Help me choose tube setup

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Bill Baker

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Re: Help me choose tube setup
« Reply #20 on: 13 Oct 2015, 08:26 pm »
The way I understood his post was that he wanted to listen to solid state for HT and then just a tube amp for music. I had to read it over again to make sure he wasn't referring to biamping.

Cliff B.

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Re: Help me choose tube setup
« Reply #21 on: 13 Oct 2015, 08:34 pm »
The way I understood his post was that he wanted to listen to solid state for HT and then just a tube amp for music. I had to read it over again to make sure he wasn't referring to biamping.
None of my speakers have extra terminals for biamping, so that is not an option. The idea was just to have one amp turned on at a time. I assumed that the speaker wires connected to the "turned off" amp would just be dead ends and would not hurt anything, but you are telling me that this can't be done, correct?
Is there any kind of speaker wire switch that would not degrade the sound quality?

undertow

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Re: Help me choose tube setup
« Reply #22 on: 13 Oct 2015, 08:36 pm »
He specifically asked one amp for HT and separate tube amp for music. No you cannot have 2 power amps shorted together into the same speakers onto the same binding posts. A switching device that cuts the circuit is needed.

Even if you did have one amp turned off but still hooked to the speaker with cables feeding to the active amp not only will it sound like crap because you now have a huge parallel resistance from the turned off amp dragging down the active amp speaker combo, but if you did accidentally turn both amps on at the same time it would at a minimum blow your Rail fuses in both amps, and maybe even more severe damage than that.

Hugh

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Re: Help me choose tube setup
« Reply #23 on: 13 Oct 2015, 08:38 pm »
What HE said.

He specifically asked one amp for HT and separate tube amp for music. No you cannot have 2 power amps shorted together into the same speakers onto the same binding posts. A switching device that cuts the circuit is needed.

Even if you did have one amp turned off but still hooked to the speaker with cables feeding to the active amp not only will it sound like crap because you now have a huge parallel resistance from the turned off amp dragging down the active amp speaker combo, but if you did accidentally turn both amps on at the same time it would at a minimum blow your Rail fuses in both amps, and maybe even more severe damage than that.

Cliff B.

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Re: Help me choose tube setup
« Reply #24 on: 13 Oct 2015, 10:45 pm »
I've noticed something interesting about this forum that I have not seen on other forums. The replies given by participants actually provide informative, useful information. Thank You!
Are there speaker wire switches that are totally transparent, causing no harm to the audio signal?

mlundy57

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Re: Help me choose tube setup
« Reply #25 on: 13 Oct 2015, 11:17 pm »
I've noticed something interesting about this forum that I have not seen on other forums. The replies given by participants actually provide informative, useful information. Thank You!
Are there speaker wire switches that are totally transparent, causing no harm to the audio signal?

You will find that same spirit on all the different circles here on AC.  :thumb:

I don't know about the switches. I asked this same question on one of the industry circles here awhile back and got the same answer you did so I switch speaker wires back and forth between my stereo system and my AVR for music and HT respectively.

To prevent accidentally turning on the wrong amp (the one not connected to the speakers) and creating maximum smoke, I am ordering a couple of 8 Ohm dummy Loads.

http://www.parts-express.com/8-ohm-100w-non-inductive-dummy-load-resistor--019-020

I will build small boxes with speaker binding posts for these.  Each box will be set close to a speaker. Whichever pair of speaker cables is not connected to the speakers will be connected to the dummy load. That way if I do accidentally turn on the wrong amp I won't break anything.

That's the theory at any rate.

Mike




SteveFord

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Re: Help me choose tube setup
« Reply #26 on: 13 Oct 2015, 11:32 pm »
I don't know the answer to the switching device but I poked around a bunch of various forums before deciding to make Audio Circle "home".
We're also really good at helping people spend their money on expensive electronics enrich their lives through better sound reproduction in the home! :D

4Play

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Re: Help me choose tube setup
« Reply #27 on: 14 Oct 2015, 12:18 am »
Cliff B... First, you need a pair of speakers that are 90dB or higher. You do not need a very powerful amp to get the results you are looking for, i.e. the holographic sound.

My listening room is 11 Ft wide x 14 Ft long x 8 Ft ceiling. The long wall opens into the kitchen/dining area. I alternate between solid state and tubes in my audio system. I have a Jolida JD-202BRC tube integrated amplifier that puts out 40WPC and a pair of Focal 806V bookshelf speakers with Focal S-700 stands. This combination produced exactly what you are looking for. For the first time in my life, I experienced a holographic 3D texture in SQ. This is an excerpt from Focal regarding the 806V
Quote
An Ingenious Solution for Common Driver Problems:
How do you make a midrange/woofer that's both low mass and rigid, so that it boasts increased efficiency, enhanced excursion control, and low mass? The easy explanation resides with Focal's polyglass membrane, which consists of a cellulose fiber cone powder-coated with a minuscule layer of microscopic silica micro-glass beads. The latter add rigidity without adding mass. During testing, Focal discovered that the untreated fiber cone sounds too dark on the upper registers of string instruments such as violins. Sticklers for perfection, the company devised the power-coat stage, which stores the energy and again dismisses any need to cut the energies back in the crossover. Indeed, the 806 V's 4th order/24dB per octave filter-only crossover provides complete musical transparency and three-dimensional sonic reproduction. Drivers are kept in a range where they are optimized for lowest distortion, meaning there aren't any suckouts or dynamics losses. Better still, since amplifiers look at the 806 Vs like a piece of cake, you don't need powerhouse electronics to drive these amazingly efficient loudspeakers.

You can get the same outcome you are looking for. I know that if you purchase a Jolida tube integrated amp and a pair of Focal speakers, you will achieve your goal. You can buy a new Jolida and a new pair of Focal speakers within your budget. You could upgrade to a bigger amp and bigger speakers, and you will still be within your budget. I bought my Focals from Music Direct. They give you a 60 day home trial for you to listen to them in your system. If you're not satisfied, they will send you another pair plus difference, or they will refund your money.

I hope this helps in your decision.

mlundy57

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Re: Help me choose tube setup
« Reply #28 on: 14 Oct 2015, 12:54 am »
I don't know the answer to the switching device but I poked around a bunch of various forums before deciding to make Audio Circle "home".
We're also really good at helping people spend their money on expensive electronics enrich their lives through better sound reproduction in the home! :D

Is that it huh  :o I knew there was a reason I needed to stay out of the trading post  :nono:

I was mentioning last night how I just finished building two pairs of speakers for folks then promptly turned around and spent everything I made (and then some) on new to me audio gear.

Oh well, it is a sickness I'm told  :dunno:

sebrof

Re: Help me choose tube setup
« Reply #29 on: 14 Oct 2015, 07:54 am »
IME you don't get lush, glorious tube sound by dropping tube electronics into a system.
You get it by having tube electronics and appropriately matched speakers along with excellent sources and a good room.
IOW - What you heard and what your wife fell in love with was a well matched system, not the tube amps.

I do not believe your speakers lend themselves to performing ideally with any tube amplifier.
A tube preamp to SS amp with those speakers may be worth investigating.

btw: I run a biamped system with 2A3 SET on the tweeters and PP EL34s on the woofer/mids. I love tubes. But I think you can get just as good sound with a SS amp and appropriately matched speakers as well.
Just my 2 cents is all.

avta

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Re: Help me choose tube setup
« Reply #30 on: 14 Oct 2015, 07:55 pm »
Hello Cliff. I think what you heard at RMAF was a very good system. It happened to be tubed. I checked with Zesto and they told me their amps were mated with Kharma speakers costing about $37,000. I don't think it is necessary to use tubes or solid state components to get good sound. What is needed are good components. What one gets is often determined by their budget. I'm certain that within your budget you would be able to get reasonably good sound with either tubes or solid state components. I would encourage you to look at some of the newer technologies that are solid state. Nuprime (http://www.nuprimeaudio.com ) the old Nuforce,  has recently come out with some very interesting products particularly their IDA 8 and IDA 16. These are complete units in that they contain dacs, preamps and amps. If you budget would allow, or if your are just curious, you should certainly hear one of the Devialet Expert models. They too are all inclusive. The Devialet's have received some rave reviews by professional reviewers. My own bias would be to get the best speakers you can afford then try to match them as best you can. Amp and dac technology is changing rapidly. BTW I have no connection with either of these companies. Good luck. Keep posting as I'm sure you will get lots of ideas.

jsm71

Re: Help me choose tube setup
« Reply #31 on: 16 Oct 2015, 07:51 pm »
Cliff, I'll throw my 2 cents in as a prior high power SS setup guy.  I now run a 40 watt Decware tube amp and Cary tube preamp with quality NOS tubes.  I run this against 87dB hybrid electrostatic speakers which are an easy load for this setup.  Volume is not an issue.

I will NEVER so back to SS.  Tubes baby!!!  My ESL speakers are in no way a contributor to the type of sound you are describing.  They simply allow it to shine through.  Liquid transparency is how I describe it.  Not at all mushy, just spooky real.  I recommend as others have suggested finding speakers first that are either higher efficiency or an easy load that you can run at 8 ohms that you like the overall sound.

Lots of good tube combinations out there that can work and be well under 10 or even $5k if you can go low enough on the power requirements.  Good luck with your search.  BTW, I'm also 98% vinyl in my listening even though I do have a SACD/CD player in the rack.

harri009

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Re: Help me choose tube setup
« Reply #32 on: 21 Nov 2015, 08:42 pm »
Cliff I am running the full zesto stack with the Eros mono blocks and it is absolutely wonderful.. I have tried LOTS of gear over the years and the zesto's really are special.  I am using them with a pair of Magnepan 3.7's and I have not had any problems with power  8).  The zesto stuff is the quietest tube gear I have heard, its a completely black background with the magnepans. 

full disclosure: I am a dealer.