[DanTheMan]

(((snip)))
Wait a second here. We aren't to fret about room reflections, but we are to be concerned with the off axis response of the speakers?

To some degree.  You really have to just read the research.  It will just make things much easier.  For me to explain it gets lengthy.  I've done enough lengthy posting today
I'll give you a link if you want a quick look.
http://www.amazon.com/Sound-Reproduction-Acoustics-Psychoacoustics-Loudspeakers/dp/0240520092
http://www.harman.com/EN-US/OurCompany/Technologyleadership/Documents/Scientific%20Publications/5276.pdf
http://www.harman.com/EN-US/OurCompany/Technologyleadership/Documents/Scientific%20Publications/5270.pdf

Seeing a picture of your listening room helps me learn about you Dan. It tells me a great deal about what you put value in or not. Things like speaker placement, room treatments, whether or not you have cable risers on your cables (just kidding) or not...

I do have cable risers.  They keep my doors open.   I've already told you what I place value in--many times.

Dan

[dvenardos]

+1. I know that Danny makes great speakers from personal experience. I am willing to try some of the things that he thinks are beneficial and seek council from his vast experience designing speakers. I would prefer blind tests, but in the end all I care about is how the music sounds.

I would liken this to buying an automobile......I could read all the stats, look at the reviews, and make a conclusion on what I want to drive simply by what the figures tell me.....
But until I actually drive it, stick my family in it, and see if "I" like it.....its just data.....

[Danny Richie]

What do you figure was off about my attempt to explain tonality?

Let's break it down in simple terms. Let's think about the tonality of a single instrument being played back. Take a piano for instance. What measurement will we take to see the correct tonality?

And I am not talking about just amplitude correctness.

Believe it on not, in my system, I can replace one set of interconnect for a pair that has never been used and by doing that add a slight ringing to the trailing edges of the piano notes. Tonality was changed by a difference cable, even though the two cables were identical.

Clearly, there is no way of measuring the speaker that will show this. The difference in tonality in this case is not even speaker related. 

The same goes for two capacitors that have the same uF reading but sound very different.

My buddy Art has two different crossovers for his LS-9's. Both are mounted externally and he swaps between them at will. All of the values are the same. One uses Mundorf caps primarily, the other Sonicaps. One has a slightly more lush mid-range, more softened highs, and the sound stage depth is not as deep or enveloping compared to the other. The other is slightly sharper, cleaner, has more distinct highs with a little more space between notes. The sound stage is deeper and a little wore involving too.

The speakers will measure the same with both crossovers, but the tonality is very different. It is like having a different balance.

[DanTheMan]

Dvenardos, I don't think anyone doubt that Danny makes great speakers.  Well, some people might, but that's not what the threads really dealing.  There are no implications of otherwise as some seem to think I am implying.

The blind testing has already been done.  The specs are known as to what people like.  Danny actually uses those metrics to design his speakers and even goes further into the unknown--or rather unconfirmed or not researched and published.

I've gotten some pretty nasty PMs about these things that are just so far off base it's craziness. 

The biggest difference I see in my thinking vs. Danny's is that even though he designs to the research he doesn't to acknowledge it as valid.  Actually states strongly that it is wrong. 

Dan

[Danny Richie]

Me....

Wait a second here. We aren't to fret about room reflections, but we are to be concerned with the off axis response of the speakers?

Your response...

To some degree.  You really have to just read the research.  It will just make things much easier.  For me to explain it gets lengthy.

Really? Are you sure? Let's think about his one Dan.

You want your speakers to have an even off axis response, but your brain is going to sort out that you have a side wall reflection that causes a peak at 3kHz? And what makes you think this is any different than your speaker having an off axis response peak at 3kHz?

Same thing man.

You can't focus on one and ignore the other.

Let's see that room pic man!

[DanTheMan]

Let's break it down in simple terms. Let's think about the tonality of a single instrument being played back. Take a piano for instance. What measurement will we take to see the correct tonality?

And I am not talking about just amplitude correctness.

Believe it on not, in my system, I can replace one set of interconnect for a pair that has never been used and by doing that add a slight ringing to the trailing edges of the piano notes. Tonality was changed by a difference cable, even though the two cables were identical.

Clearly, there is no way of measuring the speaker that will show this. The difference in tonality in this case is not even speaker related. 

The same goes for two capacitors that have the same uF reading but sound very different.

My buddy Art has two different crossovers for his LS-9's. Both are mounted externally and he swaps between them at will. All of the values are the same. One uses Mundorf caps primarily, the other Sonicaps. One has a slightly more lush mid-range, more softened highs, and the sound stage depth is not as deep or enveloping compared to the other. The other is slightly sharper, cleaner, has more distinct highs with a little more space between notes. The sound stage is deeper and a little wore involving too.

The speakers will measure the same with both crossovers, but the tonality is very different. It is like having a different balance.

You just repeated what I already said, but under a different explanation.  From my end this reads like silly posturing.

Dan

[DanTheMan]

Me....

Your response...
Really? Are you sure? Let's think about his one Dan.

You want your speakers to have an even off axis response, but your brain is going to sort out that you have a side wall reflection that causes a peak at 3kHz? And what makes you think this is any different than your speaker having an off axis response peak at 3kHz?

Same thing man.

You can't focus on one and ignore the other.

Let's see that room pic man!

That's why if you get your speaker correct, you don't have to worry so much.  That has been my point all the while.

Stop posturing, it's unbecoming.

Dan

[Danny Richie]

I've gotten some pretty nasty PMs about these things that are just so far off base it's craziness. 

Well, so far you think I am off base to suggest audible differences between capacitors.

Regardless of what Dan may think about this, I do not condone sending nasty e-mails to him about it. We need to keep this civil and share or experiences with one another so we all can learn something from it.

The biggest difference I see in my thinking vs. Danny's is that even though he designs to the research he doesn't to acknowledge it as valid.  Actually states strongly that it is wrong. 

Come on Dan. That's not true. I design by the numbers and measure everything. The measurements can tell you a great deal about how a speaker will sound, but it does so by showing the problems or absence of problems. In the end there are a ton of variables that will determine how a speaker sounds that are well outside the basic measurements.

[Danny Richie]

That's why if you get your speaker correct, you don't have to worry so much.  That has been my point all the while.

Stop posturing, it's unbecoming.

I am not posturing.

Is the room part of the system or not?

[DanTheMan]

Of course.

Dan

[srb]

Danny,
 
It is helpful to use the Insert Quote function instead of just typing in quote tags, so that people can see who it is you're quoting without having to search and re-read previous posts.
 
In many of your other posts in topics I often don't know who you are quoting, although in this particular thread you are most likely quoting DanTheMan.
 
Steve

[Danny Richie]

Danny actually uses those metrics to design his speakers and even goes further into the unknown--or rather unconfirmed or not researched and published.

Not unconfirmed or un-researched. The complete opposite.

Let's take a simple capacitor.

Do you think these companies just wind these things up and charge what the market will bare in accordance to their marketing?

I am what you'd think of as in industry insider. I get privy to some interesting manufacturing insights.

I can tell you that there are cap manufactures that will make many variations of the same cap and then listen to it in various applications to see what the differences are. Variations can include the thickness of the conductive material, how it is sprayed on or rolled, tightness of the winding, thickness of the dielectric material, length of the cap verses the diameter, how the end leads are terminated, termination material, wire type, coatings, type of dielectric material, type of film, etc.

And I have cap manufacturers send me samples all the time for my feedback.

I had one cap manufacturer send me three samples of the same cap and the only difference was the coating. One had a poly coating and was completely dipped and sealed. One had a poly coating just as a wrapper, but the ends were open, and one was completely open and was just wrapped in what looked like tissue paper. Each one of them sounded different.

[Danny Richie]

Okay SRB, how do I do that?

[Danny Richie]

Okay Dan,

If the room is part of the system then how can we emphasize the off axis response of the speaker but not focus any attention to the room acoustics?

And come on man, show me a pic of your listening room.

[DanTheMan]

Well, so far you think I am off base to suggest audible differences between capacitors.

Actually you've got to reread this thread.  I found research to back your opinion and posted it and conceded.

Regardless of what Dan may think about this, I do not condone sending nasty e-mails to him about it. We need to keep this civil and share or experiences with one another so we all can learn something from it.

Thanks Danny.
 

Come on Dan. That's not true. I design by the numbers and measure everything. The measurements can tell you a great deal about how a speaker will sound, but it does so by showing the problems or absence of problems. In the end there are a ton of variables that will determine how a speaker sounds that are well outside the basic measurements.

That I'll agree to for the most part.  There are many phenomenon that are hard to measure and I don't have the capability.  Choosing a speaker that measures worse by the metrics that have been shown to matter has never been shown to be a good idea that I know of.  There's a lot of evidence that says it's a bad idea that I know of.  Therefor, I won't recommend someone buys a speaker that measures worse based on a belief.  I couldn't even recommend anyone buy a speaker w/o knowing how it measures based on listening. There are too many variables in there to really know what you are getting and it's been shown to be unreliable.  I understand and appreciate buying off of a listening impression b/c of the lack of available measurements.  It's something I can do exceedingly little about.

That's what I'm saying, but legibility does not equal communication as we've seen many times. 

Dan

[DanTheMan]

Not unconfirmed or un-researched. The complete opposite.

Let's take a simple capacitor.

Do you think these companies just wind these things up and charge what the market will bare in accordance to their marketing?

I am what you'd think of as in industry insider. I get privy to some interesting manufacturing insights.

I can tell you that there are cap manufactures that will make many variations of the same cap and then listen to it in various applications to see what the differences are. Variations can include the thickness of the conductive material, how it is sprayed on or rolled, tightness of the winding, thickness of the dielectric material, length of the cap verses the diameter, how the end leads are terminated, termination material, wire type, coatings, type of dielectric material, type of film, etc.

And I have cap manufacturers send me samples all the time for my feedback.

I had one cap manufacturer send me three samples of the same cap and the only difference was the coating. One had a poly coating and was completely dipped and sealed. One had a poly coating just as a wrapper, but the ends were open, and one was completely open and was just wrapped in what looked like tissue paper. Each one of them sounded different.

OK then, research you have published.

I'll get back to the rest of this later.  I've got things to do.

Dan

[DanTheMan]

Okay Dan,

If the room is part of the system then how can we emphasize the off axis response of the speaker but not focus any attention to the room acoustics?

And come on man, show me a pic of your listening room.

No offense, but why in the hell would you want so badly to see pics of my room or know what my system consists of?  It's just odd to me.  Pestering me about it is annoying.  No offense, but I don't care one iota what you've got.

I never said we don't have to focus on room acoustics.  Legibility..........

OK, gotta run.

Dan

[srb]

Okay SRB, how do I do that?

If you click the Quote link to the right of the title of each post (instead of the Reply link at the top or bottom of the page), it will put you into the reply-message edit mode with that post's text inserted (but it does not insert any quotes within that quoted post).  This way the posters name, date and time are automatically inserted.
 
You can delete any text you don't want to quote.  If you want to break it up with several quote boxes, just copy and paste the beginning quote string.
 
While editing your reply, there is a small Insert Quote link next to each post below your message editing window if you want to insert quotes from other users.
 
Steve

[Danny Richie]

Dan...

That I'll agree to for the most part.  There are many phenomenon that are hard to measure and I don't have the capability.  Choosing a speaker that measures worse by the metrics that have been shown to matter has never been shown to be a good idea that I know of.  There's a lot of evidence that says it's a bad idea that I know of.  Therefor, I won't recommend someone buys a speaker that measures worse based on a belief.  I couldn't even recommend anyone buy a speaker w/o knowing how it measures based on listening. There are too many variables in there to really know what you are getting and it's been shown to be unreliable.  I understand and appreciate buying off of a listening impression b/c of the lack of available measurements.  It's something I can do exceedingly little about.

Okay. Check this shoot out again.

http://www.stereomojo.com/Small%20Speaker%20Shootout%202007/SmallSpeakerShootout2007Part1.htm

While the winning speaker may have had some of the best measurements, there was still a significant difference between the stock speaker and the one with the Ninja mods. Those upgraded crossover parts really take it to another level.

And once a capacitor company figures out what elements make the most difference and where they feel like they can have a competitive advantage, there is NO WAY they will publish that data.

Dan...

No offense, but why in the hell would you want so badly to see pics of my room or know what my system consists of?  It's just odd to me.  Pestering me about it is annoying.

That is not an unusual request. I told you, it helps me understand more of where you are coming from. You just answered my question a minute ago that the room WAS part of the system. Well that is a part that I still do not know. I know you are using some $152 speakers and a HK receiver of some kind. I still don't know about the source. I would guess that I would not find any exotic cables. 

The most important part of a system are speakers and the room. Everything else comes after that.

So it is not an odd request. If it annoyed you that I asked, don't let it bother you. I won't ask again if it bothers you. It wasn't meant to invade your privacy.

I was just trying to get a full mental image of where you are coming from.

[Danny Richie]

You're awesome Steve,

If you click the Quote link to the right of the title of each post (instead of the Reply link at the top or bottom of the page), it will put you into the reply-message edit mode with that post's text inserted (but it does not insert any quotes within that quoted post).  This way the posters name, date and time are automatically inserted.
 
You can delete any text you don't want to quote.  If you want to break it up with several quote boxes, just copy and paste the beginning quote string.
 
While editing your reply, there is a small Insert Quote link next to each post below your message editing window if you want to insert quotes from other users.
 
Steve