AudioCircle
Industry Circles => Empirical Audio => Topic started by: audioengr on 7 Apr 2012, 06:02 pm
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I used version 1.2 at the RMAF 2009 show with good results. The versions 2.0-2.2 that were released after that were not satisfying IMO.
However, just before the last 2011 RMAF, Jon issued a version 2.3.2 4319. Now this was really outstanding. He told me that he discovered a problem that had been alluding him and it was finally a release that he liked the sound of. I believe he introduced some kind of SQ issue into the latest release, so I am waiting for a fix to that.
For those that have other versions of full Amarra installed, here is a link that you can download version 2.3.2 4319:
www.sonicstudio.com/releases/Amarra_233_Release_4319.zip (http://www.sonicstudio.com/releases/Amarra_233_Release_4319.zip)
I highly recommend that you install this on a new disk partition with a fresh Mac OS install. I would avoid using Amarra playlist. Just use it with iTunes. Best thing to do is use Cache mode. I also use some EQ for my speakers. Make sure that you close-out of Amarra each day in order to avoid memory leaks.
Steve N.
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Steve
Do you suggest never using Amarra's Playlist no matter the release?
Their lit says playlist is suppose to sound the best
I'm a bit lazy guess I could experiment myself
Thanks
Bruce
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Steve
Do you suggest never using Amarra's Playlist no matter the release?
Their lit says playlist is suppose to sound the best
I'm a bit lazy guess I could experiment myself
Thanks
Bruce
I could not hear any difference, and playlist is less stable than iTunes.
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I think I hear a difference using playlist albeit subtle
Thanks for the tip on closing out of Amarra daily
Bruce
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I could not hear any difference, and playlist is less stable than iTunes.
Steve, respectfully, may I offer another perspective: As a beta tester for Amarra, while the present state of Amarra's beta is a work in progress (I'll be artfully vague as it is not my place to comment as a beta tester. But as an Amarra Full user, build 4344 has been published for several months now and while not without flaws (often system dependent), consistent with Friday's finding, the SQ Playlist mode is better sounding than Amarra mode and Playlist mode is stable. There have been problems with the "Load" function. But the "Add" function in Playlist mode works consistently. Cache mode as you indicate is preferable along with Playlist mode. I won't pretend to know more about Amarra than Jon. For me, 4317 is a long time ago, and the iterations that have succeeded are much better sounding in my opinion and many others as well. As you rightfully state based on your own interactions with Jon, some SQ issues are present. But 4344 is clearly ahead of 4317. Nothing I have just stated is intended to correct your perception but merely to add mine to the mix. Those who need to find out from their own experience are better off deciding for themselves and not from me. :)
Best,
Richard
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Steve, respectfully, may I offer another perspective: As a beta tester for Amarra, while the present state of Amarra's beta is a work in progress (I'll be artfully vague as it is not my place to comment as a beta tester. But as an Amarra Full user, build 4344 has been published for several months now and while not without flaws (often system dependent), consistent with Friday's finding, the SQ Playlist mode is better sounding than Amarra mode and Playlist mode is stable. There have been problems with the "Load" function. But the "Add" function in Playlist mode works consistently. Cache mode as you indicate is preferable along with Playlist mode. I won't pretend to know more about Amarra than Jon. For me, 4317 is a long time ago, and the iterations that have succeeded are much better sounding in my opinion and many others as well. As you rightfully state based on your own interactions with Jon, some SQ issues are present. But 4344 is clearly ahead of 4317. Nothing I have just stated is intended to correct your perception but merely to add mine to the mix. Those who need to find out from their own experience are better off deciding for themselves and not from me. :)
Best,
Richard
Rich - I'll give 4344 a try. This is not the current release is it?
Steve N.
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I have 2.3.3 (4344), which I'm assuming is the current release.
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Rich - I'll give 4344 a try. This is not the current release is it?
Steve N.
Sorry for the delay in replying. At present 4344 is the published build. As you know, Sonic Studio is never idle and they are working on a beta which will succeed 4344. It's best for me to keep my comments circumspect which is appropriate for a beta tester like myself. Hope all is well.
Best,
Richard
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Link seems broken?
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Okay, I installed version 4344 and compared it to 4317 and 4319.
Sorry, not even close. 4344 saps the life out of the music IMO. 4319 is vivid and dynamic, with much better clarity.
I have emailed Jon to see where the archival versions are now. He evidently moved them.
Steve N.
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4319 is on the Amarra server again, so you can download it:
www.sonicstudio.com/releases/Amarra_233_Release_4319.zip (http://www.sonicstudio.com/releases/Amarra_233_Release_4319.zip)
Make sure you run the uninstall script first if you have another version loaded.
Enjoy :D
Steve N.
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Steve,
Do you have any theories on why the different Amarra versions have varying SQ? If the USB interface is Async, how can the playback software be introducing artifacts? Floating-point error is the only thing I can think of, and that (to me) seems unlikely to have changed between different builds of the software. Is there a way to test and record the digital USB output that reaches the DAC, or maybe at least record it on the computer (before it's sent to the DAC). I think VMWare or Parallels had some tool to do this (maybe open sourced now), as I remember reading that they needed it when developing their virtualized USB interface.
-Clayton
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Steve,
Do you have any theories on why the different Amarra versions have varying SQ? If the USB interface is Async, how can the playback software be introducing artifacts? Floating-point error is the only thing I can think of, and that (to me) seems unlikely to have changed between different builds of the software. Is there a way to test and record the digital USB output that reaches the DAC, or maybe at least record it on the computer (before it's sent to the DAC). I think VMWare or Parallels had some tool to do this (maybe open sourced now), as I remember reading that they needed it when developing their virtualized USB interface.
-Clayton
It's not only Amarra. Pure Music and iTunes also exhibit differences from one release to the next. iTunes has improved dramatically from 2 years ago.
Jon, the Amarra designer admitted that there was some kind of rounding error or the like that alluded him until version 4317. I can only speculate. He told me at the RMAF in 2011 that he discovered an error in the code and he was finally happy with the sound quality of 4317 and 4319.
I wish there were some solid metrics that could be used for these comparisons to tell whether they have backtracked or not with a new release. IME, most of these S/W designers rely on people with really resolving systems to report these SQ anomalies. Even those feedbacks can be hit-and-miss however.
Maybe you can recommend a measurement? I dont know what to measure. These differences are mostly in imaging and dynamics. Very elusive.
Steve N.
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Steve,
I'm definitely not an expert on audio drivers, or the USB protocol. But from what I briefly read on the protocol, it uses a technique similar to TCP; data is separated into chunks; each chunk carries its portion in the payload, and there are some header packets attached to each payload that help make sure the data isn't mangled on transport.
So the 'what' to measure would probably be the payload data. Attach 'some' software (if it were a network interface, that sw would be Wireshark or similar) to the USB interface on the computer to watch the packets. Record each payload, aggregate, and store in a file. Then offline, take that file and reproduce the original PCM file. Then do a bit comparison to the original PCM. Do that with the different versions of the build, etc.
Thing is, that sort of thing should be done by Amarra, and automated, and incorporated into the build script; so that the build fails if anything funny is going on with the data during playback, and then that version of the sw isn't yet released.
Also, since you mentioned that the effects are a bit elusive, I'd actually put my money on some sort of timing (not data) interaction between Amarra and the async USB driver. As far as what that interaction is, I'm not sure; as I don't have the low-level driver knowledge required to figure that one out. But I hope the folks at Amarra have that expertise.
It is reassuring to hear that you and the lead Amarra developer are in direct contact.
EDIT: It turns out that Wireshark can also monitor USB interfaces: http://wiki.wireshark.org/CaptureSetup/USB (http://wiki.wireshark.org/CaptureSetup/USB). Might not be OS X compatible though. But it's a start; shows that there's probably some decent software out there to monitor this interface on OS X.
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Thing is, that sort of thing should be done by Amarra, and automated, and incorporated into the build script; so that the build fails if anything funny is going on with the data during playback, and then that version of the sw isn't yet released.
I agree, but we are in a small niche market. Only big companies like Microsoft and Apple can afford to do this kind of testing IME, and even Apple does a poor job of this for iTunes IMO, probably because the data is not critical data like disk data etc..
Steve N.
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Okay, I installed version 4344 and compared it to 4317 and 4319.
Sorry, not even close. 4344 saps the life out of the music IMO. 4319 is vivid and dynamic, with much better clarity.
I have emailed Jon to see where the archival versions are now. He evidently moved them.
Steve N.
Given your preference for 4319 which I would never argue with (my policy is not to argue with perception). And, as you know, I have been a beta tester (volunteer) for Sonic Studio. The new build 4374 is exceptional. Give it a test and determine for yourself.
Best,
Richard
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Just installed the new release will listen later today and hear what improvements if any I notice
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Well Splashtop doesn't work with this new version, when i launch it from my iPad Amara stops playing :(
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Also all kinds of dropout that I dint have before mmmm
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Also all kinds of dropout that I dint have before mmmm
Short version: You're experiencing the same as I which was not present in the beta version of the same build. I experienced this last Friday night with guests and I thought something was amiss with my settings as the build had never, never done that. Now with your confirmation of the same experience as I, I apologize, not for my recommendation as the SQ is the best yet despite this new bug, but for not appreciating what I had experienced. I am taken aback by this as it is so obvious!
Please excuse me.
Best,
Richard
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Well Splashtop doesn't work with this new version, when i launch it from my iPad Amara stops playing :(
I found Splashtop to be quite flakey. VNC is much better.
Steve N.
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After further attention, I was completely wrong about Amarra build 474 being the source of dropouts. Having been playing albums for at least 20 hours since I posted my earlier concern without one dropout. Rather the SQ is gorgeous. Been playing AIFF tracks from 44.1/16 to 192/24, XLD conversion redbook CDs, and downloads from various vendors including HDtracks. Not one dropout. Whatever was going on at least in my situation was not an Amarra problem. There has since been several updates including OSX, Safari, and consequential problems with other computer services that have nothing to do with Amarra's performance.
Clearly this is the best build yet. Amarra has also reduced the price points so there are several editions offering features that differ consistent with the price. Highly recommended. Probably will hear a response from Steve who favors an early build. Perhaps, when you listen to the new build, you may reach a different opinion.
Enjoy the music,
Richard
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I dont have such a good opinion of the first release of 2.4. I just rebuild my Mini to have 8GB DRAM and 120GB SSD.
It sounds great with 2.33 rev 4319.
With 2.4, the bass is wooley and unfocused IMO. Not nearly as clear and focused as 4319. I'm sticking with 4319 for now.
Steve N.
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4344 is my favorite. 2.4 is great, but it sounds more like Pure Music. Too much emphasize on the upper end. Life music doesn't sound like this. It's good to analyze sounds. 2.4 is the first version of amarra that I can get tired of listening to (not nearly as bad as PureMusic though). Everything is IMHO.
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Do you have a download link for build 4319? I only have build 4344 and would like to try that one to compare to 2.4.
I dont have such a good opinion of the first release of 2.4. I just rebuild my Mini to have 8GB DRAM and 120GB SSD.
It sounds great with 2.33 rev 4319.
With 2.4, the bass is wooley and unfocused IMO. Not nearly as clear and focused as 4319. I'm sticking with 4319 for now.
Steve N.
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Do you have a download link for build 4319? I only have build 4344 and would like to try that one to compare to 2.4.
See first post.
Steve N.
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Make sure 4319 is 4319 and not 4318. See about amarra.
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Thanks! :duh:
See first post.
Steve N.
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As linked in post 1, for me it downloads 4318, not 4319. I compared 4318 to the current version and in my system the current version sounds better.
Make sure 4319 is 4319 and not 4318. See about amarra.
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As linked in post 1, for me it downloads 4318, not 4319. I compared 4318 to the current version and in my system the current version sounds better.
Jon must have put the wrong version on his webpage.....
I am trying 4344 tomorrow.
Steve N.
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As linked in post 1, for me it downloads 4318, not 4319. I compared 4318 to the current version and in my system the current version sounds better.
Something is wrong then. 4318/19 is definitely better than either 4344 or 4347.
4319 has a clarity and liveness that these others lack. No deficiencies that I can identify, other than bugs with 192 and 176.
4344 spotlights the vocalist, but warms-up and compresses all of the highs, so that piano and guitars dont sound live. Boring, says my wife. With 4347 the bass is out of focus.
Steve N.
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I promised Steve I would install 4319 and compare with 4344, which I like but I am not in love with. In the interim, I have access to beta's as I am on the beta team. While close to publishing a new update to the Amarra 2.4 recent update, the Releases I am listening to are so favorable, that I am regretfully breaking my word to Steve and will not install 4319. I am not doubting Steve. No one wins RMAF twice in a row (OK tied for 1st place the second time still a win) for best sound by chance. I trust Steve's ears. I also can not comment with any authority about something I have not heard. What I have heard is a new and different better sound post 2.4. And some additional changes/fixes are so attractive that one may wish to get on board when the train pulls out of the station (to mix metaphors). BTW, the poster who compares 2.4 to PM which I also own, while I never argue with perception, I will venture my own and say PM sounds rounded off starting from the mids to the treble. The next iteration will address Steve's perception of wooley bass, I am only guessing at what Steve might conclude. I am extremely satisfied. So for me, being me works. Started saving again for the OffRamp 5 after paying a large deductible when a stretch limousine the size and length of a tractor trailer hit my new car. Looking forward to the addition. Have to be patient.
Forgive me Steve. Maybe you'll even change your opinion soon.
Best,
Richard
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Interesting. I'll do another comparison. And look forward to the upcoming 2.4 update.
Something is wrong then. 4318/19 is definitely better than either 4344 or 4347.
4319 has a clarity and liveness that these others lack. No deficiencies that I can identify, other than bugs with 192 and 176.
4344 spotlights the vocalist, but warms-up and compresses all of the highs, so that piano and guitars dont sound live. Boring, says my wife. With 4347 the bass is out of focus.
Steve N.
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Interesting. I'll do another comparison. And look forward to the upcoming 2.4 update.
Please understand that I hold Steve in the highest regard and am not challenging his discernment. I, however, have my own frame of reference, I have my own system, I have access to builds/releases as a beta tester for Sonic that persuade me otherwise. Is Steve wrong? Am I right? Only the beholder can decide that. I am a fan of Steve's expertise and intend to be one of his customers, if he puts up with me, as soon as I can afford a OffRamp 5.
Stay vigilant, you won't be disappointed. Or...
Best,
Richard
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I wonder how much difference different models/macs with different power supplies/memory/processing power/hard drives makes. And how this affects interaction with the software/Amarra.
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I wonder how much difference different models/macs with different power supplies/memory/processing power/hard drives makes. And how this affects interaction with the software/Amarra.
That is actually a very astute observation. Jon of Sonic mentions that a more more powerful and faster processor can influence Amarra's performance. As well as what one has running in the background. And how certain programs steal focus and priority from Amarra, for example Safari is one of the culprits.
Best,
Richard
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I wonder how much difference different models/macs with different power supplies/memory/processing power/hard drives makes. And how this affects interaction with the software/Amarra.
Here is what I found:
2009 Mini sounds best. 120GB SSD m akes about 10% improvement. 8GB DRAM makes no difference.
Making
the SW changes in the other thread (UltraFi) makes aboiut 20% improvement.
Amarra 4319 makes about 30% imrovement.
A better power suppl for the Mini makes an improvement, but I have not tried it on mine yet.
Using one of the two inner USB ports makes about 15% improvement.
Steve N.
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How do the current mac mini's sound?
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How do the current mac mini's sound?
There are changes coming that are already quite specific and to my ears the best I have ever heard Amarra Symphony which is the edition I use. I yield to Steve's expertise and I don't pretend to have any. Merely I listen and make adjustments to find the best SQ and how that makes me feel. Regarding memory, the more the merrier notwithstanding that Steve says it's not that important. A certain amount helps the cache load tracks into memory. The more memory the better. My Mac Mini is the Thunderbolt version of the 2011 Mac Mini with i7 and 256 SSD (SSD is preferred over HDDs). That also adds to the quality. The faster the Mac Mini the better. I have no experience with the Mach Mini 2 or any of their editions. Steve uses them or used that model at RMAF. Actually, I should not comment, as I was even there, and Steve is the best source. So I 'll speak from my experience. I originally purchased a 2011 Mac Mini (but in the 2010 style) that was all they offered other than the Mac Mini server. I changed the HDD to an SSD. That made a difference. I ordered minimum memory and purchased max memory from OWC (very inexpensive and Apple charges an obscene price for memory sold very inexpensively by comparison). That made a difference. Cabling makes a difference. Steve's OffRamp5 made a big difference when briefly added to my Thunderbolt Mac Mini. The Promise Pegasus 12TB Raid 5 made a difference.
The latest published Amarra is very fine. What is coming down the pike is exquisite and there are significant improvements. Best to leave it at that. I keep my Mac Mini mini-mum when running Amarra and the sound is delicious.
Best,
Richard
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Comparing different players in different systems is similar to comparing different cables in different systems. Lion vs Snow Leopard may yield different results as well. Gordon Rankin prefers Lion to Snow Leopard despite integer mode available only in Leopard (this isn't important for Offramp users, if I am not mistaken they don't support integer mode). Amarra is typically my choice for Mac (PM has deeper soundstage and perhaps more accurate low end), Jplay is fantastic player for Win. Sometimes I prefer one over the other. My preferences change depending on the mood I am in/music I listen to.
How does one become a beta tester for Amarra?
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Comparing different players in different systems is similar to comparing different cables in different systems. Lion vs Snow Leopard may yield different results as well. Gordon Rankin prefers Lion to Snow Leopard despite integer mode available only in Leopard (this isn't important for Offramp users, if I am not mistaken they don't support integer mode). Amarra is typically my choice for Mac (PM has deeper soundstage and perhaps more accurate low end), Jplay is fantastic player for Win. Sometimes I prefer one over the other. My preferences change depending on the mood I am in/music I listen to.
How does one become a beta tester for Amarra?
I never argue with perception. I own all the software players for Mac. Honestly, I do not know what you mean or what you hear or what you experience when you state PM has a deeper soundstage and perhaps more accurate low end. Mind you, I am not arguing. Merely not able to confirm what you state based on my listening experience with PM (latest build) versus Amarra Symphony latest build. And software alone does not determine soundstage and low end independent of the system you are listening through. I know you post extensively at the Circle. I am not even suggesting you are wrong. With my system, PM is excellent. So is the latest BitPerfect, 1.0.3. (BitPerfection, the new build won't work with my dac). Audirvana Plus is also excellent as is Decibel and Fidelia. AND (avoiding BUT) Amarra Symphony is the better of them all (for me) with my system and in my discernment, soundstage and low end. With SQ, Amarra is my absolute favorite as well. As for becoming a beta tester, suggest you contact Sonic Studio. I know several manufacturers employ PM when they exhibit. Steve employs Amarra. So there's room for different perceptions as to which is preferred because of what is discerned as the best player. I can appreciate how you might reach your conclusions without making you wrong or me right. The important thing is to enjoy the music using either.
Best,
Richard
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I am with you Richard. Perception is very subjective.
On the subject of the source. I noticed many of you use mac mini. Why upgrade PSUs in minis if you can use Mac Book Pro with built in battery? I use mine and turn off display brightness, keyboard led's off and control it from touchpad (splashtop remote, switch track and disconnect not to waste CPU cycles). I've measured noise on 5V line of USB with supplied adapter as well as Chineese knockoffs from ebay. The old Dell laptop laying around at work had lower noise (better regulation). It's ugly when charging circuitry is on and pretty clean (comparing to battery powered) when battery is fully charged. Just a food for thought...
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I am with you Richard. Perception is very subjective.
On the subject of the source. I noticed many of you use mac mini. Why upgrade PSUs in minis if you can use Mac Book Pro with built in battery? I use mine and turn off display brightness, keyboard led's off and control it from touchpad (splashtop remote, switch track and disconnect not to waste CPU cycles). I've measured noise on 5V line of USB with supplied adapter as well as Chineese knockoffs from ebay. The old Dell laptop laying around at work had lower noise (better regulation). It's ugly when charging circuitry is on and pretty clean (comparing to battery powered) when battery is fully charged. Just a food for thought...
Appreciate your recommendations. I have read several similar posts (at Computer Audiophile where I seem to hang out mostly) from members who have similar preferences. Just started chuckling to myself when suddenly a remembrance of some tech support person telling me that Dell used cheap USB ports and it was the source of my problem. This was back in the days when I had a Dell Laptop (2003 to 2008) long before I ever became interested in computer audio. I was having problems with peripherals attached to the USB ports of the Dell, and the memory of the exchange just popped into my awareness. But that has nothing to do with today's Dell laptop, or any of your suggestions. I would have to admit to a bias in favor of the Mac Mini as a music server with SSD/8GB/Thunderbolt/min-display/HDMI ports.
What shaped my choice for the first Mac Mini I bought in 2011 when I first pursued computer audio system (and only offered in the 2010 Mac Mini model style with internal DVD or the server model) and months later, absorbed the cost and purchased the Thunderbolt i7 2011 version (no internal DVD), were the recommendations at various websites, i.e., PM, Amarra, and others. They also mentioned Mac Pro and Mac Book Pro.
I do not doubt that you have honed in a setup that provides the minimum electronic, if any, interference etc. with the rendition of music because of hardware limitations. I had briefly considered the Mach 2 but something just holds me back (including resistance and possibly ignorance) which I rationalize as not wanting to get esoteric. So when it comes to support if ever needed I don't have to jump through hoops. I am not that ambitious when it comes to modifying components, although I did purchase Oppo's upgrade of the BDP-83 to an SE, but not Modwright's or Nuforce, who provided better regulation etc.
Still, I greatly appreciate the contrast you present which prompts me to review, research and get comfortable with an area I avoid because I am not comfortable with modded equipment beyond what the manufacturer might offer. Not that Dan Wright or Nuforce are controversial (although they have made errors like reversing wires etc.). I also liked the clean (in appearance) powerful processor and array of ports. I keep USB/firewire mandatory. While I do not shut off everything, i.e., Time Machine and Spotlight, I keep operations essential when playing music. I can not provide you with technical reasons nor am I technically savvy. What I do have is a great sounding system, and I am certain that changes I am not even familiar with or eager to implement could make it even better. That's one of my weaknesses. You're thoughtful to educate me. And I truly appreciate the information.
Steve promotes his OverDrive SE so that one does not need an OffRamp 5. He also believes a passive line stage preamp á la Music First or Sterling Knight (?) would improve the SQ greatly. That I am considering. But the OverDrive SE is quite costly. And honestly, the W4S Dac2 sounds very good and with the OffRamp 5 even better. I am waiting for several things to converge including that moment when I feel a green light go off somewhere in my awareness and then I takes my chances.
Sorry for the long post.
Adding this piece of information derived from a thread at CA I just happened to read after posting to you. Mac Mini AP Edition http://www.itemaudio.com/index.php/digital-audio-sources/modified-audio-computers/mac-mini-upgrades/detail/8-parts-a-modification/flypage%7Cask/128-mac-mini-ap-edition?sef=hcfp
Best,
Richard
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Since my last post re Amarra. There have been stunning changes. By stunning I refer to the SQ which I find superb (even if the word feels lofty). I play mostly jazz, classical, pop and rock and lots of instrumental. I know others argue Pure Music has a better soundstage, Audirvana Plus easier interface etc. I own them all and keep them updated. I know Steve who appears and endorses Amarra, at least their EQ, has a favorite build. What does Steve know? :) Latest published build is excellent. But the Betas in progression have improved in SQ, and reliability for playing gapless while in Amarra mode meaning no flagging in iTunes. Playlist mode has also improved even beyond how good the SQ was before. Yes, you have to add the tracks into a playlist to accomplish playing the tracks (gaplessly as well) without the need to first flag them as gapless.
Presently, the most recent Beta is stunning. It should have some wrinkles pressed out shortly and become the next published release. My enthusiasm for Amarra has some wondering if I am on their payroll. I never respond to those comments. And I am only a beta tester because I decided I wanted to give back in some way for the pleasurable listening experience I derive from Amarra. I also have a large (?) collection of over 4,000 albums (may be that's not large) and I am in the process of converting everything over to AIFF. The ease of selecting (actually even finding the album easily), not having to handle discs and operate sources (well a remote if I chose to)...You know where I am going with this. As I own all the other players (they're mostly wonderful too), I have a perspective (subjective at best) and Amarra is sonically superior to my ears.
Merely touching on the progression of this player from time to time. Now with Mountain Lion, which I favor over Lion (never cared for that OSX build), Amarra and ML make beautiful music together.
Best,
Richard
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How do the current mac mini's sound?
Not as good as the older late 2009 model which was DC powered. If you use the USB port next to the middle one, it is killer good.
Steve N.
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Steve. Can you post a pic of the ideal usb port to use? One on either side of center? Regarding post above, an offramp 5 used with Steven's new dac actually makes the unit sound worse, flat and unnatural. Actually auditioning the various components helps the decision process emmesely.
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Steve. Can you post a pic of the ideal usb port to use? One on either side of center? Regarding post above, an offramp 5 used with Steven's new dac actually makes the unit sound worse, flat and unnatural. Actually auditioning the various components helps the decision process emmesely.
If you look at the end USB connector, near the center of the chassis, it's the one next to this.
Steve N.
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OK it's been a like a week since i've downloaded the trail version of Amarra and I wanted to add my 2cents on my thoughts about it. What i've been using all along is Pure Music, so i can't help but compare them. Pure Music I like a lot, love it. It's solid program with a great sound. Do Amarra and Pure Music sound different? They certainly do. I gotta say that I actually prefer Amarra's sound. It seems to have more omph on the lower, mid/lower territory. But don't get me wrong, its a pretty well organized and defined omph, so for me its definitely a good thing. Also, the tonality as a whole seems to be more tight, which I like. Pure Music, in comparison, is lighter on its feet. It's a more forward/bright sound. So, for my taste, Amarra takes the dinner home on sound (for my particular system and my personal taste). Another advantage Amarra has is you can "needle drop" to any point in a song. Pure Music doesn't let u do that, its just the beginning of the song where u can go to. If Pure Music can do this, please enlighten me, but I still haven't been able to crack that yet.
The way I listen to music is: Pure Music>Itunes>Airfoil for wireless transmitting (As many of you know Itunes won't airplay to apple tv when run by Pure Music or Amarra)>Apple TV>DAC>AMP>Blla bla bla. The reason I mention this is to bring to light the only thing I haven't liked about Amarra. Sometimes, with this configuration, It just won't sound, and it ends up crashing. Airfoil doesn't get a signal, and when i try to go to Amarra to ask it what's up, it won't respond and it ends up crashing. So yea that's a big bummer. When this happens, it sticks. It just won't work. I dunno if it's something i'm doing wrong, but the fact that it simply crashes at the end, tell me it's some Airfoil/Amarra communicating problem. Which brings me to a point in Amarra's defense, this happens only with Airfoil and Amarra. If i connect the computer directly to the Dac, no problems. But I do my music sessions wirelessly, and the only way I can get the music to the apple tv using Amarra is thru Airfoil, so for me it's a problem. Well anyhow, what i do when this happens is, I open up Pure Music, and use it, and after a while open Amarra to see if it settled it's issues. Sometimes it's still angry, but most of the times it's ready to play again. So on this, Pure Music gets the points. Pure Music has never crashed on me, and that's pretty important. I see it like a car, once a car leaves u stranded on the road, u start looking at it differently. On the other hand, if it's a trooper and it's been to hell and back with you without incidents, you love it to death.
So to wrap it up: take in mind i'm probably not using any of these wonderful programs to it's full potential. I just plug and play, so maybe this review won't be that good for some, and by not mentioning all the capabilities maybe i'm not being fair to either. Having said that, i guess the question I have to try and answer to myself is if my better liking of Amarra's sound over Pure Music is gonna over shadow the crash issues? I hate to say it (cause I already own Pure Music) but i think it does. When i use Pure Music now, the first thing i do is open up the EQ and give a lil' boost to the 120hz and bellow freq. That's something I never did before listening to Amarra. But i don't like giving that boost to Pure Music, it still doesn't sound as natural or tight as Amarra. So Amarra wins in my book, to me it just sounds that much better in my system.
(Paradigm Studio 20 V.5, Paradigm Seismic 110 Sub, Nakamichi Sasis PA-5 amp, Peachtree Audio iDac, Apple TV, Wireworld Oasis 6 analog Inerconects, Wireworld Supernova 6 Toshlink, Wireworld Stream 16/2 speake cables)
Paz,
Simon
PS: The version of Amarra that came with the trail is 2.4.1(4405), when/if i buy it i'll see if I have the option to download the version that Steve recommends.
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IMHO Amarra 3.4.1 is a move in a wrong direction but it doesn't matter anymore.
Not to change the subject of this thread, but those who haven't tried JPLAY 4.3 absolutely must do this. New version supports ASIO though I've heard not all devices are compatible (Diverter HR works including direct link mode). Do it now, do not wait. :roll: I doubt I am going to boot Mountain Lion on my Macbook Pro for music playback. :lol: I have been using jplay plugin with foobar (you can download app to control from your phone/tablet) but you can also use it with itunes and jriver. No more headaches with .cue, flac, ape, wv... It just works and it sounds fantastic.
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I have heard that the Jplay/Foobar combo is a winner from several people.
I compared the latest release of Amarra 4.2 yesterday and unfortunately it is still not there IMO. 4318/19 release is still the best I have heard. 4.2 sounds like you are listening through a tunnel. Not live. I like Amarra because I always use the EQ capability, and my version sounds really good.
I may get a chance to use Jplay and Foobar soon, but it will not have the benefit of EQ....
Steve N.
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Steve, the trick is ASIO. KS and WASAPI sound somewhat congested (listening through a tunnel is another way to describe it). Until Jplay 4.3 release Amarra was my favorite player.
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Steve, the trick is ASIO. KS and WASAPI sound somewhat congested (listening through a tunnel is another way to describe it). Until Jplay 4.3 release Amarra was my favorite player.
That could be a problem. The M2Tech driver is most stable with KS and WASAPI. Tends to crash with directsound, but I'll give it a try. Thanks for the clarification.
Steve N.
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So I tried the 15-day trial of the version 4319 and loved it. I just purchased and downloaded the latest Amarra version, but now I'm having trouble re-activating the 4319 version. I tried opening the Extra folder and running the delete preference command then opened up the 4319 version- then it prompted me for the activation code. I entered my new activation code, email and password, but it gives me an error!
I emailed Amarra about how to do this a couple days ago and they still haven't gotten back to me. I'm impatient and can't wait. Can anybody help me with this?
Thanks,
Ernie
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So I tried the 15-day trial of the version 4319 and loved it. I just purchased and downloaded the latest Amarra version, but now I'm having trouble re-activating the 4319 version. I tried opening the Extra folder and running the delete preference command then opened up the 4319 version- then it prompted me for the activation code. I entered my new activation code, email and password, but it gives me an error!
I emailed Amarra about how to do this a couple days ago and they still haven't gotten back to me. I'm impatient and can't wait. Can anybody help me with this?
Thanks,
Ernie
You must enter the old password and then give it a new password at the prompt.
Did you delete preferences in the existing Amarra folder and left the 4319 files alone?
Steve N.
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I tried that and no luck and yes I deleted the preferences in the new folder.
I read that after 3 tries the system locks you out and that it will need to be re-set by Amarra. Looks like I'm gonna have to wait until they get back to me. uggggg
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I tried that and no luck and yes I deleted the preferences in the new folder.
I read that after 3 tries the system locks you out and that it will need to be re-set by Amarra. Looks like I'm gonna have to wait until they get back to me. uggggg
If you can't remember the password, the best thing is to do the email option so they send you a new one.
Steve N.
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Not as good as the older late 2009 model which was DC powered. If you use the USB port next to the middle one, it is killer good.
Steve N.
Hi Steve!
I've been reading this thread (and many others) with great interest. I'm also in the market for a USB to SPDIF (preferably AES/EBU) converter (still trying to figure out whether yours also comes as 220 VAC model). Please feel free to PM me!
Curious about two things: which "older late 2009" Mac Mini are you referring to? There are at least three different Intels: 2.26 GHz, 2.53 GHz and 2.66 GHz. Also, does your opinion regarding the "best" Amarra version remain unchanged?
Thanks in advance!
Greetings from Switzerland, David.
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Here is what I found:
2009 Mini sounds best. 120GB SSD m akes about 10% improvement. 8GB DRAM makes no difference.
Making
the SW changes in the other thread (UltraFi) makes aboiut 20% improvement.
Amarra 4319 makes about 30% imrovement.
A better power suppl for the Mini makes an improvement, but I have not tried it on mine yet.
Using one of the two inner USB ports makes about 15% improvement.
Steve N.
Could you point me to that "other thread", please (not sure which)? TIA!
Greetings from Switzerland, David.
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Hi Steve!
I've been reading this thread (and many others) with great interest. I'm also in the market for a USB to SPDIF (preferably AES/EBU) converter (still trying to figure out whether yours also comes as 220 VAC model). Please feel free to PM me!
IT is universal. I will put the correct AC plug adapter in the box.
Curious about two things: which "older late 2009" Mac Mini are you referring to? There are at least three different Intels: 2.26 GHz, 2.53 GHz and 2.66 GHz.
2.26 version
Also, does your opinion regarding the "best" Amarra version remain unchanged?
Unchanged.
The mods to OSX can be found in iBooks in iTunes:
The Audio Optimization Guide
Steve N,
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Dear Steve
Thanks so much for the pointers! A few more questions if I may:
1. Do you no longer offer a battery power supply for your USB interface? If so, why?
2. Have you compared your 2009 Mac Mini's (just missed pulling the trigger on one at auction, bummer…) audio performance to that of a Mac Book Pro (whose RFI rejection is said to be superior)?
3. How important is the OS's ability to do handle files in integer mode (in other words, should one install 10.6.8 Snow Leopard instead of Mountain Lion on a dedicated music server)?
4. How does one play back files on a Mac Mini if no USB connections are ever meant to be used simultaneously, that is none apart from the one connected to the USB interface (no keyboard, no screen), with the WiFi turned off? (Only thing that springs to mind would be to connect the Mac Mini to the local network via Ethernet and use e.g. an iPhone or iPad via the "remote" app.)
Thanks in advance!
Greetings from Switzerland, David.
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Dear Steve
Thanks so much for the pointers! A few more questions if I may:
1. Do you no longer offer a battery power supply for your USB interface? If so, why?
No. Bacause it was all hand-built and I dont have time for this anymore. I dont sell enough of these to warrant contract assembly.
2. Have you compared your 2009 Mac Mini's (just missed pulling the trigger on one at auction, bummer…) audio performance to that of a Mac Book Pro (whose RFI rejection is said to be superior)?
No, but one customer with both likes the Pro
3. How important is the OS's ability to do handle files in integer mode (in other words, should one install 10.6.8 Snow Leopard instead of Mountain Lion on a dedicated music server)?
I am using Snow Leopard. some have said ML sounds better, but my most reliable contact says no.
4. How does one play back files on a Mac Mini if no USB connections are ever meant to be used simultaneously, that is none apart from the one connected to the USB interface (no keyboard, no screen), with the WiFi turned off? (Only thing that springs to mind would be to connect the Mac Mini to the local network via Ethernet and use e.g. an iPhone or iPad via the "remote" app.)
I use bluetooth wireless keyboard and mouse and I dont bother turning off WiFi. Some of these things have little or no effect IME. Like 64-bit mode. I cant hear anything....
Steve N.
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Thanks again, Steve!
Still on the look-out for a 2009 Mini. Curious: once you replaced the original HD with an SSD, what happened to the fan (noise)? Even assuming the temperature sensor is being reattached, don't those older models always run their fan at a minimum 1'800 rpm (if not higher)?
Greetings from Switzerland, David.
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By the way, do you use the in-built, or preferably an external drive to rip files? Asking this because I'm obviously looking at used 2009 late Minis.
Greetings from Switzerland, David.
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By the way, do you use the in-built, or preferably an external drive to rip files? Asking this because I'm obviously looking at used 2009 late Minis.
Greetings from Switzerland, David.
I never notice the fan noise. Its at my side, not in front.
I use a USB Teac slot drive to rip CD's.
Steve N.
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I have been using the Amarra version Steve suggests for some time now. I tried the 2.5 version and it sounds better to me. More body, improved tone and not as thin sounding. You may want to try it as I was quite surprised with the overall improvement.
The bass is full and has more impact. The bottom line to me is it is just more musical and less Hifi or digital sounding. The differences are not day and night here, but degrees.
This is the first time any version has sounded better than the 19 version we all enjoy. I am not referring to the 2.5.1, but the 2.5.
I use a Lampizator 4/4 dac and followed all of Steve's advice with a 2009 Mini, SW tweaks, SSD drive etc.... I have a Mojo Audio power supply on the Mini that made the biggest difference of all as an FYI to the group.
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I think it is good also, but the focus is not quite as good with my system. I'm sticking w/4319. It is just more real sounding to me.
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Tried Amarra 2.6 today and it is pretty good. It has a deeper soundstage and the detail is on par with 2.3.3. It has a quieter background in the music also, making it more immersive, so to speak...
The only 2 drawbacks are the center focus is not quite as fine tuned as 2.3.3, although close. The bass is not quite as focused either, but I will say that 2.6 is really good. If they could just sharpen up the focus, it would be a winner for sure. It did improve on a couple things over 2.3.3.
Still staying with 2.3.3 though for the time being. It just locks in better :)
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Thought I would share this here, as it pertains to Amarra...
I quickly realized that no TV or monitor plugged into the Mini made a nice improvement to the sound.
In order to do this, I had been using the Remote App for the Ipad, to control Amarra/ITunes. However, I like the Playlist function for Amarra, with my ever increasing library of music. I like the convenience of dragging the file into the Playlist, and done.
I found an App called PocketCloud, and I know there are others, and I'm sure I am late to this party, but this one works pretty good. It allows me to control the desktop from the Ipad.
So, you effectively improve the sound of the Mini by disconnecting the monitor, while being able to remotely control the Playlist feature of Amarra. Win Win!
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Thought I would share this here, as it pertains to Amarra...
I quickly realized that no TV or monitor plugged into the Mini made a nice improvement to the sound.
In order to do this, I had been using the Remote App for the Ipad, to control Amarra/ITunes. However, I like the Playlist function for Amarra, with my ever increasing library of music. I like the convenience of dragging the file into the Playlist, and done.
T
I found an App called PocketCloud, and I know there are others, and I'm sure I am late to this party, but this one works pretty good. It allows me to control the desktop from the Ipad
So, you effectively improve the sound of the Mini by disconnecting the monitor, while being able to remotely control the Playlist feature of Amarra. Win Win!
Paul79...Thks for the heads up on the PocketCloud (running JRMC however), it actually installed easily and is great, have been looking for something like this for some time. Will disconnect my monitor too and give a listen.
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I have been using Amarra Symphony w/IRC since early January. Prior to that I was using the stock Amarra release. The integrated room correction in Symphony is killer good. It was a pricey upgrade but well worth it IMO.
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Steve, assume you have listened to 3.0, any SQ changes/improvements ? Can I get the best SQ with regular Amarra and the iRC add on or do I need Sym ?
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I think the IRC add on is a partial implementation called IRC(b) which does the lower frequency corrections. I had a chance to listen to Amarra 3.0 with IRC(b) when I upgraded to Symphony 3.0 and Sonic Studio sent me the wrong upgrade link. Based on that relatively short listening experience, Symphony with IRC is much better than Amarra with IRC(b).
The reason the listening experience was so short is that I knew within about 2 seconds something was wrong with the original upgrade, it really was that obvious.
Todd
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Thks Todd, after posting I learned on CA that was the case.
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Hi Steve and all other dear audiophiles!!
I'm still a huge fan of Steve's Off-Ramp 5 with his PSU using them with my highly modified Mac mini late 2009 (with Paul Hynes PSU SR-7).
I've used Amarra 2.6 for years and after the latest upgrades I decided to try the version 4319, downloaded a software for 15-day trial.
I loved a version of 4319 so much better than 2.6, but I entered to a huge problem after the 15-day trial of the version 4319.
I've activation activation codes for 2.6 and 3.0 that either one didn't work with the version of 4319.
I contacted to Sonic Studio (Amarra) what can be done to get 4319 and they told me it's the older license model that they don't support anymore.
Like stated I tried my activation codes for the versions of 2.6 and 3.0, and both of them didn't work with 4319 when trying to activate it.
How to get Amarra 4319 activated as Sonic Studio is not willing to provide any advice or support on this matter.
What are my options to get the version of 4319 activated?.
Would it work, if I buy license (with iLok), activation code from the other audiophile who isn't using it anymore?. Would it really work?.
Or is there any other way around to solve this problem I'm currently having with the version of 4319? I'd highly appreciate any advice, on this matter..
Can you Steve or anybody help me with this?
Thanks in advance, Ilkka
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I wish I knew how to help you. Amarra, like many companies don't support older versions. They did for a while, but then stopped.
Steve N.
Hi Steve and all other dear audiophiles!!
I'm still a huge fan of Steve's Off-Ramp 5 with his PSU using them with my highly modified Mac mini late 2009 (with Paul Hynes PSU SR-7).
I've used Amarra 2.6 for years and after the latest upgrades I decided to try the version 4319, downloaded a software for 15-day trial.
I loved a version of 4319 so much better than 2.6, but I entered to a huge problem after the 15-day trial of the version 4319.
I've activation activation codes for 2.6 and 3.0 that either one didn't work with the version of 4319.
I contacted to Sonic Studio (Amarra) what can be done to get 4319 and they told me it's the older license model that they don't support anymore.
Like stated I tried my activation codes for the versions of 2.6 and 3.0, and both of them didn't work with 4319 when trying to activate it.
How to get Amarra 4319 activated as Sonic Studio is not willing to provide any advice or support on this matter.
What are my options to get the version of 4319 activated?.
Would it work, if I buy license (with iLok), activation code from the other audiophile who isn't using it anymore?. Would it really work?.
Or is there any other way around to solve this problem I'm currently having with the version of 4319? I'd highly appreciate any advice, on this matter..
Can you Steve or anybody help me with this?
Thanks in advance, Ilkka
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Hi Steve,
Thanks for your response.
I've a simple question for you: "Would it be a feasible option to move forward, if I buy older license 2.3.3 (4319) from another audiophile who has no a need and use for it anymore?" Any thoughts on this.?
A many companies don't support older versions?! I've worked so many 20+ years in industry leading high-tech environment, and software projects that it makes me wonder, if company does not have any backwards compatibility in their software development. It's a bad sign of software quality factors and also often means that they don't have software architecture existing (e.g. how you build your house, clear structures), that often lead increased software overhead, complexity and lower performance, when new solutions and features are introduced... Then a music industry has a lot to do, and learn about high quality software development.?
Thank you in advance, Ilkka
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That might work. Seems like everything is lower quality now and not meant to last. Nothing repairable either. They don't want to maintain older software.
Even my own third-party developer of my USB firmware abandoned the version that I have so it no longer works with Mac OS, only Linux and Windows.
Steve N.
Hi Steve,
Thanks for your response.
I've a simple question for you: "Would it be a feasible option to move forward, if I buy older license 2.3.3 (4319) from another audiophile who has no a need and use for it anymore?" Any thoughts on this.?
A many companies don't support older versions?! I've worked so many 20+ years in industry leading high-tech environment, and software projects that it makes me wonder, if company does not have any backwards compatibility in their software development. It's a bad sign of software quality factors and also often means that they don't have software architecture existing (e.g. how you build your house, clear structures), that often lead increased software overhead, complexity and lower performance, when new solutions and features are introduced... Then a music industry has a lot to do, and learn about high quality software development.?
Thank you in advance, Ilkka