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Other Stuff => Archived Manufacturer Circles => Abbingdon Music Research / iFi => Topic started by: Tyson on 22 Jan 2017, 05:12 pm

Title: Tyson's iFi iTube2 Review
Post by: Tyson on 22 Jan 2017, 05:12 pm
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=156708)

This is my 2nd review of an iFi product in as many months.  And will be my last for a while.  Last month I reviewed the Micro iDSD Black.  It was a great piece, but in the end I preferred the presentation if the iDSD Silver, which I already owned. 

Spoiler Alert
I sent the iDSD Black on to the next person to review, but the iTube2 will have to be pried out of my cold, dead hands before you will get it out of my system.  Where I ‘liked and respected’ the iDSD Black, I absolutely freaking love the iTube2.  You might be asking yourself "Hmmm, should I try out the iTube2?" and my answer is "Do you have a system that makes sound?  Then yes, you should try out the iTube2."  IMO the iTube2 will help out with the vast majority of systems.  Why?  Well, I'm glad you asked.

Your System is Shitty
I'm sorry but it is.  You might not think it is, but you are wrong.  I include myself in that statement.  That's a bold statement, but unless you are a part of the very small minority of audiophiles, it's true.  Why?  Because most of us pursue systems that are "true to the source" and that "reproduces the recording with as much fidelity as possible".  That is a trap.  I've been an audiophile for more than 20 years and I also fell into this trap. 

Because Recordings are Shitty
It seems so logical and obvious to want a system that's as close to "straight wire with gain" as possible.  But as someone that attends live performances of real instruments unamplified (in fact I saw a performance of Schubert's string quintet just last night), AND as someone that has over 8000 hirez recordings (including a massive number of DSD recordings) I can say this with certainty - recordings suck.  All of them.  Yes, even the "good" recordings.  They don't capture correctly how instruments and music sounds in real life.  So any system that merely reproduces the recording will never be satisfying.  Which is why you see audiophiles constantly "upgrading".  They are always searching for that next thing that will finally make their system fully satisfying.  But, to quote Indiana Jones "They are digging in the wrong place!"  Haha.

The Root of the Problem and How to Fix It
The main problem is that during the recording process itself, even order harmonics are stripped out.  Unless the recording was done using tube equipment.  Which is why even ‘great’ recordings are more edgy and less emotionally engaging than attending the performance in real life.  So, if even order harmonics are stripped out, how do we fix that?  Easy, use tube equipment.  And the closer you can use tube equipment to your source, the more impact it has.

(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=156707)

Finally I Talk About the iTube2
If you don't want to replace your existing gear then just insert the iTube2 between your DAC and Preamp (or whatever your source is).  It connects with regular old analog RCA connectors.  The iTube2 adds the tonal richness and removes the shittiness that you never even realized was there in the first place.  You keep the goodness of your existing equipment while fixing the core problem that modern recordings represent.  Finally, you are digging in the right place! 

What About All Those Switches?
Putting the iTube2 into your system gets you 95% of the improvement possible.  Using the switches lets you dial in that last 5%.  Try them out, see what you like best.  Which will you like best?  Hell if I know.  Use your own damn ears and trust them (for once).  For me, I have it hooked into a system that does both headphone and speaker duty.  For ME, I use the Triode mode with nothing else enabled for speaker use, and I use the neutral tube (middle position on the switch) and the 3D 30 degree Plus setting (top position) for headphones.  Is that the best settings for you?  How should I know?  Try it out and make your own judgements!

Technical Info
After going to RMAF for 10 years and having every single manufacturer sit there and talk about the magic parts/circuit/design/whatever, here’s how I feel about technical specs:

(https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/47/153603564_7281ad0588.jpg)

Anyway, here’s what iFi says about the iTube2:
Features/Technologies
•   High-end Direct Tube Buffer/High-End Direct Pre-amplifier
•   Selectable tube sound signature (SET / Push-Pull / Classic)
•   All-new 3D Holographic+® for Loudspeakers matrix system
•   All-new XBass+® for Loudspeakers matrix system
•   Pure analogue volume control
•   Ultra-low Total Harmonic Distortion (THD): <0.009% (Tube+ off)
•   0dB or 9dB selectable gain
•   Reference class parts quality from ELNA Silmic to C0G capacitors
•   iPower (15V) included, ‘quieter than battery’ power supply

Final Thoughts
Inline tube gear has been around for a while.  I’ve even owned some in the past, the Musical Fidelity X-Tube to be precise.  It sucked.  Most of them seem to suck.  Because they caused a loss of resolution even while improving tonality.  The iTube2 does not suck.  It loses no resolution and still gives you the magic of tubes.  Even if you already have tubes in your system (like I do), you should still try it.  It seems to work, not by adding goodness to the signal, but rather by removing shittiness from it.  It doesn’t make your system more true to the recording.  It makes your system more true to real life. 
Title: Re: Tyson's iFi iTube2 Review
Post by: witchdoctor on 22 Jan 2017, 05:38 pm
Hey Tyson, I like the conviction in your post. If you want to find a treasure trove of live recordings that were recorded on tube gear try concertvault.com.

I have previously used the MF X-10D Tube buffer and found once I upgraded my Dac it didn't add anything special. I will check out the itube but what about an HDMI connection? Please check this out-

http://aftermasterpro.com/

Title: Re: Tyson's iFi iTube2 Review
Post by: witchdoctor on 22 Jan 2017, 05:52 pm
BTW, how would this work on a digital cable if you don't use RCA's? I run a digital cable from my Asus Xonar U7 soundcard to my Marantz 7702 processor. Thanks
Title: Re: Tyson's iFi iTube2 Review
Post by: Tyson on 22 Jan 2017, 09:30 pm
Hey Tyson, I like the conviction in your post. If you want to find a treasure trove of live recordings that were recorded on tube gear try concertvault.com.

I have previously used the MF X-10D Tube buffer and found once I upgraded my Dac it didn't add anything special. I will check out the itube but what about an HDMI connection? Please check this out-

http://aftermasterpro.com/



Thanks for the link to those recordings, that looks cool.  But I think it misses my main point - I don't want to buy a bunch of new recordings to make my system sound better.  I want my system to make my existing recordings sound great.  The iTube2 is a step in that direction.  Also, it's analog only, so won't work with HDMI or digital cables/connections. 
Title: Re: Tyson's iFi iTube2 Review
Post by: witchdoctor on 22 Jan 2017, 09:35 pm
Thanks for the link to those recordings, that looks cool.  But I think it misses my main point - I don't want to buy a bunch of new recordings to make my system sound better.  I want my system to make my existing recordings sound great.  The iTube2 is a step in that direction.  Also, it's analog only, so won't work with HDMI or digital cables/connections.

Sure, looks like I can use it in my desktop system.Thanks.
Title: Re: Tyson's iFi iTube2 Review
Post by: Tomy2Tone on 22 Jan 2017, 09:51 pm
Any idea when this will be available? Don't see it listed for sale anywhere atm.
Title: Re: Tyson's iFi iTube2 Review
Post by: Pez on 22 Jan 2017, 10:15 pm
Any idea when this will be available? Don't see it listed for sale anywhere atm.

Tyson thanks for the review!!! I don't think I've ever seen YOU like anything this much.  :lol: Right now iTube2 isn't available widely. It can be purchased at www.audio46.com and soon will be available on more sites.  :thumb:
Title: Re: Tyson's iFi iTube2 Review
Post by: Tyson on 22 Jan 2017, 10:26 pm
Tyson thanks for the review!!! I don't think I've ever seen YOU like anything this much.  :lol: Right now iTube2 isn't available widely. It can be purchased at www.audio46.com and soon will be available on more sites.  :thumb:

Haha, that's true.  I do very few reviews of anything because most gear is just 'meh' sounding to me.  It's rare that something actually impresses me.  I think those 10 years of doing show coverage at RMAF have kind of jaded me  :o  :lol:
Title: Re: Tyson's iFi iTube2 Review
Post by: witchdoctor on 22 Jan 2017, 10:46 pm
Haha, that's true.  I do very few reviews of anything because most gear is just 'meh' sounding to me.  It's rare that something actually impresses me.  I think those 10 years of doing show coverage at RMAF have kind of jaded me  :o  :lol:

If I remember correctly you used to give props to Wayne's gear at Bolder Cable. Is he well?
Title: Re: Tyson's iFi iTube2 Review
Post by: Tyson on 22 Jan 2017, 10:54 pm
If I remember correctly you used to give props to Wayne's gear at Bolder Cable. Is he well?

Yep, loved his stuff.  Still use a his power filters, power cords and interconnects in my system today.  As good as Wayne was at audio stuff, he was even better as a brewmaster.  That's what he's doing nowadays, and very successfully. 
Title: Re: Tyson's iFi iTube2 Review
Post by: S Clark on 22 Jan 2017, 11:25 pm
Quite an endorsement!  I think this is more of a rave than your opinion of Danny's Super7 speakers, and I know how incredible those are/were. 
Title: Re: Tyson's iFi iTube2 Review
Post by: FullRangeMan on 22 Jan 2017, 11:43 pm
Gorgeous video on the site, congratulations.
The 3D is interesting for headphones, what is the result in the hp sound?
Title: Re: Tyson's iFi iTube2 Review
Post by: dburna on 23 Jan 2017, 12:34 am
Yep, loved his stuff.  Still use a his power filters, power cords and interconnects in my system today.  As good as Wayne was at audio stuff, he was even better as a brewmaster.  That's what he's doing nowadays, and very successfully.

What is Wayne's brewing gig?  I might be out in CO in the not too distant future and would like to sample his offerings.

Thanks,  -dB
Title: Re: Tyson's iFi iTube2 Review
Post by: OzarkTom on 23 Jan 2017, 12:44 am
I received an Itube2 yesterday from Pez, will hook it up tomorrow night and compare it to my cryoed Itube1 which I love and has used for three years. The Xbass sounds like a big plus for me since I listen at very low volumes. That saves my ears and my marriage. :thumb:

Tyson is right, all recordings that we all own sucks. You ought to hear a master tape on a 3/4" Studer Revox, blows all records and CD's away. Makes them all sound broken.
Title: Re: Tyson's iFi iTube2 Review
Post by: Tomy2Tone on 23 Jan 2017, 12:46 am
I received an Itube2 yesterday from Pez, will hook it up tomorrow night and compare it to my cryoed Itube1 which I love and has used for three years. The Xbass sounds like a big plus for me since I listen at very low volumes. That saves my ears and my marriage. :thumb:

Tyson is right, all recordings that we all own sucks. You ought to hear a master tape on a 3/4" Studer Revox, blows all records and CD's away. Makes them all sound broken.

Awesome Tom, look forward to the comparison.
Title: Re: Tyson's iFi iTube2 Review
Post by: Tyson on 23 Jan 2017, 12:48 am
Quite an endorsement!  I think this is more of a rave than your opinion of Danny's Super7 speakers, and I know how incredible those are/were. 

Yep, and now I own the Super 7's, love those bad boys.  I see a trend - the stuff I review tends to be stuff I end up buying :lol:

Anyway, back to the iTube2, I'm using in my HT setup right now and it makes a very large improvement there.  I'm using a rather generic Blu Ray player, digital out (optical) to a Wadia DAC feeding my tube preamp and my First Watt Burning Amp 3 and Super 7's.  Even with the Wadia, the original audio recording/signal on the Blu-rays (and especially from Netflix streams) it all just sounds fairly mechanical and digital gritty.  Swapping in the iDSD doesn't help because its the original signal that is the problem.  But slipping the iTube2 does AMAZING things getting the crappiness removed and everything sounding natural with a blacker background.
Title: Re: Tyson's iFi iTube2 Review
Post by: witchdoctor on 23 Jan 2017, 12:57 am
Yep, and now I own the Super 7's, love those bad boys.  I see a trend - the stuff I review tends to be stuff I end up buying :lol:

Anyway, back to the iTube2, I'm using in my HT setup right now and it makes a very large improvement there.  I'm using a rather generic Blu Ray player, digital out (optical) to a Wadia DAC feeding my tube preamp and my First Watt Burning Amp 3 and Super 7's.  Even with the Wadia, the original audio recording/signal on the Blu-rays (and especially from Netflix streams) it all just sounds fairly mechanical and digital gritty.  Swapping in the iDSD doesn't help because its the original signal that is the problem.  But slipping the iTube2 does AMAZING things getting the crappiness removed and everything sounding natural with a blacker background.

have you tried the itube2 as a preamp yet going directly between your dac and your amp? Any thoughts about the comparison?
Title: Re: Tyson's iFi iTube2 Review
Post by: mtruong34 on 23 Jan 2017, 01:12 am
I've heard the iTube mk1 greatly improves with a linear power supply instead of the supplied SMPS. If anyone can confirm and give feedback on the same for the iTube2, then that would be much appreciated!
Title: Re: Tyson's iFi iTube2 Review
Post by: Zero on 23 Jan 2017, 01:44 am
Great review Tyson!  I feel the same way about my iTube 2.  Ain't nobody taking that unit from me!

mtruong34 - I have no answer for your re: linear power supplies.  What I can do is tell you how the original iTube stacks up against the new iTube 2.  Getting right to it:

The original iTube does what any good tube buffer should to -  it injects a warm, loveable tonality into a system without seriously compromising the integrity of the signal.  The only major caveat with the original iTube is that you can still tell that you're listening to a tube buffer - albeit a very good one.

The new iTube 2  builds upon that foundation and ramps up the performance to a whole new level!  It's sounds significantly more natural, less colored, and is no longer what I'd call a "band-aid" solution for harsh or dry sounding system.  This thing kicks butt - period!  Best of all, there's an analog switch that allows you to tailor the sound to your liking.  Do you enjoy the romantic and insightful flavor of a good S.E.T amp?  Just flip da switch!   Or maybe the classic push-pull design is more your style - again, just flip da switch!  Then you have a linear setting, which is meant to give you only a hint of that 'tube love'. 

Personally, I'm biased (har) towards the S.E.T setting.  It's good to have options!
Title: Re: Tyson's iFi iTube2 Review
Post by: witchdoctor on 23 Jan 2017, 02:19 am
Tyson thanks for the review!!! I don't think I've ever seen YOU like anything this much.  :lol: Right now iTube2 isn't available widely. It can be purchased at www.audio46.com and soon will be available on more sites.  :thumb:

Pez, the iTube2 won't work on HDMI. Do you know if the iPower will work on a Fire TV?

http://ifi-audio.com/portfolio-view/accessory-ipower/
Title: Re: Tyson's iFi iTube2 Review
Post by: mtruong34 on 23 Jan 2017, 03:45 am
Thanks for the feedback Zero. I think OzarkTom used an aftermarket power supply with the iTube1, correct? Eagerly awaiting his review. Thanks in advance.
Title: Re: Tyson's iFi iTube2 Review
Post by: jk@home on 23 Jan 2017, 12:15 pm
I'm surprised no one mentioned using the iFi iPower with these units. Bought one for my original iTube, and since have also added 3 to other (non-iFi) components.
Title: Re: Tyson's iFi iTube2 Review
Post by: charmerci on 23 Jan 2017, 01:00 pm
An enclosed tube buffer - doesn't it get really hot?
Title: Re: Tyson's iFi iTube2 Review
Post by: Tyson on 23 Jan 2017, 04:08 pm
An enclosed tube buffer - doesn't it get really hot?
Mine gets hot, but not tooooo hot.  You can still touch it.  I think the metal case helps dissipate the heat. 

I'm surprised no one mentioned using the iFi iPower with these units. Bought one for my original iTube, and since have also added 3 to other (non-iFi) components.
I think it comes with the iPower, if I'm not mistaken?  Honestly I plugged it in at the back of my system 2 weeks ago and didn't even pay attention.
Title: Re: Tyson's iFi iTube2 Review
Post by: sonicxtc on 23 Jan 2017, 06:04 pm
Thank you Tyson for the review.  :thumb:

I have a few questions:

Does anyone know if the tube is replaceable? User replaceable only? Factory replaceable? And, what's the expected tube life?

How well does this rate as a pre-amplifier? If this is truly a great little tube pre-amp, then that certainly opens some options.

If someone is already using a great tube pre-amp, then how does a tube buffer necessarily improve upon the "tube" sound when using a tube pre-amp? I'm not challenging anyone's sentiments; rather I'm trying to understand the concept of using a tube buffer WITH a tube pre-amp.

Thank you.
Title: Re: Tyson's iFi iTube2 Review
Post by: jk@home on 23 Jan 2017, 06:05 pm
Mine gets hot, but not tooooo hot.  You can still touch it.  I think the metal case helps dissipate the heat. 
I think it comes with the iPower, if I'm not mistaken?  Honestly I plugged it in at the back of my system 2 weeks ago and didn't even pay attention.

Yes, you are right, good deal. http://ifi-audio.com/portfolio-view/micro-itube2/ (http://ifi-audio.com/portfolio-view/micro-itube2/)
Title: Re: Tyson's iFi iTube2 Review
Post by: Pez on 23 Jan 2017, 08:17 pm
Thank you Tyson for the review.  :thumb:

I have a few questions:

Does anyone know if the tube is replaceable? User replaceable only? Factory replaceable? And, what's the expected tube life?

How well does this rate as a pre-amplifier? If this is truly a great little tube pre-amp, then that certainly opens some options.

If someone is already using a great tube pre-amp, then how does a tube buffer necessarily improve upon the "tube" sound when using a tube pre-amp? I'm not challenging anyone's sentiments; rather I'm trying to understand the concept of using a tube buffer WITH a tube pre-amp.

Thank you.

1. Good questions. Quick answer: No the tube is not user replaceable. Long answer: The GE JAN 5670 tube is an absolute BEAST of a tube. Long life, tightest tolerances on grid current, low noise and microphonics, thick glass, and most importantly exceptional longevity not to mention, musical beyond belief. I will be posting tech notes for both the iTube2 and the GE JAN 5670 tube soon so keep your eyes open. As with all iFi gear we stand behind the quality and if for any reason there is ever any issue let us know. One note of caution, we cannot speak to the specs and installation of any tube by a the end user. This will void the warranty and is discouraged. There is a reason we use this specific tube. It's because it is the best and most reliable in this application.

2. How does it do as a preamp? you tell us! http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=148127.msg1584465#new Check out our iTube2 AC exclusive Tour! 

3. How does it improve upon the 'tube' sound when using another tube preamp? For one, impedance matching, for two gain control if you wanted more gain, you got it! just flip the switches on the bottom of the unit for +9dB for preamp or +9 for buffer. But again I encourage folks to find out for themselves by signing up for the tour!

Hope this helps.  :thumb:
Title: Re: Tyson's iFi iTube2 Review
Post by: Pez on 23 Jan 2017, 08:21 pm
An enclosed tube buffer - doesn't it get really hot?

One of the best parts of the iFi Micro line design is the thick aluminum chassis. This design is excellent at dissipating heat. I recommend using logic in the iTube's placement. Don't stack it beneath other equipment and don't place in an area where heat dissipation and air flow is limited. aside from your standard common sense warnings, the iTube2 is designed to operate in a myriad of configurations safely, warm though it may be.
Title: Re: Tyson's iFi iTube2 Review
Post by: rodge827 on 23 Jan 2017, 08:34 pm
iFi also has the 5670 connected to an adapter for use as a drop in replacement for 6922 tubes, NOS 6922. On Saturday I put a pair into my dac and have been very happy with what I'm hearing. The Sound stage exploded in all dimensions with very good tonal balance as well. Listening to live music is a treat. Ray Brown Trio Live At LOA "Summer Wind" is a fave for listening deep into the music. With the iFi NOS 6922 a 3D landscape is had in a huge way. The 5670/NOS 6922 is an awesome tube and will bring out some serious change in any system.

http://ifi-audio.com/portfolio-view/accessory-nos-6922-2/
Title: Re: Tyson's iFi iTube2 Review
Post by: Tyson on 24 Jan 2017, 04:06 pm
I've been using the 3d setting at the "30 degree Plus" setting for my HT setup (which is 2 channel) lately.  Using it, I notice that for a LOT of 5.1 to stereo downmixes, there's really odd things that pop up fairly regularly including a bit of a hollow sound to voices as well as strange "hard jumps" during pans.  The 30 degree Plus setting really helps ameliorate that stuff and also still gives you all the tubey goodness.
Title: Re: Tyson's iFi iTube2 Review
Post by: mtruong34 on 27 Jan 2017, 03:12 am
I've already got an original iTube1 being used as a buffer. Thinking of getting an iTube2. Instead of selling the iTube1, any opinions if there would be any benefit using it in conjunction with an iTube2? Like in a daisy chain? iTube1 -> SS preamp or VC -> iTube2
Title: Re: Tyson's iFi iTube2 Review
Post by: rodge827 on 27 Jan 2017, 01:32 pm
I've already got an original iTube1 being used as a buffer. Thinking of getting an iTube2. Instead of selling the iTube1, any oinions if there would be any benefit using it in conjunction with an iTube2? Like in a daisy chain? iTube1 -> SS preamp or VC -> iTube2

Try them in both locations and decide what sounds best?  :dunno:

I would think that the iTube2 should be installed down the chain from the iTube1 as in your example.
Title: Re: Tyson's iFi iTube2 Review
Post by: Tyson on 30 Jan 2017, 04:47 am
Just another quick update - the thing I kind of love about the iTube2 is that it defies my conventional audiophile notions.  Namely that buffers are unneeded additions to the signal chain and that they always cause loss and never a gain.  That, in fact, they mess with the purity of the signal and that is always bad, per traditional thinking.  And that if we could all just get a signal that was pure enough, then we'd all have amazing systems.  But the iTube2 subverts all of that.  It makes you system sound better with an addition, not a subtraction.  I really do love that.
Title: Re: Tyson's iFi iTube2 Review
Post by: mtruong34 on 30 Jan 2017, 09:14 am
Can the iTube2 be run from a 12V power supply without any loss of quality?
Title: Re: Tyson's iFi iTube2 Review
Post by: Zero on 30 Jan 2017, 09:56 am
mtruong34,

- Daisy chaining iTube's strikes me as rather redundant - unless of course you're going for an ultra warm, homogenous presentation.  As Rodge said, you can try it out and see what happens.  Personally,  I think you'd be better off with just one unit in the chain.

- Ex-nay on the 12v power supply stay.  While there are some hefty 12v supplies that actually measure closer to 15v, it's best to stick with the 15v power supply that comes with the iTube 2. 
Title: Re: Tyson's iFi iTube2 Review
Post by: mtruong34 on 30 Jan 2017, 10:21 am
mtruong34,

- Daisy chaining iTube's strikes me as rather redundant - unless of course you're going for an ultra warm, homogenous presentation.  As Rodge said, you can try it out and see what happens.  Personally,  I think you'd be better off with just one unit in the chain.

- Ex-nay on the 12v power supply stay.  While there are some hefty 12v supplies that actually measure closer to 15v, it's best to stick with the 15v power supply that comes with the iTube 2.

From ifi's description "There is nothing like it. You can put the micro iTube2 before a solid-state preamp and another one after it, creating the effect of tubing the whole audio chain."  I was asking for potential buyers who already own the iTube1 if there might be any significant benefit of daisychaining the mk1 with the mk2.

I also read in the user's manual that the iTube2 can be run off 12V car battery power. So wondering if a quality 12V LPS would be OK since many audiophiles might have 12V LPS but very few 15V LPS.
Title: Re: Tyson's iFi iTube2 Review
Post by: OzarkTom on 30 Jan 2017, 02:40 pm


I also read in the user's manual that the iTube2 can be run off 12V car battery power. So wondering if a quality 12V LPS would be OK since many audiophiles might have 12V LPS but very few 15V LPS.

Try the stock PS first, it is an Ipower. The sound is fantastic and I doubt if you will be disappointed. My Astron is 9v, so I never tried it. Astron makes variable PS also that goes 12-15v.

Does anyone need an Itube1 at a good price?
Title: Re: Tyson's iFi iTube2 Review
Post by: EVOLVIST on 22 Feb 2017, 07:08 am

Your System is Shitty
I'm sorry but it is.  You might not think it is, but you are wrong.  I include myself in that statement.  That's a bold statement, but unless you are a part of the very small minority of audiophiles, it's true.  Why?  Because most of us pursue systems that are "true to the source" and that "reproduces the recording with as much fidelity as possible".  That is a trap.  I've been an audiophile for more than 20 years and I also fell into this trap. 

Because Recordings are Shitty
It seems so logical and obvious to want a system that's as close to "straight wire with gain" as possible.  But as someone that attends live performances of real instruments unamplified (in fact I saw a performance of Schubert's string quintet just last night), AND as someone that has over 8000 hirez recordings (including a massive number of DSD recordings) I can say this with certainty - recordings suck.  All of them.  Yes, even the "good" recordings.  They don't capture correctly how instruments and music sounds in real life.  So any system that merely reproduces the recording will never be satisfying.  Which is why you see audiophiles constantly "upgrading".  They are always searching for that next thing that will finally make their system fully satisfying.  But, to quote Indiana Jones "They are digging in the wrong place!"  Haha.

The Root of the Problem and How to Fix It
The main problem is that during the recording process itself, even order harmonics are stripped out.  Unless the recording was done using tube equipment.  Which is why even ‘great’ recordings are more edgy and less emotionally engaging than attending the performance in real life.  So, if even order harmonics are stripped out, how do we fix that?  Easy, use tube equipment.  And the closer you can use tube equipment to your source, the more impact it has.

Finally I Talk About the iTube2
If you don't want to replace your existing gear then just insert the iTube2 between your DAC and Preamp (or whatever your source is).  It connects with regular old analog RCA connectors.  The iTube2 adds the tonal richness and removes the shittiness that you never even realized was there in the first place.  You keep the goodness of your existing equipment while fixing the core problem that modern recordings represent.  Finally, you are digging in the right place! 

Final Thoughts
Inline tube gear has been around for a while.  I’ve even owned some in the past, the Musical Fidelity X-Tube to be precise.  It sucked.  Most of them seem to suck.  Because they caused a loss of resolution even while improving tonality.  The iTube2 does not suck.  It loses no resolution and still gives you the magic of tubes.  Even if you already have tubes in your system (like I do), you should still try it.  It seems to work, not by adding goodness to the signal, but rather by removing shittiness from it.  It doesn’t make your system more true to the recording.  It makes your system more true to real life.

Okay, soooo... Are there any papers or studies that would point me to what has been stated as fact in this review that recorded music is stripped of even-order harmonics, and that the only way to rectify this is to add distortion where it once was? To me tubes have always made the music sound either slightly diffuse or bloated.

Now, my caveat is that I've been listening to nothing but headphones since about 1983, so with tube gear I might be getting an earfull of mush that I wouldn't normally get with speakers. Nevertheless, this is the first I've heard this claim about even-order harmonics. Sure, I've heard people express their preferences, but not in these absolute terms.

Anyway, I'm not dogging you; simply educate me by pointing me in the right direction.  Thank you.
Title: Re: Tyson's iFi iTube2 Review
Post by: rajacat on 22 Feb 2017, 09:42 am


Anyway, I'm not dogging you; simply educate me by pointing me in the right direction.  Thank you.
It's simple :D; most people prefer tubes somewhere in their rig and most people find an all SS system relatively uninvolving, dry and somewhat irritating.
Now are you saying that most should force themselves to listen to exclusively SS gear because theoretically, it has less distortion? SS gear must be leaving something out if it just doesn't sound as musical to most people. Are you saying that you should listen to noise in preference to a more musical sound just to be consistent in the pursuit of the straight wire with gain? Second order distortion might not be the "something" that's missing from the SS presentation but there's something there that SS gear often misses despite vanishing low distortion numbers. Also, tubes "fix" digital haze. It's one reason Lampizator DACs are so popular among the very high end crowd who can afford anything. The Lampys' do very well in blind A/B tests.
Personally, I'd much rather have the tubes integrated into the amp/pre/DAC rather than tacking on a buffer. Stringing together iTubes seems somewhat ridiculous adding unnecessary interconnects and clutter.   

" with tube gear I might be getting an earful of mush" :scratch:

You've probably never heard high quality tube gear.

Title: Re: Tyson's iFi iTube2 Review
Post by: EVOLVIST on 22 Feb 2017, 03:33 pm
It's simple :D; most people prefer tubes somewhere in their rig and most people find an all SS system relatively uninvolving, dry and somewhat irritating.
Now are you saying that most should force themselves to listen to exclusively SS gear because theoretically, it has less distortion? SS gear must be leaving something out if it just doesn't sound as musical to most people. Are you saying that you should listen to noise in preference to a more musical sound just to be consistent in the pursuit of the straight wire with gain? Second order distortion might not be the "something" that's missing from the SS presentation but there's something there that SS gear often misses despite vanishing low distortion numbers. Also, tubes "fix" digital haze. It's one reason Lampizator DACs are so popular among the very high end crowd who can afford anything. The Lampys' do very well in blind A/B tests.
Personally, I'd much rather have the tubes integrated into the amp/pre/DAC rather than tacking on a buffer. Stringing together iTubes seems somewhat ridiculous adding unnecessary interconnects and clutter.   

" with tube gear I might be getting an earful of mush" :scratch:

You've probably never heard high quality tube gear.

I'm not saying anything, save asking a question about even-order harmonics being stripped from the music in the recording process. Moreover, does this claim relate to recording to magnetic tape, digital or both?

As far as what I've heard: I've heard tube and SS gear in multifarious configurations ranging from $500 to $50,000, just for the amps, buffers, preamps,  monoblocks, etc., alone, both vintage and modern. I have even owned an iTube for about a month, and I'm a great fan of iFi gear. But none of that is really the question.
Title: Re: Tyson's iFi iTube2 Review
Post by: Tyson on 22 Feb 2017, 05:59 pm
Not a paper, but a distortion analyzer (I build gear as a fun side hobby).  Hook up any SS piece of gear and it's distortion characteristics almost always are odd order dominated.  Tube gear is even order dominated.  That's true whether in the playback chain or in the recording chain.  The nasty thing is that with recordings made on SS gear, that odd order dominant distortion gets encoded into the recording itself. 

If you don't believe me, go to a live performance of real instruments in real space, unamplified.  Then compare it to the best recording you have via your system.  The live always wins, mostly because their true sound is never really captured well in the first place because of the recording gear itself.  Tubes in the playback chain certainly help the situation, but even there it never fully remediates the fundamental problem of odd-order harmonic shift that occurs with SS recording gear. 
Title: Re: Tyson's iFi iTube2 Review
Post by: EVOLVIST on 22 Feb 2017, 10:08 pm
Not a paper, but a distortion analyzer (I build gear as a fun side hobby).  Hook up any SS piece of gear and it's distortion characteristics almost always are odd order dominated.  Tube gear is even order dominated.  That's true whether in the playback chain or in the recording chain.  The nasty thing is that with recordings made on SS gear, that odd order dominant distortion gets encoded into the recording itself. 

Okay, so what if you seek to measure a SS playback device where theTHD+N is almost unmeasurable at 0.000015% with zero noise floor modulation, then how are you going to tell with any instrument the levels of distortion that are baked into the recording?  Now, I know that just because it isn't measurable doesnt mean it isn't there;  still is it audible enough to even rate the use of tubes to cure an ill which isn't apparent to neither the ears nor the measuring device?
Title: Re: Tyson's iFi iTube2 Review
Post by: Tyson on 22 Feb 2017, 10:39 pm
What I am saying is that in any recording there is loss of fidelity to the live event.  You can test that by going to a live performance.  I did it last year at RMAF with the Kimber live recording of a piano performance.  We listened to a live piano, then listened to the recording of that a few minutes later and it simply was not the same.  My suspicion is that this loss is inherent in the recording process, and I've noticed that even recordings made using tube equipment aren't perfect.  But recordings using tube equipment sound generally better than recordings made on SS gear.  Harmonic distortion profile is one explanation.

And, getting very very very low distortion like you mention is possible only with large amounts of negative feedback in the circuit.  Negative feedback itself causes the sound to degrade.  So you end up with a design that measures better but sounds even worse than the simpler circuit with higher distortion.  Simple circuits with reasonably low distortion profiles that tend toward even order usually sound best, at least in my experience. 

But even best case scenario, lets say a recording was made on the best recording equipment today, there's still loss.  I wish it weren't true, but it is.  So your system will only ever replicate a lossilly captured event.  So chasing after reproducing that recording perfectly is a fools errand, IMO.  Better to accept that the source material is limited and then tailor your playback chain to optimize your experience in other ways.

This is my philosophy based on my own experience and tastes.  Others will feel differently, and that's OK.
Title: Re: Tyson's iFi iTube2 Review
Post by: EVOLVIST on 23 Feb 2017, 08:14 am
Tyson,

Well, you're certainly right about no recorded music being accurate. Yes, it's just not. My point if contention was, and still is, that even-order harmonics have been wiped from all recordings unless tube gear has been used in the process. Because, for one, there is a DAC with the above mentioned THD, the Chord DAVE, with very little ,to no,  negative feedback. Therefore, if it cannot be measured, or heard, the negligible distortion that we are talking about simply cannot be a product of the absence or precense of tube gear in the recording process;  it's simply the recording process, itself, that is the culprit of inaccurate sound reproduction. After all, from roughly the 1920s to the early 1980s all music was recorded with tube gear, and even to some ill effects, like let's say the tube compression of mid-60s Kinks and Beatles.

That said, I HAVE read the papers and studies of tube amps, preamp, monoblocks and buffers have a more soothing effect on most listeners, as opposed to solid state. This seems to be a given. Has iFi found the golden balance, though, in such a little object? I know that my couple of years with the iDSD micro would hint to yes. Tubes through cans, though? For these ears the effect has never grabbed me, probably because headphone listening is very much an in-the-head experience, and any nuance distorts the product is felt too intimately - like tubes. I might be in the minority there, yet I'm also very sensitive to ear fatigue with dynamically compromised audio with cans.

Anyway, so that we're not dancing, I have little doubt that the iTube2 is a fantastic product. IFi gears plays extremely well with other iFi gear, so the synergy therein is probably amazing. It's a bit strange, however, that I've found that iFi stuff doesn't always mate well with other manufacturers, which is why I'm hesitant to see if it shakes hands well with my DAVE.


(If there are any typos, forgive me, because I've been typing all of this from my phone.)
Title: Re: Tyson's iFi iTube2 Review
Post by: Zero on 23 Feb 2017, 08:36 am
I'll leave the even/odd order juxtaposition to you boys.  All I'll say is that I've tried the iTube 2 on Heed, Holographic Audio, Dayens, Vista Audio, Musical Fidelity, and Pioneer products - and each time the results were consistent and positive.  Obviously this is a small sample from an incredibly broad range of hi-fi kit, but so far, so good.
Title: Re: Tyson's iFi iTube2 Review
Post by: Tyson on 23 Feb 2017, 05:17 pm
Tyson,

Well, you're certainly right about no recorded music being accurate. Yes, it's just not. My point if contention was, and still is, that even-order harmonics have been wiped from all recordings unless tube gear has been used in the process. Because, for one, there is a DAC with the above mentioned THD, the Chord DAVE, with very little ,to no,  negative feedback. Therefore, if it cannot be measured, or heard, the negligible distortion that we are talking about simply cannot be a product of the absence or precense of tube gear in the recording process;  it's simply the recording process, itself, that is the culprit of inaccurate sound reproduction. After all, from roughly the 1920s to the early 1980s all music was recorded with tube gear, and even to some ill effects, like let's say the tube compression of mid-60s Kinks and Beatles.

That said, I HAVE read the papers and studies of tube amps, preamp, monoblocks and buffers have a more soothing effect on most listeners, as opposed to solid state. This seems to be a given. Has iFi found the golden balance, though, in such a little object? I know that my couple of years with the iDSD micro would hint to yes. Tubes through cans, though? For these ears the effect has never grabbed me, probably because headphone listening is very much an in-the-head experience, and any nuance distorts the product is felt too intimately - like tubes. I might be in the minority there, yet I'm also very sensitive to ear fatigue with dynamically compromised audio with cans.

Anyway, so that we're not dancing, I have little doubt that the iTube2 is a fantastic product. IFi gears plays extremely well with other iFi gear, so the synergy therein is probably amazing. It's a bit strange, however, that I've found that iFi stuff doesn't always mate well with other manufacturers, which is why I'm hesitant to see if it shakes hands well with my DAVE.


(If there are any typos, forgive me, because I've been typing all of this from my phone.)

You have valid points, and I agree with you more than I don't :)  But as a techie and engineer type and as someone familiar with building gear and measuring performance, along with about 10 years of hardcore exposure to just about every statement piece of gear from most major manufacturers, my advice is to simply ignore the measurements.  They don't actually help, in fact they often cause problems.  Just listen to the equipment first, without reading or caring about the measures. 

Here's why - its so easy for people like us to let the measures influence us.  If it measures well (especially if it measures extremely well), then subconsciously that biases us toward believing it will sound good.  And that will change our perception.  IME, it's best to listen first, get a perception formed (one way or the other), and only then, after a good 'blind' listening (from a measurement/circuit perspective), only THEN have a gander at the measures and see if they match up with the direct experience/perception. 

Technical specs for guys like us is like marketing and pretty boxes are for most other people.  In both cases, they are deceiving and best avoided until you have a pretty good handle on the actual sound of the unit.  I find that there's often a very low correlation between measures and sound quality.  Just like I find there is often very low correlation between price and performance. 

And some people simply don't like the sound of tubes, no matter what.  That's OK too :)  You might be one of them.
Title: Re: Tyson's iFi iTube2 Review
Post by: Tyson on 22 Mar 2017, 06:30 pm
I still have the iTube2 in my HT system - we watched Dr. Strange this past weekend on blu ray and the audio was holy-sh!t amazing.  The sound was always 'very good' in the past, but never amazing.  The addition of tubes really ratchets up the whole movie experience.
Title: Re: Tyson's iFi iTube2 Review
Post by: schw06 on 15 Apr 2017, 02:52 pm
   I recently dusted off my iDSD micro and IUSB (version 1) with Mercury and Gemini cables and decided to plug the IUSB into my Aurender music server...That was a pleasant surprise. I had heard that the IUSB3 was a big improvement so I picked one up and it is an incremental improvement in making digital audio sound less mechanical and fatiguing. I had owned the original itube years ago and can't say that as a standalone unit it did anything for me so it was sold long ago. Next was to try the IUSB into the iDSD and bypass my reference dac. I hung on to the IDSD for a reason and I'm glad I did. It sounds different than my reference dac but I can't say that I liked it more. That piqued my interest enough to grab an ITube2 so the chain is Aurender>IUSB3>iDSD>ITube2 and HOLY SMOKES! The whole is much greater than the sum of the parts for sure.
Disclaimer: The objective of my system has changed over the years. My goals are to find products that make me NOT want to analyze my system. So, I won't blather on about sparkling highs and thunderous bass and soundstaging etc...However, I can tell you that if you want a front end system that is unfailingly natural and does not excite your left brain, the Ifi combination is a winner. The combination is a "get off the merry go round" front end. There is a "rightness" about the music it creates that words don't properly explain.  I agree wholeheartedly with Tyson's review and his "cold dead hands" comment. I can't speak for the ITube2 without the iDSD or IUSB3 but I'm not interested in doing the experiment. The combination of all the products does add up to almost $1600 retail but if all you need is USB +/- SPDIF inputs, it's worth every penny.
P.S.-Sorry for all the typos for those that endured this post before I corrected the spelling and grammar.
Title: Re: Tyson's iFi iTube2 Review
Post by: Tyson on 23 Apr 2017, 11:18 pm
The combination is a "get off the merry go round" front end. There is a "rightness" about the music it creates that words don't properly explain.

Yup!
Title: Re: Tyson's iFi iTube2 Review
Post by: Tyson on 25 Apr 2017, 12:39 am
I have it hooked up to the output of my Wadia DAC that I use in my HT setup.  Watched Madagascar 3 and the Lion King with my daughter tonight and the music and singing sounded phenomenal.  Just phenomenal. 
Title: Re: Tyson's iFi iTube2 Review
Post by: witchdoctor on 3 May 2017, 12:18 pm
I have it hooked up to the output of my Wadia DAC that I use in my HT setup.  Watched Madagascar 3 and the Lion King with my daughter tonight and the music and singing sounded phenomenal.  Just phenomenal.

In two channel PCM?
Title: Re: Tyson's iFi iTube2 Review
Post by: Tyson on 4 May 2017, 06:41 pm
Yep.  I have my HT and music system integrated into the main listening room downstairs.  I've had multichannel in the past but it's a no-go per DW in the new place.  I have a iFi iDSD hooked up to a PC for music, and the Wadia DAC hooked up to the bluray player.  Both plug into my tubed preamp.
Title: Re: Tyson's iFi iTube2 Review
Post by: RDavidson on 7 May 2017, 07:46 pm
I've been following this thread here and there and the enthusiasm is hard to ignore. To folks on the fence, I found a pretty awesome deal : :o
https://www.adorama.com/ifiitube2.html?sdtid=10128244&emailprice=t&utm_medium=Affiliate&utm_source=rflaid62905

Sorry if this isn't technically the appropriate place for this information. But I thought it made the most sense for those truly interested.
Title: Re: Tyson's iFi iTube2 Review
Post by: GentleBender on 7 May 2017, 11:40 pm
That is an awesome deal! I would be jealous, but I've been enjoying the iTube 2 for a couple months. It has saved my digital system. Can't believe something like this exists for this price. May not be the end all piece of equipment, but it covers my desires at a stupid good price. :duh:
Title: Re: Tyson's iFi iTube2 Review
Post by: RDavidson on 8 May 2017, 12:06 am
Right! As a preamp for a modest system or even as a "color enhancer" for higher-end setup, it's a pretty neat and fun little Swiss Army knife-like gadget. At MSRP it is tempting, but at the price I found it's almost a no brainier to at least give it a try. I mean, if it's not your cup of tea you could turn around and sell it at maybe little to no loss. Or just keep it around for a desktop setup or whatever. It's not like it takes up a lot valuable space. You can't go wrong. :thumb:
Title: Re: Tyson's iFi iTube2 Review
Post by: Tomy2Tone on 9 May 2017, 01:44 am
I've been following this thread here and there and the enthusiasm is hard to ignore. To folks on the fence, I found a pretty awesome deal : :o
https://www.adorama.com/ifiitube2.html?sdtid=10128244&emailprice=t&utm_medium=Affiliate&utm_source=rflaid62905

Sorry if this isn't technically the appropriate place for this information. But I thought it made the most sense for those truly interested.

Just wanted to say thanks for posting this yesterday as I had put off getting an itube2 for a while.  :thumb:

Apparently the deal must have been short lived as it's back to regular price now.
Title: Re: Tyson's iFi iTube2 Review
Post by: RDavidson on 9 May 2017, 03:54 am
That sucks. I bet they simply ran out or only had a limited quantity to sell at the sale price. :|
Title: Re: Tyson's iFi iTube2 Review
Post by: nature boy on 10 May 2017, 01:19 pm
Tyson and other iTube 2 owners,

How long will it take for this tube buffer to fully burn in?  I picked one up on the Adorama sale to use between my Dynavector P75 phono pre and my preamp.

NB
Title: Re: Tyson's iFi iTube2 Review
Post by: Tyson on 10 May 2017, 06:29 pm
100 hours gets you most of the way there.  300 gets you all the way.
Title: Re: Tyson's iFi iTube2 Review
Post by: Zero on 10 May 2017, 06:52 pm
Tyson beat me to the punch.   The only thing I have to add is that in my experience, the iTube 2 sounded pleasant fresh outta the box.  Other iFi products?  Yeah.  Not so much.   You really need to put hours on products like the Black Label or the Pro to appreciate their natural performance envelope.



Title: Re: Tyson's iFi iTube2 Review
Post by: nature boy on 10 May 2017, 07:10 pm
Thanks guys!  Yes, sounds very good out of the box.  Using the SET setting just gives added dimensionality and expanded the soundstage depth & width.  Vocals are getting there, I expect this area will improve once burn in has been completed.  Money well spent!

NB
Title: Re: Tyson's iFi iTube2 Review
Post by: atsq on 23 Jun 2017, 03:48 am
Sounds like this might be just the thing for my HD800 setup!
Title: Re: Tyson's iFi iTube2 Review
Post by: 006.9 on 27 Oct 2017, 04:00 pm
Tyson, I'm hoping to get your feedback here.

I have a very simple, generally enjoyable system for mostly classical chamber music, acoustic jazz, and the occasional big orchestra, opera, big band jazz, or thumping pop tune.

I play standard CDs using this path:

NAD 516BEE optical out > Emotiva DC-1 DAC as DAC and preamp > Electron Kinetics Eagle 2 amp upgraded to 100,000 pF of power supply capacitance > Vandersteen 2C speakers on lead-filled stands.

I'm thinking about adding an iTube2 between the DAC and the power amp mostly out of curiosity since I'm already happy with my sound. Will any of its settings make a string quartet sound more lifelike? Piano, bass, drums, and tenor sax? The choir and vocal soloists in a Bach cantata?

I'm a working musician and music teacher who has invested much more of my money in my instruments than in my hi-fi. I know what real instruments sound like up close, far away, played well, played badly. I can tell when a trumpet section is using their C trumpets and when they're using their B-flat trumpets with my eyes closed.

Will any of the settings on the iTube2 make my simple hi-fi sound more lifelike?

I welcome anybody's input, but especially Tyson's because he is obviously an enthusiast with regard to this little unit.



Title: Re: Tyson's iFi iTube2 Review
Post by: Tyson on 27 Oct 2017, 04:15 pm
Tyson, I'm hoping to get your feedback here.

I have a very simple, generally enjoyable system for mostly classical chamber music, acoustic jazz, and the occasional big orchestra, opera, big band jazz, or thumping pop tune.

I play standard CDs using this path:

NAD 516BEE optical out > Emotiva DC-1 DAC as DAC and preamp > Electron Kinetics Eagle 2 amp upgraded to 100,000 pF of power supply capacitance > Vandersteen 2C speakers on lead-filled stands.

I'm thinking about adding an iTube2 between the DAC and the power amp mostly out of curiosity since I'm already happy with my sound. Will any of its settings make a string quartet sound more lifelike? Piano, bass, drums, and tenor sax? The choir and vocal soloists in a Bach cantata?

I'm a working musician and music teacher who has invested much more of my money in my instruments than in my hi-fi. I know what real instruments sound like up close, far away, played well, played badly. I can tell when a trumpet section is using their C trumpets and when they're using their B-flat trumpets with my eyes closed.

Will any of the settings on the iTube2 make my simple hi-fi sound more lifelike?

I welcome anybody's input, but especially Tyson's because he is obviously an enthusiast with regard to this little unit.




Yes, it'll definitely help, because it improves tone.  I have a theory that I've developed over many years of listening and being a pretty hardcore audiophile.  When music is recorded (especially with modern, digital, solid state equipment), even order harmonic information is stripped out due to the nature of the equipment capturing and recording the music.  So when we play it back on our systems, it never sounds quite 'right' especially compared to live instruments. 

Which means that striving to reproduce the recording as faithfully as possible is never going to be satisfying, because the recording itself is flawed.  But you know what brings back that even order, nice tone?  Tubes!  And thus the value of the iTube2.  The beauty of something like the iTube2 is that its less faithful to the original recording, but is MORE faithful to how things sound in real life. 

The thing that lets us, as humans, hear differences between instruments and voices is 2 fold.  Location and tone.  Location is the ability of your system to create a good soundstage and imaging, which lets you hear that the instrument is located 'right there'.  The iTube2 won't help much with that, since that tends to be a result of overall system resolution, and room/speaker setup.  But, tone is maybe even MORE important.  Hearing the difference between double basses, cellos, violas and violins when all hell is breaking loose in Mahler or Shostakovich - not so easy if your system isn't excellent with tone.  I've never heard an all-Solid State system that was great at tone.  And this is the true value of the iTube2 - it gets you better tonal balance and tonal shading. 
Title: Re: Tyson's iFi iTube2 Review
Post by: 006.9 on 27 Oct 2017, 05:14 pm
Thanks, Tyson. Appreciate your thoughts.
Title: Re: Tyson's iFi iTube2 Review
Post by: brj on 27 Oct 2017, 06:09 pm
I've never heard an all-Solid State system that was great at tone.

In another post, I saw you mention a preference for the BA-3 from among all of the Pass Labs amps, which I believe lets you adjust the level of 2 and 3rd order harmonic.  (Going from memory...)  How close did that get you?

The iTube2 would be fun to try, but alas, they only offer a single-ended version and my system has evolved to be fully differential.  Maybe a Pro version will show up some day...
Title: Re: Tyson's iFi iTube2 Review
Post by: Tyson on 27 Oct 2017, 06:43 pm
In another post, I saw you mention a preference for the BA-3 from among all of the Pass Labs amps, which I believe lets you adjust the level of 2 and 3rd order harmonic.  (Going from memory...)  How close did that get you?

The iTube2 would be fun to try, but alas, they only offer a single-ended version and my system has evolved to be fully differential.  Maybe a Pro version will show up some day...

Yep, the reason I settled on the BA3 is that it lets you adjust the even order harmonics (2nd order dominant).  You can adjust it so that 2nd order is about twice as high as 3rd order (turned all the way up) or you can adjust it so that 2nd order harmonics are virtually non-existent (turned all the way down).  You can't adjust the odd order harmonics at all (which are pretty low, actually). 

So yeah, with the even order harmonics turned all the way up, combined with a very, very simple circuit, fully class A output and copper/beeswax/paper input caps, it's as close to tubes as SS gets.  My system is hyper sensitive to noise, and the BA3 is one of the quietest amps out there.  If I could find a super-quiet tube amp I'd use that instead.  But in my system, all tube amps are too noisy.  And that's why I go with a great tubed preamp combined with the BA3, and a warm/musical type DAC like the iFi iDSD Micro.