***X-Otica Main & Sub Build***

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Peter J

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Re: ***X-Otica Main & Sub Build***
« Reply #240 on: 12 Oct 2016, 01:18 am »
Peter-

Outstanding. Each phase of this build/thread has been either drool-inducing or jaw-dropping, and the end result did not disappoint. Great job.

Are you running these with any sub-woofage for the bottom end?


Oh yeah, we got sub-woofage. Dual 12" open baffle per side, handling form around 100 hertz on down. See post 216 for a look. Making good use of 'em right now...listening to Morphine. And open baffle bass is probably addictive like morphine.

gregfisk

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Re: ***X-Otica Main & Sub Build***
« Reply #241 on: 12 Oct 2016, 02:45 am »

Oh yeah, we got sub-woofage. Dual 12" open baffle per side, handling form around 100 hertz on down. See post 216 for a look. Making good use of 'em right now...listening to Morphine. And open baffle bass is probably addictive like morphine.

Morphine is a great band, sorry for the loss of the lead singer. Anyway, you just made me realize since I have had my Super V's I have't even listened to any yet :duh:

By the way and once again, really nice build and I'm sure they sound fantastic :thumb:

DeeJayBump

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Re: ***X-Otica Main & Sub Build***
« Reply #242 on: 12 Oct 2016, 03:04 am »
LOL.  :D

Brain cramp on my end. Completely forgot the dual 12 OB servos and the trapezoid-ish amp stands you built and detailed in this thread.

Peter J

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Re: ***X-Otica Main & Sub Build***
« Reply #243 on: 8 Feb 2017, 06:14 pm »
The continuing saga…

Recently corresponding with Jay (Captainhemo) he reminded me that I really hadn’t done any further review of these. I’m not much for reviews as they often strike me as vehicles for feathering one’s own cap or reassurance for a decision made and subsequent desire to have others climb on board your thought process…so there!

This has been a process for me that was both eye-opening and at times discouraging.

As many here know, my thing is the physical design, woodworking and problem-solving within those arenas. The acoustic design and mechanics of crossovers and such is significantly less intriguing…that’s my reality. The other reality is that I casually listen 90% of the time, often from another room. My desire to sit and critically listen for extended periods comes infrequently. 

When I initially got these done, in the system and dialed in pretty closely, I was impressed with many aspects but, to be honest, it wasn’t the quantum leap in overall sound quality I expected. At first, I attributed it to break-in, which did make a difference, but there was still some “is this all there is?” going on for me.

I assumed that either my expectation was too high, my hearing was flawed, or had some system synergy that wasn’t right. The biggest beef I had was a mild harshness that seemed to increase with volume, I described it to someone as “cacophonous”.  Not a glaring fault, but rather a subtle aggravating annoyance. It was, however, affecting my enjoyment in the rare moments of sitting and listening, and subsequently these became fewer.

  The problem-solver in me rose up and I began to plot my course forward.  Maybe I should build the NX-Oticas, perhaps changing amps, DAC, preamp, or wire was the key to nirvana. The projected $$ outlay just grew and grew to the point that it sucked the joy from the whole damn thing. I needed some outside perspective, which I asked for in another thread, and the advice I received helped me to gain some better understanding and persevere.

For those that don’t know me, I’m suspect of anything that smells of snake oil. I try to remain objective, but for me to look twice, there must be a factual component that hits my analytical buttons. When I first built the CAPS server, one of the current hot tickets (and there were and are MANY) was a product called Fidelizer. As I understand, it works on the core operation of a computer (server), minimizing non-audio related functions. This makes sense to me. The other thing I gleaned from all the buzz was that computers are electrically noisy and this affects playback of audio files.

So I used Fidelizer, and I installed an iFi iUSB to address the issues I thought important and was a happy a camper. Well, as happy as a camper can be when afflicted with an audio obsession, anyway. Then along came Windows 10. Now, I like Win 10. I like it better than 8, which seems like a mildly horrific mess of an OS, particularly the GUI, but that’s another story. Somehow, I came to the conclusion that Fidelizer was causing dropouts within Win 10, so I quit using it…no biggie. Or so it seemed.

Enter the X-Oticas. In an effort to localize the cause of the harshness I was hearing, I eliminated the preamp and used the DAC as pre. Actually sounded a bit worse but still the harshness persisted, so preamp was deemed innocent. In the other thread I wrote of, Tubeburner drew my attention back to Fidelizer…hmmmm.  So I installed it, loaded JRiver, reinstalled preamp in system and gave it a listen.

Oh Shit! That instantly did away with the harshness I’d been hearing. I (metaphorically) pinched myself, “can this really be happening”? That little utility, really? Only two things changed; wires were moved from DAC to pre and I ran Fidelizer…that’s it!

So mark me down as a believer in “digital hash”, which I think I truly understand the meaning of now. Insert all the audiophile adjectives here, this made a remarkable difference. The expectations I originally had of the X-Oticas are fulfilled.  The high end and mids have a clarity and pureness that is really easy to listen to. The so called “listening fatigue” is absent. It’s damn near an epiphany for me. The only downside, which I mentioned earlier in the thread, is that higher resolving equipment reveals ho-hum recordings for what they are…shitty. Can’t fix that with gear, I’m afraid.

Moving forward, in an effort to further address the “computer noise” I’ll be installing a Sonore microRendu and Uptone LPS-1 power supply, which I’m looking forward to.

« Last Edit: 9 Feb 2017, 01:08 am by Peter J »

Danny Richie

Re: ***X-Otica Main & Sub Build***
« Reply #244 on: 8 Feb 2017, 07:26 pm »
Peter,

Just to follow up with your digital woos....

I know where you are coming from with that stuff. I have been through some eye opening revelations when it comes to digital playback. For a couple of years there it seemed like a new revelation was found every few weeks that just kept taking things to new levels.

So far I have found the Mac Mini to still better any and all servers. And I am not a Mac guys either. So the format is still annoying.

Then came the mods.... The switching power supply is gone. It now runs on an external 12 volt batter with C-Tek charger. The hard drive is now solid state. The RAM is maxed out with gaming RAM. And I think there was about 60,000 lines of operating code stripped out from the operating system. I also store all the music on an external hard drive.

And Man the USB cables really matter. There is a lot of differences between cables.

For playback software I have iTunes, Pure Music, SBooth's Play, and Audirvana. They all sound different.

And I am sending the digital out via I2S direct (not SPDIF out). Another big difference.

Each thing we did was very significant and just kept making a difference. And I just mentioned the major things. I am still amazed.

So before you think bits are bits and wire is wire.... You have to give this stuff a shot. You are just getting a slight taste right now. It can get even better.



bdp24

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Re: ***X-Otica Main & Sub Build***
« Reply #245 on: 8 Feb 2017, 07:51 pm »
A good tale Peter, one that reminds us all that speakers are often incorrectly blamed for any problem which sounds frequency related. Digital noise tends to "ride" on the signal sent to the amplifier and then speakers, and can sound just like a "tizzy" tweeter. The truth is, the better the speaker, the more it reveals any problems created further back in the chain. Ironically, a better speaker can make a not-so-good source sound worse!

mlundy57

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Re: ***X-Otica Main & Sub Build***
« Reply #246 on: 8 Feb 2017, 08:47 pm »
Peter,

Ive heard about Fidelizer but havn't been moved to try it. Guess i need to give it a try.

Mike

Peter J

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Re: ***X-Otica Main & Sub Build***
« Reply #247 on: 8 Feb 2017, 10:34 pm »
Peter,

Just to follow up with your digital woos....

I know where you are coming from with that stuff. I have been through some eye opening revelations when it comes to digital playback. For a couple of years there it seemed like a new revelation was found every few weeks that just kept taking things to new levels.

So far I have found the Mac Mini to still better any and all servers. And I am not a Mac guys either. So the format is still annoying.

Then came the mods.... The switching power supply is gone. It now runs on an external 12 volt batter with C-Tek charger. The hard drive is now solid state. The RAM is maxed out with gaming RAM. And I think there was about 60,000 lines of operating code stripped out from the operating system. I also store all the music on an external hard drive.

And Man the USB cables really matter. There is a lot of differences between cables.

For playback software I have iTunes, Pure Music, SBooth's Play, and Audirvana. They all sound different.

And I am sending the digital out via I2S direct (not SPDIF out). Another big difference.

Each thing we did was very significant and just kept making a difference. And I just mentioned the major things. I am still amazed.

So before you think bits are bits and wire is wire.... You have to give this stuff a shot. You are just getting a slight taste right now. It can get even better.

Danny, I don't doubt that it can get better, but my wallet does have it's limits...

One thing I have real reservations about and see happening in the audio world in general is just throwing dollars at the supposed latest and greatest widget on the assumption that it'll make things magnificently (and perhaps magically) better. I liken it to the "parts replacers" that pose as mechanics.  No fundamental understanding of systems or how individual components relate to each other, lets just add or replace things and hope for the best. And if it sucks? Well, oddly, it seems almost nothing ever sucks, which statistically doesn't make sense.  I just can't get myself to abandon reasonable evaluation of data. And of course my data pool is often what I read on forums like this, written by strangers, so that's kind of a wild card too. I don't mean to sound curmudgeonly, but I am a skeptic at heart.

Bottom line is I don't know what I don't know, but sometimes make discoveries along the way. If I had the resources to just give everything a try that I'm interested in, well, that would be a seriously fun playground and an even bigger bone pile, me thinks!

« Last Edit: 9 Feb 2017, 01:09 am by Peter J »

Peter J

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Re: ***X-Otica Main & Sub Build***
« Reply #248 on: 8 Feb 2017, 10:43 pm »
Peter,

Ive heard about Fidelizer but havn't been moved to try it. Guess i need to give it a try.

Mike

You can do it for free, and I did for a long time. Although just recently I coughed up the $69 for the pro version. The method by which it's delivered is odd, and documentation is sparse, but I kinda like the "cottage" aspect, I guess. There's much in forums, both wheat and chaff.

 I'd be interested in reading your impressions should you give it a go.

nik.d

Re: ***X-Otica Main & Sub Build***
« Reply #249 on: 9 Feb 2017, 12:53 am »
...
Ive heard about Fidelizer but havn't been moved to try it. Guess i need to give it a try.
Mike

Hi Mike,

Instead of trying optimization software + audio player, download and try the best audio player AND optimization software: XXHigEnd. It costs €72, that's only $78 these days.
Demo XXHighEnd will play between 6 and 60 minutes before automatic shutdown. Simply start it again.  Full Windows optimization is available in licensed version, of course.

I went digital somewhere back in 2008. At that time, 2 options were most interesting:
1. cic's Memory Player - as free project for complete PC optimization & player
and
2. XXHigEnd - as commercial one

Tried both ways and never regretted turning completely to XXHighEnd. Last version (2.07) is not only amazing with SQ but runs smoothly on almost average PC
like the machine I'm using right now: 'Pentium' G2030 and 8Gb of RAM - almost bottom line Intel CPU and say nowadays standard qty of RAM. Recommendation is
to have powerful CPU: processing power is welcomed, speed is anyhow minimized. As said earlier, full Windows optimization is possible in licensed version only.

Regarding D/A converters - it will work with all converters supporting either Kernel Streaming or native Windows audio service, WDM. No ASIO support.
Recommended OS is Win10 x64 Pro, version 14393.0 (all further updates disabled)

The author of Fidelizer was active on Phasure forum (home of XXHighEnd) so I know (and tried) the product long time before it went commercial.

Brds,
George

Danny Richie

Re: ***X-Otica Main & Sub Build***
« Reply #250 on: 9 Feb 2017, 02:46 am »
I was once skeptical too Peter. But for a while there I was running with a group of guys that were really working on that stuff and I got to be one of the beta testers of new everything.

I remember one day Gary Dodd and I look at each other and said what's next? How far can this go? We were just contently making big strides.  One thing after another and then another...

It was a fun time. Man, I miss him.

Captainhemo

Re: ***X-Otica Main & Sub Build***
« Reply #251 on: 9 Feb 2017, 02:53 am »
I've been using Daphile   for a bit now, if you've got a spapre pc lying around  you can simply make a boot disc or bootable USB thumb drive from the iso and boot  directly from it..... it runs a  striped down/ music, networking  drivers version of Linux.  If all you want to upsample to  say PCM 352.8  you don't need  anything special processor wise, to upsample  to DSD 256, you'll want   an i7 6700 or better ( you don't have to upsample if you don't want to).  Daphile has exellent SQ, many prefer it to HQP.  It can be a bit  finicky with regards to how your music is tagged but not    a big deal to fix up with free apps.  Once it's runing on yournetwork,  access it via  web interface at the  ip, easy  and convienent, pretty decent interface too.

It's  a free open source  program
From teh website:

Features

    Headless music server OS
    Bitperfect and gapless playback
    Extensive audio format support
    Native DSD playback up to DSD512
    PCM resolutions up to 384kHz/24bit
    High quality audio resampling including PCM to DSD conversion
    Convolution filtering for DRC and equalizer
    "Play from RAM" to minimize CPU load and disk activity during playback
    Automatic audio device configuration with multiplayer support
    CD ripping with AccurateRip™ verification, automatic metadata tagging and cover art
    Supports external file servers as music source
    Easy configuration and installation through the web interface
    WiFi hotspot support (if compatible hardware exists)
    Software update via web interface
    Network-attached storage (NAS) service
    Whole system included in about 200MB ISO-file

https://www.daphile.com/

jay

mlundy57

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Re: ***X-Otica Main & Sub Build***
« Reply #252 on: 9 Feb 2017, 02:56 am »
Hi Mike,

Instead of trying optimization software + audio player, download and try the best audio player AND optimization software: XXHigEnd. It costs €72, that's only $78 these days.
Demo XXHighEnd will play between 6 and 60 minutes before automatic shutdown. Simply start it again.  Full Windows optimization is available in licensed version, of course.

I went digital somewhere back in 2008. At that time, 2 options were most interesting:
1. cic's Memory Player - as free project for complete PC optimization & player
and
2. XXHigEnd - as commercial one

Tried both ways and never regretted turning completely to XXHighEnd. Last version (2.07) is not only amazing with SQ but runs smoothly on almost average PC
like the machine I'm using right now: 'Pentium' G2030 and 8Gb of RAM - almost bottom line Intel CPU and say nowadays standard qty of RAM. Recommendation is
to have powerful CPU: processing power is welcomed, speed is anyhow minimized. As said earlier, full Windows optimization is possible in licensed version only.

Regarding D/A converters - it will work with all converters supporting either Kernel Streaming or native Windows audio service, WDM. No ASIO support.
Recommended OS is Win10 x64 Pro, version 14393.0 (all further updates disabled)

The author of Fidelizer was active on Phasure forum (home of XXHighEnd) so I know (and tried) the product long time before it went commercial.

Brds,
George

George,

The lack of ASIO support means it won't work for me. I have quite a few DSD files, from DSD64 to DSD256. All of which require ASIO.

Thanks for the suggestion though.

My music server is a repurposed Dell CAD workstation. It has a Xeon processor, 12GB of ECC Ram (can go up to 25GB), Windows 10 professional (was originally Win 7 Pro) on an SSD, music files on a 2TB Caviar Black HDD and an SOtM sound card. Player is JRiver.

Mike

Peter J

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Re: ***X-Otica Main & Sub Build***
« Reply #253 on: 10 Feb 2017, 03:18 pm »
I'm writing this as a kinda epilog to my epic thread. I guess there's a plug here too, not only for Danny's work which I think very highly of, but also for two products that helped bring me to where I am now, which is ever so satisfied with results. Three products, I guess. Fidelizer, Sonore microRendu and Uptone Audio LPS-1. The latter two of those just installed last night. It eliminated more of the tag-along hash and added an inky background and yet more clean detail...just incredible.  I'm not one to spew superlatives, but this is as good as this system has ever sounded...really.

I gotta say I love moments like this, listening to some of my favorite music, getting goosebumps as my eyes mist up. What's the word I'm looking for? Majestic? Involving? Luscious? In the original thread where Danny introduced these speakers, I'm remembering he described the sound as beautiful. That's completely accurate, they sound beautiful. And I got to build something which I view as equally beautiful. Can't get much better than that, eh?

So in spite of the sometimes bumpy road I took to get here, I'm happy to have traveled it. And to those who vicariously traveled with me, thanks for indulging me and my eccentricity.

Captainhemo

Re: ***X-Otica Main & Sub Build***
« Reply #254 on: 10 Feb 2017, 04:49 pm »
Hey, congrats Peter, I'm glad it has worked out well  in the end, enjoy that system    :beer: 

jay

Danny Richie

Re: ***X-Otica Main & Sub Build***
« Reply #255 on: 10 Feb 2017, 04:53 pm »
Hey, post some more pictures of the completed set up when you get a chance.  :thumb:

ebag4

Re: ***X-Otica Main & Sub Build***
« Reply #256 on: 10 Feb 2017, 06:10 pm »
Congratulations Peter, as another user of the microRendu and the LPS-1, I understand where you are coming from, they made a very nice improvement for me as well.  With regard to your build, I agree, an incredible build and beautiful end product!

Best,
Ed

mlundy57

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Re: ***X-Otica Main & Sub Build***
« Reply #257 on: 2 Apr 2017, 12:32 am »


Final result


Peter,

What angle did you cut the bevel at?

Mike

Peter J

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Re: ***X-Otica Main & Sub Build***
« Reply #258 on: 2 Apr 2017, 04:21 pm »
Hi Mike, the bevel was the same as miter...45°. I never thought to try it some other way, might be worth a trial run to see what, say 30°, looks like.

Peter J

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Re: ***X-Otica Main & Sub Build***
« Reply #259 on: 2 Apr 2017, 04:38 pm »
I recently received this as a private mail and thought it might be of interest to folks endeavoring to do similar.

Quote

 I will soon be adding the No-Rez to my NX-Ottica/Triple H-frame Sub build. This time around installing No-Rez makes me a little more nervous since I will be applying it over a gloss clearcoat. On flat paint or unfinished MDF there probably is a little more wiggle room for correction.

Really like the look of your beveled/mitered finish on subs, but getting the last piece in (assume you did a long side) could be problematic. In my sub build, all 3 drivers face forward and a I will have a front grill on (most of time I assume, except for those friends who may be curious as to whats under it). Based on your experience, would you bother mitering and beveling? This question only applies to subs since there are only vertical pieces on the mains.  I see you did pose the question about adding the bevel for these.

Another technique you appeared to do which I had also considered was setting the No-Rez back from the exposed edges of bracing/sidewalls (maybe 1/8 inch?). I think this makes for a cleaner look rather than trying to cut it flush. As far a the rear edges go, did you choose to bevel the No-Rez foam (angle?) to clear the drivers and then align the No-Rez backer flush up against the baffle?

My last question has to  do with assembly order. Was all wiring in place before you installed the No-Rez? My concern there is that the wiring could possibly hang-up on the No-Rez during installation while trying to push it back into place before letting it adhere to the walls.

Any details or answers to these questions would be most appreciated.




In my case all the sides were equal so I chose to do the top piece last. I have grills on most of the time too, but they're somewhat sheer so when light is right one can see the foam. Would it be worth it to you?  suppose only you could decide. The bevel was actually my first idea, but the only way it would work and look right was with miter. I often do things just to be see if it's possible, which bites my ass every once in a while.

All wiring was done prior  to NoRez. It was the very last thing I did. It would be way harder to mount driver and fish wiring with it in place.

Back edges near drivers were square cut and 3/4" or so shy of baffle...clearance for driver on one side and wire clearance on the other. I kept it pretty simple. As I remember, I cut all 7/8" or 1" less than cabinet depth, assuming around an 1/8  +or- from front edge.

If you go this route, give yourself some wiggle room. If you look closely the miters aren't tight. I think I cut the sides 1/8" less than actual dimension. The hardest part was the last piece. I set the bottom by centering and leaving my 1/8" at front edge, this can be sort of tipped in front to back. Next the sides which can also tip in from bottom to top. Go slow and steady, the adhesive is crazy sticky.  Top last, I tried several approaches, but what seemed to work best is to sorta pre-bend the piece down in middle  keeping it away from surface as best you can. Push it to one side and get started there, pushing bend out towards opposite side. You will get your fingers on the adhesive some, but the stuff sticks so well, I don't think it matters. Several things to juggle at this point.

I dry ran it in my head and on actual parts with release paper still in place. It's fussy for sure and there were some tense moments. I'd do it again though, it that's any help.