RM200 Input Impedance

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Eric

RM200 Input Impedance
« on: 8 Feb 2008, 03:28 pm »
Roger,

The input inpedance for Single Ended on the RM-200 is sort of low (15kohms). Does one need to be cautious regarding matching it with a preamp?

Roger A. Modjeski

Re: RM200 Input Impedance
« Reply #1 on: 8 Feb 2008, 11:15 pm »
Matching implies that we will make the two impedances the same. This is not what we want at all. The output impedance should be lower than the input impedance of the thing it is driving. If there is a coupling capacitor at the output of the driver it would be good to know the value to determine the 3 dB down point of the the combination.

The idea of matching for optimum power transfer does not apply to anything i can think of in modern life and that includes audio. When one "matches" the load resistor to the generator resistance it will get the most out of the generator but the efficiency will be 50% at that point. When Edison set up the Pearl Street Power Plant he might have gotten even less than 50% but he didn't care how much coal he burned up in the process. Modern generators run at 95 % so they are far from matched.

This is a difficult topic and I welcome any questions to make it perfectly clear to everyone.

I feel the term "mating" or something like that should be used rather than matching.

Roger

pubul57

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Re: RM200 Input Impedance
« Reply #2 on: 9 Feb 2008, 08:49 pm »
Given the relatively low input imedance of the amp, s there a fairly simple way of knowing what preamplifier will or won't mate well with it based on the pre's output impedance? or is it too much a matter of "it depends"?

Eric

Re: RM200 Input Impedance
« Reply #3 on: 11 Feb 2008, 05:18 pm »
Given the relatively low input imedance of the amp, s there a fairly simple way of knowing what preamplifier will or won't mate well with it based on the pre's output impedance? or is it too much a matter of "it depends"?

My question exactly

Roger A. Modjeski

Re: RM200 Input Impedance
« Reply #4 on: 12 Feb 2008, 04:46 am »
There are two equally important issues. If the load is very low impedance the preamp may not have enough current to drive it to the desired voltage. Take for example a power amp with a 10 K ohm input requiring 1 volt RMS (1.4 peak) for full output. In this case .14 mA (peak) is required. Most preamps can do this but some older preamps may not be so happy and will exhibit high distortion or clip. Just because a preamp has low output impedance does not mean it also has high output current. The two have no specific relationship.

I assure you that most modern preamps will drive the 15 K impedance just fine. If anyone wants a higher input impedance that is easily done. The low input impedance allows me to make this one of the lowest noise poweramps on the planet. And that makes me :)

bdp24

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Re: RM200 Input Impedance
« Reply #5 on: 3 Jul 2014, 11:57 pm »
The old rule of thumb has been, all else being equal, the output impedance of a pre should be no more than 10% of the input impedance of the power, right? Most Pre's these days have an output impedance of less than 1500Hz.

Speedskater

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Re: RM200 Input Impedance
« Reply #6 on: 4 Jul 2014, 02:02 pm »
Matching implies that we will make the two impedances the same. This is not what we want at all. The output impedance should be lower than the input impedance of the thing it is driving. If there is a coupling capacitor at the output of the driver it would be good to know the value to determine the 3 dB down point of the the combination.
.......................................
I feel the term "mating" or something like that should be used rather than matching.
Roger 
Maybe someone could make a chart of minimum capacitor values for different input impedance's.

Roger A. Modjeski

Re: RM200 Input Impedance
« Reply #7 on: 4 Jul 2014, 07:46 pm »
Maybe someone could make a chart of minimum capacitor values for different input impedance's.

If you are asking about coupling cap values here is a nice calculator.  http://www.sengpielaudio.com/calculator-XLC.htm 

Simply put in the input impedance in the third box where it says "reactance in ohms", put in the desired low frequency in Hz in the last box and it will give you the capacitance for 3 db down. If you want to be only 0.1 db down at 20 Hz put in 2 Hz.

Since we don't necessarily want to be 3 dB down we might want to find a lesser down point. If you go an octave away from the -3 dB point you will be  down about 1 dB. Another octave away about 0.5 dB. A full decade away will be 0.1 dB down. This is approximate, if you like formulas try this. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roll-off

Here is an example of a typical calculation. A preamp needs an output cap to couple to a 100K ohm input power amp. Lets assume the preamp is of low output impedance compared to the 100K on the power amp and there is no feedback around the cap. The answer is 0.795 uF and you would use 1 uf. I put in 2 Hz for the frequency because that will be the -3 point.

If the output impedance of the driving device is significant it has to be added to the input impedance. Say your preamp is 10K output and your power amp is 47 K input. The total is 57 K ohms. So that number goes into the calculator.

This also works for cable loading at high frequencies. Put in the output impedance of your preamp in the ohms box, the cable capacitance in the cap box and you will get the 3 dB down point for cable loading. This is often significant as some cables have high capacitance even in one meter. You will need to know the capacitance of your cable or be able to measure it. Many DVMs now have a capacitance function. Here is a bit of an extreme but plausible example. Say the preamp is 10,000 ohms (you can't use K ohms in the calculator) and the cable is 1000 pF (0.001 uF, you have to use uF). The -3 dB down point will be 15.9 kHz which will be quite audible. Many cables that people say sound less bright are doing just this. You could do the same thing with a small capacitor across the cable at a much lower cost.

If there is feedback around the coupling cap it will go much lower by the amount of feedback. Our little $450 preamp has a 4 uF output cap with about 12 dB of feedback around it. Into a 47 K ohm load that is 3 dB down at 0.85 Hz. The feedback lowers the 3 dB down point by 4 times to 0.2 Hz. So at 2 Hz ( 10 times higher frequency) we are down only 0.1 dB and at 20 Hz only 0.01 dB. The RM-5 is very close to these values also. Many preamps I have measured are down more than 1 dB at 20 Hz which is not so good.

Any Questions?

bdp24

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Re: RM200 Input Impedance
« Reply #8 on: 5 Jul 2014, 04:29 am »
Here are a couple of related questions: If I want to install a 180Hz 1st order high-pass filter on the input jacks of the RM200 (to use the amp for the panels of the ET LFT-8b speakers, thereby bypassing their internal x/o) , does that require both a resistor and cap, or just one of them? The value(s)? What if I instead decide on 2nd order (to match the x/o of the subwoofer's plate amp)? Can that be done passively on the jacks, or do you advise going active? And does the fact that the RM200 inputs are XLR balanced remove the issue of cable capacitance from the equation? The pre-amp feeding the RM200 has 600 Ohms balanced outputs, with voltage sufficient (2V RMS) to drive the amp to full output.
« Last Edit: 5 Jul 2014, 06:53 am by bdp24 »

Roger A. Modjeski

Re: RM200 Input Impedance
« Reply #9 on: 6 Jul 2014, 10:10 pm »
How about a link to the preamp specs? There is a lot to this question.

Cable capacitance is not an issue.