Impertinent half serious question...

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aceinc

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Re: Impertinent half serious question...
« Reply #20 on: 5 Feb 2017, 03:56 pm »
For those folks that have had, or been up close & personal with the MMGs, does my Idea for a stand in the crude drawings above seem feasible?

Some of the Magnepan speakers had/have wood rails that go up the side, that could be removed and replaced with this sort of stand.

My thought would be to screw it from the side. Worst case scenario would be to have an inset with velcro stapled to the inset and the MMG.

nrenter

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Re: Impertinent half serious question...
« Reply #21 on: 5 Feb 2017, 10:06 pm »
I think Danny worked on a design that augmented the MMGs (or was it the 1.7s...or 1.6 back in the day).

aceinc

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Re: Impertinent half serious question...
« Reply #22 on: 6 Feb 2017, 04:54 am »
This is an off topic ramble, but since I started the thread, I guess it's OK.

Yesterday I took the time to recalibrate my subs, move the B&W 802 Matrixes (Matrices?) in so the front baffle is 3 feet in from the front wall. I then reran the Dirac LE that came with my Emotiva XMC-1.

Then I sat down and listened/watched a concert video, "JEFF BECK ~ Live at Ronnie Scott's" that I have on Blu-ray. I didn't listen at quite live performance levels, but the lights on my XPA-1s were dancing half way through most of it. My wife came home during the first encore, and sat and listened to it. Her main comment (she is not an R&B fan), was she felt like she was in the audience, a high compliment indeed.

I must admit that I really do like a well recorded multi-channel performance. I know for some that is heresy. Speaking of heresy, here is one of my musical journey experiences;

I had a rabid two channel analog evangelist try to convert me once. I went to his shop looking to listen to a pair of "Eminent Technology LFT-8B speakers." I literally called him up and made an appointment just to listen to those specific speakers that he was/is a dealer for. I arrive at the proscribed time and he leads me into his listening room, he has laid on the floor some massive tube mono blocks, and a pair of unassuming small tower speakers, he proudly identified all of the equipment with Mfr. & Model. He had a turntable with what looked like a 8" high translucent platter as the music source. If I had to guess probably $20-$30,000 worth of equipment, maybe more (he may have been using multi-thousand dollar interconnects and wires for all I know). He has me sit in the sweet spot, and proceeds to tell me "You are about to have an auditory epiphany."

It didn't happen, I mean the sound was good and all, but I felt like it wasn't better than the KEF 105.4s attached to the Emotiva rig I had at home. When I uttered this blasphemy, things went down hill in a hurry. He was incensed, he started talking about how digital media slices and dices the music, and that the bits and pieces they take out is what makes the music. Not to mention solid state amps kill whatever is left of the music. All the while I am listening to the slightest of pops and hisses from his vaunted analog system.What seemed to really set him off was when I told him I enjoyed listening to some multi channel music. It was like I had kicked his dog. He almost started sputtering as he explained that when you go to a concert all the music comes from the stage. I did mention, "That yes the music came from the stage but you're listening room doesn't have the acoustics of the hall it was recorded in, so you are losing the ambiance of the venue." I think he walked out of the room at that point to have a drink, not wanting to deal with a Philistine.

I guess I need to learn to shut up sometimes. He had the LFT-8Bs against the back wall with a layer of dust on them, which I never got to hear.  I would still like to hear them.

Since then, I have stayed away from high end stereo stores mostly. I buy or make things, try them and if they are good they stay, otherwise they go.

How does this apply to my thread? Rather tangentially, if at all. Since then I have had the chance to listen to some Martin Logans, and they sounded good, but without anything to directly compare it to, I wasn't blown away. I really want to get a listen to a full dipole system and even thought about going out to Linkwitz's cottage to stay for a few days. However building this system seems like it would cost about the same, and when I am done I would know if they sound good in my room.

At this point I am fairly certain I will build the "W" frame subs and buy a pair of MMGs. With their 60 day home trial, plus they seem to hold their value so I could "upgrade" later to the NX-Otica.

BTW, I am aware that this story says as much about me, the protagonist, as it does about the stereo shop owner. It may be true that I am tone deaf Philistine.
« Last Edit: 6 Feb 2017, 06:11 am by aceinc »

mlundy57

Re: Impertinent half serious question...
« Reply #23 on: 6 Feb 2017, 05:17 am »
Check out AIX records. They record in multi-channel 24/196 PCM. All discs also include 2 channel mixes. When you buy a disc you can also get the hi-Rez digital download for no additional charge.

bdp24

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Re: Impertinent half serious question...
« Reply #24 on: 6 Feb 2017, 09:32 am »
Good story Ace. High end dealers tend to be really opinionated, thinking their way is the only way. I've seen them be insulting, condescending, and downright rude. Surround sound is an absolute no-no with them, even though the original subjective reviewer (and founder of Stereophile) J. Gordon Holt was enthusiastic about the format. The only thing to do is walk away, and look for a better dealer or other enthusiasts who live in your area.

The dealer may have not played you the ET LFT-8b's because they have a smaller dealer margin than other brands. If you can find a used pair, they are a great value at around $1500. They also work particularly well with the OB/Dipole Sub, as do the MMG's. Either speaker with a pair of the subs will punch way above their weight class!

Danny Richie

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Re: Impertinent half serious question...
« Reply #25 on: 6 Feb 2017, 02:20 pm »
There is a way to make the servo subs work under the MMG's. And the MMG's can be significantly upgraded as well. Here is a thread on the upgrade: http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=141550.msg1517919#msg1517919  It stock form they were rather dull. And they do need a lot of power.

Comparing these to the NX-Otica is not much of a comparison as some have already mentioned. They really are in a different class across the board.

aceinc

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Re: Impertinent half serious question...
« Reply #26 on: 6 Feb 2017, 11:59 pm »
I called Magnepan today about the MMG. An interesting conversation. The fellow I talked with seemed to indicate he was an engineer, I don't remember his name but is it possible I was speaking with a principal of Magnepan? At any rate the conversation was basically to upsell me to a .7, as the MMG was too slow for an OB woofer system. Then he said "You should also get a line array tweeter in addition to the .7."  When I added up the numbers he said, "You really should scrap the OB woofer system and just buy the 1.7s."

During the conversation I asked whether there was any more definitive specifications to be had regarding their speakers. I would like to see what I get if I chose the .7 instead of MMG. I was told "People aren't interested in specifications and the technical aspects of the speaker, they just go to a dealer, listen, fall in love and buy it." He followed it with "It is an emotional decision." I laughingly indicated  "You just said I was not in the set of 'people.'" He did not disagree.

He said "I am here all alone", and asked if "I could call back later?" I asked "Do you have any forums, are other methods where I could get more info about your products?" He said "No, we prefer people call." I don't think he got the irony of the juxtaposition of his last two statements.

I guess I have a bad attitude.

So maybe MMGs aren't for me.

Jonathon Janusz

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Re: Impertinent half serious question...
« Reply #27 on: 7 Feb 2017, 01:32 am »
Ace, it isn't just you.  I've learned the hard way that Magnepan just has a very particular way in which they market and sell their products, that could be considered (my words) a little behind the times, but it has (and continues to) work well for them and their business, so I can't really argue with success.  Some folks just prefer to do business over the phone or face to face, no matter how odd that may sound depending on situational context.  Not that I am promoting (or condemning) their products, but try not to judge the product by the sales pitch.  Magnepan makes a darn good speaker at a very reasonable price that does some things very well and that also happens to have a lot of upside potential for folks who like to tinker, tweak, mod, and upgrade - very much the kind of speaker that fits well in Danny's wheelhouse.

All that said, if you are looking for more technical information online about Magnepans, head over to the planar circle here on AC; there are a lot of people with literally decades worth of experience dissecting them to figure out what makes them tick in their stock form, and many are happy to share this information with folks looking to learn more about them.

Now, all of the above said, if you are looking for a DIY project and considering OB designs, if I had to choose between anything below a 3.7 maggie and Danny's n-xotica kit, having heard the super-7 and knowing how I loves me my lower midrange, if I had the room for OB speakers in my living space I would be ordering one of Danny's kits and the OB servo subs to go with them.  In my experience, entry level maggies give you a lot of speaker for the money; Danny's designs deliver a stupid amount of speaker for the money.

Best of luck in your search for your next project!

Shakeydeal

Re: Impertinent half serious question...
« Reply #28 on: 7 Feb 2017, 11:54 am »
Ace,

Here is a very good forum for discussion of all things planar. Back when I was in the maggie camp, I spent a lot of time there. Should be helpful for you.

Shakey

http://www.audioasylum.com/forums/MUG/bbs.html

aceinc

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Re: Impertinent half serious question...
« Reply #29 on: 7 Feb 2017, 04:38 pm »
Ace, it isn't just you.  I've learned the hard way that Magnepan just has a very particular way in which they market and sell their products, that could be considered (my words) a little behind the times, but it has (and continues to) work well for them and their business, so I can't really argue with success.  Some folks just prefer to do business over the phone or face to face, no matter how odd that may sound depending on situational context.  Not that I am promoting (or condemning) their products, but try not to judge the product by the sales pitch.  Magnepan makes a darn good speaker at a very reasonable price that does some things very well and that also happens to have a lot of upside potential for folks who like to tinker, tweak, mod, and upgrade - very much the kind of speaker that fits well in Danny's wheelhouse.

All that said, if you are looking for more technical information online about Magnepans, head over to the planar circle here on AC; there are a lot of people with literally decades worth of experience dissecting them to figure out what makes them tick in their stock form, and many are happy to share this information with folks looking to learn more about them.

Now, all of the above said, if you are looking for a DIY project and considering OB designs, if I had to choose between anything below a 3.7 maggie and Danny's n-xotica kit, having heard the super-7 and knowing how I loves me my lower midrange, if I had the room for OB speakers in my living space I would be ordering one of Danny's kits and the OB servo subs to go with them.  In my experience, entry level maggies give you a lot of speaker for the money; Danny's designs deliver a stupid amount of speaker for the money.

Best of luck in your search for your next project!

I like the fact that I can pick up the phone and talk to someone. I don't like that they are using the MMG as a loss-leader/bait & switch product. I will review the site mentioned.

Beardy

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Re: Impertinent half serious question...
« Reply #30 on: 7 Feb 2017, 07:18 pm »
context: not an educated listener...
I can sympathize but I would note that MMGs are really quite good for the money.  That said my daughter and I built a set of LS classic kits from Danny and I have been very impressed, so perhaps more accurately (and for me, my opinion; normal disclaimers etc...), the MMGs are good compared to most other offerings at that price.  I don't think they are intentionally `bait and switch' but they maybe loss leaders to get people to see what they are missing.  For that reason alone I am grateful...

I went through a similar process and got MMGs on their trial program and it opened my eyes to what I was missing and immediately wanted more.  I thought along the same lines as your proposal but then bought a set of used 1.6QRs and built a pair of Phoenix dipole subwoofers each two 12 inch peerless drivers and driven by an emotiva amp.  They run off a single OPPO sub-output so unfortunately are not L&R.

The sound is good to my ears (disclaimer...), but I have an issue with the lack of imaging and localization; single vocalists sound like they have the mouth of a whale.

In the process of playing around with the kit from Danny I bought a miniwatt and HifimeDIY sabre DAC and ended up with a nice budget system/learning experience for my daughter.  Unfortunately I also gained a yearning to go to a more efficient set of speakers and a tube amp.  Again I thought about rebuilding a set of magnepans and biamping with a tube amp to capture the highs and a more cost effective amp for the bulk of the power, but I can't get away from the other issues of these planars.  Maybe its just me, but the current plan is a MP301 and a set of MTMs (when Danny gets the price up) and then later swap out the W subs for some servos (from Danny).

PS. glad to hear its not just me....
:o)
Beardy
« Last Edit: 7 Feb 2017, 11:33 pm by Beardy »

josh358

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Re: Impertinent half serious question...
« Reply #31 on: 8 Feb 2017, 04:43 am »
I like the fact that I can pick up the phone and talk to someone. I don't like that they are using the MMG as a loss-leader/bait & switch product. I will review the site mentioned.
Knowing the people at Magnepan as I do I can tell you that they aren't doing bait and switch. They have much too much integrity for that. They're perfectly open about the fact that the purpose of the MMG is to introduce people to the Magnepan sound knowing that some of them will move up to a larger model. And the basic reason behind that as I understand it is that with the shrinkage of the high end dealer network, fewer people have the opportunity to hear their speakers -- and it's the sound that sells them. But there's no bait and switch. The MMG's are one of audio's best bargains and I know Wendell (their director of sales, who you probably spoke to) well enough to know that he'll only suggest what he thinks is right for the customer, even if that means telling the customer to get a *smaller* model. As it happens, and having used MMG's as well as larger Maggies in a home theater system, I also agree with him that the 1.7's would be a better match for what you want to do (as I said in my post on the Asylum).

By the way, running wings up to the top of the MMG's as in your other post isn't necessary and won't work. You'll be putting an organ pipe on your midrange! And changing the tonal balance by increasing effective baffle width as well, they take dipole cancellation into account when they tune the drivers. If you put the speakers on top of the OB woofers all you'll need is the W-frame baffle. You don't want to cut holes in the side of it either. As I said on the Asylum, it seems to me that you'd be better off keeping the woofers separate so you can position them for optimum bass and also to reduce vibration in the panels and the possibility that the woofer baffle's resonance will color the midrange.

bdp24

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Re: Impertinent half serious question...
« Reply #32 on: 8 Feb 2017, 08:09 pm »
All real good points Josh, especially about the wings. My Eminent Technology LFT-4's came with wings from the factory, but the speaker was voiced with them in place, unlike the MMG. I think the op still doesn't understand that front-to-back cancellation can NOT be achieved by running wings only halfway up the sides of the MMG. But your point is even more important, Josh---it should not be done! F-t-b cancellation will then become frequency related, changing not just the SPL output capability of the speaker, but it's frequency response as well.

Now, Danny's MMG mod doesn't just haphazardly change the speakers fr, it corrects it's non-linearity, improving the speakers response. THAT'S the right approach to take imo.

Danny Richie

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Re: Impertinent half serious question...
« Reply #33 on: 8 Feb 2017, 08:54 pm »
I was getting some dipping in the response down low with the MMG's in my listening room. It was centered around 140Hz or so. So I tried some make shift wings to see if it would correct the dipped area, but it did not. It really had no positive effect. I think the response dip that I was getting had to be caused by a floor or room related reflection.

josh358

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Re: Impertinent half serious question...
« Reply #34 on: 8 Feb 2017, 11:27 pm »
I tried a single wing once, oriented laterally to extend the baffle. It just ended up sounding muddy. Some people put wings just near the bottom where the lowest frequency resonant sections are and where they don't interfere with the mids as much.

I've seen those dips in other MMG midbass measurements and I think you're right that they're caused by cancellation from the wall reflection of the backwave. If they were 4' out from the wall the total path length from speaker to wall and back again would correspond to one cycle at 140 Hz. And since it's a total null there's no easy way to fix it. I'm thinking that a bass trap would work, or maybe using a DWM for fill?

Danny Richie

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Re: Impertinent half serious question...
« Reply #35 on: 9 Feb 2017, 02:50 am »
I tried a single wing once, oriented laterally to extend the baffle. It just ended up sounding muddy. Some people put wings just near the bottom where the lowest frequency resonant sections are and where they don't interfere with the mids as much.

I've seen those dips in other MMG midbass measurements and I think you're right that they're caused by cancellation from the wall reflection of the backwave. If they were 4' out from the wall the total path length from speaker to wall and back again would correspond to one cycle at 140 Hz. And since it's a total null there's no easy way to fix it. I'm thinking that a bass trap would work, or maybe using a DWM for fill?

It was about six feet or more out into the room for the measurements. I didn't see it with any of our other open baffle designs. So it kind of puzzled me. And our room here at GR Research has a pretty well treated front wall.

I tried the wing extending back (90 degrees to the front baffle) and on the mid side. It just didn't change it too much.

josh358

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Re: Impertinent half serious question...
« Reply #36 on: 9 Feb 2017, 03:07 pm »
That's interesting. The curves in Dick Olsher's review also show a dip above 100 Hz, though not at precisely the same frequency.

Near field (1 meter):



Far field:



So maybe it is intrinsic to the speaker after all? You'd really need some outdoor measurements to be sure. But it seems to me it could have something to do with the acoustic equalization. The resonant sections in the left and right speakers are asymmetrical because there isn't enough diaphragm area to do complete acoustical dipole equalization in one speaker. So it may be that the left and the right speakers have dips in different and complementary locations?

aceinc

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Re: Impertinent half serious question...
« Reply #37 on: 9 Feb 2017, 05:17 pm »
Here is one person's subjective analysis when playing with wings.

http://www.integracoustics.com/MUG/MUG/tweaks/wings/mike.html

This is based on a 1.6, wonder if it holds true on an MMG?

I definitely agree (I assume that I am OP) that I lack knowledge, but that is what I am here for.

Shakeydeal

Re: Impertinent half serious question...
« Reply #38 on: 9 Feb 2017, 05:46 pm »
I found that upgrading the xover on the 1.6 went a long way towards improving bass response and definition. I'm sure on a smaller scale, the same would hold true for the MMG. It was hard to listen to a stock 1.6 after living with the upgraded pair for a while.

Shakey

Danny Richie

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Re: Impertinent half serious question...
« Reply #39 on: 9 Feb 2017, 05:53 pm »
I found that upgrading the xover on the 1.6 went a long way towards improving bass response and definition. I'm sure on a smaller scale, the same would hold true for the MMG. It was hard to listen to a stock 1.6 after living with the upgraded pair for a while.

Shakey

I felt the same way after upgrading the MMG.