AudioCircle

Audio/Video Gear and Systems => The HiRez Music Circle => Topic started by: mikeeastman on 20 Oct 2012, 02:13 pm

Title: DSD DACs
Post by: mikeeastman on 20 Oct 2012, 02:13 pm
I'm looking at get a new dac that does native dsd I was looking at the Mytek, but just read about the Benchmark DAC2 and exaSound e20, which can be battery powered a plus for me.  Any recommendation or input would be appreciated.


   Mike
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: Phil A on 20 Oct 2012, 02:28 pm
There's a thread below with a bit of info and more I'm sure.  Ted B has been promising a review of the Mytek vs. Meitner since I had brown hair :green:  http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=106310.0
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: rklein on 20 Oct 2012, 02:42 pm
Hey Phil:

I will make sure I remind Ted of his broken promises AFTER he helps me build by C.A.P.S. V2+ server Monday afternoon and AFTER I safely have his Mytek back in my possession for a 2nd time to try in my system....  :thumb:

Regards,

Randy
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: ted_b on 20 Oct 2012, 03:51 pm
Although there are many DSD DACS now available, or soon to be, i have only heard three inhouse.  here is how I summarize them:

Meitner MA-1 ($7k list) Does all things wonderfully; is a state of the art DAC that is the foundation of my big rig.  This DAC has native 1 bit proprietary chips and converts everything coming in to DSD128.  It presents both DSD and PCM with aplomb.  If I won the lottery I'd get it's bigger brother, the EMM DAC2X simply because of the ceramic analog boards, but it's $15k list.   :o

Mytek Stereo 192-DSD DAC ($1600 List)  Is not only the Swiss Army knife of DSD DACs (USB1, USB 2.0, firewire, toslink, coax, remote volume capability, preamp version has analog inputs, mastering version has pro SDIF inputs) but is the value leader.  it's sound is 90% of the Meitner, and it use the ESS Sabre chip (not my fave) to the best I've heard.  it's pro pedigree shows in its stark neutrality and greta detail.  This DAC is comfortable in all setups EXCEPT those that are already slightly clinical or analytical sounding.  It mixes perfectly with tubes or ss.

Sonore eXD DAC ($1299 list)  This is a very dedicated USB DAC, no other inputs.  But it does USB wonderfully, whether in Linux, OSX or Windows..due to being USB Class 2 audio compliant (as is Meitner).  It is the yang to Mytek's yin.  If your system is warm, tubey or a bit rich already the eXD DAC may be too smooth for you.  I loved it and would have a tough time deciding if I hadn't already committed to the Mytek for my system no. 2.  Either are desert island DACs under $2k.

Playback Designs is another hi-end option.  DCS will finally upgrade their boxes to DSD, and then we have the exaSound, Benchmark, Ayre and a few others on the horizon.    :thumb:
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: PeteG on 20 Oct 2012, 06:11 pm
The Sonore exD is also pretty roomy inside for mods.
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: jtwrace on 20 Oct 2012, 06:13 pm
The Sonore exD is also pretty roomy inside for mods.
Such as?
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: PeteG on 20 Oct 2012, 06:25 pm
Better wiring, output caps, Op-amps, better XLR connectors. Nothing major.


(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=69613)
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: wisnon on 20 Oct 2012, 07:22 pm
Although there are many DSD DACS now available, or soon to be, i have only heard three inhouse.  here is how I summarize them:

Meitner MA-1 ($7k list) Does all things wonderfully; is a state of the art DAC that is the foundation of my big rig.  This DAC has native 1 bit proprietary chips and converts everything coming in to DSD128.  It presents both DSD and PCM with aplomb.  If I won the lottery I'd get it's bigger brother, the EMM DAC2X simply because of the ceramic analog boards, but it's $15k list.   :o

Mytek Stereo 192-DSD DAC ($1600 List)  Is not only the Swiss Army knife of DSD DACs (USB1, USB 2.0, firewire, toslink, coax, remote volume capability, preamp version has analog inputs, mastering version has pro SDIF inputs) but is the value leader.  it's sound is 90% of the Meitner, and it use the ESS Sabre chip (not my fave) to the best I've heard.  it's pro pedigree shows in its stark neutrality and greta detail.  This DAC is comfortable in all setups EXCEPT those that are already slightly clinical or analytical sounding.  It mixes perfectly with tubes or ss.

Sonore eXD DAC ($1299 list)  This is a very dedicated USB DAC, no other inputs.  But it does USB wonderfully, whether in Linux, OSX or Windows..due to being USB Class 2 audio compliant (as is Meitner).  It is the yang to Mytek's yin.  If your system is warm, tubey or a bit rich already the eXD DAC may be too smooth for you.  I loved it and would have a tough time deciding if I hadn't already committed to the Mytek for my system no. 2.  Either are desert island DACs under $2k.

Playback Designs is another hi-end option.  DCS will finally upgrade their boxes to DSD, and then we have the exaSound, Benchmark, Ayre and a few others on the horizon.    :thumb:
And we await the worlds first tubed DSD Dac...I think finally HE may be turning his attention there, as he bought that board I emailed you about.
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: Jazz and Baroque on 23 Oct 2012, 12:58 pm
Ted,

You mentioned "Playback Designs is another hi-end option." 

But the PCIe SOtM tX-USBexp board description says that this DAC will not work with it.   :o

From the Sonore website:

Unsupported Devices

Empirical Audio Offramp - these are based on the M2Tech Hiface v1 OEM board
W4S DAC2 - these are based on the M2Tech Hiface v1 OEM board
Chrod quteHD - these are based on the M2Tech Hiface v1 OEM board
JKSPDIF, JKDAC, JKDAC32 - these are based on the M2Tech Hiface v1 OEM board
Playback Design

Mike
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: wisnon on 23 Oct 2012, 01:26 pm
Even AFTER upgrade as Ted suggested?
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: ted_b on 23 Oct 2012, 01:29 pm
This thread is about DSD DACs.  Yes, with any DAC there might be restrictions.  If you have firewire then Mytek is right now the only non-pro DSD DAC I know of, off the top of my head. 

Norman, what upgrade did I suggest?
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: Jazz and Baroque on 23 Oct 2012, 01:59 pm
Actually, I copied and pasted from the Sonore website the name for the PCIe board, not the PCI board.  I don't understand your comment "not the tx as you mention." 

Also, I am discussing DSD DACs, specifically the use of the Playback Design for DSD with a CAPS v2.  I think it is relevant to this thread.   :D
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: ted_b on 23 Oct 2012, 02:05 pm
Actually, I copied and pasted from the Sonore website the name for the PCIe board, not the PCI board.  I don't understand your comment "not the tx as you mention." 

Also, I am discussing DSD DACs, specifically the use of the Playback Design for DSD with a CAPS v2.  I think it is relevant to this thread.   :D

Sorry, my bad.  Brain fart.  I deleted the SOtM question above.  When I saw "tx" I thought you meant the larger one.  Need more coffee.

I now understand you are looking to build the CAPS I detailed, but your question above seemed like "Ted, why are you including Playback Designs in your list".  :)  Cuz it's a DSD DAC. 
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: jtwrace on 23 Oct 2012, 02:07 pm
I now understand you are looking to build the CAPS
:idea:
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: ted_b on 23 Oct 2012, 02:49 pm
:idea:

Jason,
Sick em boy!!  Get em!!  :)  (I only assumed J&B is looking at the CAPS build based on his question).  But net/net, why build when Jason has a max'd out CAPS V2+ at $700 delivered!!!!!! 

BTW, the SOtM restrictions are only for the PCIe card, and only in Windows.
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: wisnon on 23 Oct 2012, 05:30 pm
This thread is about DSD DACs.  Yes, with any DAC there might be restrictions.  If you have firewire then Mytek is right now the only non-pro DSD DAC I know of, off the top of my head. 

Norman, what upgrade did I suggest?

My bad it sDCS, not PBD that you said would be upgrading..
Playback Designs is another hi-end option.  DCS will finally upgrade their boxes to DSD, and then we have the exaSound, Benchmark, Ayre and a few others on the horizon.   
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: Phil A on 25 Oct 2012, 02:04 pm
The first review of the new Benchmark DAC is up at Everything Audio and it has word length indicators!!! :thumb:  www.everythingaudio.net
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: Phil A on 25 Oct 2012, 04:12 pm
Benchmark's site also has a summary of the features and what is really neat it has HT Bypass so that someone wanting a preamp that does not need tons of inputs but wants quality 2-channel sound can use this feature

New Features
DAC1 customers requested many new features which have been integrated into the new DAC2 HGC:
•Sample Rate Display
•Word Length Display
•More Digital Inputs (5 total)
•More Analog Inputs (2 total)
•More Analog Outputs (3 total)
•Digital Pass Through
•Native DSD Conversion
•Polarity Switch
•Asynchronous USB 2.0
•Driverless Asynchronous USB 1.1
•Home Theater Bypass
•Bi-Directional 12 Volt Trigger
•Power Switch
•Low Power Consumption



- http://www.benchmarkmedia.com/dac/dac2-hgc
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: srb on 25 Oct 2012, 05:46 pm
Some DACs use a digital display to indicate word length and sample rate, but I can see where the use of LEDs simplifies circuitry and eliminates a potential source of noise that some display types might have.
 
At first I was a little confused on the Input LED labeling and then realized it was a clockwise progression and that there are pros and cons to other ordering schemes.
 
I understand that the Sample Rate LEDs use 2 LEDs to indicate 44.1KHz or 48KHz along with another 2 LEDs for 2X or 4X multiplication factor to indicate all of the possible rates.  I was just curious why the silkscreen legends for those are not next to the LEDs like all of the other labeling, but instead offset between the LEDs.  No big deal, but I thought it was a little confusing looking and can someone point out what I'm missing on the reasoning?
 
Steve
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: ted_b on 25 Oct 2012, 07:03 pm
Steve,
I agree that the silkscreening on the sample rate and multiplier leds looks like an afterthought....like the old

(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-mvM7xRGW5M4/T1rdWU_nkfI/AAAAAAAACrc/kI-k-yM-VD8/s1600/Plan-Ahead.jpg)

But I disagree that there are many dacs that show word length (i.e bit depth).  I know of few if any.
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: Phil A on 25 Oct 2012, 07:55 pm
Off the top of my head, I don't know of any DACs that display world length (there are a couple of pro model AD/DA sample rate converters) although there are some that display sampling rate.  You can buy an outboard box to display sampling rate.  John Gatski of Everything Audio is big on that and his relationship with Benchmark (they shared a room with him at the last two Capital Audiofests) probably led to the inclusion.  I ran over his place about a year back to test what I was getting from my Onkyo DPS 6.9 universal as he has an ATI ADAC2 which is an AD/DA sample rate converter which displays word length and were able to determine it puts out 176.4kHz (I already knew that from my DAC) but truncates word length to 16 bits using an HDMI audio de-embedder.  Drawmer, which is another pro company has a similar unit.  The each cost about $1.5k give or take.
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: Russtafarian on 25 Oct 2012, 08:08 pm
Just ordered the new Benchmark DAC.  It has the right feature set to easily integrate into my system.  After getting my SACD collection ripped, I now have over 400 reasons to try it.

This is the most I've ever paid for a digital component.  It has 30 days to impress me or it's going back.

Russ
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: Phil A on 25 Oct 2012, 08:44 pm
Great - let us know how it sounds.
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: kingdeezie on 25 Oct 2012, 09:26 pm
+1, Let us know how you like it.

I wish I would have read this thread sooner. I just ordered a Meitner MA-1, didn't even realize the Benchmark was coming out.  :duh:

Significantly less wallet pain with the Benchmark. Looking forward to your impressions.
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: ted_b on 25 Oct 2012, 09:44 pm
+1, Let us know how you like it.

I wish I would have read this thread sooner. I just ordered a Meitner MA-1, didn't even realize the Benchmark was coming out.  :duh:

Significantly less wallet pain with the Benchmark. Looking forward to your impressions.

I don't expect the B-mark to be the MA-1.   :) (spoken as an MA-1 customer who put the previous B-mark on the low end of any DACs he's heard).  I surely  expect the new Benchmark to be better, but the MA-1 is in a different stratosphere IMHO.  Price wise, too, of course.
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: morganc on 25 Oct 2012, 09:50 pm
Although there are many DSD DACS now available, or soon to be, i have only heard three inhouse.  here is how I summarize them:

Meitner MA-1 ($7k list) Does all things wonderfully; is a state of the art DAC that is the foundation of my big rig.  This DAC has native 1 bit proprietary chips and converts everything coming in to DSD128.  It presents both DSD and PCM with aplomb.  If I won the lottery I'd get it's bigger brother, the EMM DAC2X simply because of the ceramic analog boards, but it's $15k list.   :o

Mytek Stereo 192-DSD DAC ($1600 List)  Is not only the Swiss Army knife of DSD DACs (USB1, USB 2.0, firewire, toslink, coax, remote volume capability, preamp version has analog inputs, mastering version has pro SDIF inputs) but is the value leader.  it's sound is 90% of the Meitner, and it use the ESS Sabre chip (not my fave) to the best I've heard.  it's pro pedigree shows in its stark neutrality and greta detail.  This DAC is comfortable in all setups EXCEPT those that are already slightly clinical or analytical sounding.  It mixes perfectly with tubes or ss.

Sonore eXD DAC ($1299 list)  This is a very dedicated USB DAC, no other inputs.  But it does USB wonderfully, whether in Linux, OSX or Windows..due to being USB Class 2 audio compliant (as is Meitner).  It is the yang to Mytek's yin.  If your system is warm, tubey or a bit rich already the eXD DAC may be too smooth for you.  I loved it and would have a tough time deciding if I hadn't already committed to the Mytek for my system no. 2.  Either are desert island DACs under $2k.

Playback Designs is another hi-end option.  DCS will finally upgrade their boxes to DSD, and then we have the exaSound, Benchmark, Ayre and a few others on the horizon.    :thumb:

Hi Ted,
     Have you heard the Metrum Octave?   Could you compare the Sonore eXD to the Metrum if you have?     Thanks,
Morgan
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: srb on 25 Oct 2012, 10:00 pm
I'm interested in any comparisons between the Mytek Stereo 192 DSD and the Benchmark DAC2 HGC.  Both have a number of similarities:
 
-  Based on ESS Sabre32 9018 DAC
-  Have HT Bypass inputs
-  Have both Analog and Digital volume controls
-  Somewhat same price range (Mytek $1695 MSRP; Benchmark $1995 MSRP)
 
The Mytek seems to have more programmable options for filters, signal routing and function buttons and other features such as volume mute/dim, channel configurations (Mono/L-R/R-L/Mid-Side) and input types (AES/EBU, FireWire).
 
The Benchmark has two vs one analog inputs, word length indicators and comes with a remote (Mytek is remote ready for Apple or Universal remote).  Benchmark also says that its active analog gain control and low-impedance attenuators will make for better matching with power amplifiers.
 
Two very nice DACs with slightly different feature sets, however probably few people will have the opportunity to compare them in the same system as to their perceived sound quality.

Steve
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: ted_b on 25 Oct 2012, 10:03 pm
Hi Ted,
     Have you heard the Metrum Octave?   Could you compare the Sonore eXD to the Metrum if you have?     Thanks,
Morgan

Morgan,
I haven't heard the Metrum Octave, sorry.  It can only do PCM, so I have been subsetting my DAC evals lately to DSD-capable DACs. 
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: Phil A on 25 Oct 2012, 11:04 pm
While, I have not heard the Meitner, previous Benchmark DACs I've heard did not get my attention.  However, given all the features of the new DAC, it is definitely something I might consider to start with and at some point move to a secondary system.
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: kingdeezie on 27 Oct 2012, 02:22 am
If anyone cares, my Meitner DAC came into today. I got it from Perotta Consulting, which as an aside, was a great transaction from beginning to end.

My initial impressions are highly favorable. I feel like a kid on Christmas right now. I sounds leagues better cold outta the box then my previous DAC.

The highs are unbelievable. So crystal clear and detailed, yet so smooth.

If the sound doesn't change one bit, I'll be thrilled.

Havent tried any DSD yet as I just set it up an hour ago and have been just listening to whatever music was on my mind.

I'll update as it progresses if anyone is even remotely interested.
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: wisnon on 27 Oct 2012, 02:42 am
+1, Let us know how you like it.

I wish I would have read this thread sooner. I just ordered a Meitner MA-1, didn't even realize the Benchmark was coming out.  :duh:

Significantly less wallet pain with the Benchmark. Looking forward to your impressions.

Why didnt you consider the Sonore?
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: ted_b on 27 Oct 2012, 03:03 am
If anyone cares, my Meitner DAC came into today. I got it from Perotta Consulting, which as an aside, was a great transaction from beginning to end.

My initial impressions are highly favorable. I feel like a kid on Christmas right now. I sounds leagues better cold outta the box then my previous DAC.

The highs are unbelievable. So crystal clear and detailed, yet so smooth.

If the sound doesn't change one bit, I'll be thrilled.

Havent tried any DSD yet as I just set it up an hour ago and have been just listening to whatever music was on my mind.

I'll update as it progresses if anyone is even remotely interested.

Is it a demo or any hours on it?  Mine took 200 hours or so to really settle in.  I am in awe every day I listen to it.  DSD is sublime.
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: wisnon on 27 Oct 2012, 08:47 am
Ted, I try to tell people that based on your feedback (and I know the lengths you go to to hunt down pure DSD sources) but still people remain skeptical for far too long. I have not heard it yet, but based on your passionate advocacy, I am no doubting Thomas though, I believed you from inception and as proof will digitize my SACD collection in advance.

I expect a plethora of DSD capable DAC options by end 2013. I know you eagerly await multi-channel playback, but I am more eager to see a tube output DSD playback device!
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: rklein on 1 Nov 2012, 05:33 pm
Another DSD candidate...

http://www.whathifi.com/review/chord-electronics-qutehd

Regards,

Randy
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: ted_b on 1 Nov 2012, 06:15 pm
Randy, et al...I'd look at this one VERY seriously:

Auralic Vega

http://cybwiz.blogspot.com/2012/10/auralic-vega-digital-audio-processor.html

DSD64 and DSD128
up to 24/384k PCM playback
Femto clock
$3500 list
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: Russtafarian on 1 Nov 2012, 07:39 pm
My Benchmark DAC 2 arrives today.  Will get it set up tonight and hopefully push some DSD through it via Jriver.

Good thing I ordered when I did.  The first production run sold out in a few days.

Russ
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: wisnon on 1 Nov 2012, 11:07 pm
Randy, et al...I'd look at this one VERY seriously:

Auralic Vega

http://cybwiz.blogspot.com/2012/10/auralic-vega-digital-audio-processor.html

DSD64 and DSD128
up to 24/384k PCM playback
Femto clock
$3500 list

Looks like a killer!
 Hopefully the worlds first tubed DSD Dac is launched before year end.....the ball has been set into motion....
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: Russtafarian on 2 Nov 2012, 01:03 am

(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=70152)


In the house...
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: Big Red Machine on 2 Nov 2012, 01:22 am



In the house...

Wish I could compare this to the PS Audio PWD MKII and the NAD even though neither does DSD.
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: Russtafarian on 5 Nov 2012, 07:17 pm
My DAC2 arrived Thursday and here are my initial impressions.  Feature-wise, it works as advertised.  Inside the DAC2 has a switching power supply and the analog stages use LME 49860 op amps and SMD coupling caps. I connected a PC via USB 2.0, an Oppo BPD 103 via a HDMI to S/Pdif box, and a phono preamp.  Source switching and volume control works just fine from the remote control.

CD, DAD, DVD-V and DVD-A discs play back at native PCM resolutions.  The front panel lights that indicate incoming sampling rate and bit depth is a pretty cool feature.  With the Oppo set to output DSD as PCM, SACDs play back at 24/88.  When playing a SACD, both 16 and 24 bit lights go on.  I asked John Siau why and he told me that both lights on indicates a bit rate between 16 and 24. 

Once the USB 2.0 driver got installed, I was able to play back all my stereo FLAC and DSF files without a problem.  I’m using Win7/Fidelizer/Jriver18 set to WASAPI Event with DoP streaming enabled.  It’s cool to see the 2X and 4X lights go on indicating playback of pure DSD. 

I don’t have a good point of reference for evaluating the sound since I’ve been listening to self-modified Squeezebox and Oppo players for the past six years.  Out of the box the DAC2 sounded bright and incisive.  But after three days of running 24/7 it has settled down to a more balanced tonal presentation.  I don’t really have a handle on the sound yet except to say this is the most resolving digital I’ve heard in my system. 

I listened to a variety of DSF files extracted from my SACD collection and the sound is just stunning.  The DSF tracks uniformly have an organic ease and flow that is just different from PCM.  I would not describe the DAC2 as being overly bright or analytical when playing back DSD.

That’s about it for now.

Russ
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: ted_b on 5 Nov 2012, 07:24 pm
Russ, great stuff.  :)  Ain't DSF (DSD) nice?   8)   I am tempted to split this topic and send your post to a new thread (review of the Benchmark DAC2 HGC DAC).  But I won't cuz it's not fair to those here who have been waiting for your feedback.  Maybe consider adding even more details and starting a review thread.  Nice summary, regardless.  Thanks.
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: wisnon on 5 Nov 2012, 07:27 pm
I was just about to post a similar comment Ted. It was a very nice first impression from Russ.
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: Jon L on 5 Nov 2012, 07:31 pm
Wow, Russ, I didn't figure you for a Benchmark type of guy, but the DAC2 does look quite nice and "reasonably" priced as well  :thumb:

Sabre DAC chips combined with the better LME op-amps will definitely sound highly resolving IME.   
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: Russtafarian on 6 Nov 2012, 12:29 am
Quote
Wow, Russ, I didn't figure you for a Benchmark type of guy

Neither did I, but my treasure trove of DSF files from my SACDs and the preamp functionality pushed me over the edge.  If I need more romance, I'll just strap tube buffer stage to it.
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: Brad on 6 Nov 2012, 01:54 am
Hey guys,

Thanks for this thread.  I had decided about 8 months ago to wait for the DSD DAC market to mature before I bought another DAC.
Looks like things are progressing nicely.

I have had fun listening to vinyl in the mean time  8)
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: jcotner on 7 Nov 2012, 12:43 am
I spent over 30 minutes on the phone with a guy at Mytek talking about the new
DAC. I must say I was very impressed at the effort they put into the new one.

Interesting to note that the Mastering version re-purposes one of the inputs into
a dedicated DSD input. Some of the design decisions were very well thought
out. I kind of get the impression that the DAC2 and this box are very similar
sonically but differ in features.
I like the fact that the Mytek is $400 less also.

I'd still like to see a shootout between the two but haven't heard of one yet.
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: ted_b on 7 Nov 2012, 01:22 am
I spent over 30 minutes on the phone with a guy at Mytek talking about the new
DAC. I must say I was very impressed at the effort they put into the new one.

Interesting to note that the Mastering version re-purposes one of the inputs into
a dedicated DSD input. Some of the design decisions were very well thought
out. I kind of get the impression that the DAC2 and this box are very similar
sonically but differ in features.
I like the fact that the Mytek is $400 less also.

I'd still like to see a shootout between the two but haven't heard of one yet.

I am a very big Mytek fan (as well as Michal and Chebon's field beta test guy) as you know.  The only issue with the mastering version is that SDIF is really only viable via pro tools like Sonoma.  The analog ins are probably a better option, especially if you are going to dare try the Mytek direct to amp (i.e as a preamp).  DSD is easily had via USB or firewire (DoP or ASIO).
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: santacore on 7 Nov 2012, 04:40 am
I just picked up the Lynx Hilo, which with the latest firmware, is promising DSD playback. I've only it had it for a week and have only enjoyed red book and high res. material. So far, it's a fantastic sounding DAC that should scale well in the future.
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: Jon L on 7 Nov 2012, 11:54 pm
I just picked up the Lynx Hilo, which with the latest firmware, is promising DSD playback. I've only it had it for a week and have only enjoyed red book and high res. material. So far, it's a fantastic sounding DAC that should scale well in the future.

Interesting product from Lynx.  It's great it can be powered by AC or DC; Does it come with an external battery pack, or at least battery cable/harness with the right connector for the DAC?  I also assume the USB jack is not for audio USB input but for things like firmware update? 
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: ted_b on 8 Nov 2012, 12:16 am
Interesting product from Lynx.  It's great it can be powered by AC or DC; Does it come with an external battery pack, or at least battery cable/harness with the right connector for the DAC?  I also assume the USB jack is not for audio USB input but for things like firmware update?
No, the USB is USB 2.0 (most reviews say nothing but it seems clear that the USB is not asynch).  USB is how DSD will be provided (DoP v1.1) most likely, although AES-3 and S/PDIF will be available for it too.
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: jtwrace on 8 Nov 2012, 12:28 am
No, the USB is USB 2.0 (most reviews say nothing but it seems clear that the USB is not asynch).  USB is how DSD will be provided (DoP v1.1) most likely, although AES-3 and S/PDIF will be available for it too.

It is asynch.

From Lynx:
The LT-USB is the device that provides the USB connection for the Hilo - so the question would be about the LT-USB (which is already shipping for the Aurora).  The LT-USB uses asynchronous synchronization mode which combined with our SynchroLock technology, gives an extremely low jitter clock for the Hilo and Aurora.

http://www.lynxstudio.com/product_detail.asp?i=58
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: ted_b on 8 Nov 2012, 12:32 am
Thanks Jason.  Two reviews talked about it (USB) getting clock from computer...but they are wrong obviously.  Good!  :)
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: jtwrace on 8 Nov 2012, 12:34 am
Thanks Jason.  Two reviews talked about it (USB) getting clock from computer...but they are wrong obviously.  Good!  :)
I wouldn't have purchased it otherwise.   :wink:
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: jtwrace on 8 Nov 2012, 01:28 am
Also, here is some of the Beta Firmware List:

We will release all of the details later in the week, but here are a few of the confirmed features.

1. ADAT inputs now operational.

ADAT outputs were turned on in Rev 4, now we have up to 8 ADAT inputs available.

When ADAT ins are plugged into the Optical input, Hilo sense this and adds meters and selections to the appropriate pages automatically.

2. DSD Playback is added.
Uses the latest DoP v1.1 standard. Fully tested with Channel D and Audirvana for Mac and JRiver and Merging Technologies on the PC.

3. Mono selection upgraded
Can select Stereo, Left, Right or Sum (with 3dB reduction) on any input channel.

4. Solo Function
For any input channel.

5. 1kHz Test Tone
On any output channel. Completely new screen.
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: srb on 8 Nov 2012, 02:09 am
It's great it [Lynx Hilo] can be powered by AC or DC; Does it come with an external battery pack, or at least battery cable/harness with the right connector for the DAC?

The DC input jack is a 4-pin XLR which is common for video camera lighting equipment.  I assume they expect that many people will use the battery power for mobile monitoring and recording, not just for stationary audiophile pure power.  Most of these battery packs are available in both 12V and 14.4V NiMh or SLA and are often packaged in portable Cordura nylon zippered packs like this Bescor 12V/54WH NiMh pack:
 
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=70545)
 
Steve
 
 
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: santacore on 8 Nov 2012, 03:44 am
Sorry, I'm just catching up on this thread.

Yes, USB is definitely used for audio in/out, plus software updates. No batteries are included with the unit, but it is a cool option. Once I get more settled (recently moved), I will give it a try with battery power.

Overall I've been very impressed with this DAC. The bass is tight and fast, which is an area cheaper DAC's seem to falter. Tone is natural and detail is excellent. Since I've only used it with an external tube headphone amp, I won't comment on width or depth. One day soon I plan to try the ADC section for both home audio and my professional work.

John

Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: weff on 14 Nov 2012, 07:48 am
I've been in hibernation for a while - seems though that there are a lot of very nice DAC's coming onto the market.

I currently have both a Grace Design m903 DAC (192K, no DSD) whichlast year that was supplanted by a Mytek 192K DSD DAC.

I quite like the Mytek - and its DSD128 capability is now working fully as I'm planning on capturing some existing recordings at DSD128 using a Korg MR2000S and I really wanted transparent PCM/DSD playback using the DAC which is primarily why I bought it. 

It seems though that 32 bit/384K PCM + DSD128 is the new standard - which the Mytek partly can't handle (whether it's needed is another thing!).

I am really tempted by some of the new DAC's on the market - the Auralic Vega that ted_b referenced earlier (though that's more than I need) and the new DAC from exaSound which is even better than the Vega  based on their specs - the e20 and it costs a fair bit less too - at CAD$2499-.   

http://www.exasound.com/e20DAC/e20DACOverview.aspx

I am thinking about trialling it and comparing it with the Mytek if I can ... though if I trial it I'll likely end up buying it due to the cost of customs duty (15%) and two-way shipping to Australia.
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: wisnon on 14 Nov 2012, 02:25 pm
Does the e20 from ExaSound have a FEMTO clock?

I am puzzled as to why you think it has better specs than the Auralic:

With Sanctuary Audio Processor as heart, AURALiC introduces several cutting-edge technology for VEGA: Megahertz upsampling algorithm up-samples all PCM music to 1.5MHz in 32bit; Femto Master Clock provides an ultimate clock precision with jitter only 82 femtoseconds(0.082 picosecond). Binding with other AURALiC's patented technologies such as 'ORFEO Class-A module' and discrete 'Purer-Power™ solution', VEGA will bring high resolution music playback experience to climax.

 VEGA supports all high resolution music formats including DXD(352.8KS/s, 384KS/s in 32bit) as well as DSD stream at 2.8224MHz and 5.6448MHz. Five digital inputs include AES/EBU, coaxial(set of two), toslink and USB. The balanced and single-ended analog outputs can connect to power amplifier directly, adjusting volume in digital precision without dynamic loss.
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: rw@cn on 14 Nov 2012, 05:16 pm
There will be a DSD upgrade available for the Invicta DAC in December 2012  :). I was looking forward to it but not so much now. DSD product is scarce and the music I would buy is even scarcer. I guess I'll have to finally work on ripping my 200 or so SACDs. This is not a job that I am looking forward to doing.  :cry:

By the way the Invicta DAC is sweet.
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: wisnon on 14 Nov 2012, 05:23 pm
You dont have to rip for yourself. Tyson has graciously offered to do it for club members here. Contact him and get it arranged. Apparently, pure DSD playback is the beez kneez, so run, dont walk. LoL

I can believe that your DAC is sweet for sure as the improvement rate is accelerating in the DAC world.. I have the latest Lampizator Gen4, L4 (with top notch components) that can do up to 24/192 with a multibit chip and its breaking in as we speak. I am especially proud of it, as I changed out the digital PCB myself for the latest cutting edge version.
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: weff on 14 Nov 2012, 11:04 pm
Does the e20 from ExaSound have a FEMTO clock?

I am puzzled as to why you think it has better specs than the Auralic:

With Sanctuary Audio Processor as heart, AURALiC introduces several cutting-edge technology for VEGA: Megahertz upsampling algorithm up-samples all PCM music to 1.5MHz in 32bit; Femto Master Clock provides an ultimate clock precision with jitter only 82 femtoseconds(0.082 picosecond). Binding with other AURALiC's patented technologies such as 'ORFEO Class-A module' and discrete 'Purer-Power™ solution', VEGA will bring high resolution music playback experience to climax.
b]
The exaSound e20 and the AURALiC VEGA are extremely close in performance - just look at a comparison of more of of the stated specs.

I really don't think you can just look at the master clock jitter and not compare the rest of the performance figures.

e20 Upsampling  Not stated             VEGA Upsampling 1.5 MHz.
e20 master clock jitter 0.13ps          VEGA master clock jitter 0.082ps
e20 THD 0.0002 %                          VEGA THD  0.0003%
e20 Signal/Noise 128dB                   VEGA Signal/Noise 126dB
e20 IM distortion 0.0000079%          VEGA  Not stated
e20 Channel separation 130dB          VEGA  Not stated
e20 Dynamic range Not stated           VEGA  130dB
e20 Inputs 1xcoax,1xtoslink,1xUSB   VEGA  Inputs 2xcoax,1xAES,1xtoslink,1xUSB
e20 Outputs XLR, RCA, headphone    VEGA  Outputs XLR, RCA

I have no doubt that the VEGA IM distortion & VEGA Channel Separation will be close to those of the e20 - but if you look at the THD and Signal/Noise which are equally as important as the master clock jitter then the e20 is "superior".

While exaSound may not have the pedigree of AURALiC the e20 is clearly a well engineered product (as is the VEGA) - and in some aspects the e20 is "superior"  just as in some aspects the VEGA is "superior". The VEGA was designed as an audio processor - hence more inputs and no headphone socket and costs more - while the e20 is a DAC with less inputs and costs less.

I don't know whether the e20 has a FEMTO clock (now a commonplace bit of silicon) - but one has clock jitter 130 fs versus 82 fs - both very small numbers - and both very good figures. It would be interesting to know the e20's upsampling rate so as to compare that with the VEGA.

In the context we are talking about though with these vanishingly small numbers - in the real world the end result any noise/distortion will be so inaudible that a comparison between the VEGA and the e20 should really be a tie.

Both devices support the same capabilities PCM 384K/32 bit and DSD 2.8224MHz and 5.6448MHz - so in hindsight I misspoke - exaSound e20 and the AURALiC VEGA are extremely close in real world performance figures. If you are after an audio processor with more inputs go VEGA - if you are after a DAC with a headphone socket then the e20 is also an excellent choice.
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: Big Red Machine on 15 Nov 2012, 12:46 am
I just picked up the Lynx Hilo, which with the latest firmware, is promising DSD playback. I've only it had it for a week and have only enjoyed red book and high res. material. So far, it's a fantastic sounding DAC that should scale well in the future.

What chipset is in this dac?  I cannot deduce from their website docs.
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: wisnon on 15 Nov 2012, 04:04 pm
The exaSound e20 and the AURALiC VEGA are extremely close in performance - just look at a comparison of more of of the stated specs.

I really don't think you can just look at the master clock jitter and not compare the rest of the performance figures.

e20 Upsampling  Not stated             VEGA Upsampling 1.5 MHz.
e20 master clock jitter 0.13ps          VEGA master clock jitter 0.082ps
e20 THD 0.0002 %                          VEGA THD  0.0003%
e20 Signal/Noise 128dB                   VEGA Signal/Noise 126dB
e20 IM distortion 0.0000079%          VEGA  Not stated
e20 Channel separation 130dB          VEGA  Not stated
e20 Dynamic range Not stated           VEGA  130dB
e20 Inputs 1xcoax,1xtoslink,1xUSB   VEGA  Inputs 2xcoax,1xAES,1xtoslink,1xUSB
e20 Outputs XLR, RCA, headphone    VEGA  Outputs XLR, RCA

I have no doubt that the VEGA IM distortion & VEGA Channel Separation will be close to those of the e20 - but if you look at the THD and Signal/Noise which are equally as important as the master clock jitter then the e20 is "superior".

While exaSound may not have the pedigree of AURALiC the e20 is clearly a well engineered product (as is the VEGA) - and in some aspects the e20 is "superior"  just as in some aspects the VEGA is "superior". The VEGA was designed as an audio processor - hence more inputs and no headphone socket and costs more - while the e20 is a DAC with less inputs and costs less.

I don't know whether the e20 has a FEMTO clock (now a commonplace bit of silicon) - but one has clock jitter 130 fs versus 82 fs - both very small numbers - and both very good figures. It would be interesting to know the e20's upsampling rate so as to compare that with the VEGA.

In the context we are talking about though with these vanishingly small numbers - in the real world the end result any noise/distortion will be so inaudible that a comparison between the VEGA and the e20 should really be a tie.

Both devices support the same capabilities PCM 384K/32 bit and DSD 2.8224MHz and 5.6448MHz - so in hindsight I misspoke - exaSound e20 and the AURALiC VEGA are extremely close in real world performance figures. If you are after an audio processor with more inputs go VEGA - if you are after a DAC with a headphone socket then the e20 is also an excellent choice.

OK, I can live with that, but the Femto clock would be the decider for me. The other specs have a lower correlation with sound quality, IMHO.
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: weff on 16 Nov 2012, 03:36 pm
Post Correction
I went to the actual AURALiC website to look at their gear and checked the VEGA Specs and found that the actual quoted VEGA Signal/Noise is 118dB and not 126dB as is on the Wizard blog (and which I copied here):
...
e20 Signal/Noise 128dB                   VEGA Signal/Noise 118dB
...
So my apologies for providing wrong information - I should have checked earlier to be certain.

It may not change the overall picture that much - but there is a considerable difference between the two units in that aspect and for me at least that is something I take as important.

OK, I can live with that, but the Femto clock would be the decider for me. The other specs have a lower correlation with sound quality, IMHO.
With respect to the master clock jitter - I wonder how low a jitter the human brain can distinguish? - I  have read that some people can distinguish very minute differences in sound ...but does it extend to that low a value ? It would be interesting to find out.

On a related note I emailed Benchmark Media about their new DAC2 HGC DSD DAC as their details on supported DSD capability is not on their website - nor in the user manual. They are apparently in the process of updating both - but the answer was that their DAC can only support DSD64 and not DSD128.

So the short list now of DSD DAC's that support DSD128 is (and please correct me if I'm there are others) is :

AURALiC VEGA,
emmLabs DAC2X,
exaSound e20,
Meitner MA-1, MA-2,
Mytek 192K DSD DAC (DSD128 Windows USB only)
Playback Designs MPD-3, MPD-5

There is no doubting that the higher end gear like the MA-1, MPD-3 and DAC2X are superb - yet I'm finding that some of the more recent entrants like the Mytek, exaSound and the AURALiC  technically meet and perhaps in many aspects challenge the earlier units - but I'd also scarcely declare them better just on that as more experienced ears than mine that have actually heard them side by side have been sure that the MA-1 and similar are still unsurpassed.

Unless there are other DSD128 DAC's out there - if I want a DAC that also supports 384K/32 bit -  I've to choose from this list which leaves only the AURALiC VEGA and exaSound e20 as contenders ( as no other support  PCM 32bit 384k ) - and as by elimination since I need a DAC (with headphone socket) and not so much an audio processor - the next step is to somehow listen to the e20 and compare with the Mytek and see which one I prefer (up to 192K material) so I can validate the "on paper" test with real world listening.

Before committing to even just trialling the e20 I need to see if I can find out any further technical details from exaSound as to how internally the e20 operates such as what is the internal sampling rate?, do they use a Femto master clock in their design currently and possibly can they perhaps have a Femto master clock with lower jitter as an enhancement ?.  I'd like to see some picture of the internals of the e20 too - for curiosity sake.
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: wisnon on 16 Nov 2012, 04:00 pm
You forgot:

Converter types
Sonore/exD
DAC

Digital to analog conversion
 up to 192
DSD64, DSD128
Cost? $1295!
 
=================

Dont sweat the Femto clocking too much (the e20 does not have it by definition, as clock jitter is in the pico range). Here is what a very informed aqcquaintance told me in conversation:


The Femto-clocks may be a little pointless, as the clock signal afterwards passes through IC's that add tens of ps Jitter unavoidably and I possibly see the future more with Android than iOs, but the principle remains.

----------------------------------------------------------------------


Maybe new pathways will be engineered for the Femto clock signals?

-------------------------------------------------------

Strictly speaking in electrical terms, if I remember correctly, Ed Meitner showed that 5mV ground or power supply modulation on a single gate added 10pS of jitter at 8 * Oversampled CD.

In modern SMD IC's the lead-frames and bond wires (basically the bits that connect the chip to the PCB) cause several 10's of millivolt of ground and/or supply line modulation.

There are 1,000's to 10,000's of gates in each IC's.

So even single number pico second jitter on the audio output is essentially impossible, as long as we use the current kind of structures. So, picoclock's, femtoclock's, they do not do any harm, but their levels of phasenoise are so low that other sources of jitter take over.

It sure makes good ad-copy, who knows, the (unnamed DAC) is due for a refresh, maybe we include a femto-clock, even though we know the output jitter will be in the 10's of picoseconds.

Actually, just for fun, the (sub-$1000 unnamed DAC) has jitter so low, I cannot measure it, it is lower than the DAC's noisefloor. The clock driving this DAC has probably around 10 - 30pS...

A Femtoclock would not be able to make any improvement, nor would be a 1ps Clock...

---------------------------------------------------------

Understood. Its more of a do no harm thing.

Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: Audioclyde on 19 Nov 2012, 01:35 am
Any new word on the 'potential' tubed DSD capable dac mentioned as a possibility above?  Ted's assessment of the Meitner has me seriously thinking about moving to a DSD capable dac from my AMR dp-777......but I really like tubes    :D!

Thanks in advance for any info.

Randy
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: weff on 24 Nov 2012, 06:08 pm

Dont sweat the Femto clocking too much (the e20 does not have it by definition, as clock jitter is in the pico range). Here is what a very informed aqcquaintance told me in conversation:

The Femto-clocks may be a little pointless, as the clock signal afterwards passes through IC's that add tens of ps Jitter unavoidably and I possibly see the future more with Android than iOs, but the principle remains.
...
Actually, just for fun, the (sub-$1000 unnamed DAC) has jitter so low, I cannot measure it, it is lower than the DAC's noisefloor. The clock driving this DAC has probably around 10 - 30pS...

A Femtoclock would not be able to make any improvement, nor would be a 1ps Clock...

There's more to a DAC than just the master clock (agreed) - but it depends on the DAC architecture how much influence the master clock jitter contributes to the end result jitter after taking all the factors into account. It's bit obscure discussing the phase noise down to the smd gate level - it's easier to understand if we keep to at least a chip level - for it is as that level that any DAC designer has the ability to influence the overall result. They may be stuck with some of the factors (like the individual chip accuracy) but it is as you say the rest of the DAC infrastructure that affects the result.

In the case of the e20 one of those design choices was to use asynchronous USB - and while its master clock jitter (0.13ps or 130fs) is not quite as low as a so-called femto clock (0.082ps or 82fs) - it can apparently also substitute a femto clock chip in place of their existing master clock chip (the silicon form factor is identical) - but the impact of the overall DAC jitter is yet to be measured. (I queried exaSound as to whether the e20 had or could have a femto master clock and they themselves are in the process of testing that as the silicon femto clocks were not available to purchase when the e20 was being designed.  However as wisnon has indicated (as in the case of the unnamed DAC) the master clock is but one factor and  a variety of factors influence the end result - the following is information provided by one of the e20's designers which I think illustrates the real world factors quite well:

The point of using asynchronous USB is to decouple with a FIFO buffer the DAC from the computer.  The FIFO buffer is inside the e20, and data is retrieved from the buffer and supplied to the ESS ES 9018 DAC chip in a separate process that is absolutely independent from the computer and the USB transport.

The factors that influence timing precision for the e20 DAC are:
•   The precision of the master clock – Jitter rating, ppm rating, temperature stability etc
•   The power supplies for the DAC and the clocks
•   The topology of the PCB
•   Noise levels within the DAC enclosure (there is no power transformer inside)
•   The precision of the DAC chip

The factors that e20 is immune against are :
•   Operating system timing inaccuracy caused by non-real-time processing of tasks
•   CPU load – to the point where the USB stream is interrupted for longer than the amount of data in the buffer.
•   Player software jitter
•   USB interruptions – same as CPU load
•   Computer noise on the USB output – if the USB is operational and capable of delivering data
•   Quality of USB cable
 
End of provided information (edited for relevance) .)

As an electrical engineer by profession I am a great believer in actual measurements. So DAC's like the Benchmark Media DAC2 HGC and the exaSound e20 that are less about marketing copy and actually backup their listed specifications with real world performance measurements are going to find favour with me before even brand name DAC's that list capabilities and no actual performance results. I want to be able to compare tangible measurements not subjective (essentially meaningless) audiophile adverbials.
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: ted_b on 24 Nov 2012, 06:37 pm
Weff,
Welcome to AC.  I appreciate your engineering perspective, but you may not get great feedback on a thread like this if you call audiophile listening feedback "meaningless".   

I find that the recipe for great sound can often include a source or piece of equipment that balances or synergizes with the rest of the system.  Sometimes that product is not the best at publicizing its test bench performances.  When you find something that tests well AND sounds great you usually have real long-term success.  Conversely, I have heard plenty of supposedly well-engineered products that sound lifeless and amusical, regardless of what system they are introduced into.
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: jcotner on 24 Nov 2012, 07:09 pm
OK I fit into the engineer category (electrical,firmware,FPGA) and I certainly appreciate the
weight that an engineer would likely give a spec sheet.

But I also have been doing recording work as far back as the late 70's and to me how it
sounds has got to be just as important.

As an example, I have done some power supply work, and I'm not really a power supply
guy. So I can do this great design on paper and then a true power supply guy will
just trounce me in the implementation.
Same thing with DACs. A seasoned designer knows how to spend the right amount of
effort to control board noise, clock jitter, etc. and come up with a great DAC for the
price point.

But what really matters to me, and likely many others, is how you feel after you listen
to a DAC. It's kind of like a wife or child, to you they are the finest in the world, but
maybe to others that's not the case. It's contextual and perceptive.
By all means use the specs to get you in the ballpark but I would never decide on a
piece of audio gear purely bases on specs and not factor in others subjective opinions
on sound and my own opinions of how the gear sounds in my environment.
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: weff on 25 Nov 2012, 02:41 am
The problem I have with the "adverbials" is that they are by strangers and as you both have stated sound is so subjective.

What may sound good to one of you could sound flat and lifeless to another - whatever that is supposed to mean - and let's restrict this to DSD DAC's - the function of which is to accurately convert digital to analog sound - the more accurate a conversion the better the DAC. That should correlate with better sound - but I have seen enough on this and similar forums to know other factors are in play as "sound" in part is psychology - so is in part subjective.

I would not argue against that - just to me DAC conversion accuracy is essential - and I want basic performance results of any DAC - clock jitter, frequency response, THD, IMD, Channel separation, Signal-to-Noise ratio etc. - the basic measurements any DAC company should supply.  Placing an expensive price tag against a DAC should not preclude a company from at least providing those essential measurements. Then provide whatever adverbials they want.

Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: wisnon on 25 Nov 2012, 10:48 pm
Any new word on the 'potential' tubed DSD capable dac mentioned as a possibility above?  Ted's assessment of the Meitner has me seriously thinking about moving to a DSD capable dac from my AMR dp-777......but I really like tubes    :D!

Thanks in advance for any info.

Randy
The Lampizator said last week on his FB page that he was 90% complete with his prototype. I will push for updates on my side.
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: wisnon on 25 Nov 2012, 11:00 pm
The problem I have with the "adverbials" is that they are by strangers and as you both have stated sound is so subjective.

What may sound good to one of you could sound flat and lifeless to another - whatever that is supposed to mean - and let's restrict this to DSD DAC's - the function of which is to accurately convert digital to analog sound - the more accurate a conversion the better the DAC. That should correlate with better sound - but I have seen enough on this and similar forums to know other factors are in play as "sound" in part is psychology - so is in part subjective.

I would not argue against that - just to me DAC conversion accuracy is essential - and I want basic performance results of any DAC - clock jitter, frequency response, THD, IMD, Channel separation, Signal-to-Noise ratio etc. - the basic measurements any DAC company should supply.  Placing an expensive price tag against a DAC should not preclude a company from at least providing those essential measurements. Then provide whatever adverbials they want.
Why the rant? Nobody is forcing you to go against your principles, if you are attracted to the E30 then please go check it out and report back. We would all welcome that. More choice is good.
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: HT cOz on 25 Nov 2012, 11:42 pm
This looks like an interesting option for the DIY folks. http://www.rigisystems.net/index.php/usbpalen.html
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: weff on 26 Nov 2012, 02:18 am
Why the rant? Nobody is forcing you to go against your principles, if you are attracted to the E30 e20 then please go check it out and report back. We would all welcome that. More choice is good.

Sorry ... I guess that was a bit of a rant  - ... it just frustrates me that not all DAC companies provide the basic measurements ...but I'll try and restrain myself in future  :duh:

In any event I'm finding it difficult to justify another dac - whether e20 or other as the Mytek 192 DSD DAC I have covers all the basic needs currently and higher bitrate media whether DSD or PCM isn't very common. 

It's the "I want a new toy" syndrome I've got to stop.

This looks like an interesting option for the DIY folks. http://www.rigisystems.net/index.php/usbpalen.html

I think this is the underlying module within both the Mytek 192 DSD DAC and Weiss DAC202 if I'm not mistaken as they both use elements of the Rigisystems drivers as part of their code.
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: wisnon on 26 Nov 2012, 07:41 am
Weff, You already have a Mytek????

Then you dont need to change anything in a hurry (its a fine DSD and PCM DAC). Only a fundamentally different approach should perk you up, eg a tubed DSD DAC.

Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: HT cOz on 28 Nov 2012, 01:55 am
Here is an idea for a cool project that would cost just a few hundred bucks!

The Hifimediy Dac accepts DSD inputs using the CS4398 chip which has a direct DSD path on the chip.  Here are some photos

(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=71486)

Notice the DSD Jumper which allows DSD mode to be turned on
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=71487)

Next an inexpensive DSD USB input like this could be incorporated for a nice starter DSD Dac! http://amanero.com/

(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=71488)

Could be interesting! 
PS I already have the DAC  :lol:  :thumb:
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: Ric Schultz on 28 Nov 2012, 02:35 am
Back around 2000 I made a non oversampling DAC using the 18 bit stereo Analog Devices AD1865 chip.  One stereo DAC per channel paralleled and a simple op amp for I-V and then right out.  The thing was amazing!  I went on to Audio Asylum and told everyone they had never heard PCM.....and that using a high rez pcm signal into paralleled 24 bit PCM1704s (using non oversampling, of course) and a simple class A output stage would give us digital sound way beyond what we thought. 

Well, no one every seemed to want to go that way.....However, we now have the Totaldac D1.  This French DAC is not only non oversampling but uses a completely discrete 24 bit R to R DAC using 100 nude .01% Vishay resistors ($13.00 each).  The press on it so far is that it might beat anything.  Certainly Srajan at 6 moons thought it was way beyond the $7000 Meitner MA-1 or anything else he has heard.

So, IF this thing does PCM better than anything (yet to be determined, but obviously top notch)......how would it do decoding DSD downsampled to 24/192 versus playing the DSD file directly through the $15,500 Meitner DAC2X?  Could it be close?  Could the Totaldac D1 be better?  We can only guess at this point.  No doubt the "pure DSD" fanboys will say "no way, Jose".  But we won't know till someone does a clear A/B.  I think the Totaldac guy will give you a trial run....so one of you Meitner DAC2X owners should order one from France and do an A/B for us all....he he.....why not?

Interesting times.....digital just keeps getting better and better.

http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/totaldac3/1.html
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: wisnon on 28 Nov 2012, 04:05 pm
Hi Ric,

I recently got a Lampi gen 4 L4 tube Dac. It too is R2R multibit with no oversampling doing up to 24/192. I have not had the chance to run it it yet or compare to the older Lampi I had which was DS 32/384 specs. All pro reviews on the Lampi have been done on the older Gen 3, none so far on the Gen 4.

I am not sure that it will beat pure DSD properly implemented, but will soon find out as a tubed DSD DAC will soon be born!
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: ss44 on 1 Dec 2012, 05:35 am
I have recently started "acquiring" SACD ISO's and ripping them onto DVD-R's. I have a pretty good system that is extremely revealing. I have found very bid differences between players sound on SACD's!

I have gone from entry Sony, to DENON DBP, to Primare BD32. The Primare completely blows away everything I have heard. But, I do not need the Multichannel or Video section...

That is what leads me to this topic.

I know everyone here is discussing DAC's, but is there not a DSD ISO streamer? Wouldn't this be the most efficient method. Something like a DSD version of the PS Audio Perfect Wave/Lens or Bryston Digital Player...

Does anything like this exist yet?

SS
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: ted_b on 4 Dec 2012, 03:37 pm
I have recently started "acquiring" SACD ISO's and ripping them onto DVD-R's. I have a pretty good system that is extremely revealing. I have found very bid differences between players sound on SACD's!

I have gone from entry Sony, to DENON DBP, to Primare BD32. The Primare completely blows away everything I have heard. But, I do not need the Multichannel or Video section...

That is what leads me to this topic.

I know everyone here is discussing DAC's, but is there not a DSD ISO streamer? Wouldn't this be the most efficient method. Something like a DSD version of the PS Audio Perfect Wave/Lens or Bryston Digital Player...

Does anything like this exist yet?

SS

There are many players (J River, Foobar, Audirvana Plus) that will play the ISO's directly.  by the way, the Bryston BDA-1 is NOT a streamer, it's a Linux music server.  The only thing it may stream is streaming radio, but not sure it does that. 
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: ted_b on 4 Dec 2012, 03:39 pm
I have the Exasound E20 DSD DAC inhouse.  I hope to give it a mini-review soon.  It is playing from my Win 8 CAPS V2+ server and all is well (all sample rates including DSD via ASIO).  I promised the designer (George Klissarov ) that I would try it sans preamp too.  I'm using J River with Exasounds's own ASIO driver.
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: jamesg11 on 5 Dec 2012, 12:53 am
I have the Exasound E20 DSD DAC inhouse.  I hope to give it a mini-review soon.  It is playing from my Win 8 CAPS V2+ server and all is well (all sample rates including DSD via ASIO).  I promised the designer (George Klissarov ) that I would try it sans preamp too.  I'm using J River with Exasounds's own ASIO driver.
Ted, can you remind me where your description of your CAPS V2 ETC is to be found. Thanks.
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: ted_b on 5 Dec 2012, 12:57 am
Jamesg11,
It is here:  http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=110542.0
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: rhandmj on 7 Dec 2012, 12:42 am
I have the Chord QuteHD DAC, full 24/192 and unconverted DSD over USB, or 384 optical. Superb DAC. Can't recommend it too highly.
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: wisnon on 7 Dec 2012, 12:36 pm
Any new word on the 'potential' tubed DSD capable dac mentioned as a possibility above?  Ted's assessment of the Meitner has me seriously thinking about moving to a DSD capable dac from my AMR dp-777......but I really like tubes    :D!

Thanks in advance for any info.

Randy

Randy, this is from the Lampi Facebook page:

I will be ready to ship the amps abroad in about 2 weeks. I made special new packing boxes and special 115 V transformers too. No corners have been cut anywhere, especially in safety and mechanical integrity of such monsters.
 
I will release AC filter conditioner box (previously named SILK) (VERY GOOD ONE) next week. retail price 1000 Euro.
 
The DSD tube DAC is around the corner to be released early 2013 if the world will not end.
 
The Level 6 DAC will be released over this weekend. It is not "better than Level5 in a linear progress fashion". It will be different. Retail price 4900 Euro plus VAT in EU.
 
There will be also an introduction of a LAN-DAC very shortly with ethernet cable input. Price is 300 Euro above the all Levels price
.
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: wisnon on 7 Dec 2012, 12:38 pm
I have the Chord QuteHD DAC, full 24/192 and unconverted DSD over USB, or 384 optical. Superb DAC. Can't recommend it too highly.

Can you say more about this DAC? It is the only I know of offereing 24/192 on Toslink. How does native DSD files vis the Qute compare to SACD  disc playback?
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: Audioclyde on 7 Dec 2012, 01:24 pm
Wisnon, thanks for the heads up--guess I need to 'friend'/follow the Lampi FB page--I rarely get on there.

Still not certain I would go that route though; of course cost might be an issue, but more importantly is that a few audio friends with tastes similar to mine have moved from Lamp DACs. I'd like to hear one for myself though, that's for sure.

Randy
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: wisnon on 7 Dec 2012, 02:01 pm
Ask Playin the Blues...he is on his 4th Dac. The latest one is balanced. i am on my 2nd and this is 4th Gen, with the multibit chip.

Many people churn and burn DAC and other components and often its jumping from one fad to another. For me, the Lampi sounds very analog and "creamy", while still being detailed. Of the cohort of guys that got Lamp Dacs with me, 3 of 4 still have their Dacs and the one who did is always looking to trade up. Not sure if he is not just trading for trading sake though....please read the Gpointaudio review and the www.monoandstereo.com review for a sound evaluation.

I run a SS system, so I need a tube component like the Lampi or AMR for balance.
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: HT cOz on 7 Dec 2012, 03:48 pm
Here is an idea for a cool project that would cost just a few hundred bucks!

The Hifimediy Dac accepts DSD inputs using the CS4398 chip which has a direct DSD path on the chip.  Here are some photos

(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=71486)

Notice the DSD Jumper which allows DSD mode to be turned on
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=71487)

Next an inexpensive DSD USB input like this could be incorporated for a nice starter DSD Dac! http://amanero.com/

(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=71488)

Could be interesting! 
PS I already have the DAC  :lol:  :thumb:


I purchased the Amerno to go with the Hifimediy Dac. I will post about it when I get it going.

Thanks,
Robert
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: rhandmj on 7 Dec 2012, 03:57 pm
Reply to Wisnon:

The Chord is magnificent. I am using JRiver build 18, which seems to solve a problem with clicking/popping between DSD tracks that apparently is a buffering issue. I was never a great fan of SACD, but I have to say that DSD directly is much better. DSD downloads will never be a market player, and I agree with this, as 24/192 at this point in my exploration sounds better, but the character of DSD downloaded files is distinctly different, and I need to hear more. My opinion will surely evolve.

The real thing about the Chord is the very unique buffering and processing that is very proprietary, worth looking into. Looks cool too.
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: wisnon on 7 Dec 2012, 06:29 pm
Thanks Rhandmj,

For DSD files, you can rip SACDs via PS3 now. Even better, guys here like Tyson have offered to rip the discs for you, if its too complicated to hunt down an old PS3. I need to start ripping again, as I have only done about 20 out of 150 discs I have. The thing with DSD is that you have to ensure that the files was recorded NATIVELY in DSD for it to sound best. PCM files converted to DSD will sound WORSE than the PCM equivalent. The trick is to know the chain of custody of any particular recording and play it back in the native format for optimal results, even if that mean 16/44 RCBD!

Good to hear that DSD on the Qute sounds good, because the only review I saw of this was lukewarm, BUT< the reviewer used PCM recorded DSD files, so he apparently did not understand that his trial was invalid for evaluation purposes.

Finally, actually DSD downloads may actually beat PCM as market leader in the HiRez segment in the medium term, BECAUSE THE EQUIVALENT DSD FILE IS SMALLER, and so easier to store and faster to download.
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: rhandmj on 8 Dec 2012, 01:58 pm
You are right, only native DSD is in my experience worthwhile, but what I see in the SACD marketplace is rather few native DSD recordings or transfers, far more PCM conversions, and for this reason, I feel that DSD has little future in the hi-res download world. What I am seeing as a trend is transfers at 24/192 intended to eventually feed the download market, labels are building up their catalogs of hi-res files, then converting those files to DSD for a last physical release. In these cases, my humble opinion is wait for the 24/192 file - it will be better.
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: ted_b on 8 Dec 2012, 02:17 pm
You are right, only native DSD is in my experience worthwhile, but what I see in the SACD marketplace is rather few native DSD recordings or transfers, far more PCM conversions, and for this reason, I feel that DSD has little future in the hi-res download world. What I am seeing as a trend is transfers at 24/192 intended to eventually feed the download market, labels are building up their catalogs of hi-res files, then converting those files to DSD for a last physical release. In these cases, my humble opinion is wait for the 24/192 file - it will be better.

Of the approx 7200 SACDS, there are 2800 native DSD recordings, and another 1000 analog-to-DSD masterings.  (Note: of the remaining,, some are unidentifiable, and some are PCM recordings that don't exist in the hirez PCM catalogs.  The final subcategory, PCM-to-DSD recordings that also exist in the hirez PCM disc or download world, like Robert's nice BIS SACD recordings, are clearly wastes of time to find and rip, and better to listen to in available PCM...assuming your DAC handles one as good as the other).  Anyway.....that's a "boatload" of new hirez discoveries.  Why not go after them?
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: rhandmj on 8 Dec 2012, 04:56 pm
Ted, I am interested in your view on this - those BIS recordings at 24/44, or more recently a few at 24/96 transferred to DSD I am curious about - why would anyone not just listen to them in 24/44 as they were recorded? I can't see an advantage to DSD here. Am I missing something?
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: ted_b on 8 Dec 2012, 05:30 pm
Ted, I am interested in your view on this - those BIS recordings at 24/44, or more recently a few at 24/96 transferred to DSD I am curious about - why would anyone not just listen to them in 24/44 as they were recorded? I can't see an advantage to DSD here. Am I missing something?

That's EXACTLY what I said above. 
Robert's nice BIS SACD recordings, are clearly wastes of time to find and rip, and better to listen to in available PCM...
You are not missing anything.   If recorded in PCM, let me hear it in PCM.  If recorded in DSD, let me hear it in DSD.  Analog?  Well, I happen to like what DSD mastering can do for analog, but whatever.

BTW, Robert's BIS label recorded 9 SACDs in DSD, then went to 24/44 (for financial reasons, mainly).  He later went to 24/96.  Unless you want the multichannel content, buy the downloads in native PCM.  Of course, if you already own the discs, then you have a choice to make; probably ripping them to DSD makes some sense, as opposed to buying them again online.  It's not like they suck in DSD.   What's further nice about Robert's stuff is that the eclassical website has many sales (like now, his daily 50% disc)  and his list prices are very very reasonable.  Moreover, you can download the selections/movements/tracks you like for almost pennies.
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: wisnon on 8 Dec 2012, 05:53 pm
Plus the 9 native DSD BIS recordings are worthwhile to have in and of themselves!

I agree Ted, Analog to DSD is GREAT.
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: rw@cn on 8 Dec 2012, 11:09 pm
Ted, I am interested in your view on this - those BIS recordings at 24/44, or more recently a few at 24/96 transferred to DSD I am curious about - why would anyone not just listen to them in 24/44 as they were recorded? I can't see an advantage to DSD here. Am I missing something?

Is there a listing somewhere?
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: wisnon on 9 Dec 2012, 12:11 am
Tchaikovsky Symph no 1 and No 6 (Jarvi)
Grieg: Sigurd Jorsalfar and Norwegian Dances and Piano concerto In Autumn -Ruud
Harvard composers: Mendelssohn string Quartet
Mendelssohn String Quintets/Mann
Prieres sans paroles -Hardenberger
Takemitsu: How slow the wind-Otaka

I just managed to score the last one used. When I checked months ago it was too expensive.


Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: ted_b on 30 Dec 2012, 01:41 am
Well, Norman, looks like Lucasz won't have the worlds first DSD tube DAC after all...
http://www.lector-audio.com/digitube-dsd.htm
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: wisnon on 30 Dec 2012, 10:43 am
Yeah,

If you snooze, you lose...

His prototype wont be ready before next week.

Any idea about pricing?
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: dlbeck on 2 Jan 2013, 12:21 am
I have the Exasound E20 DSD DAC inhouse.  I hope to give it a mini-review soon.  It is playing from my Win 8 CAPS V2+ server and all is well (all sample rates including DSD via ASIO).  I promised the designer (George Klissarov ) that I would try it sans preamp too.  I'm using J River with Exasounds's own ASIO driver.

Ted - any opinion on this DAC yet?  Looking forward to your review?

David
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: Phil A on 2 Jan 2013, 12:26 am
Ted - any opinion on this DAC yet?  Looking forward to your review?

David

Here - http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=112169.msg1165521#msg1165521
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: ted_b on 2 Jan 2013, 12:28 am
Ted - any opinion on this DAC yet?  Looking forward to your review?

David

As Phil points out (scroll to top of Phil's link) I have a full review of it here on AC.  Search is your friend.  :)
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: dlbeck on 2 Jan 2013, 12:49 am
Sorry, was expecting it on the same thread.  Too quick on the trigger.  Thanks.
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: Phil A on 2 Jan 2013, 12:57 am
Sorry, was expecting it on the same thread.  Too quick on the trigger.  Thanks.

That's OK.  I just look at it and follow it often (and bug Ted sometimes when he gets behind) as I'm probably going to make the plunge within a few months.  I may end up with the e20.  We'll see what CES brings too.
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: wisnon on 2 Jan 2013, 11:00 pm
New DSD Dac to be unveiled at CES next week:

http://www.digitalaudioreview.net/2013/01/s-o-t-m-to-debut-dsd-capable-dacpre-amplifier-at-ces-2013/
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: ted_b on 2 Jan 2013, 11:46 pm
New DSD Dac to be unveiled at CES next week:

http://www.digitalaudioreview.net/2013/01/s-o-t-m-to-debut-dsd-capable-dacpre-amplifier-at-ces-2013/

Jesus mentioned it.  I will visit them and give my feedback.  :)
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: Russtafarian on 3 Jan 2013, 12:14 am
Ted,

I'd like to meet up with you at CES just to say hi and chat.  PM me the best way to get hold of you.  Thanks.

Russ
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: ted_b on 3 Jan 2013, 02:06 am
Pm sent.   :thumb:
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: wisnon on 7 Jan 2013, 01:19 pm
Chord Qute HD review:

http://www.audiostream.com/content/chord-electronics-chordette-qutehd-dsd-dac
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: ted_b on 7 Jan 2013, 01:36 pm
Jesus (Sonore US) is putting a DSD hardware/software database togther, and I am helping him. 

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AgVhKcl_3lHfdFVyenBBNjNpQ2lieG81WGpqQTNfVUE

We may add columns that address remote volume, etc.
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: wisnon on 7 Jan 2013, 03:51 pm
Very cool.

Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: Phil A on 7 Jan 2013, 05:00 pm
Very cool.

+1! :thumb:  Thanks, Ted.  Probably over the next few weeks I'll be deciding on something.
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: catastrofe on 7 Jan 2013, 11:45 pm
Jesus (Sonore US) is putting a DSD hardware/software database togther, and I am helping him. 

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AgVhKcl_3lHfdFVyenBBNjNpQ2lieG81WGpqQTNfVUE

We may add columns that address remote volume, etc.

Jesus is the man!  He is continually driving computer based audio to the next level.
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: gman on 8 Jan 2013, 04:54 am
Jesus (Sonore US) is putting a DSD hardware/software database togther, and I am helping him. 

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AgVhKcl_3lHfdFVyenBBNjNpQ2lieG81WGpqQTNfVUE

We may add columns that address remote volume, etc.

That's AWESOME! Thanks for putting this together!  :thumb:
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: audio.bill on 8 Jan 2013, 02:08 pm
Ted, for the database both of the Playback Designs DACs support standard and double speed DSD via USB.
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: ted_b on 8 Jan 2013, 08:29 pm
Ted, for the database both of the Playback Designs DACs support standard and double speed DSD via USB.

Thx. Will make change when I get to my hotel

Edit:  United screwed up my connections for the second time today, missed a second flight in a row today due to paper snafu, so I am still airport bounding LA (yes, CLE to Vegas and somehow now stuck in LA!!)  Made the changes.  5 DAC requires USB-x, right?
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: wisnon on 9 Jan 2013, 11:21 pm
Is this in the list?

Luxman DA-06 USB DAC
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: ted_b on 14 Jan 2013, 01:26 pm
Is this in the list?

Luxman DA-06 USB DAC
We need to add it I think.  Also, I just added that the Resonnessence Invicta just joined the DSD club with its release of v4.0 of firmware, allowing DSF and DIFF via SD card, and DoP via USB.
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: wisnon on 14 Jan 2013, 04:01 pm
And Ayre joins in March!
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: jcotner on 22 Jan 2013, 01:52 am
New DAC time. 15% off did the trick. New Hilo is on the way. To me the Hilo just has so much functionality plus the A/D (which is not for everybody). Besides listening to DSD stuff, which I now will have to rip to files, I will use this quite a bit in my studio and have been waiting to get this calibre of converter for a long time. Hope it's the right choice.
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: Phil A on 22 Jan 2013, 02:34 am
Looks interesting.  I've been slowly getting my act together and will be able to listen to DSD in a bit (just have many things going on) as I got a lightly used Meitner MA-1 that I picked up Friday.  Only had time to listen to a few SACDs at 24/88.2 via the HDMI audio de-embedder, but it sounds wonderful.
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: ted_b on 22 Jan 2013, 02:40 am
Way to go Phil!  :thumb:  Joining the MA-1 club!!  Sounds like its broken in, cuz it takes a few hundred hours.  I can't wait to hear your comments on pure DSD through it.   8)

Jcotner, Jason loves his Hilo.  Let us know if you need help getting DSD files ripped, etc. 
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: Audioclyde on 22 Jan 2013, 02:45 am
Phil & Ted, I couldn't resist adding that I've had my Meitner MA-1 for a couple of weeks now (it was used also), and I am really, really liking it.  I was afraid I'd miss the 'tube' virtues of my other dac, but the MA-1 sounds nice, full & sweet.  I almost can't make myself listen to anything but DSD files!

Randy
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: ted_b on 22 Jan 2013, 02:48 am
Phil & Ted, I couldn't resist adding that I've had my Meitner MA-1 for a couple of weeks now (it was used also), and I am really, really liking it.  I was afraid I'd miss the 'tube' virtues of my other dac, but the MA-1 sounds nice, full & sweet.  I almost can't make myself listen to anything but DSD files!

Randy

 :banana piano: :beer: :dance:

P.S.  And no, I haven't tracked down the fuse yet Randy.  :)
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: Audioclyde on 22 Jan 2013, 02:55 am
Ted, some time I have to make to another audio show and if you attend I definitely owe you a cold beverage of your choice (or three)!  But to keep us on topic, I'm enjoying some ripped SACD's that I kind of just 'passed over' briefly, even at the 24/176 pcm conversions....the natural organic sound & detail is there in spades with the MA-1 (and in my setup it is a soundstaging champ, and it think it's incredible resolution & detail helps).

I hadn't even thought about the fuse rolling, but someday. :D

Randy
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: Phil A on 22 Jan 2013, 02:56 am
Way to go Phil!  :thumb:  Joining the MA-1 club!!  Sounds like its broken in, cuz it takes a few hundred hours.  I can't wait to hear your comments on pure DSD through it.   8)

Jcotner, Jason loves his Hilo.  Let us know if you need help getting DSD files ripped, etc.

Ted - was told it had about 250 hours on it and I've put a few more so it probably has about 300.  I've got files and I just ordered a couple of Oyen Digital 3TB hard drives.  It may be a couple of months before I really get to listen to DSD.  Busy building a retirement place in FL (I'll be there in a bit over a year but it is probably a couple of months away from completion and I've been back and forth a few times and probably will be a couple of more until the close) and have not been able to listen to things as much as I'd like. Had to fly out XMAS day so I could be there when they started the wiring.  Was going to buy the Exasound (even bought the USB adapter at Monoprice) and just changed my mind. 
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: jcotner on 22 Jan 2013, 04:02 am
Jcotner, Jason loves his Hilo.  Let us know if you need help getting DSD files ripped, etc.

I know. I PMd Jason a time or two regarding the Hilo.
Seems likes we are a minority. I'm sure many don't need the A/D section.

And I will need help doing my SACDs but have read the thread on the guys doing that.
I kind of though they may be getting tired doing all those rips!
I really should of bought a PS back before they got so popular for ripping.
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: ted_b on 22 Jan 2013, 04:13 am
I know. I PMd Jason a time or two regarding the Hilo.
Seems likes we are a minority. I'm sure many don't need the A/D section.

And I will need help doing my SACDs but have read the thread on the guys doing that.
I kind of though they may be getting tired doing all those rips!
I really should of bought a PS back before they got so popular for ripping.

I'm the guy that started it.  :)  Yes, getting a bit tired, but friends like Tyson and others whom I helped get going; they are now ripping hundreds for other folks.  And I keep lending a hand when I can.  Let me know if you want my guide and links.  Thx
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: jcotner on 22 Jan 2013, 04:39 am
Let me know if you want my guide and links.  Thx

I do and I understand there is a list of titles already done so as to avoid duplicate effort.
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: jcotner on 24 Jan 2013, 06:03 am
The Hilo came in and I got it set up first on the PC. Mac in a few days. Pulled out my trusty old (not the new garbage) Sony MDR-V6 and all I can say is WOW!!! This is a heck of a box. I've done a little listening to some FLAC and also using my Rhapdosy subscription. What a pleasure. Looking forward to playing some DSD material and getting these on my monitor speakers and power amp. If a fellow had the cash I'd be hard pressed to see how you could beat the Hilo. I'm sure I would have liked the Mytek especially being less money, but being able to get the ADC in the same package was the Cat's meow.
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: wisnon on 18 Feb 2013, 12:29 pm
Another great Qute review: http://www.mcleans.info/information/news.do?newsId=6636
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: Maxvla on 23 Feb 2013, 05:07 am
New DSD DAC imminently releasing, the Matrix X-Sabre and at $1099. I have one coming for review in a few days, but currently don't have any DSD. I'll have to get some free samples or buy an album to test with, and when I get a chance, find a PS3 to rip my SACDs.

http://matrix-digi-usa.com/index.php?route=product/product&path=63&product_id=63
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: wisnon on 23 Feb 2013, 08:46 am
Excellent specs.

This seems a bargain for the price. Only feature missing is double rate DSD.
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: Maxvla on 23 Feb 2013, 09:50 am
Excellent specs.

This seems a bargain for the price. Only feature missing is double rate DSD.
DSD×64 (2.8224MHz) / DSD×128 (5.6448MHz)

??
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: wisnon on 23 Feb 2013, 12:03 pm
DSD 128 is what I meant and I looked again and it does it. My bad.

Yup, this does look like a VERY appealing solution for the price. Great find!
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: ted_b on 23 Feb 2013, 02:32 pm
New DSD DAC imminently releasing, the Matrix X-Sabre and at $1099. I have one coming for review in a few days, but currently don't have any DSD. I'll have to get some free samples or buy an album to test with, and when I get a chance, find a PS3 to rip my SACDs.

http://matrix-digi-usa.com/index.php?route=product/product&path=63&product_id=63

Thanks for the heads up.  I will have one coming soon, too.  This is a new price point for DXD and DSD128.  Looks interesting.  Wonder how it will compare to E20, Sonore/eXD and Mytek (the three I've reviewed at this under-$2500 price point) although this one is half the E20 $$.
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: wisnon on 23 Feb 2013, 03:53 pm
Dont forget the TEAC is even lower than this (even without DXD)!
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: ted_b on 23 Feb 2013, 03:57 pm
Dont forget the TEAC is even lower than this (even without DXD)!

I didn't forget.  I mentioned 24/352k for that reason.  :)  Native DXD playback is almost as unique as DSD (as far as specs go, especially in this price range).  Native DXD is very nice.
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: wisnon on 23 Feb 2013, 05:34 pm
OK, kinda saw that coming, but it was worth a shot.  :oops:
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: Maxvla on 24 Feb 2013, 04:08 am
X-Sabre general availability will be in mid March.
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: Maxvla on 27 Feb 2013, 08:50 am
Got it tonight. A few pics for now. Impressions later. If you have any questions, feel free to ask. I've got it working with DSD in Foobar and JRiver and of course DXD works as well. It is now available for pre-order, with delivery sometime in mid to late March.

(http://imageshack.us/a/img89/118/xsabre1y.jpg)

(http://imageshack.us/a/img51/4267/xsabre4.jpg)

(http://imageshack.us/a/img46/5713/xsabre7.jpg)

(http://imageshack.us/a/img254/1853/rigsabre.jpg)
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: ted_b on 27 Feb 2013, 02:08 pm
Nice.  I understand from Arthur that you will be reviewing for some Head-Fi feedback (along with project86) and the upcoming Austin show, but will you be listening to it through amp/speakers too? 
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: Maxvla on 27 Feb 2013, 05:58 pm
Hm.. It is possible, but my speaker gear is far less refined. A pair of Paradigm Studio 40v4 large bookshelves powered by a vintage Pioneer SX-9 (125WPC) + Velodyne CHT12.
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: ted_b on 27 Feb 2013, 06:04 pm
Hm.. It is possible, but my speaker gear is far less refined. A pair of Paradigm Studio 40v4 large bookshelves powered by a vintage Pioneer SX-9 (125WPC) + Velodyne CHT12.

Ok, no problem.  Then I guess you will compare X-Sabre to other DACS you've heard through your hp's?
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: sfox7076 on 27 Feb 2013, 07:29 pm
Excited to see the review of the X-Sabre.  I am trying to decide on buying the Meitner or buying a McIntosh D100 and another, cheaper DSD DAC to play with for a bit.  I think it will be the Meitner in the end so I get the best of all worlds...  I just tend to be that way.  Otherwise there are too manyy what ifs...

Shawn
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: Maxvla on 27 Feb 2013, 07:46 pm
Ok, no problem.  Then I guess you will compare X-Sabre to other DACS you've heard through your hp's?
Yes, I will compare it to the Schiit Gungnir a balanced, yet not DSD equipped, DAC. I may also be comparing it to the Resonessence Concero, an unbalanced non-DSD DAC.

As far as headphones and speakers I don't really want to start an argument, but I find it significantly easier to hear detail and imaging precision on headphones. Adding to that is that a headphone rig capable high end reproduction is dramatically cheaper, partly in gear, partly in being able to ignore room problems.

Edit: I will be visiting someone's home in Austin who runs a turntable rig with a Leben 300 amp and Harbeth 5 something speakers. If there is time we might try it.
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: glory on 3 Mar 2013, 08:53 pm
I have the Lampizator L5 dac with DSD. Only tubed DSD on the market??
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: wisnon on 3 Mar 2013, 10:10 pm
Are you sure your L5 is DSD capable? I am not aware that there is a DSD Lampi yet available.

Here is a tubed DSD Dac posted by Ted from about 6 weeks ago:


Well, Norman, looks like Lucasz won't have the worlds first DSD tube DAC after all...
http://www.lector-audio.com/digitube-dsd.htm

Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: Maxvla on 4 Mar 2013, 02:02 am
Compared the X-Sabre to PerfectWave II and Lavry DA11 yesterday. Preferred the X-Sabre. The other two were close, but had issues. Tried the X-Sabre on the Leben/Harbeth setup, and actually fooled someone into thinking it was running off the WTL Amadeus. He was slightly drunk at the time though, heh. It sounded very good on the speaker rig, clear pounding bass, great attack with balanced frequencies and ability to image well and be detailed. I thought it sounded just as good as the most clean records he put on the Amadeus, but with a bit more treble energy (my preference). Having experienced a full night of vinyl, I can say I am definitely not cut out to be a vinyl person. Too much work, and if his rig is anything to judge by, not enough reward (or any).
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: @lexander on 7 Mar 2013, 09:18 pm
Quote
Compared the X-Sabre to PerfectWave II and Lavry DA11 yesterday.
:o
First, Chord QuteHD beats all in price range, not we have 1k DAC better than 4k PS Audio.
I'll be very useful to compare X-sabre to e20 and to QuteHD.
I almost bought e20, but that 2.5 times cheaper devise looks very attractive. And now cant decide which to buy. Can't audition any of them, because no one is available in my entire country. No wrong choices allowed, we shoul pick best one  :thumb:
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: jhm731 on 8 Mar 2013, 06:19 am
So, what's your vote for the best sounding DSD DAC?
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: OzarkTom on 8 Mar 2013, 01:00 pm
Digital Audio Review gave a mention of the X-Sabre on their website a few days ago.

http://www.digitalaudioreview.net/2013/03/matrix-audio-announce-x-sabre-dsddxd-dac/

But it looks like Teac now has one for $849 retail, if you scroll down to the letters.
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: srb on 8 Mar 2013, 01:45 pm
But it looks like Teac now has one for $849 retail, if you scroll down to the letters.
There is a current topic about the Teac UD-501
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=113671.0

Steve
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: OzarkTom on 8 Mar 2013, 01:50 pm
There is a current topic about the Teac UD-501
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=113671.0

Steve

Thanks Steve.
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: Russtafarian on 8 Mar 2013, 07:02 pm
An observation on what I heard last night listening to the Benchmark DAC2.

For years Bucky Pizzarelli Live has been one of my favorite SACDs because it does a faithful job of capturing the feel and ambiance of a great band playing in a small jazz club. Last night I played the DSD file through the DAC2 for the first time. I’m not sure how to articulate this, but I experienced a level of holographic realism that I’ve rarely heard from any recording.

I’ve done studio recording in the past and I’ve mixed live sound for over 30 years. The sound and feel of a band playing live through a good studio monitoring system or a properly tuned P.A. is burned deeply into my aural memory. It’s the immediacy and tactile pressurization of the senses that usually gets lost between the live event and what gets recorded, stored and played back later. Listening to the Bucky recording in DSD got me as close to that live feel as I’ve ever heard in my home system. It was startling, and joyous.

I can't tell you how much of this is due to the sound of the Benchmark, or the superiority of native DSD, or how this compares to other DSD DACs.  I've made my choice and am happy with it.  What a treat to have a piece of gear that can convey such a rich musical experience.

Russ
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: rhmmmm on 8 Mar 2013, 10:50 pm
Russ,

It's awesome you're enjoying your DAC and DSD.  The moments of realism and being "transported there" that can give you a rich musical experience is one of the reasons I'm in this game of audiophilia!

I'll have to check out the SACD you mentioned.  Last night I was also listening, and I had a similar moment with this disc: Roy Orbison - Black & White Night through my MA-1.  It was simply stunning.  The first track (Only The Lonely, classic Orbison) was my favorite and I listened to it a few times.  I felt like I was in the crowd.

Rob
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: munosmario on 8 Mar 2013, 11:39 pm
Russ,

It's awesome you're enjoying your DAC and DSD.  The moments of realism and being "transported there" that can give you a rich musical experience is one of the reasons I'm in this game of audiophilia!

I'll have to check out the SACD you mentioned.  Last night I was also listening, and I had a similar moment with this disc: Roy Orbison - Black & White Night through my MA-1.  It was simply stunning.  The first track (Only The Lonely, classic Orbison) was my favorite and I listened to it a few times.  I felt like I was in the crowd.

Rob

Guy's a little clarification would be most appreciated.

Russ is talking about listening to the DSD file version of that Pizzarelli SACD but, Rob, you are talking about checking out that SACD...or did you mean "file"? I gather Meitner transports can pass native DSD from SACD (through a propriatary optical link) to their DSD capable DACs (like yours, Rob), is that your situation and , thus, the checking for that Pizarelli SACD?
 
Now, if we are actually dealing with a DSD file --or files-- Russ, could you please be more specific, was it a downloaded DoP file (from where?), or some rip from the actual SACD using a suitable Sony Play Station, or was it some other way to stream DSD natively from computer?

Thanks and cheers,

Mario
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: Russtafarian on 9 Mar 2013, 12:47 am
The Bucky Pizzarelli DSD file I referred to was extracted from my SACD, thanks to Tyson's generous SACD ripping offer.

Russ
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: munosmario on 9 Mar 2013, 01:48 am
The Bucky Pizzarelli DSD file I referred to was extracted from my SACD, thanks to Tyson's generous SACD ripping offer.

Russ

Thanks a lot, Russ...out of curiosity, what type of file extension shows for the DSD files that tyson ripped for you, DSF or DFF, or something else? Apologies if that was already stated in this or another pertinent thread.

Cheers................Mario
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: Russtafarian on 9 Mar 2013, 04:52 am
Tyson provided me with SACD ISO files.  I used Ted B's program to extract a stereo DSF file for each track from the ISO.  Jriver tags and plays the DSF files, using DoP to send DSD to the Benchmark DAC.

Russ
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: munosmario on 9 Mar 2013, 07:03 am
Tyson provided me with SACD ISO files.  I used Ted B's program to extract a stereo DSF file for each track from the ISO.  Jriver tags and plays the DSF files, using DoP to send DSD to the Benchmark DAC.

Russ

Thanks, Russ....I think I got it. Tyson did not actually rip the SACD for you. He created a disc image (ISO) which, in turn, you ripped into  *.dsf files (containing the DSD audio signal information) using Ted_b's program. Then, to play the DSD audio signal in those *.dsf files, you use JRiver to create the DoP files that are required to stream (via USB) the DSD signal out of your computer into your new Benchmark DAC 2. All of this the consequence of i) SACD copy protection and ii) limitations of the USB 2.0 protocol to transmit a DSD signal....rather complicated but, no doubt, a highly rewarding exercise!

Cheers........................Mario
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: @lexander on 9 Mar 2013, 12:05 pm
Quote
limitations of the USB 2.0 protocol to transmit a DSD signal
if DAC supports native DSD, how to send DSD files to it? You say that usb 2 limited to DoP, so how to send native DSD?
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: ted_b on 9 Mar 2013, 02:37 pm
Guys, first off DoP does NOT require any creating of files, it is a protocol.  Second, it is in fact native DSD that is passed (said for the hundredth time)not a PCM conversion.  Third, when you get DSD off the disc it is called ripping just like when you rip something else from a disc.  When you extract DSF files from the ISO it is called extraction.  Jriver can play either of these (the isos or the dsf files) with no intervention, no creation of "DoP files" etc.

No it is not complex, it is straight forward.

DSD, native and unconverted, gets to a USB DAC via either a native ASIO driver or via DoP (which is an unobtrusive automatic protocol that carries DSD within the first 16 bits of a 24/176 PCm container).  This is not PCM conversion...nothing is converted, and the user does nothing.
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: munosmario on 9 Mar 2013, 04:45 pm
Guys, first off DoP does NOT require any creating of files, it is a protocol.  Second, it is in fact native DSD that is passed (said for the hundredth time)not a PCM conversion.  Third, when you get DSD off the disc it is called ripping just like when you rip something else from a disc.  When you extract DSF files from the ISO it is called extraction.  Jriver can play either of these (the isos or the dsf files) with no intervention, no creation of "DoP files" etc.

No it is not complex, it is straight forward.

DSD, native and unconverted, gets to a USB DAC via either a native ASIO driver or via DoP (which is an unobtrusive automatic protocol that carries DSD within the first 16 bits of a 24/176 PCm container).  This is not PCM conversion...nothing is converted, and the user does nothing.

Thanks, Ted. Stand correct, DoP is not a file but, as you stated, a protocol that enables a port using the standard USB 2.0 protocol to transmit a native DSD signal....in other words, since the standard USB 2.0 protocol does not recognize DSD digital audio signals (only PCM ones), the DoP protocol enables the computer's USB port to transmit the native DSD signal as if it were a PCM signal but it is still a native DSD signal (ridding on top of a PCM proxy/virtual carrier signal, so to speak). What the DSD (Dop) capable DAC does is to extract the native DSD signal from the DoP modified signal coming out of the computer's USB port. Right?

Now, regarding usage of the term "ripping", we can agree to disagree. Strictly speaking, creating an ISO image is just that: "creating a disk image." When you create a disc image of a CD prior to burning, for example, that is not normally called "ripping", which would correctly be the case when the digital audio data is extracted from the disc image (or original disc, for that matter) and saved as readable digital files (playable tracks) in a computer's storage drive. That is what the term "ripping" literally means: ripping (as in "separate" not "destroy") a disc's digital contents  into individual tracks.   

Regarding simplicity or complexity label for the multi-stage process, it is simple for you or tyson or whoever has the right PS3 to start with... and, thankfully, through yours or tyson's generosity, you guys make the process "simpler" for the rest of us, but not "simple." As it pertains to myself, imposing on someoes's time and goodwill is not really that simple.

Thanks again and cheers......................Mario
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: Tyson on 9 Mar 2013, 05:39 pm
Just to clarify - I rip ISO files from the physical SACD disc and put them on a hard drive for you, and if you want dff files, I will extract those for you also (stereo only, not multichannel).
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: srb on 9 Mar 2013, 05:58 pm
That is what the term "ripping" literally means: ripping (as in "separate" not "destroy") a disc's digital contents  into individual tracks.

That is what it has come to mean relative to digital audio, but the term "rip" was originally adopted from the digital graphics sector to describe the process of producing a file that is in a format usable by an endpoint device, and literally stands for Raster Image Processor - software or embedded firmware that inputs a vector graphic file and creates a bitmap file that printing devices can use.

Steve
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: munosmario on 9 Mar 2013, 08:02 pm
That is what it has come to mean relative to digital audio, but the term "rip" was originally adopted from the digital graphics sector to describe the process of producing a file that is in a format usable by an endpoint device, and literally stands for Raster Image Processor - software or embedded firmware that inputs a vector graphic file and creates a bitmap file that printing devices can use.

Steve

Thanks, Steve...as you stated, I am correct relative to digital audio, which is precisely the contex of this discussion. But very interesting piece of information...if of any saving grace, within the said context, please notice that when I say "literally" I am referring to the term "ripping" meaning "ripping", namely,  to the action accomplished by the process. I did not stated that RIP means literally “to rip" :lol: :lol:

In any event, I am almost sure that you would agree with me that, within a digital audio context, the RIP acronym was so befitting as a word to describe the purpose of the process that it became a noun to name the process itself (as well as a verb to describe the action of using the process)--with vague memories of its origin as an acronym in the digital graphics field.

Thanks and cheers.................Carlos
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: wisnon on 9 Mar 2013, 09:50 pm
The SACD disc was protected for eons and now someone has come up with a way to rip the data from it in a usable file format .iso

Iso files are directly playable and have ripped 40 so far and not extracted a single one, as I find no compelling reason to do so yet!

That for me is the definition of ripping and in this subset of digital audio, IT HAS COME TO MEAN JUST THAT! The people who introduced the process get to name it.

You rip an .iso file and you extract a .dsf file from it of desired.
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: rhmmmm on 9 Mar 2013, 11:34 pm
Guy's a little clarification would be most appreciated.

Russ is talking about listening to the DSD file version of that Pizzarelli SACD but, Rob, you are talking about checking out that SACD...or did you mean "file"? I gather Meitner transports can pass native DSD from SACD (through a propriatary optical link) to their DSD capable DACs (like yours, Rob), is that your situation and , thus, the checking for that Pizarelli SACD?
 
Now, if we are actually dealing with a DSD file --or files-- Russ, could you please be more specific, was it a downloaded DoP file (from where?), or some rip from the actual SACD using a suitable Sony Play Station, or was it some other way to stream DSD natively from computer?

Thanks and cheers,

Mario

Mario,

Edit: by checking it out, I mean looking at it on amazon and listening to the preview tracks.  If I like it, I'll buy it.  I have a PS3 capable of ripping the SACD layer, so that is how I would get this SACD's DSD material to my DAC. 

Also, here is what Wikipedia thinks of ripping: http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ripping
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: munosmario on 10 Mar 2013, 12:11 am
The SACD disc was protected for eons and now someone has come up with a way to rip the data from it in a usable file format .iso

Iso files are directly playable and have ripped 40 so far and not extracted a single one, as I find no compelling reason to do so yet!

That for me is the definition of ripping and in this subset of digital audio, IT HAS COME TO MEAN JUST THAT! The people who introduced the process get to name it.

You rip an .iso file and you extract a .dsf file from it of desired.

Wow, wisnon, what a proclamation. I am not going to argue with you, just refer you to Ted_B's own words in a Computer Adiophile's thread (which echoes plenty of similar references to the meaning of ripping SACD's in that and other relevant forums:

"The only way to rip SACD's (to extract true DSD from them) is via the "hacked PS3" method described and discussed heavily here.
 http://www.computeraudiophile.com/content/SACD-ripping-using-your-PS3-part-2"

As you can see, according to Ted's quoted statement, to rip a SACD is to extract true DSD files from them. Totally in line with conventional wisdom. So, if, as you say, you have not extracted any file yet from those ISO images you have in your possession, then, according to Ted, you have ripped nothing. All you have is a collection of ISO disc images that you created (or somebody else created for you).  Now, if Ted decides to humor you and changes his statement to endorse your proclamation, then, out of the respect that he deserves for his hard work on this matter, I will gladly humor him and also endorse that proclamation.

Peace....................Mario


Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: munosmario on 10 Mar 2013, 12:34 am
Mario,

Edit: by checking it out, I mean looking at it on amazon and listening to the preview tracks.  If I like it, I'll buy it.  I have a PS3 capable of ripping the SACD layer, so that is how I would get this SACD's DSD material to my DAC. 

Also, here is what Wikipedia thinks of ripping: http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ripping

Thanks a lot, Rob, for the "cheking out" clarification. I was hoping that the SACD being recommended was available in downlodable DSD format (as you may have realized by now, I don't have suitable PS3).

Also, thanks for the Wikipedia link, there it is clearly stated that according to conventional wisdom "ripping" and "Dgital Audio Extraction (DAE)" are one and the same....meaning, if no extraction, then, no ripping. As the link also states, ripping is distinct from simple file copying, in that the source audio/video often isn't originally formatted for ease of use in a computer file system--which is exactly the case with an ISO disc image (a copy) of a SACD disc.

Thanks and cheers.............................Mari o


Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: Tyson on 10 Mar 2013, 12:46 am
You can play ISO files, DFF, or DSF files all as native DSD.  The advantage of using DSF or DFF is with organizing the music - ie, putting it in folders and/or tagging it. 
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: wisnon on 10 Mar 2013, 06:59 am
Wow, wisnon, what a proclamation. I am not going to argue with you, just refer you to Ted_B's own words in a Computer Adiophile's thread (which echoes plenty of similar references to the meaning of ripping SACD's in that and other relevant forums:

"The only way to rip SACD's (to extract true DSD from them) is via the "hacked PS3" method described and discussed heavily here.
 http://www.computeraudiophile.com/content/SACD-ripping-using-your-PS3-part-2"

As you can see, according to Ted's quoted statement, to rip a SACD is to extract true DSD files from them. Totally in line with conventional wisdom. So, if, as you say, you have not extracted any file yet from those ISO images you have in your possession, then, according to Ted, you have ripped nothing. All you have is a collection of ISO disc images that you created (or somebody else created for you).  Now, if Ted decides to humor you and changes his statement to endorse your proclamation, then, out of the respect that he deserves for his hard work on this matter, I will gladly humor him and also endorse that proclamation.

Peace....................Mario
I have my own PS3, thank you and Mr Wicked is the creator of the ripping process which Ted has told us 1000s of times. LoL

If "all I have is a bunch of disk image files", then tell me why I am enjoying DSD playback at will?

All this brouhaha over semantics is unbecoming and I fail to see how this helps anyone. Get with the program.
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: ted_b on 10 Mar 2013, 02:55 pm
Yes, please use these terms or stop posting about SACD Ripping to DSD:
ripping:  using Mr Wicked's SACD ripper.pkg on the PS3 to rip ISO images from the otherwise protected SACD disc, to your hard drive
extracting:  to use the sacd_extract.exe (Windows or MAC) to extract DSF or DFF files from the aforementioned ISO.

There is no need to change the terminology.  It's not debatable.  That's what the tools are called, and that's what we call the processes in our project.  Sorry....

As Norman (Wisnon) and Tyson state, there are music players that will read the ISO directly (and not need you to extract to DSF or DFF).  In fact, at AXPONA this weekend Michal and I have discussed such comparisons.  I am tasked, this next week, to compare, both sonically and flexibility0wise, the differences between playing the ISO file and playing the stereo and multichannel extracted DSF files.  The ISO direct playback has huge convenience and storage benefits, but I'm concerned that they may sound different (because of on-the-fly extraction by the player..especially in multichannel) and they may not be able to be tagged anywhere as easily...let alone playlist flexibility, etc.  I will report back.
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: sts9fan on 10 Mar 2013, 03:18 pm
Quote
Yes, please use these terms or stop posting about SACD Ripping to
This isn't Russia. Is this Russia? This isn't Russia.
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: rw@cn on 10 Mar 2013, 03:50 pm
ISO is not a term invented by Mr. Wicked or others. It is a long standing term that has been in use for years and has a precise meaning. If you don't use it or use it incorrectly, then there is a lot of unneeded confusion and perhaps needless invective. 
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: ted_b on 10 Mar 2013, 03:57 pm
This isn't Russia. Is this Russia? This isn't Russia.

WHAT is your point??  That posting confusing terminology and debating it (when we already have the terminology) for semantics-sake is worth more discussion in the thread??  Really? 

So, no this isn't Russia, but it is a forum Circle that requires some focus and some moderation.  Start a new thread in a general Circle if you want to discuss the supposed vagueries of computer audio terminology, but please let's get back to topic.
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: strocky on 15 Mar 2013, 12:07 pm
Hello there from Bonnie Scotland, I've read this thread with interest as I'm about to home demo a Mytek 192 & Benchmark HGC2 DAC, however I'm looking for some advice regarding the best way to integrate a DSD DAC into my current system (See system breakdown below)

Anthem MRX 300 AV Amp with ARC (Required for my very bad room - laminate flooring, speaker next to large window, listening position in alcove)
Lyngdorf SDA2175 Poweramp (used to drive front speakers via Pre-Out of AV Amp)
Audiovector Mi3 Super Floorstanding Speakers + matching centre/rear for 5.1 System

I assume I could use the HT Bypass of the Benchmark DAC or the Analogue Input of the Mytek into the Pre-Out of my Anthem Amp?

However if I decided to go for a cheaper option in the TEAC UD-501 DAC, how would I integrate that into my AV Amp??

Another possible complication is that I'm still concerned that no matter how good the DAC is, my room would still get in the way, with this in mind would adding a Lyngdorf DPA-1 or RP-1 be helpful or would it be adding too many boxes into the mix?? (AV Amp, Poweramp, Processor & DAC)
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: Hank on 15 Mar 2013, 12:43 pm
Wow - semantics rodeo.  I've become interested in hi-rez and now this DSD topic.  I am not computer music literate, but my takeaway from all this is that I can't rip or extract or whatever from SACD's unless I use an old PS3 or ask someone who owns one, to do that for me.  Is that the bottom line - PS3 process or NO DSD enjoyment?
thanks
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: ted_b on 15 Mar 2013, 12:52 pm
Wow - semantics rodeo.  I've become interested in hi-rez and now this DSD topic.  I am not computer music literate, but my takeaway from all this is that I can't rip or extract or whatever from SACD's unless I use an old PS3 or ask someone who owns one, to do that for me.  Is that the bottom line - PS3 process or NO DSD enjoyment?
thanks

There are indeed DSD download sites (BlueCoast, Channel Classics, Premonition Records, 2L, e-Onkyo Japan) but to do yourself with SACDs, yes you are indeed correct.
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: Hank on 15 Mar 2013, 01:05 pm
Thanks Ted, and many thanks to your efforts in hi-rez that I am noticing!  :thumb: :thumb:
I will visit those sites and try a download to...what? My computer? - Okay, to my portable hard drive via my computer, then plug the portable HD into my OPPO BDP105?
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: ted_b on 15 Mar 2013, 01:17 pm
Thanks Ted, and many thanks to your efforts in hi-rez that I am noticing!  :thumb: :thumb:
I will visit those sites and try a download to...what? My computer? - Okay, to my portable hard drive via my computer, then plug the portable HD into my OPPO BDP105?

Oppo had originally announced that they would accept DSF (DSD) files via the USB in with some firmware soon.  Most assumed that meant USB from the computer (i.e DoP or ASIO)..but they clarified it last week and said, no, only via USB hard drives.  So yes, download the stuff to a hard drive and get ready for Oppos firmware soon.  For most of us with DSD DACS, we do it via USB from the computer (or Invicta's idea of using SD cards).
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: Hank on 15 Mar 2013, 01:22 pm
OK Ted, I'll watch for new OPPO firmware news on the big BDP105 thread on AVS Forum.
thanks again
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: Russtafarian on 15 Mar 2013, 05:36 pm
I wonder if Oppo's DSD via USB drive firmware update will work with the 103?  I'd be willing to give it a try.

Russ
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: Phil A on 15 Mar 2013, 06:22 pm
I wonder if Oppo's DSD via USB drive firmware update will work with the 103?  I'd be willing to give it a try.

Russ

The 105 is a DAC input and the DAC I believe is what they are getting reading to decode DSD
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: ted_b on 15 Mar 2013, 07:56 pm
Russ has an interesting question.  Since Oppo has reported that they won't support DoP for DSF files, and have instead said they would support DSF files via USB hard drive, does this mean the 103 is in play for this as well...since it also has a couple of USB ports for hard drive music.  It seems like the asynchronous USB DAC capability of the 105 is not in discussion here (re DSF file support).  Hmm...
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: wisnon on 15 Mar 2013, 10:03 pm
Yes, please use these terms or stop posting about SACD Ripping to DSD:
ripping:  using Mr Wicked's SACD ripper.pkg on the PS3 to rip ISO images from the otherwise protected SACD disc, to your hard drive
extracting:  to use the sacd_extract.exe (Windows or MAC) to extract DSF or DFF files from the aforementioned ISO.

There is no need to change the terminology.  It's not debatable.  That's what the tools are called, and that's what we call the processes in our project.  Sorry....

As Norman (Wisnon) and Tyson state, there are music players that will read the ISO directly (and not need you to extract to DSF or DFF).  In fact, at AXPONA this weekend Michal and I have discussed such comparisons.  I am tasked, this next week, to compare, both sonically and flexibility0wise, the differences between playing the ISO file and playing the stereo and multichannel extracted DSF files.  The ISO direct playback has huge convenience and storage benefits, but I'm concerned that they may sound different (because of on-the-fly extraction by the player..especially in multichannel) and they may not be able to be tagged anywhere as easily...let alone playlist flexibility, etc.  I will report back.
I will try to do some extractions and compare to iso files as well.
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: scorpion on 16 Mar 2013, 09:23 pm
At the DSDfile.com/Opus3 demo we could hear the Meitner MA-1 and Korg DS-DAC-10. The Korg, I think, was perhaps a little bit warmer,
but differences otherwise very small.  :)

/Erling
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: mav52 on 20 Mar 2013, 12:56 pm
Probably a dumb question, :oops:   Since a lot of users have good DACS that hanldes 24/192 from all ports,   does anyone just make a DAC that does DSD "only"   would be kind of nice to just add that capability to the system without buying a completely new DAC with DSD
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: OzarkTom on 20 Mar 2013, 01:24 pm
Has anyone heard the new Benchmark for $2K?

http://www.benchmarkmedia.com/dac/dac2-hgc
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: mav52 on 20 Mar 2013, 01:36 pm
Quote
Has anyone heard the new Benchmark for $2K?
sure, a few people on CA have them and indicate they are a big improvement over the Benchmark DAC1.  I'm still waiting on ted_b to compare it to the Mytek or the Chord DSD DAC.

http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f6-dac-digital-analog-conversion/benchmark-hgc-dac2-15289/
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: ted_b on 20 Mar 2013, 01:44 pm
Hi.  I was so unimpressed with the B-mark DAC1 that I haven't had the new one on my radar.  Chord?  Yes!  I want to hear that one big time.

To answer the earlier question, no, it doesn't make sense to have a DSD-only DAC...what is needed for DSD is not that different than PCM, and the chipset is not a big part of the DAC cost (analog section, power supplies, etc).  That being said, there are certainly inexpensive enough DACs out there that do DSD and could be your DSD-only DAC if you needed to keep your PCM one.  It might be a hassle swapping cables, etc..or firewire for one, USB for the other kind of thing.
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: mav52 on 20 Mar 2013, 02:43 pm
Hi.  I was so unimpressed with the B-mark DAC1 that I haven't had the new one on my radar.  Chord?  Yes!  I want to hear that one big time.

To answer the earlier question, no, it doesn't make sense to have a DSD-only DAC...what is needed for DSD is not that different than PCM, and the chipset is not a big part of the DAC cost (analog section, power supplies, etc).  That being said, there are certainly inexpensive enough DACs out there that do DSD and could be your DSD-only DAC if you needed to keep your PCM one.  It might be a hassle swapping cables, etc..or firewire for one, USB for the other kind of thing.

Thank you Ted.. Just wondering, makes since with the techy stuff.   On the Chord, give David Lewis a call http://davidlewisaudio.com/index.html  as they are the only ones on the east coast, maybe they will let you demo a Chord... 
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: wisnon on 20 Mar 2013, 04:25 pm
This shop (audiodoctor NJersey, does Chord too)
http://www.audiodoctor.com/dac.html
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: Russtafarian on 20 Mar 2013, 05:43 pm
Quote
Has anyone heard the new Benchmark for $2K?

I have one and I really like it.  A few of my comments here at AC:

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=110794.msg1198729#msg1198729 (http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=110794.msg1198729#msg1198729)

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=113858.msg1186830#msg1186830 (http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=113858.msg1186830#msg1186830)

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=110794.msg1150697#msg1150697 (http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=110794.msg1150697#msg1150697)

More at CA:

http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f6-dac-digital-analog-conversion/benchmark-hgc-dac2-15289/ (http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f6-dac-digital-analog-conversion/benchmark-hgc-dac2-15289/)

I noticed that Blue Coast Records is now selling the DAC2 as well as the Mytek.  They offer a $200 credit towards DSD downloads with DAC purchase.

Russ
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: ted_b on 20 Mar 2013, 06:01 pm
Russ,
I have to assume my impression of the DAC1 was partly due to its lack of break in, something you wrote about in the DAC2 post above.  it was horrible, and since then have wondered what people heard in it (again, DAC1 I'm talking about).  But several reviews have said how starkly better the DAC2 is anyway....
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: wisnon on 20 Mar 2013, 07:54 pm
Russ,
I have to assume my impression of the DAC1 was partly due to its lack of break in, something you wrote about in the DAC2 post above.  it was horrible, and since then have wondered what people heard in it (again, DAC1 I'm talking about).  But several reviews have said how starkly better the DAC2 is anyway....

I have a pal who thought the Dac1 was horrible, but given the feedback for the 2, I think they have scored big time with the reincarnation. Good thing too, as the competition is hotter than July now.
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: Phil A on 20 Mar 2013, 08:51 pm
I heard the DAC1 and also was not impressed.  I'm hoping the DAC2 is better.  I'd actually like to have one at some point (I guess I'll get to hear it at the Capital Audiofest in July) for a secondary system as it has really nice features like it can be used as a preamp with HT Bypass and also tells you the word length of what you are getting.  It would be nice to have something nice and simple in a secondary system that sounds good too.
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: PhilipAC on 28 Mar 2013, 10:44 am
Regarding the sound of ISO files vs the DSF file, I asked Damien of Audirvana about this and he said he could hear no difference- he also said that he thought
A+ in standalone mode was better than A+ in iTunes-integrated mode, and I agree totally with this.

Philip
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: PhilipAC on 28 Mar 2013, 11:25 am
I am desperate to get a DSD DAC to play all my DSF files, but feel that I need 6 to 12 months to make a "final" decision, given all the choice and number of
prospective new models.

So I am thinking of getting a relatively cheap model now and upgrade (if necessary) later this year/early next year. The choice at about £1500 or less
appears to be as follows:

* Mytek 192
* Chord Qute HD
* Sonore/exD
* Teac UD501
* Matrix X-Sabre

Any advice/comments would be greatly appreciated, particularly from those who have heard one or more of them.

Thanks

Philip
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: ted_b on 28 Mar 2013, 12:49 pm
The Matrix X-Sabre starts shipping tomorrow officially.  I will get my demo unit soon, so I will have heard (I own two of the above, Meitner and Mytek, and wrote a review about the Sonore/eXD) most in the list.
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: PhilipAC on 28 Mar 2013, 03:05 pm
Thanks Ted

Found your comments on Mytek and Sonore.

Your comments on the Matrix vs Mytek and Sonore, when you've got it, would be great to hear. Since it does 32/384 as well as DSD128, I guess
I'm hoping it will hold its own.

Philip
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: PhilipAC on 28 Mar 2013, 03:16 pm
Ted

Two (probably stupid) questions about your and Jesus's DSD DAC table.

Since they are all DSD DACs, what do "Native DSD in" and "Native DSD out" mean? And if it says USB(ASIO), does this mean it won't work straight from my MacBook Pro?

Thanks

Philip
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: ted_b on 28 Mar 2013, 03:24 pm
Philip,
Native DSD in simply means to differentiate from DoP, so native would be typically ASIO driver or an SDIF input.  Native DSD out is usually HDMi or I2S (i.e will this DAC output a DSD bistream).  And yes, I haven't found an ASIO implementation of native DSD (yet) on MAC.  But DoP is fine.
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: wisnon on 28 Mar 2013, 03:26 pm
Phillip

Please respond to my PM.

I have some free time now...
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: wisnon on 28 Mar 2013, 04:18 pm
If just dipping your toe before getting the "ultimate", in a fully balanced system, I would suggest the Teac, which Valenroy says is on par whith the Mytek for DSD. At about £700 full retail, you cant really lose much if you sell within a year to trade up. It does DSD128, has dual mono construction and is fully balanced with a host of connections. It uses BB1795 chips, I believe. As Mytek brought DSD to the masses, I have a soft spot for them too.

In terms of the ultimate,  I have heard good things about the PBD MP5 which upsamples everything to DSD128 internally. PCM is so-so, but DSD is sublime. Costs a pretty penny though.

Cant say much about EMM labs, the Exasound E20, Auralic, Antelope or MSB...

What seems to be clear though is that DSD performance and PCM performance dont have a direct correlation in the same DAC.
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: ted_b on 28 Mar 2013, 04:24 pm


In terms of the ultimate,  I have heard good things about the PBD MP5 which upsamples everything to DSD128 internally.

So does my Meitner MA-1 and the EMM Labs DAC2X.  Same 1 bit chip architecture, the only ones left in the business.
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: wisnon on 28 Mar 2013, 04:57 pm
OK,

Good to know, so maybe 3 ultimates then! LoL
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: mfsoa on 28 Mar 2013, 10:38 pm
Hi Ted,

The new Marantz NA-11S1 does "...DSD over PCM." per their website.

Is this real DSD or does it mangle the DSD somehow?

Does DSD over PCM just refer to the way the DSD info is sent to the DAC?

Thanks for all of the hard work you have put in to increase our enjoyment of music :thumb:

-Mike
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: Phil A on 28 Mar 2013, 10:48 pm
DSD over PCM or DoP is explained here - http://wiki.jriver.com/index.php/DSD_Format
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: ted_b on 28 Mar 2013, 11:02 pm
Hi Ted,

The new Marantz NA-11S1 does "...DSD over PCM." per their website.

Is this real DSD or does it mangle the DSD somehow?

Does DSD over PCM just refer to the way the DSD info is sent to the DAC?

Thanks for all of the hard work you have put in to increase our enjoyment of music :thumb:

-Mike

Yes, Phil's link should help you understand.  DSD-over-PCM (aka DoP) is truly native DSD, but is a clever way for DAC mfgers to not have to each write their own ASIO drivers to directly access DSD.  Instead, it rides along the at-least-24/176k PCM signal container, with the first 8 bits acting as a sort of flagger to tell the DAC whether it is truly CPM or is it DSD stacked onto the next 16 bits at 176k (a multiple that allows 2.8mh DSD to stack rather easily).  it was first invented by the folks at dCS but was then handed over to a consortium of software and hardware teams, led by Andreas Koch of Playback Designs.  Pretty clever, actually.

Here is more detail than you need about it  :)
http://dsd-guide.com/dop-open-standard
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: Maxvla on 29 Mar 2013, 07:37 am
Hey guys, wanted to mention a new DSD DAC, a revision of one of the best value DACs out there, the Resonessence Concero. This new version will be available sometime late in April and will change from the ESS9023 chip (current) to ESS9016. The 9023 in the current implementation is not DSD capable, the 9016 will be. There are a few other tweaks in this version, mostly to accommodate the new chip, and the price will rise to $800, keeping it a very good value, but not quite as no-brainer as before. This DAC will certainly be the value DSD DAC of choice, IMO. If you need balanced output, the X-Sabre is waiting for you at the $1100 mark and ships starting today.

I just got my X-Sabre back from a review tour with some forum friends where it did well among a group including PSAudio PWD2, Mytek Stereo 192, and Schiit Gungnir (only one of these is DSD capable).
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: wisnon on 29 Mar 2013, 10:26 am
The $850 Teac is the real value play. Dual mono and fully balanced, lots of connectivity and DSD128 capable....
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: PhilipAC on 29 Mar 2013, 02:44 pm
So does my Meitner MA-1 and the EMM Labs DAC2X.  Same 1 bit chip architecture, the only ones left in the business.

Does this mean these DACs AUTOMATICALLY upsample to DSD128, or just that it is a user option?

Has anyone heard enough of the Playback Designs MPD 5 to give feedback, particularly vs Emmlabs DAC2X?
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: PhilipAC on 29 Mar 2013, 02:46 pm
Ted

Do you know when your Matrix X-Sabre will be arriving please?
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: ted_b on 29 Mar 2013, 03:03 pm
Does this mean these DACs AUTOMATICALLY upsample to DSD128, or just that it is a user option?

Has anyone heard enough of the Playback Designs MPD 5 to give feedback, particularly vs Emmlabs DAC2X?

The 1 bit DAC architecture of my Meitner (and the others) automatically upsamples to DSD128.  That is its processing rate.




Ted

Do you know when your Matrix X-Sabre will be arriving please?

Any time now; I actually thought it would have been last week or so..as the reviewer (not Maxvla) was finished.
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: PhilipAC on 29 Mar 2013, 04:37 pm
The 1 bit DAC architecture of my Meitner (and the others) automatically upsamples to DSD128.  That is its processing rate.

Forgive me if I'm missing something, Ted, but I thought you (and many others) favoured listening to music in its native format? With these DACS, presumably
one can't listen to any PCM files in their native format? Wouldn't it be better to have a DAC where any up sampling/conversion is optional?
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: Maxvla on 29 Mar 2013, 04:45 pm
The $850 Teac is the real value play. Dual mono and fully balanced, lots of connectivity and DSD128 capable....
I'd have to hear it to believe something with that much going on inside it isn't compromised.
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: Phil A on 29 Mar 2013, 04:45 pm
All I can say is that redbook and PCM sound amazing on the Meitner MA-1.  I've owned other DACs
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: ted_b on 29 Mar 2013, 04:51 pm
Forgive me if I'm missing something, Ted, but I thought you (and many others) favoured listening to music in its native format? With these DACS, presumably
one can't listen to any PCM files in their native format? Wouldn't it be better to have a DAC where any up sampling/conversion is optional?

The native format is preserved on output to analog.  It's just that it is not a NOS DAC.  All non-NOS DACs (90% of whats out there) upsample/oversample internally...kinda like making sausage...you don't wanna know what they go through.  I prefer they do their thing via DSD than via some sort of delta-sigma work.  The opposite would be those DSD-capable DACs that ttake DSD and do a lot of internal processing with multi-bit processors then convert back to DSD.  It's not PCM-to-DSD mind you, but it is less stright forward than NOS (non oversampling).

I am thinking of doing a paper with Jussi Laako from Signalyst; a sort of Dummies Guide to DAC architecture.  He is the tech, I am the dummy to translate to us audiophools.  The tradeoffs about ladder DACs, ring DACS, sigma-delta, 1 bit..how they do PCm and DSD...what is NOS....etc etc.
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: PhilipAC on 29 Mar 2013, 05:15 pm
The native format is preserved on output to analog.

I can see that DSD is preserved, but if a PCM signal goes into the DAC and gets converted to DSD128 before being converted to analogue, how is the native PCM
being preserved?

PS Your paper sounds fascinating!
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: PhilipAC on 29 Mar 2013, 05:19 pm
I'd have to hear it to believe something with that much going on inside it isn't compromised.

But the new Matrix has similar specs to the TEAC, and you and your pals thought it sounded great, as far as I can tell?

I'm not trying to be clever- I ask because I'm shortly going to choose between the TEAC and the Matrix as a short-term option.
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: wisnon on 29 Mar 2013, 07:16 pm
I'd have to hear it to believe something with that much going on inside it isn't compromised.
A poster (Valenroy) who has it and the Mytek says that while its so-so on PCM but equal to the Mytek on DSD.!
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: wisnon on 29 Mar 2013, 08:33 pm
Monster X-sabre thread here:
http://www.head-fi.org/t/650686/new-flagship-dac-from-matrix-audio-the-x-sabre
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: Maxvla on 30 Mar 2013, 04:08 am
But the new Matrix has similar specs to the TEAC, and you and your pals thought it sounded great, as far as I can tell?

I'm not trying to be clever- I ask because I'm shortly going to choose between the TEAC and the Matrix as a short-term option.
The X-Sabre is very well shielded and does not include an amplifier in the same box. The inside of the TEAC looks like a computer case and we all know how well those are shielded.
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: Maxvla on 30 Mar 2013, 04:09 am
A poster (Valenroy) who has it and the Mytek says that while its so-so on PCM but equal to the Mytek on DSD.!
Group of my friends (not local) had the Mytek to demo and thought it was quite bad, so for TEAC's sake, I hope not.
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: wisnon on 30 Mar 2013, 09:23 am
The Mytek is very well described in Monster threads at Comp Audiophile as well as here. Ted has one and so does Mike (who won one from Tone Audio). The feedback on DSD playback has always been good.

When you say the Teac has an amp inside, do you mean a Headphone amp? Shielding seems OK from the pictures as I see STEEL separating the power system (not CNC machined from aluminum as in the case of the X-Sabre) from the Digital section. Dual mono power supply should ensure top notch clean/stable power.

Audistream reviewed it well: http://www.audiostream.com/content/teac-ud-501-dual-monarual-pcmdsd-usb-digital-analog-converter
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: quicksound on 1 Apr 2013, 07:55 pm
After taking a look at the DSD Database table (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AgVhKcl_3lHfdFVyenBBNjNpQ2lieG81WGpqQTNfVUE#gid=0), can someone explain how the Wyred4Sound DAC2 is DSD64 and DSD128 compatible? I looked at the Wyred4Sound website and they don't mention DSD playback under the "features" section for the DAC2 - you think they would emphasize that point if it were in fact true.
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: ted_b on 1 Apr 2013, 08:23 pm
After taking a look at the DSD Database table (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AgVhKcl_3lHfdFVyenBBNjNpQ2lieG81WGpqQTNfVUE#gid=0), can someone explain how the Wyred4Sound DAC2 is DSD64 and DSD128 compatible? I looked at the Wyred4Sound website and they don't mention DSD playback under the "features" section for the DAC2 - you think they would emphasize that point if it were in fact true.

I think it is a mistaken entry.  I don't do all of them; someone claimed that DSD was available through I²S (like other SABRE dacs) but I have no substantiation.  Good find!  I will correct it if I find no info.
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: Maxvla on 2 Apr 2013, 02:52 am
The Matrix X-Sabre is listed at $1299, but actually sells for $1099, it is also now shipping.
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: ted_b on 2 Apr 2013, 03:50 am
The Matrix X-Sabre is listed at $1299, but actually sells for $1099, it is also now shipping.

Fixed it....thx
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: quicksound on 2 Apr 2013, 11:23 pm
Has anyone had the chance to compare the Chord QuteHD and the Sonore/exD DSD DAC? Any information would be greatly appreciated. Thanks!
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: wisnon on 2 Apr 2013, 11:28 pm
Audiostream has just reviewed the Auralic Vega and is raving. 6 Moons did a part 1 review with the conclusion yet to come.
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: ted_b on 2 Apr 2013, 11:51 pm
Has anyone had the chance to compare the Chord QuteHD and the Sonore/exD DSD DAC? Any information would be greatly appreciated. Thanks!

Soon will have the Chord, and I kinda remember the exD.  :)
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: wisnon on 3 Apr 2013, 11:43 am
Interesting excerpt from the NOW COMPLETED 6 moons review of the Auralic Vega:

"The DAC's power supply was revised several times to meet true bit-resolution requirements. The most difficult part during this development was figuring out how to best harness the ES9018. Its datasheet is an error-riddled nightmare with lots of vital information missing. We would like to openly thank everyone on diyaudio.com for their help on how to wring the most performance from this freaky chip. Another big event during development was the added support for DSD. It's actually no big deal to modify software code to support the format but hardware—especially analog circuitry—had to be completely redesigned to suit DSD's sonic character. From that perspective I very much doubt that any DAC which adds subsequent DSD support via a basic firmware upgrade will offer comparable sound. The Vega was designed from the ground up to optimize DSD playback."
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: mav52 on 3 Apr 2013, 01:31 pm
Soon will have the Chord,   :)
I'm looking forward to that review
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: rklein on 3 Apr 2013, 02:21 pm
I think that it is a very good thing that so many affordable choices are becoming available in regards to DSD capable DACS.

I have to say that I am extremely happy with how my Exasound E20 DAC has broken in.  :thumb:  While there are numerous reports about the DSD playback quality of various DACS, I would like to share that the E20 is the best DAC I have had in my humble system regarding Redbook as well as HiRez material. 

As much as we talk about DSD (don't get me wrong...I am a HUGE FAN - thx, Ted  8)), the fact remains that RB material makes up more than 95% of my music library and at $2,500 the E20 holds it's own very nicely. 

Regards,

Randy
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: wisnon on 3 Apr 2013, 03:07 pm
very good Randy.

I love my Lampi G4 L4 for PCM and the Chord for DSD and PCM too.
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: PhilipAC on 6 Apr 2013, 09:16 am
Well guys, I received yesterday my new Auralic Vega. It is obviously not burnt-in yet, but it already sounds wonderful. Not surprisingly, it is very good on DSD,
but I'm sitting here listening to Martha Argerich in her CLASSIC recording of Rach 3-quite old RBPCM- and it is stunningly good.

It is going to take longer (as it burns in) to decide whether it is as musical and emotional as my Vertex Aletheia NOS R2R DAC, but my goodness it has made
a fine start!
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: PhilipAC on 6 Apr 2013, 12:22 pm
Having now listened to several of the free downloads from this site

http://www.2l.no/hires/index.html

in both 354PCM (the recording format) and DSD128, and despite being a DSD fan, I generally find the DXD slightly more relaxed and musical.

I know this could be due to DXD/DSD differences in my Auralic Vega, but I think it more likely represents support for the principle of playing back in
the same format as the music was recorded in.
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: ted_b on 6 Apr 2013, 01:11 pm
Having now listened to several of the free downloads from this site

http://www.2l.no/hires/index.html

in both 354PCM (the recording format) and DSD128, and despite being a DSD fan, I generally find the DXD slightly more relaxed and musical.

I know this could be due to DXD/DSD differences in my Auralic Vega, but I think it more likely represents support for the principle of playing back in
the same format as the music was recorded in.

Agree 100%.  Always choose the native sample rate when you can.  Also, due to break-in who knows which clock, etc is more effective right now.  It wouldn't have surprised me that your impressions were the opposite (until your proper break in made native DXD sound better than converted DSD128). 

Have you a/b'd DSD with the Femto clock yet?  I know that option needs 24 hours from any reboot, let alone brand new boot.
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: wisnon on 6 Apr 2013, 04:29 pm
Congrats! Wish I could be there to audition it with you....
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: PhilipAC on 8 Apr 2013, 09:02 pm
I've now done a bit of a/b with the femto clock.

First I must emphasise that, as stated in the booklet, Exact will only work with a low jitter source. If there is too much jitter you get audio drop-outs. It
doesn't really work- like trying to sharpen a very blunt knife with too fine a setting. My SACD rips are mostly OK, sometimes not. Channel Classics downloads are
all ok.. For those that drop-out occasionally it's best to use Auto which optimises clock speed vs initial jitter.

The difference between Auto and Exact is noticeable and fascinating. Mostly Exact is best- the timing of the music is sharp as a razor. The notes come over as
absolutely precise- no blurring at all. Funnily enough, though, for some pieces of music- especially jazz- Auto can be better. One file of piano improvisations
from 2L Bench Test sounded slightly clinical in Exact and more "smokey" in Auto- as if you were in a smoke-filled jazz club!

The DAC would, I think, be unforgiving of bright recordings or systems that tended towards the bright side. It isn't bright itself but is towards that end of the spectrum.
Don't get me wrong- it doesn't sound "digital" but I wouldn't pair it with other components on the bright side of neutral.

I obviously have more listening to do, but so far I think it is very, very good and exceptional value.
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: scorpion on 22 Apr 2013, 02:14 pm
I have in fact been able to buy a KORG DS-DAC-10
from Japan. My unit has serial number 2606. It is a little
bit tricky to get to work with only a Japanese
manual. But I have managed it with both Foobar and JRiver and
DSD and PCM.
/Erling
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: ted_b on 22 Apr 2013, 02:44 pm
I've now done a bit of a/b with the femto clock.

First I must emphasise that, as stated in the booklet, Exact will only work with a low jitter source. If there is too much jitter you get audio drop-outs. It
doesn't really work- like trying to sharpen a very blunt knife with too fine a setting. My SACD rips are mostly OK, sometimes not. Channel Classics downloads are
all ok.. For those that drop-out occasionally it's best to use Auto which optimises clock speed vs initial jitter.

The difference between Auto and Exact is noticeable and fascinating. Mostly Exact is best- the timing of the music is sharp as a razor. The notes come over as
absolutely precise- no blurring at all. Funnily enough, though, for some pieces of music- especially jazz- Auto can be better. One file of piano improvisations
from 2L Bench Test sounded slightly clinical in Exact and more "smokey" in Auto- as if you were in a smoke-filled jazz club!

The DAC would, I think, be unforgiving of bright recordings or systems that tended towards the bright side. It isn't bright itself but is towards that end of the spectrum.
Don't get me wrong- it doesn't sound "digital" but I wouldn't pair it with other components on the bright side of neutral.

I obviously have more listening to do, but so far I think it is very, very good and exceptional value.

I will soon write up my Vega findings, but your observations about its pairing companions is spot on with mine; a classic symptom of the SABRE family.  BTW, I have no issues with Exact, and feel it is more susceptible to the transport/server than the files themselves.  I am using a CAPS V2+ (i.e V3 Lagoon) with Jriver/Jplay at ultrastream engine setting.
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: wisnon on 24 Apr 2013, 12:47 pm
A wow moment:

Lampizator By-Fikus
HA !!! Finally - DSD done RIGHT !
 I am very excited to have created my first DSD DAC and done it without chips. I designed a pure tube, zero solid state active decoder and filter that does DSD conversion without silicon. It is not easy to make but so satisfying. It takes all formats and file types and plays them with vinyl quality. It is for me a new era of digital. And in accordance with my LampizatOr principles I have glowing tubes in the DAC.


http://www.lampizator.eu/newdac/lampizator/DSD_DAC.html
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: WG on 27 Apr 2013, 09:39 pm
I came across some very interesting news regarding Resonessence Invicta and Concero near term new releases.  See Post 546,http://www.head-fi.org/t/634760/resonessence-labs-concero-discussion-review-thead/540. 

Will
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: rhmmmm on 30 Apr 2013, 03:21 pm
I came across some very interesting news regarding Resonessence Invicta and Concero near term new releases.  See Post 546,http://www.head-fi.org/t/634760/resonessence-labs-concero-discussion-review-thead/540. 

Will

Thanks for the heads up!  I may consider the HP version for computer listening!  Here's a better link to the post directly:

http://www.head-fi.org/t/634760/resonessence-labs-concero-discussion-review-thead/540#post_9389170 (http://www.head-fi.org/t/634760/resonessence-labs-concero-discussion-review-thead/540#post_9389170)
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: wisnon on 9 May 2013, 09:22 am
Submitted by Michael Lavorgna on April 25, 2013 - 3:52am. (Audiostream forum)

I just heard back from Chord....
And they are working on DSD128 for the Qute but do not have an estimated release date...yet.
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: ted_b on 9 May 2013, 12:49 pm
DanG posted last night that Wyred4Sound has joined the DSD fray, and in a big way.  DSD64 and DSD128 plus 32/384k, integer support and driverless Linux and OSX.  All with a new USB board for $350 upgrade, as well as and SE version of the DAC (upgraded parts) for now $2499.   :thumb:

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=116589.0

I added these to the DSD database last night.
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: jackman on 9 May 2013, 02:21 pm
Hi Dan,

Thanks, I checked out the links and they answered my questions.  Very cool development.  Schiit is also working on a DSD upgrade but I'm not sure if existing DACs can be upgraded.  They should, as Schiit employs a modular approach.  I've been on the fence waiting because I want to upgrade my system.  Almost pulled the trigger on the Teac, Xdac and the Mytek but I'm holding off until more companies enter the fray and drive down prices.  Hopefully, we will have several options in the $1K range.  That would be a nice sweetspot. 

Cheers,
J
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: ted_b on 9 May 2013, 02:32 pm
Jackman,
As I posted, the upgrade to existing W4S DAC2s (link shows it too) is $350.
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: jackman on 9 May 2013, 02:53 pm
Jackman,
As I posted, the upgrade to existing W4S DAC2s (link shows it too) is $350.

Thanks, sorry.... :oops:

Lots of cool DACS coming out and upgrades as well.  Makes my decision more difficult but the competition is good for consumers. 
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: ted_b on 9 May 2013, 03:30 pm
Amen to that!
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: wisnon on 9 May 2013, 08:00 pm
DSD playback is now more or less mainstream on Dacs.

Game, set, match.
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: mav52 on 15 May 2013, 02:00 pm

Quote
DSD playback is now more or less mainstream on Dacs.

And all we need now is a lot more content.. 
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: wisnon on 15 May 2013, 04:13 pm
We have a LOT, at leat 3,000 pure DSD albums and another 1,500 analog transfers. What we need is more NEW stuff and a bit more variety.
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: bplexico on 16 May 2013, 04:23 am
We have a LOT, at leat 3,000 pure DSD albums and another 1,500 analog transfers. What we need is more NEW stuff and a bit more variety.

I had no idea there were over 4,500 offerings,negating some percentage that were actually PCM transfers, that is still none too shabby. Sadly though many are no longer available.

Also is it really true that there are 3,000 pure DSD albums? I thought a good many of those were analog transfers as opposed to recordings made via DSD...

EDIT: Well there do indeed to have been over 5,000 titles released over the years, so I defer to your research.
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: firedog on 16 May 2013, 04:51 am
I think if you check thoroughly, you'll see that the number of titles is more like 7500-7800.

Unfortunately the pure DSD is almost all Classical or "folk". But many of the analogue to DSD conversions sound great - better than other digital versions of the same material.

I don't see the big labels doing much DSD recording - they're all invested in PCM technology for hi-res.

But SACD is still coming out. There are new releases - just not really in pop/rock/etc. SACD is much more active in the Japanese market and they are still releasing new material and making new remasters of classic rock (e.g. the Who) that sound really good. The new e-Onkyo music store in Japan has DSD downloads and also a lot of transfers of Analog to DSD or DSD to 24/192 PCM. The DSD to 24-192 may not be the ultimate format, but I and others think they sound really good.

Note: e-Onkyo site - use Google Chrome so it will automatically translate the pages from Japanese.
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: christopher3393 on 16 May 2013, 10:56 am
Firedog: Thanks for that info.
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: Phil A on 16 May 2013, 11:39 am
sa-cd.net shows 8,640 titles.  However, there are a bunch on there that are out-of-print. So probably the estimate in the prior post is realistic.
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: ted_b on 16 May 2013, 01:13 pm
Of the approx 7200 SACDS, there are 2800 native DSD recordings, and another 1000 analog-to-DSD masterings.  (Note: of the remaining,, some are unidentifiable, and some are PCM recordings that don't exist in the hirez PCM catalogs.  The final subcategory, PCM-to-DSD recordings that also exist in the hirez PCM disc or download world, like Robert's nice BIS SACD recordings, are clearly wastes of time to find and rip, and better to listen to in available PCM...assuming your DAC handles one as good as the other).  Anyway.....that's a "boatload" of new hirez discoveries.  Why not go after them?

I posted this back in December.  I would stand by the 7200-7500 count. 8500 seems awfully high; there is likely double counting going on, even in the OOP.
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: wisnon on 16 May 2013, 04:22 pm
Good reminder.

Dont forget that when you posted this back then, SA-CD.net only listed 7600 titles and now they are up to 8600. :green:
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: ejn1 on 9 Jun 2013, 09:20 am
I'm upgrading my system and have a Auralic Vega on order but it's probably 3-4 weeks backordered.   I'm going to try with a new pair of speakers which are supposedly extremely detailed but would not call bright from what I've read and heard... Audio Physic Virgo 25s...   It's the same combination the dealer has in his personal setup and he can't say enough about it so I will soon find out first hand.  He said he was going to purchase the more expensive MBL dac and was blown away by the Auralic Vega and went with it instead.   I don't have Ted's vast comps but I will be upgrading from a Leema Acoustics Elements DAC that I use in a pre/DAC combination.  BTW, the Leema DAC includes a nice quality analog volume control so I'm eager to compare the digital volume control against the Vega.   
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: mav52 on 9 Jun 2013, 02:17 pm
We have a LOT, at leat 3,000 pure DSD albums and another 1,500 analog transfers. What we need is more NEW stuff and a bit more variety.

I guess we need more should have echoed your NEW stuff.   I've never got into classical which seems to be the major musical taste for DSD these days and I'm not even sure where to start with classical music... I've always been a classic rock, blues and soft jazz and bluegrass instrumental person, so although I have a high number of SACD's supporting my music taste, I sure would like to see some NEW stuff. Most of the DSD releases I see are from old music.  Anyway I still enjoy what I have.
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: wisnon on 9 Jun 2013, 02:46 pm
Exactly Mav.

While we wish for more new stuff, there's plenty of old stuff to enjoy. Choice is good in this domain, we can have the best of DSD and PCM pklayback so as to handle all the material out there...
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: hi5harry on 9 Jun 2013, 02:50 pm
Hey Mav, check out the DSDfile.com and buy their two samplers. They are $12.95 each and have some of the music you are looking for.
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: mav52 on 9 Jun 2013, 08:30 pm
Hey Mav, check out the DSDfile.com and buy their two samplers. They are $12.95 each and have some of the music you are looking for.

Thank you for the site hi5harry
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: Russtafarian on 10 Jun 2013, 11:22 pm
Hmmm...  Interesting entry from Denon.  Stereo SACD player with 24/192 & DSD (DoP) asynchronous USB input. 

http://www.whathifi.com/news/denon-announces-upmarket-stereo-player-and-amp-combination-teases-innovative-all-in-one-tv-soun (http://www.whathifi.com/news/denon-announces-upmarket-stereo-player-and-amp-combination-teases-innovative-all-in-one-tv-soun)

http://www.audiofil.eu/sklep-internetowy/details/1403/13/odtwarzacze-cd/sacd/denon-dcd-1520ae-odtwarzacz-cd-z-dac-nowosc-audiofil.eu.html (http://www.audiofil.eu/sklep-internetowy/details/1403/13/odtwarzacze-cd/sacd/denon-dcd-1520ae-odtwarzacz-cd-z-dac-nowosc-audiofil.eu.html)

Clearly targeted to the two-channel market. No Blu-Ray, DVD-A, HDMI, etc.


Russ
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: wisnon on 17 Jun 2013, 04:24 pm
Submitted by Michael Lavorgna on April 25, 2013 - 3:52am. (Audiostream forum)

I just heard back from Chord....
And they are working on DSD128 for the Qute but do not have an estimated release date...yet.

Latest:

Q: Any ETA for DSD128 on the Qute?

Answer:
Today
4:22pm
Chord Electronics Ltd

Hi, thanks for your patience. We couldn't comment until recently, but we hope to have an announcement on this very soon.

Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: mav52 on 18 Jun 2013, 01:30 am
ted_b,  you still working on that review of the Chord QuteHD DSD? 
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: ted_b on 18 Jun 2013, 01:35 am
ted_b,  you still working on that review of the Chord QuteHD DSD?

yep   :)
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: mav52 on 18 Jun 2013, 03:22 am
yep   :)
ok  (http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d167/cpmavrick/Smiles/whistle.gif)
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: jeffreyfranz on 19 Jun 2013, 09:32 am
A wow moment:

Lampizator By-Fikus
HA !!! Finally - DSD done RIGHT !
 I am very excited to have created my first DSD DAC and done it without chips. I designed a pure tube, zero solid state active decoder and filter that does DSD conversion without silicon. It is not easy to make but so satisfying. It takes all formats and file types and plays them with vinyl quality. It is for me a new era of digital. And in accordance with my LampizatOr principles I have glowing tubes in the DAC.


http://www.lampizator.eu/newdac/lampizator/DSD_DAC.html (http://www.lampizator.eu/newdac/lampizator/DSD_DAC.html)


I know, right? I just found him/the site earlier tonight. I have been walking my way through this thread. When I got to the end, if no one had mentioned it, I was going to introduce the link. You beat me by one page, which is great. He looks like a really bright and interesting guy. And those designs... Whew. :-)
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: jeffreyfranz on 19 Jun 2013, 10:04 am
Ted:
I can't find your Sonore review no matter how I search it. Could you (or any nice person) post a link? Thanks, JT
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: Phil A on 19 Jun 2013, 11:38 am
I did a search of by user name and subject and some things showed up including the below:

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=116320.msg1218123#msg1218123

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=108750.msg1119125#msg1119125


Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: wisnon on 19 Jun 2013, 12:21 pm
Ted:
I can't find your Sonore review no matter how I search it. Could you (or any nice person) post a link? Thanks, JT

Reply #3 in this very thread!


from: ted_b on 20 Oct 2012, 04:51 pm

Although there are many DSD DACS now available, or soon to be, i have only heard three inhouse.  here is how I summarize them:

Meitner MA-1 ($7k list) Does all things wonderfully; is a state of the art DAC that is the foundation of my big rig.  This DAC has native 1 bit proprietary chips and converts everything coming in to DSD128.  It presents both DSD and PCM with aplomb.  If I won the lottery I'd get it's bigger brother, the EMM DAC2X simply because of the ceramic analog boards, but it's $15k list.   

Mytek Stereo 192-DSD DAC ($1600 List)  Is not only the Swiss Army knife of DSD DACs (USB1, USB 2.0, firewire, toslink, coax, remote volume capability, preamp version has analog inputs, mastering version has pro SDIF inputs) but is the value leader.  it's sound is 90% of the Meitner, and it use the ESS Sabre chip (not my fave) to the best I've heard.  it's pro pedigree shows in its stark neutrality and greta detail.  This DAC is comfortable in all setups EXCEPT those that are already slightly clinical or analytical sounding.  It mixes perfectly with tubes or ss.

Sonore eXD DAC ($1299 list)  This is a very dedicated USB DAC, no other inputs.  But it does USB wonderfully, whether in Linux, OSX or Windows..due to being USB Class 2 audio compliant (as is Meitner).  It is the yang to Mytek's yin.  If your system is warm, tubey or a bit rich already the eXD DAC may be too smooth for you.  I loved it and would have a tough time deciding if I hadn't already committed to the Mytek for my system no. 2.  Either are desert island DACs under $2k.

Playback Designs is another hi-end option.  DCS will finally upgrade their boxes to DSD, and then we have the exaSound, Benchmark, Ayre and a few others on the horizon.   
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: wisnon on 19 Jun 2013, 12:23 pm
Now we just await Ted's review of the Qute to see if it makes the sub $2K desert island Dac grade! Either in DSD or PCM.
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: wisnon on 19 Jun 2013, 12:25 pm

I know, right? I just found him/the site earlier tonight. I have been walking my way through this thread. When I got to the end, if no one had mentioned it, I was going to introduce the link. You beat me by one page, which is great. He looks like a really bright and interesting guy. And those designs... Whew. :-)

Yes he is indeed. I managed to speak with him last night and he is amassing parts to make a first batch of 10 to 20 dedicated DSD Dacs. I figure he will be good to go from early July. The first level 5 dual Dac goes out today to a lucky customer in the UK.
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: jeffreyfranz on 20 Jun 2013, 12:10 am
I did a search of by user name and subject and some things showed up including the below:

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=116320.msg1218123#msg1218123 (http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=116320.msg1218123#msg1218123)

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=108750.msg1119125#msg1119125 (http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=108750.msg1119125#msg1119125)


Reply #3 in this very thread.



OK, thanks, fellas. I did actually see reply #3. I was thinking during my various searches that I was going to come upon a link to a full-on review. I guess I glossed over the term "mini-review" that I think Ted used. All good.
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: ted_b on 20 Jun 2013, 12:14 am
I did much more on the eXD/Sonore over on computer audiophile (a mini-review).  My paragraph here is hardly an anything-review.  :)
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: jeffreyfranz on 20 Jun 2013, 12:30 am
Question (everybody's fave question?):


Ted & Friends:
OK, I have the shpilkes bad to get a DAC. I have never seen such an explosion of exciting, quality gear at relatively decent prices. And you folks have confirmed my bias toward all things DSD. In my price range, from easily affordable to just-barely-really-shouldn't, the options I can remember look something like this.
My priorities: Balanced circuit, crystal clear but sweet if I can get it sound, not grating or abrasive, high-quality and reliability, ease of use. Any and all advice is welcome and appreciated. Thank you in advance. - Jeffrey

PS: Oops, I forgot the Sonore/Simple Design. Throw that in.
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: InfernoSTi on 20 Jun 2013, 01:39 am
And the Teac UD-501
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: krikor on 20 Jun 2013, 01:40 am
If listing all the DSD DACs (as I am also considering getting one due to all the hoopla), available now:
Wyred4Sound DAC-2 DSD - $1600
Wyred4Sound DAC-2 DSDse - $2500
Benchmark DAC2 HGC - $2000

And rumor has it Schiit has something coming at the lower priced end of the range.
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: mgalusha on 20 Jun 2013, 02:21 am
Include the Lynx Hilo at $2,495, it's capable of 24/192 and DSD64 but not DXD or DSD128. I have one on loan at the moment and it's really nice and is also a very good A/D converter.

Of the ones you have listed I've owned the Mytek and the Auralic VEGA. I also have a the TEAC UD-501 in at the moment and spent a week recently with the exaSound E20. Ted's heard a lot more DSD DAC's than I have but I've been fortunate enough to have played with a variety the last few months.

For my tastes I'd rank them as follows, based on what I've heard in my system.

Auralic VEGA
exaSound E20 or the Lynx Hilo - both made me smile a lot. The Lynx gets the value award if you want to record. They were not here at the same time so I can't say directly which I'd prefer but neither left me wanting, same price.
TEAC UD-501
Mytek DAC192.

I've only got a few hours on the TEAC but I prefer it to my memory of the Mytek. I really like the VEGA but one must try various settings and filters. I had a few friends over and we could make it nearly indistinguishable from the E20 and both are very good, can't go wrong with any of them IMO.

mike

Question (everybody's fave question?):


Ted & Friends:
OK, I have the shpilkes bad to get a DAC. I have never seen such an explosion of exciting, quality gear at relatively decent prices. And you folks have confirmed my bias toward all things DSD. In my price range, from easily affordable to just-barely-really-shouldn't, the options I can remember look something like this.
  • Concero. New version about to arrive, $800. Worth it to go one level higher?
  • Matrix X-Sabre. Here now, $1150(?). Worth it to go one level higher?
  • Mytek Digital DSD. Here now, Swiss Army knife, but some say a little brutal, sonically, $1600. Worth it to go one level higher?
  • Exesound (think I got the name wrong) Mk. II. Here now, limited inputs but looks great, $2500. Worth it to go one level higher?
  • Lampizator. Here now? Looks mind-boggling if it's for real, pretty, tubes, $3000 (I think). Worth it to go one level higher?
  • Aurevic Vega. Here now, back ordered (?), gorgeous, $3500.
My priorities: Balanced circuit, crystal clear but sweet if I can get it sound, not grating or abrasive, high-quality and reliability, ease of use. Any and all advice is welcome and appreciated. Thank you in advance. - Jeffrey

PS: Oops, I forgot the Sonore/Simple Design. Throw that in.
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: jeffreyfranz on 20 Jun 2013, 03:24 am
And the Teac UD-501


Double oops. Yes, and the Teac. Looks like an awful lot of product for near-thebottom $$$.
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: jeffreyfranz on 20 Jun 2013, 03:32 am
If listing all the DSD DACs (as I am also considering getting one due to all the hoopla), available now:
Wyred4Sound DAC-2 DSD - $1600
Wyred4Sound DAC-2 DSDse - $2500
Benchmark DAC2 HGC - $2000

And rumor has it Schiit has something coming at the lower priced end of the range.


Well, yes, I am the man with no memory. I shoud have included the Benchmark DAC 2, which I am aware of, though I have seen a qualm expressed here and there on the boards. I would willingly go for it if someone or more persons with good experience on several contenders, like Mike, below, advocated for it as a world-beater. The Wyred4Sound stuff I know nothing about--didn't forget 'em, just dont know anything. I have seen posters putting down the sonics of their non-DSD dacs, but I do not know, myself.


The Schiit people have a lot of hostile-speak re DSD. I would be surprised if they came on with DSD. In fact, in their website announcement for the forthcoming Statement DAC, they said explicitly it would not have DSD. Could be sandbagging but why?
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: jeffreyfranz on 20 Jun 2013, 03:36 am
Include the Lynx Hilo at $2,495, it's capable of 24/192 and DSD64 but not DXD or DSD128. I have one on loan at the moment and it's really nice and is also a very good A/D converter.

Of the ones you have listed I've owned the Mytek and the Auralic VEGA. I also have a the TEAC UD-501 in at the moment and spent a week recently with the exaSound E20. Ted's heard a lot more DSD DAC's than I have but I've been fortunate enough to have played with a variety the last few months.

For my tastes I'd rank them as follows, based on what I've heard in my system.

Auralic VEGA
exaSound E20 or the Lynx Hilo - both made me smile a lot. The Lynx gets the value award if you want to record. They were not here at the same time so I can't say directly which I'd prefer but neither left me wanting, same price.
TEAC UD-501
Mytek DAC192.

I've only got a few hours on the TEAC but I prefer it to my memory of the Mytek. I really like the VEGA but one must try various settings and filters. I had a few friends over and we could make it nearly indistinguishable from the E20 and both are very good, can't go wrong with any of them IMO.

mike


Mike: The Teac could of course be a bargain leader. Could you elaborate on why you put it ahead of the much discussed Mytek and how close (if at all) it got to the exaSound DAC in your system? Thanks.
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: Russtafarian on 20 Jun 2013, 05:01 pm
John Gatski's review of the Benchmark DAC2 D offers some brief comments on the Benchmark as compared to the Mytek and Teac:

http://everythingaudionetwork.blogspot.com/ (http://everythingaudionetwork.blogspot.com/)

Also, Steven Stone reviewed the Mytek, Benchmark, and Lynx Hilo in the current TAS.  I don't think the review is accessible on-line.  Not that it matters.  He doesn't spill much ink differentiating between the sound of the DACs.

Russ
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: jeffreyfranz on 21 Jun 2013, 01:50 am
Thanks, Russ. Yes I saw Gatski's review, and I know he was quite enthusiastic for the DAC 2 (as he seems to be for most things he reviews). He also raves for the Mytek and the Oppo 105. It is hard to make differentiations on that basis, or maybe they are just all really that good. That would be great, if that were true. Then one could just pick the best buy or combination of features desired. I also have yet to check out the Wyred4Sound and Lynx Hilo that were mentioned here yesterday.


I had been looking for some time before I discovered Audiocircle and begin asking/posting here. I am beginning to weary of obsessing over these things, which is kind of the way I am. I may back away for awhile, or I may just buy a Teac HD-501, Matrix X-Sabre or Simple Design/Sonore unit--all on the lower side, price wise. Based on the impressions I get over at Head-Fi.org, I would think the Matrix might be the easiest to resell later if there was a need.


I also think, in a higher price category and due to familiarity, that the Benchmark DAC 2 might be one of the easier ones to resell later. I have thought that I might go that route if I didn't want to try to stretch my budget all the way to a exaSound e20 Mk. II ($500 difference). The reason I keep mentioning potential reselling is because I am buying blind. These things aren't down at Best Buy to examine and audition. I think one important thing to remember is, things change so rapidly in the DAC market, it may not always be the wisest thing to spend large sums on today's I-gotta-have-it sexy DAC. Unless of course, one is rolling in dough. But that is not me.


I would sure like to hear back from mgalusha/Mike soon (see his detailed post, above), as he clearly has firsthand knowledge of several of my top candidates. I would love to hear Ted chime in, as well, but I know he already has answered Qs from relative noobs like me a bazillion times. One thing's for sure, it's embarrassment of riches time in Dac Land.  :icon_lol:
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: ted_b on 21 Jun 2013, 02:00 am
Jeffrey,
George at Exasound, Michal at Mytek, even Xuanqian at Auralic...they will all give you 30 day demos/trials/returns (use my name  :) ).   There is nothing that is anywhere close to hearing the DAC in your own system with your own ears (and music/room/setup).  I would not buy any DAC blindly. 

I would make darn sure you hear the Chord QuteHD ($1700, a few more $$ for a good plug-n-play 12V linear ps, like with the Exasound design) too.  Each offer their own sound palette, and strengths on certain areas.  I agree that the most similar will likley be the B-Mark and Mytek...assuming you don't need firewire (Mytek only).
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: jeffreyfranz on 21 Jun 2013, 02:20 am
Thanks, Ted. That's good advice, of course (the auditioning), and much appreciated. I think I'll give Michal a call tomorrow and begin the process. May as well start with the most cost-effective of those three you just mentioned. At the least, I could rule it out and move on to further auditions.  :scratch: Idea! Or... I could get two or three loaners in at once and do a compare-and-contrast.
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: mgalusha on 21 Jun 2013, 06:19 pm
I would sure like to hear back from mgalusha/Mike soon (see his detailed post, above), as he clearly has firsthand knowledge of several of my top candidates. I would love to hear Ted chime in, as well, but I know he already has answered Qs from relative noobs like me a bazillion times. One thing's for sure, it's embarrassment of riches time in Dac Land.  :icon_lol:

In my system and for my tastes I found the Mytek a little forward/aggressive on PCM. I liked it on DSD and while I've had a friend rip all my SACD's, I still have far more PCM than DSD, so the performance on PCM takes precedence. I also don't care for the DC offset on the Mytek's outputs. This is normal behavior per Michal @ Mytek and for a lot of folks isn't a problem but it was for me as my preamp and amps are direct coupled and pass DC, something that ultimately I decided I would not accept.

Not sure how close the TEAC comes to the exaSound but this weekend I'm planning on spending some quality time with the Lynx, TEAC and VEGA. The TEAC has been playing all week and I am shipping the Lynx back to it's owner on Monday, so with any luck I can lock myself in the listening room and play geek for a while. I made note of the settings that make the VEGA sound very much like the exaSound, so that may provide some idea of how they compare. I did use a well filtered linear PS when I had the exaSound, so it was fairly optimal. The others all have internal power supplies but I'm using the same cords on all of them, a DIY version of the Less Loss cable. I'll try and provide more detailed information after I do some level matched comparisons.

mike
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: hi5harry on 21 Jun 2013, 06:30 pm
The only thing I wanted mention is my Auralic Vega took around 500 hours to sound it's best. Before that I wasn't sure it was going to work out in my system. Now I am really enjoying it!
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: Sonny on 21 Jun 2013, 06:50 pm
All this talk about DSD Dacs...
Well, how much music downloads are there that is DSD downloads?  Minimal?
So, though it's nice to have the feature, I doubt if it's worth it until there are more DSD Downloads, unless someone is using a PS3 to rip SACDs.

Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: ted_b on 21 Jun 2013, 07:01 pm
All this talk about DSD Dacs...
Well, how much music downloads are there that is DSD downloads?  Minimal?
So, though it's nice to have the feature, I doubt if it's worth it until there are more DSD Downloads, unless someone is using a PS3 to rip SACDs.

If you doubt it's worth then why are you here?  Many of us have hundreds of DSD albums (if not more  :wink: ).  And DSD download sites increase monthly.  Oh...and the DSD DACs we are discussing (except for the newest Lampizator) all do PCM too..
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: wisnon on 21 Jun 2013, 09:44 pm
Thanks, Ted. That's good advice, of course (the auditioning), and much appreciated. I think I'll give Michal a call tomorrow and begin the process. May as well start with the most cost-effective of those three you just mentioned. At the least, I could rule it out and move on to further auditions.  :scratch: Idea! Or... I could get two or three loaners in at once and do a compare-and-contrast.

The Chord is NOT balanced though...and only does DSD64 for now. It seems they have a DSD128 update planned soon.

Another to consider is the $4500 Resonnesence Invicta....it can use SDXC cards and as a transport, these are GREAT SQ.
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: wisnon on 21 Jun 2013, 09:49 pm
All this talk about DSD Dacs...
Well, how much music downloads are there that is DSD downloads?  Minimal?
So, though it's nice to have the feature, I doubt if it's worth it until there are more DSD Downloads, unless someone is using a PS3 to rip SACDs.



KillJOY!
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: jeffreyfranz on 22 Jun 2013, 04:50 am
In my system and for my tastes I found the Mytek a little forward/aggressive on PCM. I liked it on DSD and while I've had a friend rip all my SACD's, I still have far more PCM than DSD, so the performance on PCM takes precedence. I also don't care for the DC offset on the Mytek's outputs. This is normal behavior per Michal @ Mytek and for a lot of folks isn't a problem but it was for me as my preamp and amps are direct coupled and pass DC, something that ultimately I decided I would not accept.

Not sure how close the TEAC comes to the exaSound but this weekend I'm planning on spending some quality time with the Lynx, TEAC and VEGA. The TEAC has been playing all week and I am shipping the Lynx back to it's owner on Monday, so with any luck I can lock myself in the listening room and play geek for a while. That's good geek news to me, for the low price of the TEAC, should it prove out, and for another reason I will share below.I made note of the settings that make the VEGA sound very much like the exaSound, so that may provide some idea of how they compare. I did use a well filtered linear PS when I had the exaSound, so it was fairly optimal. The others all have internal power supplies but I'm using the same cords on all of them, a DIY version of the Less Loss cable. I'll try and provide more detailed information after I do some level matched comparisons.

mike


Mike: I did a fair amount of research today. One of my fantasies in the years leading up to my current retirement was that I would have all the time I wished for doing hobbies-restoring old Dynakit Mk. III mono tube amps (4), reconfiguring Transcendent T-8 mono OTL amps to use commonly available tubes (vs. the old 3-nipple EL509s, now virtually extinct), learning piano and guitar, and maybe putting together a very modest recording set-up in the man cave. Today I discovered that the Lynx Hilo--that small box--is a veritable recording studio in a can. OK, slight exaggeration, but it is a truly amazing machine, and they turn it into an even better,more powerful one all the time with firmware updated via FGPA. I have been saying I didn't really want to spend near the top of my budget on a DAC alone at this time,. but now I must think about how much those hobby activities (the music playing and recording) might matter to me. If I had to pay separately for al the functions in the Hilo, it's almost as if the DAC is cheap. The sound is apparently of the squeaky clean or crystal clear variety but not forward or brutal like the Mytek. One reviewer even described it as warmer and sweeter vs. some other pro DAC. Very tempting, but I'm still hoping the TEAC HD-501 turns in a strong performance. A Hilo I could buy now I could also buy later. Meanwhile, the HD-501 is one-third the price. BTW, the Hilo has an available battery pack for location recording.


Thanks for your reply.  Jeffrey
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: jeffreyfranz on 22 Jun 2013, 05:01 am
If you doubt it's worth then why are you here?  Many of us have hundreds of DSD albums (if not more  ;) ).  And DSD download sites increase monthly.  Oh...and the DSD DACs we are discussing (except for the newest Lampizator) all do PCM too..


BTW, Ted, I ended up on the Channel D/Pure Music site today. I'm certain you already know this, but the product literature claimed their player can process DSD (presumably DoP?) using any DAC. Is the only advantage of these specific DACs to do native DSD? Also, see Kalmin Rubinson's column in the recent Stereophile. He is sounding pretty hung-ho for DSD. - JT  :thumb:
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: jcotner on 22 Jun 2013, 05:01 am

 Today I discovered that the Lynx Hilo--that small box--is a veritable recording studio in a can. OK, slight exaggeration, but it is a truly amazing machine, and they turn it into an even better,more powerful one all the time with firmware updated via FGPA.


I have just spent a good section of the evening listening to some great tunes on
my Linx. Nothing but happy with mine.
They can be had around $2125 from time to time.
And I use my Hilo in a studio. Came to the same conclusion as you and
bit the bullet.
One of the things I never expected was the strengh of the headphone
section.
I wanted the A/D or I think I would have gone with the Mytek, since there
is around a grand difference in price.
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: jeffreyfranz on 22 Jun 2013, 06:31 am
I have just spent a good section of the evening listening to some great tunes on
my Linx. Nothing but happy with mine.
They can be had around $2125 from time to time.
And I use my Hilo in a studio. Came to the same conclusion as you and
bit the bullet.
One of the things I never expected was the strengh of the headphone
section.
I wanted the A/D or I think I would have gone with the Mytek, since there
is around a grand difference in price.


I haven't seen them quite that low. Can you tell me were? Thanks.
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: jeffreyfranz on 22 Jun 2013, 06:38 am
Ted, Mike, Anyone:
I need a SACD player (preferred) or at least a get-by CD player (e.g., Marantz 5004, 6004). My TTs are both down and my CD/DVDA player died recently. I have zero music in the house. Price-wise, I'm thinking Oppo 103 or 105 or 95, or maybe one of the Denons in the $500--1000 range. Any ideas will help. 
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: ted_b on 22 Jun 2013, 01:47 pm
Jeffrey,
An Oppo 105 would do well.  Then later, when your ship comes in, have Dan Wright mod it.

Pure Music, Audirvana Plus, JRiver, etc etc will NOT play DSD to non-DSD DACs.  They will simply convert DSD files to PCM (at a sample rate you specify in their setups).  For DSD DACs they will use DoP (to oversimplify: a 24 bit container that includes the native DSD file along for the ride) to send native DSD, or if using ASIO they will go direct.  Kinda moot point...either is native DSD.
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: jeffreyfranz on 22 Jun 2013, 06:53 pm
Thanks, Ted. Got it.
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: jcotner on 23 Jun 2013, 07:43 pm

I haven't seen them quite that low. Can you tell me were? Thanks.

PM sent
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: jeffreyfranz on 25 Jun 2013, 02:39 pm
I think already sent you a thank-you, but just in case I didn't: Thank you. :-)
Title: !!
Post by: jeffreyfranz on 26 Jun 2013, 05:25 am
Took the plunge (on the budget level) and ordered my first DSD DAC today, the TEAC UD-501. Music Direct claims "In Stock and ships today." There has been no confirmation of this as yet, and I rather expect it to arrive sometime next week. Oh, boy!  :D
Title: Re: !!
Post by: InfernoSTi on 1 Jul 2013, 01:45 am
Took the plunge (on the budget level) and ordered my first DSD DAC today, the TEAC UD-501. Music Direct claims "In Stock and ships today." There has been no confirmation of this as yet, and I rather expect it to arrive sometime next week. Oh, boy!  :D

Enjoy!  That is what many folks have and they all seem to rave about it...myself included!

Best,
John
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: jeffreyfranz on 7 Jul 2013, 07:02 pm
Thanks, Inferno. I have been off the boards for a few days, but I have got in a fair amount of listening. Yes, the sound is quite amazing. The only other DAC I ever owned was the Pass Labs D1, back in the day. It was a fine piece, with remote controlled analog outputs, balanced outs, etc., but of course back then it was only 16/44. I wish I still had it, just for it's beautiful build quality. But frankly, it never sounded like this: the little Teac is knocking my socks off!


Thank you all who patiently answered my questioning posts. The only thing that I feel is lacking in the UD-501 is the absence of variable outputs in preamp mode, necessitating use of a preamp vs. direct feed to power amps. I am mostly a headphone listener these days, however, so it's not a huge issue.   :D
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: shaizada on 8 Jul 2013, 05:48 am
I finally have a horse in this race!  :D

I listened to a regular Chord QBD76 and really fell for the sound coming out of this player.  I also had a Chord QuteHD DSD dac with the normal power supply to compare with.  The QBD76 was just stunning and more involving on plain CD's than the QuteHD.  However, with DSD being played through Audirvana Plus and the QuteHD, it was just more involving.

Hence, I bit the bullet and picked up a Chord QBD76HDSD.  Just stunning!  It surpasses both the other Chord Dacs when playing DSD and high res PCM.  Regular 16/44.1 sounds the same as the QBD76 non-DSD version.

Also one thing of note, the balanced output of the Chord takes the sound to a different level compared to the single ended output.  Just more there. 

Here is a generic picture (ie. not mine), but mine looks EXACTLY the same...black:
(http://blog.avstore.ro/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/QBD76.jpg)
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: wisnon on 8 Jul 2013, 09:09 am
Did you hear the Qute with a quality Linear Power supply?
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: Russtafarian on 8 Jul 2013, 05:24 pm
Quote
Hence, I bit the bullet and picked up a Chord QBD76HDSD.

Bring it over!

Russ
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: wisnon on 8 Jul 2013, 06:11 pm
Russ, you lucky man. It seems that U will get to hear the big brother!
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: shaizada on 9 Jul 2013, 03:58 am
Wisnon,

I didn't get to hear it with a good quality linear power supply.  I heard the QuteHD with the regular packaged power supply.

Russ, whenever we plan to meet next, I will gladly bring it over.  The sound is really something else...never cared much for digital, but seems like we are getting really close to what those magical bits can do....STILL does not beat my analog setup yet.  I'm sure we will get there one day, but that is not today :)
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: wisnon on 9 Jul 2013, 08:53 am
Wisnon,

I didn't get to hear it with a good quality linear power supply.  I heard the QuteHD with the regular packaged power supply.

Russ, whenever we plan to meet next, I will gladly bring it over.  The sound is really something else...never cared much for digital, but seems like we are getting really close to what those magical bits can do....STILL does not beat my analog setup yet.  I'm sure we will get there one day, but that is not today :)

Thanks.

That is a pity as it would be a good opportunity to see how close the Qute gets when fully tweaked out. The Chord are Transient Champs! RBCD should be gorgeous. I wonder what difference an iFi Audio iTube would make to the big Chord?

Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: Active-6way on 29 Jul 2013, 02:01 pm
Another DSD contender : http://www.head-fi.org/t/673033/review-yulong-audio-sabre-da8-reference-dac (http://www.head-fi.org/t/673033/review-yulong-audio-sabre-da8-reference-dac) Also has an pretty decent amp in it.

Seems to be pretty good on par with x-sabre, wondering if there is much between these two and a chord qutehd
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: mikitocasellas on 5 Aug 2013, 02:26 am
If listing all the DSD DACs (as I am also considering getting one due to all the hoopla), available now:
Wyred4Sound DAC-2 DSD - $1600
Wyred4Sound DAC-2 DSDse - $2500
Benchmark DAC2 HGC - $2000

And rumor has it Schiit has something coming at the lower priced end of the range.

Hello everybody,

I am new here, and i am hoping for anybody who has heard or had the chance to compare this W4S DAC2 DSD SE with the AURALIC VEGA?
 
Best Regards
 
Mike
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: rklein on 5 Aug 2013, 02:18 pm
I am sending my Exasound E20 DSD DAC back to George so that he can upgrade it to MKIII status.  While DSD is obviously sublime, PCM is really fantastic sounding.  I am running the E20 with a Paul Hynes SR3-12 PS.

I will report back after I get the upgraded E20 back in my system.

Keep in mind that the VC on the E20 is pretty darn good.  I recently had bought an ADCOM GFP-750 and was running it both in passive and active with the E20 and decided that the E20 by itself sounded better.  Only when I insert a preamp the quality of a Bent TAP does the E20 sound even more musical than it already is.

I have also run the E20 off of a 12v battery and it sounds very good this way as well.  The Hynes just takes it to a better place. :D

Regards,

Randy
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: wisnon on 5 Aug 2013, 04:47 pm
Randy,

U live near Ted, no? Have you tried the Qute with your Hynes PSU?
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: rklein on 5 Aug 2013, 06:47 pm
Wisnon:

I do live fairly close to Ted.  No, I have not heard the Chord with the Hynes PS.  Ted would be better suited to answer your question on the Qute DAC as he too has, I believe two Hynes PS's.  One of them being the SR3-12.  I would have assumed that he probably has tried the Chord with both stock and the Hynes' PS.

Regards,

Randy
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: mav52 on 10 Aug 2013, 02:19 pm
Well if ya see ted, tell him to hurry up with this review of the Chord DAC  :roll:
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: wisnon on 10 Aug 2013, 04:13 pm
Wisnon:

I do live fairly close to Ted.  No, I have not heard the Chord with the Hynes PS.  Ted would be better suited to answer your question on the Qute DAC as he too has, I believe two Hynes PS's.  One of them being the SR3-12.  I would have assumed that he probably has tried the Chord with both stock and the Hynes' PS.

Regards,

Randy

Randy,
I have a fair idea what Ted thinks, I was looking for your opinion. Here is a tip...Check it out with the PH PSU!!! I think you will be pleased.
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: Blackstone on 10 Aug 2013, 11:27 pm
Has anyone heard the new Ayre QB-9 DSD? It is an entirely new DAC. Updated analog circuitry as well as DSD functionality.
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: wisnon on 11 Aug 2013, 11:12 am
Feedback is excellent so far.
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: this_is_vv on 19 Aug 2013, 03:16 pm
for some lucky backers they could get a DSD dac for 99$...down the link it shows it supports DSD

http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/gavn8r/geek-a-new-usb-awesomifier-for-headphones?ref=live


V
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: jackman on 19 Aug 2013, 05:00 pm
for some lucky backers they could get a DSD dac for 99$...down the link it shows it supports DSD

http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/gavn8r/geek-a-new-usb-awesomifier-for-headphones?ref=live


V

I'm curious about that DAC but find it strange there is no inflation about the performance anywhere.  No measurements or non-marketing descriptions available.  I'm sure we will start to see more low prices DSD dacs in the future.  My little odac sounds great with 24/96 but it doesn't do hi res beyond 24/96 or DSD. 

I look forward to comments on the low priced DAC because it could be a game changer.  I also wish they would post more specific performance info.

Cheers

Jack
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: mgalusha on 19 Aug 2013, 05:14 pm
I look forward to comments on the low priced DAC because it could be a game changer.  I also wish they would post more specific performance info.

There is a bit. http://mustgeekout.blogspot.com/2013/08/geek-vs-others.html
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: jackman on 19 Aug 2013, 05:38 pm
There is a bit. http://mustgeekout.blogspot.com/2013/08/geek-vs-others.html

Thank you! 
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: santacore on 19 Aug 2013, 06:18 pm
I just committed to one. I've been thinking about picking up a used unit like the Dragonfly for some of the audio editing I do on my laptop. This comes in a great price point, covers all the current technical bases, and will work for my needs. I look forward to hearing the finished version!
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: ted_b on 19 Aug 2013, 06:26 pm
Yes, I got in at $139, too, a couple of days ago.  Looks promising.
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: rklein on 20 Aug 2013, 01:10 am
$139 is gone gone gone... :bawl:

Had to take a reverse mortgage out on the house to get in at $159.

Regards,

Randy

Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: rklein on 20 Aug 2013, 01:20 am
BTW, George K. over at Exasound is shipping back my updated E20 DSD DAC.  As soon as I break it in for a bit, I will be reporting back to all of you on the upgraded MKIII E20.

Regards,

Randy
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: mav52 on 20 Aug 2013, 12:46 pm
BTW, George K. over at Exasound is shipping back my updated E20 DSD DAC.  As soon as I break it in for a bit, I will be reporting back to all of you on the upgraded MKIII E20.

Regards,

Randy

I'm looking closely at this dac along with the W2S DAC2se
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: hifial on 20 Aug 2013, 05:11 pm
Hi all. I have had the exaSound e20 MKIII for a few weeks now and I must say it is kick*ss sounding. Until about a month ago I owned the PSA PW MKII DAC + Bridge. I am one of the first owners when the MKI first came out. As great sounding as the PSA DAC "was", that is the problem. Others have started to surpass it now and for less money.

I am waiting on a replacement e20 MKIII with the new custom clock option (from .13ps rms to .082ps rms). Now if I am right the .13ps is only .01 better then the base clock in the MSB Tech DACs (.14ps). The optional MSB clock is only .005 better then the (only $100 more) optional e20 clock, while the optional e20 clock is .058 better then the standard MSB clock. 
Now I realize that the e20 clocks may not be the famous Femto clocks but still. And I realize that it takes more then a low jitter clock to make a DAC sound great. And I hold the MSB DACs in very high esteem. But I also think they are WAY over priced in todays choices of great sounding DACs.

More later.

Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: wisnon on 20 Aug 2013, 06:43 pm
I never understand all the fuss about clocks and jitter as the end all, be all to good sound...sigh.
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: hifial on 20 Aug 2013, 08:57 pm
wisnon, Please do not get the impression from my post that I am at all suggesting that clocks and jitter are the only thing that matters. Far from it.

BUT, it does matter a great deal more then most realize. As DOES power supplies. And there are more. However, all I was trying to convey was that for the price of the e20 compared to MUCH MORE expensive DACs (like the MSB) you are getting a lot for your money in both specs and SOUND.

But I am curious. Have you ever compared a DAC with an ordinary jitter spec with one that had a very low jitter spec? What was your experience? And if so what brand and models were they? I am not trying to put you on the spot. I am really interested in your experience on this, if any.
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: wisnon on 20 Aug 2013, 10:21 pm
In general I agree with you. I think power supply and amplitude distortion is a bigger deal. However, lower jitter(spectrum) not point jitter is also a significant contributor.

I think many attempts to get low point jitter scores defeat the purpose. Sort of how lowering Cholesterol level below and arbitrary benchmark with statins actually do more damage faster than doing nothing at all.
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: OzarkTom on 21 Aug 2013, 03:28 am
Sort of how lowering Cholesterol level below and arbitrary benchmark with statins actually do more damage faster than doing nothing at all.

And the right diet will lower your cholesterol faster than any statin can and with no side effects.
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: ltr317 on 21 Aug 2013, 03:46 am
And the right diet will lower your cholesterol faster than any statin can and with no side effects.

Unfortunately that approach doesn't work for everyone, including me.  After 4 years on a very healthy diet, my cholesterol was still too high.  For people like me, it's genetics.  I had to resort to statins and Omega 3 pills.  Now my cholesterol level is low. 
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: OzarkTom on 21 Aug 2013, 04:05 am
Unfortunately that approach doesn't work for everyone, including me.  After 4 years on a very healthy diet, my cholesterol was still too high.  For people like me, it's genetics.  I had to resort to statins and Omega 3 pills.  Now my cholesterol level is low.

But please do some more research on cholesterol. Too low cholesterol causes heart attacks. High triglycerides causes heart attacks much quicker than high cholesterol. Cutting out all of the grains and fructose from your diet lowers bad cholesterol, blood pressure, and triglycerides. It also keeps you from getting diabetes, which is now rampant.

It has nothing to do with genetics. That is a medical lie to keep you on their drugs.

Sorry to go off track on the subject.
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: wisnon on 21 Aug 2013, 05:42 am
But please do some more research on cholesterol. Too low cholesterol causes heart attacks. High triglycerides causes heart attacks much quicker than high cholesterol. Cutting out all of the grains and fructose from your diet lowers bad cholesterol, blood pressure, and triglycerides. It also keeps you from getting diabetes, which is now rampant.

It has nothing to do with genetics. That is a medical lie to keep you on their drugs.

Sorry to go off track on the subject.

Tom, please keep preaching it. We are in perfect agreement. As to Omega 3, please make sure that its Parent seed oil (flaxseed) and NOT fish oil (derivatives Omega 3=bad). Omega 3 MUST be taken in balance with Omega 6 too, roughly 1:2 ratio!

The body has NO regulatory mechanism for cholesterol and without cholesterol you die. Cholesterol is the transport mechanism that patches arterial walls. Lower it with drugs (not natural) and you risk medium rupture of said walls and even death.

End of rant now.
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: this_is_vv on 21 Aug 2013, 02:48 pm
$139 is gone gone gone... :bawl:

Had to take a reverse mortgage out on the house to get in at $159.

Regards,

Randy

Me 2 got in at $159...will get in sometime in January 2014 and then report it.... :)

V
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: Atlplasma on 21 Aug 2013, 03:10 pm
Tom, please keep preaching it. We are in perfect agreement. As to Omega 3, please make sure that its Parent seed oil (flaxseed) and NOT fish oil (derivatives Omega 3=bad). Omega 3 MUST be taken in balance with Omega 6 too, roughly 1:2 ratio!

The body has NO regulatory mechanism for cholesterol and without cholesterol you die. Cholesterol is the transport mechanism that patches arterial walls. Lower it with drugs (not natural) and you risk medium rupture of said walls and even death.

End of rant now.

Just one more cholesterol comment and then we can get back to DSD DAC.  :thumb: Gary Taubes has interesting article on cholesterol research and treatment at http://www.nytimes.com/2008/01/27/opinion/27taubes.html?_r=0
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: jackman on 22 Aug 2013, 09:36 pm
Has anyone seen this DSD DAC board?   I've been following a thread on DIY and wish I had the skill to wire this into something I could use, it's only ~$100 USD.  Hopefully and industrious person will market these as a finished product soon. 

http://jlsounds.com/index.html

http://www.ebay.com/itm/XMOS-DSD-384-kHz-32bit-USB-to-I2S-SPDIF-PCB-DAC-PCM5102-/251313662298?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3a8376295a#ht_1605wt_1255Link to product on eBay: 


Features of I2SoverUSB

-            XMOS 500 MIPS processor
-            Sampling frequencies: 44.1kHz, 48kHz, 88.2kHz, 96kHz, 176.4kHz, 192kHz,
             352.8kHz and 384kHz
-            16-, 24- and 32-bit resolution
-            I2S or right-justified data (external pin configuration) in 32-bit frame
-            DSD Audio over PCM frames. DSD64(2.822400MHz) and                                                 
DSD128(5.644800MHz) by method DoP with 0x05/0xFA markers
-            Two low jitter oscillators 45.158MHz and 49.152MHz
-            Input for external master clock
-            LP5900 ultra low noise linear power regulator                                           
-            No switch mode power supplies in the PCB board                                       
-            Galvanic isolation (outputs, two oscillators and reclock are after the isolator)
-            Output for DAC configuration in DSD mode
-            Automatic detection of data type (PCM or DSD)
-            Master clock outputs: 45.1584/49.1520MHz and 22.5792/24.5760MHz (I2S                   
22.5792/24.5760MHz are reclocked by edge from 45.1584/49.1520MHz)
-            Three different ways to power the board, possible configurations:
             -    Power by USB bus
             -    The USB part is powered by USB bus, but the generators and the reclock are fed by a separate external power supply
             -    Both the USB part and the generators with the reclock are fed by two different external power supplies.
-            SPDIF output (through DA101C/DA102C transformer) – 44.1kHz, 48kHz,88.2kHz, 96kHz, 176.4kHz, 192kHz (16-24 bits)
-            Dimensions: (LxWxH): 62.8 x 42.5 x 13.7 mm
Drivers:
-            No drivers needed for Linux with UAC2 compliant kernel
-            No drivers needed for MAC OS version 10.6.4 and above
-          ASIO/KS/WASAPI/Direct Sound drivers are necessary for Windows XP to 8 (32 and 64 bit). These drivers are not included with the I2SoverUSB board   

 
     

Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: Russtafarian on 22 Aug 2013, 10:43 pm
Quote
Has anyone seen this DSD DAC board?

FYI, as configured in the ebay listing, it doesn't do DSD.  The USB board is capable of outputting DSD via I2S, but the included TI PCM5102 DAC board doesn't do DSD.  It's not clear if no DSD is a limitation of the DAC chip or the interface between the USB board and the DAC chip.

It's something to keep an eye on, that's for sure.

Russ
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: vonnie123 on 8 Sep 2013, 07:41 am
Unfortunately that approach doesn't work for everyone, including me.  After 4 years on a very healthy diet, my cholesterol was still too high.  For people like me, it's genetics.  I had to resort to statins and Omega 3 pills.  Now my cholesterol level is low.

Read The Great Cholesterol Myth by DR. Sinatra.  Dying with low cholesterol is not a good outcome.  Heart disease affects both high and low cholesterol persons. 
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: ted_b on 9 Sep 2013, 01:16 pm
Back on topic, please.  :)  (the hijack was educational, though)

Well, as all of you know the DSD DAC market is exploding, with the latest being a few new units being introduced by the DSD grandfather himself, Sony.  And affordable (er, cheap!) DSD is coming with things like the Geek headphone DAC.  Well, now Schiit has hit the DSD fan with their new Loki, a $149 (yes, $149) DSD-only DAC that does two interesting things:
1) DSD only, allowing proper DSD filtering at the analog end, all the while..
2) allowing your PCM dac to pass through untouched via a front button (PCM passthrough same as HT passthrough)

(http://www.digitalaudioreview.net/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/Schiit_Loki_rear-580x386.jpg)

Time will tell whether their passthrough is clean enough, but suffice it to say that a $149 investment is low enough for most people to "dip their toes" into DSD.  And this "horses for course" approach of having a DSD-only design is theoretically quite sound (pun intended) and becoming a reality at places like Lampizator.  Frankly, I think it si a reason why more DAC mfgers haven't gone DSD; they see it as a completely different analog stage design and don't want to compromise their stellar PCM playback. 

Schiit availability TBA.  Thanks to John Darko and DigitalAudioReview for the headsup and picture (and Wisnon/Norman here on AC).
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: Big Red Machine on 9 Sep 2013, 01:29 pm
Wow.  That could be a great compliment to my new Lampizator unit.  Hope to catch one as soon as offered for $149!  Thanks Mr. Brady.
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: this_is_vv on 9 Sep 2013, 02:23 pm
Back on topic, please.  :)  (the hijack was educational, though)

Well, as all of you know the DSD DAC market is exploding, with the latest being a few new units being introduced by the DSD grandfather himself, Sony.  And affordable (er, cheap!) DSD is coming with things like the Geek headphone DAC.  Well, now Schiit has hit the DSD fan with their new Loki, a $149 (yes, $149) DSD-only DAC that does two interesting things:
1) DSD only, allowing proper DSD filtering at the analog end, all the while..
2) allowing your PCM dac to pass through untouched via a front button (PCM passthrough same as HT passthrough)

(http://www.digitalaudioreview.net/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/Schiit_Loki_rear-580x386.jpg)

Time will tell whether their passthrough is clean enough, but suffice it to say that a $149 investment is low enough for most people to "dip their toes" into DSD.  And this "horses for course" approach of having a DSD-only design is theoretically quite sound (pun intended) and becoming a reality at places like Lampizator.  Frankly, I think it si a reason why more DAC mfgers haven't gone DSD; they see it as a completely different analog stage design and don't want to compromise their stellar PCM playback. 

Schiit availability TBA.  Thanks to John Darko and DigitalAudioReview for the headsup and picture (and Wisnon/Norman here on AC).

can it do PCM(mp3 flac etc) as well or only DSD??

V
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: ted_b on 9 Sep 2013, 02:37 pm
Again, this is ONLY DSD, and is to be used with another PCM DAC.  it has a passthorugh (which still doesn't address how to do 2 live USB connections!)
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: this_is_vv on 9 Sep 2013, 02:44 pm
Again, this is ONLY DSD, and is to be used with another PCM DAC.  it has a passthorugh (which still doesn't address how to do 2 live USB connections!)

The USB made me think....for 149$ good price...now the subjective definition of DAC will start coming in...

V
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: ted_b on 9 Sep 2013, 02:56 pm
The USB made me think....for 149$ good price...now the subjective definition of DAC will start coming in...

V

It's a full DAC, don't get me wrong.  But it will only decode DSD.  A PCM DAC is not needed.....unless you want to hear PCM (or a solution would be to have JRIver upsample your PCM to DSD then send to the Loki  :) ).
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: ted_b on 9 Sep 2013, 04:33 pm
Schiit now has the DAC on its website, and more than imply it is ready for shipment.  Looks like a proprietary USB driver.  Their approach (and user manual) is light, fuill of humor, and frankly refreshing.
http://schiit.com/products/loki
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: this_is_vv on 9 Sep 2013, 06:39 pm
Schiit now has the DAC on its website, and more than imply it is ready for shipment.  Looks like a proprietary USB driver.  Their approach (and user manual) is light, fuill of humor, and frankly refreshing.
http://schiit.com/products/loki

it also have analog input....???? ...o what is that analog input for??

V
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: wisnon on 9 Sep 2013, 07:29 pm
Pass thru for the PCM Dac output! That is how it piggybacks on your old Dac. Ted did say he hopes its transparent!
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: this_is_vv on 9 Sep 2013, 07:53 pm
Pass thru for the PCM Dac output! That is how it piggybacks on your old Dac. Ted did say he hopes its transparent!

got it now....so USB is only way to get the data DSD song or using Jriver for PCM songs and change them as suggested by ted earlier....
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: sjd on 10 Sep 2013, 06:09 am
This Loki is an ideal transitional DSDAC for me who is perfectly happy with my PCM DAC and have only a few SACDs (now thinking to send Tyson's way)...  :-)  nice
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: wolfgang0119 on 10 Sep 2013, 08:32 am
NuForce released their Icon DAC which supports DSD and Android...$299
Has anyone tried this?
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=86750)


The innovative NuForce Icon DAC delivers the latest mobile device connectivity by supporting USB Audio for Android (4.1 and beyond with OTG), Mac and PC (with advanced PCM and DSD), a high-power headphone amplifier, a linear volume control and genuine audiophile construction throughout.

https://www.nuforce.com/index.php?option=com_k2&view=item&id=666:icon-dac&Itemid=2659
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: dminches on 10 Sep 2013, 01:24 pm
Pass thru for the PCM Dac output! That is how it piggybacks on your old Dac. Ted did say he hopes its transparent!

Unless one has limited inputs on their pre-amp, why would one use the pass through?
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: ted_b on 10 Sep 2013, 05:49 pm
Matrix has finally made a silver version of the X-Sabre ($1099).  These are the first pictures available (taken by the US distributor).  No official pictures are available yet. They said that they wanted us to have the first look.   :thumb:

It is a satin glass bead finish (fine sand blasting), with medium gray silk screened letting. The whole unit is the same color, the top looks darker in the pictures but, that is just shadowing.  Other then the color, there is now a recessed switch on the bottom to change between 115 volts & 230 volts.


(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=86766)


Edit:  changed $$ to $1099
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: Russtafarian on 10 Sep 2013, 08:09 pm
Quote
NuForce released their Icon DAC which supports DSD and Android...$299
Has anyone tried this?

DAC specs are limited to 24/96.  Without more info as to how it handles DSD files, my guess is DSD to PCM conversion.

DSD capability on these new lower priced DACs is cool.  It will be interesting to find out if DSD playback from budget DACs transcends the price-point in terms of performance or if it scales equivalently with PCM sound quality.

Russ
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: notany on 12 Sep 2013, 03:16 am
Hi,http://www.ultrahighendreview.com/schiit-announces-loki-dsd-dac/
 First time poster. Anyone know anything about the Schit?
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: notany on 12 Sep 2013, 03:25 am
Oops.  Just saw the previous posts.  When I searched for Schit it came up empty.  Auspisious start, eh?
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: droberts on 28 Sep 2013, 03:04 pm
Hi, I'm new to this forum. Just wanted to post that I received my Schiit Loki and set it up with Foobar2000. The guys at Schiit imply this is a complicated setup but it actually went quite smoothly. Works great! I also have the Bifrost DAC, Lyre power amp, and HifiMAN HE-400 headphones. Very nice setup for solitary listening. Downloaded a few Pure DSD offerings from High Definitions Tape Transfer, as well as a couple of hi-res PCM tracks from the same albums, and I love the DSD in comparison to the hi-res PCM. I'm hoping to rip a few of my SACDs so I can play them on this setup (not in the same room as my SACD player and speakers). Cheers.
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: this_is_vv on 11 Oct 2013, 10:09 pm
Matrix has finally made a silver version of the X-Sabre ($1099).  These are the first pictures available (taken by the US distributor).  No official pictures are available yet. They said that they wanted us to have the first look.   :thumb:

It is a satin glass bead finish (fine sand blasting), with medium gray silk screened letting. The whole unit is the same color, the top looks darker in the pictures but, that is just shadowing.  Other then the color, there is now a recessed switch on the bottom to change between 115 volts & 230 volts.


(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=86766)


Edit:  changed $$ to $1099

ted

any input from resonance based DSD dacs there are Concerno ND and HErus from resonance lab...350$ for a full dsd Based dac seems to be very good option...

http://resonessencelabs.com/


V
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: ted_b on 12 Oct 2013, 02:31 am
They are on my list to visit at RMAF but didn't get to their room (1104) today.
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: OzarkTom on 12 Oct 2013, 03:00 am
Also check out the Avatar Acoustics room. They should be showing the new $159 IFI Micro DAC that plays both DSD and PCM.
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: this_is_vv on 12 Oct 2013, 11:47 pm
They are on my list to visit at RMAF but didn't get to their room (1104) today.

will waig for it


V
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: this_is_vv on 14 Oct 2013, 09:42 am
They are on my list to visit at RMAF but didn't get to their room (1104) today.

Any updates


V
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: ted_b on 14 Oct 2013, 03:00 pm
I went in twice but no one was there to answer any questions.  The Concero was playing and it sounded fine, but who knows.  The final time I went in on Sunday they were tearing down.  I'll see them at CEs.
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: standub on 16 Oct 2013, 11:14 pm
Also check out the Avatar Acoustics room. They should be showing the new $159 IFI Micro DAC that plays both DSD and PCM.

They had a booth at canjam this year, and I have to say the IDSD, as it's going by now, sounded very very good.
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: PETE6737 on 19 Oct 2013, 04:56 am
Hello all,
I read all 19 pages and I have a few questions. I have an Oppo BDP105. These DACs you cite in this thread presumably would be better than what's in the Oppo correct?  Then how'd i get Dsd from the disc into The DAC? I'm new to some of this higher tech stuff beyond sticking a disc in a tray. Thanks, Pete
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: holzohr on 19 Oct 2013, 09:54 am
Hello Pete,

the Sabre DAC of the Oppo 105 is great! No need to change. I had the Oppo 105 at home in February/March and the Oppo replaced my T+A Music Player balanced.

These cited DACs here are DSD-ready (and thought for playback of DSD/DoP-files from computer or network player).
You should ask the Oppo-support to make the 105`s USB DAC ready for DSD/DoP by a firmware update. Not sure if they are working on it.

DSD files, you already can play from an USB drive or via network. I guess you know about that. Unfortunately, the Oppo still can not gapless playback. About ripping of SACDs, please check the other threads here in this HiRez Music Circle.

I have the Oppo BDP-103 now and the Matrix X-Sabre. That together makes an "Oppo 105" (plus DSD/DoP support). The Matrix and Oppo 105 have the same Sabre DAC.

Regards
Mario

Update: I found this in the Oppo BDP-105 Thread (AVS Forum), concerning if Oppo can add DSD support for the 105's USB DAC.
Quote
The BDP-105 uses an older version of the XMOS hardware, so it is not built into it. OPPO still hopes a software solution may be created, but likely this is a hardware limitation.
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: PETE6737 on 22 Oct 2013, 10:32 am
Thanks for the reply. I am lurking around trying to learn more about DACs and stuff. Thanks, Pete
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: ted_b on 23 Oct 2013, 03:36 am
Scot got around to posting a very good and lengthy "first listen" on the Lampi DSD-only DAC.  He, err, LOVES it.  :)

http://parttimeaudiophile.com/2013/10/22/lampizator-dsd-dac-first-listen/

I get it next.   :thumb:
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: Ric Schultz on 23 Oct 2013, 09:08 pm
The Tascam DA-3000 is finally hitting the streets at $1000.  One persons comments said that it did better recordings than the now discontinued Korg 2000 ($1800).  This is great news in that it can record all PCM and double speed DSD and play them all as well.  So, you have a high rez DAC and a high rez recorder....all for a grand.  I am sure it is not as good stock as an AD recorder as the $4000 Ayre unit but with mods it might compete (and the Ayre is not a player).  The mono running DACs with my discrete fet IV stage would be killer.  Can't wait to get my hands on one.
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: OzarkTom on 23 Oct 2013, 11:26 pm
The Tascam DA-3000 is finally hitting the streets at $1000.  One persons comments said that it did better recordings than the now discontinued Korg 2000 ($1800).  This is great news in that it can record all PCM and double speed DSD and play them all as well.  So, you have a high rez DAC and a high rez recorder....all for a grand.  I am sure it is not as good stock as an AD recorder as the $4000 Ayre unit but with mods it might compete (and the Ayre is not a player).  The mono running DACs with my discrete fet IV stage would be killer.  Can't wait to get my hands on one.

In stock here.

http://tascam.factoryoutletstore.com/cat/36204/Tascam-CD/SD-Players-Recorders.html
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: zybar on 24 Oct 2013, 01:23 am
Scot got around to posting a very good and lengthy "first listen" on the Lampi DSD-only DAC.  He, err, LOVES it.  :)

http://parttimeaudiophile.com/2013/10/22/lampizator-dsd-dac-first-listen/

I get it next.   :thumb:

DSD only DAC...can't see how that is a viable option from a logistics standpoint.   :dunno:

George
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: ted_b on 24 Oct 2013, 02:10 am
DSD only DAC...can't see how that is a viable option from a logistics standpoint.   :dunno:

George

George, yes you have a point...However....Many DACs only do one thing, really.  My Meitner MA-1 is, in reality, a one-bit DSD only DAC, while upsampling all PCM to DSD128 internally.  So for the Lampi (which, frankly, is a prototype and not intended to be sold as DSD only, really...just a proto of what will mostly be a board option for the Level 4 and 5 DACs) I will ask JRiver to upsample all my PCM to DSD (before it gets to the Lampi).   Lucasz will sell a few of these in DSD only mode, but only a precious few...most will be included in a combination DAC. 
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: Berto on 24 Oct 2013, 02:30 am
DSD only DAC...can't see how that is a viable option from a logistics standpoint.   :dunno:

George


I think if you have access to a top level vinyl rig and thousands of great recordings to rip to DSD, well then I could see a DSD only DAC kicking ass. I was just talking to Lukasz about this when he was in NY.

But like Ted said DSD will be mostly in the L4 and 5 dacs as well as auto sensing what format is playing.
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: wisnon on 24 Oct 2013, 06:11 am
George, yes you have a point...However....Many DACs only do one thing, really.  My Meitner MA-1 is, in reality, a one-bit DSD only DAC, while upsampling all PCM to DSD128 internally.  So for the Lampi (which, frankly, is a prototype and not intended to be sold as DSD only, really...just a proto of what will mostly be a board option for the Level 4 and 5 DACs) I will ask JRiver to upsample all my PCM to DSD (before it gets to the Lampi).   Lucasz will sell a few of these in DSD only mode, but only a precious few...most will be included in a combination DAC.

Hi Ted, does JRiver upsample DSD64 to DSD128 too? I assume this is PC JRiver and not Mac Jriver 19, right?
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: wisnon on 24 Oct 2013, 06:12 am

I think if you have access to a top level vinyl rig and thousands of great recordings to rip to DSD, well then I could see a DSD only DAC kicking ass. I was just talking to Lukasz about this when he was in NY.

But like Ted said DSD will be mostly in the L4 and 5 dacs as well as auto sensing what format is playing.

I had someone asking me this very question yesterday, as that is the bulk of their listening. Vinyl transfer to DSD128!!!!
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: k6davis on 24 Oct 2013, 09:20 am
DSD only DAC...can't see how that is a viable option from a logistics standpoint.   :dunno:

George

George, yes you have a point...However....Many DACs only do one thing, really.  My Meitner MA-1 is, in reality, a one-bit DSD only DAC, while upsampling all PCM to DSD128 internally.  So for the Lampi (which, frankly, is a prototype and not intended to be sold as DSD only, really...just a proto of what will mostly be a board option for the Level 4 and 5 DACs) I will ask JRiver to upsample all my PCM to DSD (before it gets to the Lampi).   Lucasz will sell a few of these in DSD only mode, but only a precious few...most will be included in a combination DAC.

It seems that many people are dismissive of DSD because there's so little content or because they've heard DSD content that doesn't live up to the hype. I'm not including you in this group ted_b.

According to its webpage, http://www.lampizator.eu/newdac/lampizator/DSD_DAC.html (http://www.lampizator.eu/newdac/lampizator/DSD_DAC.html), the LamipzatOr DSD DAC is not a prototype, it's available for sale (with several configurable options) and I'm highly interested in it.

I've heard that over 8,000 SACD have been released. I have a large number of SACD rips (DSD files) in my collection. More imporantly, JRiver and others now support the upsampling of all content to up to DSD128 (!!!). So the amount of content available to be played in DSD is basically infinte.

As for the sound of DSD, I don't know if it's widely understood just how high the resolution of DSD is. Looking at just DSD64:

The resolution of DSD64 is 1bit-2.8224 MHz which is equivalent to 64bit-352.8 kHz in PCM terms. More details can be found here: http://wiki.jriver.com/index.php/DSD_Format (http://wiki.jriver.com/index.php/DSD_Format).

64bit-352.8 kHz !!!!

It is certainly true that there are poorly mastered SACD/DSD files that are sonically inferior to their (often newly remastered) PCM/RedBook equivalents. But that's not because of any shortcomings in the DSD format. What I believe is beyond question is that the sonic potential (measured by resolution and by the ears of many listeners and critics) of DSD exceeds that of our current forms of PCM. Of course, care has to be taken in the recording and mastering processes.

Beyond all of that (and please correct me if I'm wrong here as I'm going a bit beyond my depth), I believe that an analog waveform needs to be constructed from multibit PCM data while 1-bit DSD data actually resembles an analog waveform. Which is why Lucasz is able to "convert" DSD without a Sabre, Burr Brown, etc. converter chip.

Therefore, it appears that Lucasz has done something special with the LampizatOr DSD DAC. It's desgined to maximize DSD only, in a new way and without regard to the very different needs of PCM. He's taken the extremely high resolution, analog-like DSD signal and processed it with care, using primarily analog means. In that regard, what it offers is likely superior to even a theoretical 64bit-352.8 kHz ESS Sabre conversion - if such a thing existed.

Early reviews of the Lampi DSD have been ecstatic, favorably comparing its sound to the best in the world. And as far as I've read, they've been reviewing a standard model without the available balanced outputs, upgraded capacitors, etc.

I understand that it's different and certainly not for everyone, but I'm definitely interested in his DSD only DAC. If this all works well and in the way that I envision (big caveat, I know), then the question for me is not whether I need DSD in my DAC, but why I need PCM.
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: wisnon on 24 Oct 2013, 09:49 am
k6Davis,

You are correct that the DSD-only Dac is for sale, BUT Ted is also correct in that his demo is still a prototype, made just before Auto-sensing was cracked in a firmware update. I also have a prototype which I bought, but mine has Duelund caps. Both units are SE and NOT Balanced, which AFAIK, Lukasz has only made one so far. I know that at least 2 L5s with DSD have also been made.

Ted is correct in that the bulk of Lampi DSDs will be made in dual Dacs with PCM, as that has been the bulk of the interest expressed to lukasz so far, However, i am seeing a rise in purist interest for DSD-only as there is a growing group of 'Philes that are upsampling all to DSD128 and quite a few ripping all their Vinyl to DSD128, so I agree the pool of DSD128 material will potentially explode!

For those of us who like the DSD sound, its a good time to be around.

BTW, I wrote the first preview at PTA in September..."Thermionic DSD, Lampizator style" and I look forward to Ted's review.
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: k6davis on 24 Oct 2013, 10:35 am
k6Davis,

You are correct that the DSD-only Dac is for sale, BUT Ted is also correct in that his demo is still a prototype, made just before Auto-sensing was cracked in a firmware update. I also have a prototype which I bought, but mine has Duelund caps. Both units are SE and NOT Balanced, which AFAIK, Lukasz has only made one so far. I know that at least 2 L5s with DSD have also been made.

Ted is correct in that the bulk of Lampi DSDs will be made in dual Dacs with PCM, as that has been the bulk of the interest expressed to lukasz so far, However, i am siing a rise in purist interest for DSD-only as there is a growing group of 'Philes that are upsampling all to DSD128 and quite a few ripping all their Vinyl to DSD128, so I agree the pool of DSD128 material will potentailly explode!

For those of us who like the DSD sound, its a good time to be around.

BTW, I wrote the first preview at PTA in September..."Thermionic DSD, Lampizator style" and I look forward to Ted's review.

Well said. I think that DSD is where we're heading, and pretty fast.

Oppo has announced a headphone/stereo-pre/DSD USB DAC based on the ESS Sabre chip and the audio circuitry of their well regarded BDP-105. It should be moderately priced and likely very successful. Sony, of course has gotten behind DSD with hardware & they've promised content from all the major labels. The media player software on Windows & the Mac upconvert to it. I suspect that DSD upconversion will become standard on the next generation of DAC chips, and therefore it could even become common on mainstream audio equipment like home theater receivers within a few years.

As for Lampi DSD, I agree that the vast majority of it will be sold as add-ins to their PCM DACs. I'm just saying that, although it might sound radical, I'm interested in at least trying DSD upconversion of all my PCM content, and therefore ditching the PCM aspect of the DAC altogether. It seems to me that that may yield the best result and at a lower cost, as a loaded LampizatOr DSD DAC is already more than I really wanted to spend.

Speaking of "loaded", from the LampizatOr DSD DAC website:

Quote
OPTIONS
Duelund capacitors Copper Cast PIO   (add 180 Eu for one)
Volume control with 64 steps and remote control (add 400 Euro)
Volume control for balanced with 64 steps and remote control (add 600 Euro)
Biamping output add 100 Euro
Balanced fully differential outputs: add 400 Euro
(two more Duelunds for balanced cost 180 euro extra for each and 4 are needed in total)

I really enjoyed your write-up in PTA, which was the first article I'd seen there. I'm also looking forward to Ted's review.
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: dminches on 24 Oct 2013, 12:00 pm
and quite a few ripping all their Vinyl to DSD128,

I don't understand why people would do this.  If they have that good a vinyl collection and that good a vinyl setup why would you want to listen to it via a digital transfer?

Personally, I have more than enough room in my musical array for both analog and digital.  And the DSD material I have heard is truly excellent.  But I can't see making needle drops of my vinyl collection.
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: zybar on 24 Oct 2013, 12:18 pm
George, yes you have a point...However....Many DACs only do one thing, really.  My Meitner MA-1 is, in reality, a one-bit DSD only DAC, while upsampling all PCM to DSD128 internally.  So for the Lampi (which, frankly, is a prototype and not intended to be sold as DSD only, really...just a proto of what will mostly be a board option for the Level 4 and 5 DACs) I will ask JRiver to upsample all my PCM to DSD (before it gets to the Lampi).   Lucasz will sell a few of these in DSD only mode, but only a precious few...most will be included in a combination DAC.

Fair points Ted.

However, saying something is really good at one thing vs. only being able to do one thing isn't exactly the same.

As I understood this initial implementation, you could only do DSD unless you had a software program (such as JRiver v19) that could convert all of your PCM to DSD.  The fact that it will ultimately be an option in one of the other DAC's seems to support my initial comments.

As for JRiver upsampling PCM to DSD...I am very much looking forward to hearing that in my own system when I receive my Auaralic VEGA DAC in the coming weeks.

George
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: dminches on 24 Oct 2013, 12:24 pm

As for JRiver upsampling PCM to DSD...I am very much looking forward to hearing that in my own system when I receive my Auaralic VEGA DAC in the coming weeks.

George

Can someone explain to me the advantages of upsampling PCM to DSD?  I read a blog post about this but I didn't walk away with any definitive.

http://archimago.blogspot.com/2013/09/measurements-pcm-to-dsd-upsampling.html (http://archimago.blogspot.com/2013/09/measurements-pcm-to-dsd-upsampling.html)
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: wisnon on 24 Oct 2013, 12:43 pm

Speaking of "loaded", from the LampizatOr DSD DAC website:

I really enjoyed your write-up in PTA, which was the first article I'd seen there. I'm also looking forward to Ted's review.

Thanks for the kind words! Really appreciated.

The DSD only Dac was first conceived for previous Lampi Dac owners to have a DSD option to add to their existing Dac without sending stuff back for upgrades, etc. Consequently, I think existing L3 and above owners will get a nice reduction on the retail price (according to what I saw on the website before).

Owners of LampizatOr DACs : ASK ABOUT YOUR DEEP DISCOUNT for DSD DAC !
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: wisnon on 24 Oct 2013, 12:45 pm
I don't understand why people would do this.  If they have that good a vinyl collection and that good a vinyl setup why would you want to listen to it via a digital transfer?

Personally, I have more than enough room in my musical array for both analog and digital.  And the DSD material I have heard is truly excellent.  But I can't see making needle drops of my vinyl collection.

Convenience. they will have to choice of playing vinyl when they want or DSD128 in a lounging session without having to keep getting up every half hour. one person told me that he and his mates could not distinguish between the 2 in a blind test with his $15K TT setup! He used PBD-3 Dac
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: k6davis on 24 Oct 2013, 12:49 pm
Can someone explain to me the advantages of upsampling PCM to DSD?  I read a blog post about this but I didn't walk away with any definitive.

http://archimago.blogspot.com/2013/09/measurements-pcm-to-dsd-upsampling.html (http://archimago.blogspot.com/2013/09/measurements-pcm-to-dsd-upsampling.html)

JRiver states their reasoning for doing so here: http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=82074.0 (http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=82074.0). Here's the relevant section:

Quote
The argument for this new feature is that a DAC might do a better job with DSD than PCM.  Certain DAC chips are always running in DSD mode and any incoming PCM will get converted to DSD by the DAC.  If you instead do this conversion with a computer, you may be able to achieve higher quality.

The DSD and PCM conversion processes are apparently very different and your DAC may perform better if it receives a signal in DSD form. It's nice to be able to try it out for (essentially) no cost.
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: wisnon on 24 Oct 2013, 12:52 pm
Fair points Ted.

However, saying something is really good at one thing vs. only being able to do one thing isn't exactly the same.

As I understood this initial implementation, you could only do DSD unless you had a software program (such as JRiver v19) that could convert all of your PCM to DSD.  The fact that it will ultimately be an option in one of the other DAC's seems to support my initial comments.

As for JRiver upsampling PCM to DSD...I am very much looking forward to hearing that in my own system when I receive my Auaralic VEGA DAC in the coming weeks.

George

George the DSD "Dac" is not really a Dac, its an elaborate 3-stage filter! It only does DSD, as PCM requires decoding and DSD does not. This is why lampi is one of the only PURE DSD machines out there with no conversion at all and no DSP. Vega, for example uses a Sabre Chip, so while the result is reportedly excellent, its stil not unadulterated DSD.

The Lampi DSD module can be incorporated into a normal Lampi PCM Dac as an add on, and will STILL not use a chip, as it will be isolated and distinct from the PCM section. Its not ultimately an option, its now, as there are at least 2 commercial L5s sold just like that and weeks before I got my DSD only dac.

Finally, JRiver for PC costs like $50 to $100 and you get the ability to upsample PCM on the fly with the powerful PC processor, rather than the chintzy Dac chip. Where is the compromise in that?
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: wisnon on 24 Oct 2013, 12:55 pm
Can someone explain to me the advantages of upsampling PCM to DSD?  I read a blog post about this but I didn't walk away with any definitive.

http://archimago.blogspot.com/2013/09/measurements-pcm-to-dsd-upsampling.html (http://archimago.blogspot.com/2013/09/measurements-pcm-to-dsd-upsampling.html)

I myself am disposed to playing everything at native recorded rate/format, but some people think that PCM upsampled to 128 (not 64) sounds better than the native PCM rate.

It may be a matter of taste, so try for yourself. It costs nothing to try if you already have the gear, software and media to test with.
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: Big Red Machine on 24 Oct 2013, 12:56 pm
Anyone have a ballpark cost to upgrade an L4 to DSD and if it requires sending it back and results in a larger chassis?
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: wisnon on 24 Oct 2013, 12:57 pm
Can someone explain to me the advantages of upsampling PCM to DSD?  I read a blog post about this but I didn't walk away with any definitive.

http://archimago.blogspot.com/2013/09/measurements-pcm-to-dsd-upsampling.html (http://archimago.blogspot.com/2013/09/measurements-pcm-to-dsd-upsampling.html)

Essentially if you have a Delta-sigma PCM Dac, its quasi DSD anyway. You would probably never do this if you have a ladder dac like TotalDac...which is like $12k sold direct.
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: wisnon on 24 Oct 2013, 12:59 pm
Anyone have a ballpark cost to upgrade an L4 to DSD and if it requires sending it back and results in a larger chassis?

About $1k give or take (plus delivery), requires sending back and DHL delivery take max 2 days to return.

If you do that, you may want to add Duelund caps and if an older L4, you may want to spec up to Gen4.

I cant answer for the details there....
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: k6davis on 24 Oct 2013, 01:04 pm
Thanks for the kind words! Really appreciated.

The DSD only Dac was first conceived for previous Lampi Dac owners to have a DSD option to add to their existsing Dac without send stuff back for upgrades, etc. Consequently, i think existing L3 and above owners will get a nice reduction on the retail price (according to what i saw on the website before).

Owners of LampizatOr DACs : ASK ABOUT YOUR DEEP DISCOUNT for DSD DAC !

You're welcome. It's articles like yours that not only make us aware of equipment we may not have otherwise known about, but also give us an in depth understanding of why we might be interested in particular piece. It's a great help to us in making these rather complex decisions.

With that said, smile, you're concerning me a little in regard to the LampizatOr DSD DAC.

I agree with you that there will be a small minority buying the unit as a stand alone piece, but I hope that Lucasz fully intends to sell it that way, as the website suggests.
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: k6davis on 24 Oct 2013, 01:09 pm
Anyone have a ballpark cost to upgrade an L4 to DSD and if it requires sending it back and results in a larger chassis?

Not to rain on anyone's parade, but this is on the Lampi DSD DAC webpage. http://www.lampizator.eu/newdac/lampizator/DSD_DAC.html (http://www.lampizator.eu/newdac/lampizator/DSD_DAC.html). Interested parties may want to get this confirmed... or debunked:

Quote
DSD DAC will not be available as a retrofit addition to Lampizator DAC except the Level 5.

It is possible to install DSD DAC in Level 5 machine.
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: dminches on 24 Oct 2013, 01:10 pm
I myself am disposed to playing everything at native recorded rate/format

I feel similarly.  The fewer processes the better.
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: k6davis on 24 Oct 2013, 01:42 pm
I feel similarly.  The fewer processes the better.

I respect the principle of what you're saying, but I think the idea is that, especially with PCM, all kinds of "processes" are required to turn it into audio we can hear. It needs to be manipulated to turn it into sound. So no matter what, heavy processing is taking place.

So the question becomes, is it better to feed your DAC the upconverted DSD signal or let it process the raw PCM?

I'm not saying that your answer is wrong. Just that it really depends on your computer, your software & your DAC.

It's essentially free to try and if it doesn't sound better, you haven't lost anything.
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: wisnon on 24 Oct 2013, 01:51 pm
You're welcome. It's articles like yours that not only make us aware of equipment we may not have otherwise known about, but also give us an in depth understanding of why we might be interested in particular piece. It's a great help to us in making these rather complex decisions.

With that said, smile, you're concerning me a little in regard to the LampizatOr DSD DAC.

I agree with you that there will be a small minority buying the unit as a stand alone piece, but I hope that Lucasz fully intends to sell it that way, as the website suggests.

Sure, it will be sold, dont worry. He just does/did not expect as much demand...I think he could be wrong there with the new groundswell developing of DSD128 upsamplers!!!!
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: wisnon on 24 Oct 2013, 01:55 pm
Not to rain on anyone's parade, but this is on the Lampi DSD DAC webpage. http://www.lampizator.eu/newdac/lampizator/DSD_DAC.html (http://www.lampizator.eu/newdac/lampizator/DSD_DAC.html). Interested parties may want to get this confirmed... or debunked:

That needs to be updated. This was done before he got the module minaturized enough. I asked and he told me its possible in L4s too, if they are not already overloaded with options. It wont be possible for a fully balanced L4, no space left, but I assume a S.E. L4 with USB and Volme control is a prime candidate for upgrade.
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: ted_b on 24 Oct 2013, 01:56 pm
I respect the principle of what you're saying, but I think the idea is that, especially with PCM, all kinds of "processes" are required to turn it into audio we can hear. It needs to be manipulated to turn it into sound. So no matter what, heavy processing is taking place.

So the question becomes, is it better to feed your DAC the upconverted DSD signal or let it process the raw PCM?

I'm not saying that your answer is wrong. Just that it really depends on your computer, your software & your DAC.

It's essentially free to try and if it doesn't sound better, you haven't lost anything.

+1.  Well put! 

When I said I would do the DSD upsample thing in JRIver it's because,with this unique Lampi design other than my 1500 ripped SACDs, its my only choice with the other many terabytes of music (i.e PCM) I own.  And to George's credit, his "logistics" question is a good one and well-founded.  If one would attempt to use two DACs and two computer streams (with two dac drivers, etc) in their computer audio setup it would be maddening.  That is why this "DSD-only" issues is worth talking about...cuz its "simplicity" has many layers (oxymoron?).  But as said ealrier, and better said by k6davis, many DACs are internally doing this upsampling/conversion to work within their delta-sigma design, so this Lampi design is simply asking the user to do that....and that maybe it will result in even better sonics.

K6Davis (and others) feel free to peruse my (and Jesus's) DSD database over on google docs and let us know if we've missed anything.  I;m sure we have.  New DSD DACs from Lindemann and Nagra, for example, are not yet on there.  I'm falling behind.  :)

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=114707.0
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: wisnon on 24 Oct 2013, 02:00 pm
Ted, do you know if JRiver for Mac can do the same PCM to DSD upsampling like the PC version? Also, can either do DSD64 to DSD128 on the fly as well?

Good points you and George raise. Of course, with a Hybrid Lampi with PCM and DSD, one could still go the upsampling route at will and play "natively" at will. L4 and L5 is R2R, but that is still different to pure ladder, no?

Ted,you do realize that the list will soon become menaingless right. Almost EVERY Dac from now on for the forseeable future will be DSD capable, except pure ladder dacs. I think even Weiss has a DSD or streamer now...
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: jtwrace on 24 Oct 2013, 02:09 pm
Ted, do you know if JRiver for Mac can do the same PCM to DSD upsampling like the PC version? Also, can either do DSD64 to DSD128 on the fly as well?
Yes, only to DSD64 as of today.  They're working on PCM > DSD128 though.


http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=84307.0 (http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=84307.0)
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: Big Red Machine on 24 Oct 2013, 02:17 pm
About $1k give or take (plus delivery), requires sending back and DHL delivery take max 2 days to return.

If you do that, you may want to add Duelund caps and if an older L4, you may want to spec up to Gen4.

I cant answer for the details there....

Already have L4/G4 with Duelands, so good there.  I was thinking it might be more and I could get a DSD dac for closer to $1k and have two dacs.  Mostly to see if I want to go that path.  I have a handful of songs in DSD-formats and I can see the added black background and fidelity for the few seconds they play before rebuffering.  But as far as building up a library I am not going to start purchsing SACD's and then have them ripped. 

My L4G4 is starting to really open up now that I have found complementary tubes for the Dude.  Some spooky results.  So tasting the blood has made me more DSD-curious on a very limited budget right now.  I hate the idea of relinquishing my dac for a few weeks. :(
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: wisnon on 24 Oct 2013, 02:54 pm
Yes, only to DSD64 as of today.  They're working on PCM > DSD128 though.


http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=84307.0 (http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=84307.0)

Thanks, jtw and for Mac too?

Funny, I hear lots of talk about DSD128 software upsampling. Pretty sure Signalist does this...
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: jtwrace on 24 Oct 2013, 02:56 pm
Thanks, jtw and for Mac too?

Funny, I hear lots of talk about DSD128 software upsampling. Pretty sure Signalist does this...
That is for Mac.  Only supported in MC19 though.


These are the new features for MC19. (http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=83886.0)
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: ted_b on 24 Oct 2013, 02:56 pm
Signalyst is a Windows player.  On Windows JRiver does DSD128 upsampling too.  :)  As Matt has warned, it is quite cpu-intensive.  My only concern is my cpu strength, as my current controlpc (the one that has JRIver on it) is a CAPS Lagoon Atom-based Intel dn2800mt processor.  I'm not holding out much hope, but I have plenty of DSD to test the Lampi with, regardless.
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: wisnon on 24 Oct 2013, 02:59 pm
Already have L4/G4 with Duelands, so good there.  I was thinking it might be more and I could get a DSD dac for closer to $1k and have two dacs.  Mostly to see if I want to go that path.  I have a handful of songs in DSD-formats and I can see the added black background and fidelity for the few seconds they play before rebuffering.  But as far as building up a library I am not going to start purchsing SACD's and then have them ripped. 

My L4G4 is starting to really open up now that I have found complementary tubes for the Dude.  Some spooky results.  So tasting the blood has made me more DSD-curious on a very limited budget right now.  I hate the idea of relinquishing my dac for a few weeks. :(

I hear yah BRM.

 Maybe in time it will be an upgrade that will be doable in the US... but with overnight DHL back, the whole excercise may be just a week to 10 days of coordinated well beforehand.

Note that 90+% of the other DSD Dacs out there is not true native DSD! They wont be the same as what LF has done. Read my PTA article again (and the comments section) to see what he does different, the road not commonly taken.

Yeah, duelunds have a fairly long break-in time.

What tubes did you decide on in the end?
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: wisnon on 24 Oct 2013, 03:01 pm
Signalyst is a Windows player.  On Windows JRIver does it too.  :)

THANKS Guys, I had heard that Windows MC19 could do that...

Mac is getting outdistanced!!!!
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: jtwrace on 24 Oct 2013, 03:03 pm
Signalyst is a Windows player.  On Windows JRiver does DSD128 upsampling too.  :)  As Matt has warned, it is quite cpu-intensive.  My only concern is my cpu strength, as my current controlpc (the one that has JRIver on it) is a CAPS Lagoon Atom-based Intel dn2800mt processor.  I'm not holding out much hope, but I have plenty of DSD to test the Lampi with, regardless.
The Mac code for JRiver has already gotten 40% quicker.  It will be out in the next version.


Mac is getting outdistanced!!!!
What do you mean?
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: jtwrace on 24 Oct 2013, 03:06 pm
I was thinking very seriously (parts list made) about building a Windows machine (not CAPS) to replace my Mac Mini.  I started this thread (http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=84605.0) and have now decided to wait until the new Mini comes out and get that. 


Maybe you'll find something of use in it.   :dunno:
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: Atlplasma on 24 Oct 2013, 04:09 pm
I was thinking very seriously (parts list made) about building a Windows machine (not CAPS) to replace my Mac Mini.  I started this thread (http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=84605.0) and have now decided to wait until the new Mini comes out and get that. 


Maybe you'll find something of use in it.   :dunno:

Is there something about the new Mini that has caught your attention? I thought the CAPS type PCs made really good music servers.
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: wisnon on 24 Oct 2013, 04:21 pm


What do you mean?

Dual PC servers, lagging with playback software like JRiver, no Mqn, no Signalyst, etc...
DoP only, no Asio/Wasapi. Mac used to be the go to choice for music...
Title: DSD dac for under 100$
Post by: this_is_vv on 24 Oct 2013, 11:45 pm
http://www.ebay.com/itm/DAC-32192-DSD-32Bit-192KHz-2-8224MHz-DSD64-2Channels-DAC-Based-on-WM8741-/331026135234?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4d12b1f8c2


V
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: ted_b on 25 Oct 2013, 01:51 pm
Signalyst is a Windows player.  On Windows JRiver does DSD128 upsampling too.  :)  As Matt has warned, it is quite cpu-intensive.  My only concern is my cpu strength, as my current controlpc (the one that has JRIver on it) is a CAPS Lagoon Atom-based Intel dn2800mt processor.  I'm not holding out much hope, but I have plenty of DSD to test the Lampi with, regardless.

Last night I realized I have an option with my cpu-intensive issue....do the conversions in JRiver before hand!  So I've taken several PCM favorites and converted them to DSD128, readying myself for the eval.  :)
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: wisnon on 25 Oct 2013, 01:55 pm
Clever Ted.

I now understand the bottleneck on the feeble control PC.

I will use the MM 2012 quad-core 2.3ghz and I expect that should bbe powerful enough. i just heard that JRMC19 for Mac will now upsample all to DSD128 on the fly! Thumbs up!!!
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: k6davis on 29 Oct 2013, 12:47 pm
+1.  Well put! 

Ted_B, thanks for your kind words earlier.

My understanding from what I've read at Part Time Audiophile is that you're currently evaluating the LampizatOr DSD DAC for review.

Based on the very enthusiastic reports of its sound quality, I'm strongly considering purchasing this unit. There are a few questions I'd like you pose to you as you're examining the DAC. My questions are fairly detailed and I certainly don't mean to cause you any inconvenience if they turn out to be difficult to answer.

First, I've read that there have been some operational glitches. For example, static between songs or during quiet passages. I've also read that there have been some driver or computer connectivity issues. I expect that Lucasz will resolve these issues if they (still) exist. What I'd like to know is, if you're experiencing these (or any other) operational problems and, importantly, whether the unit you're testing is a production model or a prototype.

In addition, the way I intend to use the DAC is with JRiver (Windows) upsampling all of my content to DSD128. What I'd like to know is if the LampizatOr can accept such input from JRiver, or would some kind of intermediary software (like JPlay) be necessary. In other words, does the LampizatOr require native DSD128 via ASIO or DSD128 over PCM, or can it accept both? I recall you saying that you run a lower powered, high end, low noise CAPS server, in which case you may not be able to test that functionality.

Finally, I've narrowed my candidates down to the LampizatOr DSD and the Auralic Vega. By all accounts, the Vega is an outstanding DAC, but the few initial reports on the LampizatOr DSD DAC suggest that sonically, it's in the league of the extremely high end, cost-no-object DAC's. I don't know which units you'll be able to compare the LampizatOr DSD to, but a comparison to the Vega would be greatly appreciated. By me, at least. LOL

Thanks in advance for any insight you can provide and I look forward to your review.
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: ted_b on 29 Oct 2013, 01:20 pm
K6Davis,
My unit (the one Scot sent me) is an early prototype, and we are learning it became defective, likely in repeated shipping, so Lukasz is sending me another one asap.  My unit began showing issues with Scot (he thought it was a bad tube but finding it's likely loose connections that got even worse with me).  These things happen with prototypes and demo/travel units.  No real big deal...but I can't speak to the sonics yet.  What I heard, in between the distortion issues, is VERY promising. Yes, the unit thumps when switching sample rate (a physical toggle switch) from DSD to DSD128, but that is expected in this unit and is part of the early proto design he explains on his website.  Lukasz already stated that production units will auto-sense and likely auto-mute.   And no, I noticed no intertrack noise or glitches, just the addtl thumps and distortion that we've determined are defective parts. 

What I can answer is this:  DoP works fine with the Lampi DSD both via Windows and via OSX.  In Windows I used Jplay (via JRiver) and in OSX I played via A+ and via JRiver.  The Amanero Windows driver shows up as Kernel Streaming with JPlay (as designed).  I am not yet sure if it also has an ASIO component as I didn't yet go direct to JRIver in my WS 2012 dual pc setup.

Also, upsampled DSD128 works fine, but as I noted a couple days ago I am not using that function realtime, but instead I had JRiver convert some favorite PCM to DSD128 offline.  If your server has enough horsepower, go for on-the-fly, but be aware the PCM-to-DSD128 process is VERY cpu intensive.  In a single pc setup (where JRiver and the dac driver are on the same machine) I'm not sure what kind of sonics you'd get with a cpu working so hard.

Stay tuned.

Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: k6davis on 29 Oct 2013, 01:51 pm
Wow Ted_B,

I really appreciate your quick and very informative reply! It's hard to overstate how valuable it is to have people such as yourself make themselves available. I have zero access to the unit and these are not trivial purchasing decisions.

Anyway, I'm no longer concerned about the issues I raised and I'm now even more excited to read your review. I can stop hitting F5 (on http://computeraudiophile.com, right?) since you are waiting for a replacement unit.  :P

Thanks again.
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: wisnon on 29 Oct 2013, 03:48 pm
Hi K6d,

I also have a DSD only Lampi and have none of the issues you noted in my system. I have played upsampled PCM files (to DSD128) and they sound superb. No issues whatsoever. DSD128 is IT! PC-Who???

I use Mac only and A+ so far. Just got JRiver, but dont have the time to "learn" it yet.

I  have a (dynamics junkie) pal in Boston that had a Gen 3 Level 4 lampi dac and later, he switched from Tubes/Horn to Emerald Physics (open baffle/controlled directivity/DSP controlled) system with Class D power amps and W4S SE preamp. He then demoed the Vega and preferred it in that system and bought it, still keeping the old Lampi which he was emotionally attached to. i had warned him the Gen 4 was a step or 2 up, but not until he heard a Gen 4 L5 in his system (fully balanced) that he realized the improvement possible. He subsequently sent his OLd lampi back to Poland to be re-jigged to Gen 4/balanced/Duelunds (replacing audio note Caps). You see, the E-Physics setup is run fully BALANCED and the old Lampi was SE...thus he was getting only half the dynamics. Further the new Gen 4 boards sound better and with the Duelunds its game, set and match!

He is excitely waiting on the 2nd coming of the Lampi...which should be about Friday if he is lucky.

I also have a UK buddy who demoed the Vega and chose to go L5 Lampi with DSd and he has autosensing, but not auto-mute and he is still waiting to switch to duelunds.


The Vega is a great sounding Dac from what I heard and is cheaper than your typical Lampi, so that is a consideration. Individual taste and system synergy count for something too.

Boston update:
B. just left after hearing J's Level 5 (PCM only) and now knows that he needs an upgrade too. According to Lukasz, mine will sound appreciably better than J's. Since J's wipes the floor with the Vega, I can't even begin to surmise how phenomenal it will be!

Further update;
I finally got a chance to hear the new Gen 4, Level 5 Lampy at J's yesterday afternoon.  Yikes!  The new unit simply immerses you in beautiful music (perfect tone, fantastic detail, and the most realistic soundstage I have ever heard).  I'm contacting Lukasz today to start the upgrade process for my unit.  The difference between my superb-sounding unit and the G4L5 is not subtle and the upgrade is absolutely worth the additional effort and expense.  You should hear Misa Criolla on a G4L5.  Just make sure you have some tissues handy.  Regards, B.   

Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: barrows on 29 Oct 2013, 04:26 pm
I suspect that in this price region (<$10K) you would also be wise to demo the Luxman...  Throw some Stillpoints under there as well for the price of the Lampizator.
Also Bricasti...
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: wisnon on 29 Oct 2013, 06:16 pm
The Lampi DSD only Dac is like $3K. Futhermore, its PURE DSD with no PCM conversion, no DSP, just high quality flirtation and a delicately simple and pure circuit. Others can sound pretty good, very good even,  but you need to hear the TRUE DSD sound to get it.

The L5 with DSD will be like <$8k.

The fellow should demo all he can, if he can, but you clearly never heard a current Lampi. To me its $20K+ sound...but that is only my opinion...
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: k6davis on 29 Oct 2013, 06:33 pm
[quote authorconfiguration=wisnon link=topic=110794.msg1271948#msg1271948 date=1383070563]
The Lampi DSD only Dac is like $3K.

The Lour5 with DSD will be like <$8k.

The fellow should demo all he can, if he can, but you clearly never heard a current Lampi. To me its $20K+ sound...but that is only my opinion...
[/quote]

I believe the Lampi DSD is nearly $3.5k USD but that's without options. If I get one, which is looking likely, I'll add some upgrades to the base configuration.

Speaking of configuration, wisnon, do you know the best way to discuss ordering and terms with LampizatOr? Is there an email address or a particular person I should contact?
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: Berto on 29 Oct 2013, 07:21 pm
Hi Ted,

I heard about the unfortunate circumstances. :duh: I'm planning on correcting this matter for you ASAP. I lent out the DSD Dac that Lukasz left me and Fred to demo.  I will be meeting that gentleman early tomorrow morning to get the DAC back. I will ship it to you and follow-up with tracking!

Rob
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: PhilipAC on 30 Oct 2013, 12:26 pm
Hi Norman (and everyone else!)

I am Norman's "UK buddy" who has the L5 DSD Lampi, awaiting Duelunds.

I love it- fabulous DAC. It is so good on DSD that I have converted the 20% of my files that are PCM to DSD using JRMC (on my wife's PC because I don't believe conversion to DSD- other than on-the-fly- is available on JR for Mac yet). In general, I agree with Ted's mantra of listening to music in its native format, but I think the DSD Lampi is worth an exception to this policy.

The only noises I get are a couple of thumps when it starts a new play list or changes between PCM, DSD64 and DSD128, and I have quickly learned to mute for a couple of seconds on these occasions. But if you are playing a play list, or a whole piece of classical music, there are no noises except at the very beginning.  NB Norman- is auto-muting available now- I thought not yet?

Cheers

Philip
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: wisnon on 30 Oct 2013, 03:32 pm
No auto-mute yet. Hopefully before year end...

Lots of us waiting on that.
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: Big Red Machine on 30 Oct 2013, 04:40 pm
The auto-mute would be very nice.  Like Philip, I get thump on start of a session and a thump when I "stop" a session.  I've eliminated the thump between different resolutions so listening sessions are much more enjoyable from that aspect.  I'm anxious to get the DSD capability into my unit.  Damn thing is pressing my component competencies everywhere else but I think mostpieces are up to the task.
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: PhilipAC on 30 Oct 2013, 06:58 pm
Hi BRM

How did you eliminate thumps between changes of mode please?

Cheers

Philip
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: wisnon on 30 Oct 2013, 07:43 pm
BRM, do you get thumps with your PCM Dac?

I don't know about that as my Lampi PCM Dac only has coax and Aes/EBU inputs, no USB. Never had a thump in PCM.

The DSD Dac is ONLY via usb and hence there is a thump potential, but by muting, I don't have an issue, just like Phillip says...
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: barrows on 30 Oct 2013, 08:38 pm
wisnon, I applaud your enthusiasm but this statement is inaccurate:

"Othere cant sound pretty good, very good even,  but you need to hear the TRUE DSD sound to get it."

DSD was developed as a noise shaped format from the start, "TRUE DSD" would be noise shaped, as that is how the format works.  I am not suggesting that filtering only is a bad way to decode DSD, just that calling such an approach "TRUE DSD" (your caps), is misleading.  As if you are saying that folks like Andreas and Ed (the guys who actually helped develop the format in the first place) are doing it wrong.
I actually have a prototype DAC here which decodes DSD in a related fashion, no DS modulator and no noise shaping, only "filtering", unfortunately this one does not appear to have enough filtering, as there are noise artifacts.  I do note that Lukas experienced similar problems with the development of his approach, until he figured out his three tiers of filters.

The other DACs which I mention decode both PCM and DSD, as such they should be compared in price to Lampizator DACs with both.  When one does so, the prices are in the same ballpark.
Very surprised that Lukasz uses the Amanero?  Is that really true?  That is indeed a pity if true...
I doubt anyone is getting a Lampizator DSD for $3.5K with Duelund Cast coupling caps onboard...  if so, that is a fantastic deal, even without PCM decoding.
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: ted_b on 30 Oct 2013, 08:55 pm
Barrows,
Yes, its an Amanero board.  Tell me your thoughts on it.  I respect your comments, of course.
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: barrows on 30 Oct 2013, 09:40 pm
Ted: I really do not feel like I should comment further here.  There is plenty of information on the Amenero USB interface at diyaudio.com for those who would like to learn more.
Personally, I feel the USB interface is a critical part of any DAC where the primary playback is going to be from a computer/server source, and there are big differences in the performance of different USB interfaces.
It sure would be nice if all Async USB interfaces were equal, but that is surely not the case.  A USB interface can be a stumbling block for many manufacturers, especially smaller ones, who do not have the resources (computer engineers comfortable with high speed data design and programming) to develop and perfect their own interface.  Even the popular XMOS chip requires quite a bit of specialized skills to be implemented well.
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: wisnon on 30 Oct 2013, 09:49 pm
wisnon, I applaud your enthusiasm but this statement is inaccurate:

"Othere cant sound pretty good, very good even,  but you need to hear the TRUE DSD sound to get it."

DSD was developed as a noise shaped format from the start, "TRUE DSD" would be noise shaped, as that is how the format works.  I am not suggesting that filtering only is a bad way to decode DSD, just that calling such an approach "TRUE DSD" (your caps), is misleading.  As if you are saying that folks like Andreas and Ed (the guys who actually helped develop the format in the first place) are doing it wrong.
I actually have a prototype DAC here which decodes DSD in a related fashion, no DS modulator and no noise shaping, only "filtering", unfortunately this one does not appear to have enough filtering, as there are noise artifacts.  I do note that Lukas experienced similar problems with the development of his approach, until he figured out his three tiers of filters.

The other DACs which I mention decode both PCM and DSD, as such they should be compared in price to Lampizator DACs with both.  When one does so, the prices are in the same ballpark.
Very surprised that Lukasz uses the Amanero?  Is that really true?  That is indeed a pity if true...
I doubt anyone is getting a Lampizator DSD for $3.5K with Duelund Cast coupling caps onboard...  if so, that is a fantastic deal, even without PCM decoding.

Barrows, I didn't say the Lampi was the only True DSD. EMM and PBD are too, even if the do some DSP stuff. My jab was against the ones who convert to PCM or 8-bit SDM quasi PCM. Luxman and Bricasti are not operating totally in DSD domain.

I can't be totally certain about prices, but if price is the only issue, then why not recommend X-Sabre, Teac or the Tascam that records in DSD.
Finally, does it matter what board is used if the end result is great SQ?

BTW, I appreciate your mellow tone. Cheers
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: Big Red Machine on 30 Oct 2013, 10:00 pm
BRM, do you get thumps with your PCM Dac?

I don't know about that as my Lampi PCM Dac only has coax and Aes/EBU inputs, no USB. Never had a thump in PCM.

The DSD Dac is ONLY via usb and hence there is a thump potential, but by muting, I don't have an issue, just like Phillip says...

I posted here some time ago about my popping noise issue.  Trung helped me resolve it.  Only during USB use, not using SPDIF (no issues) and when changing resolutions.  I made many changes and those are written down 2 floors below.  Primarily I recall that since the Amenaro is capable of 192, I set all my audio outputs to upsample or downsample to 192k, set deliberate pauses inbetween tracks, did not use 'play from memory', and a few others.  I believe the 192k was the key trick.  I still get a large crack/pop when I start a session and if I hit stop at the end when I am ready to walk away.  If I load more tracks or change from playlist to playlist I do not get the loud cracks.

I also posted at JRiver and folks there mentioned a mute issue is likely and that is being discussed here as well so unfortunately this needs to be dealt with.  Lukasz said no one had this problem before but it appears others are so I hope we can contribute to a solution.  The music inbetween the pops was and is wonderful so....
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: barrows on 31 Oct 2013, 12:01 am
Wisnon:  OK, I mis-understood some of what you were saying.  I thought you were inferring that the filter only, no delta sigma modulator approach was the only "TRUE DSD", sorry for that.
Yes, the other two DACs mentioned use 6-8 bits to convert to analog, but they do not truncate the DSD sample rate.  This is a matter of terminology more than anything.  I would not call this approach converting to PCM, but, if they converted a 2.8 MHz DSD data stream to 352.8 kHz then I would consider that converting to PCM.  Actually, by converting to a multi bit format these DACs perform better than any single bit converter ever has from a technical perspective.  Whether or not this sounds better is up to the listener to decide during an audition.
There are other choices if single bit conversion is one's religion.  The Sonore/exD DSD DAC converts DSD using a single bit DAC, has a better USB interface than the Amanero, and costs under $2K. 
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: ted_b on 31 Oct 2013, 12:03 am
?  eXD uses Amanero, no?
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: barrows on 31 Oct 2013, 01:57 am
exD uses their own USB interface.  It is available for DIY folks as well.  It is an in house design (not XMOS, CMedia, etc).
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: k6davis on 31 Oct 2013, 09:10 pm
So Ted_B...

When that LampizatOr DSD DAC review is ready, where will it be posted?

I need to know which website to keep refreshing...   :P
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: ted_b on 31 Oct 2013, 09:20 pm
I will post the info here.  It will be a mini-review (i.e a larger post).  Plus, I am soooooo far behind in writing for Computer Audiophile (Chord review) that Chris would fire me if I did another DC there before the Chord.  :)  Most importantly....everyone who has helped with this (wisnon, gopher, berto) are all AC veterans.  The NY rave DSD-only DAC arrives here tmrw, and today I sent the dysfunctional one back to NY for repairs. 
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: ted_b on 31 Oct 2013, 09:58 pm
exD uses their own USB interface.  It is available for DIY folks as well.  It is an in house design (not XMOS, CMedia, etc).

You're right, sorry.  Jesus thought my Lampi DSD proto used the exD board..which I then equated to Amanero (since it is indeed an Amanero board).  He corrected himself to me today.  Sorry for the tangent.
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: k6davis on 31 Oct 2013, 10:18 pm
I will post the info here.  It will be a mini-review (i.e a larger post).  Plus, I am soooooo far behind in writing for Computer Audiophile (Chord review) that Chris would fire me if I did another DC there before the Chord.  :)  Most importantly....everyone who has helped with this (wisnon, gopher, berto) are all AC veterans.  The NY rave DSD-only DAC arrives here tmrw, and today I sent the dysfunctional one back to NY for repairs.

I'm even more excited knowing that you'll be reviewing the same unit that was so impressive at the NY rave!!

I'm sure you would have anyway, but I'd like to request that you explain the configuration of that LampizatOr DSD DAC, if possible. Does it have balanced outputs, Duelund capacitors etc.? Oh and a photo or two (especially of the back) would be great if you can.

I'll wait for your review here.

Thanks!
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: ted_b on 31 Oct 2013, 10:41 pm
I assume it'll be the same as what I had.  USB input, RCA outs, IEC socket for power cord.  I don't think either box had the Duelunds in it.  Berto, Fred?

Scot's pic from his first listen:
(http://audiograb.files.wordpress.com/2013/10/ct6a0997.jpg)

Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: wisnon on 31 Oct 2013, 11:02 pm
I think LF said the NY DSD Dac has Soviet Caps with small V-Caps bypass added to them.

The one that was damaged  had just Soviet caps….not sure if it too was bypassed.
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: Berto on 31 Oct 2013, 11:18 pm
I think LF said the NY DSD Dac has Soviet Caps with small V-Caps bypass added to them.

The one that was damaged  had just Soviet caps….not sure if it too was bypassed.

Yes that is correct. The demos are not balanced nor do they have Duelunds in it.

Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: Big Red Machine on 31 Oct 2013, 11:20 pm
Speaking of tangents Ted, I almost rang you up as I was at NASA Glenn center Tuesday.
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: ted_b on 31 Oct 2013, 11:21 pm
You should have, Pete.  15 minutes away!
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: TF1216 on 1 Nov 2013, 02:51 am
exD uses their own USB interface.  It is available for DIY folks as well.  It is an in house design (not XMOS, CMedia, etc).

Is this what you at referring to (http://www.sonore.us/DIY.html)?
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: wisnon on 1 Nov 2013, 10:06 am
Tf12,

What kind of speaker is that in your Avatar?
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: TF1216 on 1 Nov 2013, 01:22 pm
Tf12,

What kind of speaker is that in your Avatar?

It's a DIY 3-way I built with a few friends.  The speaker uses a ribbon tweeter, a polypropylene midrange, and an aluminum woofer.  :thumb:

Thank you for asking.  It makes a guy feel good when folks ask about their STUFF.
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: wisnon on 1 Nov 2013, 07:20 pm
Congrats.

Very attractive implementation.

How would you describe the sound?
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: TF1216 on 1 Nov 2013, 07:47 pm
Congrats.

Very attractive implementation.

How would you describe the sound?

Thank you. 

I am embarrassed to admit but I have not had the chance to really listen to the speakers for what they were made for.  I have always lived in apartments and have been fussing with DIY electronics too much to have everything working unitedly.  :duh:  For movies they speakers are downright awesome with their matching center channel.  I love them!

I expect to have my DAC back up and running very shortly.  Once that is a GO I hope to have my DIY amp repaired and I will be in business.  I live in a home now so all is well in the world  :thumb:

My friend who helped with the crossover design and cabinet construction is quite talented.  I think the sky is the limit once I get back in business. 
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: wisnon on 1 Nov 2013, 08:02 pm
NICE!
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: TF1216 on 1 Nov 2013, 08:33 pm
I am in Minnesota wisnon.  Maybe we will cross paths at an audio function sometime.   :thumb:
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: wisnon on 1 Nov 2013, 10:00 pm
I am in Minnesota wisnon.  Maybe we will cross paths at an audio function sometime.   :thumb:

LoL

I am in Switzerland!

Closest I have been to the Minn is Chicago last Summer….or is Seattle closer?
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: TF1216 on 2 Nov 2013, 01:43 am
LoL

I am in Switzerland!

Closest I have been to the Minn is Chicago last Summer….or is Seattle closer?

 :oops:  I thought you were from Wisconsin.  My bad.  Chicago is a few hours away by car.  Seattle is half a country away.  Well, if we ever do cross paths I hope it's nearer to your parts of the world.    :)
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: wisnon on 2 Nov 2013, 12:49 pm
Not a problem. Yeah, I hope so too...
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: ted_b on 2 Nov 2013, 03:08 pm
By the way, speaking of the eXD DAC...I still, to this day, put it in my favorite under-$1500 DACs I've ever heard, DSD or PCM.  It is amazing, and per Barrows points, does some things that are very high-end (i.e one bit processing, great USB board, etc).

Looks like Jesus (Sonore US) is trying to get rid of some of his stock, and is accepting offers!  Go for it.
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=118734.msg1248161#msg1248161
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: this_is_vv on 4 Nov 2013, 04:34 am
any idea of this dac??

http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/ami2/2.html


V
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: k6davis on 6 Nov 2013, 08:34 am
K6Davis,

Also, upsampled DSD128 works fine, but as I noted a couple days ago I am not using that function realtime, but instead I had JRiver convert some favorite PCM to DSD128 offline.  If your server has enough horsepower, go for on-the-fly, but be aware the PCM-to-DSD128 process is VERY cpu intensive.  In a single pc setup (where JRiver and the dac driver are on the same machine) I'm not sure what kind of sonics you'd get with a cpu working so hard.

Stay tuned.

I'm just starting to look into the world of Audio PC optimization.

My impression of the Dual PC concept is that the installation on the Audio PC is ultra light (something like OS & JPlay), while the Control PC is a more typical OS installation, running your playback software and (perhaps several) other things. My question is: How can the Audio PC improve upon what is the presumably dirtier signal coming from the Control PC?

It seems like the weakest link in the chain (the least optimized of the two PC's) would determine the effectiveness of the whole Dual PC setup. If that's the case, it would seem to make more sense to run just one machine and optimize that.

I'm hoping there's something about this that I don't understand, because I'd love to have my Control PC upsampling to DSD128 in JRiver, while still reaping the benefits of low resource optimization in the Audio PC.

Is that really possible?

How is two better than one?
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: zybar on 6 Nov 2013, 12:58 pm
I get my AuraLic Vega DSD DAC on Friday.   :thumb:

I will definitely be setting up JRiver to upsample to DSD.

George
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: shadowlight on 6 Nov 2013, 02:01 pm

I will definitely be setting up JRiver to upsample to DSD.


I have seen this mentioned multiple times.  Do you upsample everything to DSD one song at a time or can you set it up for everything?  If everything where in JRiver do you setup?

TIA
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: jtwrace on 6 Nov 2013, 02:03 pm
I have seen this mentioned multiple times.  Do you upsample everything to DSD one song at a time or can you set it up for everything?  If everything where in JRiver do you setup?

TIA
It's a setting in JRiver that will do it for all (if you want).


See here (http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=82074.0)
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: shadowlight on 6 Nov 2013, 02:13 pm
It's a setting in JRiver that will do it for all (if you want).


See here (http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=82074.0)

Thanks Jason.
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: ted_b on 6 Nov 2013, 02:29 pm
I'm just starting to look into the world of Audio PC optimization.

My impression of the Dual PC concept is that the installation on the Audio PC is ultra light (something like OS & JPlay), while the Control PC is a more typical OS installation, running your playback software and (perhaps several) other things. My question is: How can the Audio PC improve upon what is the presumably dirtier signal coming from the Control PC?

It seems like the weakest link in the chain (the least optimized of the two PC's) would determine the effectiveness of the whole Dual PC setup. If that's the case, it would seem to make more sense to run just one machine and optimize that.

I'm hoping there's something about this that I don't understand, because I'd love to have my Control PC upsampling to DSD128 in JRiver, while still reaping the benefits of low resource optimization in the Audio PC.

Is that really possible?

How is two better than one?

The idea is not really any different than any other client-server or component-ized setup...i.e...isolating and optimizing one machine to do one thing well.  In this case, most who use JPlay in a streamer (aka dual pc) setup optimize BOTH controlpc and audiopc.  The audiopc is set up to do nothing but playback music, and contains only the dac driver, jplay service and an optimized minimalist OS setup.  The audiopc gets music data streamed to it via ethernet (set up to be a private network) from the controlpc, and therefore relives it, the audiopc, of any data/music retrieval, any display issues, any DSP cpu-intensive stuff, etc.   In fact, it is set to hibernate during playback, turning off all other processes unnecessary for playback.  Yes, the controlpc could be a multi-purpose box but most of us use it dedicated running Windows Server 2012 or Windows 8 and optimize it as well. 

So, regardless of controlpc "dirtiness" the audiopc concept is dedicated to playback only, and that in and of itself is a big win.  All this being said, if you took those financial resources and poured them into a single pc and optimized it, maybe you'd get close, yes.  Dual pc allows for evolving improvement and not a "all your eggs in one basket" commitment.
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: dminches on 6 Nov 2013, 03:29 pm
I would think that any PC with an i5 core processor would have way more than enough processing power to do everything. I think this is only an issue with much lesser processors. Am I overstating this?

 I am running Logitech media server on my Synology NAS which has a pretty weak processor. I never have an issue with streaming.
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: ted_b on 6 Nov 2013, 03:36 pm

You are streaming jplay?  I'm specifically talking Jplay, as that is what k6davis asked about..my dual pc setup.  Jplay takes some cpu cycles and my recommendations are an i7 or Xeon equivalent as a single pc or as an audiopc; the controlpc can be smaller (but my Caps V2+ is too small for DSP, upsampling, etc) but again, if you are asking it to do multiple things including DSP I'd get an i5 or bigger.  If you are talking generic streaming, then of course an i5 is plenty...hell, I streamed on a tiny Atom processor in my Alix Linux box.  But the sonics are NOWHERE near what I am getting with my duyal pc Jplay setup.  YMMV.
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: dminches on 6 Nov 2013, 03:47 pm
Thanks Ted.  I need to read up on the dual PC setup since I have been on LMS for years now.
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: holzohr on 6 Nov 2013, 03:51 pm
Thanks Ted for explaining. I was wondering about this Audio PC/Control PC solution. I am not up to date anymore with jriver, jplay and so on.

Actually, I didn`t want to have a computer anymore in my music/living room but with a fanless pc and a SSD built-in. Why not? I wrote here http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=119364.msg1272893#msg1272893 about Daphile http://www.daphile.com/#overview So I guess, the Daphile Box is the Audio PC and a Tablet is the Control PC (via browser or Squeezebox app) in my case. Apart of upsampling to DSD128 it offers everything I need at the moment.

Many ways lead to Rome  :)
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: Syrah on 6 Nov 2013, 04:15 pm
This is interesting.  I have a Caps Zuma that I'm using with JRiver with a Synology NAS.  If I wanted to try the ControlPC/AudioPC set up, how would I do that?

I have been thinking about getting a Microsoft Surface to use as a JRiver remote and to otherwise use as a PC while listening to music.
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: k6davis on 6 Nov 2013, 05:00 pm
You are streaming jplay?  I'm specifically talking Jplay, as that is what k6davis asked about..my dual pc setup.  Jplay takes some cpu cycles and my recommendations are an i7 or Xeon equivalent as a single pc or as an audiopc; the controlpc can be smaller (but my Caps V2+ is too small for DSP, upsampling, etc) but again, if you are asking it to do multiple things including DSP I'd get an i5 or bigger.  If you are talking generic streaming, then of course an i5 is plenty...hell, I streamed on a tiny Atom processor in my Alix Linux box.  But the sonics are NOWHERE near what I am getting with my duyal pc Jplay setup.  YMMV.

Thanks for your thoughtful response.

In addition to your comment, I read elsewhere that a more powerful processor in the audiopc was beneficial, which I find surprising. I would have thought that the audiopc could be a lower performance machine. It basically hibernates, it runs as few processes & services as possible, it isn't manipulating the data it's receiving (correct?). By design, it isn't doing much. Used in that manner, I would have guessed that a Core i7 would yield no benefit over a Core i3.

Anyway, I would really like to know/read more about how it works and how you use it.

It sounds as though the audiopc *only* has the OS & JPlay. Is that correct? Once it's configured, do you just turn it on and run it headless, with no mouse/keyboard/screen?
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: ted_b on 6 Nov 2013, 05:21 pm
Yes, audiopc is headless, has no access to the internet and I access it through the controlpc via remote desktop.  It runs jplay, the Os and the DAC driver.  It is connected to the controlpc via Ethernet cable (controlpc needs two Ethernet connections so one is mobo and one is NIC card) and has an audiophile grade USB card for the DAC..I use Paul Pangs version one card, separately powered via linear.

I may start a separate thread about all this.  We are getting a little off topic.   :D
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: this_is_vv on 6 Nov 2013, 05:25 pm
Yes, audiopc is headless, has no access to the internet and I access it through the controlpc via remote desktop.  It runs jplay, the Os and the DAC driver.  It is connected to the controlpc via Ethernet cable (controlpc needs two Ethernet connections so one is mobo and one is NIC card) and has an audiophile grade USB card for the DAC..I use Paul Pangs version one card, separately powered via linear.

I may start a separate thread about all this.  We are getting a little off topic.   :D

i am interested to know about it...please start a topic
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: k6davis on 6 Nov 2013, 07:58 pm
i am interested to know about it...please start a topic

+1
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: Deribas on 9 Nov 2013, 11:49 pm
Benchmark DAC2 as a preamp for stereo digital sources and HT pass-through mode for mch

There has been a lot of discussions about ESS Sabre-based DACs, including Benchmark DAC2 and even Oppo 105, as a potential DAC+preamp solution, if only the volume control was comparable in quality to a good analogue preamp.  For my needs, an additional requirement is an analogue unity-gain pass through, aka HT bypass feature, because I listen to a lot of multichannel sources which undergo d/a conversion in an Onkyo processor with Audyssey multEq XT32. I would like not to send hires stereo music (PCM up to 24/192 and DSD) through Onkyo at all, but instead directly from my Squeezebox Touch to (not yet purchased) benchmark DAC2 via USB. Multichannel front L and R analogue outputs from Onkyo would then go to the DAC2's HT bypass analogue inputs.  DAC2 has a complicated-sounding "hybrid" analogue and digital volume control, which allows it to function as a preamp for both kinds of sources.

I experimented with a similar setup earlier using Peachtree grand Integrated x1 as a DAC/preamp, feeding into the two channels of my Bryston mch amplifier. With digital stereo sources, it sounded superb, but HT bypass was somehow noisy (compared to onkyo directly into Bryston amp).

Has anyone used Benchmark DAC2 in this fashion, and what were your conclusions? Can anybody also comment on the volume control of Dac2 acting as a preamp?

Thanks for reading.
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: sts9fan on 10 Nov 2013, 12:46 am
I switched from using a Pass X1 pre to just a the DAC2. I think it's fantastic.   
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: poseidonsvoice on 10 Nov 2013, 12:51 am
Here is a nice list:

http://www.audiostream.com/content/dsd-ready-dacs-short-list

Best,
Anand
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: ted_b on 10 Nov 2013, 02:23 am
Or you could use mine...

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AgVhKcl_3lHfdFVyenBBNjNpQ2lieG81WGpqQTNfVUE#gid=0
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: poseidonsvoice on 10 Nov 2013, 02:41 am
Or you could use mine...

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AgVhKcl_3lHfdFVyenBBNjNpQ2lieG81WGpqQTNfVUE#gid=0

:notworthy:

Best,
Anand.
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: wisnon on 10 Nov 2013, 09:23 am
Ted, the Lumin is $7K now.

The $4K price was a special introductory offer that is long gone.
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: ted_b on 10 Nov 2013, 02:22 pm
Good heads up, Norman.  I knew that and yet forgot to update.  It's actually $7200 and has been bumped up twice since the intro offer.  Thx
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: Audioclyde on 10 Nov 2013, 02:24 pm
Ted, have you received the working Lampi yet?

Thanks,

Randy
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: ted_b on 10 Nov 2013, 02:26 pm
No, it will be later this week.  I look forward to it.
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: PhilipAC on 10 Nov 2013, 02:45 pm
Ted

Which Lampi will it be? DSD only? Balanced or SE? Vol control? Which CAPs?

Thanks
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: wisnon on 10 Nov 2013, 02:56 pm
DSD only, single ended, no VC, Polyprop caps.
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: k6davis on 11 Nov 2013, 03:22 pm
Ted_b,

Regarding the Lampi DSD DAC, one little detail that I'm curious about that may not have made it to the review is the dimensions of the unit. That's the kind of thing you can find on the manufacturer's website of more mainstream products, but I didn't see it on the LampizatOr site.

When you review it, could you measure the size of the unit?
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: ted_b on 11 Nov 2013, 03:23 pm
Sure, although I think it's the same size as all of them?  Guys?  Norman?  Fred?
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: wisnon on 11 Nov 2013, 04:47 pm
Yes, same size.

I can measure mine later and let KD know the dimensions.
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: wisnon on 11 Nov 2013, 07:20 pm
Level 4 (and DSD-only Dac) is :16 inches wide by 13 inches deep and just over 4.5 inches high.

Level 5 would be 2 such near identical boxes.
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: Russtafarian on 11 Nov 2013, 08:20 pm
Quote
Has anyone used Benchmark DAC2 in this fashion, and what were your conclusions? Can anybody also comment on the volume control of Dac2 acting as a preamp?

That's exactly how I use it and it works very well.  I use the DAC2 as a preamp and connect the following sources: Win7/Jriver PC to USB, Oppo 103 to SPDIF 1, SB Touch to SPDIF 2, Phono preamp to Analog 1, Sony multi-channel analog preamp L & R to Analog 2 set to HT bypass.

The sound of the DAC is well documented.  What doesn't get a lot of attention is that the analog line stage (no digitization) is excellent.  It sounds clean, clear, quiet, open, transparent, etc, etc, and its output stage will drive any combination of cables and amps connected to it.  My phono rig took a significant step up in performance when I moved to the DAC2 as my preamp.

The main thing to keep in mind with the DAC2 is that it's tuned for neutrality.  It doesn't do the whole tube, transformer, oil cap magical mystery tour thing.  If that's what you want, run the DAC2 into tube gear to get the triode saturation point that you desire.  My DAC2 feeds EL34 monoblocks and I love the combination.

Russ
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: findog3103 on 11 Nov 2013, 08:48 pm
I have found the preamp section of the lampi truly amazing. I auditioned the dac2 and it doesn't come close to the lampi.
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: PhilipAC on 11 Nov 2013, 09:57 pm
I agree.

It sounded better than my £12000 pre.
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: k6davis on 12 Nov 2013, 04:58 am
Level 4 (and DSD-only Dac) is :16 inches wide by 13 inches deep and just over 4.5 inches high.

Level 5 would be 2 such near identical boxes.

Very much appreciated, wisnon!  :thumb:
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: Deribas on 12 Nov 2013, 02:04 pm
That's exactly how I use it and it works very well.  I use the DAC2 as a preamp and connect the following sources: Win7/Jriver PC to USB, Oppo 103 to SPDIF 1, SB Touch to SPDIF 2, Phono preamp to Analog 1, Sony multi-channel analog preamp L & R to Analog 2 set to HT bypass.



Thank you. That's the info I was looking for
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: jamesg11 on 13 Nov 2013, 07:07 am
Thank you. That's the info I was looking for
Russtafarian, with the HT bypass thru Analog 2, have you used & had lip synch issues with blurays? ie. audio getting ahead of image - or are you just doing pure audio?
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: Russtafarian on 13 Nov 2013, 06:11 pm
Quote
Russtafarian, with the HT bypass thru Analog 2, have you used & had lip synch issues with blurays? ie. audio getting ahead of image - or are you just doing pure audio?

No video, just audio, so I don't know if there are sync issues.
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: holzohr on 14 Nov 2013, 04:24 pm
I wonder is there a (auto-muting?) DSD-ready DAC that doesn't "click" when switching from PCM to DSD and back? Also when switching between DSD64 and DSD128?

I am very happy with my Matrix X-Sabre but these clicks...  :nono: Also, the DAC is in PCM mode by default. It should remain in the last mode that was used.

Hmm.. when will I be satisfied?  :green:
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: Audioclyde on 14 Nov 2013, 04:26 pm
My Meitner MA-1 makes no noise when switching resolutions, redbook to high rez to DSD, etc. (of course it only does DSD64 at this point).
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: wisnon on 14 Nov 2013, 04:40 pm
Then Meitner does not switch modes really. Its always in DSD. Every input is converted to DSD.
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: ted_b on 14 Nov 2013, 04:47 pm
I've had over a dozen DSD-capable DACs in here and very few click between PCM and DSD selections.  My Meitner, for example, is dead quiet.  I didn't notice anything with the Chord either.  The tiniest of ticks in between DSD tracks is a function of the edit master being cut into tracks (DSF or DFF).  If there is music in that edit you can't possibly hear it. 
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: Audioclyde on 14 Nov 2013, 04:48 pm
Wisnon:  That is correct with the Meitner, but I assumed the OP was having issues with DAC's making noises re switching between the resolution of the source being input.
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: holzohr on 14 Nov 2013, 04:49 pm
Thanks! Afaik the LUMIN can convert PCM to DSD on-the-fly, too.
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: ted_b on 14 Nov 2013, 04:53 pm
Thanks! Afaik the LUMIN can convert PCM to DSD on-the-fly, too.

Nope, the Lumin is not a one-bit DAC.  That conversion is likely in the player end of the signal path (Linux MPD-like). 
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: holzohr on 14 Nov 2013, 05:21 pm
Ted, yes. I find the Lumin's on-the-fly converting a nice feature. I wonder if I should go this DSD-only way. Listening to mixed PCM/DSD playlists (or in shuffle mode) is not that nice with these clicks. Well, usually I listen to albums. At least the Matrix doesn't click when the (PCM) sampling rate is changing.

I have read here about the DSD-only DACs (Lampizator and Loki). That`s very interesting!
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: ted_b on 14 Nov 2013, 06:09 pm
Holzohr,
I am not sure of your point.  There seems to be confusion over the term DSD-only DAC.  It means those DACs that will play only DSD formatted files.  The Meitner, EMM and Playback Designs DACs, those DACs that are exclusively using proprietary one-bit chip technology (i.e everything is internally processed as  some multiple of DSD) are not DSD-only DACs; they accept and play PCM from any PCM source. 

The Lumin is not a one-bit chip design, nor is a DSD-only DAC/streamer.  It is like the vast majority of SDM Dacs that accept both DSD and PCM file formats, and that do multibit internal resampling to deliver the analog output.

I would LOVE for someone who has both the technical know-how and the user friendly bedside manner, to explain, in laymens terms but in detail, the various DSD DAC implementations (R2R, FPGA, SABRE, one-bit, SD chip, etc) and their pluses and minuses.  As we all know, the architecture is one-thing (and that is what I'd like described by someone) the implementation of that digital architecture and it passing to a quality analog stage with quality power supplies....cleanly out the analog outputs....that's a whole 'nother thing...and typically more important than the chip design.  But if one digital design is that much more effective at delivering musical PCM AND DSD, then I would guess the back end (analog stage, power supplies) could do an even better job. 

The guys over on CA that seem to have huge technical backgrounds about these DACs have, for the most part, either a personal agenda to push their own (of course) or a lack of being able to "dumb it down" enough for the educated consumer. 
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: holzohr on 14 Nov 2013, 07:46 pm
Ted, thank you very much for broaden my horizon. Much appreciated! I guess I understand now about the different DACs and their used chips.

I found the DSD-only DACs interesting and understood they will play only DSD-files. But converting "all my" PCM files to DSD with the Korg AudioGate (probably Twitter would close my account very soon after posting dozens of bla-bla messages), that's a work I better avoid.

So, the Playback Designs MPD-3 DAC could be the solution?  :drool:  Why I didn't know about these DACs before?  :duh: 
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: ted_b on 14 Nov 2013, 07:51 pm
Well, it's all about tradeoffs.  The one-bit chip DACs like PD are great at DSD, of course, but even I, who has thousands of SACDs ripped, still have the overwhelming vast majority of my tracks (maybe not my storage :) ) in PCM...and these one-bit DACs take PCM on a journey that is unnecessary with other DACs.  Horses for courses!
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: holzohr on 14 Nov 2013, 08:34 pm
Well, it's all about tradeoffs.
That' s so true.

Surprisingly, I have found a PD dealer here in Berlin, even not that far from me! Must be destiny or something like that?  :green:  Hmm.. the shop is offering a "technique evening" every friday. Is tomorrow friday? Suddenly, I am so curious on this DAC. That's childish, isn't it?  :oops:

Ok, I am not in a hurry at all. The Matrix X-Sabre is a nice DAC. It does it very well in my "strange" Lyngdorf setup. I keep my wallet closed, at least till the end of the year  8) But definitely, I will have a look and "an ear" at the MPD-3.

Thanks again for having mentioned these one-bit DACs  :)

Mario

Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: wisnon on 14 Nov 2013, 08:38 pm
Ted, thank you very much for broaden my horizon. Much appreciated! I guess I understand now about the different DACs and their used chips.

I found the DSD-only DACs interesting and understood they will play only DSD-files. But converting "all my" PCM files to DSD with the Korg AudioGate (probably Twitter would close my account very soon after posting dozens of bla-bla messages), that's a work I better avoid.

So, the Playback Designs MPD-3 DAC could be the solution?  :drool:  Why I didn't know about these DACs before?  :duh:

???

You only need to do the Korg Audiogate Twitter thing once!
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: ted_b on 14 Nov 2013, 08:43 pm
Holzohr, if you are sending everything to a Lyngdorf I would not invest heavily in pure native DSD.  Your amp is a PCM-based amp.  Just get the best PCM DAC you can hear inhome, and then convert DSD to 24/352k PCM.  My recommendation is the updated Chord QuteHDEX.
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: holzohr on 14 Nov 2013, 08:47 pm
Loading 33,500 FLAC files into the Korg and converting all of them in a session? How long would that take?  :o

Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: ted_b on 14 Nov 2013, 08:51 pm
Loading 33,500 FLAC files into the Korg and converting all of them in a session? How long would that take?  :o

If that question is for me, you are going the wrong way.  Don't convert PCM to DSD and then have your digital amp convert it back to PCM.  Take you DSD files and use JRIver (for example, no Twitter feed needed) to convert offline to 24/352.8k (aka DXD).  This is using the broad assumption that you use the Lyngdorf in a normal digital way.  I use the same logic for folks who want to get into DSD but at the end of the day (and signal path) I find out they use digital speaker crossovers like Behringer...aka PCM.

Be nice to your digital music.  :)
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: holzohr on 14 Nov 2013, 09:06 pm
Ted, the Matrix is connected with the TDAI 2200 via analog XLR. I admit that gave me a headache before if that will make sense at all, this D(SD)/A --> A/D processing. All I can say is it makes sense (to me). Though in the first days I was not really happy with the sound. I guess the DAC and also the Lyngdorf A/D card (it was new, too) needed a burn-in time. So now I am not wasting any thought about that D/A ->> A/D processing anymore  :) Ok, from time to time I do  :green:

For the future I plan to change to active speakers (indeed that' s more urgent than a DAC upgrade) so the Lyngdorf amp is not here for eternal, probably. Btw the new TDAI 2170 has an asynchronus USB DAC but DSD is not implemented in the firmware yet. Still waiting for a news-update from Denmark. 
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: BPT on 15 Nov 2013, 12:04 am
Ted:
The Lyngdorf processes digital at 24/96 (maybe 24/192 in the newest stuff--don't know), so he should convert DSD to the native sample process rate for best results.  That way it isn't converted again inside the unit.
Chris H.
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: ted_b on 15 Nov 2013, 12:48 am
Chris,
Your point is a good one, but especially if he were sending digital PCM to the Lyngdorf...send it in 24/xxx, whatever the Lyngdorf can handle without more up or down sampling.  He is coming into the Lyngdorf via analog, so is he doing an A/D, regardless.  So how he gets his music to analog is up to him.  The PCM or DSD rate before he goes analog is now kinda irrelevant to his final step,  going analog to PCM (24/96, let's say).  So he needs to determine what sounds good to him in analog, but his bottleneck or weak link is that final A/D.  So having a DAC that does native DSD is secondary to that. 

Holzohr, can you come in digitally?  It would mean huge advances and would eliminate a number of conversions now happening in your signal path. 
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: holzohr on 15 Nov 2013, 04:08 pm
I shouldn't have mentioned the Lyngdorf  :D I know the additional A/D processing sounds strange and not optimal for purists  :shh: The built-in DAC (Wolfson somethings) can handle 24bit/192kHz. The ADC converts the analog signal to 24/96.

I have bought the amp without that ADC, it came with digital inputs only so I was practicing the digital way with an Oppo 103 and a HDMI-Audio De-embedder for several months. I liked what the Lyngdorf made of the Oppo's 88.2kHz PCM with SACDs and DSD-files playback and preferred it compared to the Matrix - ADC connection in their first days here but that changed totally. At the end I even removed the HDMI-Audio De-embedder and connected the Oppo and the amp analog. This ADC is doing a great job, I even like to listen to vinyl again. So for the moment it is ok (to me) as it is.

For the future I plan a less complicated rig. Active speakers (B&M Prime 6). Then I could hook a DAC directly via analog XLR until I have found an analog preamp alternative. It seems that I have to say farvel to Lyngdorf sooner or later. Won't be that easy  :bawl: 
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: TF1216 on 20 Nov 2013, 06:07 pm
Has anyone listened to the "DSD Battle Royale!" yet?

http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showthread.php?11944-DSD-Battle-Royale!&p=231876&viewfull=1#post231876
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: DZetye on 20 Nov 2013, 08:16 pm
how do you download the Battle Royale file?  looks interesting but can't seem to get anything
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: ted_b on 20 Nov 2013, 09:02 pm
how do you download the Battle Royale file?  looks interesting but can't seem to get anything

The ftp link, user id and password are on the link .  Just download the files.  As I posted there, the DSD64 files are missing right no but Bruce has promised to re-upload.  5 DSD64 files and 3 DSD128 files.
http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showthread.php?11944-DSD-Battle-Royale!&p=231876&viewfull=1#post231876
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: TF1216 on 21 Nov 2013, 04:48 pm
ted_b,

Do you know which DACs that are capable of playing back DSD do so without converting to PCM before their analog output? 
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: wisnon on 21 Nov 2013, 05:28 pm
Duplicate
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: wisnon on 21 Nov 2013, 05:28 pm

1 bit Dacs and filter boxes.

That means Sonore eXd, PB Designs, Meitner, EMM Labs, Lampizator are sure. The chipped Dacs except for the 1 bit Cirrus Logic are likely converting, at least partially (multi-bit SDM and DSOP manipulations). At least that is my understanding...
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: ted_b on 21 Nov 2013, 05:34 pm
ted_b,

Do you know which DACs that are capable of playing back DSD do so without converting to PCM before their analog output?

I am not quite sure of your intent.  Anything I call DSD-capable means it accepts native DSD at its input and does not resample before the DAC chip (meaning the DAC chip accepts native DSD, or is chipless filtering like the Lampi).  What the chip does internally is one of several variations.  But that can be said for standard PCM DACs too.  In other words, many PCM DACs internally convert to multi-bit SDM which is frankly a form of DSD.  As I stated earlier in this thread, that is about as far as my tech knowledge goes.  I would LOVE if someone provided a non-biased primer for DSD processing (i.e what do the different digital designs do with DSD and why are they beneficial/harmful).  You have dCS ring, R2R, FPGA, one-bit (a true pure DSD process I know of that is chip-based...but then they convert PCM so that is another tradeoff), SABRE, TI, etc etc,..  My flag is what the signal does before the D/Achip, and if the chip accepts native DSD I'm good with calling it DSD-capable.    Let the flames begin.  :)
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: TF1216 on 21 Nov 2013, 05:47 pm
Thanks for replying guys.

One thing I wanted to deduce with my question is if "reviews" tend to favor DACs that leave DSD in its native form or not.  What I mean be "native form" is if it's left as a single bit and never resampled.  I will admit, I don't have complete understanding of DSD other than its 1-bit, MHz sample rate. 

I have read that DSD is not always single bit and that there is compression involved but I don't know the validity to these statements.  Does anyone know if I am talking nonsense or not?

What else is involved in DSD playback, without a DAC chip, besides the multi-stage filter to retrieve the music content?   
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: zybar on 21 Nov 2013, 06:46 pm
Now for some non-technical comments...

I've had my AuraLic Vega DAC for almost two weeks now and I am extremely happy!  I know it is cliche...but this IS the best my system has ever sounded.

Although I do believe that the Vega is the main contributor to this positive improvement, there were some other changes in my system (preamp upgrade, fresh batteries for my speaker crossover, new fanless computer as my music server).

I'll try and put some thoughts together this weekend around its performance and what it sounds like in my system.

If you have the ability to hear or buy one, I definitely suggest doing so based on my initial impressions.

George
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: edn4x4 on 21 Nov 2013, 07:38 pm
What else is involved in DSD playback, without a DAC chip, besides the multi-stage filter to retrieve the music content?   

Tyler,

Lots of storage and bandwidth!  I have my W4S DAC2 upgraded to the dsd version - I think it was last time you were over - anyway I have more native DSD downloads to listen to.
I have found that my DSD DL compared  with a hi rez equivalent that I own (Nora Jones - Come away with me) from AS and the 24/96 from HDTracks, sound different in my system. I prefer the AS DSD in my system, but need to see what it is that makes it sound different/better in my system.  I just bought the AS version yesterday to perform the actual comparison.  The AS seems like there is more detail/space presence warmth realism etc..

The DSD format for me has been a really pleasant experience and have found great enjoyment with the material  I have DL.  Last night I also listened to Santana ABRAXAS and Muddy Waters Folk singer both were just surreal.

One thing I have been wanting to post is the change of sound I get when I use JRiver 19 to convert to DSD from PCM  - the thing I notice is guitars that are in the left speaker ( think Joe Walsh at the start of Hotel, Pete Townsend on Behind Blue Eyes (electric guitar)) get pushed back into the soundstage and become almost inaudible.  There are a few other examples I have found, and they are all consistent.  The guitar part gets pushed back and is quite noticeable.  So I am not sure if it is from the JRiver conversion or the DAC itself.
Let me know when you want to come over for a listen and we can listen to the various playback options and see what you prefer.
Keep me away from the flames - I enjoy my setup.

Eric
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: poseidonsvoice on 21 Nov 2013, 09:00 pm
Now for some non-technical comments...

I've had my AuraLic Vega DAC for almost two weeks now and I am extremely happy!  I know it is cliche...but this IS the best my system has ever sounded.

Although I do believe that the Vega is the main contributor to this positive improvement, there were some other changes in my system (preamp upgrade, fresh batteries for my speaker crossover, new fanless computer as my music server).

I'll try and put some thoughts together this weekend around its performance and what it sounds like in my system.

If you have the ability to hear or buy one, I definitely suggest doing so based on my initial impressions.

George

+1. My thoughts exactly. The Vega is the real deal.

Best,
Anand.
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: hifial on 21 Nov 2013, 09:46 pm

  "Do you know which DACs that are capable of playing back DSD do so without converting to PCM before their analog output?"

My understanding is that the e20 MK III by exaSound and the Zodiac Platinum by Antelope Audio do NOT convert the DSD to PCM. Both state so on their web sites.
Antelope STRESSES that they do not.

I agree that it would be great to have a list of all the DACs that do not convert the DSD to PCM and that is verifiable.
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: ted_b on 21 Nov 2013, 10:16 pm
  "Do you know which DACs that are capable of playing back DSD do so without converting to PCM before their analog output?"

My understanding is that the e20 MK III by exaSound and the Zodiac Platinum by Antelope Audio do NOT convert the DSD to PCM. Both state so on their web sites.
Antelope STRESSES that they do not.

I agree that it would be great to have a list of all the DACs that do not convert the DSD to PCM and that is verifiable.

NONE of the DSD-capable DACs convert to what we consider PCM.  The exaSound is a great DAC< but the SABRE chip DOES manipulate DSD beyond it's one-bit (internal to the chip), and that is the debate.  I think we are confusing DSD-to-PCM dacs (like the Astell-Kern portable that claims DSD but in fact does 24/xxx) with those chip architectures that internally process DSD into multi-bit SDM, etc.  It is really nor worth worrying about.  The DSD database is ALL DSD dacs. 
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: hifial on 21 Nov 2013, 10:30 pm
Thanks Ted. Yes, that was my understanding too, that "the SABRE chip DOES manipulate DSD beyond it's one-bit (internal to the chip)", but then exaSound states otherwise on their web site so one does not know if one is coming or going. Ugh, I hate when a manufacture plays the word game.

It makes one question all things stated by all manufactures and I do not want to be like that.

Know I wonder if what Antelope states on their web site is "factual" or not.

 
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: tasar on 22 Nov 2013, 04:11 am
Seems our 4 letter friends at Sony, are coming up in our rear view mirror. Their once DSD pet projects now coming to a store near you..... SACD transports (no kidding !), multiple code audio engined DACs (oh my!). Heck, it appears they're playing nice w Apple files. They might pull off the marketing, but then, those 4 letters....S...O...N...Y
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: jackman on 25 Nov 2013, 05:06 pm
Seems our 4 letter friends at Sony, are coming up in our rear view mirror. Their once DSD pet projects now coming to a store near you..... SACD transports (no kidding !), multiple code audio engined DACs (oh my!). Heck, it appears they're playing nice w Apple files. They might pull off the marketing, but then, those 4 letters....S...O...N...Y

I'm going to wait for one of these to become available before making any final decisions.  Hopefully, the price of these will come down to the $600-700 range.  http://www.amazon.com/Sony-HAPS1-Hi-Res-Player-System/dp/B00FFZCZE4/ref=pd_sim_sbs_e_3
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: tasar on 25 Nov 2013, 06:28 pm
The rollout could morph into separates, ie, pull the amp out and give me the audio engine. They have customers who gain from this approach rather than more Sony "all in one" boxes. Hey SONY.... get it right this round !!
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: k6davis on 25 Nov 2013, 06:30 pm
I'm going to wait for one of these to become available before making any final decisions.  Hopefully, the price of these will come down to the $600-700 range.  http://www.amazon.com/Sony-HAPS1-Hi-Res-Player-System/dp/B00FFZCZE4/ref=pd_sim_sbs_e_3

That unit certainly seems to have a lot going for it, but unless I'm mistaken, it doesn't function as a USB connected DAC that plays audio files from a computer. It has it's own operating system and plays files from its internal hard drive or from an externally connected drive.

That may not be a deal breaker for others, but it is for me. I'm happy with the performance, flexibility and look and feel that I get from my computer rig. Sony offers a model further down in this line that does operate as a DAC connected to a computer, but it lacks the pretty screen.  :P I don't know if that model offers the same audio performance as this top of the line unit does.
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: k6davis on 25 Nov 2013, 06:35 pm
The rollout could morph into separates, ie, pull the amp out and give me the audio engine. They have customers who gain from this approach rather than more Sony "all in one" boxes. Hey SONY.... get it right this round !!

With their implementation of audio formats, Sony just seems determined to disappoint high end users.

This is their top of the line model, but as you said, it's a "all in one" type of unit, which is the kind of configuration you'd think they'd market to consumers who value simplicity over flexibility and the best possible sound. You'd think they'd at least offer the option to use this unit as a "normal" DAC. Maybe they will with a firmware update.

As they often do, Sony has confused me here.
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: k6davis on 25 Nov 2013, 06:54 pm
I just saw that the internal HD for this "hi-res" player is 500GB.

ROFL

I know you can add more drives, but still... Sony's got jokes.  :lol:
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: jackman on 25 Nov 2013, 08:16 pm
I just saw that the internal HD for this "hi-res" player is 500GB.

ROFL

I know you can add more drives, but still... Sony's got jokes.  :lol:

Yeah, 500GB is nothing, but I believe anyone using HR files will need external HD's no matter how many TB's Sony spec'd these units with.  I'm not in the market for a Pre/DAC/HD/Amp/Headphone Amp but would like to test the Sony unit with some external HD's in place of my computer/HDD/DAC.  The amp could be decent for desktop use but it's not powerful enough for my speakers.  And Audiogeeks, like myself, like to have options.  The ES version looks interesting but it's $2K retail makes me think twice.  I'll take a chance on a lower model even if I don't use all of the features. 
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: wisnon on 26 Nov 2013, 09:10 am
Rather than just external HDD connections, Sony should offer at least 2 SDXC bays. SDXC has been shown to be the BEST physical transport out there.
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: sts9fan on 1 Dec 2013, 02:32 am
Grabbed the little Schiit Loki for my second system. Quite happy with the outcome.
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: k6davis on 1 Dec 2013, 06:42 am
Grabbed the little Schiit Loki for my second system. Quite happy with the outcome.

I second that. I use JRiver to output all of my music to it as DSD64 and the Loki performs far above what its price would suggest.
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: scorpion on 9 Dec 2013, 11:21 pm
Next out: iFi nano iDSD.

http://www.ifi-audio.com/en/Nano_iDSD.html

/Erling
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: kbuzz3 on 10 Dec 2013, 02:37 am
The rollout could morph into separates, ie, pull the amp out and give me the audio engine. They have customers who gain from this approach rather than more Sony "all in one" boxes. Hey SONY.... get it right this round !!
totally agree i dont understand why no stsnd alone unit.  if they are marketing to the high end crowd-most of us have amps already. lol.  id guess most on this forum have more then one.
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: wisnon on 10 Dec 2013, 08:59 am
Chord announced the Hugo, a high end battery powered DSD-128 capable Dac.
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: Bear on 10 Dec 2013, 03:52 pm
I'm going to wait for one of these to become available before making any final decisions.  Hopefully, the price of these will come down to the $600-700 range.  http://www.amazon.com/Sony-HAPS1-Hi-Res-Player-System/dp/B00FFZCZE4/ref=pd_sim_sbs_e_3

USB input:  http://www.amazon.com/Sony-UDA1-Hi-Res-System-Audio/dp/B00FFZD070/ref=pd_sim_sbs_e_2
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: WireNut on 10 Dec 2013, 04:02 pm

Grabbed the little Schiit Loki for my second system. Quite happy with the outcome.


I'm just learning about DSD. If I got a Loki, where would I get the tunes from?      Is it streaming only or do I store them on my PC?
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: shadowlight on 10 Dec 2013, 05:01 pm
I'm just learning about DSD. If I got a Loki, where would I get the tunes from?      Is it streaming only or do I store them on my PC?


I am still in the learning mode but you will be streaming via your pc connected to loki.  the dsd files can be either be stored locally on your pc or on nas/second pc.  initially i plan to use my laptop to stream dsd which are stored on another pc.
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: ted_b on 10 Dec 2013, 05:08 pm
Shadowlight, that is NOT streaming, that is simply getting DSD files (DSF or DFF) from a hard drive, connected to a pc or NAS (acting as a file server).  Streaming is using an internet path using something like UpNp.  It is not file based, but instead streamed (packets) within TCPIP.  jRIver can be used as a DLNA device and stream DSD to things like a Lumin, but that's not the topic here.  He asked about a Loki, which is a simple USB DAC.  It uses a USB connection from a pc or MAC.

Wirenut, you would get DSD files from download sites (see our threads on DSD download sites) or from ripping your SACDs via a hacked PS3 method (see those threads too).
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: shadowlight on 10 Dec 2013, 05:36 pm
Thx Ted.  Stand corrected  :thumb:
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: tasar on 10 Dec 2013, 06:40 pm
And when you see the $$Cost!! of those downloads, you'll wish you had lots of friends with SACDs ! Now we have come full circle, as DSD was always the organic file (so to speak). As the "me too" marketeering unfolds, the learning curve will be daunting, and brutally expensive. Going back in this discussion, and worth noting, the SONY label includes the technology and ownership (licensing aside), with their own massive libraries. This could get ugly, or then again, cheap depending on which side of the aisle you're on. Me, I'm going to roll over and sleep till the stampede moves by. My bet is many equipment $$$ will be blown as this plays out thru the mass producers. In other words, good dacs will be integrated with garden variety. Can you spell cheap ?
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: scorpion on 10 Dec 2013, 10:36 pm
tasar, I believe you are right. So far I am afraid that the DSD-community is too small to make good money from. May be it will change.
Eventually prices should be no higer than regular CD prices and hopefully no more than the better MP3 downloads, given the existing resource that could
be exploited. Mostly Classical though.

But really any benifitable download should be considered, because as I hear it, most records played back over/converted to DSD benefit of a less agressive sound more analouge sounding.
A benefit at least to my ears.

/Erling
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: raysracing on 13 Dec 2013, 02:06 pm
I was looking up specs on my Sony Streamer for non audio reasons and lo and behold it sounds to me as f it will play DSD files, but I am no expert nor have I ever used it for music. I will try it this weekend and see if it has a bearable DAC. Now to DL my first DSD file.

Can someone look at the specs and see? Seems I can run all files though the USB and control with an iphone app.

http://store.sony.com/sony-smp-n100-network-media-player-with-wi-fi--zid27-SMPN100/cat-27-catid-EOL-Blu-ray-DVD-Internet-Players
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: stereocilia on 13 Dec 2013, 02:12 pm
"Discontinued. Contact us for other options: 877-865-7669"
Why would this be discontinued?
I was looking up specs on my Sony Streamer for non audio reasons and lo and behold it sounds to me as f it will play DSD files, but I am no expert nor have I ever used it for music. I will try it this weekend and see if it has a bearable DAC. Now to DL my first DSD file.

Can someone look at the specs and see? Seems I can run all files though the USB and control with an iphone app.

http://store.sony.com/sony-smp-n100-network-media-player-with-wi-fi--zid27-SMPN100/cat-27-catid-EOL-Blu-ray-DVD-Internet-Players
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: ted_b on 13 Dec 2013, 02:19 pm
No, this Sony streamer of yours does not play DSD (nor FLAC, for example).  I am suspecting it is not hirez either.  Where did you get the feeling it does DSD?

Sony only recently (this fall) announced DSD file-based playback, as we've discussed already.  Any Sony product in the past that even mentioned DSD (their own invention) was an SACD/universal DVD player that could send DSD via HDMI to a DSD-capable AVR.  That, unfortunately, is not file-based.
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: raysracing on 13 Dec 2013, 02:29 pm
No, this Sony streamer of yours does not play DSD (nor FLAC, for example).  I am suspecting it is not hirez either.  Where did you get the feeling it does DSD?

Sony only recently (this fall) announced DSD file-based playback, as we've discussed already.  Any Sony product in the past that even mentioned DSD (their own invention) was an SACD/universal DVD player that could send DSD via HDMI to a DSD-capable AVR.  That, unfortunately, is not file-based.

24bit 192Khz spec and pcm (lpcm) , but honestly I am just scratching the surface about this and dont know all of the required specs.
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: ted_b on 13 Dec 2013, 02:35 pm
24/192 is a PCM spec, not DSD.  Oh well, it plays hirez PCM so that's nice (again, specs are worthless without hearing, and I'd suspect the DAC chip is comfortable at something other than 24/192 as many dac chips have their sweetspot NOT at their max sample rate, especially budget ones).
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: raysracing on 13 Dec 2013, 03:30 pm
24/192 is a PCM spec, not DSD.  Oh well, it plays hirez PCM so that's nice (again, specs are worthless without hearing, and I'd suspect the DAC chip is comfortable at something other than 24/192 as many dac chips have their sweetspot NOT at their max sample rate, especially budget ones).

Thanks and I will continue my self education on DSD. I really like what few hi Rez downloads I have and want more (especially classical). I like jazz and rock on vinyl.
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: ted_b on 13 Dec 2013, 03:41 pm
Thanks and I will continue my self education on DSD. I really like what few hi Rez downloads I have and want more (especially classical). I like jazz and rock on vinyl.

We are NE Ohio neighbors.  I'd be happy to start a DSD discussion (including sharing my SACD ripping guide info) at a NE Ohio GTG.
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: raysracing on 13 Dec 2013, 11:33 pm
ted_B I will be happy to buy you a beer or glass of wine on Lee rd (Bottle house), or Melt on taylor for some discussion.  Check out our thread in regional audiophiles.  I Would love for someone to hear my system and offer cheap solutions or tips I can work on.

Title: Music playback software for ifi nano?
Post by: avahifi on 7 Feb 2014, 09:32 pm
Help.  I just got a ifi nano and it works fine playing 192/24 wave files on my Mac.

However my music player software, Fidelia, seems not to recognize dsd files.

I need a recommendation for appropriate Mac music playback software that is compatible with DSD files and the ifi nano.

Thanks,

Frank Van Alstine
Title: Re: Music playback software for ifi nano?
Post by: ted_b on 7 Feb 2014, 09:44 pm
Help.  I just got a ifi nano and it works fine playing 192/24 wave files on my Mac.

However my music player software, Fidelia, seems not to recognize dsd files.

I need a recommendation for appropriate Mac music playback software that is compatible with DSD files and the ifi nano.

Thanks,

Frank Van Alstine

Frank,
Any of these three will work fine, with JRiver my favorite:
JRiver
Audirvana Plus
Pure Music
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: avahifi on 8 Feb 2014, 05:35 pm
Thanks for the good advice Ted.  I would like to pick your brain about the ifi nano a bit more if you don't mind.

I am wondering just what the coax digital output of the ifi nano is actually doing.

Using my Macbook pro and 192/24 wave or flac files, I can use Fidelia player software and go from the Mac's USB output into the ifi nano, then out its coax digital output into the digital input on our own Fet Valve DAC and it works just fine.

Using J River and DSD 64 files, the digital output of the ifi nano is not compatible (so far) with the coax digital in on our own DAC.  But it does work from its own internal DAC and provides useful but hard sounding analog output.

Am I overlooking some settings in J River (which is kind of a maze for me to figure out) or is the ifi nano putting out DSD from its coax digital output with DSD in?

With either the Schitt DAC or the ifi nano I have great user flexibility but the dinky little IC filter and analog output circuits  both have that hard and sterile characteristics I want to avoid by using my own tube hybrid DAC as the analog engine.

So far standard redbook or 192/24 wave files are better through our own DAC then DSD or 192/24 through the Schitt or ifi nano respectively.

Thanks,

Frank Van Alstine
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: krikor on 8 Feb 2014, 08:16 pm
Am I overlooking some settings in J River (which is kind of a maze for me to figure out) or is the ifi nano putting out DSD from its coax digital output with DSD in?

Per ifi-audio.com:

Output   SPDIF RCA (only PCM up to 192KHz)
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: Tom Alverson on 10 Feb 2014, 01:00 am
Thanks for the good advice Ted.  I would like to pick your brain about the ifi nano a bit more if you don't mind.

I am wondering just what the coax digital output of the ifi nano is actually doing.

Using my Macbook pro and 192/24 wave or flac files, I can use Fidelia player software and go from the Mac's USB output into the ifi nano, then out its coax digital output into the digital input on our own Fet Valve DAC and it works just fine.

Using J River and DSD 64 files, the digital output of the ifi nano is not compatible (so far) with the coax digital in on our own DAC.  But it does work from its own internal DAC and provides useful but hard sounding analog output.

Am I overlooking some settings in J River (which is kind of a maze for me to figure out) or is the ifi nano putting out DSD from its coax digital output with DSD in?

With either the Schitt DAC or the ifi nano I have great user flexibility but the dinky little IC filter and analog output circuits  both have that hard and sterile characteristics I want to avoid by using my own tube hybrid DAC as the analog engine.

So far standard redbook or 192/24 wave files are better through our own DAC then DSD or 192/24 through the Schitt or ifi nano respectively.

Thanks,

Frank Van Alstine

I would put a scope on the SPDIF output of the ifi nano while it is playing a DSD file to see if anything at all is coming out of that port.   If you do see a signal there (that your DAC cannot lock on to) then maybe plug it in to your OPPO if you have the model with SPDIF inputs.  Maybe that will tell you what format it is putting out while playing DSD files?

Tom
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: ted_b on 10 Feb 2014, 01:26 am
Digital outputs (coax, toslink, AES) are not available for DSD, only PCM.  The only way is to package it as FLAC-contained DoP, as per this thread:
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=119364.0
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: roscoeiii on 10 Feb 2014, 01:46 am
Is this "iFi Nano" this iDSD? I have been very interested in the iDSD. May grab one after the next paycheck.

http://www.musicdirect.com/p-161157-ifi-nano-idsd-dac.aspx
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: Tom Alverson on 10 Feb 2014, 03:18 am
Digital outputs (coax, toslink, AES) are not available for DSD, only PCM.  The only way is to package it as FLAC-contained DoP, as per this thread:
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=119364.0

Or a program like Jriver converts the DSD data to PCM so you can play it back on a "normal" DAC.  It is possible (but probably unlikely) that the ifi nano could perform this conversion.  From the Jriver help info:


http://wiki.jriver.com/index.php/DSD_Format

Playback

By default, DSD will be converted to PCM for playback.
The DSD to PCM conversion process converts from 1-bit DSD to 64-bit PCM at 1/8th of the sample rate. The total amount of data from this conversion grows by 8x, so the process is effectively lossless / perfect.
Once you have PCM, it will be 64bit @ 352.8 kHz for DSD, and 64bit @ 705.6 kHz for DSD 2x.
It is rare for hardware to support these high sample rates, so downsampling is required. The option 'Greater than 192kHz' in DSP Studio > Output Format is what is used. There is no way to configure DSD 1x and DSD 2x independently.
DSD contains high frequency noise that could damage ears or equipment. Therefore, a low pass filter is used to remove this ultrasonic noise at playback time. The default low pass is at 24kHz using a 48dB/octave slope. The low pass is configurable in Options > Audio > Advanced > Configure input plug-in > JRiver DSD Plugin. There's a little more detail on our default low pass here.
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: raysracing on 11 Mar 2014, 02:16 am
I just received my ifi DSD DAC using it with the stock config (WASAPI) and PCM in Jriver.  I only own about 3 dsf files.  Please help me understand that since my collection is 95% 16/44 and 48 files I should leave it as is, but if I want maximum playback of dsf files I should go into options and change it to a DSD in DoP format correct even though they play fine in stock config?


I will also try the ASIO version some night.
TIA,
Ray

Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: holzohr on 4 Apr 2014, 05:32 pm
The new Lyngdorf TDAI 2170 does accept DSD64/DSD128 via optional USB DAC and HDMI modules. Just to mention  :)

http://lyngdorf.com/images/Downloads/TDAI-2170_Owners_Manual_-_130314_v1.1.pdf
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: ted_b on 4 Apr 2014, 06:57 pm
The new Lyngdorf TDAI 2170 does accept DSD64/DSD128 via optional USB DAC and HDMI modules. Just to mention  :)

http://lyngdorf.com/images/Downloads/TDAI-2170_Owners_Manual_-_130314_v1.1.pdf

I will hold off putting the Lyngdorf in the DSD database, as it seems to only read DSD (and DSD128) but converts to PCM anyway..so as to do Room Perfect and other DSP.  If this is not bypassable I don't consider the Lyngdorf a DAC capable of listening to native DSD.  Any other info would be helpful.
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: JoshK on 3 Dec 2014, 04:42 pm
Where is this DB you speak of?   
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: ted_b on 3 Dec 2014, 04:59 pm
Where is this DB you speak of?

I made it a sticky last year Josh.

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=114707.0
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: JoshK on 3 Dec 2014, 05:17 pm
Thanks, I must have missed it when searching around.   It says I am offline (I'm not) so I can't display it. 
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: bmoura on 7 Dec 2014, 07:35 pm
Is this "iFi Nano" this iDSD? I have been very interested in the iDSD. May grab one after the next paycheck.

http://www.musicdirect.com/p-161157-ifi-nano-idsd-dac.aspx

Yes, that's the one.
Title: Re: DSD DACs
Post by: Tyson on 7 Dec 2014, 07:56 pm
iFi also has a iDSD Mini coming out in a few months, but it'll be $1500.  Based on what I've heard with the nano and micro, should be very interesting.