here on AC that switched from the Ncores to the Job amp. Even my buddy Rex sold his Job after getting his Crown. He would never own a 2D amp.

Laugh about the moongel pads, but these actually work. Even the Cryoman was surprised that they worked so well. And the Cryoman has tried everything.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: jackman on 21 Dec 2014, 04:21 pm
Roscoe,
I agree that my amp did not sound right right with the SP tech speakers in your system. Don't know if it was the load, your preamp or power conditioner (power conditioners did not play nice with the NCore in my shstem either) but all of this talk of magic pucks and heavy weights started to get on my nerves.  The cheap Chinese binding posts (designed in the USA of course) may have put me over the top.

Do you recall the impact those magic cedar pucks had on the Crown in my system?  Neither do i... Maybe we should have followed the advise of some of the resident "experts"  and tried stacking weights on top of things or applying generous amounts of actual snake oil to our gear.

Just kidding, I hope you have a great holiday and look forward to catching up during the break. Seriously, I thought the crown amps sounded great in your system, even without any "magic" devices. Looking forward to trying the 2500 in my system sometime.  If it sounds great, I'm not afraid to eat crow. It wouldn't be the first time.

Cheers

Jack
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: cab on 21 Dec 2014, 04:21 pm

Your Ncores was more than likely put together with better parts, what is wrong with putting some better parts on the Crown amps? Let's see, I spent $140 for the Crown amp, $7 bucks on the cedar rings, $7 for the moongel pads, $35 for the cryo. For less than 200 bucks, I now have an amp that is more detailed than my $1700 Job amp. And I know of several here on AC that switched from the Ncores to the Job amp. Even my buddy Rex sold his Job after getting his Crown. He would never own a 2D amp.



Who cares? Is this some sort of contest? Glad you like it. Not everyone will. Accept it and move on....
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: wushuliu on 21 Dec 2014, 04:25 pm
The tours are always useful because you can still draw a consensus from feedback and observations. You can get a sense of an amp's overall tonal qualities, ability to drive a range of speakers, and potential anomalies. I appreciate and value tour threads.

The Crown has been stuck with only two people for a long period of time while the thread is barreling forward, giving the impression that there's more feedback than there really is.

This is the hobby. This is what we do. We shouldn't poo poo people for certain proclivities because it inconveniences us or offends our audio 'beliefs'. Dude wants to slap wooden pucks over under or around with some hot sauce on top, wtf not? Nobody died. This thread isn't being submitted to AES.

Quote
The Dude: You brought the Pomeranian bowling?

Walter Sobchak: What do you mean brought it bowling, Dude? I didn't rent it shoes. I'm not buying it a f'ing beer. He's not taking your f'ing turn, Dude.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: jackman on 21 Dec 2014, 04:27 pm
Who cares? Is this some sort of contest? Glad you like it. Not everyone will. Accept it and move on....

In fairness to Ozark, I started the latest exchange.  The talk of weights and gels transforming sound always sets me off. I blame myself.

Cheers

J
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: cab on 21 Dec 2014, 04:33 pm
I only care about what I think in my specific system in my specific environment. What others find may or may not have any correlation in my experience to what I might find. And given the large diversity in tastes, preferences, and perceptions, I take others subjective impressions with a grain of salt. I will agree that the tour offers potentially valuable info as far as objective factors are concerned, but when it comes to anything sound related, not so much....
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: cab on 21 Dec 2014, 04:34 pm
In fairness to Ozark, I started the latest exchange.  The talk of weights and gels transforming sound always sets me off. I blame myself.

Cheers

J

True. My apologies to Mr. Ozark....
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: OzarkTom on 21 Dec 2014, 04:43 pm
In fairness to Ozark, I started the latest exchange.  The talk of weights and gels transforming sound always sets me off. I blame myself.

Cheers

J

No worries jackman and cab. Merry Christmas!'

And wushuliu is right. Amp tours here on AC is very generous by the owners and very helpful to others here on AC. No amp on any tour is ever going to get 100% positive feedback from the listeners.

Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: a.wayne on 21 Dec 2014, 07:26 pm
Man ,

Whats the big deal guys , its only Audio,  :roll: each should take what  they want from the experience and move on, i wont be buying any NASA MOONGEL or Dots :)  but hey if anyone else does , i can see adding mass to a cheap light weight cabinet making a difference  thou and I'm happy to see these tours .. :thumb:

Ozark, on the chokes did you get the J or H version ...?
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: rodge827 on 21 Dec 2014, 07:28 pm
Chris, your choice for Christmas ornaments is exquisite!   :notworthy:

Hopefully the tour amp arrives before the holiday, been waiting for your thoughts...for a while!  :D

Thanks for the compliment.
When the Holidays get me down and the stress is just too much, I grab an ornament, pop the top, and pour joy into a frozen pint glass.
Ahhhh now that's relief!  :xmas:

Yeah I hope the amp shows up soon too...Yo Roscoe got a tracking number for me?   :D


(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=91944)


Chris
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: OzarkTom on 21 Dec 2014, 07:42 pm


Ozark, on the chokes did you get the J or H version ...?

I ordered the M version but have not had the time to hook it up. My wife now has the house in disarray for the family Christmas party this week, so no more serious listening until that happens. :cry:
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: steve f on 23 Dec 2014, 10:46 pm
I placed the new xls1500 in my system. It sounds a bit closed in compared to the first one. I'm running, or at least trying to run it 24/7 for a week. The sound is improving rapidly. Next up bridging and also running the amps as monoblocks using a single channel off each.
I look forward to more reviews by the tour group.

Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays to all.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Tomy2Tone on 24 Dec 2014, 12:42 am
I placed the new xls1500 in my system. It sounds a bit closed in compared to the first one. I'm running, or at least trying to run it 24/7 for a week. The sound is improving rapidly. Next up bridging and also running the amps as monoblocks using a single channel off each.
I look forward to more reviews by the tour group.

Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays to all.

Merry Christmas to you steve f and thanks for sharing!

Definitely keep us posted as to how everything goes. Hopefully after the holidays we'll get some more reviews.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: rodge827 on 24 Dec 2014, 01:08 am
Hopefully after the holidays we'll get some more reviews.

The tour will continue!  :D

Roscoe has sent me a tracking number and when the amp arrives I will post accordingly.

Chris
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: roscoeiii on 24 Dec 2014, 03:44 am
The tour will continue!  :D

Roscoe has sent me a tracking number and when the amp arrives I will post accordingly.

Chris

Yes, apologies on messing up the shipping to Chris. Please berate me accordingly and put me last in line for other tours.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: OzarkTom on 24 Dec 2014, 04:28 am
Yes, apologies on messing up the shipping to Chris. Please berate me accordingly and put me last in line for other tours.

Any tracking number for me yet? My wife and I are going to be gone for a few days and I don't want to miss it. I still need to install my USA made Pomona binding posts in the Salis amp and see how that sounds before I send it to the cryoman.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: roscoeiii on 24 Dec 2014, 04:53 am
They couldn't guarantee delivery before you left so I held onto it. Shoot me a PM to remind me when you get back.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Folsom on 24 Dec 2014, 06:51 pm
When you go to put binding posts in, go to hardware store and get an extra nut per binding post. Use this nut to lock the second in place.

You can get a single tight, but it's easier to use a locknut and less likely to move.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Jazzaudio on 25 Dec 2014, 03:27 am
Christmas came early for me.   I was unaware of this thread, having talked about my discovery of the XLS1500 on another circle (Omega).  Obviously a shoddy online search was previously conducted by me...because my nephew found this!  I see a lot of familiar names....this is obviously the place to be!

For the past several days in between food and football we've all been sitting around listening to music through the XLS1500 with my Omegas, and thoroughly enjoying the music: jazz, Christmas, more jazz, classical. Before I use to comment on the sound when family is around.   Now I just enjoy music. Perfect reproduction?  Doubt it.  But the amp does so many things well I'm getting to the point of not caring.   
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: roscoeiii on 26 Dec 2014, 05:33 pm
Tour moves on! According to FedEx, the tour XLS is on the truck for delivery to Chris (rodge827). Look forward to your impressions!
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Tomy2Tone on 26 Dec 2014, 05:50 pm
Tour moves on! According to FedEx, the tour XLS is on the truck for delivery to Chris (rodge827). Look forward to your impressions!

Sweet!

Hey Roscoe, has there been a combination or setup that you've liked with your new SP Techs so far or are you still experimenting?

Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: roscoeiii on 26 Dec 2014, 06:15 pm
Sweet!

Hey Roscoe, has there been a combination or setup that you've liked with your new SP Techs so far or are you still experimenting?

And according to FedEx, it is delivered. Enjoy Chris!

I am planning on A/Bing the 2000s as monos vs one in stereo this weekend. As you may recall, Jack had a preference for 1 2000 in stereo over the bridged configuration when he was over. I hadn't reached a conclusion, and will go back and listen for the things Jack preferred in the single 2000.

I'll also finally get around to hooking them up to my Von Schweikert VR-4 Gen IIs, which I think could be an excellent match for the XLS due to their laid back presentation of music. I've had to do what I can to the VR-4s with paired equipment to goose them a bit more forward.

And as forward as Jack's preamp turned out to be, there is a real possibility that too forward a combo would pose synergy problems.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: rodge827 on 26 Dec 2014, 06:34 pm
Yep it arrived about 30 mins ago.
Hope to set it up and let it run in for a while.
Still have many Christmas obligations over the long weekend and will do some listening (got some good tunes for Christmas) when I can .
Will post conclusions towards the end of next week.

Hope everyone was blessed during this holiday time,

Chris
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: OzarkTom on 29 Dec 2014, 01:18 am
Here is someone with 5 used 2000's and 7 used 2500 amps. :o

http://dallas.craigslist.org/sdf/msg/4816281488.html
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: a.wayne on 29 Dec 2014, 05:41 pm
Thks for posting the link Tom .....
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: OzarkTom on 29 Dec 2014, 09:47 pm
Heckufadeal on this one. A 2000 for 200 bucks.

http://austin.craigslist.org/msg/4821761954.html
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Tomy2Tone on 29 Dec 2014, 10:13 pm
Should be receiving my two Crown 1500's tomorrow from Salis Audio. Looking forward to seeing the effect of the mods.

Reached in the back of my closet and yanked out a Rogue Perseus to put in the mix. Almost forgot I had it. Sounds fantastic with the Pascal amp from Aluminatti!

After the Crowns settle in I'll see how the Perseus handles things with them. Anybody else using a tubed pre with the Crowns?
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: rodge827 on 29 Dec 2014, 10:20 pm
Anybody else using a tubed pre with the Crowns?

Ifi ITube as buffer between pre and your amp.  :D

Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Tomy2Tone on 29 Dec 2014, 10:23 pm
Ifi ITube as buffer between pre and your amp.  :D

That's right, you and Ozarktom! I just looked up DaveC113's old post from page 5 and remembered he's got a tubed pre.

Chris, how do you control the volume? With the DSPeaker 2.0 or Ifi ?
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: rodge827 on 29 Dec 2014, 10:31 pm
That's right, you and Ozarktom! I just looked up DaveC113's old post from page 5 and remembered he's got a tubed pre.

Chris, how do you control the volume? With the DSPeaker 2.0 or Ifi ?

Dspeaker Dual Core 2.0  :D

And that's all yer gettin' till I'm ready to post my review!  :P
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Tomy2Tone on 29 Dec 2014, 10:36 pm
Dspeaker Dual Core 2.0  :D

And that's all yer gettin' till I'm ready to post my review!  :P

Fair enough.  :D

I have an itube I use at work for my shop speakers and like what it does. I keep thinking I should bring it home and try on the setup I have here.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: roscoeiii on 29 Dec 2014, 11:12 pm
Ifi ITube as buffer between pre and your amp.  :D

Thinking very hard about picking one of these up. But worry that my chain may be getting far too complex...

What I am currently envisioning:

Sources --> preamp (Musical Fidelity kW) --> DSPeaker Dual Core (for DSP and digital EQ room correction) --> Toslink output to a Wyred4Sound Remedy reclocker --> Coax output to Yamamoto YDA-01 DAC --> iTube at +6dB -->XLS 2000 --> SP Tech Revelation speakers

Why? You might ask. Well, let me explain the logic in favor of this complex chain:

1) the Yamamoto DAC sounds great. Killer analog output stage
2) BUT the DAC has a quite high output impedance (2.6 kOhm) which is higher than ideal for the 10 kOhm input impedance of the XLS 2000
3) The iTube as a buffer can provide a lower impedance signal to the XLS, in addition to providing the 3D feature and "Digital Antidote" feature
4) The XLS in my experience seems to sound better with a higher strength signal (pro gear designers probably had the higher levels of XLR signals in mind when designing this amp), so the +6dB option of the buffer could potentially be of assistance.

Of course, all of this flies in the face of the KISS principle. But I can try out the iTube and see, and Music Direct has a great return policy. (This will be once I unbrick my DSPeaker which did not react well to my attempt to upgrade the firmware; great customer support from them in getting that resolved, but no luck yet since I have a very early model).

Feel free to talk me down from that convoluted set-up. It's a lot of gear in the chain for sure.

Or the other alternative would be to run the Dual Core-Yamamoto combo through the tape loop of my preamp and then run the signal from my preamp to the amp.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Tomy2Tone on 30 Dec 2014, 03:06 am
Thinking very hard about picking one of these up. But worry that my chain may be getting far too complex...

What I am currently envisioning:

Sources --> preamp (Musical Fidelity kW) --> DSPeaker Dual Core (for DSP and digital EQ room correction) --> Toslink output to a Wyred4Sound Remedy reclocker --> Coax output to Yamamoto YDA-01 DAC --> iTube at +6dB -->XLS 2000 --> SP Tech Revelation speakers

Why? You might ask. Well, let me explain the logic in favor of this complex chain:

1) the Yamamoto DAC sounds great. Killer analog output stage
2) BUT the DAC has a quite high output impedance (2.6 kOhm) which is higher than ideal for the 10 kOhm input impedance of the XLS 2000
3) The iTube as a buffer can provide a lower impedance signal to the XLS, in addition to providing the 3D feature and "Digital Antidote" feature
4) The XLS in my experience seems to sound better with a higher strength signal (pro gear designers probably had the higher levels of XLR signals in mind when designing this amp), so the +6dB option of the buffer could potentially be of assistance.

Of course, all of this flies in the face of the KISS principle. But I can try out the iTube and see, and Music Direct has a great return policy. (This will be once I unbrick my DSPeaker which did not react well to my attempt to upgrade the firmware; great customer support from them in getting that resolved, but no luck yet since I have a very early model).

Feel free to talk me down from that convoluted set-up. It's a lot of gear in the chain for sure.

Or the other alternative would be to run the Dual Core-Yamamoto combo through the tape loop of my preamp and then run the signal from my preamp to the amp.

Is there a reference webpage anywhere that covers what input impedance and output voltage matches better for each particular component in the chain?

I'm still trying to understand what should work and what should work better vs not a good match at all. When I first got the Perseus I had it between a w4s dac2 and w4s sx 500 amps and it was too much with my Songtowers. I' didn't like it at all and preferred my avr at the time. It wasn't smooth and engaging like it is now with the DSPeaker Dual Core as a dac and Pascal amp with Soundscape 8's.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: ernest787 on 30 Dec 2014, 03:29 am
I have a 2500 hooked up to my Salk HT3s and a 1500 on my Songtower RTs.  It is a fun little amp and does a very good job for the money... especially on the used market where you can find really good deals. 

That being said, I will likely purchase an AVA amp this year to replace the 2500 on the HT3s.  The 2500 will probably be moved to the other room and hooked up to the STRT. 

Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: roscoeiii on 30 Dec 2014, 04:20 am
Is there a reference webpage anywhere that covers what input impedance and output voltage matches better for each particular component in the chain?

I'm still trying to understand what should work and what should work better vs not a good match at all. When I first got the Perseus I had it between a w4s dac2 and w4s sx 500 amps and it was too much with my Songtowers. I' didn't like it at all and preferred my avr at the time. It wasn't smooth and engaging like it is now with the DSPeaker Dual Core as a dac and Pascal amp with Soundscape 8's.

General rule of thumb is to have the input impedance 10x greater than the output impedance of the device sending the signal. Though some say 5x difference is fine. It also crossed my mind that impedance mismatch could also have been affecting things in Jack's system. Or not. Just more speculation about what wasn't working there...
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: steve f on 30 Dec 2014, 12:08 pm
Just an update on my xls 1500 amps. This was the first time in my experience that break in was quick and dramatic. The second amp went from closed in and perhaps a bit dull to open and pleasant in about twenty hours of play. It got noticeably better rather quickly. The amps now sound identical.

Just some filler until the tour guys post.

Steve
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: wisnon on 30 Dec 2014, 01:08 pm
Dspeaker Dual Core 2.0  :D

And that's all yer gettin' till I'm ready to post my review!  :P

Well, Hurry up then! LoL

How you doing Chris?
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: jk@home on 31 Dec 2014, 10:35 pm
Just an update on my xls 1500 amps. This was the first time in my experience that break in was quick and dramatic. The second amp went from closed in and perhaps a bit dull to open and pleasant in about twenty hours of play. It got noticeably better rather quickly. The amps now sound identical.

Just some filler until the tour guys post.

Steve

Speaking of break in. Today I picked up two new XLS1500s from the same Guitar Center that I returned my first one (before it broke in. :roll:) Pretty sure neither one is the one I returned.  :lol:

When I bought the first one, had to order it from GC on line, as the local store didn't carry any in stock. Now they have all the models. :thumb:

This time the plan is to keep them no matter what, if not in the stereo system, then they can replace the old Mackie FR1400s I use in the HT system (driving Paradigm Studios). Nothing else, it will reduce the fan noise coming out of the HT equipment closet.

Now that I have a preamp with high gain and balanced outputs (NuForce MCP-18), hopefully can get the Drivecores right with the KEFs in the stereo system. Also will be adding a MiniDSP NanoDIGI in the digital front end so will have the ability to tweak the tone of the system with EQ. Fun stuff.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Folsom on 31 Dec 2014, 10:42 pm
I've modded three amps, and can't wait to hear about results. The 4th is sitting next to me and awaits a few parts then it'll be off for cryo.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Tomy2Tone on 1 Jan 2015, 12:06 am
Ok, I received my two Crown 1500's yesterday from Salis and have been running them since I put them back in my setup.

I'm going to have to refer to Ozarktom for any direct comparisons with the Salis mod vs one of his dozen or so stock Crowns.  :)

It's been two weeks or so since I last had them and I've changed a few things around. Like different speakers and implementing a tubed pre. But I'll give a comparison between speakers and amps here for a reference.

My setup before consisted of a pair of Salk Songtowers with a DSPeaker Dual Core 2.0 as a dac/pre and Crown 1500's in bridged mode. I also used a Job 225 and a Aluminatti X2 in and out trying to figure what amp I thought worked best. The Songtowers are the standard dome version and really sang with all three amps. The Crowns really opened things up a gave a lot of dynamics in all types of music, I was impressed from the moment I heard them. It was a forward sounding presentation but if I had to nitpick I would say things sounded a little on the thin side but only in comparison to the X2. I probably would be happy if I had just the Crowns with the Songtowers. The X2 was incredibly clear and very neutral sounding and less forward but I would say lacked a little soul and body that the Job provided. The Job I think matched up best with the Songtowrs with offering incredible bass performance and a natural voice to female and male alike. It just seemed right.

Now on to the Soundscape 8's that I just picked up while the Crowns were off to Salis for the mods. The room I'm using is not ideal at the moment and is just temporary until I move later in the new year so bear with me. The Songtowers I thought did really well in this room that is about 12' by 13'. I took them down in an effort to get some time with the Soundscapes before the move. They have the accuton mid with a raal ribbon tweeter and two 8" bass drivers. So just a little different midrange than the Songtowers as well as the bass.

When I first hooked everything up I had the Job in the mix to see if it could drive the 8's. Everything I loved about the Job with the Songtowers was just blah with the 8's. From what I've read the Job is about 180 to 200 watts per channel in 4 ohm speakers so I knew I wasn't getting a whole heck of a lot but it was something. The Job actually sounded lean and kind of lifeless as compared to what it did before. The X2 didn't fair much better but was more enjoyable to listen to than the Job. It's pushing 500 watts per channel in 4 ohm speakers. I decided to pull out a Rogue Perseus tubed pre I've had for a while to see if it could add some spark to the mix. It definitely added some warmth and personality to the situation but I was still not enthused with how everything sounded. I kept saying it's probably the room not letting the SS8's strut their stuff but I was going to wait and see if the Crowns could add anything that was missing.

As soon as I hooked up the Crowns yesterday I had the gain set at 3 o'clock like I did with the Songtowers but in this case I was getting a very high noise floor in combination with the Perseus. Remeber this is in bridged mode giving 1500 watts per channel! I fiddled back and forth for a while on what seemed best and found the Crowns set at 1 o'clock with the DSPeaker maxed out and the Perseus being the main volume control. First thing I noticed was how crystal clear the sound was and being extremely smooth at the same time. Not thin sounding at all! Dynamics and punch with authoritative bass like I expected from these speakers Everything just came to life and I'm amazed I'm getting this good of a sound considering the room isn't the best for these SS8's.

The tubed pre and the Crowns seem to be a great match and I'm looking at sending in the Perseus for a "Magnum" upgrade. The Crowns sound so good I might wait a while before trying another amp and instead look at a Lampizator dac or something.  I'll let these Crowns run for a while before considering getting them the cryo treatment. I know this is long winded but thought it could be useful.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Tomy2Tone on 1 Jan 2015, 12:38 am
I've modded three amps, and can't wait to hear about results. The 4th is sitting next to me and awaits a few parts then it'll be off for cryo.

Hey Salis, would it be possible for you to give a break down on what exactly you did for the mods? In case people are wondering what's involved. I tried looking for what you wrote before but couldn't find it.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Folsom on 1 Jan 2015, 12:42 am
I dampen the filter, remove the line Y caps, replace the PFC diode bridge, and add decoupling to it on the primary side.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: roscoeiii on 1 Jan 2015, 03:19 pm

Now that I have a preamp with high gain and balanced outputs (NuForce MCP-18), hopefully can get the Drivecores right with the KEFs in the stereo system. Also will be adding a MiniDSP NanoDIGI in the digital front end so will have the ability to tweak the tone of the system with EQ. Fun stuff.

Looking forward to hearing how you like it with a high gain preamp. XLS like a pretty hot signal in my experience.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Tomy2Tone on 1 Jan 2015, 04:44 pm
Happy New Year everybody!

Listening some more this morning and I'm still astounded at the level of detail and prowess of the the crowns. I'm trying to understand why and looked up some specs. The Crowns say their input impedance in the balanced connection is 20 kohms. The output impedance of the Perseus is 450 ohms. I can't find the impedance of the DSPeaker but it says it has an output voltage of 7.2 for the RCA connection.

The DSPeaker is basically being used as a dac so it still has volume and I have it maxed out so I don't have to crank up the Perseus's volume because when I do it introduces a lot of noise/ hiss. So with the gains on the Crowns at 1 o'clock and the Perseus at 12 I'm getting a huge soundstage with gobs of detail, even at low volumes it's very impressive.

Any dspeaker dual core 2.0 owners know what the output impedance is of its connections? Their website just gives voltage. Just want to know what's happening and why it's working so well.

Look forward to rodge827 and others take on the Crown. Cheers!
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: guest61169 on 1 Jan 2015, 05:18 pm
...I can't find the impedance of the DSPeaker...

I don't own one but I found this thread:

http://www.hifiwigwam.com/showthread.php?100776-Line-level-or-speaker-level-feed
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Folsom on 1 Jan 2015, 05:41 pm
The Crowns appear to have a front end that would provide details like a buffer would. However, even knowing that, including specs you're not going to be able to understand the reason for detail with these minor bits of information. Distortion, SNR, etc, are clues towards an amplifiers ability for detail but not something that defines it.

The only thing I know abut OzarkTom's perceived difference is that someone in a track he listens to "changed" positions in the soundscape. That tells me that there's increased detail from my modification. The microphone probably places the majority of the person in spot A where many amps place him, but with more detail it orients not the pure SPL of the person, but the characteristics of them in references to the mic so it offsets some of the larger SPL to the ear giving a perceived different location. That's my guess, and it might be really off :thumb: .

Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Tomy2Tone on 1 Jan 2015, 05:55 pm
The Crowns appear to have a front end that would provide details like a buffer would. However, even knowing that, including specs you're not going to be able to understand the reason for detail with these minor bits of information. Distortion, SNR, etc, are clues towards an amplifiers ability for detail but not something that defines it.

The only thing I know abut OzarkTom's perceived difference is that someone in a track he listens to "changed" positions in the soundscape. That tells me that there's increased detail from my modification. The microphone probably places the majority of the person in spot A where many amps place him, but with more detail it orients not the pure SPL of the person, but the characteristics of them in references to the mic so it offsets some of the larger SPL to the ear giving a perceived different location. That's my guess, and it might be really off :thumb: .

I'll go with that!  :D

The Songtowers are 4 ohm nominal and 88db sensitive, the Soundscapes are 4 ohm nominal and 87db sensitive. So not a huge disparity but they are different speakers. All I know is before the mod the crowns, pascal, and Job were fairly close in performance with the Songtowers. Now after the mod with the Soundscapes the crowns are far and away the better performer, not even close.

Curious to hear Ozarktoms take on things. Tommy can you hear me?  :lol:

Thanks noway for the link! I appreciate you taking time to share that.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: rodge827 on 1 Jan 2015, 06:17 pm
Gents can speaker wire from the Crown be used on the High Input (speaker input) on a sub plate amp (Bash 300)?

Here's the reason why. I have a 2.2 set up and would like to jumper from the back of my monitors to the speaker input on the sub and eliminate a pair of sub IC's. Some amps are OK with this set up and some aren't due to the stereo amps grounding scheme. Any input would be appreciated.

Tomy don't worry I haven't tried it with your tour amp.  :lol:

Posting review tomorrow.  :D
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: rajacat on 1 Jan 2015, 06:30 pm
Would the XLS 1500 work well with a passive pre like the Tortuga?
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Folsom on 1 Jan 2015, 06:32 pm
They do, and active wouldn't change much unless it had gain. What's your output voltage for source? That is more important. I found 1.1v to be too little. I had the gain dials cranked up near max.

I'm not sure how big Tommy2Tone's room is, but he needs gain in his system. Also his source voltage?
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: rajacat on 1 Jan 2015, 06:38 pm
Output voltage is ~2.0V, so I guess I would be OK. I'm considering using the XLS to power TD15M midwoofers (98db) in an active setup.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Folsom on 1 Jan 2015, 06:49 pm
With that sensitivity you'd probably be fine with 1.1v source.

I think they're a superb choice for subwoofers. I can't imagine ever spending the same dough on a plate amplifier instead.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: roscoeiii on 1 Jan 2015, 07:13 pm
Would the XLS 1500 work well with a passive pre like the Tortuga?

In theory 2V should work,  but it has seemed to me that a hotter source,  with the XLS gain turned down seemed to be a better arrangement in my system. But that could just be my system. I am on the Tortuga tour,  so I can report back when it gets to me.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: a.wayne on 1 Jan 2015, 08:17 pm
With that sensitivity you'd probably be fine with 1.1v source.

I think they're a superb choice for subwoofers. I can't imagine ever spending the same dough on a plate amplifier instead.


Agree .....
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: OzarkTom on 1 Jan 2015, 09:23 pm
Heading home from vacation today. I am anxious to get my system going again. :thumb:

And Happy New Year everyone. My wife and I rang in the New Year last night dancing to the Beatles.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: rajacat on 1 Jan 2015, 10:27 pm
In theory 2V should work,  but it has seemed to me that a hotter source,  with the XLS gain turned down seemed to be a better arrangement in my system. But that could just be my system. I am on the Tortuga tour,  so I can report back when it gets to me.
Excellent, I will be looking forward to your report.
Hmm...maybe I should get on the tour. :scratch: Is it still open?
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: DaveC113 on 1 Jan 2015, 11:14 pm
Ok, I received my two Crown 1500's yesterday from Salis and have been running them since I put them back in my setup.

I'm going to have to refer to Ozarktom for any direct comparisons with the Salis mod vs one of his dozen or so stock Crowns.  :)

It's been two weeks or so since I last had them and I've changed a few things around. Like different speakers and implementing a tubed pre. But I'll give a comparison between speakers and amps here for a reference.

My setup before consisted of a pair of Salk Songtowers with a DSPeaker Dual Core 2.0 as a dac/pre and Crown 1500's in bridged mode. I also used a Job 225 and a Aluminatti X2 in and out trying to figure what amp I thought worked best. The Songtowers are the standard dome version and really sang with all three amps. The Crowns really opened things up a gave a lot of dynamics in all types of music, I was impressed from the moment I heard them. It was a forward sounding presentation but if I had to nitpick I would say things sounded a little on the thin side but only in comparison to the X2. I probably would be happy if I had just the Crowns with the Songtowers. The X2 was incredibly clear and very neutral sounding and less forward but I would say lacked a little soul and body that the Job provided. The Job I think matched up best with the Songtowrs with offering incredible bass performance and a natural voice to female and male alike. It just seemed right.

Now on to the Soundscape 8's that I just picked up while the Crowns were off to Salis for the mods. The room I'm using is not ideal at the moment and is just temporary until I move later in the new year so bear with me. The Songtowers I thought did really well in this room that is about 12' by 13'. I took them down in an effort to get some time with the Soundscapes before the move. They have the accuton mid with a raal ribbon tweeter and two 8" bass drivers. So just a little different midrange than the Songtowers as well as the bass.

When I first hooked everything up I had the Job in the mix to see if it could drive the 8's. Everything I loved about the Job with the Songtowers was just blah with the 8's. From what I've read the Job is about 180 to 200 watts per channel in 4 ohm speakers so I knew I wasn't getting a whole heck of a lot but it was something. The Job actually sounded lean and kind of lifeless as compared to what it did before. The X2 didn't fair much better but was more enjoyable to listen to than the Job. It's pushing 500 watts per channel in 4 ohm speakers. I decided to pull out a Rogue Perseus tubed pre I've had for a while to see if it could add some spark to the mix. It definitely added some warmth and personality to the situation but I was still not enthused with how everything sounded. I kept saying it's probably the room not letting the SS8's strut their stuff but I was going to wait and see if the Crowns could add anything that was missing.

As soon as I hooked up the Crowns yesterday I had the gain set at 3 o'clock like I did with the Songtowers but in this case I was getting a very high noise floor in combination with the Perseus. Remeber this is in bridged mode giving 1500 watts per channel! I fiddled back and forth for a while on what seemed best and found the Crowns set at 1 o'clock with the DSPeaker maxed out and the Perseus being the main volume control. First thing I noticed was how crystal clear the sound was and being extremely smooth at the same time. Not thin sounding at all! Dynamics and punch with authoritative bass like I expected from these speakers Everything just came to life and I'm amazed I'm getting this good of a sound considering the room isn't the best for these SS8's.

The tubed pre and the Crowns seem to be a great match and I'm looking at sending in the Perseus for a "Magnum" upgrade. The Crowns sound so good I might wait a while before trying another amp and instead look at a Lampizator dac or something.  I'll let these Crowns run for a while before considering getting them the cryo treatment. I know this is long winded but thought it could be useful.

Wow, that's great the Crowns are providing that kind of performance with your new speakers!  :thumb: Some speakers just love powerful amps, the more the better. I would not be without a tube preamp, it's the cornerstone of my system and plays a large part in how it sounds.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Folsom on 1 Jan 2015, 11:48 pm
I use to think they needed high power, then I found out it's coincidental due to a few things. Watts are watts, but only if and when they get to the speaker. However depending on the amp, they give a different impression of volume purely by perception. 8w tube amp that somehow can blow your ear drums, but you've got 250w SS to replace it?

The rule of thumb in general is that you need bigger amps in most situations, but it isn't true for the reason we like to think.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Tomy2Tone on 2 Jan 2015, 12:05 am
I would not be without a tube preamp, it's the cornerstone of my system and plays a large part in how it sounds.

It makes me wonder if I should put more thought in getting another tube pre or not. Been looking at Melody PB 101 and some from Line Magnetic that look awesome but would be 5 times the cost of the Crowns. If there is a tube pre at the performance value and price of the Crowns I wonder what it is.

Warm and lush while being detailed and transparent is what seems to be the traits of some of these tube pre's, sure would like to find out if that's true.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: OzarkTom on 2 Jan 2015, 12:15 am
It makes me wonder if I should put more thought in getting another tube pre or not. Been looking at Melody PB 101 and some from Line Magnetic that look awesome but would be 5 times the cost of the Crowns. If there is a tube pre at the performance value and price of the Crowns I wonder what it is.

Warm and lush while being detailed and transparent is what seems to be the traits of some of these tube pre's, sure would like to find out if that's true.

Cryo'd Itube plus Astron 9v power supply with Reality Cables power cord will set you back about 500 bucks. This is a killer combo with the Crown XLS.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Folsom on 2 Jan 2015, 12:18 am
It makes me wonder if I should put more thought in getting another tube pre or not. Been looking at Melody PB 101 and some from Line Magnetic that look awesome but would be 5 times the cost of the Crowns. If there is a tube pre at the performance value and price of the Crowns I wonder what it is.

Warm and lush while being detailed and transparent is what seems to be the traits of some of these tube pre's, sure would like to find out if that's true.

You need gain though, correct? There's a guy on DIYaudio that makes a crazy good buffer that's ignored largely. It has a certain pleasant sound due to the way it uses an inductor in it.

You might be able to make it sound warmer by putting a resistor inline near the amp. It increases the 2nd harmonic distortion and therefor warmth.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Tomy2Tone on 2 Jan 2015, 12:22 am
Cryo'd Itube plus Astron 9v power supply with Reality Cables power cord will set you back about 500 bucks. This is a killer combo with the Crown XLS.

I have an itube I use at work. I was thinking if or when I decide to send in the crowns for the cryo treatment I would send the itube along with them.

Do they still make that Astron 9v or do you have to find a used one on eBay? I think I've looked before but couldn't find one.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: a.wayne on 2 Jan 2015, 12:27 am
I use to think they needed high power, then I found out it's coincidental due to a few things. Watts are watts, but only if and when they get to the speaker. However depending on the amp, they give a different impression of volume purely by perception. 8w tube amp that somehow can blow your ear drums, but you've got 250w SS to replace it?

The rule of thumb in general is that you need bigger amps in most situations, but it isn't true for the reason we like to think.


The Peak Power Demands of Well-recorded Music:


This attention-getting demonstration made many participants think twice about how much amplifier power is needed for the reproduction of well-recorded music that has good dynamic range.

Participants in this workshop were able to see in real time the very high peak-to-average power ratio (crest factor) of music while they were listening to it. The high crest factor of well-recorded music can place very high peak-power demands on a power amplifier even at modest listening levels when loudspeakers of average efficiency are employed. This workshop demonstrated why high-power amplifiers sometimes sound better. Amplifiers may clip more often than we think.

This demonstration was a real "Wow" for the attendees. The Rickie Lee Jones (RLJ) cut was played at realistic, but certainly not unpleasant, levels in the relatively small hotel exhibit room on speakers with an estimated sensitivity of about 89 dB. The average power typically read 1-2 Watts, while the power on peaks often topped 250 Watts (the power display monitored only one channel, so these numbers should be interpreted as Watts per channel). On this cut, most peaks occurred with an aggressive "thwack" to a snare drum positioned dead center. - Bob Cordell


http://www.cordellaudio.com/he2007/show_report.shtml

   

Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Tomy2Tone on 2 Jan 2015, 12:28 am
You need gain though, correct? There's a guy on DIYaudio that makes a crazy good buffer that's ignored largely. It has a certain pleasant sound due to the way it uses an inductor in it.

You might be able to make it sound warmer by putting a resistor inline near the amp. It increases the 2nd harmonic distortion and therefor warmth.

Does he make them to sell or just shows you how to diy?
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: DaveC113 on 2 Jan 2015, 12:32 am
It makes me wonder if I should put more thought in getting another tube pre or not. Been looking at Melody PB 101 and some from Line Magnetic that look awesome but would be 5 times the cost of the Crowns. If there is a tube pre at the performance value and price of the Crowns I wonder what it is.

Warm and lush while being detailed and transparent is what seems to be the traits of some of these tube pre's, sure would like to find out if that's true.

I've found a tubed pre can be warm and still retain detail and transparency, but I'm not sure it can very affordable because of the parts costs involved. Good volume controls are expensive, so are good input/output jacks, caps or transformers, source switches, etc... it'll all add up to be fairly expensive.

The itube does seem pretty cool, but a bit limited in some ways.


Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Folsom on 2 Jan 2015, 12:34 am
Does he make them to sell or just shows you how to diy?

He builds for people sometimes, but often just the circuit board essentially. I can put you in contact with him, PM me.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: OzarkTom on 2 Jan 2015, 12:42 am

Do they still make that Astron 9v or do you have to find a used one on eBay? I think I've looked before but couldn't find one.

You have to call Astron direct and order SL-11 and have them mod it, cost 95 bucks plus shipping. Cryoman sells that power cord for 65 bucks. These mods improves the Itube by at last 200%.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Folsom on 2 Jan 2015, 12:47 am
That's a lot of money for an Astron.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Tomy2Tone on 2 Jan 2015, 12:48 am
You have to call Astron direct and order SL-11 and have them mod it, cost 95 bucks plus shipping. Cryoman sells that power cord for 65 bucks. These mods improves the Itube by at last 200%.

Nice. I'm looking forward to your feedback on the Salis mod vs stock as well as the cryo version. Now a Salis mod plus cryo is still yet to be heard so it'll be interesting who gets it first.

Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: OzarkTom on 2 Jan 2015, 12:50 am
That's a lot of money for an Astron.

For the DIY'ers, just mod a used 12v Astron for 9V.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Folsom on 2 Jan 2015, 12:55 am
I'd just use something else (http://www.teddypardo.com/powersupplies/teddy9-2.html) all together at line level. There's lots of things out there.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: OzarkTom on 2 Jan 2015, 01:07 am
I'd just use something else (http://www.teddypardo.com/powersupplies/teddy9-2.html) all together at line level. There's lots of things out there.

So $95 is too much but $369 is not? :scratch:
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Folsom on 2 Jan 2015, 01:23 am
So $95 is too much but $369 is not? :scratch:

I thought it was $95 on top of the original $100~

Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: OzarkTom on 2 Jan 2015, 01:39 am
In Texas, here are two 1500's for $175 each.

http://killeen.craigslist.org/for/4777424086.html
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: roscoeiii on 2 Jan 2015, 02:03 am
Cryo'd Itube plus Astron 9v power supply with Reality Cables power cord will set you back about 500 bucks. This is a killer combo with the Crown XLS.

I like that these things can be done incrementally.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Folsom on 2 Jan 2015, 02:35 am

This demonstration was a real "Wow" for the attendees. The Rickie Lee Jones (RLJ) cut was played at realistic, but certainly not unpleasant, levels in the relatively small hotel exhibit room on speakers with an estimated sensitivity of about 89 dB. The average power typically read 1-2 Watts, while the power on peaks often topped 250 Watts (the power display monitored only one channel, so these numbers should be interpreted as Watts per channel). On this cut, most peaks occurred with an aggressive "thwack" to a snare drum positioned dead center. - Bob Cordell
 

I just ordered the CD but... Obviously a lot of that wattage is speaker compression, and this kind of huge disparity tells us that most of us listen to some clipping pretty much all the time. Perceived sense of the music is a bit different than just the SPL/watt reading.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: a.wayne on 2 Jan 2015, 05:20 am
Notice the avg din was @ 1-2 watts and yes most are listening to soft compressed dynamics and speed .........
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: JohanH on 2 Jan 2015, 05:41 am


This demonstration was a real "Wow" for the attendees. The Rickie Lee Jones (RLJ) cut was played at realistic, but certainly not unpleasant, levels in the relatively small hotel exhibit room on speakers with an estimated sensitivity of about 89 dB. The average power typically read 1-2 Watts, while the power on peaks often topped 250 Watts (the power display monitored only one channel, so these numbers should be interpreted as Watts per channel). On this cut, most peaks occurred with an aggressive "thwack" to a snare drum positioned dead center. - Bob Cordell


http://www.cordellaudio.com/he2007/show_report.shtml

 

Wow indeed.
That album (Flying Cowboys) has a max DR value of 24.
Only the original Geffen release is mentioned in the DR Database; I have a 2010 remaster that most likely is compressed so just for fun I'll get the Geffen version and compare.

Edit: the remaster is slightly compressed. Max DR is 22, album is 16
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Jazzaudio on 2 Jan 2015, 06:48 am
I'm happy others hear the baseline sound I hear with the Crowns (or vice versa, since I'm new to this particular circle!)  Especially with so many different speakers, cables, sources, rooms, etc.  I'm using a modified Jolida JD100 CDP, with output "> 2V, 47 Kohms," directly into the XLS1500, with the amp gain levels at 10 o'clock.  With 94.5 db Omega speakers I'm getting deep layered clarity and sometimes shocking dynamics and fullness in my roughly 24x20x10 room.  While I could adjust the gain levels, for some reason I don't.  I haven't heard anything that was so quiet I had to increase the gain , but at the same time I'm amazed at the variance in recording levels on discs.

On a side note, the Lady overheard me discussing the lack of remote volume control and muting in my system, and asked what was the problem.  I explained I had to pause the CDP via remote when the phone rang, doorbell rang, something popped up on TV that interested me, etc.  She said wouldn't it be just as good to pause the CDP and pick-up the music exactly where I left off, instead of muting or turning down the preamp volume and letting the music continue  to play while I was preoccupied with something else?  Initially I thought this was a preemptive strike against me experimenting with a dedicated preamp.   But then I thought about what she said...LOL   :icon_surprised:           
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: OzarkTom on 2 Jan 2015, 04:20 pm
It looks like Harman will be exhibiting at Hard Rock Hotel & Casino Las Vegas at the CES show next week if anyone here is going. Harman is sponsoring a live concert of KISS at the show.

http://news.harman.com/Press-Releases/HARMAN-to-Crank-Up-the-Volume-at-CES-203.aspx
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Tomy2Tone on 2 Jan 2015, 04:47 pm
I'm happy others hear the baseline sound I hear with the Crowns (or vice versa, since I'm new to this particular circle!)  Especially with so many different speakers, cables, sources, rooms, etc.  I'm using a modified Jolida JD100 CDP, with output "> 2V, 47 Kohms," directly into the XLS1500, with the amp gain levels at 10 o'clock.  With 94.5 db Omega speakers I'm getting deep layered clarity and sometimes shocking dynamics and fullness in my roughly 24x20x10 room.  While I could adjust the gain levels, for some reason I don't.  I haven't heard anything that was so quiet I had to increase the gain , but at the same time I'm amazed at the variance in recording levels on discs.

On a side note, the Lady overheard me discussing the lack of remote volume control and muting in my system, and asked what was the problem.  I explained I had to pause the CDP via remote when the phone rang, doorbell rang, something popped up on TV that interested me, etc.  She said wouldn't it be just as good to pause the CDP and pick-up the music exactly where I left off, instead of muting or turning down the preamp volume and letting the music continue  to play while I was preoccupied with something else?  Initially I thought this was a preemptive strike against me experimenting with a dedicated preamp.   But then I thought about what she said...LOL   :icon_surprised:         

Hey Jazzaudio, thanks for sharing and welcome! If you ever do get a dedicated preamp please let us know how it mates with the rest of your system.

Have you tried different brands of tubes with your Jolida? After I get my Perseus back from being upgraded I'll probably look at doing some tube rolling.

Any other Crown owners out there feel free to come out the closet, it's ok we're all family here!  :D

If we can just find that Revel Salon owner from that Audioholics thread ( or whatever thread ) that would be neat.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: jk@home on 3 Jan 2015, 09:01 pm
To the folks out there who have added damping weight to the Crowns, what did you use, bags of sand? looking for something cheap and cheerful.   :)

I'm setting mine up now, used some sorbothane semi-spheres as feet. They are rated at 2-4 # each, and with the Crown weighing in at around 8-1/2 pounds, guess I can add about 6 more pounds to the top of the chassis or where ever.

Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: roscoeiii on 3 Jan 2015, 09:11 pm
To the folks out there who have added damping weight to the Crowns, what did you use, bags of sand? looking for something cheap and cheerful.   :)

I'm setting mine up now, used some sorbothane semi-spheres as feet. They are rated at 2-4 # each, and with the Crown weighing in at around 8-1/2 pounds, guess I can add about 6 more pounds to the top of the chassis or where ever.

I've got some Herbies Tenderfeet which work well. And Herbie has a good return policy if you don't like them.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: OzarkTom on 3 Jan 2015, 09:14 pm
To the folks out there who have added damping weight to the Crowns, what did you use, bags of sand? looking for something cheap and cheerful.   :)

I'm setting mine up now, used some sorbothane semi-spheres as feet. They are rated at 2-4 # each, and with the Crown weighing in at around 8-1/2 pounds, guess I can add about 6 more pounds to the top of the chassis or where ever.

 I used the two end weights of of a barbell hand weight. Total weight of those were 5 pounds. Cryoman used 7.5 pounds of lead shot.

Look inside your tackle box and see if you have any lead lying in there. :D
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Folsom on 3 Jan 2015, 09:16 pm
Mechanical dampening is good, electrical is better  8)
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Tomy2Tone on 3 Jan 2015, 09:16 pm
To the folks out there who have added damping weight to the Crowns, what did you use, bags of sand? looking for something cheap and cheerful.   :)

I'm setting mine up now, used some sorbothane semi-spheres as feet. They are rated at 2-4 # each, and with the Crown weighing in at around 8-1/2 pounds, guess I can add about 6 more pounds to the top of the chassis or where ever.

I think anything that can distribute the weight works. It even helps having some weight on top of the speakers. I have Herbies sonic stabilizers but they aren't cheap but they are cheerful.  :D

I like using them because they are small and you can incrementally adjust the weight and see what is enough and what is too much. A while ago I had an extra barbell plate that was 10 lbs and it made my speakers sound really dead and lifeless. Put a few stabilizers on top and they have good clarity, put a couple more and the bass tightened up.

Something you can just play around with and see if it works for you or not. I think the guy that Ozarktom sent his Crown to for Cryo said 7 lbs worked really good.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: OzarkTom on 3 Jan 2015, 09:26 pm
And don't forget the moongel pads. $7 for six of them. And these beats everything out there at the moment, even stillpoints.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/RTOM-Moongel-Drum-Damper-Pad-Moongel-Drum-Damper-Pad-/171242036275?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item27ded21c33
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: rodge827 on 5 Jan 2015, 08:41 pm
Happy New Year! to all of the XLS owners and those of you who haven't been convinced to purchase one yet!

I'm done my listening and the tour amp will be delivered to mjosef tomorrow.

First, a big thank you to Tomy2Tone for his generosity in sending the amp on tour, and trusting that a bunch of half whit audiophools don't destroy it.  :D

I'll do my best to describe my experience with the XLS 1500, but since I'm not a pro writer please excuuz enie gramatik airers and the like.  :roll:

DISCLAIMER - I have not listened to the Ncores so there will be no comparison to them here!

System is as follows: 47 Labs Flatfish Transport>MSB Digital Director>Dspeaker Dual Core 2.0>iTube>XLS via XLR-RCS cable and Dual Core RCA out>RCA in on Subs, Speakers are Shelby+Kroll Nano Monitors with a matching pair of Woofer Monitors(subs)

Room 11w x 15l x 8h

Speakers are 8' apart and 4' into the room and I sit 8' away.

1) Did I like the amp? Yes

  It lived up to all the hype and I had the same experiences as others who have listened to it.

2) Would I recommend it to a friend? Yes

For the cost and the ability to return it...its a no brainer!
 
3) Does it have balls? Yes

My speakers are 86db into 6ohm and drop off very steeply at 100hz (24db slope I think). I have had them singing on as little as 8w, but sound best with about 25w. The XLS drove them nicely and with loads of headroom to control the drivers very precisely. 

4) Can it convey the delicate nuances like air, creaky floors, the ladies having a conversation near the recording mic  :roll:, mic bumps, finger plucks, breathing...Yes

I like to listen to live music more than studio stuff, but the XLS is so clear that you get that feeling of (Warning! Overused Audio Cliche's About To Be Written) musicians are "in the room" with you. Hall echos, depth, height and voices very real in tonal balance. Some over produced stuff (Diana Krall) sounds that way while the better older live recordings (Bill Evans Live At The Village Vanguard) offer up that "you are there" experience. (OK that was 2 audio cliche's..Deal with it  :D)

5) Is this the best amp I have ever listened to? No

 But it is darn close! The amp I would really like to have in my system would run in the 20k range and being that this amp is about $400.00 methinks I can seriously live with it!  :thumb:

6) Will I buy this amp? Yep already did!

 Was lucky enough to find one for sale about 20 miles from home and purchased it on New Years Eve...Happy New Year to me!

In conclusion the Crown XLS is a winner!

I did use a custom Mosfet amp before the XLS and though it was all that and a bag of chips, but I was wrong! I don't like to admit that too often but things being as they are... :oops: 
With the XLS in my system the sound stage grew in depth and height and the detail was off the charts! Not some kind of fake detail with trumped up high frequencies but the detail that portray's the artist as human! I could here deeper into the little nuances that bring out a (Dare I say it?) 3D feel to the music. By nature my Shelby+Kroll monitors throw a big spooky sound-stage and image about the best I have ever heard. With the XLS in the chain all of the very good attributes to the S+K's were increased exponentially and then some. The XLS allowed me to listen to the true potential that my speakers were capable of.
As compared to the TBI amp the XLS completely out classed it!  Think of a fast food restaurant compared to a 5 star joint! White gloves, white linen, great ambiance and some seriously good service to accompany all the great flavors popping around your mouth! (Keep it clean here guys!)

Truth be told I was looking to get out of my audio hobby. I wasn't enjoying it any more and my system was sounding flat and uninteresting. I would listen occasionally, loose interest, turn it off and go to sleep. With the XLS that has all changed and I now have a verve for it again.

Poppa's got his groove back!

Chris

   



Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: wisnon on 5 Jan 2015, 08:47 pm
Nice Chris, I will print and read it now….
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Folsom on 5 Jan 2015, 09:00 pm
That's quiet the testimonial. OzarkTom, you get any listening in yet?! I wish the one with a mod could follow the tour.

I've just finished (or about to ship off) the 4th one I've got my hands on. It was a XLS2000, not the XLS1500.

It's pretty much the same amp, with literally just more parts of the same; and bigger output inductors. There's more drive chips, more capacitance in the PFC section, and some extra PCB waste land between input and front end.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: roscoeiii on 5 Jan 2015, 09:13 pm


In conclusion the Crown XLS is a winner!

I did use a custom Mosfet amp before the XLS and though it was all that and a bag of chips, but I was wrong! I don't like to admit that too often but things being as they are... :oops: 
With the XLS in my system the sound stage grew in depth and height and the detail was off the charts! Not some kind of fake detail with trumped up high frequencies but the detail that portray's the artist as human! I could here deeper into the little nuances that bring out a (Dare I say it?) 3D feel to the music. By nature my Shelby+Kroll monitors throw a big spooky sound-stage and image about the best I have ever heard. With the XLS in the chain all of the very good attributes to the S+K's were increased exponentially and then some. The XLS allowed me to listen to the true potential that my speakers were capable of.
As compared to the TBI amp the XLS completely out classed it!  Think of a fast food restaurant compared to a 5 star joint! White gloves, white linen, great ambiance and some seriously good service to accompany all the great flavors popping around your mouth! (Keep it clean here guys!)

Truth be told I was looking to get out of my audio hobby. I wasn't enjoying it any more and my system was sounding flat and uninteresting. I would listen occasionally, loose interest, turn it off and go to sleep. With the XLS that has all changed and I now have a verve for it again.

Poppa's got his groove back!

Chris

   

Great to hear Chris. Was particularly interested to hear your thoughts on how it imaged. Good to hear that it worked for you in that respect. My current set up isn't one in which soundstaging is going to be much good, regardless of the amp being used.

As I indicated in my mad-scientist proposal for a chain of gear, I'm thinking about the iTube. if it is easy to arrange, how does the system sound with and without the iTube in the chain?
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: rodge827 on 5 Jan 2015, 09:36 pm
I'm thinking about the iTube. if it is easy to arrange, how does the system sound with and without the iTube in the chain?

Roscoe, the iTube was in play the whole time and I never thought to take it out. A while back I did try the TBI amp without the iTube and thought the sound was aweful! Flat, uninteresting, harsh, and closed in. I use the iTube as a buffer with no gain, my guess is that it lowers the impedance so that the Dual Core and XLS "mate" together better?
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Tomy2Tone on 5 Jan 2015, 09:51 pm
Excellent job Chris!!! :bowdown:

Sounds like it was worth the wait! Thanks for sharing and passing it on to mjosef.

Salis- I agree, it would be nice to have an XLS with your mod follow the tour! Mine keeps sounding better by the day!



Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Folsom on 5 Jan 2015, 09:53 pm
Excellent job Chris!!! :bowdown:

Sounds like it was worth the wait! Thanks for sharing and passing it on to mjosef.

Salis- I agree, it would be nice to have an XLS with your mod follow the tour! Mine keeps sounding better by the day!

That's good to hear. That means the capacitors are improving, but also those CMC's in the filter will improve a tiny bit over a long period of time.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: rodge827 on 5 Jan 2015, 09:55 pm


Salis- I agree, it would be nice to have an XLS with your mod follow the tour! Mine keeps sounding better by the day!

Put me on the list!  :D
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Folsom on 5 Jan 2015, 10:04 pm
See if you can pry it from OzarkTom's system :lol:
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: rodge827 on 5 Jan 2015, 10:11 pm
Hearing the Mission Impossible theme in my head...and it's getting louder!
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: John Casler on 5 Jan 2015, 10:22 pm
The cryo amp is not here yet. But what made a big difference tonight was putting a moongel pad on top of each cedar ring and weighing the amp down. I sat two 2.5 pound barbell weights on top, that made quite a bit of an improvement in the detail area. Even the volume seemed to have gone up slightly.

I do this quite often with my gear, but prefer the RUBBER COATED Steel Olympic Plates as they damp the ringing resonance of "steel only" plates.

NOT Rubber Bumper Plates which are Rubber only.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: OzarkTom on 5 Jan 2015, 10:43 pm
See if you can pry it from OzarkTom's system :lol:

First, heading for the Cryoman tomorrow.

And Chris is not a reviewer? He will probably get a call later this week from one of the online review mags offering him a job.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: jk@home on 5 Jan 2015, 10:48 pm
Sounds like the tour amp is good and broke in. Anyone want to guess how many hours are on it now?

Rodge were you feeding a single ended or balanced input into the Crown? Right now breaking mine in with Mogami balanced cables and short speaker wire. And where did you have the amp gain setting.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: steve f on 5 Jan 2015, 11:17 pm
If Salis sends a modified Crown following the tour amps, can I be added to that part of the tour? I'd love to compare one to my stock XLS amps.

Steve
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Folsom on 5 Jan 2015, 11:18 pm
I don't own one.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: OzarkTom on 5 Jan 2015, 11:30 pm
I do this quite often with my gear, but prefer the RUBBER COATED Steal Olympic Plates as they damp the ringing resonance of "steel only" plates.

NOT Rubber Bumper Plates which are Rubber only.

I was thinking about melting some of my moongel pats and coating the steel plates with that. But  that would probably stink my wife out of the house. So I will hunt down some of the rubber coated ones instead.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: rodge827 on 5 Jan 2015, 11:41 pm
Sounds like the tour amp is good and broke in. Anyone want to guess how many hours are on it now?

Rodge were you feeding a single ended or balanced input into the Crown? Right now breaking mine in with Mogami balanced cables and short speaker wire. And where did you have the amp gain setting.

I had it on the Isotec Rejuvenation Disc the whole time, except when I was listening to music, so I guess it is pretty well broken in.

Single ended into the Crown and the gain setting was one back from full gain. It was the only way I could match the gain to the sub amp. Any less than that and there was a serious tonal imbalance.

Chris
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: OzarkTom on 5 Jan 2015, 11:54 pm
I had it on the Isotec Rejuvenation Disc the whole time, except when I was listening to music, so I guess it is pretty well broken in.

Single ended into the Crown and the gain setting was one back from full gain. It was the only way I could match the gain to the sub amp. Any less than that and there was a serious tonal imbalance.

Chris

Using a sub amp and sub? Try the high pass crossover set at about 100-125 and see if that sounds better. Also, cut off the clipping circuit on the amp if you have not tried that yet.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Tomy2Tone on 6 Jan 2015, 12:13 am
And Chris is not a reviewer? He will probably get a call later this week from one of the online review mags offering him a job.

That's what I was thinking.

We can call him "The Amp Whisperer".  :lol:
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: jk@home on 6 Jan 2015, 12:26 am
I had it on the Isotec Rejuvenation Disc the whole time, except when I was listening to music, so I guess it is pretty well broken in.

Single ended into the Crown and the gain setting was one back from full gain. It was the only way I could match the gain to the sub amp. Any less than that and there was a serious tonal imbalance.

Chris

Thanks. I trimmed mine back to 9:00 as other here have recommended. There was some discussion of reducing the full output of the amp by doing this. But my speakers are only rated for 100 watts, so I figure it is a GOOD thing that I reduce the max bridge output down a quarter. :D

Now I could of sworn I read on the Crown forum somewhere that a factory rep stated if the input control is set too low, there will be added "reverberation". Don't hear it with my system, maybe it is a live sound problem? I do suspect that the input controls of the two amps may not be perfectly equal, but I can adjust that issue with the preamp (after break-in).

After mine is broken in (probably a good month from now), I will try SE vs balanced.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: DaveC113 on 6 Jan 2015, 01:04 am

Truth be told I was looking to get out of my audio hobby. I wasn't enjoying it any more and my system was sounding flat and uninteresting. I would listen occasionally, loose interest, turn it off and go to sleep. With the XLS that has all changed and I now have a verve for it again.

Poppa's got his groove back!

Chris


Thanks for the review Chris!  :thumb:

I've waffled back and forth over the years, I never stop listening to music but there's been times I wan not actively trying to improve my system. I have found that if a system doesn't "draw you in" in some way you can lose enthusiasm for improving it, and on the other end if it's fatiguing you generally turn down the volume and it ceases to draw you in anymore because it may be good, but if it's harsh it won't work either.

When you get it right it's very encouraging though  :green:  I look forward to listening to music a lot more and stay much more interested in continuing the neverending upgrade process.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: rodge827 on 6 Jan 2015, 02:12 am
A big factor in my system/listening discouragement is the room I'm in. I had a larger very good sounding room that I lost in Hurricane Sandy. I went from a 15.5'w x 21'l x 8.5'h to the room I'm in now. I had tried many things to get the room to sound better and it became more work than fun. It sounded OK but the engagement factor was missing, I found myself listening too hard and not allowing the music to take over.
I knew the Crown was special from the first few bars and from there the rest kinda fell into place. I had the speakers closer together with the Mosfet amp since the sound stage would collapse when further apart. I moved the speakers from 6'9" to 8'4" apart and that's when the magic really started to happen. The speakers completely disappeared and the HDW increased dramatically. John Coltrane's sax came from a little on the inside and behind the left speaker on "Freddy The Freeloader", Cassandra Wilson's "Children Of The Night" blew me away with all of the crazy Afro Beat layering and when her voice came in I, for the first time, truly understood her amazing artistry! I have listened to "Blue Moon Daughter" soo many times as a reference disc and yesterday I finally got her!

Thank you Harman for designing a low cost, exceptionally sounding, ugly as sin, digital amplifier!
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: JDUBS on 6 Jan 2015, 02:28 am
Guys, has anyone confirmed if these amps are converting to digital and then back to analog again?  I'm guessing that's probably what's going on given the crossover functionality.

But DO want to confirm.

-Jim
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: jk@home on 6 Jan 2015, 02:29 am
Thank you Harman for designing a low cost, exceptionally sounding, ugly as sin, digital amplifier!

One of the reasons I went with two Crowns was to hide them behind the mid-bass subs, facing towards the front wall. Don't care how they look now as I can't see them from the chair.  :thumb:

(http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/640x480q90/901/1CEswC.jpg)
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Folsom on 6 Jan 2015, 04:22 am
Guys, has anyone confirmed if these amps are converting to digital and then back to analog again?  I'm guessing that's probably what's going on given the crossover functionality.

But DO want to confirm.

-Jim

I'll take a closer look, but it seems highly unlikely. Others have said no. It'd be hard to explain why single ended has such a low level if it were true.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Folsom on 6 Jan 2015, 04:24 am
One of the reasons I went with two Crowns was to hide them behind the mid-bass subs, facing towards the front wall. Don't care how they look now as I can't see them from the chair.  :thumb:

(http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/640x480q90/901/1CEswC.jpg)

That's what I've been thinking. How's the articulation with a bass driver? I imagine very good.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: JDUBS on 6 Jan 2015, 04:33 am
I'll take a closer look, but it seems highly unlikely. Others have said no. It'd be hard to explain why single ended has such a low level if it were true.

I would be VERY interested to hear what you find out.  I guess I just don't understand the crossover functionality if the input isn't converted to digital first.

Thanks for looking into it.

-Jim
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Folsom on 6 Jan 2015, 04:40 am
It's hard to read the chips, and some might be proprietary. Active crossovers aren't new, however, so I'm not surprised if it remains analog like others have said.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: jk@home on 6 Jan 2015, 12:19 pm
That's what I've been thinking. How's the articulation with a bass driver? I imagine very good.

Actually I'm using the Crowns to drive the KEF LS50s. The two 12" mid bass subs plus 4 more AE IB15 drivers in the ceiling are all driven be Yamaha P3500S amps in a closet on the front wall. The Yamahas are fine for the subs, but given the choice now, I would of gone all Crown.

Regarding the Crowns, even with hardly no hours of breakin, the new setup of using an active high gain preamp driving balanced cables to the bridged 1500s is much better than what I remember when I tried a single amp with a single ended passive pre back in October. If these smooth out just a touch after the breakin period, I will be a happy camper.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: rodge827 on 6 Jan 2015, 12:55 pm
They will smooth out the Tour amp was very smooth top to bottom.

What active preamp are you using?
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: rodge827 on 6 Jan 2015, 01:07 pm
Gents, I'm thinking of getting a tube preamp and running my Dual Core on an input similar to what Tomy2Tone is doing.

Would this preamp be a good choice for the Crown XLS amplifier as far as impedance matching and output?

http://www.transcendentsound.com/Transcendent/Masterpiece.html


(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=112029)


(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=112030)

Chris


Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: steve f on 6 Jan 2015, 01:37 pm
Yes, it will work fine.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: jk@home on 6 Jan 2015, 02:06 pm
They will smooth out the Tour amp was very smooth top to bottom.

What active preamp are you using?

NuForce MCP-18.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Tomy2Tone on 6 Jan 2015, 02:41 pm
Gents, I'm thinking of getting a tube preamp and running my Dual Core on an input similar to what Tomy2Tone is doing.

Would this preamp be a good choice for the Crown XLS amplifier as far as impedance matching and output?

http://www.transcendentsound.com/Transcendent/Masterpiece.html

Nice find Chris! When I first saw it I thought it was something from China, but looks like its right here from the good ole USofA.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: guest61169 on 6 Jan 2015, 03:12 pm
...Would this preamp be a good choice for the Crown XLS amplifier as far as impedance matching and output?

http://www.transcendentsound.com/Transcendent/Masterpiece.html


(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=112029)


(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=112030)

Chris

Well, I can't seem to see any numbers for output impedance anywhere, other than for the headphone jack.  Plus it's a kit and it's $1000 including tubes and resale value will be very low because it's a kit and because it is very homemade looking.   With power amplifiers you are better leaving the power amp on 24/7 and I wouldn't do that with a tube preamp so that would mean (for me) having to switch the power amp off before the preamp (good practice to avoid power switch noise).  Also the power amp should be off before turning the preamp on again.  So you will need warm-up for both.  If you want a tube pre I would go with a popular make that has excellent build quality, resale value and looks.  Like used Audio Research, Sonic Frontiers, C-J, Quicksilver, etc.  But beware output impedance issues!

Frankly I think you would be better off with a solid state Headphone amp/pre with balanced outputs and leave it on all the time, along with the power amp.  Like a Benchmark, Bryston, Wyred 4 Sound, etc.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: JDUBS on 6 Jan 2015, 03:38 pm
It's hard to read the chips, and some might be proprietary. Active crossovers aren't new, however, so I'm not surprised if it remains analog like others have said.

I reached out to Crown last night and this was the reply:

"Jim,

The DSP takes care of the crossover/filtering so, yes, the signal goes analogàdigital @ DSP for crossover à analog.

Regards,
Aaron "

Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: rodge827 on 6 Jan 2015, 03:56 pm
Well, I can't seem to see any numbers for output impedance anywhere, other than for the headphone jack.  Plus it's a kit and it's $1000 including tubes and resale value will be very low because it's a kit and because it is very homemade looking.   With power amplifiers you are better leaving the power amp on 24/7 and I wouldn't do that with a tube preamp so that would mean (for me) having to switch the power amp off before the preamp (good practice to avoid power switch noise).  Also the power amp should be off before turning the preamp on again.  So you will need warm-up for both.  If you want a tube pre I would go with a popular make that has excellent build quality, resale value and looks.  Like used Audio Research, Sonic Frontiers, C-J, Quicksilver, etc.  But beware output impedance issues!

Frankly I think you would be better off with a solid state Headphone amp/pre with balanced outputs and leave it on all the time, along with the power amp.  Like a Benchmark, Bryston, Wyred 4 Sound, etc.


Haven't purchased one and was looking for some feedback.
The Transcendent gear does hold its value about as good as the more popular "name brand" gear on the used market.
FWIW I like the idea of building a kit and dealing with innovative small companies. I feel that there is a better dollar to value ratio going in this direction.
Bruce has been around a long time and puts a lot of R&D in his products before he releases them.

I like how this preamp utilizes the 300b tube in the output stage. At one time I had a wonderful sounding 300b amp with some Lowther horns and liked how it conveyed music. Getting some 300b sweetness in my room could be a good thing. BTW the amp, preamp, and dac I had were all from ANKits. Unfortunately I had to sell them all due to a financial need.  :cry: 
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Tomy2Tone on 6 Jan 2015, 04:12 pm
Is there anything that has the 300b tube that comes anywhere near this price?
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: roscoeiii on 6 Jan 2015, 05:33 pm
I'd check with Bruce on the output impedance as a preamp. Tube preamps can have pretty high output impedance. Though the headphones impedance is a good sign.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: steve f on 6 Jan 2015, 08:13 pm
Output impedance is only 15 Ohms.

Do not worry about resale value. It's about the cost of the kits. You only lose your assembly time. Now go check the used market. TS gear is rarely up for sale. People keep them. If you are an impress your friends with fancy cases and cables kind of guy, this isn't for you. If you are about the music first, and appreciate good design, snap one up.

Stories: I took the older Transcendent Sound preamp to visit a speaker manufacturer. He ordered one.

At a well known fest, everybody stopped what they were doing to listen to the music.

At an audio store, an old friend and I brought my now modded preamp in to compare it to a top of the line unit by another company. After a couple of clients started asking me about it, the salesmen took it out of the system and asked me to put it back in my car.

And no I'm not a fanboy of any company.

Steve
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: DaveC113 on 6 Jan 2015, 08:22 pm
Looks like a nice preamp to me, 300Bs can sound great if the circuit design is good and judging from the measurements I'd bet it'll be great.

I also love my 6SN7 Aikido, you don't get a full kit but if you like selecting all your own parts and chassis it's a good option. I've compared it to some pricey gear and it holds up easily. It has a slightly modified white cathode follower output, it drives the Crowns with no problem and my subwoofer amp at the same time.

Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: steve f on 6 Jan 2015, 10:11 pm
Dave, That's a new preamp brand for me. Can you provide any info? And yes I agree with you that there is good stuff out there that is competitive with the "best" and affordable for a lot more music lovers.





Steve
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: a.wayne on 6 Jan 2015, 10:31 pm
Well, I can't seem to see any numbers for output impedance anywhere, other than for the headphone jack.  Plus it's a kit and it's $1000 including tubes and resale value will be very low because it's a kit and because it is very homemade looking.   With power amplifiers you are better leaving the power amp on 24/7 and I wouldn't do that with a tube preamp so that would mean (for me) having to switch the power amp off before the preamp (good practice to avoid power switch noise).  Also the power amp should be off before turning the preamp on again.  So you will need warm-up for both.  If you want a tube pre I would go with a popular make that has excellent build quality, resale value and looks.  Like used Audio Research, Sonic Frontiers, C-J, Quicksilver, etc.  But beware output impedance issues!

Frankly I think you would be better off with a solid state Headphone amp/pre with balanced outputs and leave it on all the time, along with the power amp.  Like a Benchmark, Bryston, Wyred 4 Sound, etc.


On the crown you can always turn the input gain to zero and turn pre off , you will be hard pressed to beat a GOOD tooby pre with an  SS pre-amp .... So i can understand sticking with one ....


Regards
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: DaveC113 on 6 Jan 2015, 10:36 pm
Sure, the Aikido is John Broski's design, here's his store:

http://glass-ware.stores.yahoo.net/index.html

I also use it as the drive stage for a pair of EL34s run in single ended triode mode, it makes for a great drive stage, much better than a typical single triode, even with a CCS load. It has enough gain for my system (barely) but a 6SL7 would make for a more normal amount of gain. The preamp/SET combo only has about 15 dB gain total, the preamp is 20 dB with 6SN7s. The amp is -5 dB because of the OPTs.

I compared my Aikido/EL34 SET to an Air Tight Pre / Fi 2a3 monoblock combination on Lamhorns and it resulted in the sale of the 2a3 amps...  :green:

noway, usually you do want the amp off when the preamp is turned on or off but the last couple tube pres I've had, including my Aikido, does not produce a spike on turn on/off so it's not strictly necessary. You could test by turning the gain on the Crown way down and see if there's a spike. Looks like a.wayne beat me to it...  :)

Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: JDUBS on 7 Jan 2015, 01:56 am
I guess I'm confused with worrying all that much about a tube pre ahead of this thing when the signals just getting converted to digital and then back to analog.

-Jim
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: steve f on 7 Jan 2015, 02:19 am
I'm not sure I understand it all either. Yes, the crossover appears to operate in the digital domain, but what about when crossover functions aren't used? I've been enjoying my XLS amps in "bypass" mode. So far, I haven't tried any of the available features.

Steve
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: JDUBS on 7 Jan 2015, 02:24 am
I'm not sure I understand it all either. Yes, the crossover appears to operate in the digital domain, but what about when crossover functions aren't used? I've been enjoying my XLS amps in "bypass" mode. So far, I haven't tried any of the available features.

Steve

I'd love to know if bypass modes goes around the unit's dsp altogether.  I'll ask the Crown techs.

-Jim
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: steve f on 7 Jan 2015, 05:36 am
The owners manual doesn't discuss bypass or monoblock when selected, the limiters are digital, but can be defeated. I look forward to what the Crown techs have to say.

Steve
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: guest61169 on 7 Jan 2015, 05:47 am
...Output impedance is only 15 Ohms....

That's not from the line outputs.  I bet it is in the high hundreds or low to mid thousands like most tube preamps.   And it changes with frequency.

...

noway, usually you do want the amp off when the preamp is turned on or off but the last couple tube pres I've had, including my Aikido, does not produce a spike on turn on/off so it's not strictly necessary. You could test by turning the gain on the Crown way down and see if there's a spike. Looks like a.wayne beat me to it...  :)

That might work depending on the preamp.  It goes against conventional wisdom but if it works it works.  Maybe just try it first with a cheap pair of speakers instead of expensive ones.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: steve f on 7 Jan 2015, 06:58 am
@noway. You are  mistaken. 15 Ohms is the correct number. It isn't posted on the spec sheet, but is mentioned  by the  designer in the forum pages concerning the preamp.

Steve

Edit: first post on  New product! Etc thread.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: guest61169 on 7 Jan 2015, 07:14 am
@noway. You are  mistaken. 15 Ohms is the correct number. It isn't posted on the spec sheet, but is mentioned  by the  designer in the forum pages concerning the preamp.

Steve

Edit: first post on  New product! Etc thread.

OK.  I'll see if I can find that.  Do you have a link?  I might even consider a tube pre if there is one that low.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: steve f on 7 Jan 2015, 07:22 am
My iPad sucks at posting links. Just go to the Transcendent Sound website forum. It's the first post of the second topic.

Steve
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: guest61169 on 7 Jan 2015, 07:28 am
Wow.  I just saw that.  That's a crazy low number he's quoting.  I'll have to look into that if I ever switch to a tube pre.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Alan on 7 Jan 2015, 10:41 am
Crown's website is acting funny. Any news from CES? See if this works...
http://www.crownaudio.com/row/amplifiers.html
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: OzarkTom on 7 Jan 2015, 11:26 am
Crown's website is acting funny. Any news from CES? See if this works...
http://www.crownaudio.com/row/amplifiers.html

I am certain that this is the website to watch for news from the CES show. Harman is introducing some new Revel speakers and a new Levinson amp.

http://news.harman.com/content/default.aspx?NewsAreaId=2
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: JDUBS on 7 Jan 2015, 04:05 pm
The owners manual doesn't discuss bypass or monoblock when selected, the limiters are digital, but can be defeated. I look forward to what the Crown techs have to say.

Steve

I asked about the conversion of the A->D and the D->A as well as if the DSP is bypass-able.  This is the response I got:

"The sampling rate is 48 kHz and is taking 24 bit samples. The conversion still takes place in Stereo Bypass mode."


That REALLY sucks!  I wouldn't bother spending big bucks on anything before this amp if its just going to get converted to digital and back to analog.

-Jim
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: rodge827 on 7 Jan 2015, 04:19 pm
Very interesting...I will try to borrow a quality tube preamp from a friend for comparison before I do anything different than how I'm currently set up.

Thanks for the post.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: DaveC113 on 7 Jan 2015, 04:48 pm

That REALLY sucks!  I wouldn't bother spending big bucks on anything before this amp if its just going to get converted to digital and back to analog.

-Jim

I disagree, and it's also possible the signal does not go D > A either. The amp is clean enough that it can resolve a good source.



Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: JDUBS on 7 Jan 2015, 05:05 pm
it's also possible the signal does not go D > A either

What do you mean?  I asked the Crown guys this specifically. 

-Jim
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: steve f on 7 Jan 2015, 05:08 pm
A 48K sampling rate with a 24 bit rate is something my cats can't hear, let alone me. I do get the purist approach though. The amps performance may be unaffected by conversion. We need a digital engineering guru to join in.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: srb on 7 Jan 2015, 06:13 pm
A 48K sampling rate with a 24 bit rate is something my cats can't hear, let alone me.

A 48KHz sampling rate can reproduce frequencies up to 24KHz.  Cats can hear up to 79KHz and dogs up to 44KHz.  ;)

Of course, not the point at all, but some of the same people who think this amplifier possesses some magic and 95% of the sound of much more expensive amplifiers with analog-only signal path also wouldn't even consider an Apple TV that resamples to 48KHz with no additional AD/DA conversion.

Interesting.

Steve
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Folsom on 7 Jan 2015, 06:48 pm
Hmm, well, I don't know why they didn't have a digital in! Or why single ended is so quiet.

It would explain why it's so sensitive to some power mods. If only the front end was more accessible, more might be done.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Folsom on 7 Jan 2015, 10:14 pm
TL494C at input
3x Mc33079DG
sn61112b5

Two proprietary chips to drive class D TO-220-3 looking chips.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: steve f on 7 Jan 2015, 10:21 pm
Now I know why our kittens can hear me pop open a pull tab off of their food cans, even if sleeping a couple of rooms away. They ignore other pop tops.

Steve
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: steve f on 7 Jan 2015, 10:27 pm
A digital in would be a nice addition.

Steve
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: DaveC113 on 7 Jan 2015, 11:00 pm
What do you mean?  I asked the Crown guys this specifically. 

-Jim

I wonder if it ever gets converted back to analog... they said it gets converted to digital for sure but did not specify there was a D > A conversion after that.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: JDUBS on 7 Jan 2015, 11:13 pm
I wonder if it ever gets converted back to analog... they said it gets converted to digital for sure but did not specify there was a D > A conversion after that.

I mean, I think it has to, right?  or there would be no sound.

-Jim
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Odal3 on 7 Jan 2015, 11:48 pm
+1 for digital in!

Found this on the crown forum from the forum admin:
"Well, if it's good sound you're looking for then the subject of AD/DA conversions have been beat to the ground, the recomendations are as follows:
At 48khz sampling rate, no more then one AD/DA conversion.
At 96khz sampling rate, no more then two AD/DA conversions.
At 192khz sampling rate, no more then four AD/DA conversions.
You will not be able to hear the difference even if you break these rules of thumb in A/B test unless you're a super audiophile."
http://www.crownaudio.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=4433

The forum post also has a recommendation for the older macrotech series as an alternative if no A/D conversion is desired:" They are compleatly analog and are of great quality, price/watt is also great". Has anyone heard one of those?

I had originally planned on getting a minidsp to use with the crown and other amps, but the above "rule" makes me think twice about that.

BTW: Regardless of what the specs says, I'm really enjoying the music from my Crown XLS 2000. I even got a set of speak-on, and I like them a lot!
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: rodge827 on 8 Jan 2015, 02:31 am
A digital in would be a nice addition.

Steve

Was thinking the same thing!
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: jk@home on 8 Jan 2015, 03:02 am

http://www.crownaudio.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=4433

 
BTW: Regardless of what the specs says, I'm really enjoying the music from my Crown XLS 2000. I even got a set of speak-on, and I like them a lot!

LOL, that OP is drilling the Crown rep for a recommendation of his competitor's amp. Cudos to the rep for his patients.

Extra conversion or not, the Crowns still sound great for the money spent.

Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Folsom on 8 Jan 2015, 06:00 am
The crown doesn't have to use standard conversions, either.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: mjosef on 8 Jan 2015, 06:44 am
I think the Crown "guy" might be mistaken...with my Xti, I can hear a distinct 'drop' in SQ with the DSP engaged(but with no specific EQ or other processing ie with a blank DSP setting/zero default) vs DSP Bypassed mode.
Unless the XLS does things differently, I would trust my own ears vs what some unverified Crown spokesman says.
And DSP means just that...Digital Signal Processing...tells you right there.  :oops:


3 days without internet access...so catching up.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Tomy2Tone on 8 Jan 2015, 09:08 pm
Just an update on where the tour is...and is going.


mjosef- Brooklyn

SteveFord- PA

jtsnead- MD

Freo-1- MA

Peter J- ID

S Clark- TX

gregfisk- WA

Bill of NY

Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: rodge827 on 8 Jan 2015, 09:49 pm
Sent the amp to mjosef today he will have it on Saturday. I tried to hand deliver it to him, but the snow and my schedule made that problematic. Missed the PO last night by a coupla minuets so it is off to him today.

Enjoy

Anyone in the S. Jersey area who would like to stop by for a listen is welcome to.
Send me a PM and we'll put something together.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: rajacat on 8 Jan 2015, 10:47 pm
 Anybody care to venture an opinion on how the XLS 1500 would stack up against the ClassDaudio SDS-258? They cost about the same (although the SDS258 is a kit) and have similar power output. The SDS-258 would probably be more suited to mods.
http://classdaudio.com/amplifier-kits/sds-258-kit.html
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: wushuliu on 8 Jan 2015, 10:57 pm
Anybody care to venture an opinion on how the XLS 1500 would stack up against the ClassDaudio SDS-258? They cost about the same (although the SDS258 is a kit) and have similar power output. The SDS-258 would probably be more suited to mods.
http://classdaudio.com/amplifier-kits/sds-258-kit.html

Based on the feedback for the xls my guess is they are opposites in presentation. The cds amps are smooth, laid back. The xls so far have not been described in any such or similar terms.

Just my .02
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Odal3 on 8 Jan 2015, 11:36 pm
I think the Crown "guy" might be mistaken...with my Xti, I can hear a distinct 'drop' in SQ with the DSP engaged(but with no specific EQ or other processing ie with a blank DSP setting/zero default) vs DSP Bypassed mode.
Unless the XLS does things differently, I would trust my own ears vs what some unverified Crown spokesman says.
And DSP means just that...Digital Signal Processing...tells you right there.  :oops:


3 days without internet access...so catching up.
Per this website, even the xti has the conversion in bypass mode. The link also shows some independent measurement of the xti and other amps for those interested. I don't have the knowledge to judge it for accuracy but still an interesting read.
http://www.abeltronics.co.uk/amptesting.php?z=crown_XTI-1000
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: a.wayne on 9 Jan 2015, 12:01 pm
The xti1000 is really a 4 ohm (min) load amplfier and with enough  power drop off at freq extreme tells me why it would sound forward in the mids and it does appear  digital processing  regardless of bypass or not,  due to the amt of phase shift at 10K ...
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: jk@home on 9 Jan 2015, 12:38 pm
With this talk of extra conversion, the preamp I'm using takes a SE input signal and outputs it both SE and balanced (with the use of balancing op amps). After doing some comparisons, I feel in my case I get better resolution using the SE inputs of the Crown, and shorter IC/longer speaker cables. FYI.

I have to run the preamp gain up a touch more, but having the Crown input knobs set at 12:oclock, am still getting almost no hiss out of the speakers. Inaudible > a foot from the drivers.

Also regarding power conditioners (which I don't have any at the moment). There is an old thread over on the AVS forum, of a Crown Drivecore review when they first came out. The OP stated that he was able to measure noise being outputted from the Crown into his ac power circuit. So is it possible that the Crowns themselves don't need power conditioning, but they need to be isolated from analog stuff? If so, how would this be achieved?

http://www.avsforum.com/forum/90-receivers-amps-processors/1295375-review-crown-new-drivecore-xls-1000-class-d-pro-amp.html (http://www.avsforum.com/forum/90-receivers-amps-processors/1295375-review-crown-new-drivecore-xls-1000-class-d-pro-amp.html)
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: maplegrovemusic on 9 Jan 2015, 05:20 pm
Wow , Just read the av forum thread link posted above . One guy was thrilled to pay around $1500 for a xls 1000 . What do they go for now ? LOL
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: jk@home on 9 Jan 2015, 05:38 pm
Wow , Just read the av forum thread link posted above . One guy was thrilled to pay around $1500 for a xls 1000 . What do they go for now ? LOL

I think he was referring to setting up a 7.1 HT system, which would require 8 or 9 channels, depending on if the Crown was also used for the sub(s). So that's 4 or 5 amps.   
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: OzarkTom on 10 Jan 2015, 10:58 pm
In case you need another XLS Roscoe, here is a 1500 for $200 in Chicago.

http://chicago.craigslist.org/chc/msg/4838840181.html
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: SlyFuu on 11 Jan 2015, 07:42 pm
Looks like it might be missing the gain knobs. Odd the seller never mentioned it.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: mjosef on 12 Jan 2015, 03:28 am
Per this website, even the xti has the conversion in bypass mode. The link also shows some independent measurement of the xti and other amps for those interested. I don't have the knowledge to judge it for accuracy but still an interesting read.
http://www.abeltronics.co.uk/amptesting.php?z=crown_XTI-1000

I see...a 2010 reference to the first generation XTi, I got the 1002 which is the 2nd generation and according to the pro-guys over at ProWeb the 2-series is way superior to the 1-series. Dust 2 ashes.
Regardless, lets 'talk' XLS...

Day One: XLS vs. Occam's NCore400.

FLatter, smaller soundstage vs the NCore. Bass sounded less defined, sustain shorter, dynamics less impactful vs NCore. Percussive 'strikes' were pretty good, stringed instruments were not as full-bodied as the NCore. Overall the NCore was in another league...like IMax vs regular production.
Best connections...balanced in, Speakon out.  RCA out from the source sounded better with an XLR adapter into the XLS vs the RCA in.
Powered via the Bypass outlet was preferred vs the isolated 15A outlet.

Occam's system: EAR Acute cd player> NCore>Martens Miles speaker. Powered by his Alchemist conditioner and Waveform Fidelity cabling. Isolation devices...Stillpoints and SYnergystics Research MiGs.


Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Occam on 12 Jan 2015, 05:20 am
What Martin said.....

That being said, the XLS amp is an excellent value and pretty darn good amp, leastwise through the Speakon speaker connectors. Subjectively those binding posts are anything but a clear window... Even through the Speakons, the amp had good resolution, but lacked the resolution of my Ncore. Like my smps powered Ncore 400, I also preferred the XLS with parallel  X capacitors, rather than a series inductive / parallel cap mains filter that typically works exceptionally well with a 150 wpc 'Blameless' Class A/AB stereo power amp.

IMO, the amp responded very positively to placement on a laminated bamboo board supported by Synergistic MIGs

Perhaps the increased power of larger versions of the XLS might address my bass extension/control concerns, as might monoblocking which might also improve the sound staging and imaging. (the XLS lacked perceived image density)

Great bang for the buck.

FWIW,
Paul

Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Folsom on 12 Jan 2015, 05:30 am
Paul, I'd like for you to hear a version with a dampened filter. Three CMC's in a row, in such a manner, will sing a tune that will degrade the playback substantially.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Russell Dawkins on 12 Jan 2015, 06:19 am
Paul (Occam) - did you buy a Crown, and if so, which model, if you don't mind?
I ask because I haven't been following this thread lately, and there are too many pages for casual perusal.

Thanks, Russell.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: mjosef on 12 Jan 2015, 06:31 am
No Russell, I took the tour amp over to Paul to compare it with his NCore.

Day Two. A couple hours ago I swapped the XLS in for my tube amp, using the same cabling RCA in, speaker bananas out, thought it sounded 'dull' , then I sub the RCA cable for my own RCA-XLR IC, small improvement but still blah...subbed in my SpeakOn-spade speaker cable, and wow, big improvement. THose banana posts on the XLS are truly a detriment to the sound.
More to come...


(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=112487)


(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=112488)


System: Yamaha 1800 SACD>CAT SL1 pre>Response Audio 3205 Sig.(Plus+) >VMPS 626R
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: OzarkTom on 12 Jan 2015, 07:12 am
Are you using the same brand of speaker wires in both comparisons? The Salis Audio mod with the Pomona binding posts adds quite a bit of emotion to the 1500. It should even be better after I get the amp cryo'd.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: mjosef on 12 Jan 2015, 07:36 am
Are you using the same brand of speaker wires in both comparisons?

Of course, yes...IC, speaker cable...just different connectors XLR for RCA, SpeakOn for bananas.  :thumb:
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: OzarkTom on 12 Jan 2015, 10:11 am
Of course, yes...IC, speaker cable...just different connectors XLR for RCA, SpeakOn for bananas.  :thumb:

Just curious because I was thinking about trying the speakon, how do you switch the bananas to the speakon?
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: jk@home on 12 Jan 2015, 11:42 am
Just curious because I was thinking about trying the speakon, how do you switch the bananas to the speakon?

DIY on a connector. Right now I am using bare wire (Canare 4S11)  into the stock binding posts, was able to fit two 14 AWG into each post. Guess I need to try the Speakons, but am running the amps bridged, so will have to wire the connectors accordingly.

http://www.neutrik.com/en/speakon/fc-series/nl4fc (http://www.neutrik.com/en/speakon/fc-series/nl4fc)

http://www.neutrik.com/en/support/faq/how-do-i-wire-my-cable-onto-my-speakon (http://www.neutrik.com/en/support/faq/how-do-i-wire-my-cable-onto-my-speakon)
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: mjosef on 12 Jan 2015, 09:39 pm
I normally bi-amp with my RM1s using the Xti on the bass drivers, so I have a dedicated SpeakOn speaker cable for the Xti. Same with the RCA/XLR IC


Just curious because I was thinking about trying the speakon, how do you switch the bananas to the speakon?
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: OzarkTom on 12 Jan 2015, 11:12 pm
I normally bi-amp with my RM1s using the Xti on the bass drivers, so I have a dedicated SpeakOn speaker cable for the Xti. Same with the RCA/XLR IC

I guess I will pass on the speakons. I have two cables of the same brand, one has spades, the other bananas. I hate spades, but the spaded one sounds quite a bit better than the bananas. The speaker cables I am using are cryo'd, if I change ends, I will have to send them off and get re-cryo'd.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: cab on 12 Jan 2015, 11:22 pm
if I change ends, I will have to send them off and get re-cryo'd.

Seriously?
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: OzarkTom on 12 Jan 2015, 11:31 pm
Seriously?

Sure, to get the best sound out of the cryo'd cables, you need the ends cryo'd also. I ran out of time, but the cryoman said to send him the Pamonas to him to cryo and let Roscoe change out on that cryo amp.

Triode Pete here on AC sells cryo'd cables, ask him.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: cab on 13 Jan 2015, 12:02 am
Sure, to get the best sound out of the cryo'd cables, you need the ends cryo'd also. I ran out of time, but the cryoman said to send him the Pamonas to him to cryo and let Roscoe change out on that cryo amp.

Triode Pete here on AC sells cryo'd cables, ask him.

Oooohhhhh kay........
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Folsom on 13 Jan 2015, 12:36 am
Cryo
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: OzarkTom on 13 Jan 2015, 01:00 am
Cryo

I am still waiting for the one from Roscoe. I still have not sent the Salis modded one yet, I was wanting to compare it to the stock cryo first.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Tomy2Tone on 13 Jan 2015, 01:13 am
Enjoying the Salis mods at the moment. Separation of instruments, well defined stage, increase in clarity. I think for the price you can get these amps used its probably a good idea to get the mod.

Anybody else out there got the Salis mod but also got it cryoed? I remember Salis saying he modded one or two and sent it off to cryo. Waiting to hear what the combo offers.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: mjosef on 13 Jan 2015, 06:28 am
Day Three...XLS does not like Stillpoints, at least not in my system. Sound was on the hard side, detailed but hard. Finally settled on a combination of two unhappy ballz and one LAT Sorbothane feet. Three LAT feet was delicious, makes you want to dance but was a bit too 'dark'. Plus about 10lbs of weight on top to keep it grounded.
Now strings has good texture, voices sound more 'human'.
The fan is very quiet, I had to peek through the front grill to know it was running...I was wondering whether it ever came on since I never heard it. That is one over the XTi, its fan lets you know when its running, you can hear it 8feet away.

Now that I have optimized the XLS in my system, tomorrow I will compare it to the Xti.
The XLS DSP is very rudimentary, almost primitive vs the Xti DSP , but I can also compare the two amps as a sub or bass amp...easy enough to match the 24dB crossover slope and freq. of the XLS with the Xti.



(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=112563)


(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=112564)

Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: OzarkTom on 13 Jan 2015, 09:56 am
The drum moongel pads works the best. My buddy Rex and I have tried everything including several brands of sorbothane feet and stillpoints.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: dlaloum on 13 Jan 2015, 10:30 am
Apparently Crown/Harman just launched a new DCi series at CES, these are the same Drivecore circuitry available in digital versions (with dsp) and analog versions (no dsp and no digital conversion involved)...

Price is however not the huge bargain that the XLS series is.....
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Russell Dawkins on 13 Jan 2015, 07:09 pm
The drum moongel pads works the best. My buddy Rex and I have tried everything including several brands of sorbothane feet and stillpoints.
I might be worth noting that moongels had, at least for the application I tried them in, a finite life. I had 4 under each of my stand mounted, slightly heavy (14 kg) speakers. When I went to change to a different set of speakers after about a year in place, the moongels were a gooey mess. Luckily neither the stands nor the speakers were damaged - but neither was made of wood or was otherwise porous. I would be concerned if wood was one of the surfaces.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Flyin_V on 13 Jan 2015, 08:38 pm
Could someone let me know what type and size of driver is needed to remove the cover? I see torx elsewhere, but the ones actually holding the top on are different. Maybe the previous owner screwed them up with the wrong drive?

Thanks.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Folsom on 13 Jan 2015, 08:59 pm
I bought this (http://m.homedepot.com/p/Husky-Ratcheting-Screwdriver-Set-30-Piece-236360300/204364650#) to work on the amp with. It has every Torx size needed. It's got a good selection of everything, very handy.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: OzarkTom on 13 Jan 2015, 11:46 pm
I might be worth noting that moongels had, at least for the application I tried them in, a finite life. I had 4 under each of my stand mounted, slightly heavy (14 kg) speakers. When I went to change to a different set of speakers after about a year in place, the moongels were a gooey mess. Luckily neither the stands nor the speakers were damaged - but neither was made of wood or was otherwise porous. I would be concerned if wood was one of the surfaces.

That is a little too hefty for the moongel pads, 15 pounds or less is probably the limit. I had thought about emailing the company and see if they could make some 1-2 inch thick pads for heavier components.

This video is what these pads do for drums. So it makes since that they will also help our audio components from unwanted resonances.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ztYGCiq3o5E
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: munosmario on 14 Jan 2015, 04:11 pm
That is a little too hefty for the moongel pads, 15 pounds or less is probably the limit. I had thought about emailing the company and see if they could make some 1-2 inch thick pads for heavier components.

This video is what these pads do for drums. So it makes since that they will also help our audio components from unwanted resonances.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ztYGCiq3o5E

Tom, link appears to clearly illustrate that moongel pads are designed to be used by attaching them freely on vibrating surfaces, not to support the weight of vibrating objects...do you have any links to manufacturer mentioning/recommending use of moongel pads to damp vibrating objects by actually supporting their weight?   
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: roscoeiii on 14 Jan 2015, 04:38 pm
Tom, link appears to clearly illustrate that moongel pads are designed to be used by attaching them freely on vibrating surfaces, not to support the weight of vibrating objects...do you have any links to manufacturer mentioning/recommending use of moongel pads to damp vibrating objects by actually supporting their weight?

Why would we need this from the manufacturer?
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: rollo on 14 Jan 2015, 04:47 pm
   Herbies anyone ????

charles
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: munosmario on 14 Jan 2015, 04:50 pm
Why would we need this from the manufacturer?

Well, aren't Russell and Tom discussing about  product failure due to amount of weight placed on pads... and Tom contemplating asking manufacturer to "make" 1 to 2 inch thick pads for weight bearing application??
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Tomy2Tone on 14 Jan 2015, 05:08 pm
   Herbies anyone ????

charles

Yep, supersonic hardballs is what i use. Went back and forth with the tenderfeet but i like the presentation that the hardballs give.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Odal3 on 14 Jan 2015, 05:13 pm
Thanks to all the recommendations on this thread I have used the moongel and cedar rings for a few months. Didn't believe it until I tried it but it works either under or on the side. Just be careful to put them on nice wood cabinets since they leave a bit of oily residue. Some people make their own by using the sticky hands (or animals or balls) that you can buy in the toy section. Haven't tried that so don't know if it works as well. Completely eliminated a hum issue I had from shipping damage on an external power supply.
Btw: here's a link discussing the benefits of these and other tweaks posted already in 2001.Need to try the golf tee trick - would be nice if they come in cedar :-) http://www.stereophile.com/finetunes/306/index.html
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: OzarkTom on 14 Jan 2015, 05:26 pm
   Herbies anyone ????

charles

Yes, Rex also has a set of those.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Flyin_V on 14 Jan 2015, 09:16 pm
I bought this (http://m.homedepot.com/p/Husky-Ratcheting-Screwdriver-Set-30-Piece-236360300/204364650#) to work on the amp with. It has every Torx size needed. It's got a good selection of everything, very handy.

It worked perfectly...thanks!
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: jk@home on 15 Jan 2015, 01:38 am
Just an FYI for anyone out there thinking about trying this amp. It's been only a little over 50 hours playing time on my two new 1500s now, and I can definitely hear a break-in improvement, so it's real. Working great on the KEF LS50s. Ended up using 4' long Mogami 2534 balanced cables (diyed from a single 10' cable + 2 more XLR connectors) and 6' lengths of Canare 4S11 speaker cable for the final setup. Had to move the amps back into view for this, but adding electrical tape over the display goes a long way in making things more discrete looking. Plan on hitting the power buttons with a dap of black paint, to dim the blue down a bit more. Thanks to who ever posted this tip.

Attempted to install the Neutrik NL4FC Speakon connectors I had bought for the amps on the Canare cables, but they won't accept two 14 AWG wires per terminal. So just went back to hard wiring the cables onto the Crown's binding posts. I would say this is the best way to use the stock posts, they will accept up to 11 stranded AWG, and with the help of a flat, thin bladed tool such as a gasket scraper, one can use the silts in the outer nuts to get a good 1/2 more turn on the posts, which then will really torque them down. Maybe later when I get more out of the warranty period, I will look at upgrading the posts.

Played around with mass loading the top of the chassis with some sand in bags I had on hand, jury's still out on that one. I read that Absolute Sound had an article (last Dec?) on a BBs in a box tweak for this, has anyone here tried that?
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: OzarkTom on 15 Jan 2015, 02:13 am
Played around with mass loading the top of the chassis with some sand in bags I had on hand, jury's still out on that one. I read that Absolute Sound had an article (last Dec?) on a BBs in a box tweak for this, has anyone here tried that?

The cryoman first tried sand on the 1500, but found 7.5 pounds of lead shot to sound much better.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: jk@home on 15 Jan 2015, 02:16 am
Yeah guess I need to go down to the sporting goods store and see what they have.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Folsom on 15 Jan 2015, 03:14 am
Does anyone wonder what adding a wood top would do? The top is loose, bottom has stiffening from the screws. Why not just make the vibrations favorable, if anything. Even gluing a strip of wood for "structure" ( | not - ) across it on the inside may do good.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Occam on 15 Jan 2015, 03:57 am
....
Attempted to install the Neutrik Speakon connectors I had bought for the amps on the Canare cables, but they won't accept two 14 AWG wires per terminal. So just went back to hard wiring the cables onto the Crown's binding posts. I would say this is the best way to use the stock posts,
.....
Two 14 gauge wires combine to 11 gauge.The newer SPX cable connectors, NL4FX & NL4FRX will accept up to 12 gauge, but if you remove the grub screw(s), you can get a 10 gauge in and solder (per Neutrik). The new metal bodied, solder only, STX connector, NT4FX-BAG will also accommodate 10 gauge.
http://www.neutrik.com/en/speakon/speakon-loudspeaker-connectors/speakon-cable-connectors/

Subjectively, IMO, there is NO good way to use Crown's provided binding posts.  :o
At best, they can described as craptastic.

Regards,
Paul
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: steve f on 15 Jan 2015, 04:44 am
Lead shot is not all that safe. Steel BBs are supposed to have the same properties without being hazardous. This is anecdotal reporting. I've never tried either.

Anybody remember magic bricks?

Steve
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: OzarkTom on 15 Jan 2015, 11:20 am
Lead shot is not all that safe. Steel BBs are supposed to have the same properties without being hazardous. This is anecdotal reporting. I've never tried either.

Anybody remember magic bricks?

Steve

Steve is right, lead is not safe to have lying around. Metal Detector hunters around here have found a lot of lead civil war mini balls and we suspect some of those people has died of lead poisoning. But they also had a ton of those mini balls lying aroung exposed in coffee cans.

And yeah, the VPI Magic bricks. I sold them back then but I never heard any difference.

Here is 6moons review.

http://www.6moons.com/industryfeatures/edge1/edge1.html
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: jk@home on 15 Jan 2015, 11:48 am
Two 14 gauge wires combine to 11 gauge.The newer SPX cable connectors, NL4FX & NL4FRX will accept up to 12 gauge, but if you remove the grub screw(s), you can get a 10 gauge in and solder (per Neutrik). The new metal bodied, solder only, STX connector, NT4FX-BAG will also accommodate 10 gauge.
http://www.neutrik.com/en/speakon/speakon-loudspeaker-connectors/speakon-cable-connectors/

Subjectively, IMO, there is NO good way to use Crown's provided binding posts.  :o
At best, they can described as craptastic.

Regards,
Paul

LOL, thanks for the info. :)  Ordered a couple of NLT4FX-BAGs from PE, to give it another go.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: eventhorizon on 15 Jan 2015, 11:41 pm
Does it matter which XLS amp to get,  there's also a XLS 1000 and 2500. 
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: roscoeiii on 15 Jan 2015, 11:53 pm
Does it matter which XLS amp to get,  there's also a XLS 1000 and 2500.

Not all of them have the same specs. IIRC the (THD?) numbers are a good bit better from the 1500 on up. But don't have time to look it up right now.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: dlaloum on 16 Jan 2015, 12:02 am
Specs other than power are identical from the 1500 on upwards...

Perhaps a more economical DSP is used in the 1000, and as all signals go through the DSP (even on bypass) it might account for the slightly worse signal/noise ratio...
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: a.wayne on 16 Jan 2015, 04:15 pm
Day Three...XLS does not like Stillpoints, at least not in my system. Sound was on the hard side, detailed but hard. Finally settled on a combination of two unhappy ballz and one LAT Sorbothane feet. Three LAT feet was delicious, makes you want to dance but was a bit too 'dark'. Plus about 10lbs of weight on top to keep it grounded.
Now strings has good texture, voices sound more 'human'.
The fan is very quiet, I had to peek through the front grill to know it was running...I was wondering whether it ever came on since I never heard it. That is one over the XTi, its fan lets you know when its running, you can hear it 8feet away.

Now that I have optimized the XLS in my system, tomorrow I will compare it to the Xti.
The XLS DSP is very rudimentary, almost primitive vs the Xti DSP , but I can also compare the two amps as a sub or bass amp...easy enough to match the 24dB crossover slope and freq. of the XLS with the Xti.



(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=112563)


(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=112564)

Any word on the comparisions ...... ?
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: mjosef on 17 Jan 2015, 06:15 am
I was away the last two days, but did do a quick comparison before I left...initial impression was that the XLS has a 'puffier' bass vs the Xti which was more 'solid', but I felt the XLS had better micro-detail retrieval on the upper end vs the Xti...over the weekend I will explore them more thoroughly.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Tomy2Tone on 18 Jan 2015, 12:02 am
Just an update on where the tour is...and is going.


mjosef- Brooklyn

SteveFord- PA

jtsnead- MD

Freo-1- MA

Peter J- ID

S Clark- TX

gregfisk- WA

Bill of NY
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: mjosef on 18 Jan 2015, 09:14 pm
Hola...I need the address of the next victim  :wink:

Not a 'Giant killa", but a lotta' bang for the buck.  :thumb:
I'll warp up later.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Bill of NY on 18 Jan 2015, 09:29 pm
I have a 2500 that I use for sub duty (SVS) and never thought of trying it on my ML Vistas
what do you guys think?
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: jk@home on 19 Jan 2015, 12:16 am
Go for it and report back  :D
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: maplegrovemusic on 19 Jan 2015, 12:47 am
The Crown works really well with electrostats . You will probably notice a more significant change than comparing to dynamic type speakers.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: dlaloum on 19 Jan 2015, 01:13 am
Hmm ESL's with XLS.... I'm just worried about arcing.... max V is definitely in the danger zone... (and I have replaced more than one Quad panel...)
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: maplegrovemusic on 19 Jan 2015, 01:45 am
I dunno know . The distributor for my speaker King Sound King Used a Crown for a time with his stats . I Think your Quads are problematic in the arcing department compared to most stats ?
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: dlaloum on 19 Jan 2015, 01:55 am
Maybe... the 63's are a 40 year old model - I believe the current ones have better protection circuits, but in the 70's Quad had voltage limiters built into their 405 series amps....

I am basing my concern on experiences with vintage stats... it really may not be an issue with current ones
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: maplegrovemusic on 19 Jan 2015, 02:12 am
In my case i was on a budget amp wise for years . A couple handful of amps came into my listening room and all were not liking  the severe load stats draw in the upper frequencies . The Crowns were the first amplifiers to make the speakers show their true capabilities . Now ,the crowns on a pair of box speakers i owned were not so remarkable . I attribute that to the previous amps not having a problem driving them .
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: roscoeiii on 19 Jan 2015, 02:24 am
Just got a deal on an iFi iTube which I will put in as a buffer with +6dB gain (based on my impression that the XLS like a hotter signal (true to its pro audio roots). Also interested to see how the 3D circuit in the iTube affects the imaging of the XLS. Stay tuned!!!
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: rodge827 on 19 Jan 2015, 03:00 am
Roscoe,

The 3D circuit is system based, it didn't work well on my speakers since they are designed to throw a large sound stage h,d, and w,.  Hope it improves your sound stage issue and as a buffer your preamp will mate better with the XLS. There is a very noticeable difference in SQ with the iTube in place in my system. YMMV

Also try and obtain a 9vdc linear power supply, it seriously improves the iTube performance.

Chris
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: OzarkTom on 19 Jan 2015, 03:06 am
Just got a deal on an iFi iTube which I will put in as a buffer with +6dB gain (based on my impression that the XLS like a hotter signal (true to its pro audio roots). Also interested to see how the 3D circuit in the iTube affects the imaging of the XLS. Stay tuned!!!

ITube cryo'd makes a huge improvement, at least 50-70% better.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: rodge827 on 19 Jan 2015, 03:09 am
Tom, I haven't done mine yet, but plan to when I send the XLS to get cryo'ed and get the better power cable.

Chris
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: roscoeiii on 19 Jan 2015, 04:00 am
ITube cryo'd makes a huge improvement, at least 50-70% better.

Oh, I am showing up at cryoman's door with a bucket full of stuff to cryo...
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: roscoeiii on 19 Jan 2015, 04:02 am
Yeah, 9v supply is on the t-do-list. But what to get a good linear supply for first? DSPeaker or iTube? Maybe only you can help me answeer that.

Roscoe

Also try and obtain a 9vdc linear power supply, it seriously improves the iTube performance.

Chris
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: rodge827 on 19 Jan 2015, 04:26 am
Roscoe,

That's a tough one...Hmm, I would do the Dual Core first that way you are getting the better signal through the iTube. Give Larry at Comart (800-777-2708) a call and tell him what you want 2 Astron 11A's one modified for 9v output, should run you about $240.00 to your door. Or look around for a used 12v Astron on CL near you they usually run about $25-$50 and then give Larry a call for a 9v.

Chris
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: mhamel on 19 Jan 2015, 05:05 am
Great thread... count me as another believer in the XLS series, I've been running them for the past couple of years.

I started with the XLS200, which retired the Sunfire amp driving the mains in my H/T system, driven from the balanced outputs of a Marantz AV7701 Pre/Pro.  While it's outstanding with movies, it also does a surprisingly good job with 2-channel.  To my ears, the Sunfire sounded flat and boring in comparison - not even close.

Since then, I've added a 1500 driving a pair of Mini Maggies in my home office system, where I do most of my 2-channel listening. I'm driving it with a BAT VK-5i preamp and have to say I've been pretty blown away with the result.

I'm looking forward to reading more impressions/comparisons of the modded versions.

   -Mike





Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: OzarkTom on 19 Jan 2015, 05:44 am
On the iTube, cryo first, astron second, cryo power cord last, if you have to do it in steps.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Rclark on 20 Jan 2015, 08:21 pm
I have an Astron sitting around I might not need.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: roscoeiii on 20 Jan 2015, 11:13 pm
I have an Astron sitting around I might not need.

Shoot me a PM if so!
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Tomy2Tone on 21 Jan 2015, 12:59 am
Great thread... count me as another believer in the XLS series, I've been running them for the past couple of years.

I started with the XLS200, which retired the Sunfire amp driving the mains in my H/T system, driven from the balanced outputs of a Marantz AV7701 Pre/Pro.  While it's outstanding with movies, it also does a surprisingly good job with 2-channel.  To my ears, the Sunfire sounded flat and boring in comparison - not even close.

Since then, I've added a 1500 driving a pair of Mini Maggies in my home office system, where I do most of my 2-channel listening. I'm driving it with a BAT VK-5i preamp and have to say I've been pretty blown away with the result.

I'm looking forward to reading more impressions/comparisons of the modded versions.

   -Mike

Welcome Mike!

That looks like a pretty nice pre you got there! I'll be sending in my 1500's to get cryoed here shortly but the Salis mod already makes a nice improvement. Feel free to pm Salis once you get enough posts tallied, I think it's reasonably priced for the results you get.

Love to hear more about that BAT!
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: OzarkTom on 21 Jan 2015, 01:18 am
Great thread... count me as another believer in the XLS series, I've been running them for the past couple of years.

I started with the XLS200, which retired the Sunfire amp driving the mains in my H/T system, driven from the balanced outputs of a Marantz AV7701 Pre/Pro.  While it's outstanding with movies, it also does a surprisingly good job with 2-channel.  To my ears, the Sunfire sounded flat and boring in comparison - not even close.

Since then, I've added a 1500 driving a pair of Mini Maggies in my home office system, where I do most of my 2-channel listening. I'm driving it with a BAT VK-5i preamp and have to say I've been pretty blown away with the result.

I'm looking forward to reading more impressions/comparisons of the modded versions.

   -Mike
 

I was wondering last week on how the Crown would sound on the mini maggies or MMG's.

MMG's are $599 and a new Crown 1500 at about $350 would make a fantastic system for less than $1K. But if you find both items used, it would be closer to $600. Now that would be a heck of a deal. :thumb:
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Tomy2Tone on 21 Jan 2015, 01:23 am
 

I was wondering last week on how the Crown would sound on the mini maggies or MMG's.

MMG's are $599 and a new Crown 1500 at about $350 would make a fantastic system for less than $1K. But if you find both items used, it would be closer to $600. Now that would be a heck of a deal. :thumb:

Man, that does sound like a sweet deal. Does Magnepan offer something like a 45 or 60 day in home trial on all their speakers?
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: mhamel on 21 Jan 2015, 01:31 am
Man, that does sound like a sweet deal. Does Magnepan offer something like a 45 or 60 day in home trial on all their speakers?

They do.  30 days on the Mini Maggies and 60 days on the MMG.

   -Mike

Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: OzarkTom on 21 Jan 2015, 01:34 am
Man, that does sound like a sweet deal. Does Magnepan offer something like a 45 or 60 day in home trial on all their speakers?

I found a used pair of MMG's for $400 in Alabama.

http://gadsden.craigslist.org/sys/4827572317.html
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: OzarkTom on 21 Jan 2015, 01:38 am
If you live close to Albany New York, here is a pair of MMG's for $300.

http://albany.craigslist.org/ele/4842194588.html
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Russell Dawkins on 21 Jan 2015, 06:45 am
I can see Magnepans and the Crowns being a perfect match, what with their needing serious power and possibly smoothing the top just a little - at least that's how I hear them.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: SteveFord on 21 Jan 2015, 12:38 pm
I guess I'll find out as the tour amp is on it's way to me.
I can hook it up to MMGs, 1.7s and 3.7s and see what we've got.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Tomy2Tone on 21 Jan 2015, 12:56 pm
I guess I'll find out as the tour amp is on it's way to me.
I can hook it up to MMGs, 1.7s and 3.7s and see what we've got.

Perfect timing!  :D
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Folsom on 21 Jan 2015, 07:12 pm
Ozark, have you done a comparison on Cryo'd units?

Tomy2Tone has his done but can't compare. I've been looking for more possible mods but there isn't a lot one can do on these. Even what might be possible takes more serious gear than I use at home.

Replacing the RCA jacks could be not too hard. I'm not sure what the benefits would be.

To me the best way to feed signal that I can come up with is not to circumvent the balanced input by using simple non-transformer adapters. I think if you used a transformer to convert single ended to balanced and fed it with balanced connection, you'd have the best sound. It could be worth a shot.

No one has had me modify for Ponoma posts. If I do it (and charge), I'll be attempting to make it copper the whole way. As is the signal does pass through steel a little bit; but obviously it isn't hard to beat the stock unusable form.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: OzarkTom on 21 Jan 2015, 07:38 pm
Cryo amp is here, now to find some time this weekend to get it hooked up. :thumb:
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Tomy2Tone on 21 Jan 2015, 07:43 pm
Cryo amp is here, now to find some time this weekend to get it hooked up. :thumb:

Bout time!! :D
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Tomy2Tone on 21 Jan 2015, 09:27 pm
Just got off the phone with Larry at Comart and ordered an Astron 11a with the 9v output. Larry was super nice. Thanks Chris!

So how do you guys hook this up to your ifi itube? Is it a cable you make? If so, whatcha gotta do?

Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: murphy11 on 21 Jan 2015, 10:40 pm
Just got off the phone with Larry at Comart and ordered an Astron 11a with the 9v output. Larry was super nice. Thanks Chris!

So how do you guys hook this up to your ifi itube? Is it a cable you make? If so, whatcha gotta do?
Pretty sure this would work  http://www.parts-express.com/detachable-mini-plug-kit--120-537?AID=1457483&PID=5567334&SID=skim23608X823435X1999328b547b9cfcb612a17f5fa37273  I use it with my Astron to power my 3116 amp.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: OzarkTom on 21 Jan 2015, 11:30 pm
Just got off the phone with Larry at Comart and ordered an Astron 11a with the 9v output. Larry was super nice. Thanks Chris!

So how do you guys hook this up to your ifi itube? Is it a cable you make? If so, whatcha gotta do?

Rex and I are using the reality cables $60 cryo'd power cord. That made another improvement of 30-40% on the iTube over a stock cord. It was well worth it.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Tomy2Tone on 21 Jan 2015, 11:39 pm
Rex and I are using the reality cables $60 cryo'd power cord. That made another improvement of 30-40% on the iTube over a stock cord. It was well worth it.

I'm going to order one of those when I send in everything to get cryoed.

I was watching some videos today on cryogenic treatment and it looked like liquid nitrogen was the primary source for the cooling. Do they have different methods for audio purposes I wonder? I was amazed at how many different fields of use that people use cryo for, from hunting rifles to auto parts.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: jk@home on 21 Jan 2015, 11:55 pm
Ozark, have you done a comparison on Cryo'd units?

Tomy2Tone has his done but can't compare. I've been looking for more possible mods but there isn't a lot one can do on these. Even what might be possible takes more serious gear than I use at home.

Replacing the RCA jacks could be not too hard. I'm not sure what the benefits would be.

To me the best way to feed signal that I can come up with is not to circumvent the balanced input by using simple non-transformer adapters. I think if you used a transformer to convert single ended to balanced and fed it with balanced connection, you'd have the best sound. It could be worth a shot.

No one has had me modify for Ponoma posts. If I do it (and charge), I'll be attempting to make it copper the whole way. As is the signal does pass through steel a little bit; but obviously it isn't hard to beat the stock unusable form.

The Jensen Iso-Max units are nice, I have used them before to convert unbalanced to balanced (and visa versa). Course they cost almost as much as a 1500. :)

Last night I soldered on the metal, high current Neutrik Speakon connectors (NLT4FX-BAG) onto my Canare 4S11 cable. Man, that's a nifty connector. Thinking the sound quality went up a notch also.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: DaveC113 on 22 Jan 2015, 12:19 am
I just got some Furutech top-end RCA jacks for my preamp and plan on moving a pair of the DH Labs ultimate copper RCA jacks currently in my preamp over to the Crown. I also have the lower end copper/rhodium Furutech IEC inlet for the Crown. It won't be difficult but the PCB needs to be removed and the jacks all need to be unsoldered from the PCB and wires added, which I will keep as short as possible. I'll also wire the Pomona binding posts with copper wire instead of the steel tabs. That should get rid of all the steel and make for a nice improvement.

Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: rodge827 on 22 Jan 2015, 01:18 am
I just got some Furutech top-end RCA jacks for my preamp and plan on moving a pair of the DH Labs ultimate copper RCA jacks currently in my preamp over to the Crown. I also have the lower end copper/rhodium Furutech IEC inlet for the Crown. It won't be difficult but the PCB needs to be removed and the jacks all need to be unsoldered from the PCB and wires added, which I will keep as short as possible. I'll also wire the Pomona binding posts with copper wire instead of the steel tabs. That should get rid of all the steel and make for a nice improvement.

Great idea! Pure copper through and through.  8)
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: rodge827 on 22 Jan 2015, 01:24 am
Just got off the phone with Larry at Comart and ordered an Astron 11a with the 9v output. Larry was super nice. Thanks Chris!

So how do you guys hook this up to your ifi itube? Is it a cable you make? If so, whatcha gotta do?

I had a few old wall warts laying around that matched up with the power input, took out a pair of scissors and...

Pretty sure this would work  http://www.parts-express.com/detachable-mini-plug-kit--120-537?AID=1457483&PID=5567334&SID=skim23608X823435X1999328b547b9cfcb612a17f5fa37273  I use it with my Astron to power my 3116 amp.

Nice cord should work fine.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Folsom on 22 Jan 2015, 05:15 am
I just got some Furutech top-end RCA jacks for my preamp and plan on moving a pair of the DH Labs ultimate copper RCA jacks currently in my preamp over to the Crown. I also have the lower end copper/rhodium Furutech IEC inlet for the Crown. It won't be difficult but the PCB needs to be removed and the jacks all need to be unsoldered from the PCB and wires added, which I will keep as short as possible. I'll also wire the Pomona binding posts with copper wire instead of the steel tabs. That should get rid of all the steel and make for a nice improvement.

You may have to cut up some flat inductor to get something to the slots for the speaker binding post wire connection

Yes and no on binding posts. Due to skin effect, you're faced with having to use different nuts and washers too, to avoid steel. It doesn't matter how the wire is connected. Use two nuts, one to lock the other.

http://www.mcmaster.com/#hex-nuts/=vkl6xy

The outside needs a washer with smaller hole so the post mounts flush.

http://www.mcmaster.com/#standard-washers/=vkl7nv
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Tomy2Tone on 22 Jan 2015, 12:35 pm
I had a few old wall warts laying around that matched up with the power input, took out a pair of scissors and...

I think I have a few of those too hiding in boxes somewhere...great idea! Thanks!
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: OzarkTom on 23 Jan 2015, 02:16 am
The cryo amp is now on and warming up. :thumb:
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: rodge827 on 23 Jan 2015, 02:36 am
The cryo amp is now on and warming up. :thumb:

Anxious to know what you hear... 8)

Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: mjosef on 23 Jan 2015, 03:04 am
Alright let me wrap up my now concluded experience with the XLS, life does tend to get in the way sometimes... :lol:


XLS vs Rest...

System chain: Yamaha 1800 SACD/CD source> CAT SL1 >XLS/XTi >VMPS 626R

Continung full range on the 626R...With XLS/stereo-bypass mode.  Piano not sounding 'right', lacks weight on the notes. Female voices a bit too light. Stringed instruments lacking body. Soundstage decent, good depth and width.
Switching to Xti/DSP Bypass Mode: Fuller, richer midrange, upper bass, mid bass ranges , Xti has better weight in these areas. Larger, deeper soundstage...not a subtle improvement, easy to hear.
Winner Xti vs XLS running full range/Bypass mode on RM626R.

Onto biamping mode on VMPS RM1 whiuch I normally run with a Marchand X/O (@250Hz)after the CAT pre to power the mid/hi panels via my tube amp, with the Xti driving the twin 8" bass drivers. No Marchand X/O used with the XLS/Xti combo, not needed.
Crossover set to lowpass @320Hz on the XLS powering the twin 8" bass drivers, and Hipass set at   320Hz on the Xti powering the mid-hi drivers.  Sound OK kinda flat, empty. Percussion is good.
Reversed positions, Xti on the bass drivers and XLS on the mid-hi panels, adjusting the amps' x/o's hipass to low pass and vice versa. better, but not quite filled out. Midrange still sounds a bit light.
Best combo was with the XLS hipassed at 250Hz and the Xti low passed 320Hz /6dB slope. Why the overlap? The mid panel drops off about 5-6dB from 400Hz to 315Hz. The 6dB slope and the overlap more closely follows VMPS original first order crossover.
Holly Cole's voice on "I can see clearly now" had a fuller tone with the piano notes sounding richer and more 'real'.  Tuck's guitar string had more resonance and decay. The soundstage had nice depth and width, but height was lower than I usually get. Soundstage dimensions is important to me because my space is small, 11x14.
The XLS did not do it for me in my set up, I found it lacking weight, texture, richness, liquidity... call it something(s) all through the mid/hi-bass up through the midrange spectrum. It made the piano sound somewhat 'hollow' and glossy, voices 'lighter'.  It clearly needs reinforcement in the upper bass/low midrange area.

The Xti is the better amp imo, comes with a full DSP engine which makes it more suitable as a sub/woofer amp. Even full range its sound trumps the XLS1500, very surprising to me I expected the XLS to be closer in comparison. Hearing the XLS driving the mid/hi panels above 320Hz. was quite an ear opener, however I think its the mid/upper bass area that contributes most of the body/weight tone which I felt is where the XLS came up short.  Maybe the XLS2000/2500 with its beefier p/s might offer more body and weight to the mids and bass?

After boxing up the XLS and going back to my usual set up, tubes up top, Xti on the bass...the cons of the XLS sticks out like a sore thumb. But its a great value, it bettered the ClassD Audio CDA 254, made it sound 'dull' in comparison.
Bear in mind my ears may be older than others' on here and my system may not be on par with many...so your mileage will most certainly vary, as already shown herein.

Connections used: XLR in. SpeakOn out.
Primary test disc : Clarity Cable LV2009 demo disc.
Tracks: 2. 'Fever' Peggy Lee,
7. 'I can see clearly now' Holy Cole Trio. ,
10. 'Summertime' Ella & Louis.
11. 'Papa was a rollin' stone' GRP All Stars.
13. 'They can't take that away from me' Tuck & Patti.
16. 'Jesus gonna be here' Five Blind Boys of Alabama.
17. 'Flight of the Cosmic Hippo' Bela Fleck.
18. 'Will the Circle be unbroken' Nitty Gritty Dirt Band
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: a.wayne on 23 Jan 2015, 04:14 am
Appreciate the effort easy to follow along with  your indepth approach and  conclusion , i had decided on the xti for bass due to its more extensive DSP unit , this makes the decision easier ......


Regards
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Odal3 on 23 Jan 2015, 06:23 am
Been using the Crown XLS 2000 for a little while both as a sub amp as well as with full range. Been very happy so far. Main observation for those who haven't had a chance to try it yet, your pre-amp makes a huge impact on the sound. If it can't deliver the pro level inputs, it sounds like the dynamics takes a hit in full-range (regardless if efficient bookshelves or more hard to drive speakers), and the "punch" sufferes with subwoofers. I'll guess this may differ on system, but if it didn't sound good with gain at 1, it didn't matter if I crank up the gain to the max. Yes - more volume, but "lifeless" sound. Then on the other hand, with proper input, I agree with all the positive reviews in this and other threads. It is a lot of good sound for the money. So if you don't like the sound at first, play around with some different pre-amps (or line level converter boxes, which I haven't tried myself)

I don't have anything fancy to compare with (but the rest of you have already covered this), so this is more for those with more budget-level equipment at home:
CDP or Computer via DAC (without pre-amp) resulted in lifeless sound

Using my old Pioneer Elite AVR pre-outs was neither a hit (but that was expected since it doesn't sound too good by itself either)

Using the DAC/pre-out on a Peachtree Audio Nova cleaned-up the sound and sounded pretty good but thin.

My favorite was when I "stole" the cheap LittleBear P3 tube preamp that I have been using with my TPA3116 amp. It definitely brought out the mids and bass better on the crown - perhaps some tube "distortion" is good :-) Same thing happened on my TPA3116 amp, which was lifeless and thin on the low end until I put in this preamp. As someone else mentioned, tube preamps seems to work really well with class d. This particular preamp has been criticized for the huge gain and sensitive volume control (not to mention it's diy look) when used with consumer level amps, but this is exactly what makes it a great match with the Crowns. I'm sure there are many better preamps out there but for the $50 I paid for the preamp (new) combined with $160 + shipping for a used XLS, I have a really nice sounding system for less than $250!

mjosef - thanks for the input and good comparison. I'm happy with the xls for now, but been eying the used xti market to get some more advanced dsp for sub duty or alternatively to use it as you tested for bi-amping with the xls. Read that the fan is rather noisy. Is it bearable, or do you need to put the xti in a different room?
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: mjosef on 23 Jan 2015, 06:51 am
Quote
Read that the fan is rather noisy. Is it bearable, or do you need to put the xti in a different room?

It comes on only when being pushed hard, then its audible from 10ft. away during quieter passages in the music or between tracks, if its loud rock or dance music I doubt you will hear it.  Its a 48v. fan, so not easy to find quieter replacement, I may try an inline resistor to see if I can cut the RPM some...the speed is variable, ie it kicks on high then throttles down.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: OzarkTom on 23 Jan 2015, 12:59 pm
What model number is the XTI? I found a couple of used 4000's for $550 each.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: mjosef on 23 Jan 2015, 05:00 pm
You need the 2 series, 1002, 2002, 3002, 4002...I have the 1002
http://www.crownaudio.com/usa/amplifiers/xti-2-series.html
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: OzarkTom on 24 Jan 2015, 02:36 am
I have had the cryoamp playing now for 24 hours. Here is my results on my Zellaton speakers.

Cryo amp with stock binding posts-More detail which means bigger soundstage and more depth. Hight of soundstage is much higher. It does sound slightly clinical. It was very clinical sounding last night, maybe it will be better after another 24 hours. Time also to change those binding posts, that will help. :thumb:

Salis Audio 1500 with Pomona binding posts-very natural sounding and has all the magic and emotion that I prefer.  Soundstage is good, but not quite as good as the cryo amp. This round goes to the Salis Audio amp because of the magic.

Now if we can get both strengths in one amp, that will be perfect.

Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: jk@home on 24 Jan 2015, 02:05 pm
Been using the Crown XLS 2000 for a little while both as a sub amp as well as with full range. Been very happy so far. Main observation for those who haven't had a chance to try it yet, your pre-amp makes a huge impact on the sound. If it can't deliver the pro level inputs, it sounds like the dynamics takes a hit in full-range (regardless if efficient bookshelves or more hard to drive speakers), and the "punch" sufferes with subwoofers....

I agree based on my limited experience with this amp. But it doesn't have to be tubed, a clean high gain SS pre also does well.

I have found that adding on components in the signal chain to make the amp "work" would degrade the sound in my setup. Tried the single end outputs of my NuForce MCP-18 preamp into a Jensen Isomax tranny box to produce a balanced output to the Crown, and/or adding my Dodds buffer after my DAC (with the Goldpoint attenuator removed out of the circuit). Either of these added no improvement and reduced the performance. These amps shine due to their extreme resolution per price of admission, it doesn't make sense to work against that.

That said, as mjosef alludes to in his review, these amps are not voiced to some audiophile speakers. So that has to be accounted for and solved one way or another, for the amp to work in any particular system.

The fact that the amps have virtually no fan noise, and they can be left powered on 24/7 is great. Since my system is now all SS,  I just turn on/off my Squeezebox for music, very convenient.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Odal3 on 24 Jan 2015, 03:02 pm
I would like to try that too so what would be a good pro audio preamp/mixer with balanced outputs that matches the price-performance ratio of the crown? In fact, a few extra channels for an occasional addition of an instrument (in a different system) would actually be a plus for me as long as the form factor is small. Tried an older Presonus Audiobox USB but since that is more designed to be an economical and portable recording to computer solution with mic preamp, I found it to be clipping a bit when used with the crown.

Thanks for the info on the XTI fan. On the XLS, I have only noticed the fan to turn on once and that was when I played with the high pass settings and had it at close to 3000hz
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: jk@home on 24 Jan 2015, 03:52 pm
I would like to try that too so what would be a good pro audio preamp/mixer with balanced outputs that matches the price-performance ratio of the crown? In fact, a few extra channels for an occasional addition of an instrument (in a different system) would actually be a plus for me as long as the form factor is small. Tried an older Presonus Audiobox USB but since that is more designed to be an economical and portable recording to computer solution with mic preamp, I found it to be clipping a bit when used with the crown.

Thanks for the info on the XTI fan. On the XLS, I have only noticed the fan to turn on once and that was when I played with the high pass settings and had it at close to 3000hz

Well the pre I am using is not a Pro mixer, it's the discontinued multichannel analog unit from Nuforce. On sale or used, it is a pretty good deal, if you can still find one. I have a MiniDSP NanoDIGI, plus extra FiiO DACs, that I plan on using to blend and EQ all my subs into the system better, so the reason way I went with a multichannel analog unit.

Parasound makes a nice multichannel pre for much more $$$.

Noway is using a BenchMark DAC with his Crown, so that's a pro DAC plus preamp combo, with balanced outputs.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: I.Greyhound Fan on 24 Jan 2015, 06:52 pm
I found a used pair of MMG's for $400 in Alabama.

http://gadsden.craigslist.org/sys/4827572317.html

If you are looking at used Maggies, be aware that older Maggies have a tendency for the glue that is holding the wires on the mylar to dry out and come loose.  This causes a rattle on bass heavy music.  It can be fixed by sending it into the factory or you can order the glue from Magnepan and DIY as long it is not during the winter because Magnepan will not ship the glue during the cold months as it ruins the glue.

I have a slight rattle on one of my 12 year old MMG's that I am going to drop off at Magnepan factory 20 minutes from my house.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Tomy2Tone on 24 Jan 2015, 07:12 pm
I have had the cryoamp playing now for 24 hours. Here is my results on my Zellaton speakers.

Cryo amp with stock binding posts-More detail which means bigger soundstage and more depth. Hight of soundstage is much higher. It does sound slightly clinical. It was very clinical sounding last night, maybe it will be better after another 24 hours. Time also to change those binding posts, that will help. :thumb:

Salis Audio 1500 with Pomona binding posts-very natural sounding and has all the magic and emotion that I prefer.  Soundstage is good, but not quite as good as the cryo amp. This round goes to the Salis Audio amp because of the magic.

Now if we can get both strengths in one amp, that will be perfect.

Interesting on the soundstage detail with cryo amp Tom. I was trying to remember how many hours the cryo man said it would take for the cryo amp to settle after the treatment, was it something like 200 hours?

As soon as I get my Perseus back from Rogue I'll look to get the 1500's cryoed.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: OzarkTom on 24 Jan 2015, 07:24 pm
Interesting on the soundstage detail with cryo amp Tom. I was trying to remember how many hours the cryo man said it would take for the cryo amp to settle after the treatment, was it something like 200 hours?

As soon as I get my Perseus back from Rogue I'll look to get the 1500's cryoed.

Remember,  this is the one that Roscoe was using, so it is probably is close to being burned in. But  150-200 hours is probably the best for it the cryo'd. I will try and get the Pomona binding posts put in tonight.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Tomy2Tone on 24 Jan 2015, 07:29 pm
Remember,  this is the one that Roscoe was using, so it is probably is close to being burned in. But  150-200 hours is probably the best for it the cryo'd. I will try and get the Pomona binding posts put in tonight.

I agree the Salis mod does make it sound nice and smooth but if the cryo can increase the soundstage scale and detail then that would just be the cherry on top.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: zapper7 on 24 Jan 2015, 09:44 pm
Hey Guys,

Not to go backwards, but which binding posts fit right in the amp, I can't remember and would like to see if anyone found others not in this thread that worked well.

thanks
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: roscoeiii on 24 Jan 2015, 10:08 pm
Remember,  this is the one that Roscoe was using, so it is probably is close to being burned in. But  150-200 hours is probably the best for it the cryo'd. I will try and get the Pomona binding posts put in tonight.

I'd say ~150 hours sounds about right for the time it spent playing in my system.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: roscoeiii on 24 Jan 2015, 10:17 pm
And just put the iTube into the chain. Using it as a buffer with +6dB gain. Leaving the gain controls where they were (5 o'clock), this did raise the noise floor but turning the XLS gain down to around 2 o'clock really did the trick in my system. Got the XLS a hotter signal (which it seems to like), and let me have a bit less XLS gain. This is with the 3D circuitry on at the highest level.

Will report back on more details once I have gotten more time with the iTube.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: OzarkTom on 24 Jan 2015, 10:28 pm
Hey Guys,

Not to go backwards, but which binding posts fit right in the amp, I can't remember and would like to see if anyone found others not in this thread that worked well.

thanks

I used the Pomonas, fits perfectly. On the inside of the amp, I left out those plastic washers that comes with these posts, my buddy Rex told me to do. These are about $10 each at Mouser.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Tomy2Tone on 25 Jan 2015, 12:47 am
And just put the iTube into the chain. Using it as a buffer with +6dB gain. Leaving the gain controls where they were (5 o'clock), this did raise the noise floor but turning the XLS gain down to around 2 o'clock really did the trick in my system. Got the XLS a hotter signal (which it seems to like), and let me have a bit less XLS gain. This is with the 3D circuitry on at the highest level.

Will report back on more details once I have gotten more time with the iTube.

Did you get any type of upgraded power supply?

Since my Perseus pre has been out to Rogue I've put the itube in but just as a buffer. Sounds good but will experiment with it as a preamp. The astron ps I ordered probably won't get here till Monday which will give me plenty time to notice the difference it makes.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: roscoeiii on 25 Jan 2015, 01:06 am
No upgrades or tweaks yet. Will tweak down the road.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: OzarkTom on 25 Jan 2015, 03:34 am
Just what I figured. It was the stock binding posts that was causing the clinical sound on the cryo amp. Make sure you get rid of those if you are using spades or bananas.

Tonights nod goes very slightly  to the cryo amp  with Pomonas over the Salis Audio with Pomonas.  The cryo amp now even sounds slightly more magical and emotional with the bigger soundstage. Now to send the Salis Audio amp off and get it cryo'd.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: LP1 on 25 Jan 2015, 10:02 pm
I've been following this thread with some interest as a custom horn system I commissioned is nearing completion. Bass will be handled by two large sealed cabinets each containing a TD15X.

I have been considering one of the crown amps for sub duty as I'd like to correct any issues using dsp. Am I correct that the dsp in the XTI is more sophisticated than the XLS? For sub only duty, does the difference really matter?

Finally, other than cost and more boxes, what are the differences between using one of the Crown amps vs. the DSPeaker and separate amp?

Thanks!
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: dlaloum on 26 Jan 2015, 01:50 am
If what you want is a simple crossover - the XSP will do fine (as long as you are happy with the fixed slope...)

The Dspeaker does a lot more in terms of correction than simply cross over though!

The XLS series might be a good value series of amps to have after a DSpeaker or similar DSP corrective system.

DSpeaker and similar allow you to crossover but also adjust for room interaction, gains/losses within the cabinet, etc... in other words it does a whole heap more.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: rodge827 on 26 Jan 2015, 03:36 am
I've been following this thread with some interest as a custom horn system I commissioned is nearing completion. Bass will be handled by two large sealed cabinets each containing a TD15X.

I have been considering one of the crown amps for sub duty as I'd like to correct any issues using dsp. Am I correct that the dsp in the XTI is more sophisticated than the XLS? For sub only duty, does the difference really matter?

Finally, other than cost and more boxes, what are the differences between using one of the Crown amps vs. the DSPeaker and separate amp?

Thanks!


If what you want is a simple crossover - the XSP will do fine (as long as you are happy with the fixed slope...)

The Dspeaker does a lot more in terms of correction than simply cross over though!

The XLS series might be a good value series of amps to have after a DSpeaker or similar DSP corrective system.

DSpeaker and similar allow you to crossover but also adjust for room interaction, gains/losses within the cabinet, etc... in other words it does a whole heap more.

Using a Dspeaker Dual Core is the way to go.
I have a XLS1500 in Stereo High Pass Mode (99hz) and my subs are dialed in at +/-100hz with the attached plate amps. The slope on the monitors and subs match the slope on the Crown at 24db. When the Dual Core does a calibration it automatically "blends" the two for a seamless integration. After the calibration you can measure frequencies from 20hz-20khz, 20hz-500hz, or 20hz-200hz using the measurement feature. This will help tremendously on deciding which frequencies to "cut" or "boost".

After the calibration in my room I was +/- .5db down at 20hz-30hz I felt it added far too much energy to those hardly used frequencies and did a -9db cut from 30hz-20hz. The bass has a much more natural sound now with the low end roll off. There is also a feature where the the level of compensation can be reduced in small measured steps. In some bass heavy music this is a very helpful feature so the room isn't overloaded with bass and is better balanced with the other frequencies. Of course this is a matter of taste which completely individual YMMV.

There is one on eBay now and the price looks good: http://www.ebay.com/itm/DSpeaker-Anti-Mode-2-0-Dual-Core-Audio-Processor-DAC-w-Auto-Room-Correction-Box-/231459848022?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item35e414ff56

Hope this helps to make a choice and happy bidding.

Chris
 
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: steve f on 26 Jan 2015, 03:39 am
The one thing that the XLS amps need is a good preamp with a bit of gain. Odal3 is right about that.

I've had no major sonic problems with mine, and I've switched them in and out with good A/AB amps. I don't have a large tube amp on hand. (No fair trying to match it up to a tiny class A  OTL rated at 1.5WPC.)  The Crowns are a great value.

In my case, I use efficient speakers that are about 95 DB efficiency. No clipping with the Crown. I wonder if some of the others comparing amps are bothering to level match.

Steve
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Tomy2Tone on 26 Jan 2015, 03:46 am
The one thing that the XLS amps need is a good preamp with a bit of gain. Odal3 is right about that.

I've had no major sonic problems with mine, and I've switched them in and out with good A/AB amps. I don't have a large tube amp on hand. (No fair trying to match it up to a tiny class A  OTL rated at 1.5WPC.)  The Crowns are a great value.

In my case, I use efficient speakers that are about 95 DB efficiency. No clipping with the Crown. I wonder if some of the others comparing amps are bothering to level match.

Steve

If you haven't already, would you mind sharing what other A/AB amps you've compared the Crowns to?
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: steve f on 26 Jan 2015, 06:16 am
ATI, Bryston, B&K, and Rotel. The B&K and Rotel were multichannel amps using two channels, the ATI and Bryston were Stereo amps.

I did not have any monoblocks except for a pair of Antique Sound Labs Wave 8s. (A cheap loss leader amp) I only have two other tube amps, and they are flea power SET types.

I have a few other old amps around by Carver and McIntosh, but I feel they aren't in the same class as the ATI, Bryston, and Rotel. Some of the amps aren't mine. Just loaners, but they all have been here for a few months and I'm familiar with them.

Edit: I haven't tried using the xls 1500s as monoblocks and probably won't.

Steve
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Tomy2Tone on 27 Jan 2015, 02:09 am
Thanks for sharing what amps you've used steve f. Always helps to have a little perspective on what people are comparing the Crowns to.

I received the astron power supply today and have had it plugged into the itube for a couple of hours. Definitely a nice improvement over the stock. However, it sounded much better with a good power cable vs the one supplied or any other cheap power cables I had lying around.

Gives a nice, clean and defined soundstage to the itube which I thought was already pretty good.

Thumbs up!  :thumb:
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: rodge827 on 27 Jan 2015, 02:14 am

I received the astron power supply today and have had it plugged into the itube for a couple of hours. Definitely a nice improvement over the stock. However, it sounded much better with a good power cable vs the one supplied or any other cheap power cables I had lying around.

Gives a nice, clean and defined soundstage to the itube which I thought was already pretty good.

Thumbs up!  :thumb:

Yep +1  :thumb:
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: jk@home on 28 Jan 2015, 12:12 pm
FYI, if anyone is interested in playing around with mass loading on top of their Crowns, I found (and purchased) a couple of these wood boxes, for not much money. They are lightweight, about a pound each, but still decent quality and nice looking. Will hold at least 10 pounds of steel shot each, even with the insert dividers. You can use the supplied Palette as a template for a solid piece of paneling to seal the contents.

Leave unfinished, or finish it to your taste ( I prefer Howard's Feed-N-Wax) Someone real arty could use a wood engraver to draw the Crown logo on the lid.  :D

http://www.dickblick.com/products/art-alternatives-artists-sketch-box-with-palette/ (http://www.dickblick.com/products/art-alternatives-artists-sketch-box-with-palette/)
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: maplegrovemusic on 29 Jan 2015, 02:10 am
Hi Guys , Just put my xls 2500 monoblocks back in my system after a couple of weeks of using the ncores. Why i do not sell the ncores is going through my mind again . I purchased a pair of 4 pole nuetrik connectors for use with my mogami wiring . I  seen someone posted a link to a nuetrik guide awhile back . I cannot figure out how to do it though . There was nothing about bi wiring stated. I hooked the wires up wrong and got a god awful noise . I assumed i needed to hook up one positive to the 1+ slot and the other positive to the 2+ slot and the same for the negative. But it is not correct . Cannot find any useful info on google . Is it even possible to biwire with nuetriks. if not can i still use the 4 pole connectors?

Any one have any answers? Thanks,mike.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: maplegrovemusic on 29 Jan 2015, 02:12 am
Those boxes look pretty spiffy . I would bet if you closed them up and drilled a hole in the top for loading the bb's you could probably get another 20% more in ?
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Occam on 29 Jan 2015, 02:58 am
Hi Guys , Just put my xls 2500 monoblocks back in my system after a couple of weeks of using the ncores. Why i do not sell the ncores is going through my mind again .

If you subjectively prefer the XLS (via the pos binding posts, no less) to the Ncore 400, I'd think you've not adequately addressed the necessity for the proper subjective choices  of internal mains, speaker and input signal wiring in its implementation.

Quote
I purchased a pair of 4 pole nuetrik connectors for use with my mogami wiring . I  seen someone posted a link to a nuetrik guide awhile back . I cannot figure out how to do it though . There was nothing about bi wiring stated. I hooked the wires up wrong and got a god awful noise . I assumed i needed to hook up one positive to the 1+ slot and the other positive to the 2+ slot and the same for the negative. But it is not correct . Cannot find any useful info on google . Is it even possible to biwire with nuetriks. if not can i still use the 4 pole connectors?

Any one have any answers? Thanks,mike.

RTFM - You are bridging, NOT Bi-amping

Bridge-Mono Mode
Bridge-Mono Mode delivers the power of both amp channels into a single 8 or
4 ohm load.
Before you get started ensure that you:
1. Connect signal source to Channel 1 only using either the XLR, ¼ Inch, or
RCA connectors.
2. Connect the speaker as shown.
a. If using the binding post outputs, connect the positive terminal of the
speaker to the positive terminal of Channel 1 and the negative terminal of
the speaker to the positive terminal of Channel 2.
b. If using a Speakon® connector, connect the positive terminal of the speaker to 1+ and the negative terminal to 2+.
Plug the connector into the Channel 1 output only.
Follow these quick steps to confi gure the amplifi er for “Bridge Mode”:
1. Hold the “Mode/Menu” button down for 3 sec until the LCD screen displays “Amp Mode <More>”.
2. Press the “Mode/Menu” button to begin confi guring the Amp Mode.
3. Press the “Next” button until the LCD screen reads “Mode: Bridge”.
4. Press the “Mode/Menu” button to confi rm your selection.
5. Now press the “Next” button until the LCD screen displays “Bypass”. Press the “Mode/Menu” button to confi rm your selection. The LCD screen should now read
“Bridge Bypass”.

(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=113921)

EDIT: If you want to bi-wire, even bi-wire a bridged amp, simply connect on the Neutrik side, both the high and low (+) wires to the appropriate pin, and the high and low (-) wires to the appropriate Neutrik pin
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: maplegrovemusic on 29 Jan 2015, 03:05 am
Looking for actual nuetrik connector schematics for bi wiring .I need to properly assemble the nuetrik connectors to my 4 wire mogami wires.When using the binding posts two are used as i am currently doing . When using the nuetriks are both channel one and two used when bridging? or is it just one connector used ?
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: maplegrovemusic on 29 Jan 2015, 03:36 am
so it looks like i use just speakon number one on the crown . the only other logical way of connecting my 4 conductor mogami to the 4 pole nuetrik is to do a positive and negative wire for the lows to 1+ and 1- on the neutrik and the highs would go to 2+ and 2- . Does this sound right ? is anyone using a neutrik with 4 conductor wiring ?
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: mjosef on 29 Jan 2015, 06:26 am
Not exactly sure what you are trying to do...but, there is always the Crown Application Guide to consult...see from page 10 onwards...
http://www.crownaudio.com/media/pdf/133472.pdf (http://www.crownaudio.com/media/pdf/133472.pdf)
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: jk@home on 29 Jan 2015, 12:23 pm
Those boxes look pretty spiffy . I would bet if you closed them up and drilled a hole in the top for loading the bb's you could probably get another 20% more in ?

I filled just to the top of the dividers with BBs (8 lbs) and a little sand and got a touch over 11 lbs. total.

 
so it looks like i use just speakon number one on the crown . the only other logical way of connecting my 4 conductor mogami to the 4 pole nuetrik is to do a positive and negative wire for the lows to 1+ and 1- on the neutrik and the highs would go to 2+ and 2- . Does this sound right ? is anyone using a neutrik with 4 conductor wiring ?

I'm using 4 conductor wire, but had the Speakons in the bridged config. Maybe if you are using two amps, and have bi-wire speakers, then the above scenario would work if you set each amp for "input-y" (instead of stereo), using just one input?

http://www.crownaudio.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=4687 (http://www.crownaudio.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=4687)
 

 
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: barryso on 29 Jan 2015, 11:26 pm
Just curious if anyone can compare the Crown xls amp to the TPA3116 class d amp.  My system sounds very nice with the TPA3116 but it doesn't put out enough power to handle higher volume or dynamics.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: steve f on 30 Jan 2015, 04:58 pm
Barryso, I have no familiarity with the TPA amp chip. The big question is why bother?

The Crowns are good sounding, cheap, and very powerful. IMO the big advantage of Class D is that a lot of power is easily obtainable, with low distortion. There is so much efficient power available that you can drive your speakers without clipping waveforms. It can't be done with transformer coupled tubes at all. To get the same power from a Class A/AB will cost over ten times as much. I know it's tempting to say I don't need a lot of power, but once you experience a system that's clean, I'm sure you will be impressed. The sound is effortless.

If you buy the Crown, and don't like it, you can resell it at small loss, or repurpose it for subwoofers.

steve
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Mojo Warrior on 30 Jan 2015, 08:25 pm
I used the Pomonas, fits perfectly. On the inside of the amp, I left out those plastic washers that comes with these posts, my buddy Rex told me to do. These are about $10 each at Mouser.


There seems to be several Pomona binding posts listed.

Can you post a link to the parts number?
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Odal3 on 31 Jan 2015, 01:23 am
I asked the same question a while back on this thread, but now have both amps. I listen to both the TPA3116 and Crown XLS 2000 amps on a daily basis and I really like the sound of both. I think either amp is one of the great deals in audio - excellent performance for the money. If you like the TPA amps, you will not be disappointed moving from the 2 x 50w TPA boards to the much more powerful Crown - especially if you have hard to drive speakers and needs some more power. However, if you ask the question if the Crown is better or worse, my answer would be somewhere between I don't know, and it depends.

As the TPA3116 is a diy's dream at ~$15 - 40 per board, with multiple versions and mods out there, performance varies a lot. So to give you a point of reference here are two comparisons using stock boards: a stock version of a Sure TPA3110 board using laptop brick sounds a bit harsh and digital, and the Crown easily beats it. A stock TPA 3116 audiobah board (the green one) with an Astron power supply on the other hand is a different story. In my system and my "non-audiophile" ears, I find that I prefer the TPA3116 board from high mids and up (but not by much since the HF on the Crown is really good too), while the Crown gets the upper hand on mids and down and especially on the control and authority of the bass, which shouldn't come as a surprise with several hundred more Watts to cover peaks. So to me it's not matter of one over the other - I like both and each shine and have strengths depending on the system and preferred volume level...which have lead to that I'm constantly rotating them in and out. At the moment I use the TPA3116 for the top and the crown for the bottom.

If you can't find a used one, many of the larger music store chains (guitar center, etc.) have great return policies, so you should just try one out and let us know how you like it.

I'd also be curious to hear Sallis thougts on the Crown (modded and stock) vs his modded TDA7297 vs a more tricked out TPA3116.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Folsom on 31 Jan 2015, 01:58 am
I had a TPA3116 with Elna Silmic II caps, Blackgate N input caps (all 4), and a nice PSU that made a substantial difference like the caps. Another one I put into a little box for a ceramic studio with some speakers that were free. My understanding is OSCON's on the 3116 might bring the detail around to be comparable to the XLS; prior to, even with good caps, I didn't get the detail when I gave an XLS a few tracks.

Overall I don't think the TPA3116 is nearly as good. But we're talking about a much less powerful amplifier so it doesn't necessarily matter to anyone. My TPA3116 sounded good, but it just didn't have the authority, the feeling of force. It lacked life for me. The character of the music wasn't as prevalent. It performs well, measures well, etc, but wasn't an amp I knew I could indefinitely feel a form of satisfaction with.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: barryso on 31 Jan 2015, 02:58 am
Thanks for the replies, it really helps.

The TPA3116 I'm using is a bone stock blue/black board.  It was considered one of the better sounding stock boards until the green and Sure boards were released.  Ran it with a small laptop brick at first and it was OK sounding and then upgraded to a brick that put out far more amperage.  The additional amperage cleaned up the sound nicely.

Odal3, your Astron power supply with the green board is probably even better yet.  You're probably getting better mids and highs than my rig so that gives me a reasonable idea of where the Crown stands.   Sounds like the it would be a pretty good fit.

The authority improvement that Salis Audio mentioned with the Crown is probably the main motivation for an upgrade.  A bit more control of the woofers and an increase in dynamics would make a huge difference.

Many thanks for the descriptions and the help.



Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: OzarkTom on 31 Jan 2015, 03:13 am
The Crown amp has responded very well with every tweak that I have made. What was a forward sounding amp has now become a more laid back amp. With the cost of the used amp and all the mods, it still cost me less than $500.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: jk@home on 31 Jan 2015, 01:37 pm

There seems to be several Pomona binding posts listed.

Can you post a link to the parts number?

Pretty sure it is the 3770 series, with the Gold Plated Tellurium Copper plating. I have come to the conclusion that the speakons didn't improve the sound of my amps compared to the "craptastic" binding posts and bare wire. So I have ordered some Pomonas to mod. 3770-0 for black, 3770-2 for red.

http://www.pomonaelectronics.com/pdf/d3750-3760-3770_101.pdf (http://www.pomonaelectronics.com/pdf/d3750-3760-3770_101.pdf)

Also, has anyone replaced the steel nut and washer on the Pomonas with something else, like copper or stainless steel?
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: gcos on 31 Jan 2015, 01:43 pm
I am thinking of replacing the plate amp on my Velodyne DLS5000 sub with an external amp. It has a 15" woofer. Which Crown amp would you guys recommend ?
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: rodge827 on 1 Feb 2015, 03:24 am
I am thinking of replacing the plate amp on my Velodyne DLS5000 sub with an external amp. It has a 15" woofer. Which Crown amp would you guys recommend ?

Go with the most power you can afford!
or
Match the wattage on the plate amp to the XLS that is equivalent.

 
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Folsom on 1 Feb 2015, 03:27 am
Pretty sure it is the 3770 series, with the Gold Plated Tellurium Copper plating. I have come to the conclusion that the speakons didn't improve the sound of my amps compared to the "craptastic" binding posts and bare wire. So I have ordered some Pomonas to mod. 3770-0 for black, 3770-2 for red.

http://www.pomonaelectronics.com/pdf/d3750-3760-3770_101.pdf (http://www.pomonaelectronics.com/pdf/d3750-3760-3770_101.pdf)

Also, has anyone replaced the steel nut and washer on the Pomonas with something else, like copper or stainless steel?

McMaster Carr has copper-Nicole nuts. The amp needs a washer per post, you can get plastic ones from them, too.

I found some actual copper nuts for tattoo guns, but they're funky and may not fit.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: OzarkTom on 1 Feb 2015, 03:48 am
McMaster Carr has copper-Nicole nuts. The amp needs a washer per post, you can get plastic ones from them, too.

I found some actual copper nuts for tattoo guns, but they're funky and may not fit.

Does anyone know what size nuts those are? I went to Radio Shack today and all they could do was send me to Amazon.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Folsom on 1 Feb 2015, 04:11 am
8-32
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: jk@home on 1 Feb 2015, 12:06 pm
McMaster Carr has copper-Nicole nuts. The amp needs a washer per post, you can get plastic ones from them, too.

I found some actual copper nuts for tattoo guns, but they're funky and may not fit.

Thanks, I'll check it out. I remember the TXV sensing bulb strapping mounts I used in the HVAC trade may of been copper screws and nuts, will dig some up but may not be the right size/thread.

Brass or stainless would probably be OK too.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: roscoeiii on 1 Feb 2015, 08:37 pm
Jackman came by yesterday and we had a chance to compare the XLS with and without the iTube in the chain. First off,  we weren't hearing any negative impact of having it in the chain. And three main positive contributions were present: 1) better imaging (again,  not a strength  of my system). The main contribution to the imaging was from the tube itself; impact of the 3d circuit was noticeable but small. 2) the sound was also more fleshed out with the tube. More meat on the bones. A bit richer. 3) The sound was less fatiguing. Not that the XLS was overly fatiguing,  but with the tube not in the system my Spider Sense was telling me that could be an issue during long listening sessions or with certain poorly mastered recordings.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: OzarkTom on 1 Feb 2015, 10:23 pm
Jackman came by yesterday and we had a chance to compare the XLS with and without the iTube in the chain. First off,  we weren't hearing any negative impact of having it in the chain. And three main positive contributions were present: 1) better imaging (again,  not a strength  of my system). The main contribution to the imaging was from the tube itself; impact of the 3d circuit was noticeable but small. 2) the sound was also more fleshed out with the tube. More meat on the bones. A bit richer. 3) The sound was less fatiguing. Not that the XLS was overly fatiguing,  but with the tube not in the system my Spider Sense was telling me that could be an issue during long listening sessions or with certain poorly mastered recordings.

Everything will improve once the Itube is cryo'd. It will almost double the performance.

And I found this interesting tidbit from a Tannoy review. Cryo could become the wave of the future for loudspeaker components if companies follow what Tannoy is doing.  :thumb:

http://dagogo.com/tannoy-prestige-canterbury-gold-reference-speakers-review

According to Tannoy, they didn’t just improve the visual aesthetics, but made significant improvements by developing “new cone materials, new high frequency compression diaphragms, upgraded crossovers and extensive use of Deep Cryogenic Treatment” on Prestige GR models. I can tell you that this isn’t just hyperbole, because I have heard the end product.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Tomy2Tone on 1 Feb 2015, 10:32 pm
Everything will improve once the Itube is cryo'd. It will almost double the performance.

And I found this interesting tidbit from a Tannoy review. Cryo could become the wave of the future for loudspeaker components if companies follow what Tannoy is doing.  :thumb:

http://dagogo.com/tannoy-prestige-canterbury-gold-reference-speakers-review

According to Tannoy, they didn’t just improve the visual aesthetics, but made significant improvements by developing “new cone materials, new high frequency compression diaphragms, upgraded crossovers and extensive use of Deep Cryogenic Treatment” on Prestige GR models. I can tell you that this isn’t just hyperbole, because I have heard the end product.

That's pretty cool Tom, thanks for the link.

Did you also get the power supply for the itube cryoed or was it just the itube?
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: OzarkTom on 1 Feb 2015, 10:37 pm
That's pretty cool Tom, thanks for the link.

Did you also get the power supply for the itube cryoed or was it just the itube?

I only got my Itube cryo'd, but the cryoman has cryo'd at least one Astron. But he never got to use it.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Mojo Warrior on 3 Feb 2015, 12:35 am
I recently brought home a Crown XLS 2500 and have been burning it in. Currently feeding it from a DB Systems pre-amp. Sounds very good so far. This week I will be upgrading the woofers of my ESS AMT-1 Towers with Eminence Legend BP-102-4 10" four ohm drivers. While I am inside the speakers I will be replacing the caps on the XO.

Has anyone tried using an Oppo BDP-105 or a Sony HAP-1ZES as a source directly into a Crown XLS using XLR connectors?
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Odal3 on 3 Feb 2015, 01:31 am
I had a TPA3116 with Elna Silmic II caps, Blackgate N input caps (all 4), and a nice PSU that made a substantial difference like the caps. Another one I put into a little box for a ceramic studio with some speakers that were free. My understanding is OSCON's on the 3116 might bring the detail around to be comparable to the XLS; prior to, even with good caps, I didn't get the detail when I gave an XLS a few tracks.

Overall I don't think the TPA3116 is nearly as good. But we're talking about a much less powerful amplifier so it doesn't necessarily matter to anyone. My TPA3116 sounded good, but it just didn't have the authority, the feeling of force. It lacked life for me. The character of the music wasn't as prevalent. It performs well, measures well, etc, but wasn't an amp I knew I could indefinitely feel a form of satisfaction with.

Thanks for sharing!
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: OzarkTom on 3 Feb 2015, 01:32 am
I recently brought home a Crown XLS 2500 and have been burning it in. Currently feeding it from a DB Systems pre-amp. Sounds very good so far. This week I will be upgrading the woofers of my ESS AMT-1 Towers with Eminence Legend BP-102-4 10" four ohm drivers. While I am inside the speakers I will be replacing the caps on the XO.

Has anyone tried using an Oppo BDP-105 or a Sony HAP-1ZES as a source directly into a Crown XLS using XLR connectors?

I have the Sony but only found one of my XLR's. I will try again this weekend to find my other cable.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: jk@home on 4 Feb 2015, 12:56 pm
To the folks here who have replaced the binding posts with Pomonas, I'm assuming one doesn't use the back (inside) plastic spacer. It looks like you could use it on the outside, along with the other spacer, to push the post out further, as the part of the chassis the posts insert into is non-metallic? This would help clearing that little black box on the inside.

On the Pomonas, it appears the securing nut is nickel plated brass, but the star washer, which makes contact with the amp's contact point is steel. All the parts (including the ones that remain on the amp after the mod) appear to be nickel plated steel. So although this mod will improve the amp, probably best not to get too anal about it.

Think I will replace the Pomona’s star washer with a brass one. A gold plated one would even be better, maybe off another brand binding post (we all have a parts bin, right?). I did find some copper #8 flat washers on the net, so one could go there if they chose. To keep the metals similar, I guess a nickel plated brass washer would be best.

Tools for the mod are a #T15 torx bit, a 8mm wrench for the old posts, and a ¼” wrench for the new posts. I used a 2" long, 6d finishing nail, through the post's wire hole, to secure it while tightening the nut on the inside.

A close fitting spade to go with the Pomonas are the Audioquest spade connectors, either the 1414G or 1014G, depending on the wire gauge used.

(http://www.ramelectronics.net/data/default/images/catalog/original/Audioquest_1014-g-kit.jpg)
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: SteveFord on 4 Feb 2015, 10:10 pm
The tour amp has arrived.
Sorry for the delay, I think it's been sitting at the post office without my knowing it.
I'll hook it up tomorrow after work and see what we've got.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: mjosef on 5 Feb 2015, 03:54 am
Looking at the "tracking information" it got to Stewartstown's PO on the 27th, a whole week after I shipped it out on the 20th via 2-day Priority...looks like the PO owes me money, by shipping it regular parcel post.  :evil:
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: SteveFord on 5 Feb 2015, 11:16 pm
Who knows with Post Offices any more.
Okay, I have it hooked up to the upstairs system (Magnepan 1.7s, Well Tempered Classic/Ortofon 2M Black/Jolida JD9 w/ JJ tubes, Sonic Frontiers SFL-2 preamp, everything is hooked into an APC power conditioner and I don't have the sub turned on.
This system will show up anything weird as it's very revealing.

I listened to the Tubes first album to let everything warm up and now have on a copy of Zappa's Apostrophe'.
First the good news: on this system it does everything well: detail, soundstage, imaging, strong bass, good midrange and treble.

The bad part is it sounds harsh compared to what I'm used to which are VTL mono blocks.  It's the refinement in the sound that you pay for, I suppose.
The VTLs have a liquid quality and this amp doesn't, I think that's what it boils down to.
Substituting a Supra LoRad power cord for the supplied cheapie seems to have helped quite a bit.  Owners might want to look into experimenting with power cords to see what they think.

It presents the horizontal soundstage differently; if I owned this amp I'd have to angle my speakers a bit differently as the right one is too far toed in for this amp.

It's an unfair comparison given the cost differential but that's what I'm used to.  It beats the pants off of my old Bryston 3B, DIY ClassD and Hafler and does a better job of detail resolution than the refurbbed Carver pieces that have passed through here.

I suspect that this amp will fare better on the downstairs system.  The preamp is warmer sounding but the speakers are better so I might be wrong.
I will try that either tomorrow night or on Saturday.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: a.wayne on 5 Feb 2015, 11:36 pm
Tried bypassing the APC .......
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: SteveFord on 5 Feb 2015, 11:54 pm
I'll try plugging it into the wall before I move it downstairs and I'll let you know.
I didn't use any cedar pucks or weights but I did rest it on a Gibson Les Paul case which made it more musical.
I couldn't resist.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: a.wayne on 6 Feb 2015, 12:49 am
Which VTL's are you comparing it to ......the refinement comment is interesting, it is one of the major differences between just good and  really  good stuff ...
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Tomy2Tone on 6 Feb 2015, 01:11 am
... but I did rest it on a Gibson Les Paul case which made it more musical.
I couldn't resist.

Nice!   :green:

Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: roscoeiii on 6 Feb 2015, 01:19 am
Which VTL's are you comparing it to ......the refinement comment is interesting, it is one of the major differences between just good and  really  good stuff ...

Yeah,  VTLs are great stuff.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: jk@home on 6 Feb 2015, 01:51 am
Steve, do you still have your MMGs to try this amp on? I would think budget wise, this would be a great amp recommendation for someone building a budget Maggie system.

All the other pro amps that I had tried with my modded MMGs always sounded like crap driving them, even if they were fine with my other speakers. Be nice if this one is different. My MMGs are in the closet, bubble wrapped for another day, or I would check it out myself.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: OzarkTom on 6 Feb 2015, 02:08 am
Have you had the amp on for 24 hours? That will make a difference in the harshness.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: SteveFord on 6 Feb 2015, 02:25 pm
Amp is percolating, VTLs are MB250s with Winged C power tubes and yes, I will try this with the MMGs.
I think it will work out really well with that system as it's kind of dark sounding compared to the 1.7 set up.
Even with all of the tubes in it the Sonic Frontier gear sounds like a (really good) SS preamp so it really needs a tube amp to keep from making your ears shrivel up and fall off.
Some of the mushier SS amps have worked out well with the 1.7 system but then you lose all of the detail that this Crown brings out. 
I'll fool around with this amp some more tomorrow.

I need an inexpensive, temporary amp for the 1.7 system and I was hoping that this would be it.  I'll bet a tube buffer would take the edge off but I don't see a way to insert one in between the amp and the SFL-2. 
It's always something.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: OzarkTom on 6 Feb 2015, 03:02 pm


I need an inexpensive, temporary amp for the 1.7 system and I was hoping that this would be it.  I'll bet a tube buffer would take the edge off but I don't see a way to insert one in between the amp and the SFL-2. 
It's always something.

Changing the stock binding posts also takes some of that edge away.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: rollo on 6 Feb 2015, 03:23 pm
    Gentleman please be advised that all class "D" amps perform their best after being on and connected for 24Hrs minimum. The power supply likes being on a while.
    It would be advisable not to be critical until the amp and cables settle. Most likely the reason we hear the words fatiguing and edge. I would recco that the unit is plugged in for at least 24 hours before any critique.


charles
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: steve f on 6 Feb 2015, 09:08 pm
I've been working on a difficult loudspeaker design, and I'm using two XLS 1500s for a lot of the early listening tests. Being able to dial in crossovers digitally is a nice plus too.

( I like to consider a concept, try a few drivers on hand, or order a couple of drivers and work around them. The process is rather intuitive at this point. After I have a basic premise, I start measurements, and go on from there. Then I work on appearance. After that, the design gets tweaked again. Works for me.)

I am surprised at how good the Class D amps sound. They've  been on 24/7 for a couple of weeks. They have  kicked a couple of well regarded tube and solid state amps to the curb. I never bought into the idea of keeping amps on continuously. I have to eat my words on this one. I'm in agreement with rollo.

steve
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: mjosef on 6 Feb 2015, 11:14 pm
Quote
I need an inexpensive, temporary amp for the 1.7 system and I was hoping that this would be it.

It could very well be...but you will never know by using the RCA in and those banana-speaker-posts out.
XLR-in and SpeakOn-out offered a much improved sound vs what most people on tour and current owners seem content to default to.  At least use an RCA to XLR adapter, and 'observe' for oneself. With the last amp tour (NCores) a RCA-XLR adapter was included which was quite a good one.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: OzarkTom on 6 Feb 2015, 11:30 pm
Pomona binding posts with spades or bananas makes an excellent choice also. Then cryo the amp and it becomes much better. Those  two tweeks costs 75 bucks more. So that will cost a total of $275  or less if you buy it used.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: roscoeiii on 6 Feb 2015, 11:46 pm
It could very well be...but you will never know by using the RCA in and those banana-speaker-posts out.
XLR-in and SpeakOn-out offered a much improved sound vs what most people on tour and current owners seem content to default to.  At least use an RCA to XLR adapter, and 'observe' for oneself. With the last amp tour (NCores) a RCA-XLR adapter was include d which was quite a good one.

Hmmm, rca to xlr adapters eh?
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: mjosef on 6 Feb 2015, 11:48 pm
Yeah, I think the NCore tour one was about $10.

The only time I can recall the sound being anything close to 'edgy' may have been just after power on...after an hour or so it began to gel.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: roscoeiii on 6 Feb 2015, 11:50 pm

I need an inexpensive, temporary amp for the 1.7 system and I was hoping that this would be it.  I'll bet a tube buffer would take the edge off but I don't see a way to insert one in between the amp and the SFL-2. 
It's always something.


I use an iTube in buffer mode with 6 dB gain for just thus reason. And the hotter signal to the XLS also seems to benefit the sound.

Just pop it between the XLS and Sonic Frontiers
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: earsfirst on 7 Feb 2015, 02:16 am
It could very well be...but you will never know by using the RCA in and those banana-speaker-posts out.
XLR-in and SpeakOn-out offered a much improved sound vs what most people on tour and current owners seem content to default to.  At least use an RCA to XLR adapter, and 'observe' for oneself. With the last amp tour (NCores) a RCA-XLR adapter was included which was quite a good one.

Hmmm, rca to xlr adapters eh?

Would you call this a good one? Does it have the right wiring?

Neutrik 3-Pole XLR Male to RCA Female Adapter  $8.99
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1026927-REG/neutrik_na2mpmf_3_pole_xlr_male_to.html/prm/alsVwDtl

Pin 1 and 3: connected to ground
Pin 2: signal 
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: OzarkTom on 7 Feb 2015, 02:25 am
Hmmm, rca to xlr adapters eh?


Would you call this a good one? Does it have the right wiring?

Neutrik 3-Pole XLR Male to RCA Female Adapter  $8.99
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1026927-REG/neutrik_na2mpmf_3_pole_xlr_male_to.html/prm/alsVwDtl

Pin 1 and 3: connected to ground
Pin 2: signal

Those look very similar to the ones that were on the Ncore tour amps. I may order two of those and send them off with the Salis Audio amp to get cryo'd.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: mjosef on 7 Feb 2015, 03:12 am
Those will work alright, dunno about the SQ, the tour ones were black with gold contacts.
Maybe someone will comb through the 30+ pages of the Ncore Listening impressions thread and find the actual ones or the owner of them will stop by here and reveal the source.
Whatever whichever they were they were darn good quality...I couldn't tell the difference with them in-line(with RCA/RCA cable) vs. an actual RCA to XLR cable (both made with same cable).
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: OzarkTom on 7 Feb 2015, 03:23 am
Those will work alright, dunno about the SQ, the tour ones were black with gold contacts.
Maybe someone will comb through the 30+ pages of the Ncore Listening impressions thread and find the actual ones or the owner of them will stop by here and reveal the source.
Whatever whichever they were they were darn good quality...I couldn't tell the difference with them in-line(with RCA/RCA cable) vs. an actual RCA to XLR cable (both made with same cable).

At my place and my buddy Rex's, the XLRs were quite a bit better than with the adapters to RCA on the Ncores.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: jk@home on 7 Feb 2015, 03:42 am
Yeah, usually when one adds extra adapters / connections in a system, it affects the resolution in a bad way.

For giggles and kicks, I had tried going single ended from my preamp, into a high quality Jensen Isomax converting tranny, to the Crown's balanced connections, but found just going from the pre's xlrs (with the converting op amps inside doing the work) sounded better. Probably because of less connections and cables involved.

Also have to say, Magnepans can be pretty finicky with different amp setups. The other pro amps I have (Mackies and Yamahas), didn't sound that good on my MMGs. The Mackies, which were the worst sounding on the Maggies, do just fine in the HT system driving Paradigm Studios.

That said, comparing this $350 amp to high end audiophile amps is interesting reading, but really does the audio cheapskate little good. You know, the guys who have to buy this amp cause of their budget. I would love to see more comparisons with amps like Class D Audio and Emotiva, and other amps in close to the same or slightly more price range.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: SteveFord on 7 Feb 2015, 04:28 am
It's better than the Class D amp by a wide margin.  I had one of them here for a visit on the same system and it was kind of lackluster so I was glad that I didn't get caught up in all of the fervor of the Class D thread.
I have no experience with Emotiva gear so can't comment on that one.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: mjosef on 7 Feb 2015, 04:52 am
At my place and my buddy Rex's, the XLRs were quite a bit better than with the adapters to RCA on the Ncores.

Was it the same adapters I am talking about?
As in audio there will always be differing opinions/impressions.  Just like your impressions of the Ncores at your place and now vs. the XLS. WHat one man leans to another may lean away from.
And who is this REX you constantly invoke? I had a dog named Rex once. Not that I am associating your friend with same. But you keep reciting his name so the mind goes there. Apologies if offended
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: mjosef on 7 Feb 2015, 04:57 am
Quote
I would love to see more comparisons with amps like Class D Audio and Emotiva, and other amps in close to the same or slightly more price range.

Guess you missed my take on the Class D Audio vs XLS...made the Class D Audio sound like a curtain was over the sound.

Opps, I see Steve Ford heard what I heard. lol
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: jk@home on 7 Feb 2015, 01:21 pm
Guess you missed my take on the Class D Audio vs XLS...made the Class D Audio sound like a curtain was over the sound.

Opps, I see Steve Ford heard what I heard. lol

Thanks, I had seriously entertained the Class D audio stuff, even corresponded with the man.

Got the Pomonas installed yesterday, easy mod. Hopefully today the mail will deliver the new spades I need to get things going again.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: OzarkTom on 7 Feb 2015, 02:06 pm
Was it the same adapters I am talking about?
As in audio there will always be differing opinions/impressions.  Just like your impressions of the Ncores at your place and now vs. the XLS. WHat one man leans to another may lean away from.
And who is this REX you constantly invoke? I had a dog named Rex once. Not that I am associating your friend with same. But you keep reciting his name so the mind goes there. Apologies if offended

Yes, those were the same since we heard the tour amps here and at Rex's. I have known Rex since 1981 and he is no dog. He probably has owned more systems than anyone else here on AC. He is very passionate about audio, and loves to try various components. He is tailspinrex here on AC but never posts. I talk to him 3-4 times a week, he is truly a great friend even if he was not an audio buddy.

I see used Ncores up for sale here on AC and Audiogon all the time, so Rex and I aren't the only ones that did not like them. There were plenty of others on the Ncore tour that did not also.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: SteveFord on 7 Feb 2015, 03:52 pm
The great 1.7 test continues.
Amp left on for 24 hours.

Plugged directly into the wall: smoother sounding but it lost the "sharpness" to the sound, seems to be some loss of detail compared to being plugged into the APC
XLR to RCA adaptors, plugged into wall - knocked off some more of the details and highs
XLR to RCA adaptors, plugged into power conditioner - brought back some of the details and highs
Plugged into APC, RCA to RCA - best of the bunch.
If there was any difference in never turning this amp off it's subtle, at least in my house.

All variations done with the Supra LoRad power cord instead of the supplied one.

Conclusion: it's a forward sounding amplifier which is not surprising as it's made for PA gear and the Sonic Frontiers is a forward sounding preamplifier so it's not the ideal pairing. 
For what it's worth, the solid state amps that worked best with this system were a refurbished Carver and a refurbished Harman Kardon Citation.  Neither one had the resolution of this Crown but the sound was smoother so there was no listener fatigue.
3.7s and MMGs coming up next.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: roscoeiii on 7 Feb 2015, 04:04 pm
Yeah jackman and I heard something similar. Forward pre with this amp wasn't the best  match.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Mojo Warrior on 7 Feb 2015, 05:06 pm
Yeah, usually when one adds extra adapters / connections in a system, it affects the resolution in a bad way.

For giggles and kicks, I had tried going single ended from my preamp, into a high quality Jensen Isomax converting tranny, to the Crown's balanced connections, but found just going from the pre's xlrs (with the converting op amps inside doing the work) sounded better. Probably because of less connections and cables involved.

Also have to say, Magnepans can be pretty finicky with different amp setups. The other pro amps I have (Mackies and Yamahas), didn't sound that good on my MMGs. The Mackies, which were the worst sounding on the Maggies, do just fine in the HT system driving Paradigm Studios.

That said, comparing this $350 amp to high end audiophile amps is interesting reading, but really does the audio cheapskate little good. You know, the guys who have to buy this amp cause of their budget. I would love to see more comparisons with amps like Class D Audio and Emotiva, and other amps in close to the same or slightly more price range.


I am surprised at how good the Class D amps sound. They've  been on 24/7 for a couple of weeks. They have  kicked a couple of well regarded tube and solid state amps to the curb. I never bought into the idea of keeping amps on continuously. I have to eat my words on this one. I'm in agreement with rollo.

steve

+1

I would like to see more "apples to apples" comparisons. There seems to be general agreement that the Crown XLS series is a budget amplifier winner. I am very curious how other Pro amplifiers in the same price range perform. The Behringer iNuke DSP series sell for about half the price of the Crowns, have the same basic Class D design and include DSP which would be a great feature in equalizing speakers and room deviations, which would make a much, much greater SQ improvement than binding posts and power cords. I am very tempted to buy the Behringer but currently I am up to my earlobes with amplifiers.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: OzarkTom on 7 Feb 2015, 05:41 pm


I would like to see more "apples to apples" comparisons. There seems to be general agreement that the Crown XLS series is a budget amplifier winner. I am very curious how other Pro amplifiers in the same price range perform. The Behringer iNuke DSP series sell for about half the price of the Crowns, have the same basic Class D design and include DSP which would be a great feature in equalizing speakers and room deviations, which would make a much, much greater SQ improvement than binding posts and power cords. I am very tempted to buy the Behringer but currently I am up to my earlobes with amplifiers.

I would try one before I bought it, most pro amps do not sound this good. I tried out a Peavey amp a couple or three years ago, modified by TRL, but the TBI sounded better.  I have a strong feeling the Drivecore chip is the strength of these Crown amps. Go on searchtempest.com to find a used 1500 for 150-200 bucks.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: SteveFord on 7 Feb 2015, 06:04 pm
The Big System:
Magnepan 3.7s, deHavilland Ultraverve3 preamp, Well Tempered Square motor/Ortofon 2M Black cartridge, Jolida JD9 phono pre w/ JJ tubes, SVS subwoofer

The speakers are better than the 1.7s and the preamp is more of your traditional smooth tube sound.  Picture Perry Como instead of Alice Cooper.
I used a Supra LoRad power cord directly into the wall, RCA to RCA and here's the good:
detail, width of soundstage, highs
here's the bad:
depth of soundstage, bass is artificial, pronounced and kind of thuddy sounding (to use an audiophile term).
It wouldn't be much of a review without using the word "palpable" so there, I've used it.

Let's try plugging it into an APC power conditioner:
the bass no longer stuck out like a sore thumb but it also wiped out the top end.
Okay, APC and XLR to RCA:
the overall sound was a bit duller than before
Final attempt, plug into the wall with the XLR to RCA:
probably the best of the bunch for long term listening.
The bass wasn't as pronounced as when it was just plugged into the wall using the RCA to RCA but the top end took a hit as well which wasn't so good.  If you could dial the bass down a notch or two I'd say into the wall, RCA to RCA would be the way to go. 

While I'm on a roll, onto the MMGs.  That preamp has tone controls so I think I can get what I'm after (he says, hopefully).

Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: roscoeiii on 7 Feb 2015, 06:09 pm
Steve, what gain are you using on the XLS? I prefer mine at 2 or 3  o'clock. Some like it at noon.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: poseidonsvoice on 7 Feb 2015, 06:27 pm
Gents, I'm thinking of getting a tube preamp and running my Dual Core on an input similar to what Tomy2Tone is doing.

Would this preamp be a good choice for the Crown XLS amplifier as far as impedance matching and output?

http://www.transcendentsound.com/Transcendent/Masterpiece.html


(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=112029)


(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=112030)

Chris

Chris,

Sorry about resurrecting the old post, but also consider Doc B's Bee Pre preamplifier kit as well. Whether you go for Transcendent or Bottlehead, you'll have a great, fun design to listen to. I'm sure there are other 300B based preamps but I don't want to derail the thread any further. And don't forget...what you choose for the volume control, whether it's an ALPS, a stepped attenuator, TVC's or LDR (like Tortuga) can have a STRONG influence on the final sound.


(http://bottleheadnginx.bottleheadcorp.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/12/beequiet_step_att2.jpg)


http://bottlehead.com/?product=beepre-300b-preamplifier-kit

Best,
Anand.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Mojo Warrior on 7 Feb 2015, 06:28 pm
I would try one before I bought it, most pro amps do not sound this good. I tried out a Peavey amp a couple or three years ago, modified by TRL, but the TBI sounded better.  I have a strong feeling the Drivecore chip is the strength of these Crown amps. Go on searchtempest.com to find a used 1500 for 150-200 bucks.

I recently acquired an XLS 2500 and I am very pleased with the sound. Both Crown and Behringer are very protective about the identification of the chips they use. "Drivecore" is a proprietary brand/name of a chip sourced from TI, I believe. They are probably manufactured and sold in the hundreds of thousands, if not millions. A head to head comparison of Crown and Behringer may shed even more light on the similarities and differences. It makes me wonder if the chips are labeled or the identity is obscured.

If I have learned anything from owning Drivecore, TPA2024 and TDA3116D2 chip based amps is they are all excellent amps and any differences in SQ are subtle.

I am very curious if any others have tried the iNuke with DSP and their opinions, positive or negative. Like I said, I am currently up to my ears in amplifiers. The DSP is a compelling feature and at half the price. Properly executed amplifiers, should not add anything to the sound of the source. Theoretically, pro amps should be neutral sounding but offer plenty of power and headroom. 


EDIT:  I spoke to a pro audio service technician and the bottom line is the Behringers are built with the absolute lowest cost components to achieve their price point. If they develop problems they are basically "disposable" as parts have been typically unavailable. Consequently, the failure rate is much higher. If the unit fails and is under warranty, Behringer usually replaces the amp.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: SteveFord on 7 Feb 2015, 06:48 pm
Gain: around 12:00 with the SF, 2:00 with the deHavilland

Last One
MMGs, CC5 center channel driven by refurbed Bryston 3B, modified Carver C-1 preamp, Oppo CD player, Yaqin tube buffer
Crown RCA to RCA plugged right into the wall

NAILED IT!!!
I don't know if it's the preamp or the speakers but this one is just right.  I suspect it's a combination of both.
Tone controls and Sonic Holography can come in handy.
It sounds really good - clear, the bass isn't thudding away like crazy, it's not all harsh and grainy, it just sounds right in this system.
If that Hafler doesn't drive me insane upstairs I'll purchase a Crown for the MMGs and use the Hafler for a stopgap amp until I purchase another set of tube mono blocks to replace the set I sold to buy that Martin guitar I'm so fond of.

I would like to thank the owner for allowing me to participate in this tour.
I learned a few things with all of the screwing around with it and it's always fun to hear new things and see if you can't figure out where they'll fit in.  It's the horses for courses bit.
I'll send a PM to the next victim but won't be able to mail it until next Saturday. 
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: roscoeiii on 7 Feb 2015, 07:21 pm
Said  it before, will say it again: synergy is everything.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: zapper7 on 7 Feb 2015, 07:45 pm
Hey Guys,

I purchased 2 Crown XLS2500 amps a month ago and did the binding post mod so I can fit the spades and bananas I have. They have been on all the time and operating over 200 hrs at this point.

System:
Wadia 170 dock into a Bel Canto DAC3 running the amps being considered. Kimber 10TC for bass and Tara Labs Master Gen 1 for the mids and highs. Speakers are the NHT T6 towers that are an 8 ohm load at 87db and which require bi-amping given their separate upper and lower cabinets. The comparisons are done on the top section of the T6 speakers running with no limiting crossover on the bottom frequencies. I had a feeling the top sections of the speakers will reveal what are the best and worst attributes of each amp as the bottom frequencies are where most all class d amps shine anyway.

Amps Compared:
Crown XLS2500, a Class D CDA1000 kit doing 500w x 2 into 8 ohms, and a DAC Cherry Classic amp. All running with Wegerzyn 12 gage power cord directly into separate dedicated 30a circuits. I enjoy my music at levels between 80 and 100 on my Bel Canto, so as loud as the system components can play well in most cases.

Overall Power:
It is clear that the Class D although rated the highest does not have the power to keep up with the other 2 at the same volume level. The Crown is set at (-) 2 clicks from max to match the output of the Cherry. Also the Class D in my system has a higher pitched hmm while the other 2 are dead quiet, which is impressive give the power the Crown and Cherry have.
The Cherry is a very well designed and constructed amp and the first time I have owned one.

The track notes: (I like a regular variety of modern music, although not the best recordings in some cases);

Lithium = Evanescence:
XLS = dynamic, semi-lush sound, good retrieval of music
Class D = mellow, thinner retrieval, less dynamics, small stage
Cherry = lush, big stage, good dynamics, good retrieval
#1 = Cherry-XLS-Class D
A thinner recording requiring the best amp to sound good

Fire in the Rain = Adele:
XLS = slightly hot, tall stage, dynamic but slight veil on music
Class D = pleasant, nice tone, slight veil, good bass
Cherry = good tone, good retrieval, air, big stage, sounds “right”
#1 = Cherry-Class D-XLS
Big recording rewarding those amps with a more neutral presentation

Best I Can = Queensryche, 24bit recording:
XLS = good stage, clear, dynamic, nice tone
Class D = smaller stage, veil, mellow, no air
Cherry = good bass, excellent retrieval, open & airy, dynamic
#1 = Cherry-XLS-Class D
A good higher rez recording with a lot going on in the music rewarding amps with the best space-stage-openness

Awake and Alive = Skillet:
XLS = dynamic, nice stage, slightly compressed, not great tone or air
Class D = slightly veil and thin, smaller stage, good bass, slightly compressed
Cherry = big stage, dynamic, good tone, air
#1 = Cherry-Class D-XLS
Compressed modern recording giving the advantage to amps being more open and bringing out the individual instruments


Unbreak My Heart = Tony Braxton:
XLS = nice stage, good bass, slight air, dynamic
Class D = polite, thinner sound, small stage, slight veil, blotted bass
Cherry = smooth, big stage, lush, open airy, good tone
#1 = Cherry-XLS-Class D
Good recording with an overall warmer tone making it pretty easy on an amp


Given the price difference I expected to the Cherry to excel. It is the most powerful and best sounding amp I have had in my system. I was happy how well the other 2 stood against the Cherry, but I believe the Class D would pair well with a more efficient/dynamic sounding speaker given its more laid-back presentation while the XLS would do better with speakers having a warmer signature as the dynamics and forward presentation is the amp’s personality as I heard it. The Cherry and Class D have 1000+ hrs while the XLS amps are new so they may settle more than the 200 hrs I have on them. I am aware of the other mods being done that would possibly get the XLS towards the Cherry, or I can just stick with the Cherry.

I will try bridging the XLS against the Cherry to see if I can get a more open and better toned sound out of the music, my adjectives here as more of a musician.

Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: zapper7 on 7 Feb 2015, 07:47 pm
Wow, this is a hot topic today with more than 1 review, God Bless the weekends. :thumb:
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: DaveC113 on 7 Feb 2015, 07:53 pm
Thanks for the reports SteveFord!  :thumb:

It is interesting to hear about everyone's experience with the Crown.

After I recover from the holidays (yes, still swamped  :green:) and get my 2014 books taken care of I will do the RCA and IEC jack mods and replace the steel straps for the binding posts with copper wire. I think this will get rid of any remaining grain from the poor quality connectors and steel "wiring" associated with them.... yes, it's a lot of work/expense for a ~$250 amp but I think the results will be well worth it. There is very good synergy happening in my system with the Crown amp, much of it has to do with the high gain, full bodied tube preamp I'm using, but I also think that my Omega speakers are a good load for it, no crossover and easy to drive.

edit: thanks to you as well zapper7!  :thumb:
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Tomy2Tone on 7 Feb 2015, 10:14 pm
Thanks Steve and Zapper for some great feedback!
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Tomy2Tone on 7 Feb 2015, 10:15 pm
Just an update on where the tour is...and is going.


jtsnead- MD

Freo-1- MA

Peter J- ID

S Clark- TX

gregfisk- WA

Bill of NY

Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: SteveFord on 7 Feb 2015, 10:26 pm
One final note on how it all worked out - the Hafler turned out to be a really good match for the Sonic Frontiers preamp. 
I just chucked it onto my wife's MMG system where it sounded pretty muddy and cruddy but upstairs it sounds just right.  Instead of muddy and cruddy it's full bodied.
You never know until you try it.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: SteveFord on 7 Feb 2015, 11:29 pm
Everybody is bowing out.
Peter J, are you still in?
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: a.wayne on 8 Feb 2015, 12:12 am
Interesting to see if Freo likes the extra power .......
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: jk@home on 8 Feb 2015, 12:17 am
Thanks Steve and Zapper for some great feedback!

+1!

Regarding the iNuke, I'm pretty sure the fan is much louder, not sure if it can be modded.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: zapper7 on 8 Feb 2015, 01:05 am
As much as I agree with comparing to the other pro audio amps, I believe the majority are looking to replace actual audio amps with less power (of course) with these great pro finds.

That's why I made sure the Cherry was in the line-up as the audiophile grade amp for comparison. It is the not-normal audiophile amp with its great power and quite good sound.

Right now I am making all changes possible here to make the crowns sound better, ....still going on...
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: zapper7 on 8 Feb 2015, 01:07 am
The bridged Crowns did not do as expected...no change the in actual sound of that amp, I do like the power but...
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: zapper7 on 8 Feb 2015, 01:13 am
jk@home,

If you can hear the fan, ,,, no disrespect....but maybe pro amps are not for you.... they are the best of best for power and great volume listening, I can't hear anything in my room once the system is going but great music and synergy between equipment, ..which is what we are conversing about...right
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: OzarkTom on 8 Feb 2015, 01:13 am
Everybody is bowing out.
Peter J, are you still in?

Did Freo back out?
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Freo-1 on 8 Feb 2015, 01:15 am
Yes, for the time being.  I'm going on leave in a week.  I thought it would have come up this way before now.  Maybe I can get in later after I get back.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Peter J on 8 Feb 2015, 01:41 am
Everybody is bowing out.
Peter J, are you still in?

I'm still in.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Mojo Warrior on 8 Feb 2015, 02:41 am
+1!

Regarding the iNuke, I'm pretty sure the fan is much louder, not sure if it can be modded.

There is no local Behringer dealer where I could demo the amp. I suspect that under "normal" home audio conditions that the amp probably does not generate enough heat to require a fan.  The fan in my Crown XLS 2500 is not noticeable when listening to music. I was hoping that Crown would upgrade the XLS line with DSP at CES last month. The DSP modules must be dirt cheap.

If you know the fan is much louder then you also know that it can be modded with a much quieter fan. E-Z, P-Z. That would void the warranty.  I would not be afraid to replace a small fan if it was audible. After all, much of this thread involves modded Crown XLS amps. My interest is primarily in SQ and the "best bang for the buck".
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: jk@home on 8 Feb 2015, 03:16 am
jk@home,

If you can hear the fan, ,,, no disrespect....but maybe pro amps are not for you.... they are the best of best for power and great volume listening, I can't hear anything in my room once the system is going but great music and synergy between equipment, ..which is what we are conversing about...right

I have two 1500s side by side between my speakers and can not hear the fans either...I was referring to the INuke amps, which I have never heard, but have read on the net that they have very loud fans.

Right now, ALL amps I have running in the house are proamps. The Mackies in the HT have loud fans, but are in a closet. The Yamaha P series, also in a closet, but  I have never heard the fans come on with those, and they are driving box and IB subs. So I'm with you on proamps. :thumb:



Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: a.wayne on 8 Feb 2015, 03:20 am
Yes, for the time being.  I'm going on leave in a week.  I thought it would have come up this way before now.  Maybe I can get in later after I get back.


Leave , priorities man , priorities , how could you ...... :D
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Mojo Warrior on 8 Feb 2015, 03:39 am
As much as I agree with comparing to the other pro audio amps, I believe the majority are looking to replace actual audio amps with less power (of course) with these great pro finds.

That's why I made sure the Cherry was in the line-up as the audiophile grade amp for comparison. It is the not-normal audiophile amp with its great power and quite good sound.

Right now I am making all changes possible here to make the crowns sound better, ....still going on...

If I had a table saw, I would try making a wood enclosure to replace as much metal and plastic as practical.  It would certainly look better if not sound better/different.

Also, it seems that balanced XLR connectors yield superior (much more gain [14dB?] and better noise rejection) sound but I don't have any sources with balanced XLR outputs. But I am considering adding an Oppo BDP-105 which does have balanced XLR outputs.

I am not familiar with the Speakons but they seem to be an industry standard.  I should call an audio professional on Monday and ask if Neutrik connectors are the way to go. It would not be too expensive to have them hook up some Mogami 14 gauge Coax to Neutrik connectors vs replacing the binding posts. Currently, I have the 14g Mogami terminated in some other locking connector (cannot recall the name) that fits banana posts. The 14g Coax was recommended by Eric Alexander of Tekton.

 :scratch:
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: rajacat on 8 Feb 2015, 04:52 am
Has anybody used the XLS in an active system? I was wondering whether the extra dac in the system affect the sound quality to the extent that it's audible. It would be nice if the The PureBand™ Crossover System could be bypassed.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: zapper7 on 8 Feb 2015, 03:26 pm
In Bridged mode the XLS does have more power and sounded ever so slightly better, but then I would need 4 of them.

That might be going a little to far.

Anyway I am letting them continue to pile up hours to see if I can get them closer to the Cherry sound.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Mojo Warrior on 9 Feb 2015, 06:55 pm
 :duh:
Changing the stock binding posts also takes some of that edge away.

Has anyone tried unscrewing the Speakon partially and attaching bare speaker wire through the hole in the binding post? IIRC bare wire is supposed to be the "best sounding" speaker cable connection. Or is that too simple?      :duh:

Today I called Performance Audio in SLC and was told, unequivocally that there is no measurable or audible difference in SpeakOn connectors. They are especially beneficial in situations that require frequent changes in speaker cables. In concert halls and recording studios they are commonly employed. Dubious that replacing with binding posts would produce a reproducible "improvement" in SQ.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: SteveFord on 9 Feb 2015, 08:12 pm
I don't know what Speakon is but I've currently got the Crown hooked up with Kimber 4TC run down through the holes.  Necessity is the mother of invention in this instance.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: jk@home on 9 Feb 2015, 08:16 pm
I tried the speakons and also bare wire into the binding posts...didn't hear much difference between the two.

On the other hand, from what I can tell so far with the Pomona mod with spades, there is an audible improvement replacing the posts. The highs cleaned up and are smoother, now not as pronounced.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Tomy2Tone on 9 Feb 2015, 08:18 pm
On the other hand, from what I can tell so far with the Pomona mod with spades, there is an audible improvement replacing the posts. The highs cleaned up and are smoother, now not as pronounced.

+1
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: ljbrandt on 9 Feb 2015, 10:06 pm
Thank you Odal!  This was exactly the post I was looking for!  It seems you found that little bear p3 works well with the Crown XLS, which is great news since I have one on order!  Are you using the stock tubes on the p3? And also, are you using RCA->XLR cables from the p3 to the xls?  I'm anxious to know what setup worked best for you with the crown and little bear p3 i.e. power cable, input mods, etc.

One thing that bugs me about amps is audible hiss with no music playing through the speakers...how does the 2000 do with the little bear p3?  Is the xls2500 any better in terms of noise floor?

Lastly, how does the p3/crown compare to the p3/3116?!

Been using the Crown XLS 2000 for a little while both as a sub amp as well as with full range. Been very happy so far. Main observation for those who haven't had a chance to try it yet, your pre-amp makes a huge impact on the sound. If it can't deliver the pro level inputs, it sounds like the dynamics takes a hit in full-range (regardless if efficient bookshelves or more hard to drive speakers), and the "punch" sufferes with subwoofers. I'll guess this may differ on system, but if it didn't sound good with gain at 1, it didn't matter if I crank up the gain to the max. Yes - more volume, but "lifeless" sound. Then on the other hand, with proper input, I agree with all the positive reviews in this and other threads. It is a lot of good sound for the money. So if you don't like the sound at first, play around with some different pre-amps (or line level converter boxes, which I haven't tried myself)

I don't have anything fancy to compare with (but the rest of you have already covered this), so this is more for those with more budget-level equipment at home:
CDP or Computer via DAC (without pre-amp) resulted in lifeless sound

Using my old Pioneer Elite AVR pre-outs was neither a hit (but that was expected since it doesn't sound too good by itself either)

Using the DAC/pre-out on a Peachtree Audio Nova cleaned-up the sound and sounded pretty good but thin.

My favorite was when I "stole" the cheap LittleBear P3 tube preamp that I have been using with my TPA3116 amp. It definitely brought out the mids and bass better on the crown - perhaps some tube "distortion" is good :-) Same thing happened on my TPA3116 amp, which was lifeless and thin on the low end until I put in this preamp. As someone else mentioned, tube preamps seems to work really well with class d. This particular preamp has been criticized for the huge gain and sensitive volume control (not to mention it's diy look) when used with consumer level amps, but this is exactly what makes it a great match with the Crowns. I'm sure there are many better preamps out there but for the $50 I paid for the preamp (new) combined with $160 + shipping for a used XLS, I have a really nice sounding system for less than $250!

mjosef - thanks for the input and good comparison. I'm happy with the xls for now, but been eying the used xti market to get some more advanced dsp for sub duty or alternatively to use it as you tested for bi-amping with the xls. Read that the fan is rather noisy. Is it bearable, or do you need to put the xti in a different room?
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: ljbrandt on 10 Feb 2015, 03:00 am
I don't know what Speakon is but I've currently got the Crown hooked up with Kimber 4TC run down through the holes.  Necessity is the mother of invention in this instance.

Any chance you might post a picture of this?  :D
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Odal3 on 12 Feb 2015, 05:12 am
ljbrandt
I haven't had a chance to change anything yet so I'm still using it in stock condition. If you search for 6N3 or the similar magic sound 6N3 +6Z4preamp on the AC forum, you may find some more info on what other people have done. Here's one, but there are some longer as well: http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=128595.msg1378619#msg1378619

I'm using RCA->RCA, and no hiss. The only thing I may do in the near future is to balance the transformer voltage which seems to be a slightly off.

I have not heard the XLS2500, but based on the comments on this thread, there shouldn't really be any difference between the XLS2000 and the 2500 unless you get into the discussion about clipping, which is probably best not to repeat here so see for example the TRUTH in Audio thread.

Re TPA3116: See post #1131 and #1132

Hope you will enjoy it!
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: jk@home on 12 Feb 2015, 02:50 pm
FYI if anyone is interested. Just took some power readings to see how much juice I am using during idle, with all my 2 channel equipment left on 24/7. That's with two Crown XLS1500s and three Yamaha P3500S amps (used for the subs). Came out to around 158 watts (120 volts x 1.32 amps).

What I found interesting is that the Yamaha pro amps (not class D) actually pulled just a hair less power than the Crowns. .2 amps vs .22 amps. They do advertise that these models are energy efficient. My old A/B amp pulled almost 1.5 amps at idle all by itself.

I'm running the Yamahas off a Juice Goose sequencer, so I could come up with an auto switching control for them. Don't think they need to be on all the time. Originally had the sequencer activated by a Xantech current sensing setup, off the old Aragon amp. Will have to come up with a plan B.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: a.wayne on 12 Feb 2015, 05:21 pm
3  Yamaha P3500S  :o ,  a man on a mission .  :lol:  I'm not sure , i may have missed it, did you compare the Crown to the Yammy's ? 






:scratch:
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: jk@home on 12 Feb 2015, 06:34 pm
No, I haven't compared the two. I had bought the Yammys first, for the two mid bass subs shown below, and IB subs (four AE 15"ers) in the ceiling above, then later tried the Crowns for the KEFs. The Yamahas are more expensive, not sure why (more parts inside?).  They are in the left hand closet behind the QRD, not real easy to get to, thus the sequencer needed. If I had to do it over right now, would probably go all Crown, for cost reasons alone.

BTW, the Yamahas do have a higher "turn on" current surge. If I try to power all three up together, it will trip the 20 amp circuit breaker on the dedicated circuit. Another reason for the Juice Goose. The Crowns don't seem to have this issue.

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=128954.msg1373878#msg1373878 (http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=128954.msg1373878#msg1373878)

(http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/640x480q90/539/3EGCGj.jpg)
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: a.wayne on 12 Feb 2015, 07:22 pm
JK,

I like what you did with the Butcher blocks , the Yammy's look like more money, much better build quality, a pity no shootout ...  :)
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: guest61169 on 12 Feb 2015, 08:06 pm
JK,

I like what you did with the Butcher blocks , the Yammy's look like more money, much better build quality, a pity no shootout ...  :)

With both the Klipsch Forte II and Magnepan 1.7s I used to have, I preferred the sound of the XLS 2500 over the Yamaha P5000S.  More relaxed sounding.  But that was in my room with my associated equipment and other people might find just the opposite.  The Yamaha was much heavier and the bottom plate got strangely hot for some reason even using tall feet on an open stand.  I bought it new...I hope it was working correctly.  With that, I didn't feel comfortable letting it run 24/7 especially when I was away.  At idle, the Yamaha had no hiss at all when I put my ear right up to the speakers while Crown had a bit.   

If I recall, some of the lower priced models in the P-S series use a torroidal PS while the P5000S and P7000S use SMPS.  If I bought one again, I would try the torroidal. 
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: jk@home on 12 Feb 2015, 08:15 pm
The butcher block came from Bed Bath and Beyond, the stand was built with left over cutting boards. The Salamander rack behind it (from Amazon) was much easier to build :wink: :)

Yeah, AFAIK, the 3500 is basically a class A/B amp with a fancy, energy efficient power supply? Never have heard the fans come on once. I had tried the Yamaha on my old MMGs and felt it wasn't as good sounding as the old Aragon. But like I mentioned earlier, Maggies can be picky amp wise. Maybe if I get snowed in like the folks up north are now, I will pull one out and try it on the KEFs :D

The Yammy does have decent binding posts, and they are spade usable, no mod needed.

Edit: now that the Yamahas are on 24/7, they do get a bit warm on the bottomside. I've ordered one of these kits  to switch the amp sequencer on and off:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0002NRJWC/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1 (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0002NRJWC/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1)
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: maplegrovemusic on 13 Feb 2015, 03:27 am
Another great use for an xls .  I have been going back and forth between a pair of Hypex and a pair of Crown xls 2500's to drive my King Sound speakers. Well it finally dawned on me that the Crown has the 1/4" pass thru on them , so i am running the Crowns on my bass and the Hypex on the tweeters . Pretty spectacular . Would highly recommend this as a new tweak. A 1/4" to xlr from Mogami is what i am using . The real nice thing about the gain on the crowns can be adjusted to match the other amps output . I would guess almost any amp that is balanced could be used on the tweeters. Goint to try some tubes on the tweets next .
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: ljbrandt on 14 Feb 2015, 02:52 am
For any of those using this amp with a subwoofer:

Would there be any concern using the speaker level inputs on a sub woofer  (such as REL) with this amp?  I'm wondering if the high wattage on this amp would pose any threat to my ML subwoofer.

I'm thinking that if I used the 1/4 line outs (passthrough), then I would potentially weaken the input signal into the amp, similar to using a splitter.

Thoughts?
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: SteveFord on 14 Feb 2015, 02:44 pm
The amp is on it's way to Peter J, I'd expect it around Thursday of next week.
Thanks for doing this tour, it was a lot of fun.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Tomy2Tone on 14 Feb 2015, 03:08 pm
Just an update on where the tour is...and is going.


Peter J- ID

S Clark- TX

gregfisk- WA

Bill of NY
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: OzarkTom on 15 Feb 2015, 08:26 pm
If anyone here is looking for a 2000 at a decent price, here is one in Ca. for $230.

http://sacramento.craigslist.org/eld/4892247383.html
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: rob303 on 17 Feb 2015, 04:08 pm
Has anyone here experienced an imbalance in the gain adjustment?

I have owned an XLS1500 for a couple months now. At some point in that time I have noticed my left channel to be louder, but I have always passed it off as my room favoring that speaker. Well, last night I decided to focus on repositioning my speakers to achieve more balance to no avail. So this morning I decided to reduce the gain setting in the left channel one click (0.5) and the sound was noticeably better! Next I got out my volt meter and a test record which has a track producing a constant tone equal in both channels. I tested every channel connection and cable end all along my chain and everything came up even. Then I tested my speaker taps and found a significant discrepancy. At every gain setting the right channel is lower than the left and, as expected, the difference increases as I increase the gain in both channels.

I have the amp set to "Stereo Bypass".

Anyone else ever hear of this? A quick Google search produced nothing so I decided to come here. I sure would love to remedy this issue. I bought it through Amazon so I suppose I could always do an exchange with them as a last resort.

Cheers!
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: guest61169 on 17 Feb 2015, 04:58 pm
..Then I tested my speaker taps and found a significant discrepancy. At every gain setting the right channel is lower than the left and, as expected, the difference increases as I increase the gain in both channels.
...

Can we see your calculations in dB?  http://www.radio-electronics.com/info/formulae/decibels/decibel-formulae-equation.php
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: a.wayne on 17 Feb 2015, 04:59 pm
Why not  adjust the gain to balance both channels, are you not able to balance with the gain control......?
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: roscoeiii on 17 Feb 2015, 05:47 pm
Has anyone here experienced an imbalance in the gain adjustment?


Anyone else ever hear of this? A quick Google search produced nothing so I decided to come here. I sure would love to remedy this issue. I bought it through Amazon so I suppose I could always do an exchange with them as a last resort.

Cheers!

If you can exchange it via Amazon still, I'd do that.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: rob303 on 17 Feb 2015, 11:02 pm
Can we see your calculations in dB?  http://www.radio-electronics.com/info/formulae/decibels/decibel-formulae-equation.php
I'll see what I can do. This kind of math is a definite weak spot for me. If it helps, my voltage output with volume at 50% and gain at 8.0 was L: ~2.0V and R: 0.888 V

Why not  adjust the gain to balance both channels, are you not able to balance with the gain control......?
I can do that but then it would be...
L: 6.0
R: 8.0

Not exactly within the 10% margin Crown allows, according to Crown techs support.

If you can exchange it via Amazon still, I'd do that.
I checked, no-can-do. I've since talked to Crown and it is a warranty issue. The tech support seemed to be familiar with this being a possible issue. They made sure I thoroughly checked my lineage first. I'm going to run my digital front-end tonight to verify there is nothing going on with my turntable setup I wasn't able to observe.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: rob303 on 17 Feb 2015, 11:06 pm
I should also add I am running this in a temporary setup utilizing only the iTube buffer/pre as my preamp. This thing only offers 6dB of gain which is why I need to crank the gain knobs on the XLS. If I was running a normal preamp my gain knobs would only be 2 clicks off, but still an indicator the amp is not functioning properly.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: OzarkTom on 17 Feb 2015, 11:19 pm
I should also add I am running this in a temporary setup utilizing only the iTube buffer/pre as my preamp. This thing only offers 6dB of gain which is why I need to crank the gain knobs on the XLS. If I was running a normal preamp my gain knobs would only be 2 clicks off, but still an indicator the amp is not functioning properly.

Have you tried by-passing the ITube making sure the amp is the problem?
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Doublej on 18 Feb 2015, 12:31 am
Reversing the left and right cables from the output of the preamp to amplifier should allow one to ascertain if the problem is with the amplifier or something in front of it.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Peter J on 18 Feb 2015, 12:36 am
Arrrgghhhh! Received tour amp today, but discovered I have no easy way to hook it up. Speakers are biwired and cables terminated in spades, which the Crown doesn't accept. Never thought about that.

 Is there such a thing as a spade to banana adaptor? I suppose I could make some cheapie cables and jumper but was really hoping to hear this with system mostly as is.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: jk@home on 18 Feb 2015, 12:51 am
Yes:

http://www.ramelectronics.net/product.aspx?zpid=579 (http://www.ramelectronics.net/product.aspx?zpid=579)

Music Direct, Audio Advisor and others also sell them.

You just have to be careful, cause it is tight. I did this when I first tried the Crown, had to add little pieces of rubber in between posts to keep them from shorting together.

If you have some bare speaker wire (or can buy something inexpensive), that would be better, just use the top hole in the posts.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: rodge827 on 18 Feb 2015, 01:49 am
Wow there's a fix for everything these days!
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: rob303 on 18 Feb 2015, 04:02 am
Reversing the left and right cables from the output of the preamp to amplifier should allow one to ascertain if the problem is with the amplifier or something in front of it.
Great advice! This is what I did tonight after instantly noticing my rarely-used digital front-end produced amazing balance. I traced it to my phono stage. Not the amp! Boy, do I feel like a dunce  :duh:
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: steve f on 18 Feb 2015, 04:18 am
You still have to find out if the imbalance is in the phono pre, the cartridge, or perhaps the cartridge alignment or even arm setup. You did prove that the Crown has good channel balance. Patience.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: barryso on 20 Feb 2015, 02:55 pm
Rob, don't feel bad about the imbalance debugging.  It took me way too long to figure out an imbalance in my system wasn't a component but one of the RCA cables.  This was after swapping out everything but the cable in question.

Same thing happened with an odd sounding (but expensive) power cord.  It stayed while all sorts of components got swapped in and out.  When a good sounding DIY cord got swapped in as a replacement things just opened up.  Up to that point I'd have never guessed it was a power cord.

This can be a very strange hobby at times.    :roll:
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: roscoeiii on 20 Feb 2015, 03:33 pm
Having a balance control in your system can be mighty useful for a number of reasons. For me, I need one due to the shape of my room and limited speaker placement options.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Rclark on 20 Feb 2015, 03:44 pm
I'm moving here next week and will need an amp to drive my second system. Totally getting one of these.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: jk@home on 20 Feb 2015, 03:48 pm
I'm moving here next week and will need an amp to drive my second system. Totally getting one of these.

Would that be your Magnestands?
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: jk@home on 20 Feb 2015, 03:51 pm
Only tweak left to do on my two 1500s is to upgrade the power cords. Will need 1.5 m long each. Can anyone recommend a diy or premade cord, preferably in the $50-$75 range?
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: OzarkTom on 20 Feb 2015, 05:35 pm
Only tweak left to do on my two 1500s is to upgrade the power cords. Will need 1.5 m long each. Can anyone recommend a diy or premade cord, preferably in the $50-$75 range?

I have used the Pangea AC14 power cords with good results. But I will ask my buddy Rex, he has tried almost everything including the cheapest cables.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: roscoeiii on 20 Feb 2015, 05:47 pm
Only tweak left to do on my two 1500s is to upgrade the power cords. Will need 1.5 m long each. Can anyone recommend a diy or premade cord, preferably in the $50-$75 range?

Pangea and the Shunyata Venom were the first that popped to mind. PM me if the Venom interests you. I've got one that is not in use right now.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: a.wayne on 20 Feb 2015, 05:54 pm
Which one of you frozen philes have the Amplfier now ..... ?  :D
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: jk@home on 20 Feb 2015, 06:51 pm
Thanks, got an Audio Advisor sale flyer just yesterday with Pangea on sale. Will check it out. Roscoeiii did you try the Shunyata on the loaner Crown when you had it?
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: wushuliu on 20 Feb 2015, 07:06 pm
So did anyone try the 193l/M Hammond choke tweak yet? I thought some folks were going to give it a go.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Rclark on 20 Feb 2015, 07:10 pm
Would that be your Magnestands?

Yes, that will be my living room system, and since I no longer have housemates, I can finally go whole hog and finish the last 10th's of the system with basstrapping, microphone, etc.

I can't decide if I could put Ncores out there or not, but I'll probably use both system's equally as I will have a PlayStation TV installed on the living room TV to stream the PS4 from my bedroom and have access to all my games, movies, music out there on the couch. The PSTV will also have its own Ethernet connection.

The Maggies will appreciate the big power, even if they aren't getting the Ncore love that my bedroom speakers are getting. Or maybe I'll use the Crown in the bedroom. We'll see.

Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: roscoeiii on 20 Feb 2015, 07:57 pm
Thanks, got an Audio Advisor sale flyer just yesterday with Pangea on sale. Will check it out. Roscoeiii did you try the Shunyata on the loaner Crown when you had it?

No, haven't tried it yet. Have a higher priced cable going into the Crown. Getting back to my power conditioner is a real pain, so don't do much cable swapping. I can look into it this weekend and report back, or drop it in the mail to you if you want to try it out in your system.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Tomy2Tone on 21 Feb 2015, 03:35 pm
So did anyone try the 193l/M Hammond choke tweak yet? I thought some folks were going to give it a go.

I just unplugged all my 193m chokes from my system to see what changes would happen and immediately the soundstage became hazy with a great loss of detail. For the $250 I spent at parts express for these I gotta say it was a nice improvement for the money.

I look at the Audio Magic Pulse Gen and wonder what it could do but its $400 for just one which goes into one component, so for me with two crown amps running that's $800.

For my Panny Plasma they work really well too but only at the outlet. When I tried one at the Brick surge protector where the tv is plugged in the picture quality took a hit. But for audio there was a benefit wherever I put them.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Tomy2Tone on 25 Feb 2015, 12:27 am
Arrrgghhhh! Received tour amp today, but discovered I have no easy way to hook it up. Speakers are biwired and cables terminated in spades, which the Crown doesn't accept. Never thought about that.

 Is there such a thing as a spade to banana adaptor? I suppose I could make some cheapie cables and jumper but was really hoping to hear this with system mostly as is.

Hey Peter J,

Just checking in to see how things are going. Have you been able to come up with something to help you connect your speaker cables to the Crown?
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Peter J on 25 Feb 2015, 01:15 am
I think I've  found something that will work with existing cables, but been busy with work, so haven't had much time to give it a spin. If I'm holding up the show, I can forward on to next in line.

Now that I think about it, wife's gone tonight, so I'm going to delay what I had on agenda and see if I can get it going right now.

I'll report back.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Peter J on 25 Feb 2015, 03:39 am
 My thoughts on the tour amp. I'm not a wordy guy when typing, so I'll make this brief. Also the audition was brief, I've found that if something sounds "off" to me, it's unlikely that will change with more listening. All that said it's just my opinion, so put the flamethrowers away.

System consisted of CAPs server > W4S DAC-2 > Cary SLP-03 > Crown >Northcreek Rhythms

The comparison is to the Ncores I recently built, which have a layer upon layer quality that I find beguiling. It's unlike any amp I've owned.

The Crown just didn't compare favorably in this system. Vocals on the shouty side. Bass sometimes tending towards  overblown. Kind of an "in your face" presentation. Music had an edge I think I'd find fatiguing with extended listening.  In the bang for buck category, I imagine this is a pretty good deal, but not a game changer for me and certainly not replacing the Ncores. At times, in certain frequency ranges, it did have some moments of glory, but overall, not so much.

I'll pack it up and send it along to next candidate!
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: rob303 on 25 Feb 2015, 01:50 pm
Rob, don't feel bad about the imbalance debugging.  It took me way too long to figure out an imbalance in my system wasn't a component but one of the RCA cables.  This was after swapping out everything but the cable in question.

Same thing happened with an odd sounding (but expensive) power cord.  It stayed while all sorts of components got swapped in and out.  When a good sounding DIY cord got swapped in as a replacement things just opened up.  Up to that point I'd have never guessed it was a power cord.

This can be a very strange hobby at times.    :roll:
Thanks man! Of course I went all tech-y crazy with a multimeter, etc instead of simply working my way down the chain using my best tools: eyes and ears! The culprit? I have this little iFi phono stage as a temp while my tube phono pre is being built. These things are sooo tiny but packed with adjustability. So, for the past couple months I had the gain set wrong and was giving my left channel a 6dB boost. Crazy thing is, it wasn't that noticeable with the DynAudio monitors I was borrowing. When I hooked up my new Omega speakers the imbalance was head-exploding! Things are all bueno now!
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Peter J on 25 Feb 2015, 03:29 pm
Calling S Clark... calling in S Clark.

Tour amp is ready to come your way. Assuming you're ready and willing, I'll send your direction straight away.

Over and out...
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: S Clark on 27 Feb 2015, 02:40 pm
The Crown is on its way to Texas, where it has two very different amps to compare to.  A custom Dodd 6L6GC/6dj8 amp with about 50 wpc driving fairly efficient X-Statik speakers, and a modded Moscode 401HR 200 wpc driving big line source LS9 speakers.  The LS9's are moderately efficient, but have significant back EMF that requires control for the speakers to really sound their best.  The Crown could be a good match.  We should see by the middle of next week.  Stay tuned.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Tomy2Tone on 27 Feb 2015, 03:26 pm
The Crown is on its way to Texas, where it has two very different amps to compare to.  A custom Dodd 6L6GC/6dj8 amp with about 50 wpc driving fairly efficient X-Statik speakers, and a modded Moscode 401HR 200 wpc driving big line source LS9 speakers.  The LS9's are moderately efficient, but have significant back EMF that requires control for the speakers to really sound their best.  The Crown could be a good match.  We should see by the middle of next week.  Stay tuned.

Sounds great S Clark!

Thanks Peter J for the great communication!
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: steve f on 27 Feb 2015, 05:30 pm
Just curious. When will the Crown XLS amp tour end?
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: a.wayne on 27 Feb 2015, 06:23 pm
When the warranty expires ........  :)
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Tomy2Tone on 27 Feb 2015, 07:14 pm
Just an update on where the tour is...and is going.


S Clark- TX

gregfisk- WA

Bill of NY

barryso- Jersey
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: gregfisk on 2 Mar 2015, 06:46 pm
Just an update on where the tour is...and is going.


S Clark- TX

gregfisk- WA

Bill of NY

barryso- Jersey

Hey Tommy,

I'll send S Clark my info. sometime today.

I just got my new Super V's set up which are very revealing so this should be a good speaker to here what the amp really sounds like.

Thanks for doing this tour, I look forward to hearing this amp, especially for the price.

Greg
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Tomy2Tone on 2 Mar 2015, 06:53 pm
Hey Tommy,

I'll send S Clark my info. sometime today.

I just got my new Super V's set up which are very revealing so this should be a good speaker to here what the amp really sounds like.

Thanks for doing this tour, I look forward to hearing this amp, especially for the price.

Greg

No problem Greg!

I think S Clark should be getting the amp this week if he hasn't received it already. Yes, love to hear what your Super V's can do with the crown.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: S Clark on 2 Mar 2015, 08:12 pm
Haven't seen the amp yet, but we've had icy roads for several days so things may be a bit delayed.  I'll be sure and PM when it arrives.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: S Clark on 7 Mar 2015, 01:09 am
I've been taking easy around the house today after leaving a molar with the dental surgeon yesterday, and with no wife about until Sat. it was the perfect time to install the Crown and put it though its paces. 
The quick and dirty is that it does a few things well, many just so so, and some pretty poorly. 

First I put it in for a 50+ wpc custom Dodd 6L6GC amp powering a set of X-Statik's in my small room system.  These are pretty efficient, but are amp sensitive-  they really didn't like a pair of monoblock 6qb5 amps that sound great on everything else.  The more powerful Dodd just makes them come alive. 
The first piece was super dynamic classical, Havergal Brian's 6th Sym. on Lyrica vinyl.  The first thing that jumped at me was the much reduced sound stage presented by the Crown.  The Dodd puts the orchestra well outside the speakers; the Crown reduced the orchestra and pushed the presentation much further into the hall- like moving from the 12 row to the balcony.  The tone of most instrument were very real, especially woodwinds with great accuracy on the bass bassoon.  Surprisingly, other tympani and bass drum were quite muddy and recessed.  Strings were musical and well reproduced, but exact placement was not precise. 
When a cd of the Manhattan Jazz Quintet's My Funny Valentine (great dynamics) was played, the drums lost all crispness and were quite flat and recessed.  The piece lost the dynamics that makes the cd sought after.

Ok, the Crown had nice instrument tone, but that was about it.

Time to put it in the large room with the LS9 line arrays.  They are powered by a modified Moscode 401HR.  The space is L shaped with a 25x24' space connecting to another 25x23' space.  It's a difficult room, with lots of absorptions and diffusers in place.  The LS9s are capable of great orchestral dynamics, or can create a small jazz ensemble believably.  The Crown goes in and first up is a chamber orchestra version of Copland's Appalachian Spring on Sound 80 vinyl.  The soundstage is usually extended, but collapsed to all between the speakers.  Instrument placements was still pretty good, but the tone was thin.  Piano was dull, little reverb, and lifeless.  Bass violin was muddy...   I put on the vinyl of the Manhattan Jazz Quintet... no dynamics, no bass.  I stopped it 30 seconds in.

Ok, now the Moscode is a damn nice amp (many better, I'm sure) and it wasn't especially cheap.  The Custom Dodd is also a keeper.  Gary built it just before his health went south, and he commented at the time that was one of his most advanced.  The Crown has a sweet tone for strings and woodwinds, and seems to do vocals ok.  But it's failings in soundstage, bass accuracy, and dynamics result in it being crossed off my list for an option for my systems.  Is it a deal for the money??? maybe.  Is it a giant killer? Not in my system.  Thanks to Tommy for making this available.  Just because it didn't work well with my system, doesn't mean it won't work in another.
I'll try to get it on it's way to the Greg probably Monday. 
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: barryso on 10 Mar 2015, 12:53 am
OK, I've been trying to wrap my brain around the difference between gain settings and sensitivity of home and pro gear.  This may not be the place to ask but since this thread is about a pro amp it seemed like the right place.

Most pro amps like the Crown xls need 1.4 volts to drive them to their full output and most consumer amps require less.  Understood.

It's also clear that too little gain or voltage from the preamp may not drive a pro amp to produce the dynamics and tonality it should.  That's understood, too.

The specifications on the various preamps in my house range from 12 db fixed gain, 22 db fixed gain and one unit that is switchable from 8/16/24 db gain.  The output of these preamps range from 10 vrms to 30 vrms with less than 1% distortion.

My question - is it about voltage or gain (or are they basically the same thing with different labels)?  Does the gain or voltage output of the preamp indicate which unit would be more likely to drive a pro amp well?  Is it simply a matter of the higher gain or higher voltage being the better choice of preamp?
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: *Scotty* on 10 Mar 2015, 03:20 am
The logical thing to do here is to try each preamp and pick the one that sounds the best to you. With an input sensitivity of 1.4v, one or more of these preamps will most likely have a near unusable VOL pot. due barely being able to move it off the bottom before becoming too loud. Doing the math tells us that with a standard output digital source having 2volts out you will always being attenuating to less than or equal to the 1.4 volts input sensitivity of the power amp. Any more than 1.4 volts into the amp means you are into clipping.
 You need 24 dB of gain like a hole in the head. Every 6dB gain means a doubling of the incoming voltage what ever it is. Starting with 2volts into 24db of gain equals 32volts out which is roughly 22.85 times more than the 1.4v input clipping level of the XLS amp.
Once again I reiterate, try them all and pick the one you like.
Scotty
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: barryso on 10 Mar 2015, 01:31 pm
Thanks for the explanation Scotty.  There are several threads on different audio forums regarding matching pro amps and non pro preamps and it gets confusing.

A DJ friend lent me a pro amp a while back and I set the attenuators on the pro amp down about 50 percent so the preamp could run at a higher output.  That's supposed to increase dynamics and reduce the noise floor.  In the end it seemed to sound more dynamic with the preamp running lower and the attenuators on the amp set much higher.  That was a surprise ... it wasn't supposed to work that way.

Looking forward to hearing the Crown and experimenting with gear and settings.  The main speakers are a tad laid back sounding so this amp may be a good pairing.

Thanks.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: barnestn on 12 Mar 2015, 08:14 pm
Should anyone be interested, I have a Crown XLS-2000 for sale in as new condition.  I purchased from Crutchfield on 11/09/2014 and used it while trying to sell by Musica Bella Ibrido.  As most know, the Crown is probably unbeatable at its price; it is not nearly as good as the Ibrido but good enough to live with until I decided on a good integrated. The Ibrido didn't sell (it is as new and can still be purchased for $1700) so I am trying to sell the Crown.  The Crown is $375 and shipping is included on both amplifiers.  Perfect feedback at Audiogon.  Thanks, Bob.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: gregfisk on 14 Mar 2015, 07:55 am
Hello all,

I received the amp today so wanted to let Scott and Tommy know it made it to my place safe and sound. I may try to strengthen the box a bit as it's getting pretty soft. Scott did a great job at taping the heck out of it but I may try firming it up a bit before sending it back East.

Since the amp showed up today I'm going to stay home and not go to my beach house until next weekend because hey, this is fun and I can leave next weekend instead :thumb:

Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: S Clark on 14 Mar 2015, 01:14 pm
The box was getting ragged when it got to me.  I used reinforced tape in several places, but your right, it probably needs some additional tlc.  Glad it arrived in one piece.  Looking forward to your impressions.

Scott
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Tomy2Tone on 14 Mar 2015, 03:18 pm
Just an update on where the tour is...and is going.



gregfisk- WA

Pit stop in AZ

Bill of NY

barryso- Jersey
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: ljbrandt on 15 Mar 2015, 07:09 pm
I just hooked my xls 2000 up today (bought used on ebay) to my mb quart vera bookshelvef speakers...

This amp is the real deal.

I've been using a Tripath 2020 T-amp (from indeed hifi) and have absolutely loved this amp...but having only 8w of real power, it comes up short when I want to really crank it.
I've been causally searching for an amp that can match the indeed's clarity and musicality but with a lot more oomph.

Tried a parasound z-amp...ok but not better than the indeed
Tried a Yamaha RZ-Z9 in pure direct mode...as good as the indeed and good power but the thing weighs 60+ lbs and runs pretty hot...not ideal for my desktop setup. Not to mention this was $4500 AVR back in the day.

Enter the crown - about as detailed and smooth as the T-amp, but incredible CONTROLLED power!  The amp has the right sound, the right size and right price!

So far, I've only used my Stoner Accoustics UD120 usb DAC line out directly into the crown, but I've got a little bear P3 preamp I need to assemble and try with the 2000...things might get even sweeter! 
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: ljbrandt on 16 Mar 2015, 03:05 am
UPDATE w/ the little bear p3 pre-amp:

It's the icing on the cake.  It's almost like this pre-amp was made for the crown. Odal hit the nail on the head...this amp needs a hot signal to sound its best!

I've got the gain between 8-9 o'clock and can use the full volume range on the preamp's volume pot
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: jk@home on 16 Mar 2015, 01:03 pm
UPDATE w/ the little bear p3 pre-amp:

It's the icing on the cake.  It's almost like this pre-amp was made for the crown. Odal hit the nail on the head...this amp needs a hot signal to sound its best!

I've got the gain between 8-9 o'clock and can use the full volume range on the preamp's volume pot

Yes but is that good, bad or indifferent? I understand a high gain pre is best with this amp (mine has I think 10dB gain). But running my crowns at 12 o clock puts the volume control of the pre basically in the middle of it's range. Which I though is the best way to run a level control. Of course my pre uses one of the electronic ladder types, so it may not even apply in this case.

I can turn my 1500s down to 9 o'clock and still have usable range on the pre, but on the high end of the scale. But is this optimal? The hiss level  out of the speakers does not change, or if it does, by not much. Just askin.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: roscoeiii on 16 Mar 2015, 01:47 pm
I'd say it will depend on the particular gear involved.  Explore that area where there is low noise floor and a usable, preferable amount of volume control.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: gregfisk on 18 Mar 2015, 02:14 am
Hi all,

So I spent most of the weekend with the XLS 1500, my Wife decided to head up to our beach house and leave me here to listen and compare amps. I just can't imagine why she would do that :scratch: :lol: :lol: :lol:

I like to know what equipment people are using so here is a list for those who care.

Sources: mac mini with M2tech stack, Pure i20 dock with ipod classic and Integra SACD, DVD, CD player.
Dac: Metrum Octave
Preamp: Joule Electra 150MK11SE
Amps: Butler 2250 hybrid and TBI Mellenia with upgraded binding posts and RCAs. "I also tried a studio amp I bought for $15.00 at a thrift store, Alesis 5150 :thumbdown:"
Speakers: Super Vs with Jupiter cap upgrade.
Cabling: Mogami  Neglex  interconnects and fire hose speaker cables "can't remember the brand"?

Realize that the bass is taken care of with the four 12" servo subs and servo amps so that's a constant and the bass IMO is amazing.
I had been using my Butler amp since I finished my Super Vs which has been the last couple of weeks so that's what I was used to. I feel that the differences you hear are most noticeable in the first couple of minutes or switching and after that you start to get used to whatever it is your listening to, my opinion anyway. The first thing I noticed with the 1500 was everything seemed tipped up a bit, the voices were not as full and seemed a little higher pitched, same with the instruments. I also noticed that the sound stage thinned out and moved more in between the speakers. I thought the sound stage was still pretty good but much narrower and a bit thin in comparison to the Butler. I thought the detail was very good and I could here all of the instruments and the sound was very clear and crisp. After about 20 minutes I really started to enjoy the sound and the sky was the limit when it came to volume, the amp never ran out of gas and that's saying a lot as I have a very large room.

I then connected my TBI Melenia amps of which I have two. I had not had time to connect these yet to my Super Vs which is why I bought them in the first place. As soon as I hit play I was blown away by the tonality of the music, it was like it just came alive. I swear I was hearing a tube amp and the music was live because of all the texture and tone of the vocals and instruments, the music just seemed more right to me somehow. The one issue with the TBI amps was I couldn't really turn them up to really loud SPLs which sometimes I like to do.  If you don't need a lot of power, have efficient speakers or don't listen very loud I would seriously look at the TBI amps, they are really something IMO at least with my Super Vs. The TBIs didn't work very well with my Aerial 7b speakers because the 7bs like a lot of power. I had hoped to try the 1500 with the 7bs but didn't get a change to move those speakers back into place.

I switched back and forth probably 8 times between the 3 amps and In conclusion I think the Crown 1500 is a great amp for someone who wants good clean sound or has a system that leans to the warm side. It seems like a good match for a preamp with what people consider the older tube sound. The 1500 is clean watts and a lot of them, pretty fun all and all. While I like a fuller warmer presentation I can see a lot of people really liking this amp.

Thank You Tommy for making this possible, I had a lot of fun last weekend and appreciate the opportunity.

Greg

Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: gregfisk on 20 Mar 2015, 12:18 am
It looks like people have lost interest in this thread?

Tommy,

I found a box just big enough to put the original outside box inside. Do you still want me to ship it to you?

Again, Thank you Tommy for making this happen, I enjoyed my time with the amp and was happy to get to try it in my system. You never know what something will sound like until you get to hear it in a familiar setting IMO.

Take Care,

Greg
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: rodge827 on 20 Mar 2015, 12:26 am
It looks like people have lost interest in this thread?

Still interested and enjoying my Crown.  :D

I like reading how the amp performs in different systems.  8)
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Tomy2Tone on 20 Mar 2015, 12:31 am
It looks like people have lost interest in this thread?

Tommy,

I found a box just big enough to put the original outside box inside. Do you still want me to ship it to you?

Again, Thank you Tommy for making this happen, I enjoyed my time with the amp and was happy to get to try it in my system. You never know what something will sound like until you get to hear it in a familiar setting IMO.

Take Care,

Greg

Thanks Greg!

I think Bill of NY is next but haven't seen him post in a while, so I'll send him a pm to see if he's still interested.

Like Chris, I'm still enjoying my Crowns.  :D
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: DaveC113 on 20 Mar 2015, 01:42 am
Still interested and enjoying my Crown.  :D

I like reading how the amp performs in different systems.  8)

+1, I'm still using mine and it is interesting to hear other reports.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: steve f on 20 Mar 2015, 01:49 am
I am still interested. I bought a couple of 1500s. Quite honestly, with the right preamp, they are excellent performers. They drive virtually any loudspeaker load. (I gave the Crown a couple of really reactive loads. One caused another amp to oscillate and shut down.) Are there better amps? Of course there are. But I have had some really expensive amps in my system fail to equal them. One thing for sure, the preamp source has a stronger influence on sound quality than most other amps.

I guess that makes me +2

steve

Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: roscoeiii on 20 Mar 2015, 01:51 am
I am still interested. I bought a couple of 1500s. Quite honestly, with the right preamp, they are excellent performers. They drive virtually any loudspeaker load. Are there better amps? Of course there are. But I have had some really expensive amps in my system fail to equal them. One thing for sure, the preamp source has a stronger influence on sound quality than most other amps.

steve

Well put Steve. And as always, speaker matching is key.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: DaveC113 on 20 Mar 2015, 01:55 am
I am still interested. I bought a couple of 1500s. Quite honestly, with the right preamp, they are excellent performers. They drive virtually any loudspeaker load. Are there better amps? Of course there are. But I have had some really expensive amps in my system fail to equal them. One thing for sure, the preamp source has a stronger influence on sound quality than most other amps.

steve

Agreed, I find the preamp makes a huge difference with most class D amps. And possibly a trend that the XLS seems to perform best with more efficient / easy to drive speakers, which makes sense as most pro audio speakers tend to be very efficient.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: roscoeiii on 20 Mar 2015, 01:59 am
Agreed, I find the preamp makes a huge difference with most class D amps. And possibly a trend that the XLS seems to perform best with more efficient / easy to drive speakers, which makes sense as most pro audio speakers tend to be very efficient.

I don't know I agree with the efficient speaker comment. My SP Tech Revelations demand some POWER. And IMO that is a big reason that the XLS works so well with them in my setup.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: gregfisk on 20 Mar 2015, 02:05 am
Agreed, I find the preamp makes a huge difference with most class D amps. And possibly a trend that the XLS seems to perform best with more efficient / easy to drive speakers, which makes sense as most pro audio speakers tend to be very efficient.

The amp performed really well with my Super V's which have pro drivers for midrange and tweeter and are 97db efficient. In Fact at one point when I was playing pretty "O.K. really" loud I swear the system sounded like I was watching a small live venue, amplified of course.

I wonder if I was using a different tube pre I would have felt different about the sound stage, the Joule is a wonderful pre thou and I have not heard better in my system.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: DaveC113 on 20 Mar 2015, 02:14 am
I don't know I agree with the efficient speaker comment. My SP Tech Revelations demand some POWER. And IMO that is a big reason that the XLS works so well with them in my setup.

Cool,  I've tried to draw some conclusions from this thread but maybe we don't have quite enough data to figure out exactly what speakers are a good match... It does seem like the more efficient speakers do well but others may too.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: roscoeiii on 20 Mar 2015, 02:16 am
Cool,  I've tried to draw some conclusions from this thread but maybe we don't have quite enough data to figure out exactly what speakers are a good match... It does seem like the more efficient speakers do well but others may too.

And it is mightily impressive that such a high power amp works so well with such efficient speakers. Far more impressive then them working well with power hungry speakers, IMO.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: rodge827 on 20 Mar 2015, 02:35 am
I use the Dspeaker Antimode Dual Core 2.0 as a dac, preamp and room correction devise.  The model I have is the 2012 version and the output is very low, RCA-1.65 Vrms, XLR-3.25 Vrms.  I use an XLR-RCA cable to an iFi iTube to the Crown and the RCA out to a pair of Bash 300s plate amps on my subs.  I was having a balance issue between the Crown and the Bash amps where the gain on the Crown needed to be all the way at 5:00 to "keep up" with the bass output.  My monitors are 86db into 6 ohms, drop off significantly at 100hz, and only need about 25w to sound real good.

The fix was to set the iTube to +6db and use the "High Pass" crossover on the Crown set at 105hz. With that I was able to then dial back the Crowns' gain to better match the bass output on the plate amps.  The room now sounds better than ever!

As mentioned before, the Crown may not be the best amp, but for the money ($200 used on CL) it is the best bargain and most versatile amp I have ever owned. :D

Chris

Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: OzarkTom on 20 Mar 2015, 02:36 am
The XLS plays my 84db efficiency Zellatons very well. These speakers are very fast and the Crown matches them very well.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Tomy2Tone on 20 Mar 2015, 02:36 am
Rogue Perseus has worked well with the Crowns but I definitely have preferred Amperex tubes because of their ability to give a slightly warm presentation while keeping all the resolution.

I have a passive pre coming hopefully tomorrow...not sure how it will mate but it's worth a try.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: gregfisk on 20 Mar 2015, 02:47 am
Rogue Perseus has worked well with the Crowns but I definitely have preferred Amperex tubes because of their ability to give a slightly warm presentation while keeping all the resolution.

I have a passive pre coming hopefully tomorrow...not sure how it will mate but it's worth a try.

I tried a Tortuga passive, the first iteration in place of my Joule and the sound stage just went completely flat. It just didn't work with my Butler hybrid amp. My guess would be that the sound will be a bit sterile and lean but looking forward to your observations.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Tomy2Tone on 20 Mar 2015, 02:50 am
I tried a Tortuga passive, the first iteration in place of my Joule and the sound stage just went completely flat. It just didn't work with my Butler hybrid amp. My guess would be that the sound will be a bit sterile and lean but looking forward to your observations.

Yeah, I ordered an LDR3v2 from Morten, but not necessarily to go with the Crowns but I'll hook it up with them anyway.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: steve f on 20 Mar 2015, 03:26 am
In my systems, the Crown prefers low impedance preamps. A bit of voltage gain, and some current. Solid state of <30 Ohms and a tube pre of < 200 Ohms. I had a high impedance tube in for awhile, and the sound went dull. I think situations like that caused some guys to complain about 2D sound. I also tried a no gain extremely low impedance solid state pre that was just great with several amps, but the sound was lifeless with the Crown. Unfortunately I don't have another Class D amp around to check if this anomaly happens with Class D in general.

steve
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Tomy2Tone on 20 Mar 2015, 03:31 am
I have a Pascal class d amp from Aluminati Sound that I'll also try the passive with and see what difference there is between it and the Crown.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Odal3 on 20 Mar 2015, 04:11 am
Still using it as well. Its been fun to read all the reviews, and looking fwd to more. BTW: Has anyone figured out if possible to hardwire around the dsp or alternatively feed it with digital in? Been starting to play with an external dsp solution and want to minimize number of conversions if possible.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: jk@home on 20 Mar 2015, 12:01 pm
Still using my 1500s, although as is/plug and play wise, they are not the best pairing for my speakers. My theory is the Crowns have a more flat frequency response, or voiced for pro apps, what ever that requires. Not voiced for audiophile speakers. Thus the recommendations for "warm" sounding speakers. There are work-arounds for this, ie. tubes, cables, EQ, etc.

Someday my Crowns will be moved to the HT system, the Paradigm Studios there will appreciate them more then the KEFs do. For now, a little EQ upstream will suffice.

Greg, nice writeup. Your comment on listening to the amp for only a shortwhile and making an impulse opinion rings true to me. My first impressions weren't so great either. But after working the amp into the system, with other adjustments, such as speaker toe-in,  modding the binding posts, etc. AND getting use to the sound, they are satisfying. No 2d problems here.

And they are smooth sounding in my system. The LS50s are said to work best with a toe-in at 45 degrees, straight at ya. Couldn't do that with the previous amp without fatigue. Can now and it makes a giant improvement in the soundstage.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: barryso on 20 Mar 2015, 01:13 pm
I'm looking forward to hearing the amp.  There are several preamps in the "collection" that range from not all that tooby sounding to very tooby sounding.  All have < 200 ohm impedance and varying amounts of gain.

One of the preamps is pretty laid back sounding and it sounded best in it's previous owners system when he had a couple of brute force solid state monoblocks.  There wasn't a subtle thing about those amps and the tooby pre really made them shine. Curious to see how it gets along with the crown even though the descriptions of the crown sound aren't anywhere near as brutal as those old monoblocks.

The one thing I can't get over is those of you that found a used crown for so little money.  I've been on Craigslist and Search Tempest looking for suitable candidates for a few months now.  Yeah, they turn up but the folks selling them want way too much for them.  Some want about the same as you can buy them new.  Where are you finding these bargains?

Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: rodge827 on 20 Mar 2015, 02:07 pm

 Thus the recommendations for "warm" sounding speakers. There are work-arounds for this, ie. tubes, cables, EQ, etc.

But after working the amp into the system, with other adjustments, such as speaker toe-in,  modding the binding posts, etc. AND getting use to the sound, they are satisfying. No 2d problems here.

And they are smooth sounding in my system. The LS50s are said to work best with a toe-in at 45 degrees, straight at ya. Couldn't do that with the previous amp without fatigue. Can now and it makes a giant improvement in the soundstage.

So true about the work around with the Crown XLS. I listened to the amp with and with out the iTube, and there is no question that the iTube is what "made" this amp for me.

With other amps I had the toe-in on my Shelby+Kroll monitors brushing past my ears. They are now pointed at my face and "Oh yeah! now we got something special here".  No 2D here either and not quiet a full 3D presentation but with the improved sound stage and imaging listening is a pleasure.

I'm looking forward to hearing the amp.  There are several preamps in the "collection" that range from not all that tooby sounding to very tooby sounding.  All have < 200 ohm impedance and varying amounts of gain.

One of the preamps is pretty laid back sounding and it sounded best in it's previous owners system when he had a couple of brute force solid state monoblocks.  There wasn't a subtle thing about those amps and the tooby pre really made them shine. Curious to see how it gets along with the crown even though the descriptions of the crown sound aren't anywhere near as brutal as those old monoblocks.

The one thing I can't get over is those of you that found a used crown for so little money.  I've been on Craigslist and Search Tempest looking for suitable candidates for a few months now.  Yeah, they turn up but the folks selling them want way too much for them.  Some want about the same as you can buy them new.  Where are you finding these bargains?
   

barryso,

Looking forward to your findings with the different preamps you have. I'm hoping to pick up or build a tube pre in the next few months and the more info about how they interact with the Crown is valuable.

Keep searching Ebay and CL you will find a deal on one. Heck even at $399.00 for a new XLS 1500 you can't go wrong.  :D

Chris   

Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: barnestn on 20 Mar 2015, 03:05 pm
Keep searching Ebay and CL you will find a deal on one. Heck even at $399.00 for a new XLS 1500 you can't go wrong.

  Or, Barryso can step up to the XLS 2000 by purchasing mine which is as new and for sale at $375 including shipping. :D
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Odal3 on 20 Mar 2015, 03:09 pm
Also check music stores for used ones. Check for example Guitar Center. Amazon sometimes have good deals on used ones as well if you check the other sellers.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: jk@home on 20 Mar 2015, 04:36 pm
I like to take advantage of Guitar Center's financing deals whenever I can. Bought my Crowns from them (new), and got the "18 months same as cash" deal to pay them off.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: barryso on 20 Mar 2015, 07:10 pm
All good points.  Many thanks.

Barnestn, appreciate the offer but let me get through the audition first.   :icon_lol:

Chris, I'll try to note whatever changes go on with the preamps.  Will probably mess with plugging the crown into the wall and the power conditioner, too. 

Hope to try it on a couple of sets of speakers while it's here.  One set isn't very efficient but a very easy load while the other set isn't efficient and isn't an easy load.  It should be entertaining.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: rodge827 on 20 Mar 2015, 11:31 pm
Here is a refurb  XLS 1500 for $249.00 from Harmon on eBay:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Crown-XLS1500-Rack-Mount-Stereo-Power-Amplifier-/121592507138?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item1c4f7a6b02

Chris
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: maplegrovemusic on 21 Mar 2015, 01:31 am
I have two 2500's that are only months old and used every other week in my main rig .Looking to sell them . Current new prices are $560 . Let me know if anyone wants one . Will ship and can use PayPal .
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Tomy2Tone on 21 Mar 2015, 01:33 am
I have two 2500's that are only months old and used every other week in my main rig .Looking to sell them . Current new prices are $560 . Let me know if anyone wants one . Will ship and can use PayPal .

Cool Maplegrove, did you end up deciding to keep the Ncores?
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: maplegrovemusic on 21 Mar 2015, 02:12 am
Not really sure what's next in my amp travels . Might sell the ncores too and try some class a amps for a bit . One thing that really sweetened my experience with the Crowns is a Sunfire Classic Tube preamp . I must say the amp will get out of the way if paired with the right preamp .
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: roscoeiii on 21 Mar 2015, 04:09 pm
XLS amp folks, I just wanted to point out the iTube for sale here at a good price (great seller too, BTW):

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=132441.new#new
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: a.wayne on 21 Mar 2015, 05:41 pm
Not really sure what's next in my amp travels . Might sell the ncores too and try some class a amps for a bit . One thing that really sweetened my experience with the Crowns is a Sunfire Classic Tube preamp . I must say the amp will get out of the way if paired with the right preamp .

Interested in comparing your NCore to the cherry amp?  Tommy is looking to do a comparison between  the two ....
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: roscoeiii on 21 Mar 2015, 05:53 pm
Jackman and I both gave XLS ncore comparisons earlier this thread. Pretty speaker dependent.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: gregfisk on 21 Mar 2015, 06:37 pm
Barry,

The Amp is on its way back East as of yesterday, I had it expedited so it should show up on Wed. I used your home address and not the PO Box. Shipping is USPS.

Looking forward to your impressions.

Greg
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: a.wayne on 21 Mar 2015, 07:03 pm
Jackman and I both gave XLS ncore comparisons earlier this thread. Pretty speaker dependent.


Yes, but this comparison is between the NCore and the cherry , maybe the cherry vs XLS might be on the table too ....
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: a.wayne on 21 Mar 2015, 07:05 pm
Barry,

The Amp is on its way back East as of yesterday, I had it expedited so it should show up on Wed. I used your home address and not the PO Box. Shipping is USPS.

Looking forward to your impressions.

Greg

Greg,

Not sure , did you give your final synopsis on the XLS ....?
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: gregfisk on 21 Mar 2015, 07:46 pm
Greg,

Not sure , did you give your final synopsis on the XLS ....?

Hi A.Wayne,

Yes, I did a review a few posts back. After rereading Scott's post I think we came to a similar conclusion although I think they are a great deal for the budget minded.

Greg
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: roscoeiii on 21 Mar 2015, 11:06 pm

Yes, but this comparison is between the NCore and the cherry , maybe the cherry vs XLS might be on the table too ....

Oops,  need to read more closely...
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: barryso on 22 Mar 2015, 12:44 am
Hi Greg,

Thanks for the heads up.  I'll keep an eye out for the box.

Looking forward to it although it's showing up much earlier than expected.  I just got a Raspberry Pi and a Hifiberry Digi card (to feed a DAC via coax sp/dif) and it's breaking in.  Given the original schedule for the crown tour it seemed like the amp would be here in April and the Raspberry and Digi would have had a lot more hours on them.

I have no idea if computers and digital outputs burn in but it seems like everything else does so it's set to run music constantly for a few days ... just to get a bunch of hours on it.

Early impressions are that it sounds different driving the DAC than the Squeezebox.  Might know more when it has 50 or 100 hours on it.  Should have some time on it by the time the crown gets here.

Barry
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: barryso on 23 Mar 2015, 02:10 pm
Gearing up for the crown amp.  Ordered some speakon connectors and new 12au7's for one of the preamps.

Took the el34 tube amp and it's matching preamp out of the system and put back the tooby preamp (a conrad johnson) and a pair of inexpensive Marantz home theater monoblocks. 

The cj and the Marantz amps are a good, but not great, combo.  The amps are the weak link.  The cj preamp and the TPA3116 were a fantastic combo so there's reason to believe the crown will do well in that mix.

Looking forward to the audition.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: gregfisk on 23 Mar 2015, 02:59 pm
Gearing up for the crown amp.  Ordered some speakon connectors and new 12au7's for one of the preamps.

Took the el34 tube amp and it's matching preamp out of the system and put back the tooby preamp (a conrad johnson) and a pair of inexpensive Marantz home theater monoblocks. 

The cj and the Marantz amps are a good, but not great, combo.  The amps are the weak link.  The cj preamp and the TPA3116 were a fantastic combo so there's reason to believe the crown will do well in that mix.

Looking forward to the audition.

Looking forward to your impressions with the different preamps. To me the amp has a clean slightly lean sound so I'm thinking the CJ might be a good match and sound really good. My Joule is somewhat neutral leaning to the warmer side, I call it romantic sounding. I purchased a premade 3118DL amp for my daughter and thought it was a bit warmer sounding than the Crown but not by much. It's been almost a year since I've heard it so I could be wrong about that, they're probably more alike than different except for power output of course.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: maplegrovemusic on 23 Mar 2015, 03:40 pm
Interested in comparing your NCore to the cherry amp?  Tommy is looking to do a comparison between  the two ....

Sure , send me the cherry and i will do a demo !
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: barryso on 24 Mar 2015, 12:44 pm
The crown has been delivered.  Man, that was fast.

There's a few days of insanity to get out of the way to open up the weekend for play time.  The amp will be put in the system in a couple of days and turned on to settle in for the weekend listening session.

 :thumb:
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: barryso on 25 Mar 2015, 02:38 pm
OK, the suspense was killing me so the crown went in the system for a quick listen.  I had about an hour.

The Marantz amps had been on all day so they were sounding a bit better than usual.  They are harmonically thin over all frequencies and lightweight in their bass presentation. They sound as if they were voiced to be used as surround speaker amps where clarity is most important and bass isn't going to be an issue.  When they warm up they are a bit more fleshed and sound a bit better but they aren't world class amps by any means.

The Marantz amps in their day were a reasonable amount of watts for the money, about $400 or $500 about 15 years ago.  Adjusted for inflation they'd be $800+ in today's dollars.

Even so, the Crown right out of the box was a bit warmer sounding and clearly has better bass.  The Crown is a better sounding amp.

The Crown responded about the same way most amps do to the Transcendent Sound balanced power supply. Directly into the wall the presentation was a bit thin in the mids and in the treble. Plugged into the power conditioner the mids gained some heft and some texture. It still isn't a harmonically rich presentation but it is better.

So as it stands right now the crown is better than the older inexpensive amps but not quite setting the world on fire.  The cables currently in the system worked well with the el-34 tube amp but didn't quite do it with the TPA3116.  Frankly it was the wrong wire to use with the Marantz amps and it isn't helping the Crown amp any so we'll try a cable swap next.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: a.wayne on 25 Mar 2015, 07:49 pm
Sure , send me the cherry and i will do a demo !

Ping tommy -O,  I'm sure you two can work it for inquiring minds, especially since the cherry is the best class-D amp in dah world .....  :)
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: maplegrovemusic on 25 Mar 2015, 10:44 pm
Ping tommy -O,  I'm sure you two can work it for inquiring minds, especially since the cherry is the best class-D amp in dah world .....  :)

Best in da world ? Cannot tell if you are serious awayne . How do you really feel ? :roll:
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: barryso on 28 Mar 2015, 02:28 am
Everyone who claimed the speaker connectors are poor were right on the money.  After doing a lot of listening I put the bare cables into speakon connectors.  Immediately noticed the mids and treble cleaned up considerably.  The tonality is better and a lot of grunge is gone.  It makes little sense as it added an additional connector in the signal path but it made quite a nice improvement.

Before the speakon connectors I was going to say the mids and treble were OK and fairly grain free but not clean enough for a long listening session.  The speakon connectors take it up at least a few steps.  The mids and highs are more to a level you'd expect in a more expensive amp and it sounds good.

No, the speakons didn't add the harmonic richness of a tube amp but they made a pretty astounding improvement.  I wouldn't have the right impression of the amp if this thread hadn't pointed out the connectors need help.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: jk@home on 28 Mar 2015, 11:50 am
If you do end up buying one of these, go for the Pomona binding post mod, which I felt bettered the Speakon connection method.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: barryso on 30 Mar 2015, 01:13 am
Thanks JK. The Pomona posts are a good idea as the subwoofer is connected through the binding posts.  If I decide on the amp it'll be a must do.

OK, after a good day of listening here are the notes from Barry's house of OCD.

Keep in mind my preference leans towards harmonically rich and not always accurate sound.  So what I describe as good might just be a little rich or thick sounding for a lot of folks.

Speakers
----------
The stand mounted nOrh 9's have a Scanspeak woofer and tweeter and the low end is handled by a REL sub.  Efficiency is in the mid to high 80's and they are a somewhat difficult load to drive.

The 9's are a bit laid back with the tube amps I've owned as the tube weren't capable of controlling the woofers with an iron fist.  The sweetness of the mids and highs were the trade off.  Good solid state amps control the woofers well and clean up the bass and lower bass and they get pretty resolving. The crown had no issue controlling the bass or driving the speakers cleanly and as loudly as I cared to listen.

The other speakers, the Ultras, are one of John Bush's open baffle speaker designs.  He graciously gives away the design for the Ultra (and the stand mounted Manzanita) on diyaudio.com. His crossover design is an easy load and very tube friendly but they are only low 80's efficient.  They do produce wonderful, plentiful, tuneful bass and I'd describe them as being laid back sounding.  A 40 to 80 watt tube amp can drive the Ultras very nicely and the crown had no trouble driving the Ultras.

The Ultras aren't resolving enough to be considered high end yet they are a very entertaining and pleasant speaker and they clearly reflected all the gear/amp changes.  I spent today with the Ultras and hope wrap things up with the 9's tomorrow.

conrad johnson PV-14L
---------------------------------
The CJ is the only preamp in the house that has a working remote and that made it a favorite going into the contest.

This was the preamp that I had thought would work well with the crown as it has a slightly dark and slightly rich sound and has 20+ db gain which seemed like the ticket to drive a pro amp. On paper this was the one.  This is the preamp I referred to in an earlier post as the tooby preamp although it isn't thick or sweet sounding like some tube gear.  Nice clarity and a bit laid back and maybe a bit rich sounding.

It's a good mating and very nice sounding as the CJ seems to add a bit of harmonic richness to the Crown.  This still isn't an overly rich or sweet presentation.

I can't decide if it's nicely balanced or too lean - but it isn't sweet.  It's clear and open.


Transcendent Sound Grounded Grid
---------------------------------------------------
Some folks complain the GG is too sterile sounding for a tube amp but it does add a touch of liquidity and harmonics to the sound ... it just isn't a sweet, syrupy sound.

I've always liked the grounded grid because it's sound is clear and dynamic and yet it adds a touch of harmonic richness.  It has a definite personality and it's one that always seems to push my buttons.

Yet there is a subtle veil over the sound with the crown and that has never been a description I've used with the Grounded Grid.  It doesn't have the clarity of the CJ or the sweetness of the Anthem in this situation. It's a compromise between the two other preamps and I'm not sure it works.

Anthem Pre2L
-------------
The Anthem Pre2L is tube preamp that sounds pretty.  This preamp isn't about accuracy, it's laid back and pretty sounding.  It gives up a lot of clarity for warmth and sweetness.  Bass notes are a bit rounded and a tad soft.

It has adjustable gain controls for 8, 16 and 24 db.  I'd thought the adjustable gain would be of value with driving a pro amp but the gain changes didn't do anything different with the Crown than with any other amp.  Even the 8 db gain seemed to be fine.

This is a lovely sounding combo with the Crown amp.  It adds a liquidity and body to the sound that is missing from the CJ or GG.  It loses out on clarity but adds richness and sweetness that is just lovely.  But it isn't accurate by any measure.

More tomorrow with the other speakers.  Less wordy, though.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: barryso on 30 Mar 2015, 05:56 pm
OK, a quick and dirty update.

There was an edge in the midrange that's been in the system for ages.  It was heard with the TPA3116 and Crown amps and all the preamplifiers.  Turns out it was the wall wart power supply for the Squeezebox ... unplugged it and most of the grunge went away.

So the thin aggressive quality that was bothering me through much of the weekend listening session is gone.  Between the removal of the wall wart and the addition of the speakon connectors the amp is starting to shine.

This is an amazing and frustrating hobby at times.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: guest61169 on 30 Mar 2015, 06:42 pm
I know what you mean.  In my video system, movies and songs playing on my Oppo were occasionally stuttering, due to a problem in a hard drive enclosure.  It even affected other thumb drives I had plugged into it.   Once I replaced the enclosure, all was well.   I suspect that the power supply in the old enclosure was pushing noise into the Oppo and everything else plugged into it. 
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: stonedeaf on 1 Apr 2015, 05:23 am
Listening to a couple of XLS-1500 for the last few days. I'm curious -does anyone know what ??bits  @ what frequency the A/D converters in these amps operate at ?
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: barryso on 1 Apr 2015, 12:34 pm
Noway ...

A case?  Wow, I've been doing computer work for decades and the only case issues are generally overheating. 

To All ...

OK, the Crown moves on today.  It's been quite a visit.

It's a lean,  good sounding amp on my speakers and gear.

The Crown likes the addition of sweet sounding tube gear (or at least I do).  The CJ is a slightly warm sounding tube preamp and the combo with the Crown was probably the most accurate and clearest sounding.  It was harmonically thin and a bit cold sounding to me, though, so a tube DAC was installed.  That sweetened things up nicely at the expense of some detail.

The Anthem tube preamp with the solid state DAC was also very lovely and even more tooby but at the expense of even more detail.

The Norh speakers sounded pretty nice with the subwoofer set a bit higher (frequency and output).  That fleshed out the midrange quite well.  It also muddied up the bass and lower bass just slightly but it was a good compromise.  When the tube dac was added it was possible to lower the sub a notch as the mids and highs were fleshed out a bit better.

So it was a great time, I found 4 or 5 things to improve on different parts of the system and it's sounding better that it has in some time.

Yet the Crown is more of a like than a love.  One may end up in the house for as the summer amp but I'm going to have to wait and see how much I miss it.

It isn't surprising.  At an audio show several years ago there was a system that really sounded wonderful to me as it was warm and fleshed out and pretty well detailed.  Last day of the show the owner of the (very nice) tube amps left and took the amps home with him.  I was listening to the same system with solid state amps and thinking to myself that it really didn't work anymore.  That's when the guy sitting next to me commented that the system now sounded excellent after getting rid of the (@#!) tubes.

Many, many thanks for being included in the tour.  It is very much appreciated.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: jk@home on 1 Apr 2015, 01:29 pm
Great write up, Barry, Guess I missed it, but what tube DAC are you using?
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: barryso on 1 Apr 2015, 08:48 pm
Many thanks.

The solid state dac is a Bel Canto Dac-2 and the tube dac is a Paradisea.  Both have very different presentations and are kind of opposite of one another.

The odd thing is the solid state dac doesn't sound quite right with the el-34 tube amp and on paper they should be wonderful together and kind of balance each other out.  And on paper the tube dac should be too tooby with the tube amp.  But the tube dac and tube amp play really well together.

This is such an odd hobby sometimes.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: roscoeiii on 1 Apr 2015, 09:11 pm
Odd hobby indeed.

How'd I end up with an amp this inexpensive as part of the best my system has ever sounded. The SP Techs and DEQX and iTube play a role there too. But damn, the XLS price is what allows me to put my resources to the other fine pieces of gear.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Tomy2Tone on 1 Apr 2015, 09:51 pm
Just wanted to say that the "tour" is officially over and thanks to all the participants who graciously took part and passed on the amp to the next party.

This tour far exceeded my expectations and had way more interest than I originally thought it would incur.

Thank guys for having a great time with this and keeping things cordial!

-Tom
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: DaveC113 on 1 Apr 2015, 10:01 pm
Thanks for providing the tour amps, it was fun to hear how the Crown worked in a variety of systems.  :thumb:
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: roscoeiii on 1 Apr 2015, 10:05 pm
Just wanted to say that the "tour" is officially over and thanks to all the participants who graciously took part and passed on the amp to the next party.

This tour far exceeded my expectations and had way more interest than I originally thought it would incur.

Thank guys for having a great time with this and keeping things cordial!

-Tom

Thank you so much for your fabulous generosity! These tours are a real joy.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: SteveFord on 1 Apr 2015, 10:25 pm
Yes, thank you.  The tour was a lot of fun and I actually learned some things and it didn't make my head hurt.
Imagine that.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: rodge827 on 1 Apr 2015, 10:39 pm
Many thanks Tom for your generosity supporting this tour. It was fun to learn how the XLS 1500 performed in different systems.  :D

Chris
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: jk@home on 1 Apr 2015, 11:31 pm
Many thanks.

The solid state dac is a Bel Canto Dac-2 and the tube dac is a Paradisea.  Both have very different presentations and are kind of opposite of one another.

The odd thing is the solid state dac doesn't sound quite right with the el-34 tube amp and on paper they should be wonderful together and kind of balance each other out.  And on paper the tube dac should be too tooby with the tube amp.  But the tube dac and tube amp play really well together.

This is such an odd hobby sometimes.

Thanks. I think I will try one of those iTubes after my SS DAC (as a no-gain buffer only) , to see what all the buzz is about.

And thanks to all who participated in this tour!
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: gregfisk on 1 Apr 2015, 11:42 pm
Yes Tom,

Thank you very much for putting on this tour, I really liked reading different peoples takes on the sound of the Crown and what they liked and/or didn't like about it. I enjoyed trying it in my system as well, it was fun to compare it to the other amps I have and now knowing what it's all about.

I ended up buying one for a friend who is going to have about 10 pair of outdoor speakers at a cabin of his and the Crown will be perfect as it's clean power and a lot of it :thumb:

Thanks again Tom,

Greg
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: OzarkTom on 2 Apr 2015, 12:21 am
Tom, these tours are fun and thanks for this tour.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: ZAKski288 on 2 Apr 2015, 01:19 am
Tom,   Thanks for providing the tour amp, and the many months of debates and tweak ideas. I was not part of the Crown tour amp. Be I already owned     
            one powering my subwoofer.  This is really a great amp for the money. I used many of the tweaks and still working on the new black faceplate.
           
                Thanks again  ZAK
                                                                                                     
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: rodge827 on 2 Apr 2015, 02:28 am
Zac,

If you can figure a way to get the display to turn off please pass it on. Mine looks like a bad Jr High project with black electrical tape covering most of the front and top. Looks real sexy with the lights on  :roll: .

Chris
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: guest61169 on 2 Apr 2015, 04:57 am
Zac,

If you can figure a way to get the display to turn off please pass it on. Mine looks like a bad Jr High project with black electrical tape covering most of the front and top. Looks real sexy with the lights on  :roll: .

Chris

I don't mind mine...
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=118159)
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: jk@home on 2 Apr 2015, 11:27 am
I don't mind mine...

Ditto, did the same here, looks fine. The length of tape needed is 1-5/8", Laid it out on some old scrap laminate and used a square and razor knife for a clean cut.  Applied with tweezers and Q- tips.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Odal3 on 2 Apr 2015, 01:39 pm
Thanks Tom and everyone else contributing to this thread. It's been fun following along and reading about the impressions.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: ZAKski288 on 2 Apr 2015, 09:23 pm
 rodge827,  Maybe this might help with the brightness.(Picture is brighter than it really appears).  1/8" thick tinted acrylic sheet, buff the edges, and attached with some double sided tape.  ZAK
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=118210)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=118212)

Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: jk@home on 3 Apr 2015, 12:24 pm
So I ordered an iTube, not to raise the gain to the Crown amps, but as a tube buffer after the DAC, and to try the processing circuits. I also will try it between pre and amps, as I already have some unbalanced to balance cables made up. Guess it is the modern day X-10D (have one of those too, pretty grungy  :roll: :)).

I didn't realize until reading the reviews (which there are quite a few out there) that the chief designer is Thorsten Loesch. Pretty cool, I've read his posts on AA for years, and he even helped me sort out some circuits in a balance cable setup I was doing, via email. He's big time now. :D

So who here is using one of the processing circuits on their iTube and how does it help with the Crown?
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: roscoeiii on 3 Apr 2015, 02:02 pm
I like the iTube with  the 6db gain in my system. Try it both ways. And I use the 3D setting as well. Look forward to hearing about your experience.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: rodge827 on 3 Apr 2015, 02:15 pm
I use my iTube between a Dspeaker Antimode Dual Core 2.0 and XLS1500 with 6db gain. The Dual Core has low output and the added gain was necessary to drive the Crown and increase the range of attenuation. If possible try and get a 9v linear power supply. The improvement is seriously noticeable, I got a modded Astron SL 11A for a little over $100.00. Or iFi has since developed an upgraded wall wort power supply (iPower) for $49.00, contact the iFi distributor and order one.

http://ifi-audio.com/portfolio-view/accessory-ipower/

Chris
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: rodge827 on 3 Apr 2015, 02:19 pm
rodge827,  Maybe this might help with the brightness.(Picture is brighter than it really appears).  1/8" thick tinted acrylic sheet, buff the edges, and attached with some double sided tape.  ZAK


Zac thanks for the reply I will try the tinted acrylic...anything will look better that this...


(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=118286)

(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=118287)
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: roscoeiii on 3 Apr 2015, 02:23 pm
rodge827,  Maybe this might help with the brightness.(Picture is brighter than it really appears).  1/8" thick tinted acrylic sheet, buff the edges, and attached with some double sided tape.  ZAK
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=118210)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=118212)

Zak, any chance you can hook some of us up with those acrylic Plates? Not to handy myself...
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: jk@home on 3 Apr 2015, 02:35 pm
I use my iTube between a Dspeaker Antimode Dual Core 2.0 and XLS1500 with 6db gain. The Dual Core has low output and the added gain was necessary to drive the Crown and increase the range of attenuation. If possible try and get a 9v linear power supply. The improvement is seriously noticeable, I got a modded Astron SL 11A for a little over $100.00. Or iFi has since developed an upgraded wall wort power supply (iPower) for $49.00, contact the iFi distributor and order one.

http://ifi-audio.com/portfolio-view/accessory-ipower/

Chris

I got a giggle out of one of the review, the author stated that iFi was strongly against using an aftermarket power supply. Then the first comment out of the gate, on the bottom of the page was a Astron recommendation.  :lol:

Zac thanks for the reply I will try the tinted acrylic...anything will look better that this...

Another cosmetic change one can do is get some black touch up paint to cover or dim the blue light on the power push button. Then all that is left is the dim blue light inside and the level meters.  My meters barely get off the bottom scale, so just did the taped display myself.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: ZAKski288 on 3 Apr 2015, 03:41 pm
Zak, any chance you can hook some of us up with those acrylic Plates? Not to handy myself...

I have some extra material,  so PM me your address, one or two amps? .  ZAK
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: a.wayne on 3 Apr 2015, 04:36 pm
Just wanted to say that the "tour" is officially over and thanks to all the participants who graciously took part and passed on the amp to the next party.

This tour far exceeded my expectations and had way more interest than I originally thought it would incur.

Thank guys for having a great time with this and keeping things cordial!

-Tom


A big thanks Tommy , it was fun reading all the different perspectives .....  :D
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: barryso on 4 Apr 2015, 01:53 am
To hide the brightness...

I was toying with a wooden face plate about the size of the entire front of the amp.  Stain it or paint it black to make it look good.

It would rest on the two protruding parts on either side of the face plate.  It could be held in place with a 4 nice bolts that would reach back to the rack mount holes.

That should give the front vents enough space to function properly.  It would be a pain to get to the power and other controls, though.  It would make the Crown look more like an audio component.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: steve f on 4 Apr 2015, 05:33 am
I really enjoyed reading reading all of the tour comments. My schedule did not allow me to join in directly. You guys did inspire me to purchase a couple of XLS 1500s though. I added my comments from that perspective.

I remain impressed with the honesty, civility, and humor,  the members of this forum brought to this very long, and still active topic. Tommy, my hat is off to you for making a cool thing happen.

steve
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: guest61169 on 4 Apr 2015, 12:22 pm
To hide the brightness...

You could take a piece of 19" long black plexiglass and hold it up to the rack mount ears, drill 4 holes and black zip tie it to the rack mount holes.  Drill ventilation holes through some of plexi in the fan area.  You can even find a Crown logo on Google Images and print it and put it on the front.  Also, you guys know about Light Dims, right?

http://www.ebay.ca/itm/Light-Dims-Black-Out-Edition-LightDims-/191434141108?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2c925d2db4
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: OzarkTom on 4 Apr 2015, 12:44 pm
So I ordered an iTube, not to raise the gain to the Crown amps, but as a tube buffer after the DAC, and to try the processing circuits. I also will try it between pre and amps, as I already have some unbalanced to balance cables made up. Guess it is the modern day X-10D (have one of those too, pretty grungy  :roll: :)).

I didn't realize until reading the reviews (which there are quite a few out there) that the chief designer is Thorsten Loesch. Pretty cool, I've read his posts on AA for years, and he even helped me sort out some circuits in a balance cable setup I was doing, via email. He's big time now. :D

So who here is using one of the processing circuits on their iTube and how does it help with the Crown?

Thorsten Loesch is one of the ultimate tweekster's in the audio world. Not only is his AMR products some of the best sounding, he has stepped up the great value into his IFI products. This now allows the C&C crowd to own some of his products.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: jk@home on 4 Apr 2015, 01:23 pm
Digging up more info on the iTube last night, found out the manufacturer states that using the 6dB gain setting will give more of a "tube effect" than with the no gain setting. So I guess I will be trying it between pre and the two Crown amps for sure.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: roscoeiii on 4 Apr 2015, 02:20 pm
Digging up more info on the iTube last night, found out the manufacturer states that using the 6dB gain setting will give more of a "tube effect" than with the no gain setting. So I guess I will be trying it between pre and the two Crown amps for sure.

Interesting. And very curious about the new iPower supply vs. Astron that folks dig so much.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: jk@home on 4 Apr 2015, 03:22 pm
Interesting. And very curious about the new iPower supply vs. Astron that folks dig so much.

I haven't found it listed on any iFi dealer's web sites for sale yet (Music Direct, etc.) Must be really new.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: rodge827 on 4 Apr 2015, 05:21 pm
You could take a piece of 19" long black plexiglass and hold it up to the rack mount ears, drill 4 holes and black zip tie it to the rack mount holes.  Drill ventilation holes through some of plexi in the fan area.  You can even find a Crown logo on Google Images and print it and put it on the front.  Also, you guys know about Light Dims, right?

http://www.ebay.ca/itm/Light-Dims-Black-Out-Edition-LightDims-/191434141108?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2c925d2db4

noway,
No I hadn't know about Light Dims, looks like a good product, thanks for link.  :D

I haven't found it listed on any iFi dealer's web sites for sale yet (Music Direct, etc.) Must be really new.

Yes they are very new. I had called Avatar Acoustics (NA iFi Dist) the other day about the iPower and they hope to get some in soon. iFi has a long history of releasing information about their products and slooowly supplying it to market.

Chris
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: jk@home on 6 Apr 2015, 01:54 pm
I like the iTube with  the 6db gain in my system. Try it both ways. And I use the 3D setting as well. Look forward to hearing about your experience.

Still breaking in the iTube, but right off the bat, I am really liking that 3D setting! It doesn't seem to effect imaging or transparency, but gives the KEFs a larger, more "di-pole" sound. The Digital Antidote appears to be helping smooth out my old CI VDA-2 also. If there is any con, it may be that the bass is reduced a touch. But that's fixable in my system.

Back on the other class D thread, where the Crown train left the station, someone mentioned that my old Dodds preamp wasn't "tubey" enough. Have to agree with that now, the iTube effect was apparent right away.

Best place in my chain seems to be between DAC and pre, with no gain. I tried the 6dB setting, before and after the preamp, it really didn't make much difference for the better (going by the pre's volume setting). So I'm keeping the balanced Mogamis in between the NuForce pre and Crowns, with the iTube upstream. My pre has a 10 dB gain, so I'm good there.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: barryso on 19 Apr 2015, 01:31 pm
Just a follow up with the Raspberry Pi 2 and Hifiberry Digi combo.  It's got some time on it and I've been able to compare it to the Squeezebox several times.  Both the Pi and the Squeezebox are feeding a DAC through a coax cable.

To my ear, the Pi/Digi combo is clearer sounding and a bit more dynamic than the Squeezebox.  It's a nice improvement. 

The Pi/Digi sounds a bit different running different software, too, but those differences seem to be more system dependent so there isn't one piece of software that would sound best to all.   But even with the software differences the Pi/Digi is an upgrade to the (non-modified) Squeezebox.

The Hifiberry boards are now available from a Canadian company so I didn't have to order it from Switzerland.  My order was delivered in about a week and they were very helpful.  The whole pile of parts (Pi, power supply, micro SD card, case, Hifiberr Digi, etc.) was about $150 after the conversion to US dollars which is about 1/2 what the Squeezebox cost in 2007.

If you can tinker with small computers then the Pi/Digi is a very good upgrade for a silly amount of money.

The Squeezebox is now going to be used at my workbench so I can access my music collection and Internet streaming while working.  That alone was worth the money spent.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: SlyFuu on 19 Apr 2015, 04:16 pm
I'm too lazy to post from my computer so I'll keep it short.

Crown announced that they're coming out with a new generation of these amps. Details can be found here: http://www.crownaudio.com/en/product_families/xls-drivecore-2-series

It looks like Amazon is trying to clear their stock on the first gen. Currently lowest I've seen. http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B003HZV2JS/ref=mp_s_a_1_1?qid=1429459678&sr=8-1&keywords=xls+1500&dpPl=1&dpID=31orWwoPd5L&ref=plSrch&pi=AC_SX200_QL40
Title: Re: Crown XLS - for the rest of us!
Post by: srb on 19 Apr 2015, 04:30 pm
Crown announced that they're coming out with a new generation of these amps. Details can be found here: http://www.crownaudio.com/en/product_families/xls-drivecore-2-series (http://www.crownaudio.com/en/product_families/xls-drivecore-2-series)

With people either taping over the display and lights or going to the trouble to try and fabricate some kind of front panel for the present not-so-attractive DriveCore, besides having increased DSP capabilities, the new (black) DriveCore 2 Series also has

"increased lighting functionality; turn off display or any/all LED indicators except clip and thermal to reduce distraction in dark venues"

Steve
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: roscoeiii on 19 Apr 2015, 04:47 pm
Adjustable input sensitivity and more DSP are the other details that jumped out at me.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: OzarkTom on 19 Apr 2015, 04:56 pm
According to this article, available in June and priced $299-599. I guess I need to sell a couple of 1500's right away. The amps even has a sleepmode.

http://www.prosoundweb.com/article/crown_introduces_upgraded_xls_drivecore_2_amplifiers/
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: rodge827 on 20 Apr 2015, 01:43 am
I like the new look and the new features but...Is this the same sounding amp with a few extra bells and whistles in an updated chassis? :scratch:
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: roscoeiii on 20 Apr 2015, 02:50 am
I like the new look and the new features but...Is this the same sounding amp with a few extra bells and whistles in an updated chassis? :scratch:

Excellent question
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: OzarkTom on 20 Apr 2015, 02:53 am
I like the new look and the new features but...Is this the same sounding amp with a few extra bells and whistles in an updated chassis? :scratch:

Very likely, it does not sound like they changed anything else.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: jk@home on 29 Apr 2015, 12:32 am
Just an FYI for folks who are using an iFi with their Crown amps, Music Direct has the iPower page up now. Ordered one.

http://www.musicdirect.com/p-322395-ifi-ipower-power-supply.aspx
http://
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: roscoeiii on 29 Apr 2015, 01:07 am
Please report back on that one.

Bold claims for that psu.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: jk@home on 29 Apr 2015, 01:17 am
Yeah, if it is as good as they claim, I'll get a 5v one for my old Squeezebox classic (now using an Elpac).
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: rodge827 on 29 Apr 2015, 01:50 am
Please report back on that one.

Bold claims for that psu.

Yeah I agree, I might check one out too...gotta check the return policy
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: RDavidson on 29 Apr 2015, 02:04 am
My bad.  :oops:
I reposted a link.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: OzarkTom on 29 Apr 2015, 02:24 am
Yeah I agree, I might check one out too...gotta check the return policy

You might want to call them and check stock. It says 4-6 weeks delivery as an estimate. I believe Music Direct has a 30 day return policy.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: mjosef on 29 Apr 2015, 04:35 am
(http://adn.harmanpro.com/product_attachments/product_attachments/2429_1428700210/XLS_DriveCore_2_2002_Front_lightbox.png)

Looks sharp.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: jk@home on 29 Apr 2015, 11:25 am
You might want to call them and check stock. It says 4-6 weeks delivery as an estimate. I believe Music Direct has a 30 day return policy.

Yeah, I figured it was more like a pre-order.


Looks sharp.
.
I have read of more DSP capacities, but I wish they would of made the DSP control to be totally disabled (I'm assuming not).
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Folsom on 29 Apr 2015, 07:05 pm
Where the internal pictures?!

OTom,you ever get the one I did cryo'd?
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Odal3 on 7 May 2015, 03:23 am
Anyone had an opportunity to try the Crown with the AVA ABX comparator?

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=134297.0

See link in this thread to some interesting input from a reviewer, and especially part 3 of the lengthy write-up.

"It seemed incredible, but I was switching sighted between a solid-state design and tube design of different manufacturers in real time, and when level matched there was no shift of any sort in any aspect of sound while listening to any piece of music! My assessment was confirmed by ABX testing, as the only time I failed the blind testing consistently was when comparing level matched amps! "

"Perhaps I should have softened my declaration that all amps through the ABX Comparator are identical sounding. They were the same sounding with similar speakers, and perhaps it’s good that the review went that course, for it might inform audiophiles who wish to transform their listening experience to select a significantly different speaker for maximum change to their system, rather than merely another similar speaker. It might also imply that it would be more difficult to transform a system through change of an amp than a speaker."
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: roscoeiii on 7 May 2015, 12:39 pm
Crossed my mind too. Not sure if Doug the reviewer kept the ABX or not, but he is right up  the road in Milwaukee.
Title: Linkwitz LXmini use ?
Post by: stonedeaf on 7 May 2015, 01:53 pm
Has anybody used a pair of XLS to drive a LXmini setup from S. Linkwitz yet ? If so -what'd ya think of the combination ?
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: steve f on 11 May 2015, 04:46 am
The crowns would be dramatic overkill power wise for that application. I'd look for a AV type 4 channel unit instead. I have a pair of XLS 1500's that are just idling along on a high efficiency system. It's overkill. The Minis are a nice speaker system, but I don't see the need for pro power. I'd look elsewhere.

Steve
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: tdinut on 23 May 2015, 03:00 pm
bump




Anyone ordering one of these?


(http://adn.harmanpro.com/product_attachments/product_attachments/2429_1428700210/XLS_DriveCore_2_2002_Front_lightbox.png)
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: thepianist on 25 May 2015, 11:20 pm
I have just tried a 2000 with my power-hungry Eminent Technology LFT-VI speakers -- some say they need solid 1000w per channel. The sound quality is pretty good -- the amp has decent control of the speakers, there is good  clarity, though soundstage seems a bit compressed compared to my self-made gainclone (with dual 7A linear regulated power supplies). The gainclone, however, didn't have enough power for the speakers.

As a modder myself, I have decided to make some changes to the 2000. However, I don't have the schematics. Does anyone know where i could source it? Or, does anyone which caps are the input DC-eliminating caps (I probably want to start from there)? Thank you!
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: JLM on 28 May 2015, 12:31 pm
Can one of you Crown XLS experts PM me (and better yet also post to this thread) with a summary (recommended model, high/low points, tips)?  May need to replace 100 wpc power amp and am too lazy to wade through all 1388 posts.  Not looking for state of the art, could end up being a rather short term solution anyway.

From a quick search, some are saying THD is high, S/N ratio is mediocre, over-rated wattage, build quality is iffy, and soundstage is not detailed/convincing.  But for $300 (only need 80 watts peak) it's probably doable (especially short term).  On the plus side is the high value, DriveCore protective power supply, peak limiter, and to a lesser degree in my case the built-in crossover.

TIA
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: roscoeiii on 28 May 2015, 02:34 pm
In a nutshell for me, it seems to like a tube in front of it. I'm using an iTube as a buffer with +6dB gain. True to its pro audio roots, it also seems to pair well with a bit of higher strength signal (thus the +6dB). A great fit for my power hungry speakers (SP Tech Revelations). Jackman and I preferred it to his ncore in my system, but preferred the ncore in his system. One reason could have been speaker differences, but we also suspected this might be because his preamp is quite forward. Also, I and other have found that the sweet spot for the gain is maybe between 1 and 3 o'clock, rather than turned all the way up. Loses some of the less desirable characteristics when not turned all the way up.

Helluva bargain of an amp. Really like mine.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: stonedeaf on 28 May 2015, 02:43 pm
I don't think anyone whose listened to one of these will say it sounds like a good A/B amp (better/worse -but not the same). Talked one of my friends who has enjoyed his Van Alstine St-70 for years into trying one out. He returned it within 48 hours. OTOH -I'm using two of these in a bar system that I've been maintaining for 40 years . I listened to two of them for about 10 days  in my home system and they grew on me. But it's a "different" sound -no getting around it. My suggestion would be get it from a retailer that allows returns -they are light enough that paying return shipping is not very expensive.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Steve on 28 May 2015, 03:30 pm
Quote
..... and I preferred it to his ncore in my system, but preferred the ncore in his system. One reason could have been speaker differences, but we also suspected this might be because his preamp is quite forward.

Just a note, my SAS preamplifier, I can guarantee the "quite forward" character is Not from my preamplifier. Years and years of special listening testing, as well as customer reviews, confirm my preamplifiers does Not distort, lessen the depth of the soundstage to give a "quite forward" presentation. It also does not artificiallyl add depth/soundstage. It is quite accurate/natural to the recording. There is obviously another reason.

I just want to make sure a false comment does not turn into a false rumor.

Cheers
Steve
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: mcgsxr on 28 May 2015, 04:37 pm
It was a long and interesting read, these 70 pages.

Thanks to the many who took the time and energy to try the amp, and share in the fun with shipping it all around.

Thanks to OzarkTom I ended up buying one today (Pomona posts, cryo'd 1500) and look forward to seeing how it plays in my setup.  No doubt will take a few weeks to reach Canada.

I expect my Totem Model 1's will be a good candidate for the power.  They are 4 ohm, and mid 80's efficient.  Most folks who rave about them, love them with 200wpc or more.  I figure the rated 525wpc of the 1500 should be an interesting mix.   I actually don't listen loud at all mind you, peaks at 90db or so via my iPhone spl app.

I will be able to try direct out of my DAC (modded Grant Fidelity DAC-11), and via a Yamaha integrated as the pre.  Could even try my Pioneer AVR as the pre if I get all motivated.

I will certainly report back what I hear.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: OzarkTom on 28 May 2015, 10:41 pm

OTom,you ever get the one I did cryo'd?

I have not. I sold the cryo amp to mcgsxr , now to get the other one cryo'd. I just had too many amps, I need to sell some of my others. The Salis 1500 is the last Crown I have. I may also buy one of the new ones and see if it sounds any different than this series.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Folsom on 29 May 2015, 04:22 am
I have not. I sold the cryo amp to mcgsxr , now to get the other one cryo'd. I just had too many amps, I need to sell some of my others. The Salis 1500 is the last Crown I have. I may also buy one of the new ones and see if it sounds any different than this series.

Well, I suppose that's a good review :lol:
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: mresseguie on 29 May 2015, 07:07 am
I have just tried a 2000 with my power-hungry Eminent Technology LFT-VI speakers -- some say they need solid 1000w per channel. The sound quality is pretty good -- the amp has decent control of the speakers, there is good  clarity, though soundstage seems a bit compressed compared to my self-made gainclone (with dual 7A linear regulated power supplies). The gainclone, however, didn't have enough power for the speakers.

As a modder myself, I have decided to make some changes to the 2000. However, I don't have the schematics. Does anyone know where i could source it? Or, does anyone which caps are the input DC-eliminating caps (I probably want to start from there)? Thank you!

Hello, pianist.

I think I've read every post in this thread, but with so many posts it's hard to remember if someone posted a schematic.

Does anyone recall such a post, or know where to find one?

Michael
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: mcgsxr on 10 Jun 2015, 12:12 pm
The Crown XLS 1500 is up and running at my place.

Having read this entire thread, I will let it run for 24 hours before moving to serious listening.

I can already say that the Totem Model 1's do indeed respond well to more power.

I am running my modded Grant Fidelity DAC-11 directly into the power amp.   Gain pots set around 11 or 12 so far.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: brother love on 10 Jun 2015, 01:47 pm
mcgsxr,

Looking forward to your review with the XLS-1500 mated with the TubeDAC-11.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: stonedeaf on 10 Jun 2015, 01:54 pm
I don't believe Crown has supplied a schematic to anyone yet ?And given the complexity of the custom IC that is the "brains" of these things - if it doesn't originate from Crown it won't tell you much. Has anyone contacted Crown directly and asked for a schematic ?
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Wind Chaser on 10 Jun 2015, 05:08 pm
The Crown XLS 1500 is up and running at my place.

Did you find / buy your XLS in Canada?
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: mcgsxr on 10 Jun 2015, 05:59 pm
I had been searching the Toronto Kijiji and Craigslist ads for weeks but never found one for anything less than $500 new in Canada.

I was lucky enough to connect with OzarkTom who sold me his cryo'd 1500.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: mcgsxr on 12 Jun 2015, 02:42 pm
Review posted in the Critic's Circle here - http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=135214.new#new (http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=135214.new#new)

Net net, its a keeper for me and I am glad I found one.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Jack Gilvey on 15 Jul 2015, 04:41 pm
These seem to be coming down in price with the intro. of the XX02's. Bought an XLS 2000 new for $280 a couple weeks ago and see them for $250 now (B&H).  Truly wonderful with the MMG's - opens them right up dynamically and highs seem perfect to me (1-ohm resistor on the MMG tweeter).
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: SlyFuu on 15 Jul 2015, 07:59 pm
I was thinking of picking up an XLS 1500 on B&H for 209. I'd like to see how this would pair with the Marantz SR5008 in my HT setup. I haven't been completely happy with the Marantz sound wise since I bought it. I feel like it's a bit warm for my taste.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: roscoeiii on 15 Jul 2015, 09:39 pm
I was thinking of picking up an XLS 1500 on B&H for 209. I'd like to see how this would pair with the Marantz SR5008 in my HT setup. I haven't been completely happy with the Marantz sound wise since I bought it. I feel like it's a bit warm for my taste.

Sly Fuu, I'd go with the 2000 or 2500 for not much more. IIRC they have a bit better specs and the price difference between the 1500 and 2000 is pretty small these days.

XLS would be a good choice if your other amp is too warm.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: bearman2 on 15 Jul 2015, 09:44 pm
SlyFuu, try eBay and the seller with who you can make an offer. I purchased a xls 2000 at a great price plus free shipping. I think you can score a 1500 for under $200. The new models are arriving and room must be made.   jw
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: rodge827 on 15 Jul 2015, 11:35 pm
Sly Fuu, I'd go with the 2000 or 2500 for not much more. IIRC they have a bit better specs and the price difference between the 1500 and 2000 is pretty small these days.

XLS would be a good choice if your other amp is too warm.

The 1500, 2000, and 2500 have the same specs except for wattage output. The 1000 is the one with not quite as good specs.

http://www.crownaudio.com/en-US/products/compare?utf8=%E2%9C%93&product_ids[]=xls-1000&product_ids[]=xls-1500&product_ids[]=xls-2000&product_ids[]=xls-2500&commit=Compare+Selected+Products

Paste complete link to your browser and see a comparison chart.

Chris

Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: roscoeiii on 16 Jul 2015, 01:07 am
The 1500, 2000, and 2500 have the same specs except for wattage output. The 1000 is the one with not quite as good specs.


Oh right. I was confusing 1000 and 1500.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: rodge827 on 16 Jul 2015, 01:28 am
Oh right. I was confusing 1000 and 1500.

Easy enough to do Roscoe I had to check myself. Are you still using a XLS with your SP Tech's?
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: roscoeiii on 16 Jul 2015, 02:41 am
Easy enough to do Roscoe I had to check myself. Are you still using a XLS with your SP Tech's?

Yep, and loving the combo. Those speakers love power.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: rufusblues on 21 Jul 2015, 02:56 pm
Hi. New to this thread and to Audiocircle. Have been using a Crown XLS 2500 for about a year now. Upgraded power cord to Triode Wire Labs Digital HC (cost more than the amp!) and use all Triode Wire Labs cabling. Have been using Tekton M Lore until recently with TBI subwoofer; sold those to a friend and using the Lore Reference now along with the TBI sub. Oppo BDP105, also with Triode Wire Labs digital ac cable, directly into Crown amp via xlr inputs. Also using Bybee Signal Enhancers, one over the power supply of the Crown, and two under the Oppo. I feel I have tricked out the Crown to the max(!) but was wondering about adding the IFI tube buffer which you guys seem to love. BUT, my interconnects have xlr connectors and I am told that using adapters will not work as there is not enough room in the back of the buffer. I do not want to start replacing the interconnects. Anyhow, there is the Yaquin buffer on Amazon for $200, but not sure about how that would work in the system. I would rather not complicate things with a tube preamp (I have had all manner of equipment in my 40 years into this hobby...tubes (pp, se), solid state (class a, gainclone, etc.), many different speakers, cables). I would like to keep things simple, which is a nice thing about the IFI tube buffer. Any thoughts? Have wondered if it's worth trying a First Watt amp, whether that would be a significant 'upgrade'...though costly considering the price of the Crown! Some of you have had experience with the First Watt amps as well.
Thanks!
Stew
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: rufusblues on 21 Jul 2015, 11:07 pm
Too curious about the First Watt amps to pass up a home demo of an M2 model. It may be the other extreme from the Crown, we shall see. But should be enough juice to drive the Tektons in our medium sized room. 
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: opnly bafld on 21 Jul 2015, 11:42 pm
Too curious about the First Watt amps to pass up a home demo of an M2 model. It may be the other extreme from the Crown, we shall see. But should be enough juice to drive the Tektons in our medium sized room.

Welcome to AC; let us know how it turns out.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Mojo Warrior on 22 Jul 2015, 11:55 pm
Hi. New to this thread and to Audiocircle. Have been using a Crown XLS 2500 for about a year now. Upgraded power cord to Triode Wire Labs Digital HC (cost more than the amp!) and use all Triode Wire Labs cabling. Have been using Tekton M Lore until recently with TBI subwoofer; sold those to a friend and using the Lore Reference now along with the TBI sub. Oppo BDP105, also with Triode Wire Labs digital ac cable, directly into Crown amp via xlr inputs. Also using Bybee Signal Enhancers, one over the power supply of the Crown, and two under the Oppo. I feel I have tricked out the Crown to the max(!) but was wondering about adding the IFI tube buffer which you guys seem to love. BUT, my interconnects have xlr connectors and I am told that using adapters will not work as there is not enough room in the back of the buffer. I do not want to start replacing the interconnects. Anyhow, there is the Yaquin buffer on Amazon for $200, but not sure about how that would work in the system. I would rather not complicate things with a tube preamp (I have had all manner of equipment in my 40 years into this hobby...tubes (pp, se), solid state (class a, gainclone, etc.), many different speakers, cables). I would like to keep things simple, which is a nice thing about the IFI tube buffer. Any thoughts? Have wondered if it's worth trying a First Watt amp, whether that would be a significant 'upgrade'...though costly considering the price of the Crown! Some of you have had experience with the First Watt amps as well.
Thanks!
Stew

It seems like you already have the ideal set-up. Oppo directly into the XLS via XLR. Introducing tubes will introduce the euphonic distortions that accompany tubes. You have experience with tubes. If you like that sound go for it. Otherwise, you cannot beat a straight wire with gain for musical purity. Good amps do not have a sound signature. The biggest sonic change you could make would be to change speakers. But personally, I love my XLS and Tektons.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: roscoeiii on 23 Jul 2015, 01:27 am
Too curious about the First Watt amps to pass up a home demo of an M2 model. It may be the other extreme from the Crown, we shall see. But should be enough juice to drive the Tektons in our medium sized room.

Like others, I very much like the iTube in front of the Crown, with the 6 dB boost which lets me lower the gain on the Crown. That boost may be a bad idea with the more sensitive Tektons. But hey, don't just listen to me. Try the iTunes from a vendor like Music Direct with a good return policy.

Will ve very interested in how you like the M2 compared to the Crown. I've had both. And they are quite different sounding amps. Which is better will depend on your system and your personal preferences.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: RDavidson on 23 Jul 2015, 02:51 am
Too curious about the First Watt amps to pass up a home demo of an M2 model. It may be the other extreme from the Crown, we shall see. But should be enough juice to drive the Tektons in our medium sized room.

I like Pass amps very much and had an M2 for awhile. It's the amp that started me on my journey into class A SS, and high efficiency speakers, etc. etc. What I'll say is that the M2 is different. Some like it. Some don't. Nelson hesitated to bring it to market. This doesn't make it a "bad" amp. Not at all. Like I said, it lead me to explore further down the class A SS path. One must keep in mind that all First Watt amps are built with different goals and ideas in mind. So, each First Watt amp has it's own characteristic sound within the First Watt house. None of them are really intended to be universally usable / pleasing to all. I won't comment on my M2 experience further (yet). I think you'll find it unique and definitely different from the Crown in ways you'll likely enjoy and in other ways you might not. Please post your thoughts when you've had a chance to test and compare. :thumb:
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: roscoeiii on 23 Jul 2015, 02:55 am
+1 to the above comment.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: OzarkTom on 23 Jul 2015, 03:10 am
My buddy Rex use to own a First Watt J2, but prefers the XLS over that one.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: RDavidson on 23 Jul 2015, 04:37 am
That's interesting. I had a J2 for about a year also. REALLY liked that amp with my Omegas. The J2 was built with single driver speaker use in mind (not that it couldn't be used well with other speaker types), so it probably isn't coincidental I enjoyed the synergistic pairing so much.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: rufusblues on 23 Jul 2015, 11:16 am
Thanks everyone for your input. I should have the amp next week, with 10 days to make up my mind. I think it will be clear much sooner than that if the amp stays or goes. In an email correspondence with Nelson, he said himself that this amp is not for everyone, it has its' admirers.....and I will find out what camp I fall into. He's a straight shooter.

Roscoeiii, I noticed you've owned several First Watt amps, but didn't realize you also owned the M2 model? In any case, if the M2 doesn't work out, I may try the tube buffer route. I have xlr cables and I was told that the adapters would not fit into the unit (too crowded a space for the rca jacks), but I will use the appropriate rca interconnects to at least be able to check it out.

I will be sticking with the Tektons though. A really great, all around speaker, especially for the price. And don't get me wrong, I think the combination of the Crown and the Tektons is pretty incredible in many ways! But I also don't think it's an 'accident' that many of you have some tubes in the chain somewhere with the Crown amp.....And I won't get into the straight wire with gain debate. I may be wrong, but I think I am finding that neutral, neutral, neutral may be too much of a good thing, as can too much coloration. Finding out what sounds best in ones own system and listening environment seems key, and we all have our personal preferences. For example, I am particularly sensitive to top end harshness, brightness. Where some may prefer a sparkly, etched treble.....I may be going for less air and sparkle. Nothing 'wrong' with either, as I see it. (I am not, in this example, necessarily referring to the Crown amp; like I said, I think it's an amazing amp with great potential, as I have found out with all the changes I made this past year since owning it).
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: woodsyi on 23 Jul 2015, 01:24 pm
Don't  know if this is good price or not but Musician's Friend site has Stupid Deal (http://www.musiciansfriend.com/stupid?src=3TP5DNC&&noPopup=true&src=3TP5DNC) of the day which has  XLS1000 for $149.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: RDavidson on 23 Jul 2015, 03:49 pm
From what I've read, the XLS1000 is the red headed stepchild of the XLS family. Not sure why exactly, but its performance lags compared the 1500 and above. The 1000 would be great for less critical applications, though.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: steve f on 23 Jul 2015, 10:47 pm
The XLS 1500 and higher use a different front end circuit from the XLS 1000. If you are going to use the amp for subs it's fine. For a full range amp, I'd spend a bit more for a 1500. I'm working from memory here, but the 1500 on up have about 6 DB less distortion too.

Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: rufusblues on 23 Jul 2015, 10:54 pm
Interesting to read more input about peoples' experiences with the First Watt amps. If the M2 is not a good 'fit', I will likely continue to work with the XLS2500. It's been a revelation of sorts since I purchased it, and that is why I invested in upgraded power cords, footers, etc. It has responded to all upgrades.

Gone are the days of many local hi fi shops that would give you the chance to check something out at home. Luckily there are places like Reno Hi Fi; not cheap, with shipping costs, etc., but at least it gives you the chance to hear something in ones' own system and listening environment. I see it as a continued learning experience, even if it doesn't work out.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: jk@home on 24 Jul 2015, 12:37 am
I think the cheapest on line price for the 1500 right now is a little over $200 from B&H Photo. I need to buy a third unit, as I am moving them into the HT system. Want to wait for the cheapest price...but not before they all sell out. :) Don't really need the new and improved 1502 version.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Russell Dawkins on 24 Jul 2015, 03:49 am
The XLS 1500 and higher use a different front end circuit from the XLS 1000. If you are going to use the amp for subs it's fine. For a full range amp, I'd spend a bit more for a 1500. I'm working from memory here, but the 1500 on up have about 6 DB less distortion too.
..and, strangely, the depth of the case goes from 7.7" to 10'7" between the XLS 1000/1500 and 2000/2500. I wonder what accounts for that extra depth.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: SlyFuu on 25 Jul 2015, 08:38 pm
Thanks for the suggestions. I ended up picking up the xls 1500, it should be here Wednesday. Excited to hear how it sounds.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: rufusblues on 29 Jul 2015, 08:37 pm
Just an update for those interested about my experiences with the First Watt M2 amp. Mark at Reno kinda warned me ahead of time it might not be what I was looking for, and in email messages with Nelson Pass, he also said it was not an amp for everyone, and I would find out what camp I fall into. Well, it is on its' way back to Nevada. It just didn't mesh with my system. If I were to use one word that best describes how it sounded, again...in my system....it would be muddy. I don't mind a relaxed sonic signature, but it felt like a lot of the music I am used to hearing in the tracks I know so well had gone missing. I learned that this amp is a favorite among some people using very high efficiency horn loudspeakers, and it may be that the details that were lacking in my system with that amp  become apparent in such a set up. Could be that an F6 would be more my cup of tea, but its' price makes it unobtainium for me at this time. (I guess that is why the heading for this thread is "Crown XLS For The Rest of Us..."  :duh:)

I do have an I FI tube buffer on order, since it comes so highly recommended by some of you. But even if for some reason that doesn't work out for me, I am quite happy for now with my Crown XLS2500 driving the Tekton Lore Reference speakers. It sounds quite amazing, actually.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Russell Dawkins on 29 Jul 2015, 09:12 pm
Quote from: rufusblues/
... I am quite happy for now with my Crown XLS2500 driving the Tekton Lore Reference speakers. It sounds quite amazing, actually.
I would be surprised if you could improve on that combination for anything less than multiples of the investment, especially if dynamics are of any importance to you.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: jk@home on 30 Jul 2015, 12:10 am
A few more places on line are selling new 1500s for a little over $200 now, so I imagine they are clearing out old stock for the 2nd gen units. Ordered a third amp from GC today for 209, with 12 months freeeeee financing.  :D
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: OzarkTom on 30 Jul 2015, 01:59 am
A 1500 in Texas for $125.

http://corpuschristi.craigslist.org/msg/5110424040.html

Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: rgilbert8000@hotmail.com on 30 Jul 2015, 11:28 pm
New to AC. Ozarktom I've read all post twice looking for info on your cryo man but only found where you ask to be PM'ed about it except I can't PM anyone because I'm new here. I read he does these Crown xls amps for $30 for you I think. I have 3 I would like done and want to use your resource if possible. Please PM me the info or email it to me ( email is in my profile).
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: OzarkTom on 31 Jul 2015, 02:50 am
New to AC. Ozarktom I've read all post twice looking for info on your cryo man but only found where you ask to be PM'ed about it except I can't PM anyone because I'm new here. I read he does these Crown xls amps for $30 for you I think. I have 3 I would like done and want to use your resource if possible. Please PM me the info or email it to me ( email is in my profile).

Check your email.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: rgilbert8000@hotmail.com on 31 Jul 2015, 03:37 am
Thanks Ozark. Do you know if the Silas audio mod are still being done by Folsom.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: OzarkTom on 31 Jul 2015, 03:41 am
Thanks Ozark. Do you know if the Silas audio mod are still being done by Folsom.

I don't know on that one.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: HiFiJeff on 14 Aug 2015, 07:56 pm
[quote
I do have an I FI tube buffer on order, since it comes so highly recommended by some of you. But even if for some reason that doesn't work out for me, I am quite happy for now with my Crown XLS2500 driving the Tekton Lore Reference speakers. It sounds quite amazing, actually.
[/quote]

It is reading quotes like this that really make me want the Crown/Lore Reference combo. Loved my M-Lores.  :D
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: gregfisk on 14 Aug 2015, 08:22 pm
Thanks Ozark. Do you know if the Silas audio mod are still being done by Folsom.

Folsom has been posting a lot recently on AC, you should be able to track him down pretty easy.

Greg
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Folsom on 14 Aug 2015, 11:00 pm
PM me.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: mgsboedmisodpc2 on 15 Aug 2015, 12:13 am

446.683592 watts = 26.5 db
Tekton Lore Reference 96db 1watt a 1 meter
= loud =  96db + 26.5 db = 122.5db = burnt voice coil
The Lore has a max of 250 watts why so much power HiFiJeff
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: rufusblues on 17 Aug 2015, 11:50 am
Just in case this is helpful to read about, I used the M Lore speakers for about a year. I loved those speakers and was able to make improvements to my system along the way, which the speakers responded to very readily. For such a small and affordable speaker, not requiring any stands, they are probably one of the best deals in high end audio. When I purchased the speakers, I asked Eric for amp recommendations and he advised getting a Crown XLS amp, and suggested getting 'the most power I could afford'. So I went with the XLS2500. I use an Oppo BDP105 going from the balanced outputs to the balanced inputs of the Crown. The amp appears to sound best with the higher voltage of the balanced outputs (4 volts vs 2 for single ended). I keep the gain levels on the Crown down as low as possible, and this helps smooth out the sound. But here is the clincher about this Crown amp: it is so transparent and neutral, it responds to any changes made upstream. I spent a lot on speaker wire and interconnects (first, the entry level MIT cables, which are excellent, and then those by Triode Wire Labs). But the really important component is the ac cable. The ones I prefer are also from Triode Wire Labs. Go with the best one you could afford (I know, it starts to out-cost the amp!!) but it takes the amp to a level you may have not thought possible. Some companies that sell digital amps already include specialized ac cables with them; I think there is something to how these sorts of amps respond to ac cables. This is my experience, sorry if it flies in the face of cost-effectiveness or ones' strongly held beliefs that such things as ac cables should make no difference. Actually, as far as cost-effectiveness is concerned, even with Triode Wire Labs top of the line ac cable, you are still talking about an amp that can compete with those in the $5,000 and up range.....according to at least some on the blog dedicated to the Crown XLS amps, so, I would argue that it's still cost effective. I think the amp is rather ugly and I have it hidden from view. The latest versions have the option of turning off the led readout, and also have input adjustments to allow it to work better with lower level inputs (like 2 volts). They are also black in color, which may appeal more to some. Otherwise, sound wise they are the same as the previous XLS model according to several technicians at Crown.

A couple months ago I purchased the Lore Reference because a good friend of mine was interested to buy my M Lores, and I was curious about the Reference model having read some very glowing reviews. The Reference speaker takes at least several days of breaking in (maybe due to a stiffer driver??). The speaker loses a bit of an edge and really opens up. I would say that the Lore Reference has a more even frequency response, more detail, somewhat more refined sound. I use a TBI subwoofer, so low end  with either speaker is not so much of an issue for me, but I think the low end on the Reference is more detailed as well. Actually, it is like a 'reference' version of the M Lore. That being said, after having the Lore Reference for a few months now, I still think the M Lore is a great speaker, fun to listen to, and if  for whatever reason one wanted to stick with that rather then move up to the Reference - that would be totally understandable. I hope this helpful.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: a.wayne on 23 Aug 2015, 08:39 pm
Agree with the ac power  cord ,  the xls does respond to power cords like nothing i have experienced before , what differences are you noticing between SE input vs XLR input ..?

The XLS 2000 is an enigma , when its good its really good , the bad ( hardness) is really bad , very noticable on pianos ,  musicals etc , Gain controls sound best in my setup at 2-3 o clock position and all software features off .


 Moved it to bass duties in the HT
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Folsom on 23 Aug 2015, 08:55 pm
It's power filter has a flaw that I was correcting. The powercord will affect this flaw, as will conditioners of different sorts.

It's not a hard thing to correct, if anyone considered themselves real handy with soldering iron. It's also not the only thing I did, but it's important.

Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: rufusblues on 24 Aug 2015, 11:16 pm
The balanced outputs from the Oppo produce 4 volts, vs 2 volts going single ended. I only need to turn the gains up to around the noon position, or even a click or two below. The more you need to turn those gain controls on the Crown up, the more top end "hashy" sort of brightness there is. Right now I am experiencing none of the negative things people are referring to. If some vocals are recorded 'hot', it shows up that way - but it's not awful by any means. With the Triode Wire Labs top of the line ac cable, I am really loving the Crown, in my system with my particular configuration. I believe I would have to spend thousands to do better, and, well, you know how that goes.....there will always be 'something'.  :roll:
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: S Clark on 24 Aug 2015, 11:22 pm
even with Triode Wire Labs top of the line ac cable, you are still talking about an amp that can compete with those in the $5,000 and up range.....

I tried the Crown with TWL cables and Wywires cables.  My experience was that does not compete with higher priced amps.  It is what it is.  A cheap amp with good bang for the buck. 
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: gregfisk on 24 Aug 2015, 11:32 pm
I tried the Crown with TWL cables and Wywires cables.  My experience was that does not compete with higher priced amps.  It is what it is.  A cheap amp with good bang for the buck.

I purchased a crown XLS1500 for a friend of mine to run 10 pair of inwall and outdoor speakers at his cabin. Since I they were $209.00 I bought one too.

While it is a great amp for the money my Butler Audio 2250 at $3200.00 new is much better
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: roscoeiii on 24 Aug 2015, 11:36 pm
I purchased a crown XLS1500 for a friend of mine to run 10 pair of inwall and outdoor speakers at his cabin. Since I they were $209.00 I bought one too.

While it is a great amp for the money my Butler Audio 2250 at $3200.00 new is much better

Yes, those Butler amps are great. I'd like to compare the Butler (sold mine a few years back) to the XLS on my power hungry SP Techs.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: roscoeiii on 24 Aug 2015, 11:38 pm
I purchased a crown XLS1500 for a friend of mine to run 10 pair of inwall and outdoor speakers at his cabin. Since I they were $209.00 I bought one too.

While it is a great amp for the money my Butler Audio 2250 at $3200.00 new is much better

And remind us what you are driving with these amps...
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: gregfisk on 24 Aug 2015, 11:56 pm
And remind us what you are driving with these amps...

I'm driving the top end of Super Vs which are 97db efficient. I don't think I'm putting any kind of load on either one of the amps. My issue with the crown amp being a giant killer is the edginess that it has and lack of sound stage. It sounds pretty good if I sit and listen long enough as I get used to it. But doing a swap back and forth it is very obvious to me anyway that the upper midrange and highs are shrill and don't have the rich texture and body of the Butler.

In a different system they may sound different, I haven't tried. My friend really likes his but like I said he's using it for whole house audio and isn't into audio like most of us here.

roscoeiii, I wanted to add one more thing. I don't think the Butler can deliver the power that the crown can, I remember now I did try them on my pair of Aerial 7Bs I own and the crown seemed like it handled them better but not night and day.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: OzarkTom on 24 Aug 2015, 11:57 pm
Has anyone else here heard the XLS cryo'd?
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: roscoeiii on 25 Aug 2015, 01:09 am
Has anyone else here heard the XLS cryo'd?

Keep meaning to get around to having my 2 XLS and my iTube cryo'd. But think I'lll replace the binding posts first. decisions, decisions...
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: DaveC113 on 25 Aug 2015, 01:20 am
The Pomonas just bolt in, 10 min job... well worth it too. You can replace the "wires" going to the posts if you're feeling adventurous, that will require soldering.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: roscoeiii on 25 Aug 2015, 01:24 am
Yeah, need to look back in this thread and figure out the best order to proceed for XLS upgrades.

But it is a damn long thread at this point...
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: OzarkTom on 25 Aug 2015, 01:41 am
Make sure you have the binding posts in before you get the cryo.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: gregfisk on 25 Aug 2015, 02:05 am
Keep meaning to get around to having my 2 XLS and my iTube cryo'd. But think I'lll replace the binding posts first. decisions, decisions...

roscoeiii, what does the ifi tube buffer do compared to not having it in the system with your Crown? I have a different tube buffer but a friend is using it right now.

I do run a Joule Electra MKII-SE in front of my amps and it does a wonderful job of adding that tube goodness I love so much.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: jk@home on 25 Aug 2015, 06:27 pm
I've tried 4 different tube buffers over the years in my system (MF X10D, Yaquin, Dodds, and iTube). The iTube is the only one I felt actually added to the resolution of the system, not detracting from it.

Also, if you get one, experiment with the 3d effect. It is not the most accurate playback, but in many cases, the best sounding one, if your system allows it to shine. Makes my monopole speakers sound like dipoles, but without the downside.

BTW, I've moved my Crowns to the HT system, now driving various Paradigm Studio V-3s (mains, center, surround etc.). Better match than the KEFs in the 2 channel system. So they are there to stay.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: DaveC113 on 25 Aug 2015, 06:55 pm
I just reconditioned a pair of Dahlquist speakers (DQ12), mostly because I got them nearly free, but also to check out a well regarded design.

The combination of the Dahlquists + the Crown amp is ridiculously good for something one could acquire in the $600-$700 range. And the re-foamed woofers and xo caps haven't even broke in yet... I'm a little shocked but have read many Dahlquist owners can't find anything better without spending tons of cash and the speakers like as much power as they can get. The speakers are very basic and overall a budget cabinet design, but it seems well thought out and maximizes bang for the buck.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: S Clark on 25 Aug 2015, 07:23 pm
Yes, those Butler amps are great. I'd like to compare the Butler (sold mine a few years back) to the XLS on my power hungry SP Techs.
Roscoeii, what about updating your System profile.  It still shows the Butler as the amp for your main system.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: roscoeiii on 25 Aug 2015, 08:23 pm
Roscoeii, what about updating your System profile.  It still shows the Butler as the amp for your main system.

Oh my,  I will get that updated...
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: roscoeiii on 25 Aug 2015, 08:28 pm
I've tried 4 different tube buffers over the years in my system (MF X10D, Yaquin, Dodds, and iTube). The iTube is the only one I felt actually added to the resolution of the system, not detracting from it.

Also, if you get one, experiment with the 3d effect. It is not the most accurate playback, but in many cases, the best sounding one, if your system allows it to shine. Makes my mono system sound like a dipole one, but without the downside.


Well put. I also like the iTube more than the other tube buffer I tried years ago in a very different system. I'll also say that  the iTube helped put a little more body on the music.  My system felt a bit too lean without it.  The +6db gain also helped in my system since the XLS seems to like a hotter signal,  and it allows me to turn down the XLS gain a bit to the range that sounds best to me: 1 o'clock.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: OzarkTom on 25 Aug 2015, 11:40 pm
I just reconditioned a pair of Dahlquist speakers (DQ12), mostly because I got them nearly free, but also to check out a well regarded design.

I have never heard the DQ-12's, but I was a huge fan of the DQ-10's. Here is a pair of DQ-12's on Ebay for $255 plus $90 for shipping. You can also make a best offer. This makes the Crown-DQ12"s for about $500. What a deal. :thumb:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Dahlquist-DQ-12-SPEAKER-/231644820361?hash=item35ef1b7389
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: jk@home on 25 Aug 2015, 11:43 pm
Well put. I also like the iTube more than the other tube buffer I tried years ago in a very different system. I'll also say that  the iTube helped put a little more body on the music.  My system felt a bit too lean without it.  The +6db gain also helped in my system since the XLS seems to like a hotter signal,  and it allows me to turn down the XLS gain a bit to the range that sounds best to me: 1 o'clock.

Mine ended up between the DAC and preamp (which is already high gain). Added short silver interconnects, saved me the urge to upgrade to a tubed DAC.

(http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/640x480q90/673/ljIe0H.jpg)
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: a.wayne on 29 Aug 2015, 12:11 am
I tried the Crown with TWL cables and Wywires cables.  My experience was that does not compete with higher priced amps.  It is what it is.  A cheap amp with good bang for the buck.


Yep ...
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: a.wayne on 29 Aug 2015, 12:16 am
The Pomonas just bolt in, 10 min job... well worth it too. You can replace the "wires" going to the posts if you're feeling adventurous, that will require soldering.

Pomonas ..?  What audible change was experienced after changing ...?



Regards
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Tomy2Tone on 29 Aug 2015, 12:19 am
Pomonas ..?  What audible change was experienced after changing ...?



Regards

From what I remember after doing it, clarity was improved while being a little smoother. For $40 it was an easy install with relatively nice improvements. Not huge but noticeable.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: a.wayne on 29 Aug 2015, 12:32 am
Tks ..... Any thoughts on  Nuetrik  over using the Pomonas ...?
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: jk@home on 1 Sep 2015, 04:18 pm
Only negative I have had with the Pomonas is a couple of them have worked slightly loose from the securing nut in the back, causing them to start spinning. I was thinking about adding second back nuts on to the originals, not sure it that will really help. Maybe a better lock washer is needed. Afraid to torque them down too much, as not to strip or break off the copper posts.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: SteveFord on 8 Sep 2015, 12:59 am
How about a drop of Purple Loctite?
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: ccklone on 8 Sep 2015, 02:45 am
Hey Now,

Got a good deal over the Labor Day weekend at Guitar Center, an XLS-1500 for 190 bucks. Planning to use it with a pair of bucket subs I just finished up. Looking forward to adding some oomph to my Omega Super 3s.

--
Finest kind,
Chris
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: jk@home on 8 Sep 2015, 05:18 pm
How about a drop of Purple Loctite?

I could try that. I don't think the nuts are actually backing out, but that the post assembly is just slightly slipping because it is not tight enough (and if tightened more, could snap the copper post section). Anyway it's not really a biggie cause it appears to be making enough contact for the speakers to work :) Plus I keep the wires tied together so they won't move around. It is at least as tight as some banana connections I have used in the past, which can be real easy to twist and slip around.

(http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/640x480q90/538/t6M4eO.jpg)
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Odal3 on 8 Sep 2015, 07:36 pm
That's a lot of power!  :thumb: Curious what the rest of the system looks like.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: jk@home on 9 Sep 2015, 12:28 am
Nothing fancy, just the basic HT in the Living room setup. I use an Oppo 103 (for DVD / BRs) and a Mocha DD decoder (for cable decoding) that goes into an old Sony TAP9000es analog preamp. When I added the Crowns, also added a row of Jensen ISOmax output transformers to convert from the Sony's unbalanced signals to balanced. Already owned two stereo ISOmax units, so just had to pony up for a single channel one, for the center channel. Before was using cables that were RCA on one end and XLR on the other, and was constantly battling hum. The system is dead quiet now.

Was using a stack of Mackies proamps (like the one under the Crowns) for all the speakers. Even in a closet, the fans roared. So the Crowns made a big difference in the overall noise level of the system.

The speakers are older Paradigm Studio V3s, the center channel is hidden in the TV cabinet when not in use, the side surrounds are hanging off the wall. No subwoofer as of right now, as the one that was being used blew, and I have another dedicated HT room that the system will go into later, then will install IB subs. So I run the Studio 60s full range, they seem to be putting out a touch more bass now driven by the Crowns.

We do love our fairly new (last year's model) Samsung 65" curved TV. Awesome set.

(http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/640x480q90/631/0dac06.jpg)
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Odal3 on 9 Sep 2015, 01:23 am
Nice set-up. Thanks for sharing!
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: neep on 13 Oct 2015, 03:56 am
Hi guys,

Just purchased a couple of the XLS1500's for my HT rig. I'm going directly to the amps from my Oppo 103. I'm wondering where I should set the gain on the amps specific to my setup to get the best performance from them.

Thanks!
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: roscoeiii on 13 Oct 2015, 04:05 am
Hi guys,

Just purchased a couple of the XLS1500's for my HT rig. I'm going directly to the amps from my Oppo 103. I'm wondering where I should set the gain on the amps specific to my setup to get the best performance from them.

Thanks!

Just trust your ears!  I think I recall folks preferring the XLR out on the Oppo.   But again,  try both and trust your ears. In my system, I am at 1 o'clock on the XLS gain.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: neep on 13 Oct 2015, 04:09 am
Just trust your ears!  I think I recall folks preferring the XLR out on the Oppo.   But again,  try both and trust your ears. In my system, I am at 1 o'clock on the XLS gain.

Haha, will do. I have the amps turned up to 100% for HT and it sounds fine. I usually have the Oppo's volume at 75% for movies. When I'm listening to music, the Oppo usually sits around 25%-50%. Not sure why I have to crank the movies up more on the Oppo.

There is definitely something missing when doing the two channel thing. I'll try turning down the gain on the amps tonight.

Any feedback is appreciated and thanks roscoe.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: neep on 13 Oct 2015, 04:10 am
Whoops. Didn't mean to double post.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: roscoeiii on 13 Oct 2015, 04:13 am
Haha, will do. I have the amps turned up to 100% for HT and it sounds fine. I usually have the Oppo's volume at 75% for movies. When I'm listening to music, the Oppo usually sits around 25%-50%. Not sure why I have to crank the movies up more on the Oppo.

There is definitely something missing when doing the two channel thing. I'll try turning down the gain on the amps tonight.

Any feedback is appreciated and thanks roscoe.

I did find that lower than 100% gain was preferable in the setups I have tried. But will depend on where the Oppo is best and on your speakers.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: neep on 13 Oct 2015, 06:45 am
I did find that lower than 100% gain was preferable in the setups I have tried. But will depend on where the Oppo is best and on your speakers.

Thanks again rocoe!

I just compared the XLS1500 to my Pass Aleph 30 (Class A). Very interesting test. Wish I could say the Aleph 30 smoked it but it that wasn't the case. I level matched the amps, have a treated room, and am listening to the very flat Revel M20's. I have a Chord Hugo running DAC and preamp duties. I think I might prefer the Crown :o

With the gain at 100% on the amps, I might have heard things get a little edgy. But at 2 o'clock, the Crown was more transparent and just as textured as the Aleph 30. No harshness or hardness.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: mcgsxr on 13 Oct 2015, 12:01 pm
I run my gain at 1:30-2:00 via XLR inputs and into my Maggie 1.6's.

I know that there are better amps out there, but man for the $, this is an excellent piece.

For an audio scrounger like me, it represents tremendous value!
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: DaveC113 on 13 Oct 2015, 03:29 pm
I'm currently powering Pioneer S-1EX speakers with the Crown XLS 1500 with excellent results. They are 3-way 89 dB efficient speakers, the impedance is 6 ohm nominal but drops a bit in the mid bass, probably not a great combo with a high output impedance tube amp but the Crown is doing great.

I have an Odyssey Stratos I am planning on using but I need to get my zero-gain preamp done first as the Stratos has too much gain to use with my Aikido preamp (20 dB).

Comparison coming in a few weeks or so.  :green:   And the Pioneers are amazing, very close to perfection.

(http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l318/davec113/s1ex_zpslivzbt9m.jpg) (http://s99.photobucket.com/user/davec113/media/s1ex_zpslivzbt9m.jpg.html)
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: roscoeiii on 13 Oct 2015, 06:45 pm
Those look like great speakers. CONGRATS.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Jazzaudio on 26 Oct 2015, 03:16 am
I received a brand new Cullen Crossover power cable this week, and initially placed it on the isolation transformer that plugs into the wall.  I figured this would speed up the cable's settling process since everything, to include the TV, is plugged into the Iso (and runs in standby mode when not in use).  I heard a very slight reduction of the sound stage, but nothing drastic...it was more of instruments and voices sounding closer together.  Out of curiosity, and after a day of use (20-24 hours or so), I placed the new cable on my Jolida tube output CDP and pretty much heard about the same thing: everything still clear and "chimey," just a little closed in.  After another 6 hours of music time (give or take a half hour) I placed the cable on the XLS-1500.  Not only did the sound stage drastically collapse to the inner edges of the speakers,  the sound became distinctively hazy as if someone was standing in front of both speakers.  In addition, the volume was reduced: not a full turn lower on the gain knobs, but noticeable.   I spent the next hour going through  a handful of Modern Jazz Quartet cd's, and Milt Jackson's xylophone highlighted what I was hearing.  An immediate swap of the new cable from the XLS-1500 to the CDP: back to normal (with the slight bunching of instruments and/or voices.)  It made me seriously think about getting the XLS power supply mod.

On a side note, MJQ with the Swingle Singers: out of bounds, shut the front door!!!!
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Wind Chaser on 26 Oct 2015, 05:12 am
I'm currently powering Pioneer S-1EX speakers with the Crown XLS 1500...

I have an Odyssey Stratos...

Comparison coming in a few weeks or so.  :green:

How's that comparison coming?

Quote
And the Pioneers are amazing, very close to perfection.

I thought you were a full range single driver kind of guy; can you elaborate more on the above?
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Folsom on 26 Oct 2015, 05:49 am
I received a brand new Cullen Crossover power cable this week, and initially placed it on the isolation transformer that plugs into the wall.  I figured this would speed up the cable's settling process since everything, to include the TV, is plugged into the Iso (and runs in standby mode when not in use).  I heard a very slight reduction of the sound stage, but nothing drastic...it was more of instruments and voices sounding closer together.  Out of curiosity, and after a day of use (20-24 hours or so), I placed the new cable on my Jolida tube output CDP and pretty much heard about the same thing: everything still clear and "chimey," just a little closed in.  After another 6 hours of music time (give or take a half hour) I placed the cable on the XLS-1500.  Not only did the sound stage drastically collapse to the inner edges of the speakers,  the sound became distinctively hazy as if someone was standing in front of both speakers.  In addition, the volume was reduced: not a full turn lower on the gain knobs, but noticeable.   I spent the next hour going through  a handful of Modern Jazz Quartet cd's, and Milt Jackson's xylophone highlighted what I was hearing.  An immediate swap of the new cable from the XLS-1500 to the CDP: back to normal (with the slight bunching of instruments and/or voices.)  It made me seriously think about getting the XLS power supply mod.

On a side note, MJQ with the Swingle Singers: out of bounds, shut the front door!!!!

It's possible the dampening would help, in the XLS power supply filter.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: a.wayne on 26 Oct 2015, 12:04 pm
Those look like great speakers. CONGRATS.
They won't fit in the GTI for sure ... :)
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: a.wayne on 26 Oct 2015, 12:08 pm
  I spent the next hour going through  a handful of Modern Jazz Quartet cd's, and Milt Jackson's xylophone highlighted what I was hearing.  An immediate swap of the new cable from the XLS-1500 to the CDP: back to normal (with the slight bunching of instruments and/or voices.)  It made me seriously think about getting the XLS power supply mod.




What is the power supply Mod ...?
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: mcgsxr on 26 Oct 2015, 12:10 pm
I am happy with my XLS 1500 running an older Bolder Cable Nitro PC.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: DaveC113 on 26 Oct 2015, 01:51 pm
How's that comparison coming?

I thought you were a full range single driver kind of guy; can you elaborate more on the above?

I went to a mountain bike festival in Moab this weekend instead of working on my zero-gain tube buffer preamp so the comparison is a ways down the road. Couple more weeks probably... the Stratos has, imo, too much gain so my current tube preamp doesn't really work out... I need zero gain, not + 20 dB.

I still like single drivers, but the Pioneers are great too. Concentric drivers help a lot with cohesiveness plus the Pioneers are almost full range and make a good reference. They are basically 3rd tier down from TAD REf 1s and very close in sound to the TAD Evolution towers, sharing the same concentric drivers. For the money ($10k new) they are probably the best value that's ever been offered in HiFi audio but because they are Pioneer nobody bought them and they were discontinued after only a few years. They rarely come up for sale so I had to jump on the chance to buy a pair when I could. They have actually been appreciating on the used market because of their scarcity and people maybe realizing what they are. There are only a handful of speakers I think are better regardless of price. That said they are maybe too perfect, I think the additional distortion provided by paper coned drivers makes some acoustic instruments sound more realistic, but for a speaker to serve as a reference they are very good and will be an asset to my business.

Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Folsom on 26 Oct 2015, 02:19 pm

What is the power supply Mod ...?

He's probably referring to what I did on several forum members XLS's.

-dampen the CMC's
-remove line Y caps (neutrals remain)
-replace the diode bridge in PFC section (with an extremely nice bridge) and then I decouple it as well
-bypass cheap reset switch

-The binding post swap is an option too.*

Sorry, this isn't meant to be advertising, just information on what already has happened.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: a.wayne on 26 Oct 2015, 03:14 pm
Is it as good as an NC400 when done ... ?
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Folsom on 26 Oct 2015, 04:39 pm
Is it as good as an NC400 when done ... ?

I don't know, I didn't have an NC400 around at the time.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: a.wayne on 26 Oct 2015, 08:47 pm
Tks, the question was necessary to get an idea how competitive the  XLS is compared to other class-D amplifiers in the 1K price range, only to see if they are worth modifying or moving on.



Regards..
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Folsom on 26 Oct 2015, 09:23 pm
Tomy2Tone might be able to tell you.

It depends on the price of the XLS. If you get one for $125-200, you've got under $400 in it with modifications. You could even have it dunked for cryo, and still make it out fairly cheap for the amount of power.

Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: mcgsxr on 26 Oct 2015, 10:14 pm
I think it is pretty system and user dependent - the question of how good these amps are.

I am keeping mine, that is for sure.  It has been cryo'd and has had the binding posts replaced.

I used to use other amp styles.   I have run digital amps from Panasonic, JVC, Teac (all those are from around 10 years ago), I have run Class A amps from Magnavox and Sugden, and I have run A/B amps from B&K, Sugden, Yamaha and Pioneer.

I find this XLS 1500 works very well with my Nuforce preamp, and my Magneplanar 1.6's, and the MMG's I had before the 1.6's.

There are better amps, no doubt.  But i am not buying any of them for a while.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: a.wayne on 26 Oct 2015, 10:21 pm
What changes with the cryo and binding post, have to agree the binding post sucks on them in stock form ...
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: mcgsxr on 27 Oct 2015, 11:22 am
I picked up the amp with the mods already done. 

If you go back far enough in this thread you can read about what others thought about this amp.  There are members here who heard it. 
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: JohnR on 27 Oct 2015, 01:09 pm
Speaking of binding posts, does the plastic thing in the middle come out? I was trying to insert banana plugs and can't.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Quiet Earth on 27 Oct 2015, 02:08 pm
Why don't you guys use the Speakon connectors?
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: DaveC113 on 27 Oct 2015, 02:09 pm
Speaking of binding posts, does the plastic thing in the middle come out? I was trying to insert banana plugs and can't.

I got mine used, but I think many amps come with little plastic caps that need to be removed by the user as a result of being able to insert a schuko plug in them. If you take a drywall screw and screw in it hand-tight the caps should pull right out.

Why don't you guys use the Speakon connectors?

I don't want to modify any of my own speaker cables just for this amp. I prefer copper spades.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: roscoeiii on 27 Oct 2015, 02:23 pm
Why don't you guys use the Speakon connectors?

Are there advantages to them?
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: a.wayne on 27 Oct 2015, 02:27 pm
I got mine used, but I think many amps come with little plastic caps that need to be removed by the user as a result of being able to insert a schuko plug in them. If you take a drywall screw and screw in it hand-tight the caps should pull right out.

I don't want to modify any of my own speaker cables just for this amp. I prefer copper spades.

Prefer raw wire myself ..:)

Are there advantages to them?

Yes, better than the binding post ....
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: JohnR on 27 Oct 2015, 02:27 pm
Why don't you guys use the Speakon connectors?
Speakons are brilliant. I don't know why anybody would use anything else.

Er, that is, unless you haven't gotten around to making your Speakon cables yet.  :peek:

PS Thanks Dave for the tip, I will try that.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: DaveC113 on 27 Oct 2015, 02:33 pm
If speakons were standard equipment in most amps I'd use them but outside of the pro sound market they are unheard of. The Pomona copper posts aren't too expensive, and are probably a bit better than speakons as far as materials go anyways.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: JohnR on 27 Oct 2015, 02:45 pm
outside of the pro sound market they are unheard of.

That's not quite true... but maybe the solution is to "hear" people about them? ;) Every time I use I use Speakons (or XLRs, for that matter), I think to myself "now this is how it should be done"... I'm so tired of wrestling with RCAs that won't come off (or won't stay on), panel-mount sockets that unscrew themselves, binding posts that bind, and/or need an impact driver to tighten (OK I'm exaggerating but there are manufacturers that recommend using spanners...)... it's just nuts. IMHO :-P

Anyway, back on topic! I have a pair of XLS1500 and used them to good effect at a recent gathering where I set up an "impromptu" active loudspeaker. I used one for the sub and one for the woofers. Comments were positive.

Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: a.wayne on 27 Oct 2015, 02:59 pm
If speakons were standard equipment in most amps I'd use them but outside of the pro sound market they are unheard of. The Pomona copper posts aren't too expensive, and are probably a bit better than speakons as far as materials go anyways.

A lot of SOTA speaker manufacturers use speakon connectors ...
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: DaveC113 on 27 Oct 2015, 03:01 pm
Every time I use I use Speakons (or XLRs, for that matter), I think to myself "now this is how it should be done"... I'm so tired of wrestling with RCAs that won't come off (or won't stay on), panel-mount sockets that unscrew themselves, binding posts that bind, and/or need an impact driver to tighten (OK I'm exaggerating but there are manufacturers that recommend using spanners...)... it's just nuts. IMHO :-P

Anyway, back on topic! I have a pair of XLS1500 and used them to good effect at a recent gathering where I set up an "impromptu" active loudspeaker. I used one for the sub and one for the woofers. Comments were positive.


I agree, RCAs and binding posts are archaic, and good ones cost too much money. It would be nice if everyone would agree on up-to-date standards for both connections and electrical.

I'm about to replace the plate amp on my sub with an XLS, the plate amp is old and the controls seem to be wearing out/not working properly and the speaker-level inputs don't work at all anymore. I think the XLS will be an improvement, we will see.... Some of the other Crown amps have a more flexible DSP built-in, but for sub use the 24 dB slope should work out fine.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: JohnR on 27 Oct 2015, 03:07 pm
I haven't used the crossover in the Crown, but have never had a problem with 24dB/octave. I think the newer model of the XLS has the more flexible DSP although I forget what it is exactly.

I'm still astounded at how cheaply you guys can get these for. I'd buy at least a couple more at your current price... !
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Odal3 on 27 Oct 2015, 03:23 pm
So what's the going price in your area?
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: JohnR on 27 Oct 2015, 03:29 pm
So what's the going price in your area?

About USD500. I got my pair about USD100 each off that.

I'm aware that I can get them shipped from Amazon, but they are set for 120V and having been through the whole voltage conversion thing before, I would prefer not to.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: gregfisk on 27 Oct 2015, 03:44 pm
Speaking of binding posts, does the plastic thing in the middle come out? I was trying to insert banana plugs and can't.

I slid my banana plugs in from the side and put electrical tape behind them so they don't touch the casing, maybe yours are larger than mine?
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: JohnR on 27 Oct 2015, 04:10 pm
I slid my banana plugs in from the side

Um...  :lol:  I don't see how to do that! The ones I have are just all plastic, there's no way to get any electrical contact other than inserting a bare wire from the top. That I can figure.... I will try Dave's screw trick tomorrow.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: gregfisk on 27 Oct 2015, 05:39 pm
Um...  :lol:  I don't see how to do that! The ones I have are just all plastic, there's no way to get any electrical contact other than inserting a bare wire from the top. That I can figure.... I will try Dave's screw trick tomorrow.

I guess that did sound a bit funny reading it again. Yes, I mean the side of the binding posts and yes the holes run top to bottom. I put electrical tape just above the binding post on the back of the amp and slid the banana plug in from the top side of the binding post and tightened the post down. It works fine but looks a bit funny because the binding post sticks up past the top of the amp.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: DaveC113 on 27 Oct 2015, 05:47 pm
I just checked my 2nd XLS amp and the plastic plugs do just pull right out using a screw, then you can use the bananas the conventional way.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: gregfisk on 27 Oct 2015, 06:15 pm
I just checked my 2nd XLS amp and the plastic plugs do just pull right out using a screw, then you can use the bananas the conventional way.

This is great Dave, I had no idea you could do this or that it was even an option. I wondered why the posts didn't except banana plug :scratch:
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: jk@home on 27 Oct 2015, 06:19 pm
If I'm not mistaken, they put the plastic plugs into the binding posts to meet EU electrical safety regulations. They are real easy to remove.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: a.wayne on 27 Oct 2015, 06:21 pm
Damn
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: maxima95 on 27 Oct 2015, 06:27 pm

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1db0B0Jl6z0
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: DaveC113 on 27 Oct 2015, 06:44 pm
If I'm not mistaken, they put the plastic plugs into the binding posts to meet EU electrical safety regulations. They are real easy to remove.

Yes, schuko plugs fit into binding posts unfortunately. Not sure why someone would put one in an amplifier but apparently it has been done...  :icon_lol:

Drywall/decking screws work well for removing the plugs, they only need to be hand tight to have enough grip to pull them out.

The Pomona posts do make a nice improvement though, probably even better if you remove the stock "wiring" and replace with actual copper wire. I will do so one of these days, along with better RCA jacks.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: jk@home on 27 Oct 2015, 06:52 pm
Yeah I remember someone here did the wire upgrade on an older Crown. But just doing the Pomona mod is easily reversible, and these things have what... a 3 year warranty?  So I guess we need to wait that long before going the full monty.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: macrojack on 28 Oct 2015, 10:53 am
Why does this always happen? Some product like these Crown amps gains everyone's attention due to the incredible price/performance ratio it offers, resulting in a long and enthusiastic thread. Then the tweaks begin to emerge and the ratio begins to shift. Every new tweak brings a poorer cost to improvement ratio leading to an eventual adjusted "value" that would never have excited anyone in the first place. Apparently this is the behavior that causes our self-deprecatory comments about audiophile insanity.

I think we do the same thing with mods. We buy some giant killer OPPO product or a Mac Mini and then triple or quadruple our investment in pursuit of a 10% improvement in performance, voiding our warranties and compromising our chances of recovering our investment at sale time.

Seems insane to me. Either you are after performance or value. When you attempt to increase both simultaneously, more often than not you wind up with more of one at the expense of the other.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: mcgsxr on 28 Oct 2015, 11:32 am
Perhaps it is the affliction of audio geeks the world over to never be satisfied.  Perhaps it is because we all chase better, and know that it often costs more.

For me, I waited years to pick up on this amp.  I read about it, watched threads, and as the flavor of the month faded I pounced on one.  It already had some lights mods (max $60 or so) and on the used market represented excellent value.

Now with it up and running in my environment, I am happy I spent what I did.

I am still using a stock (!) Squeezebox Touch at present as my transport.  I once owned a full monty Bolder SB3 with power supply etc.   I am VERY guilty of exploring mods to gear.  I find it interesting and rewarding. 

I go in and out of this hobby with my heart and my wallet in lock step.  Its the music that never gets sold it seems!
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: jk@home on 28 Oct 2015, 12:42 pm
In my case, the binding post mod allowed me to use spade connectors, which I feel are the most solid connection out there. Short of going bare, which can be a mess with stranded wire. The stock posts don't allow spades.

Now a few years ago, I modded the heck out of a pair of Maggie MMGs, cause (as the Geico commercial says) "It's what you do".  :D In the end, they got replaced anyway. I have absolutely no desire to mod my current speakers. I think it really does effect resale, in a negative way.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: brother love on 28 Oct 2015, 01:28 pm
I think it's all relative. If you buy a amp like this one when it went new for $300, & it sounds really good for the money, but comes up short in a few areas. So you spend $100- $200 to mod the amp to improve its drawbacks. Now you have $400- $500 invested & the question becomes just like before... how does it compare to similarly priced amplifiers?

If you don't want void the warranty, that is certainly understandable.  If you buy a used version where warranty is not transferable, then that becomes a non-issue. I do agree that resale value can be adversely affected by mods. To each their own.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: DaveC113 on 28 Oct 2015, 02:34 pm
macro, I'd agree if you're talking about $400+ WBT silver posts but the Pomonas are about $40. The amps are being closed out at under 50% of retail, but adding $40 binding posts to an ~$800 retail amp doesn't seem out of proportion to me at all and you're still getting a good value. OTOH, you can buy Speakons instead of Pomonas for even less $ and solve the connector issue that way. But the fact is the stock binding posts do suck and add grain to the sound.


 
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Quiet Earth on 28 Oct 2015, 02:54 pm
I don't think the crown ever retailed for $800. Even the QSC GX7 retailed for less than that.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: DaveC113 on 28 Oct 2015, 03:11 pm
I don't think the crown ever retailed for $800. Even the QSC GX7 retailed for less than that.

Not so, the XLS 2500 retailed for $1099 and the XLS 2000 for $899, 1500 for a couple hundred less, etc...
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Quiet Earth on 28 Oct 2015, 03:19 pm
Huh.... :scratch:  For some reason I always thought the Crown1500 was way cheaper than the big QSC.  I guess not.

Still, I like macrojack's post about keeping your perspective when entering the world of modifications. Something to consider anyway.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: DaveC113 on 28 Oct 2015, 03:34 pm
Huh.... :scratch:  For some reason I always thought the Crown1500 was way cheaper than the big QSC.  I guess not.

Still, I like macrojack's post about keeping your perspective when entering the world of modifications. Something to consider anyway.

Well, people spend big money on cables and don't bother upgrading in/out jacks or internal wire, which makes the same kind of difference upgrading cables makes, it just takes more effort. If you truly want your system to be as good as possible that means using the best parts possible form source to drivers. It should be done in a sensible way but I don't think leaving poor quality connectors or wire in your system is a good idea. I think putting $40 Pomona binding posts on an XLS amp improves the value for the money.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Odal3 on 28 Oct 2015, 03:49 pm
Sites like camelcamelcamel.com are good places to check price history over time since amazon pricing is a good measure of current values. Didn't realize that the xls 1500 now can be had new for just under $200. http://camelcamelcamel.com/Crown-DriveCore-XLS1500-Power-Amplifier/product/B003HZV2JS?context=browse
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Oktyabr on 29 Oct 2015, 01:43 am
Fascinating thread!  A buddy of mine recommended I give a pro amp with DSP a try so I started looking and stumbled across this thread (and a few others).  Yesterday UPS delivered a pair of XLS 1500 which I promptly hooked up before going to bed. 

I'm posting in this thread (after having read most of the last 77 pages, if not all of them) looking for a bit of advice and/or a consensus:

I run an older, tried but true, Yamaha AV receiver.  The manual says the preamp outputs are 1V.  I hooked up the Crowns with RCA jacks and plugged in the calibration mic included with my receiver.  To my surprise, going back and looking at the levels the Yamaha recommended, the front speakers the crowns are driving are only slightly above the normal, middle point of their respective gain setting lines.  I kind of expected it to push the preamp levels significantly higher than the center and surrounds that the receiver handles itself, but they were within reason with considerable room left for adjustment.  However I noticed on a quick run with some two channel music at higher volumes (risking the wrath of my wife for interrupting her competitive cooking shows ;) ) that while the Crowns sound nice so far that they do not drive my speakers near as loud as the setup they are speculatively going to replace.  Further the only signal indicator light that ever lights up is the very bottom one...  It never even dips into -20db or -10db, much less clipping, even though one channel on each amp is just a click or two away from being maxed out, even with the receiver indicating a "-0 DB" volume level.

Does just the signal light flickering suggest lost head room?

In that case, I realize they really need more gain from the preamp stage.  This is where a consensus would be nice to have...  I know some recommend an Art CleanBox Pro, others seem to like the Rolls equivalent, and I'm sure there are other units out there that I might consider as well.  Of course the far end of that range of solutions would be a preamp capable of driving the crowns to pro levels but that probably doesn't fit my constraints, which are:  Any preamp, gain converter, or other solution must cost less than the price difference between the 1500s, which I can still return, and the newer 1502 version which I realize has a gain selection switch of some sort (I still have to read a review on the 1502).  I paid $199 each from Amazon and it seems the 1502 is running right around $350 so any solution can't exceed the difference of $300 (for two of them), or I'd just return the 1500 and upgrade to the 1502.  Second constraint is that any such solution should not introduce any further "hiss" to what comes out of my speakers.  The Crowns are VERY quiet but if I listen carefully, from a foot or two away, I can still hear it.  This is acceptable.  Anything much more noisy and I'd probably prefer to roll back to my (noisy) miniDSP 2x4 rev.A and the consumer level amps I was running previously.

ART?  Rolls?  Something else?  A burning deal on a preamp somewhere?


For those who would like more of the back story my fronts are Audio Nirvana Super 8" Ferrite full rangers, which are, according to the manufacturer, "at least 98 db efficiency in any of our cabinets".  I used to drive these to very pleasant levels with a very low power T-amp in manufacturer designed cabinets and then after a few other experiments they ended up in open baffles above a pair of Goldwood GW-1858 18" pro drivers inside "H Frame" open baffles designed by Martin J. King.  The 18" are spec'd to be 94.3 dB 2.83V/1m, revealing a sensitivity mismatch between my Super 8's and themselves, which is why gain controls on an amplifier has it's appeal to me.   This two way project does not utilize any other cross over method, so something like the Crown XLS was very interesting to me.  I currently run the Crowns in "Input Y XOVER" mode, one amp per channel, crossed over at 125 Hz (currently).  The miniDSP was much more flexible as far as setting crossover filters (even biquads) but as I said, it was pretty noisy...  it sounded good when music was playing but any silence was slowly driving me crazy with the hiss it provided.   :(

Suggestions?

Thanks in advance!
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: roscoeiii on 29 Oct 2015, 02:26 am
May not be in the price range you are looking for, but if gain is an issue a great option would be an iTube, used as a buffer with the +6 dB gain setting. A great pairing with the XLS as I and others have found. And Music Direct sells these if you don't have a local dealer who can offer an audition. If it doesn't work for you,  then they have a great return policy. You could also look to see if they have a demo unit for sale.

Enjoy this new amp journey!
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Oktyabr on 29 Oct 2015, 02:56 am
Thanks for the tip!  I'll add that one to my list of solutions to consider!

Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Odal3 on 29 Oct 2015, 03:02 am
Yeah - you definetely need to see some movement on the input signal when you crank it up. Many have reported good results with both cheap amd expensive tube preamps. I use a cheap one (Little bear P3) with good results. There are also some people that connect speaker level from separate amp with home made cables with rca on one side and speaker connection on the other with some resistors in between. I want to try this at some point but haven't dared (convinced myself it is save) to do this with the other amp I have. This probably makes more sense if using the amps for subs.
Also check craigslist, ebay and guitar center for used stuff. A lot of pro audio can be had cheap if you look around abit.

Btw: if you are using it with an avr you may want to look into if you can manually adjust up the output level for the channels you send to the crown. May not work but at least worth a try. It also sounds like you have room correction on and another thing to do is to see if you can run the signal direct without any dsp adjustments in the receiver.

 Good luck.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: rodge827 on 29 Oct 2015, 03:40 am
Just purchased some balanced cables, I've been using an XLR-RCA cable form my Dspeaker Dual Core 2.0.
I hope to receive them soon and do a comparison.

Chris 
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: jk@home on 29 Oct 2015, 11:51 am
Just purchased some balanced cables, I've been using an XLR-RCA cable form my Dspeaker Dual Core 2.0.
I hope to receive them soon and do a comparison.

Chris

What balanced cables did you get? In the two channel system, I thought all balanced sounded better, even when using the extra op amps in the pre, to make the signals balanced.

Talk about going overboard with these amps...the balanced cables that I use going to the Crowns in the HT system (Mogami 2549s) are 10 footers, so I added Jensen Isomax output transformers to drive them from a Sony TAP9000. The Jensen units cost almost as much as the Crowns  :roll:, but I already had the two channel ones bought years ago, so just had to recently buy a mono version for the center channel. Right now using BJCs for the unbalanced, but have the material to replace them with more Mogamis, built in a single ended version.

(http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/640x480q90/908/AyJEVZ.jpg)


Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Oktyabr on 30 Oct 2015, 02:31 am
Yeah - you definetely need to see some movement on the input signal when you crank it up. Many have reported good results with both cheap amd expensive tube preamps. I use a cheap one (Little bear P3) with good results. There are also some people that connect speaker level from separate amp with home made cables with rca on one side and speaker connection on the other with some resistors in between. I want to try this at some point but haven't dared (convinced myself it is save) to do this with the other amp I have. This probably makes more sense if using the amps for subs.
Also check craigslist, ebay and guitar center for used stuff. A lot of pro audio can be had cheap if you look around abit.

Btw: if you are using it with an avr you may want to look into if you can manually adjust up the output level for the channels you send to the crown. May not work but at least worth a try. It also sounds like you have room correction on and another thing to do is to see if you can run the signal direct without any dsp adjustments in the receiver.

 Good luck.

Thanks.  I ordered that Rolls "ProMatch" unit and a pair of six foot XLR cables this morning.  We'll see how that goes.  I have a damn good headphone amp (Audio-Gd) that has pre out RCAs for powered speakers that I suspect might do the trick too but I hate to stuff it into my living room rack.

I thought about adjusting the output levels, raising them some more to see what happens, but that experiment will have to wait for this weekend.  I'll probably give a Yamaha desktop mixer with balanced TRS outs on it a go too.  Yes, you are correct.  The Yamaha version of room correction is what I used to set levels in conjunction with my center and rear surrounds.  However I always do my serious two channel listening in "pure direct" mode which bypasses all the EQ, DSP, etc.

I asked for a consensus on this in my first post and have googled about it some to no avail.  Is the Rolls unit considered any good?  Will I end up trying an ART converter too?  Someone else recommended a Behringer tube mic pre-amp that would look good in the rack ;) and the price doesn't hurt that much either.  On a tangent has anyone seen any similar threads (pro amps in home audio) concerning the newer 1502?  I'm starting to wonder if my money wouldn't have been better spent going with the newer and more expensive version...  although the XLS 1500 for $199 is simply an astounding deal.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: jk@home on 30 Oct 2015, 12:13 pm
The Apex units were recommended, I never needed one in my system though. See post 511.

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=105826.500 (http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=105826.500)
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Oktyabr on 30 Oct 2015, 08:08 pm
The Apex units were recommended, I never needed one in my system though. See post 511.

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=105826.500 (http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=105826.500)

Thanks!  I just punched the "buy now" button on one.  I can't seem to find much information on this unit beyond the manufacturer's pdf.  Any reviews anywhere?  Looking at some of the ebay listings it seems that the Aphex units must have had a much higher MSRP than the ART Cleanbox Pro or the Rolls I ordered...
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Jazzaudio on 2 Nov 2015, 02:52 am
I've been told: no further audio expenditures until after the Holiday's...or after I sell some items that I want to keep (and like!) but no longer use due to the physical rearrangement of my system :( 

But...I did manage to go to my local Guitar Center and spend $7.99 for a Neutrix NL4FX 4 Pole Speakon connector :)

I previously tried replacing the XLS1500's stock binding posts with the Pomona's, which, oddly enough, did not work for me soundwise (although they worked in another amplifier.)  It took less then ten minutes to twist off the rear cover on the Speakon connector, disconnect the unterminated speaker cables from the XLS's binding posts, insert the cable ends into the Speakon's screw lock terminals (in my case left cable ends into the respective 1-/1+ terminals , right ends into the 2-/2+ terminals), tighten the screws firmly, then insert and clicked the connector into the XLS's Channel 1 Speakon speaker output (CH1 is wired to output both left and right channels, i.e., stereo). Simple. Easy. I didn't thread the cables through the rear cover before inserting the connector into the XLS just in case I needed to fix/check something.

A quick 30 minute listen to various tracks through a cold XLS and CDP revealed night and day clarity throughout all the frequencies   Later listening after 24 hours of burn-in (without listening during burn-in period)made me want to slap myself for waiting so long.  You never realize how much grain and edge is present in the stock posts until after it's gone. Now I'm really hearing the XLS....wow.  Everything the XLS does sounds even better. I wont use the cliches!

Some thoughts:
1. I don't know if running the speaker cables separately from the Speakon CH 1 and CH 2 outputs would increase clarity or channel separation, but taking advantage of the 4 pole connections and simply using CH1 lends to simplicity, which cant hurt.
2. On a related note, have no fear about adding a connector to unterminated speaker cables.  To my ears the difference between the unterminated stock binding post connection and Speakon connection is so pronounced, I don't care about the connector.
3. The markings inside the Speakons are hard to see.  I double checked the layout from their website:
file:///C:/Users/Michael/Downloads/Assembly+Instruction+-+speakON+SPX+Series%20(1).pdf
4. The instructions state not to use a Phillips screwdriver....I did (or, at least I used what looked like a Phillips!)  Nothing stripped or broke, and the termination grip is tight.  Just ensure the wires are twisted tightly and fully inserted.  My cable's conductors are 10AWG, which made for a very tight fit




Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: mcgsxr on 2 Nov 2015, 12:39 pm
My 1500 has the Pomona's installed but I am considering adding speakon connectors to my bare speaker wire when I relocate the amp into the media closet.  Sounds like my 11g wire should fit a stock 2 pole speakon fine. 
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Oktyabr on 14 Nov 2015, 04:01 pm
Well, I've had the pair of Crown XLS 1500s for a couple of weeks now and they are keepers!  I might upgrade to the version 2 one day, when the right price accompanies them, but I even sold off my consumer amps and haven't turned back.  For gain I tried both the Rolls unit and a very nice Aphex 124A and ultimately went with the gain adjustment in my AVR after reading the well written tutorial (several times) at hometheatershack.  My rather efficient DIY open baffles might never make all the LEDs on the Crowns light up but they sound great!  The miniDSP I was using for XO duty is put away in a closet and I've been experimenting with the internal filters in the amps (one amp per side)...  Now the bug has bit and I'm starting to feel the seeds of DIY speaker madness growing in my brain again, but it's nice to know that the amps I've purchased are capable of coping much with much more than my current setup.  :)

PS I also bought a Tripp Lite AV86G "Eco Surge" power strip that lets me use my AVR as "Master" and the Crowns as slaves which works extremely well, with full EMI/RFI filtering as a bonus.


(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=131770)
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Panelhead on 27 Dec 2015, 03:09 pm
  I was late to the party. Purchased a XLS-1500 for 199.00 from B&H. Liked it so much I purchased a XLS-2000. Get the 2000, it has more inside.

1. The hum issues listed are input cable related. Found this because my previous amp was single ended with RCA input. My preamp is both. Once balanced cashless weere used there is no hum running wide open on the attenuators. They are not gain setting pots, they are input attenuators.
2. Did not know about Salis audio mods until last night. Did my own. It takes three different bits to get the board out of the 1500. Took my time.
 A. Added my dampers, 47 nfd, 250 volt Siemens stacked film, (blue conformal coating on ends) in series with a o1 ohm LVR-1 resistor across all the large electrolytic caps. Used the same damper for every application, not optimal.
 B. Added adhesive heavy rubber foam inside to try and damp the top and bottom. Used a lot, also on top of heat sinks. This way the lined top plate touches the sinks to help with potential ringing.
 C. Unsoldered the spades from the speaker cables and installed Speakon connectors.

  I suspect the cap dampers have the main impact. But this 20.00 in parts reversed the sound quality ranking. Before the 2000 was richer and more dynamic. Now the modded 1500 is more layered, detailed, and overall a large improvement in playback quality.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: dreamtheatervn on 31 Dec 2015, 04:25 pm
Hi everybody!
I've just bought a used Crown XTI 1002 ( I want the 1500 to follow tweak & mods of you guys here but no 1500 in my area). It's an interesting comparison between 1002 and my existing 1stwatt Amp camp, frankly speaking the 1002 smoked Amp camp easily in mid & HF but no win at all for LF. 
Anybody compares XTI 1002 with XLS 1500? I saw they have difference prices but have no idea about the sounds.
I am not good at professional audio , really appreciate if someone helps to explain functions of Xover, dsp, sub synth, delay, Eq in/out.
Happy new year 2016!
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: mjosef on 2 Jan 2016, 04:30 am
Hi everybody!
I've just bought a used Crown XTI 1002 ( I want the 1500 to follow tweak & mods of you guys here but no 1500 in my area). It's an interesting comparison between 1002 and my existing 1stwatt Amp camp, frankly speaking the 1002 smoked Amp camp easily in mid & HF but no win at all for LF. 
Anybody compares XTI 1002 with XLS 1500?


Been there done that...look for my earlier post in this thread. My impressions were that the XTi delivered superior bass and midrange vs the XLS. The manner of connection makes a big difference, I used the the XLR inputs and the SpeakOn outputs. DSP was set to 'Bypass' on the XTi.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: dreamtheatervn on 2 Jan 2016, 02:16 pm
Been there done that...look for my earlier post in this thread. My impressions were that the XTi delivered superior bass and midrange vs the XLS. The manner of connection makes a big difference, I used the the XLR inputs and the SpeakOn outputs. DSP was set to 'Bypass' on the XTi.

Thanks mjosef. I will try the SpeakOn outputs as your advice. Does the "Bypass" mean "DSP off" in the XTI?
Title: Dissapointed in XLS-1502
Post by: stonedeaf on 3 Jan 2016, 01:59 am
Figured that copying a strategy used by one of my customers decades ago (as long as it's a black box my parents won't notice new equipment/changes) -modified in my case to SWMBO'd won't notice etc.. SO -got three XLS-1502 in for a project and decided to hook two up in place of the two Adcom GFA-845-II that had been in use for a few months on top of the rack. Waited until she wasn't around to do the switch and took advantage of the turn off all the lights on the front capability -so they are just black boxes (OK-OK -more or less!). Deception only lasted about four hours )-:. "Those are new". Still -this justifies to some degree my commitment to the hiFi not hiEnd movement. She woulda sighted in on audio bling right off the bat.
   I've only got about four evenings in listening at this point - but my audio memory of the  two XLS-1500's  that were here for a few weeks before they went into a bar system is that the 1502's are a bit smoother on the top end and a little more pleasant on voices -the 02's might stay here for awhile. This is still a distinctly different audio "flavor" than the conventional AB or tube amps I'm used to. Maybe the difference between a nice Bourbon and a good Scotch ?
Title: Re: Dissapointed in XLS-1502
Post by: KKM on 4 Jan 2016, 07:16 pm
Figured that copying a strategy used by one of my customers decades ago (as long as it's a black box my parents won't notice new equipment/changes) -modified in my case to SWMBO'd won't notice etc.. SO -got three XLS-1502 in for a project and decided to hook two up in place of the two Adcom GFA-845-II that had been in use for a few months on top of the rack. Waited until she wasn't around to do the switch and took advantage of the turn off all the lights on the front capability -so they are just black boxes (OK-OK -more or less!). Deception only lasted about four hours )-:. "Those are new". Still -this justifies to some degree my commitment to the hiFi not hiEnd movement. She woulda sighted in on audio bling right off the bat.
   I've only got about four evenings in listening at this point - but my audio memory of the  two XLS-1500's  that were here for a few weeks before they went into a bar system is that the 1502's are a bit smoother on the top end and a little more pleasant on voices -the 02's might stay here for awhile. This is still a distinctly different audio "flavor" than the conventional AB or tube amps I'm used to. Maybe the difference between a nice Bourbon and a good Scotch ?

My understanding that the 2nd XLS generation had the same electronics but included some extra features so should sound the same? Maybe the newness of the 1502 needs some breaking in? Here is the original press release describing the difference:

http://www.crownaudio.com/en-US/news/harman-s-crown-introduces-xls-drivecore-2-amplifiers-with-upgraded-features-and-flexibility
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: mjosef on 5 Jan 2016, 02:28 am
Does the "Bypass" mean "DSP off" in the XTI?

Yes.
Also check to make sure you have the most recent software version in the XTi, I thought the lastest release sounded a little better than the old/previous software. It came out about 6 months ago, if you have a new model XTi it may already be installed.
Title: my XLS-1500 is sounding good.
Post by: Panelhead1 on 28 Jan 2016, 03:53 pm
  Copied some is the mods performed by Salis Audio and added dampening resistors across the chokes. Used Ohmite 2k, 5w, thick film type for low inductance. This seemed to warm up the sonics a little. Still not lush or ripe just very clear and neutral.
  This seems to have made the 1500 sound closer to a 2000. They do sound different, the 2000 is better. To get to this point;
1. Using XLR inputs and Speakon outputs.
2. Bypassed the 7 larger electrolytic with a 47nfd stacked film capon series with a 0.1 ohm current sense resistor.
3. Applied heavy closed cell rubber inside to damp the chassis.
4.Resisive dampening on the CMC's.

  The unit does need to be powered for a few hours to sound the best. Not sure why.
  The mods Performed are all dampening. Electrical on the power supply and mechanical for the chassis.
  Overall very good results from a 200.00 amp with a little over 20.00 in parts sloppily installed.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: lamcam on 12 Feb 2016, 07:53 pm
Hi all, my 1st post here.  I just purchased the XLS1502, and want to bi-wire my speakers.  Can I use both connectors on my amp (Speakon and banana) to connect to my speakers?
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: dreamtheatervn on 13 Feb 2016, 03:50 am
If Xti series sounds much better than Xls series, why dont we jump to Xti which just a little bit pricer?

I have returned my Xti1002 because of imbalance of sound ( Ch1 louder than Ch2), maybe it's too old to serve me more  :lol:
I am gonna buy another Xti but price is far different from B&H(US, Xti 1002@$499) to Taobao (China, http://world.taobao.com/item/43177327853.htm?spm=a312a.7700714.0.0.pOR1g7#detail) plus shipping. Don't know which way to go?
Appreciate all suggestions.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!high speed fan
Post by: stonedeaf on 21 Feb 2016, 04:35 am
so got six weeks of pleasant listening in using a pair of XLS-1502's. . Got a odd problem with one of 'em -every once in awhile it will go into high speed fan mode -which is pretty noisy -this will last for 3 or 4 min. -drop down to normal operation ( very ,very quiet -not sure fan is on?). And that's it for hours -just fine. I've instaalled my third unit in the questionable units place and will probably send it in to Crown - just wondering if anyone else has encountered this ?
    Been thinkin about why the 1502's seem so much more impressive to me than the 1500's i had here for a few weeks -could it be I'm using the balanced  in on the  02's and never did that with the 1500 ?
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!high speed fan
Post by: Wind Chaser on 21 Feb 2016, 06:48 am
So got six weeks of pleasant listening in using a pair of XLS-1502's...

Been thinking about why the 1502's seem so much more impressive to me than the 1500's I had here for a few weeks -could it be I'm using the balanced  in on the  02's and never did that with the 1500?

How so?
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: stonedeaf on 21 Feb 2016, 03:56 pm
While I'd still characterize the XLS-1502 as slightly brighter or detailed sounding amp - there is a sense of ease to this amp that i didn't get out of the 1500 when they were playing thru my system last year.The 1500's were listened to for a couple of weeks - probably a total of 50 hours of TV audio and LP as sources. Both times the amps are being run into a pair of Paradigm Studio 20 speakers -one channel to each driver. Preamp is a Bryston BP-25 and again mostly LP with a fair dose of TV audio (which frankly I don't pay a lot of attention to).One of the surprises which I don't remember noticing with the 1500's is a pretty dramatic improvement in imaging specificity - given a good recording -these amps really paint the picture between the speakers and even to the sides -really remarkable for amps that sell for less than 400 bucks each . The only programming I've done from out of the box is to select input-Y -so that Input 1 is sent out of both amp channels. Like the 1500 the 1502 does sound like a "real"  high power amp - I am not a head banger - but still -I've never come close to driving either amp into clipping . It would take volume levels that would be damaging to both my speakers and my hearing to do that. BTW- the amp these (maybe temporarily) replaced is a Bryston 4B-ST-which is now headed to Vermont for repair.Amps and other equipment are on 24/7 .
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: henrylr on 24 Feb 2016, 06:16 pm
Today I stumbled upon some reviews of the Bybee music rails. I had never heard of them but what I found were positive remarks mostly on sites that sell them.

Do they make a real improvement? If so, would they be appropriate to install somewhere in my system? The system is a Meridian 506.20 CD player, Aragon 18K MkII preamp and Mccormack DNA amp.

If so, can someone with good soldering skills be able to do it at home? Are there any very clear installation instructions available?

Thanks,
henrylr
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: barryso on 5 Apr 2016, 12:59 am
Hi all,

Just wanted to do an update to the posts from a year ago.  I was lucky enough to get on the Crown XLS 1500 tour and had a chance to listen with various speakers and preamps.

The cj and Anthem preamps both sounded good with the Crown but the Transcendent Grounded Grid wasn't cutting it.  It seemed odd at the time as it's always been one of my favorite inexpensive preamps.

Finally sat down with the Grounded Grid again and it wasn't sounding good on any of the current gear either, even stuff it always got along with nicely.  New tubes didn't help so I dragged it into the basement to see what was ailing it.  Long one short, it seems to have had a bad solder connection somewhere.  Re-flowing most of the connections seems to have brought it back to it's old wonderful self. 

The preamp was built from scratch so this wasn't an issue with the Transcendent Sound kit. I must have gotten something a bit off doing the point to point wiring 15 years ago.

NOW it would be nice to have the Crown back in the house.

It would be interesting to hear a comparison between the xls 1500 and the xls 1502 amps.  Curious to know how the lower voltage input setting might change the sound of the amp when driving it from non-pro electronics.  Anyone had the chance to hear the old model in the same system as the new one?

Many thanks,
Barry
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Panelhead1 on 5 Apr 2016, 02:10 pm
Today I stumbled upon some reviews of the Bybee music rails. I had never heard of them but what I found were positive remarks mostly on sites that sell them.

Do they make a real improvement?

Thanks,
henrylr

Henry,
  I think most of the comments I have seen for these are on commercial websites. They are a form of active noise filter for voltage rails. The circuitry is not a new development.
  Suspect they do lower the noise on the rails. May sound better and should be an easy install.
 
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: flat4 on 17 May 2016, 02:06 pm
New here guys. Just purchased an XLS2502 for a great price to try out. Really surprised at the imaging and detail it produces. Of course power and dynamics are not a problem. This is my budget system/home theatre system. So far i am running an outlaw 975 pre/pro with an old Sony cd/dvd player. I also am running some Klipsch tower i purchased open box at a big retailer. It is getting upgraded a little at a time. Next up is some LSA 2.1 towers. Trying to decide on digital. All interconnects and speaker cable will be replaced after that.

I do have a hissing at idle with the amp gain controls all the way up. Was thinking of adding a line level gain unit from HTD so i can turn the controls down. Any suggestions?
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: rodge827 on 17 May 2016, 02:48 pm
The HTD gain booster should work well. I had very good results with an IFi iTube from my Outlaw 975 PrePro.  There is an overall sound quality improvement. Only issue is the iTube is about 4x the cost of the HTD Booster.

Chris
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: flat4 on 17 May 2016, 03:22 pm
The HTD gain booster should work well. I had very good results with an IFi iTube from my Outlaw 995 PrePro.  There is an overall sound quality improvement. Only issue is the iTube is about 4x the cost of the HTD Booster.

Chris

Thanks for the reply Chris. The iTube looks interesting. Might wind up giving it a try. I have the input sensitivity on the amp set at 1.4v. There is less hiss that way but still think a booster would help as i could lower the gains. Maybe i will try the HTD first and go from there.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: roscoeiii on 17 May 2016, 03:57 pm
New here guys. Just purchased an XLS2502 for a great price to try out. Really surprised at the imaging and detail it produces. Of course power and dynamics are not a problem. This is my budget system/home theatre system. So far i am running an outlaw 975 pre/pro with an old Sony cd/dvd player. I also am running some Klipsch tower i purchased open box at a big retailer. It is getting upgraded a little at a time. Next up is some LSA 2.1 towers. Trying to decide on digital. All interconnects and speaker cable will be replaced after that.

I do have a hissing at idle with the amp gain controls all the way up. Was thinking of adding a line level gain unit from HTD so i can turn the controls down. Any suggestions?

The Outlaw doesn't have enough gain to allow you to trim the amp gain? Many of us have found we prefer between noon and 3 o'clock on the dial. Gives you finer volume control on your pre and gets it in a more ideal range for the pre dial as well (pots are at their worst at the low end of the dial).
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Odal3 on 17 May 2016, 04:00 pm
Edit: Roscoeii beat me to it when I was typing so heres a repeat  of his message :D

Many of the comments for the older version of the amp (1500, 2000, 2500) recommended gain to be best around 1 o'clock.

Since you are running it with a pre/pro, check if you can increase the level output for those channels.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: roscoeiii on 17 May 2016, 04:26 pm
Klipsch are also usually damn efficient, so you'd be more likely to hear a him or buzz at full gain.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: flat4 on 17 May 2016, 04:37 pm
Great suggestions guys! I am trying to learn this pre/pro thing and its adjustments. Had to look in the manual. Lol Seems with the pre/pro adjusted to +10db  internally and the amp set at 9-10 o'clock position keeps the noise down and gives me plenty of volume. It seems to have cleaned up the bass and getting a cleaner more open sound. Maybe i am just hearing things?  I know for sure the more i burn in the pre/pro and the amp it's sounding better. :D
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: flat4 on 17 May 2016, 04:39 pm
Klipsch are also usually damn efficient, so you'd be more likely to hear a him or buzz at full gain.

Yes they are efficient for sure so you are probably right about hearing some hiss. These are the R28F's from BB. They will need an upgrade me thinks but for what i have invested in this system so far it is pretty decent to my amazement.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Odal3 on 17 May 2016, 04:57 pm
Try turning down the pre/pro level a bit so you can dial in the crown amp closer to 1 o'clock gain and  check if that sounds even better. Utilizing a lower level output from the pre/pro will also make it easier to integrate surrounds, center  and subs if you are using it in a HT setup.

In other words, start with the crown amp at 1 o'clock gain and adjust the levels in the pre pro for each channel so you have an even level from all the speakers. The pre/pro normally have a built in test tone but if not there are many multichannel test DVD or surround test video online. Good luck and have fun!
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: flat4 on 17 May 2016, 05:27 pm
Try turning down the pre/pro level a bit so you can dial in the crown amp closer to 1 o'clock gain and  check if that sounds even better. Utilizing a lower level output from the pre/pro will also make it easier to integrate surrounds, center  and subs if you are using it in a HT setup.

In other words, start with the crown amp at 1 o'clock gain and adjust the levels in the pre pro for each channel so you have an even level from all the speakers. The pre/pro normally have a built in test tone but if not there are many multichannel test DVD or surround test video online. Good luck and have fun!

Thank you Odal. I am currently only running two channel but plan a center and maybe surrounds. HT isn't really my first priority to be honest. Will be moving in a year and plans are for a dedicated sound room if all goes as planned. This will be a 2nd system. Big thing for me on HT is a center.

Yes the 975 has a test tone. Was trying to get the balance of lowering the hiss and being able to have enough gain for max listening levels when using the volume on the 975. I seem to have it set best i can. Also like mentioned with sensitive speakers i will always have some hissing at idle. So not sure if i should grab the line-level gain from htd as it might not help.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: flat4 on 19 May 2016, 08:54 pm
This thing keeps getting better with time! I haven't finished reading this entire thread yet. Has anyone run 2 in mono? Results? Any internal mods that can or should be done?

Think i am gonna order another. For anyone on the fence on trying one Crown has $50.00 off until June. The company i ordered from had great hassle free service. Love this amp especially for the money.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Folsom on 19 May 2016, 11:11 pm
I'll still perform mods, but feedback has never truly come in for them since almost everyone just had them done before listening. Again I think it sounded much more organic, but it's always nice to have extra opinions.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: isitu on 20 May 2016, 03:35 am
Is it okay to daisy chain 2 8ohm subwoofers off of 1 bridged xls2500?

thanks for advice,
isitu
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: isitu on 20 May 2016, 03:37 am
I meant 2 4ohm subwoofers...excuse me

isitu
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: mcgsxr on 20 May 2016, 10:09 am
If you mean run the 2 in series creating a 4 ohm load yes.  If you mean run the 2 in parallel creating a 2 ohm load I don't think the Crown is rated for 2 ohms bridged.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: JohnR on 20 May 2016, 10:12 am
For 2 x 4-ohm subs, it would be simpler to just run the amp in stereo mode.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: isitu on 20 May 2016, 02:45 pm
I have been running them in a home theater for a year now and the fan never turns on and they sound ok. but...

Just got off the phone with crown and talked to 2 techs(maybe the 2 of you that responded?) and both said no but they didn't say it would kill the amp. They are 2 older eminence 4 ohm 18's


Best thing here is to re wire in stereo. running them in parallel is a touch confusing to me these days...guess I could. just have to stay focused for a half hour maybe haha...we have the revenent on bdp so maybe rewire in strereo for now...maybe not hmmmm

wow...my minds slipping or did a year ago...4ohm + 4ohm =2ohm not 8ohm as in a daisy chain
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: isitu on 20 May 2016, 02:47 pm
excuse me...thank you for your responses. what a great forum!
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: isitu on 20 May 2016, 07:34 pm
got them in stereo now. not much difference in music. wife has a few movies so hopefully get to compare this weekend. anymore comments please tell. and thanks again for the hand in clearing my fog

isitu
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: flat4 on 11 Jun 2016, 02:25 am
Anyone have a pic of the insides with the top cover off on the Crown?
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Panelhead1 on 11 Jun 2016, 05:09 am
  I need to look. Thought a few were taken while my XLS-1500 was modified. Planning on modifying a XLS-2000 some more.
  Folsom may have taken more pictures of a stock unit.
  I keep seeing the gain level mentioned. If balanced inputs are used the gain can be fully maximized. The pot is an input attenuator. If things are working correctly, the SN ratio is fine.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: flat4 on 11 Jun 2016, 07:51 pm
Thanks PH1. Should you not have pics I will pull the cover when i have time. Just curious to see what's going on on there. Do you have a balanced pre out or going RCA out to XLR in?
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Folsom on 12 Jun 2016, 12:32 am
Google Search, numerous pics.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: flat4 on 12 Jun 2016, 12:54 am
My google skills must be lacking. LOL
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: ccklone on 12 Jun 2016, 03:13 am
Hey Now,

Google-fu is an art  :D

(http://www.punkjob.com/CrownXLS1500-3.jpg)

(http://www.acdnow.com/theater/XLS1500Top.jpg)

--
Finest kind,
Chris
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: flat4 on 12 Jun 2016, 03:51 am
Hey Now,

Google-fu is an art  :D

(http://www.punkjob.com/CrownXLS1500-3.jpg)

(http://www.acdnow.com/theater/XLS1500Top.jpg)

--
Finest kind,



Thank you Chris! I kept coming up with not so good pics for some reason. These are what i was trying to find.

Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: flat4 on 16 Jun 2016, 09:42 pm
For the folks using rca out into xlr in on the amp what are you using for cables? Thank you!
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: flat4 on 17 Jun 2016, 12:57 pm
Anyone try an unbalanced to balanced converter? Any improvement as far as less noise if so?
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: jlawson1977 on 17 Jun 2016, 03:49 pm
Anyone try an unbalanced to balanced converter? Any improvement as far as less noise if so?

I use a Rolls ProMatch MB15B to convert RCA to XLR.  It outputs 1.4 volts which is a real benefit for the Crown.  The output is adjustable and also has RCA out, perfect for the sub.  I have the gains on my Crown set at about 11:00.  Less noise and greater dynamics with the higher input voltage. The Rolls unit is quiet, but it did introduce some ground loop noise.  Turned out to be a cable issue going to the sub.  All is good now :)
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: jk@home on 18 Jun 2016, 02:57 am
 (http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/640x480q90/908/AyJEVZ.jpg)

I'm using Jensen output tranny units (Isomax) between a high gain pre and the three XLS1500s in the HT system. They are passive, so no added gain. Definitely a cleaner sound than when I used to use just unbalanced to balanced cables.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: flat4 on 18 Jun 2016, 06:09 pm
I will take a look at these two products. I tried unbalanced to balanced cables and had a loud hum coming from both speakers. RCA only and no hum. Probably just stick with unbalanced RCA.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: flat4 on 27 Jul 2016, 04:07 pm
So another XLS2502 b-stock came up and i pulled the trigger. Gonna burn it and once burned going to run these in mono for giggles. Also nabbed an xli800 for my center channel in this low budget HT system. Gonna be fun!
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: flat4 on 30 Jul 2016, 03:23 pm
So received both amps. The XLI800 is working nice powering my center channel for movies. Running in the 2nd XLS2502. Hopefully in a week i can have the 2502's running in mono mode.

Need to get them out to Folsom eventually to work his magic!
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: flat4 on 5 Aug 2016, 04:33 pm
Ok, 2502's are running in mono. Truly was not expecting much. Figured i would try it and pack one up and wait until i had to power some rear channels with it. Not gonna happen! In mono i am experiencing better imaging, more space between instruments, tighter faster bass and an overall smoother sound. Sounds better at lower volumes also and if i crank it they never distort. Power for days. Ears will give in before the amps will. Lol I am truly surprised by the improvement.

Kind of reminds me of some higher end class d amps i auditioned. The stereo amp was sweet. Switched up to the mono models and big improvement in sound. Really happy with this setup. Have only $2100.00 invested in speakers, pre/pro, amps and cables. I listen to 90 percent two channel on it so next upgrade will be maybe an oppo HA-1. I can run balanced to the Crowns and the Oppo has theater bypass  for when we watch movies. Should also keep with my lower cost theme. After that new main speakers.

I realize this thread is dead but figured this might be useful info for someone down the road.

Of course ymmv. Keep in mind this is what i experienced in my room, with my current system and to my ears.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: mcgsxr on 5 Aug 2016, 06:40 pm
I imagine lots of folks check in here during research, so great to see sharing still going on.

I bought a Crown XLS 1500 through this thread, and when I was using Magnepan 1.6QR's it was fantastic.  I sold the Maggies due to some "feline conflict".

I will try the Crown with my new (to me) speakers (older Focal Electra 906's).  Not sure I need all that power for ~90db efficient speakers though.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: flat4 on 5 Aug 2016, 07:26 pm
I imagine lots of folks check in here during research, so great to see sharing still going on.

I bought a Crown XLS 1500 through this thread, and when I was using Magnepan 1.6QR's it was fantastic.  I sold the Maggies due to some "feline conflict".

I will try the Crown with my new (to me) speakers (older Focal Electra 906's).  Not sure I need all that power for ~90db efficient speakers though.

Anxious to hear your report with the Focals. I am running cheap Klipsch floor standers. They claim 98db but highly unlikely. Probably more like 92db. I bought the 2502's for $470.00 each so figured couldn't go wrong even though more power than needed. Should you ever get a chance to grab another 1500 and run them in mono i think you would be surprised.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: DaveC113 on 5 Aug 2016, 09:01 pm
I'm using mine to power some AE 15" woofers, for this purpose the Crown XLS are definitely excellent, full stop. Running full range, not as refined mid/highs as some other amps I have, but still the overall value for the money is incredible and some DIY can take care of f lot of the refinement issues.

 
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: flat4 on 5 Aug 2016, 09:36 pm
I'm using mine to power some AE 15" woofers, for this purpose the Crown XLS are definitely excellent, full stop. Running full range, not as refined mid/highs as some other amps I have, but still the overall value for the money is incredible and some DIY can take care of f lot of the refinement issues.

Yes more of a value for the money thing that i am getting a kick out of. Like i mentioned running them in mono seemed to have smooth out the highs and cleared up kids and lows. Maybe all in my mind? Well that's half the battle. Lol  Would like to do a blind A/B stereo versus mono.

Dave, i know folsom does some tweaks. You have anything else?
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: flat4 on 5 Aug 2016, 09:37 pm
Yes more of a value for the money thing that i am getting a kick out of. Like i mentioned running them in mono seemed to have smooth out the highs and cleared up mids and lows are quicker and have more punch. Less muddy all and all is only way i can convey it. Maybe all in my mind? Well that's half the battle. Lol  Would like to do a blind A/B stereo versus mono.

Dave, i know folsom does some tweaks. You have anything else?
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Manolo on 13 Aug 2016, 02:48 pm
Hello: Because of this thread I am trying the xls1000 with my spatial m4's..... Wow, impressive, a little cold sounding but musical and I'm hearing things in the recordings that were not apparent before with my First Watt F4 class A amp.... so next with my Quad 988's ...Nice discovery!
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: OzarkTom on 13 Aug 2016, 04:18 pm
Hello: Because of this thread I am trying the xls1000 with my spatial m4's..... Wow, impressive, a little cold sounding but musical and I'm hearing things in the recordings that were not apparent before with my First Watt F4 class A amp.... so next with my Quad 988's ...Nice discovery!


I have a pair of m3's coming in next week and will I will hook up my Folsum moddded 1500 to them.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: flat4 on 13 Aug 2016, 05:14 pm

I have a pair of m3's coming in next week and will I will hook up my Folsum moddded 1500 to them.

Looking forward to your impressions.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: flat4 on 13 Aug 2016, 05:16 pm
Had some time to do some a/b with single in stereo versus two in bridged mode. Definitely better all around in bridged mode. Seems to go against things i have read about bridging amps in the past.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: stonedeaf on 30 Sep 2016, 05:01 am
Been runnin XLS-1502 for awhile - one question -has anyone seen a full blown FTC power rating test for any of the XLS-XXX2 amps ?
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: ST on 24 Oct 2016, 04:06 am
I got myself Crown XLS2000 to drive the Sound Lab ESL speakers. It replaced my old 250W per channel Classe Audio. Frankly, I don't hear any difference A/B'ing but subjectively I think Crown's HF are better.

https://youtu.be/SsKN2rhQdCM
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Derockster on 24 Oct 2016, 01:13 pm
All,

I have just stumbled onto this thread at the same time I'm about to build two passive subs with with an outboard electronic crossover and separate amp to drive them.
My question is how high does the cross over point in the Crown amps cut off at?
I am aiming to have my subs play from 400Hz down to 35Hz.
Will the crossover in the crown be able to do this?

Regards

Derockster
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: DaveC113 on 24 Oct 2016, 03:09 pm
^ yes
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Derockster on 24 Oct 2016, 03:49 pm
Thanks Dave,

Straight to the point :lol:
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Armaegis on 24 Oct 2016, 05:31 pm
Why such a high crossover point?
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Derockster on 24 Oct 2016, 06:01 pm
I have a pair of horns which carries a four inch Fostex  fullrange driver which I want to use my subs with.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Panelhead1 on 25 Oct 2016, 01:27 am
  Without knowing the horn design the 400 hz crossover is very high. What is the Fs of the Foster driver?
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Derockster on 25 Oct 2016, 01:41 am
83Hz
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Panelhead on 26 Oct 2016, 02:53 am
  I would cross over somewhere around 120 Hz with steep slope. I use a software crossover right now. Using 18 dB/octave filters (quasi-Butterworth) on Thiel CS-3.5 and Final sub.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Derockster on 26 Oct 2016, 12:48 pm
Thanks Panelhead for the advice.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Derockster on 8 Nov 2016, 10:32 pm
Hi,

I just purchased a Crown XLS Drive Core 1002, some assistance would be greatly appreciated.

Here's what i want to do:
Use the crossover in the crown in both low pass for a pair of subs and in high pass for the horns.
I will be using a separate amp to play the horns.
Can this be done using one crown or will I require a second one and if it can be done can someone explain how I go about it?

Regards

derockster
Title: XLS subsonic filter ?
Post by: stonedeaf on 11 Nov 2016, 06:40 am
Getting close to getting my crossover less B&W 801 cabinets and woofers up and running . Plan to use my Crown XLS-1502 amps and their built in electronic crossovers for this project. My question is I've seen complaints/rumblings about built in subsonic filters on these amps ? Most of my music listening is done from LP's -so IMO this would be a good thing. Has any one come across either a official genuine factory spec as to frequency / slope for this filtering out sub-sonic stuff ? Or -a test report that examined this aspect of the XLS -XXX2 's performance ?
   BTW- a friend has described this project as probably having  a WAF of around .01 (I've been afraid to ask whether that's grading on a 10 point or 100 point scale ?).
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: jk@home on 22 Nov 2016, 03:57 pm
...My question is I've seen complaints/rumblings about built in subsonic filters on these amps ? Most of my music listening is done from LP's -so IMO this would be a good thing. Has any one come across either a official genuine factory spec as to frequency / slope for this filtering out sub-sonic stuff ? Or -a test report that examined this aspect of the XLS -XXX2 's performance ?

There is an AVS thread on the matter, a fellow measured them and proved otherwise.

http://www.avsforum.com/forum/155-diy-speakers-subs/1444577-crown-xls-drivecore-amps-subsonic-content-v-we-have-problem-houston-5.html (http://www.avsforum.com/forum/155-diy-speakers-subs/1444577-crown-xls-drivecore-amps-subsonic-content-v-we-have-problem-houston-5.html)

I'm using my 1500s on some diy Ultimax sub kits now. If there is a subsonic filter there, it is easily overcome with a DSP unit, like the MiniDSP I'm using here.

(http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/640x480q90/924/bf2Z9L.jpg)

BTW, I stated here before that even though I felt the Pomona binding posts upgraded the sound on these amps, I had a hard time keeping them tight in the chassis. So when I switched the amps over to the subs, changed the binding posts to these, which are more secure:

http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Keystone-Electronics/4109/?qs=sGAEpiMZZMvNHPdpUdAofL7h58HQ4El0 (http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Keystone-Electronics/4109/?qs=sGAEpiMZZMvNHPdpUdAofL7h58HQ4El0)

(http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/640x480q90/924/oq22F2.jpg)
 
FYI, another thing I noticed recently is that Yamaha has come out with a new budget class D. Looks like it has DSP galore:

http://www.yamahaproaudio.com/europe/en_gb/products/poweramps/px/lineup.jsp (http://www.yamahaproaudio.com/europe/en_gb/products/poweramps/px/lineup.jsp)

I'm still a big fan of the Yamaha PXXXXS line (class A/B). In both my HT and 2 channel systems running full range, IMO they sound better than the Crown Ds. Looks like they may be discontinuing them. Bummer.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: dimedrol on 15 Feb 2017, 02:17 pm
Dear owners of Crown XLS amps, could you check if you can hear any hiss from the unit itself? My 2002 hisses a bit. Not badly, but still in a dead silent room I can hear it from 2 meters away, so I'm wondering if it's because it doesn't like something (the current or the connected devices or something else maybe) or is it just the way it works?
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: DaveC113 on 15 Feb 2017, 04:43 pm
Dear owners of Crown XLS amps, could you check if you can hear any hiss from the unit itself? My 2002 hisses a bit. Not badly, but still in a dead silent room I can hear it from 2 meters away, so I'm wondering if it's because it doesn't like something (the current or the connected devices or something else maybe) or is it just the way it works?

It's not a quiet amp by any means. No big deal when used for bass/subwoofer but a bit of an issue with high efficiency speakers imo. On my 90 dB speakers it's not an issue, with 100+ dB there's a bit too much noise. Excess gain in the system is more of a problem as a result as well. With average speakers and no excess gain you shouldn't hear hiss from more than a ft or so away from the speaker, more than I want to hear but not horrible. Hearing hiss from 2 meters is a big problem though!

Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Panelhead1 on 15 Feb 2017, 05:07 pm
Dear owners of Crown XLS amps, could you check if you can hear any hiss from the unit itself? My 2002 hisses a bit. Not badly, but still in a dead silent room I can hear it from 2 meters away, so I'm wondering if it's because it doesn't like something (the current or the connected devices or something else maybe) or is it just the way it works?

  Are you using the XLR or RCA inputs? I have a 1500 and a 2000 and they are both very quiet with a balanced input.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: dimedrol on 15 Feb 2017, 05:37 pm
I have to say the noise is coming from the unit itself, the speakers are quiet. And I am using balanced connection. As you put an ear close to the amp, do you hear any noise at all? Mine is like 15kHz hiss, like I hear the actual electricity flowing. And because it's kind of 15kHz high, it's not quite as noticeable as say toroid rumble.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Odal3 on 15 Feb 2017, 08:01 pm
Could it be the internal fan?
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: dimedrol on 15 Feb 2017, 09:51 pm
no fan I have ever heard emits 15khz hiss. More sounds like electrical noise. But folks, could you check your own crown to see if there's any noise at all, or is everybody saying theirs are dead silent? That I can hardly believe, because every single switching power supply I've ever had hissed, some more, others less.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Panelhead1 on 16 Feb 2017, 04:46 pm
  I misunderstood your issue. Thought you were getting noise from the speakers. Mine are at the bottom of a heavy wood rack. Will get down and listen.
  The chokes may be singing. Folsom recommended dampening them with a resistor to prevent this. Think a 2k, 5 watt was his choice here. He may contribute his thoughts.
   I have heard diodes make this noise in tube amps. Especially after replacing a one amp bridge with a three amp. Folsom replaced the stock diodes when he offered mods for the Crown units. Said the diodes was a lot of work.
  The flimsy chassis was a concern. Damped the lid and chassis. Snubbed the filter caps, and damped the chokes in both of my units. One or all these changes may lower the physical noise generated.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Panelhead1 on 17 Feb 2017, 04:30 am
  Played a little music and turned volume off the listen to unit for mechanical noise. None.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: seikosha on 17 Feb 2017, 01:39 pm
no fan I have ever heard emits 15khz hiss. More sounds like electrical noise. But folks, could you check your own crown to see if there's any noise at all, or is everybody saying theirs are dead silent? That I can hardly believe, because every single switching power supply I've ever had hissed, some more, others less.

Even if everyone's unit was emitting a 15khz hiss, most can't hear that high and would swear that their unit was dead silent.  I'd probably be one of them.  That's the upper limit of my hearing last time I checked.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: dimedrol on 17 Feb 2017, 08:01 pm
I opened the cover and listened closely - it's the transformer that the noise is coming from. It is much more pronounced with the cover open. Since it's high pitched, those frequencies are easily absorbed with any kind of shield, so I just went ahead and duct-taped 50% of the front panel vent holes. That has significantly reduced the audible noise. Considering I'm only using 1/5 of the amp's power, I think it won't burn the house.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Armaegis on 17 Feb 2017, 10:17 pm
Maybe just put a small throw pillow in front of the amp?  That should absorb a good chunk of the sound and not block your ventilation.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: dimedrol on 21 Feb 2017, 01:49 pm
so this one here sings pretty badly


(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=158190)

I thought it was the transformer that hissed, but it wasn't. It's the choke. Any helpful ideas on how to tame it?
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Panelhead1 on 22 Feb 2017, 02:47 am
  Try mechanical dampening. A cork cabinet door bumper might be perfect. Look at Ace or another full service hardware store.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Armaegis on 22 Feb 2017, 03:11 am
If it doesn't have any heat, I'd be tempted to just glob hot glue over it.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: dimedrol on 22 Feb 2017, 10:00 am
folks on diyaudio suggested that the hiss may be a consequence of an upstream problem, so it's worth to do some checks there before acoustically dampening the choke. I decided to sent it for repair to people with an oscilloscope. Hopefully it's just the choke that is faulty in which case a local fix will suffice.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Jazzaudio on 4 Mar 2017, 05:43 pm
Is Salis Audio still around and cryoing amps?
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: guest61169 on 20 May 2017, 07:43 pm
folks on diyaudio suggested that the hiss may be a consequence of an upstream problem, so it's worth to do some checks there before acoustically dampening the choke. I decided to sent it for repair to people with an oscilloscope. Hopefully it's just the choke that is faulty in which case a local fix will suffice.

So what was the resolution for this issue?
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: mosawdust on 21 May 2017, 01:56 pm
I want to thank everyone who participated in the post and all the testing. I read through every post a couple of times and decided it was time for me to jump on board. I ended up with a pair of XLS1502's running in bridged mode to power my VMPS ST/R's and I can say I'm a happy camper. These are going through a CA integrated as my pre which is working decently. Thanks to everyone for the great efforts and testing.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: MindRise on 27 Feb 2018, 11:51 pm
I have the XLS-1502, I'm curious if these will fit

https://www.ebay.com/itm/PURE-COPPER-Speaker-Amplifier-Binding-Post-Connectors-MADE-IN-UK-Two-Pair/173129386674?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: kane on 12 Mar 2018, 05:32 am
Has anyone checked out/ used the Crown XLC series??

It is apparently XLS without AD/DA conversion inside. Sounds like XLS qulity at lower price.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Armaegis on 22 Mar 2018, 06:56 am
Has anyone here had experience with the QSC PLD lineup? It's not Crown, but I figure this thread might contain the only people who would have experience with it.

Right now I've got a PA rig (bi-amped tops and subs) that I haul around with a stupid heavy trio of Yamaha P7000s. I'd really love to reduce the weight/size down to 4U and save my back, but the options out there seem limited and I don't have the money to spend on Powersoft amps (though I do drool over the 1U 4-channel amps). Must have 4pole speakons at the back.
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: celo on 22 Feb 2019, 06:30 pm
What a long thread!

I know I am doing a shortcut but I have few questions.

1-Salis Audio is gone and it is Folsom, yes?
2-Is this the DriveCore or the current DriveCore 2 amp we are talking about?
3-Is the gain adjustable with this amp?
4-Anybody still do mods to this amp and if so what are these mods?

I have never heard DriveCore before. I have had TI TPA3116/18.
They were good but not Tripath good.
So, when looking for a comparable chip to Tripath sound, someone said Crown DriveCore amps. That’s how I ended up here:)
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: cubiclecrush on 29 Jun 2020, 07:42 pm
Everyone who claimed the speaker connectors are poor were right on the money.  After doing a lot of listening I put the bare cables into speakon connectors.  Immediately noticed the mids and treble cleaned up considerably.  The tonality is better and a lot of grunge is gone.  It makes little sense as it added an additional connector in the signal path but it made quite a nice improvement.

Before the speakon connectors I was going to say the mids and treble were OK and fairly grain free but not clean enough for a long listening session.  The speakon connectors take it up at least a few steps.  The mids and highs are more to a level you'd expect in a more expensive amp and it sounds good.

No, the speakons didn't add the harmonic richness of a tube amp but they made a pretty astounding improvement.  I wouldn't have the right impression of the amp if this thread hadn't pointed out the connectors need help.

Wow - I'm loving the switch to Speakon cables for my XLS1500!  I got some custom speaker cables at a reasonable price and I think it cleaned up the sound from when I was using the regular binding posts. 
https://www.performanceaudio.com/custom-cables-speaker-cable-made-from-canare-4s11-speaker-wire.html

Next I might try a balanced passive preamp with XLR connections....but one step at a time. 

(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=211095)
Title: Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
Post by: Satriany.powa on 13 May 2023, 05:03 am
Hello,

I was wondering if there has been a recent comparison between last version of crown xls and Yamaha px series and ncore series but only to drive subwoofers? Like 15" heavy woofer...

Regards Greg