AudioCircle
Industry Circles => Omega Speaker Systems => Topic started by: beowulf on 7 Nov 2013, 02:38 am
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Obviously Omega's uses excellent materials all around and I'm very happy with my speakers, and honestly I'm not even sure what type of wiring the Omega's have in them at all ... but I was just curious if anybody has ever ordered a pair (or re-wired their own) speakers with custom wiring, etc. and what their thoughts were?
Custom cable guys (such as our own AudioCircle member DaveC) are using cutting edge cabling such as OCC copper, silver and other exotic metallurgy and are getting excellent results with their external cable designs and I'm interested to know how Omega Speakers would sound taking it a step further going internal with some of the same cutting edge cabling like DaveC and others are using?
I know that you can custom order Zu Audio speakers where the internal speaker cable comes right out of your speakers into your amplifier and bypass the speaker binding posts altogether. It seems like this could be very cool if you are using ~ say some really high end wire such as OCC Copper or 4 9s silver internally from the speaker straight to the amp and eliminating one less connection altogether.
What do you guys think?
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Frankly, I hate internal wiring and connectors.
As Omega use a sole fullrange driver, the speaker cable must be solded in the drivers pegs/bayonet connectors.
This system offers fewer connections, solder joints or contact pressure.
The internal wiring being a different wire from the speaker cable is not a good thing.
Changing the wire, the electric signal change all its propagation behavior;
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I think Louis is using a nice cotton-insulated solid core copper (by Jupiter), for the internal wiring on his speakers.
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Frankly, I hate internal wiring and connectors.
As Omega use a sole fullrange driver, the speaker cable must be solded in the drivers pegs/bayonet connectors.
This system offers fewer connections, solder joints or contact pressure.
The internal wiring being a different wire from the speaker cable is not a good thing, changing the wire the electric signal change all its propagation behavior;
So would I be right in thinking that speakers would sound better with the same wire from the driver all the way to the amp (without any connectors at all)? If so, I wonder why more speaker manufacturers don't have this as an option? Excuse the dumb question ... but is there any reason (safety, protection, etc.) why you would need to add binding posts to a speaker at all ~ other than for people to choose their own external cabling?
The more I think about it, the more it seems like it could be a better design as long as the cabling was high quality. Without the extra stops (a la terminations) during the current flow and using all the same cable it just seems like a better path.
I have always wondered what could be better than the actual internal wiring of the speaker itself? We use all kinds of expensive and exotic cables that go from the amp to the speaker's binding posts, but internally the speaker's driver is most likely wired differently ... how much of an improvement could really be taking place if the speaker wire is not the same quality and/or mettallurgy of the internal speaker wiring? Wouldn't the "true" sound of the speaker be dependent on the cabling that is actually installed on the driver itself and not on the external cables because once it hits the binding post the signal is handed over to the internal wiring? (and I'm not speaking towards Omega directly, but torwards any manufacturer in general)?
I recently read a paper from Tempo Electric called Wire and Cable Facts (http://www.tempoelectric.com/Wire_and_Cable_Facts.pdf) and it said that bare wires are the best termination, followed by spades and lastly bananas ... so imagine if we had wire from the driver into the amp without any terminations at all ... the paper then goes on to say that the worst terminations were the ones with different materials (i.e. copper spades to silver cables, etc.), so in that case it should (?) apply towards the speakers as well no? (i.e. silver external cables to copper internal cables, etc.)
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I think internal wiring and connectors as cheap spice.
They are there just for convenience.
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Yes, the connectors are for convenience. Good ones aren't a big sonic penalty but are expensive. Keep in mind everything you do alters the sound so you need to decide for yourself how far you want to take it.
People need different length cables so having a speaker with a captive speaker cable wouldn't work for everyone and the best cable to use might also depend on what amp you're using as well as the personal preferences of the listener.
Good wire and connectors are important, I believe Louis uses Jupiter Condenser's wire which is very good stuff. IMO the worthwhile upgrade is the binding posts... I like Furutech connectors in general but have not had a chance to use their binding posts. There's also the Pomona 3770 gold plated copper binding post for $9/ea, I used them in my system... they look like super cheap stuff you'd get at Radio Shack though.
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Yes, I finally tore out the binding posts to my single driver speakers a couple of years back and ran my cable of choice directly from mono blocks to the drivers. Can't really say it sounds better, but its one of those compulsive audio purist things that helps me sleep at night knowing I've eliminated two connectors, cheap internal wiring, and the binding post from the signal path to each channel.
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Well they will sound different. maybe better maybe not. One would imagine without any connectors a pure transfer of signal. But, but the designer voiced the speaker with the binding posts and internal wire. So the difference.
For me no connectors at speaker terminals bare wire for mains a jumper. An improvement in imaging and soundstaging. Tonality the same except for top end which is more open and present.
Only way to tell is to try, have fun.
charles
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Provided the binding posts are made mostly out of a high quality, high conductivity metal as opposed to the mostly brass ones that sell for a few bucks, the damage they cause should be fairly minimal, and for most people being able to change cables or use whatever cable length they may require is worth the small sacrifice in sound. Using the same speaker cable both externally and internally I think will provide better results than eliminating binding posts, or at the very least using same metal cables, ie if Omegas are wired internally with solid core copper, use solid core copper speaker cables. Whatever you do, don't use silver plated copper anything.
In spite of what Nordost and other companies that sell plated cables may tell you, plating one metal over another for cables that operate in the audio band (rather than S/Pdif cables, USB cables, and other UHF types) is pretty much the worst thing you can do, sound wise.
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Provided the binding posts are made mostly out of a high quality, high conductivity metal as opposed to the mostly brass ones that sell for a few bucks, the damage they cause should be fairly minimal, and for most people being able to change cables or use whatever cable length they may require is worth the small sacrifice in sound. Using the same speaker cable both externally and internally I think will provide better results than eliminating binding posts, or at the very least using same metal cables, ie if Omegas are wired internally with solid core copper, use solid core copper speaker cables. Whatever you do, don't use silver plated copper anything.
In spite of what Nordost and other companies that sell plated cables may tell you, plating one metal over another for cables that operate in the audio band (rather than S/Pdif cables, USB cables, and other UHF types) is pretty much the worst thing you can do, sound wise.
I would have to agree with your assessment about the different materials as it falls along the same lines as the report of the link I posted above. Silver speaker cables to brass/gold plated binding posts and then copper internal wire seems like it would not be optimum. Anyways, how much of the silver would you really hear once the signal is passed into the copper cable? I do believe that the conductivity of silver may transfer the signal better to that point, however isn't that like driving a Ferrari up to the front gate and parking outside, then driving a ford all the way home?
Well they will sound different. maybe better maybe not. One would imagine without any connectors a pure transfer of signal. But, but the designer voiced the speaker with the binding posts and internal wire. So the difference.
For me no connectors at speaker terminals bare wire for mains a jumper. An improvement in imaging and soundstaging. Tonality the same except for top end which is more open and present.
Only way to tell is to try, have fun.
charles
Charles you bring up a good point too, since they were voiced with binding posts if someone were to put all silver cabling internally and externally without using binding posts they would most likely sound quite different.
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Frankly, I hate internal wiring and connectors.
As Omega use a sole fullrange driver, the speaker cable must be solded in the drivers pegs/bayonet connectors.
This system offers fewer connections, solder joints or contact pressure.
The internal wiring being a different wire from the speaker cable is not a good thing.
Changing the wire, the electric signal change all its propagation behavior;
Would you say that the gauge of wire you would use has to be changed at all from the original specs? For instance Jupiter Condenser's highest gauge copper is about 18 ... would there be any harm in using say 10-12 gauge instead? (ie directly to the driver out to the amp)
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With single driver designs (and realizing that the cabinet can only really affect frequencies below roughly 300 Hz), the voicing should be purely based on the raw driver that (I got to believe for convenience sake) was done with a straight run of cable from the amp. But what cable? And more importantly what amp? And most importantly does the voicing preferences of the driver designer match my preferences?
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I'd just add that there's no issue with using different speaker cables than what the speaker was wired with internally, it almost NEVER matches IRL anyway.
Everything makes a difference but at some point it doesn't make sense to worry about it, that point is up to the individual...
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I would never go to the extent of specifying a run from driver to the amp. If you damage your cable or termination, then you're stuck.
On the HB range I recall Louis used to apply a dual run on the +ve, single on the -ve (correct me if I'm wrong). I agree with the above advice though on keeping metal changes to a minimum, so would be using gold-plated termination and multi-stranded copper wire only.
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Would you say that the gauge of wire you would use has to be changed at all from the original specs? For instance Jupiter Condenser's highest gauge copper is about 18 ... would there be any harm in using say 10-12 gauge instead? (ie directly to the driver out to the amp)
Would you say that the gauge of wire you would use has to be changed at all from the original specs?
Not sure if I understant it right. Anyway I use inexpensive QED Silver Anniversary, a 2,5mm Silver/copper with a 5inches FR, but I would double/triple it as I have a spare run, but my pro-audio FR are not great.
Some speakers cables are small awg as Cristal Cable others are big as pipe.
For instance Jupiter Condenser's highest gauge copper is about 18 ... would there be any harm in using say 10-12 gauge instead? (ie directly to the driver out to the amp)
Hi-fi FR drivers are not intend to be used with capacitors, condensers, inductors etc, unless in pro-audio drivers.
These Omega FRs are the most light weight cones I have see, even more light than the Alpair12P, so a capacitor or condenser will do a huge effect on the sound.
One can change some sound attributes as treble by changing the speaker cable.
Some small tube amps need to fell a higher impedance than 8 or 16 ohms, so it is used a sole solid core thin gauge wire as friendly passive way to get it.
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Some small tube amps need to fell a higher impedance than 8 or 16 ohms, so it is used a sole solid core thin gauge wire as friendly passive way to get it.
I've heard of people doing that, but it's a really bad idea and will have a very negative effect on dynamics. You want as much impedance as possible to come from the driver's motor where it actually does something.
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Hi-fi FR drivers are not intend to be used with capacitors, condensers, inductors etc, unless in pro-audio drivers.
Jupiter Condenser is the name of the company, he is talking about their wire.
http://jupitercondenser.com/Cable/cotton-insulated-cable.html
Lin
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Jupiter Condenser is the name of the company, he is talking about their wire.
http://jupitercondenser.com/Cable/cotton-insulated-cable.html
Lin
Thanks for clarify :thumb: you most kind.
These are very nice wire, but the thicker seems to be 19awg, a bit thin to speaker cable or even small tubes apply.
IMO: I afraid it may becomes too hot in afew hours of continuous use, also it is not solid but stranded from a thinner wire.
I would not use this wires in my loudspeaders or tube amp as they are too thin, otherwise seems good.
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FRM, in your last post you talked about using super thin wire to increase resistance in tube amps, calling that "friendly", but now 19g isn't big enough for speaker cable?
FWIW, I use and sell 20g speaker cable and I believe Louis is using 20g internally. 20 gauge is a great size wire for small amps and efficient speakers.
Also, I remember Dave at Planet10 saying he used a single twisted pair of cat5, which is 24g... less than half the size of 20g. Personally, I do think that's getting a bit on the small side, but it's still not going to heat up, lol...
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FRM, in your last post you talked about using super thin wire to increase resistance in tube amps, calling that "friendly", but now 19g isn't big enough for speaker cable?
FWIW, I use and sell 20g speaker cable and I believe Louis is using 20g internally. 20 gauge is a great size wire for small amps and efficient speakers.
Also, I remember Dave at Planet10 saying he used a single twisted pair of cat5, which is 24g... less than half the size of 20g. Personally, I do think that's getting a bit on the small side, but it's still not going to heat up, lol...
Seems these gauges you mention will offer a more friendly impedance to the amp, but I could not use it myself.
I understand the option of these manufacturers as a thinner wire have less resistence and less cost.
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Seems these gauges you mention will offer a more friendly impedance to the amp, but I could not use it myself.
I understand the option of these manufacturers as a thinner wire have less resistence and less cost.
Hi FULLRANGEMAN and all Audio Circle members.
I don't know about you, but me, with my technical knowledge:
The thinner the wire , the more impedance Ohms you have.
The larger in diameter the wire is, the less resistance you have.
Am I right ?
Guy 13
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Hi FULLRANGEMAN and all Audio Circle members.
I don't know about you, but me, with my technical knowledge:
The thinner the wire , the more impedance Ohms you have.
The larger in diameter the wire is, the less resistance you have.
Am I right ?
Guy 13
I feel the factor is the quality of the copper.
Seems to me a raw copper thick wire will offer more resistance to the electrical signal than a thin excellent copper.
But I may be wrong.
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I think internal wiring and connectors as cheap spice.
They are there just for convenience.
Yes and no. meaning yes for convenience and cable sales. No connectors for me bare wire. One can with a single driver speaker very easily connect speaker cable from driver to amp.
If Omega uses Jupiter wire then by all means try Jupiter wire to amp. Anytime one can eliminate a connector do so. Less resistance, inductance and impedance. Less solder connections as well.
BTW if Louis likes Jupiter wire for his design it must be right for the design, that's Louis for ya.
charles
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Guy13, yes. :thumb:
FRM, The quality of the copper effects the sound quality but not the overall resistance of the wire.
If you want, it is not difficult to calculate the voltage and amperage going to your speakers... with a small tube amp and efficient speakers it's not much.
V = IR
> P = V^2/R, V=sqrt(PR)
P = IV
So... say I'm running all out 5 watts into my 8 ohm Super 3s... voltage is ~6.3 volts. I = V/R so amperage = .7875 amps.
Voltage drop on a 10' run of speaker cable will be about 2.5% for 20 gauge wire... it'll be fine :)
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Guy13, yes. :thumb:
FRM, The quality of the copper effects the sound quality but not the overall resistance of the wire.
If you want, it is not difficult to calculate the voltage and amperage going to your speakers... with a small tube amp and efficient speakers it's not much.
V = IR
> P = V^2/R, V=sqrt(PR)
P = IV
So... say I'm running all out 5 watts into my 8 ohm Super 3s... voltage is ~6.3 volts. I = V/R so amperage = .7875 amps.
Voltage drop on a 10' run of speaker cable will be about 2.5% for 20 gauge wire... it'll be fine :)
Wow thanks for this breakdown Dave ... I failed math, but believe it or not I somehow think I got this :icon_lol:
A 10 gauge silver wire and silver solder at the driver sounds pretty interesting, but this driver was not voiced with silver in mind so I'm not sure how it would sound, but I'm still curious from driver to amp without any terminations and/or binding posts.
I can say that in my experience I tried both silver and copper cables with the Omega 7F drivers and I thought that the silver gave me better extended highs (it just seemed like the upper end came through a lot more) than the copper did and for a single range driver - to me this seems like a good thing. I was able to pick up a cable design very similar to the Decware Zen Styx for almost the cost to make them and I ultimately chose silver as my preference ... but I'm not sure if this was all just psychological and goes against my initial statement about how can it sound different if the outside cable is not the same as the inside cable. My only thoughts are that perhaps silver (with better conductivity) transferred the signal to a higher degree (up to a certain point) than the copper did? Does that make any sense or am I just whacked? :duh:
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Hi all Audio Circle members.
Try this link, it will make your life easier when trying to calculate wire power loss.
http://www.bcae1.com/images/swfs/speakerwireselectorassistant.swf
Quality of wire material (Silver vs copper) and wire loss are very different.
Guy 13
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It is know that raw silver wire had worse soundquality than copper.
Seems most silver cables are refined silver and sound good.
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IMO... silver is pretty bad unless it's 4N or better purity. Duelund and Neotech are both 5N+ purity and they sound much better than normal 4N silver wire. Silver is a better conductor but only by a few percent, it's not a huge difference.
If you have a run of speaker cable and different wiring inside the speaker cabinet, the resultant sound will be a mix of the two roughly in proportion to how much is used.
beo, you might want to try UPOCC copper as well, it's much better than normal copper and much cheaper than silver. I think it's the best value for the money in speaker cables.
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Hi all Audio Circle members.
Try this link, it will make your life easier when trying to calculate wire power loss.
http://www.bcae1.com/images/swfs/speakerwireselectorassistant.swf
Quality of wire material (Silver vs copper) and wire loss are very different.
Guy 13
Thanks for that link Guy 13 ... that comes in handy!
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IMO... silver is pretty bad unless it's 4N or better purity. Duelund and Neotech are both 5N+ purity and they sound much better than normal 4N silver wire. Silver is a better conductor but only by a few percent, it's not a huge difference.
If you have a run of speaker cable and different wiring inside the speaker cabinet, the resultant sound will be a mix of the two roughly in proportion to how much is used.
beo, you might want to try UPOCC copper as well, it's much better than normal copper and much cheaper than silver. I think it's the best value for the money in speaker cables.
Yes, I'm saving up for the OCC style cables - I believe it has merit to it's design and would like to try your cables when I am ready to purchase. I read an interesting paper from Tempo Electric (http://www.tempoelectric.com/cables.htm) on solid core silver cabling and found it interesting as well - however prices can get stupid for 10 and 12 gauge solid core cables (especially because I need 10 feet)!
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Yes, I'm saving up for the OCC style cables - I believe it has merit to it's design and would like to try your cables when I am ready to purchase. I read an interesting paper from Tempo Electric (http://www.tempoelectric.com/cables.htm) on solid core silver cabling and found it interesting as well - however prices can get stupid for 10 and 12 gauge solid core cables (especially because I need 10 feet)!
Hi beowulf and all Audio Circle members.
Thanks for the link to tempoelectric.
However, I must say that their prices are crazy,
the pure silver 12ga. 10 feet speaker wire is for the rich,
not for me the poor audiophile.
Therefore, I will stick with my multistrand copper 12ga. speaker wire.
Guy 13
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beo, UPOCC copper is cleaner, faster, more detailed and more dynamic than regular copper but doesn't have the "weight and body" of regular copper which may or may not be a good thing depending on your personal preferences. The warmth of regular copper is distortion and masks fine detail and makes the cable sound "slower" and less dynamic as well, but on the plus side it adds a fullness to the tonality of the system that some folks like. The cables I sell are even moreso like UPOCC copper as they are a litz design, the 14g wire has ~1060 individually insulated runs of 44g UPOCC copper wire braided around a flat film core which makes them even faster and more detailed than using regular UPOCC copper wire. If you ever want to give my cables a try I have a 10' pair of 14 or 20g cables I can loan out. The 14g cable is slightly better than the 20 even with small amps but the difference is very minor until you get into higher powered systems.
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Hi DaveC113 ad all Audio Circle members.
How much for your 10 feet loaners and what termination do they have?
Guy 13
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Hi Guy, If you're an established AC member I would send out a loaner for free, but you'd have to pay shipping both ways. They would have a simple wire soldered to the end of the cable for a termination, so pretty much "bare wire".
It's pretty likely I will start a speaker cable tour as the interconnect tour winds down, for that I'd probably send out a 12' pair with spades on one end and bananas on the other...
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Hi All,
Great thread and I will say That I am a huge fan of Dave's cables and I have both speaker and IC in my system and use them everyday.
I would easily be very happy to add them inside of any speaker I make.
Thanks again,
Louis