"In-Wall" Speakers

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nrenter

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"In-Wall" Speakers
« on: 25 Jun 2012, 06:47 pm »
Yes, I know in-wall speakers are a compromise (at best)...so let's not waste time debating that.

I'm contemplating a HT setup where in-wall speakers are pretty-much a must. Would any of the GR Research line translate into an in-wall (not on-wall like the A/V-1RS) speaker? I'd be interested in something like a horizontal N3S that would snugly fit between 2 wall studs (and, yes, I know...a vertical array would be better, but my space is so small it wouldn't really matter). I'd probably be looking at a 5.1 (or 5.2) setup). Just curious. Thanks!!


srb

Re: "In-Wall" Speakers
« Reply #1 on: 25 Jun 2012, 07:37 pm »
The N3S M-130 surface-mount woofers are already slightly overlapping the Neo 3 PDR flush-mount tweeter, and I don't know that they can be overlapped any further.  The distance from outer edge to outer edge of the woofer cutouts is 15.625" and the distance between 16" O.C. studs is ~14.5".

Doesn't seem like it could fit horizontally unless you somehow have wider stud spacing or could cut out a section of one of the studs.

Steve

nrenter

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Re: "In-Wall" Speakers
« Reply #2 on: 25 Jun 2012, 08:58 pm »
Maybe it would have to be a N2X derived design (if it's possible / practical). I envision the speaker being basically a front baffle that's tightly screwed into the studs (with the back of the drivers fitting into a hole in the drywall. Some sort of gasket between the back of the baffle and the drywall.

Like I said, I'm exploring my in-wall options, and wanted some get some thoughts. My gut says to just go with something like a Polk RC85i and be done with it, as I'm not looking for great, just pretty good.

HT cOz

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Re: "In-Wall" Speakers
« Reply #3 on: 26 Jun 2012, 01:27 am »
Parts Express makes an inwall diy kit. Buy the kit and AV1-RS and go for it. The AV1-RS will good enough as an inwall.

S Clark

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Re: "In-Wall" Speakers
« Reply #4 on: 26 Jun 2012, 03:51 am »
I think that all of Danny's box speaker designs build in baffle loss compensation for lower frequencies. (The AVR-1S may be the exception)  Building it into a wall should result in a 3-6 dB gain at the compensated frequency down.  You can do it, but you will most likely have a sizable mid bass peak.  That said, I'd suspect that the AVR-1 built into the wall would still sound better than the Parts Express kit. 

HT cOz

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Re: "In-Wall" Speakers
« Reply #5 on: 26 Jun 2012, 03:56 am »
I think that all of Danny's box speaker designs build in baffle loss compensation for lower frequencies. (The AVR-1S may be the exception)  Building it into a wall should result in a 3-6 dB gain at the compensated frequency down.  You can do it, but you will most likely have a sizable mid bass peak.  That said, I'd suspect that the AVR-1 built into the wall would still sound better than the Parts Express kit.

This is true and why the only real choice is the AV1-RS.  Notice how efficient it is with only two drivers, that is because it doesn't have any baffle loss compensation.  I think your biggest issue is that it needs a box behind it or you might bottom out the driver.  You could fit that in the wall as well.  Just depends how diy you want to get!

Danny Richie

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Re: "In-Wall" Speakers
« Reply #6 on: 26 Jun 2012, 03:35 pm »
I'd have to design a speaker just for that application. Thus far I have not.

How about something like this: http://www.tb-speaker.com/detail/1208_03/iwp462c.htm

I think I have a couple of pairs of them around here somewhere.

nickd

Re: "In-Wall" Speakers
« Reply #7 on: 26 Jun 2012, 04:00 pm »
No Pressure Danny, :lol:

The market is HUGE for good inwalls. I currently use 3 ea. RBH 6 1/2" MTM in-walls behind my screen. You can buy cabinets (and i did) made from 1/2 inch MDF that you put between studs in the wall. Cover them with drywall and then the baffle just screws in to the cabinet. They sound better than they should. Parts quality is not quite up to GR standards. I would change them out in a flash if you design a similar kit. I'll supply a box and baffle if it will help speed the design process. You would Just need to mount it in a sheet of plywood or drywall to take measurements.

If the Neo3 tweeter and 2 ea your woofers MTM can have a nice smooth response and cross over to a servo sub at 80hz I'm in for 3 Kits. Any one else interested in that type of Kit?   

Danny Richie

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Re: "In-Wall" Speakers
« Reply #8 on: 26 Jun 2012, 04:27 pm »
Quote
You would Just need to mount it in a sheet of plywood or drywall to take measurements.

Yep, that is the real kicker right there.

Plus the fact that air space is tight.

Another problem is that sheet rock flexes and breaks easily. So an internal box must be used within the studs. The box would have to be flush with the studs but then the face of the speaker has to be flush with the sheet rock. The box would have to go almost from the floor to the ceiling to allow for enough air space for a pair of woofers.

That's a pretty big install.


HT cOz

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Re: "In-Wall" Speakers
« Reply #9 on: 26 Jun 2012, 04:32 pm »

HT cOz

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Re: "In-Wall" Speakers
« Reply #10 on: 26 Jun 2012, 05:30 pm »
Why would you need a pair of woofers?  I thought the tweeter was not efficient enough to keep up with a pair of woofers in an inwall application? 

Thanks,
Robert


Yep, that is the real kicker right there.

Plus the fact that air space is tight.

Another problem is that sheet rock flexes and breaks easily. So an internal box must be used within the studs. The box would have to be flush with the studs but then the face of the speaker has to be flush with the sheet rock. The box would have to go almost from the floor to the ceiling to allow for enough air space for a pair of woofers.

That's a pretty big install.

Danny Richie

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Re: "In-Wall" Speakers
« Reply #11 on: 26 Jun 2012, 06:18 pm »
Why would you need a pair of woofers?  I thought the tweeter was not efficient enough to keep up with a pair of woofers in an inwall application? 

Thanks,
Robert

It depends on the tweeter.

The Neo 3 pdr is about 93db and the Peerless tweeter used in the X Series Encore line is 94db.

Racer X

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Re: "In-Wall" Speakers
« Reply #12 on: 26 Jun 2012, 06:42 pm »
What about a box that fit between the studs and extended past The wall three to  four inches like a onwall speaker that would stil come out about the same distance from the wall as a wallmount tv. If you were able to get the box say fourteen inches wide and say seven and half inches deep how long would it have to be to get the air volume for a n 3 style speaker two woofers and a neo 3.

nrenter

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Re: "In-Wall" Speakers
« Reply #13 on: 20 Jul 2012, 09:30 pm »
...and how would the design change if you specified the speaker must be used with Audyssey MultEQ XT32 digital room correction? Would that requirement change your approach to the crossover such that it only enabled the tweeter / woofer to reproduce their ideal frequency ranges (rather than also including padding and notch filtering)?

Danny Richie

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Re: "In-Wall" Speakers
« Reply #14 on: 21 Jul 2012, 12:23 am »
What about a box that fit between the studs and extended past The wall three to  four inches like a onwall speaker that would stil come out about the same distance from the wall as a wallmount tv. If you were able to get the box say fourteen inches wide and say seven and half inches deep how long would it have to be to get the air volume for a n 3 style speaker two woofers and a neo 3.

That would help.

I could figure something out that would allow a floor to ear level design (like and N3 in size) that would hit an ideal sealed box volume.

...and how would the design change if you specified the speaker must be used with Audyssey MultEQ XT32 digital room correction? Would that requirement change your approach to the crossover such that it only enabled the tweeter / woofer to reproduce their ideal frequency ranges (rather than also including padding and notch filtering)?

I don't advise using digital room correction. They really only have the ability to correct for one point in space (wherever you took the measurements from). Move the mic over a foot and you might as well start all over. If there is really a room related problem you are really not going to fix it that way. If you are only adjusting below 200Hz or so then there is some good value there. But that's pretty much it.

If I designed a speaker that needed a bunch of digital correction then it wouldn't be much good to anyone not using it. Designing a speaker that produces an accurate response is not that hard. So no need for any of that stuff if the speakers are well designed.

And room issues need to be solved by correcting the real problem. That's what room treatment is for.

yakman2000

"In-Wall" Speakers, redux
« Reply #15 on: 7 Jan 2014, 09:27 pm »

Continuing the conversation on in-wall.

Also requested by Mrs to build in wall speakers (for the office). 

Assuming X-Ls encore drives, the idea would be to produce a 2.1 or 3.1 system. The sub (probably an x-sub) would be outboard, under the desk.

Would it help if the inwall  box was thick steel, aluminum  or perhaps carbon fibre composite?  Assuming it was rigidly attached to the studs I would expect it would not resonate any worse than wood, and allow the whole 14.5x3.75 inch column, or is that an incorrect?  Of course the drivers would mount on a wood panel which would be screwed onto captive nuts in the steel part. 

Danny Richie

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Re: "In-Wall" Speakers
« Reply #16 on: 7 Jan 2014, 10:49 pm »
There are several problems with mounting them in the wall. To do so and do it right then there needs to be a sealed or ported enclosure that fits inside the suds. If only a face plate is used then the air space varies from one wall to the next, and the woofers will flex and resonate sheet rock like a passive radiator.

Making even half of a cubic foot of sealed air space gets pretty large when all you have is about 3" or less of depth. Making a 1 cubic foot ported box would mean in insert over 4 feet tall to get you enough air space.