AudioCircle
Audio/Video Gear and Systems => Critic's Circle (Equipment Reviews) => Reviews of Accessories => Topic started by: TheChairGuy on 19 Jan 2004, 04:29 pm
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Perusing over Audiogon last week, I ran into a set of ads from a new player called Dakiom. They make 'feedback stabilizers'...with claims to improve every system dramatically by correcting inherent instabilities in feedback circuits to dramatically reduce distortion.
I'd dismiss this guy a a crackpot, but his reply email to me was lucid and considerate. To properly outfit my system with Dakiom's would cost $186.00 with the deal they have going on now...does anyone have any experience with it, or might I be the first guinea pig?
I'm usually not an early adopter, but it's not a ton of money, my MultiAmps sure could use a bit of help on the art of smoothness.
Anybody have a Dakiom story out there...good or otherwise peverse?
http://www.dakiom.com/
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I posted this about a month ago - http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=6488&highlight=dakiom and got less than an overwhelming response!!
Since I've already got Triphazers in my system I skipped these. If you jump I'd certainly be interested in the results!
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Huh, I missed your post on this awhile ago Mr. (now that you are a hi-end dealer!) Byteme.
I decided to go for it....came to $158 and change with shipping and CA tax. I got 2 A103's (for amps) and 2 R103's (for DAC/CD and Pre outs). I didn't really need 5th black box now as my other amp (nifty and cheap Audiosource Amp 3) serves duty solely as sub amp (seems these boxes work on reducing Hi frequncy oscillation/distortion, so sub amps wouldn't seem to benefit that much).
So, you might say I bit, Byte.
I'll post my impressions in a few days. Luckily, it seems they need no break-in, so I'll know soon enough if it was worthwhile. My level of stridency in my system went way south when I changed over my bright/peaky Vandersteens (with damped aluminum Vifa tweeter) to the Optimus LX-8 with polypropelene ribbons...I am enjoying music for greater lengths of time now than before by far. Even my wife hears the difference. But, maybe it CAN get smoother with these little black boxes?
Anyhow, Dakiom has now been PayPal'ed.
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Can't wait to hear the results! Does he still have the deal where you've got to write up a 100 word review about them in order to get the special price??
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Hey, this makes me feel a bit better about the purchase...Martin de Wulf (who I think has posted here on AC before) has the DakiOm stabilizer in his 'Big Rig' system...
He's always impressed me a (properly) skeptical cheapo (I mean, he uses Lowe's speaker wire and a Wal-mart wooden TV tray as isolation bases!), so I kinda' feel better about the purchase now. I think he only has an A103 for his Belles amp in his system, but said this in Bound for Sound Issue 154, December 2003:
<<...vocalists and solo instruments are denser (more solid), with finer natural textures and greater intimacy."
- Martin G. DeWulf, Publisher, Bound For Sound>>
Not that anybody squiggling away with $158 of my hard earned would ruin me, but it's nice to know I'm not THE guinea pig now. Seems I have good company in the mud trough....
Maybe he could expound on it a bit if he's within earshot????
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Can't wait to hear the results! Does he still have the deal where you've got to write up a 100 word review about them in order to get the special price??
Yep, easy enough to do. I tend to have diarrhea-like written tendencies.
I bought 4 total, so I hope to be 4x as charmed as Martin G Dewulf. According to Mr. Dao (owner), the most important among the 4 bought is the R103 attached to the DAC/CD outs, followed by the 2 A103's (attached to the Multiamps), then the last R103 in the preamp outs.
Well, we'll see now won't we.....?
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If you want another validation, Brian was using them on the CD player and I think later the speaker cables at the VMPS room at CES and felt they made a positive contribution to the sound.
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Thanks John. DakiOm referred to Brian/VMPS' 'endorsement' on their site, and I took much solace from it.
As his gear in every facet is better than mine and HE heard an improvement, I look forward to hearing it in my more modest system soon. Thanks for the additional feedback.
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Allright, so the 4 DakiOm's made it here in record time...like one darn shipping day...kudos to USPS and DakiOm.. I was away for a few days and only plugged one R103 (into CD Player....sans DAC/Power Base now awaiting new digital cable) and listened for an hour or so.
Encouraging start...I don't remember 44.1Hz sounding so smooth and non-fatiguing here. I've been listening at 96, 132 and now 192Hz oversampling with great effect for a couple years now with the MSB and while the resolution is much greater oversampled, it magnifies the other thigs (like jitter, etc). Nonetheless, it's always been better than 44.1 redbook. The differences between the two is now 'shortened' a bit in teh first quick listen...interesting. :idea:
3 more DakiOm's (1 R103 for preamp and 2 A103's for MultiAmps) to be added shortly...
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I ordered a couple, just for the hell of it. At the sale price (as long as you agree to give them a review) I think it'll be fun to see what they do. I emailed an EE friend though, here was his take on their approach:
Gary,
I read through his technology section and although it was sprinkled with actual facts, I don’t think his assertions about positive feedback apply to _most_ amplifiers above $100. One of the most important aspects of an amplifier is its phase margin, which is essentially the phase angle of the output audio at the point where the gain of the amplifier reaches unity. So, phase margin = 180 – output signal phase angle (at unity gain). As he indicates correctly, if the amplifiers phase margin is 0 or positive at the unity gain point, the amplifiers feedback circuit essentially makes the transition from a stable negative feedback system to an unstable positive feedback system.
Any decent amplifiers (certainly the ones you deal with) have extremely stable designs with PLENTY of phase margin. While its true that a circuit which could somehow detect the phase lag between the output and input, then scale down the input signal to ensure the amplifiers didn’t cross into positive feedback would help a poorly designed amplifier, I don’t think the amplifiers you are dealing with are affected by this.
Now, I am not surprised that people hear a difference, since surely this device is altering the incoming signal in such a way to prevent what it deems as possible unstable feedback, but I suspect that there really is no point at which their amplifiers are coming close to an unstable feedback (phase margin >= 0). They are probably just hearing artifacts of a circuit that is incorrectly determining phase margin and altering the input signal when it shouldn’t be.
There are devices that can measure an amplifiers phase margin, but I don’t know what they cost. We have one at work and even our cheesy amplifier designs have plenty of margin.
Hope this helps,
Mike
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I'm with you Gary, it's worth a shot.
I've been looking at these DakiOm's this morning. It is a decently constructed little black box. Kim Dao (inventor) has two Patents, each about 2 years old, on them. I work with Patents regularly enough...it is an expensive process to get one. Typically, a good lawyer will charge $10,000+ for one. To make patents truly effective, you really do have to use a lawyer familiar with the process; writing them yourself and having an effective patent is near impossible. Not so with Trademarks, where a layman can (and has, in my case) effectively secure one for about $400 online without the assistance of pricey lawyers.
If Mr. Dao spent some $20,000 to patent these two, I'm willing to bet there is, at least, a shred of evidence to support his theories. But, we'll all evaluate them together.
They came in a nice, neat package with good instructions. Mr. Dao's instructions via email and the packaging have been concise...allright, on with the show!
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=1352)
Here's how the package, instructions and one of the A103's look splayed out this morning in my listening room.
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After hearing some changes as they broke in, I emailed Mr. Dao/DakiOm. He rather thinks it is my brain 'breaking in' (my wife might tell ya' there ain't that much to break in :) ) than the DakiOm's...and he may just be right.
But, to be sure...I'm letting the black boxes cook another couple days.
So far, they have made the unlistenable now listenable without, it seems, stealing any high frequency content. I'm talking normally shrieky Celine Dion/New Day Has Come and lo-res/oft mumbling Simon & Garfunkel/Greatest Hits.
I am without the MSB Gold Link III DAC or Power Base for a few weeks (out of action due to custom Revelation Audio Cable arriving and needs old cable to model it with), so this has been carried out on the normally lowly and awful CD playback of the Sony DVP-S7700.
I have my system in my office, so I listen to it daily and know it's changes hourly because I live with it so often.
Overall, very encouraging signs for a pretty cheap tweek. Full report soon...promise.
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They're in my system now. Kind of bizarre results so far, I'm not sure what to think. The bass is definitely more 'noticeable'; I'm paying attention to baselines I never really heard before. Rhythm instruments (tambourines, egg shakers, rattles, etc.) are much more prominent, but I don't know yet if it's in a good way. They certainly sound different, almost as if there is reverb applied to them. More later I guess, as I have a chance to listen.
Also, I've ordered the patents in pdf version if anyone's interested. They should be up on my site soon.
-Gary
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Also, I've ordered the patents in pdf version if anyone's interested. They should be up on my site soon.
Bizarre is not encouraging sign....hang in there. It took about 20 hours to settle them (or my mind in) to their sound.
Not sure what you mean about 'I've ordered the patents'. Explain? TTYL...
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Also, I've ordered the patents in pdf version if anyone's interested. They should be up on my site soon.
Bizarre is not encouraging sign....hang in there. It took about 20 hours to settle them (or my mind in) to their sound.
Not sure what you mean about 'I've ordered the patents'. Explain? TTYL...
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Patents are available at the US Patent Office site, but only in text form. If you want the real thing, with figures and drawings, you have to pay for it. I ordered the two patents for these devices, and got them in PDF form. If anyone wants to take a look at them I should have them on my site tomorrow.
Tonight I did a little bit of listening with my girlfriend... she said 'it seems more crisp, and the voices are clearer'. I'll have to do some more critical listening later (when the computer and refrigerator are off) but initial impressions after those first few minutes are good... really good, and totally not what I expected.
-Gary
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Gotcha' Gary now on the patent issue...I read them online already.
My wife left me for a couple hours today, so I ratcheted up a little crank to try the DakiOm's out. (Metallica, SilverChair, Shawn Mullins, and Blue Man Group CD's). Dang if they weren't more listenable than I ever remembered them being.
I am finding (while my 192K sampling MSB DAC and Power Base) are out of commission, I'm stil enjoying the tunes. The DakiOm's are not a substitute for the greater resolution of a good front end (or anything else imn the chain, speakers included), but they seem to be doing something very positive with the tunes. Easier to listen longer is what I'm finding...a great thing!
It'll be interesting to listen to the DakiOm's with all the good stuff back in here...it might be very revealing.
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The patents are up at
www.pandathumbaudio.com/download/Patent1.pdf
www.pandathumbaudio.com/download/Patent2.pdf
-Gary
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Just bumping this forward to view with the other post on the DaikOm's...
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Allright, so I plucked this from the archives and shoved it ahead now...has anybody else out there at AudioCircle tried these Dakioms? :scratch:
I haven't heard a truly bad CD/redbook player in 5 years...it's really improved over the years...even for $39. I find vinyl still having the edge in naturalness (using the right cartridge) and treble response...if you can dial (or tune out) the clocks and pops that frustrate, it sounds better to me.
Having used the (then $59) Dakiom for the past 4 years on 2-3 decks, I've been really happy with it. After 4 years I decided to upgrade to the top-of-the-line MR273 (rca 'feedback stabilizers') for $218.00 a pair. Only 18" long overall, they essentially replace your IC's to your preamp/integrated or receiver (so long as they are in close enough proximity). You can add a Radio Shack or other female/female couple and add another 1.5' to it if you wish, but better to have the components closer to one another and eliminate the extra joints.
http://dakiom.com/products_203.htm
Anyhow, using these damn weird things has taken my digital rig to analog-like smoothness. I (honestly) think for one of the very first times a few days ago I was actually bopping my head to the music playing on my CD. That has rarely or never happened in 20 years with CD...but happens often with vinyl.
My CDP still has obvious deficiency in treble smoothness and naturalness to my vinyl rig...but it's seriously easy to listen to now. One cannot identify if the bass/midrange/treble is actually better per se...it's just more enjoyable to listen to.
If you read Dakiom's ads on Audiogon you will likely pass on the silly boxes....but know that I am plenty skeptical of stuff now after 30+ years horsing around and being burned...and these Dakioms work as advertised.
The 5x pricier MR273's aren't worth that much more than the (now) $39 original R103's....but they are damn good. Neither is it the only path to upgrade your digital front end...but it's a significant one nontheless.
Most of you know me, but it bears repeating...I don't work for anyone in this industry, I take no bribes of payments...my opinions are just that - my own. The damn silly things work and I unhesitatingly endorse them for 80% of you (some gear they don't work on, like tube gear, as they use little or no feedback).
I'm almost at a point of buying another modestly priced universal player (DVD-A is already a good step on redbook....but still falls a little short of vinyl for me). I'm almost afraid of doing it for fear that my lovingly adorned turntable and all of my albums might fall into disuse if it improves DVD-A past that of lovely vinyl :wink:
Anyhow - end of flowing rant - find out for yourself. 30 day money back guarantee and the shipping is free to you - so all you will lose if they don't work for you is $4.80 (Priority Mail postage in the US) and a bit more 'face' in front of your significant other.
Then, think of it - you can come back here to this topic and tell me what a naive fool I am :beer: :rock:
Regards, John
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I did indeed try them. They really helped an Adcom amp that I had modded by Stan Warren, but actually degraded the sound of the Dussun V8i.
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Yeah, I found the amp units to not be beneficial, as well (solid state and tube I've had them on).
But, the rca versions, for players and preamps, worked well on all tried.
John
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I bought one of the then top of the line units for CD players and preamps -- don't recall which model now, but it was $99. I tried it on the Onix CD player I had at the time and although at first it sounded pretty good, it didn't take me long to pull it out and throw it in a box somewhere.
I recently came across that box a couple of weeks ago and found the thing and was just going to advertise it for sale here, but then decided to plug it into te red wine modified Toshiba 3980 player that I was using into my Carina and Horns.
Well, I'll be damned, it made a significant and wonderful upgrade. I've had it in the setup for almost a couple weeks now and it's still wonderful -- far less harsh and fatiguing, overall much more smooth, better bass, lots more tone to acoustic instruments and voices, etc.
Then I swapped in the RWA 30.2 for the Carina, and still wonderful.
I had planned on just selling this toshiba player once my good phillips top-loading transport arrives, but it will probably end up in a very small basic system in the bedroom -- already have the speakers (ones I built), and a Tweak City Audio $100 Gizmo amp, and presto -- a tiny, decent system that can easily sit on a bookshelf.
The dakiom made a huge, positive difference in this player, but as I said earlier, really ruined the sound of the Onix player I had (which was the more expensive Onix model at about $1000).
-- Jim
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From the patents, it looks like it just presents an increasing capacitance to an increasing signal. I wouldn't dare try any of these on tube amps outputs (or ever any amp output), or it may blow it up. Adding capacitance to the output of an amp will reduce phase margin and possibly put your amp into oscillation. I don't see how adding these 'feedback stabilizers' actually make things better, they would actually makes things worse. Ever hear about having really long or high capacitance cables on some amps can cause bad things to happen? Same thing here... I'm not trying to smear this product, but it just seems dangerous.
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Dakiom advises that the product will not work with most tube gear...and, indeed, I have tried and found that to be true.
There is even the occasional solid state product that it worsens....my old modded MSB Gold Link III DAC for one. But, my cheapie $49 COBY, with regulated 12volt power supply and a Dakiom on it, sounds better (less bass, but better) and more natural than the MSB ever did. As jimgoulding indicates, way less harsh.
I have the top-of-the-line one from CD to preamp now....the pain of the $200 it costs (ouch) mitigated by the fact that it replaces your IC's, too (which for me were Monster Cable, and about $59 at Best Buy). I have my original unit (the cheapie $49 one) hanging out of my preamp outputs (stabilizing feedback another way) and an amp Dakiom (A103 I think it's called) hanging off my speaker connector outputs.
I have to say I'm amazed how substantially they have improved my system. I've been burned enough by 'magic' tweeks to be very way...but I have to say this is the real deal (for 75% of the audiophool gear out there) :)
John
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I added an R263 for the 2 channel outs from my Pioneer 79avi last week. I use Steinberg Wavelab 6 to make DVD-A discs from .wav files. It (Dakiom) is a nice refinement. I was not expecting much from it but the results have been positive thus far. I won't go into audiophoolspeak. My system just sounds a little bit better. It's staying in.
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I have a few of these - purchased purely out of curiosity. I tried the RCA jack version on a pre-amp and a DAC - could not tell the difference. I totally forgot that I had these. After reading this thread, I think I will try on the outputs of the SB3.
I also have one that I intended to use on the speaker outputs of a Panasonic Receiver with a digital amps, but have just been too darn lazy to install (hard to get to the back of the receiver). Anyone know if this would be a good fit for a Dakiom?
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Unless the Panasonic has a feedback loop that needs stabilization...it's likely to be a bust on it.
John
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six month bump! i was reading about a new black box over on the sp forum, and thought of these guys. any updates?
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I know this is an old post.
I have many Dakiom devices. I put them to ss amps and tube amps. In all situation they all worked well making the system consistently highly listenable, which is the main value of this device.