Acoustic Pannels

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bonsai

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Acoustic Pannels
« on: 29 Jul 2015, 04:22 pm »
Hi,

I like the acoustic pannels on the back wall in this photo.  Anyone know where to get these?


Big Red Machine


bonsai

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Re: Acoustic Pannels
« Reply #2 on: 29 Jul 2015, 06:31 pm »
Lots of good options on that link for sure.  I'm not seeing that pattern on that site however.

JLM

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Re: Acoustic Pannels
« Reply #3 on: 29 Jul 2015, 07:35 pm »
Look nice, but what are they made of?  Dense/rigid materials reflect and so can diffuse if a random variation of depths are used, but those panels can get heavy quickly.  Less dense materials (if the right material) can absorb a wide range of frequencies if thick enough.

Design isn't properly shaped to diffuse a range of frequencies even if the material is dense. 

If foam it doesn't appear to be uniformly thick enough to be very effective as absorbers (even if made of a good material).

Conventional wisdom uses diffusion on side walls and absorption on front/back walls and in corners (all as needed).  2 - 4 inch thick Owens/Corning 703 fiberglass panels are good for absorption.  For diffusers search for "quadratic" (good mathematical expression for randomness) and note that the practical diffusion frequency limits is normally considered 1,000 - 20,000 Hz.

timind

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Re: Acoustic Pannels
« Reply #4 on: 29 Jul 2015, 10:14 pm »
These look pretty close http://www.nextacoustics.com/2-inch-soundtrax-lg-acoustical-foam-half-pack/
I purchased some of their Cornerblox a while back. Very efficient to deal with.

dBe

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Re: Acoustic Pannels
« Reply #5 on: 30 Jul 2015, 01:00 am »
Just another variation on the open cell foam whose craze began with Sonex back in the original StarTrek days in a galaxy far, far away.  I may be mixing the Enterprise with the Force here.   It looked hi-tech but frankly sucked compared to 2" 703 or properly mounted 1.5" ductboard with an FSK backing mounted 1" off of the wall.

Look at Next Acoustics (this product), Sonex,  Aurelex, Acoustical Solutions, The Foam Factory, Foam by Mail or a zillion others for this type of product.

Looks good, though.

jriggy

Re: Acoustic Pannels
« Reply #6 on: 30 Jul 2015, 02:27 am »
So, what do you guys think about the model D diffuser BRM linked ?
Sure looks cool!
Will it perform as well as a skyline diffusor. I'm guessing that's its closest cousin.

dBe

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Re: Acoustic Pannels
« Reply #7 on: 30 Jul 2015, 02:48 am »
So, what do you guys think about the model D diffuser BRM linked ?
Sure looks cool!
Will it perform as well as a skyline diffusor. I'm guessing that's its closest cousin.
It probably works pretty good, but is butt ugly.  It reminds me of ripple tank experiments we did back in the 80s...

JLM

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Re: Acoustic Pannels
« Reply #8 on: 30 Jul 2015, 11:23 am »
A quick scan of the model D diffuser makes me wonder:

- undefined "thermoplastic" material (can a 1 pound per square foot material really be acoustically opaque enough to reflect sound?) seriously doubt it

- the stated bandwidth is 599 - 16,000 Hz yet the "true diffuse" frequencies is specified as a more believable 1195 - 5975 Hz, what does any of this really mean?  no industry standard test results

- if you look at the panel the nominal depth provides a variation of roughly 1 inch which equates to the wavelength of 13,000 Hz, so the geometry would indicate maximum effectiveness around that frequency

- to be effective diffusers must have a depth that matches the sound wave length (sound travels at 13,000 inches per second through air, so a 1000 Hz sound wave is 13 inches long) which is why diffusors have practical limits and you don't see diffusers rated to say 100 Hz and why good diffusers must have a wide variety of random depths

- the skyline diffuser should be vastly superior (surely acoustically opaque, better performance as being designed to industry standard quadratic variations for much improved function, and can be DIY'd), but heavy in large sheets.  I looked into building my own, pre-painting the wooden blocks in various colors (each depth the same color), but I'm no carpenter.

jriggy

Re: Acoustic Pannels
« Reply #9 on: 30 Jul 2015, 01:54 pm »
JLM,

Thanks for the breakdown!

Dave,

Well, theres no accounting for tastes! I like them. But I can see how they would not work in some environments. If your home or listening environment is filled with mauve colored furniture, lace doilies and ruffled curtains around the room, then yeah, this look would not be welcome in there. BUT if you have a more modern look with solid, bold or sophisticated colors with corresponding modern or even mid-centurey modern furniture, these "ripple pool" panels hanging on the wall, like in the pics, would be quite cool looking, IMO... But again, if your house looks like my Grandmothers did, they would be out of place.


timind

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Re: Acoustic Pannels
« Reply #10 on: 30 Jul 2015, 02:26 pm »
Another thing to remember about diffusers is they are most effective when they are placed a minimum of 6-8 feet from the listening position. I was going to get some diffusers to put on the wall behind my listening chair but decided against it after researching them. My chair is only 3-4 feet from the rear wall so I went with absorption instead.

usp1

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Re: Acoustic Pannels
« Reply #11 on: 30 Jul 2015, 02:46 pm »
http://www.acousticsfirst.com/diffuser-art-diffusor-model-d.htm

In several of their photographs they show the diffusors being used on a wall with just above a sofa. Does that work?

SteveRB

Re: Acoustic Pannels
« Reply #12 on: 30 Jul 2015, 04:45 pm »
You will 'hear' any diffusion or absorption that it too close to your ears. The size and shape of your room combined with the speakers will determine what that distance is, BUT I would be sceptical of any one who has these treatment so close to the sofa/ listening position.

When i say 'hear' the treatment, I meant the eq /response you hear will be greatly swung by the effect of the treatment. If it is a thin absorber: the sound will be dull. If it is a low band width diffusor the upper mids will be heavy and smeared.

In a small room with limited options, I have found a little treatment on the front wall is all that is needed to help. Bonus if you can treat first reflections. Adding too much brings negative returns.

Big Red Machine

Re: Acoustic Pannels
« Reply #13 on: 30 Jul 2015, 05:25 pm »
Another thing to remember about diffusers is they are most effective when they are placed a minimum of 6-8 feet from the listening position. I was going to get some diffusers to put on the wall behind my listening chair but decided against it after researching them. My chair is only 3-4 feet from the rear wall so I went with absorption instead.

Hey Tim. I have heard this before as well, but whoever "they" are, they cannot be right every time.  I love my diffusion because it really opens up my space on certain tracks to a hall effect. Not surround sound like with sound coming from the rear, but a large soundstage can result in narrow rooms (12 to 13 ft). I say give it a try folks. I've been the overdamped route before and hands down diffusion is preferable. Certainly not for bass trapping, and very small rooms could result in obnoxiousness.

dBe

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Re: Acoustic Pannels
« Reply #14 on: 30 Jul 2015, 11:45 pm »
Dave,

Well, theres no accounting for tastes! I like them. But I can see how they would not work in some environments. If your home or listening environment is filled with mauve colored furniture, lace doilies and ruffled curtains around the room, then yeah, this look would not be welcome in there. BUT if you have a more modern look with solid, bold or sophisticated colors with corresponding modern or even mid-centurey modern furniture, these "ripple pool" panels hanging on the wall, like in the pics, would be quite cool looking, IMO... But again, if your house looks like my Grandmothers did, they would be out of place.
:thumb:  Oh, man.  Gayle would shoot me in the head if I brought them in to our house.  I tried some stuff like this that was technically very good, but looks ... uhm, no.  To each, his own.  Blondes, brunettes, redheads or raven tressed beauties?  Me I love a grey headed lady.

Dude: I'm 67.  I wouldn't like grannies house either.  I'm more of an industrial/techno look.  Those just look like the inside of a tomato to me, you know: not quite done.

dBe

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Re: Acoustic Pannels
« Reply #15 on: 30 Jul 2015, 11:56 pm »
A quick scan of the model D diffuser makes me wonder:

- undefined "thermoplastic" material (can a 1 pound per square foot material really be acoustically opaque enough to reflect sound?) seriously doubt it

- the stated bandwidth is 599 - 16,000 Hz yet the "true diffuse" frequencies is specified as a more believable 1195 - 5975 Hz, what does any of this really mean?  no industry standard test results

- if you look at the panel the nominal depth provides a variation of roughly 1 inch which equates to the wavelength of 13,000 Hz, so the geometry would indicate maximum effectiveness around that frequency

- to be effective diffusers must have a depth that matches the sound wave length (sound travels at 13,000 inches per second through air, so a 1000 Hz sound wave is 13 inches long) which is why diffusors have practical limits and you don't see diffusers rated to say 100 Hz and why good diffusers must have a wide variety of random depths

- the skyline diffuser should be vastly superior (surely acoustically opaque, better performance as being designed to industry standard quadratic variations for much improved function, and can be DIY'd), but heavy in large sheets.  I looked into building my own, pre-painting the wooden blocks in various colors (each depth the same color), but I'm no carpenter.
To my knowledge this is the only ISO Spec for testing diffusers. 

"ISO 17497-1:2004 specifies a method of measuring the random-incidence scattering coefficient of surfaces as caused by surface roughness. The measurements are made in a reverberation room, either in full scale or on a physical scale model. The measurement results can be used to describe how much the sound reflection from a surface deviates from a specular reflection. The results obtained can be used for comparison purposes and for design calculations with respect to room acoustics and noise control.

The method is not intended for characterizing the spatial uniformity of the scattering from a surface."

Last time I talked to Bob Hodas he told me that getting a really consistent measurement form diffusers is hard.

www.bobhodas.com

jk@home

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Re: Acoustic Pannels
« Reply #16 on: 31 Jul 2015, 12:48 am »
The Saturn diffusers are said to work at close up levels (if you believe polys are diffusers). Not that they look any better, IMHO.

http://www.soundcontrolroom.com/shop/saturn-polycylindrical-diffusor