Reviewing my DAC 4800a/Cherry Jr.

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Zynec

Reviewing my DAC 4800a/Cherry Jr.
« on: 26 Jun 2012, 08:00 pm »

My Review of the Digital Amplifier Company's Cherry Jr. ...err in a DAC4800a chassis.
Well, as you DAC fans know (and to inform the casual reader), the last run of DAC4800a's made in December of last year were in fact Cherry Jr.'s in the old 4800a chassis.  Being a value oriented audiophile still finding his way in the audiophool world, I had tried different amps using Audiogon as a means to explore in a cost-effective way.  But, at some point I heard about Spectron and Cherry amps and the description of their characteristics seemed to match what I thought would interest me, and since Tommy often offers great deals (case in point- the last run of 4800a's) and is a small technical company fighting in a marketing-oriented world, I took the plunge and ordered my Cherry Jr/4800a in late December 2011.  An Xmas present to myself I guess.

I received the amp later in January and set about burning it in all the while jotting down notes on how the sound evolved so I could contribute to the DAC community here by writing up my impressions.  I had been planning to write this review for some time, originally targeting late March.  But a subsequent move across the country which resulted in my stuff being in boxes for
over a month brings us to the present.


System
Sony Vaio Z Win7 -> Foobar2000 -> Halide Bridge -> Metrum Octave -> JRDG Capri -> DAC4800a/"Cherry Jr".  Interconnects are custom length Mogami with Neutrik connectors.  Speaker cables are Acoustic Zen Satori.  My philosophy has been to try and keep things toward neutral.  The speakers are a bit unusual:  Vintage Technics SB-6.

For comparisons sake, I have heard this system with a cheap Denon receiver, a vintage Yamaha amplifier, the Almarro A318B and JRDG 102.  The Almarro didn't match well with these speakers as they seem to really need some serious current, although curiously it output prodigious (more but unresolved compared to the Cherry) bass.  The 102 was decent, but also clearly lacking in power as the sound stage would often collapse.  But I liked some of the things I could tell the 102 did well, and I liked the idea of power efficient Class D technology - so, enter thy Cherry.


Initial impressions
Out of the box the imaging is excellent and the resolution is very good as well.  You can tell that this amp is going to image great and be very resolving.  It's probably already at 75%+ along these two dimensions of where it ends up after being broken in.  No collapsing/spatial distortions here!

The general nature of the amp out of the box is one of ease but a bit of a lazy ease for lack of better words.  On complex and fast passages in some of my electronic music there were moments where one could notice a sense of lag or confusion.  While I do believe this is partially amp dependent, there was also a room factor I believe (neither of my rooms have been especially optimized)  As an example though, the effect was very noticeable in the song End of the Road from Infected Mushrooms' The Legend of the Black Shwarma album. At around 30 hrs, it seems the amp is starting to find the path here, but it's still quite off.  Around 40 hrs though it was getting very close to being sorted.

Surprising to me, the bass out of the box actually seemed somewhat lacking, although again the resolution and articulation of bass details is there. As for mid-range/vocals, at this early stage one can already tell that there is more fullness but this becomes even better later on. I believe this has been described as "putting meat on the bones" and is a pretty accurate description of what the Cherry does here (and is definitely right in my mind, but I suppose there are those who prefer a more thin/etched view of the sonic landscape).  The treble is nice and refined, perhaps a little bit tipped up on some songs out of the box but ends up being a little bit tipped down after burn in.


At 40 Hours
The bass has arrived :)  Now the amp has what I could describe as an alert ease.  What the heck does that mean?  Well, it has ease in the sense that it never seems strained to put out enough power or maintain the stereo image - it doesn't break a sweat to do these things.  But at the same time, if the music is supposed to be emotionally exciting, active and fast, the amp reflects this so it's not holding back the flow of such music.  Which is very important for my musical tastes. (It's probably not the ultimate in terms of speed, but at 40 hrs i didn't feel that it was really holding things back - we're talking an epsilon difference between what it does at this point and what my ears/brain are physically able to resolve).  Vocals are beautiful - this is clearly noticeable on good recordings.  The image is rock solid irregardless of loud passages, quiet passages, fast passages, complex passages, transients, etc.  Instruments are layered front to back in the sound stage as well as placement in terms of width and height and the illusion is never lacking.  Soft to loud transients are handled much much better now.  In retrospect, there was also a big improvement here after my move, so a lot of this had something to do with the first room, so a bit hard to pick that apart further.  At this point it felt like the amp is well on it's way to converging to its final state, so I figured I'd let it burn to about 100 hrs and that should be representative of what it does.


>200 Hours
Well, I got busy and had to move, so I didn't get a chance to write down detailed comments at 100 hours.  But I would say the amp continued to become more refined in its characteristics up to the current point, which is well past 200 hours by now I should think. In my general experience with audio gear, 200 hours is a reasonably typical number of hours to expect for burn-in.  The only item I have that required significantly more for very discernible improvements are my Sennheiser IE8's, which take _FOREVER_ to burn-in :)

So, what has changed?  The Cherry continued to improve and become more refined in what it does.  My new room (which is actually temporary) was also an improvement - cement basement walls with insulation and dry-wall instead of the cheap & hollow flexi-walls of my previous upstairs townhouse apartment.

This level of refinement is actually quite noticeable and surprised me.  For instance, pitch is rendered not only in the mids and highs, but also in the bass, which I had not heard until the Cherry.  People should definitely  give the Cherry around 200hours to sound its best in my opinion.  It can also need a couple hours to settle down after being unplugged/moved in my experience.  It has become so effortless in its power delivery, wonderfully resolving and incredibly spatially accurate in painting the sonic picture, and produces a fun and dynamic sound that portrays the playfulness present in many of my electronic files in an accurate way, which is what makes good electronica really fun to listen too.  And, it renders vocals with that bit of wholeness/meat/presence that just makes good vocals to die for.  Perhaps, describing what this amp does well is rather hard because it does so much well based on my experience and my ears.  In fact, what became clear to me through this experience is that my electronics are now at a level where the limiting item is quite clearly the speakers.  How frustrating is that! :)


So, why is it called Cherry?  Well, I don't know for sure, but when I think of the logo, I think of a maraschino cherry adding a bit of a colorful splash of taste to an otherwise crisp & clean vodka martini.  I think that is an apt image of how this amp communicates music.

I hope you liked my review (first time doing one!), and in return I only ask 2 things:

1. Speaker recommendations!  I am quite intrigued by the Talon's in particular, anyone have
experience with this pairing?

2. Please don't let Tommy name the new amp the Olive (sorry Tommy!).  DAC Maraschino actually
sounds good to me! :thumb:



Zynec

Re: Reviewing my DAC 4800a/Cherry Jr.
« Reply #1 on: 26 Jun 2012, 08:01 pm »
Pics added, sorry for the low quality.










« Last Edit: 29 Jun 2012, 09:45 pm by Zynec »

AmpDesigner333

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Re: Reviewing my DAC 4800a/Cherry Jr.
« Reply #2 on: 28 Jun 2012, 08:58 pm »
Great review!  Very nice and more professional than many professionals :)

-Tommy O

Cheeseboy

Re: Reviewing my DAC 4800a/Cherry Jr.
« Reply #3 on: 28 Jun 2012, 09:42 pm »
You are on the money.  The old Technics Honeycombed speakers are holding you back.  As a suggestion you should investigate a line of speakers where you are at right now.  Audio Circle.  You hit extreme paydirt with the Cherry.  I have one and I love it.  There are speaker manufacturers and speaker kit makers at Audio Circle that can provide you with the same value proposition that DAC has been able to deliver. 

Salk
Daedalus
GR Research - I own a pair from here.
Von Schweikert
and more.
Ask the question here what speakers would work best with your Cherry and you will get some valuable feedback.  What is your budget and describe your listening room.  What kind of music do you listen to as well.

Steve


highfilter

Re: Reviewing my DAC 4800a/Cherry Jr.
« Reply #4 on: 28 Jun 2012, 10:19 pm »
I'll throw in a nod to Salk Signature Sound. I have the Cherry Jr. and Salk SoundScape 10's and they are a fantastic combo. Looking forward to try some of DAC's new amp line-up in the future, as my budget expands.

Good luck.  :D

Cheeseboy

Re: Reviewing my DAC 4800a/Cherry Jr.
« Reply #5 on: 29 Jun 2012, 05:08 pm »
I own these from the defunct AV123.  They were designed and can be bought in a kit from GR Research here at AC.

http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue41/ls6.htm

http://www.stereomojo.com/LS6%20review/AV123LS6review.htm

After I heard my friends Big Joule Mono amps I knew the Cherry was a great buy.   My Cherry just lacks the last bit of front to back depth.  He is playing these.  The Super V speakers from Gr Research.  They don't need the high Wattage but it didn't hurt with the tube amps.  Check out the whole thread.  As Hugh has the same speakers as me.
 
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=107412.0

Zynec

Re: Reviewing my DAC 4800a/Cherry Jr.
« Reply #6 on: 29 Jun 2012, 10:01 pm »
@Tommy - thanks! :)

@rest:  I have heard of some of the manufacturers listed, but I like the Talon's as they seem to have great performance without being physically huge.  I have not read much about line speakers as Cheeseboy recommends - what is the idea behind this type of design?  The in-room freq response on one of the links you provided was pretty impressive, but again they are quite large.

These days I'm mostly listening to electronic music, and sometimes alt-rock, pop and classical.  I also would like to be able to use my system with my TV for movies, etc.

As far as budget goes, my mindset is to hold off & save up to get the right speakers.  Plus, I will definitely need to audition speakers to make sure everything gels.  I think the usual rule for speakers:electronics is 50:50 to 70:30 right?  So retail my equipment is probably in the 7-8K range, I should be looking at speakers in the ~15-20K range new which means my actual budget should probably be 5-8K as I will either go with a small company again, or used off of A'gon.  Does this sound right?

Not that I actually *want* (or currently can!) spend that much! lol

Cheeseboy

Re: Reviewing my DAC 4800a/Cherry Jr.
« Reply #7 on: 30 Jun 2012, 12:55 am »
Based on what you have today I would start in the $5K to 8K zone. 
How big is your listening area?  Demensions if you could be so kind.  If you could include the distance to the listening chair from the front wall that would be great. 

TomS

Re: Reviewing my DAC 4800a/Cherry Jr.
« Reply #8 on: 30 Jun 2012, 01:22 am »
At $8k the Salk Soundscape 8's would be a good option. Or if you stretch to $10k "Catastrofe" has a gorgeous pair of SS 10's for sale

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=99715.0

Zynec

Re: Reviewing my DAC 4800a/Cherry Jr.
« Reply #9 on: 30 Jun 2012, 02:06 am »
How big is your listening area?  Demensions if you could be so kind.  If you could include the distance to the listening chair from the front wall that would be great.

The room is 16'x12', the chair is about 10' from the wall.

@TomS thanks!  Any clue how these would compare to the Talon Firebirds on A'gon around $11k?

Zynec

Re: Reviewing my DAC 4800a/Cherry Jr.
« Reply #10 on: 30 Jun 2012, 02:13 am »
I'll throw in a nod to Salk Signature Sound. I have the Cherry Jr. and Salk SoundScape 10's and they are a fantastic combo.

What kind of music do you listen to highfilter?

TomS

Re: Reviewing my DAC 4800a/Cherry Jr.
« Reply #11 on: 30 Jun 2012, 02:21 am »
The room is 16'x12', the chair is about 10' from the wall.

@TomS thanks!  Any clue how these would compare to the Talon Firebirds on A'gon around $11k?
I heard a pair of the Talon Diamonds in Chicago a few years ago, with 200w of Joule Electra Rite Passage OTL's and they were indeed very nice. The room was probably 3 times the size of yours, so not sure how that would work out. That kind of money can also buy Vandy 5A's used or those SS10's, so that would be a tough call. I've heard the SS8's in a fairly small room (BigRedMachine's), though very heavily treated, and they sounded terrific top to bottom. Tough to beat.

highfilter

Re: Reviewing my DAC 4800a/Cherry Jr.
« Reply #12 on: 30 Jun 2012, 02:30 am »
What kind of music do you listen to highfilter?

A little bit of everything but I love Electronica, Industrial, Rock, Metal, Jazz, some Classical. My mind was blown when the SoundScapes entered my room, because it brought ALL my music to life. Instruments render beautifully and synths have depth / texture and a lot of music like Squarepusher and Autechre can transport you completely into their world. Nothing is bloated or distracting - you'll find out just what's on those tracks you listen to.

See if you can swing an audition - they continue to impress me with each new album I listen to. Another nice feature is you can control how much ambiance works for you with stuffing the open-back on the midrange chamber. Having it open in my room definitely presents the best and most natural air and soundstage.

Can't give much insight into different amp pairings with the SoundScapes, but the Cherry Jr. has got me this far and I have nothing to complain about. Only other amp I've had while using the SoundScapes is a Marantz 7002 receiver - which the Cherry gladly murdered.  :D

Zynec

Re: Reviewing my DAC 4800a/Cherry Jr.
« Reply #13 on: 30 Jun 2012, 02:39 am »
I heard a pair of the Talon Diamonds in Chicago a few years ago, with 200w of Joule Electra Rite Passage OTL's and they were indeed very nice. The room was probably 3 times the size of yours, so not sure how that would work out. That kind of money can also buy Vandy 5A's used or those SS10's, so that would be a tough call. I've heard the SS8's in a fairly small room (BigRedMachine's), though very heavily treated, and they sounded terrific top to bottom. Tough to beat.

Thanks, that is useful info.  If I moved the setup to be with the TV the room would be a bit bigger but certainly nowhere near 3x.

BTW, what is that transporter in your gallery?  Haven't seen that one before...

Zynec

Re: Reviewing my DAC 4800a/Cherry Jr.
« Reply #14 on: 30 Jun 2012, 02:43 am »
A little bit of everything but I love Electronica, Industrial, Rock, Metal, Jazz, some Classical. My mind was blown when the SoundScapes entered my room, because it brought ALL my music to life. Instruments render beautifully and synths have depth / texture and a lot of music like Squarepusher and Autechre can transport you completely into their world. Nothing is bloated or distracting - you'll find out just what's on those tracks you listen to.

See if you can swing an audition - they continue to impress me with each new album I listen to. Another nice feature is you can control how much ambiance works for you with stuffing the open-back on the midrange chamber. Having it open in my room definitely presents the best and most natural air and soundstage.

Can't give much insight into different amp pairings with the SoundScapes, but the Cherry Jr. has got me this far and I have nothing to complain about. Only other amp I've had while using the SoundScapes is a Marantz 7002 receiver - which the Cherry gladly murdered.  :D

Was just listening to some Autechre earlier today  :green:  Any particular words you would use on how the Salks render vocals?

I will definitely want to audition a few options at some point, but you know how this disease is - best to wait until you have most of the cash in hand before you start auditioning  :lol:


TomS

Re: Reviewing my DAC 4800a/Cherry Jr.
« Reply #15 on: 30 Jun 2012, 02:59 am »
Thanks, that is useful info.  If I moved the setup to be with the TV the room would be a bit bigger but certainly nowhere near 3x.

BTW, what is that transporter in your gallery?  Haven't seen that one before...
Logitech Transporter was available from SlimDevices for several years as a top of the line wireless streaming DAC. The newer Logitech Touch pretty much supersedes it these days, for a lot less money.

highfilter

Re: Reviewing my DAC 4800a/Cherry Jr.
« Reply #16 on: 30 Jun 2012, 06:19 pm »
Was just listening to some Autechre earlier today  :green:  Any particular words you would use on how the Salks render vocals?

I will definitely want to audition a few options at some point, but you know how this disease is - best to wait until you have most of the cash in hand before you start auditioning  :lol:

There are many times when a song would come on where the vocals start up and startled me. Like a person emerged and was suddenly in the room. A lot of Johnny Cash songs are like that. Vocals have weight, natural extension and the tonal balance is pretty scary at times. There's a natural weight to vocals that makes them just sound right - not over heavy or high pitched. You'll hear each singer with their own character but you'll see further into how their voice sounds because they will render little details.

I have a pair of Klipsch RB-62's in my office and you can hear how colored the voicing is on them compared to the Salks. While they sound good, you can hear that they are colored and when you hear the Salks, it's like singers have a real voice and just the natural extension can move you. Stuff like Fleetwood Mac, Portishead, Emily Haines, Feist - you'll hear them in a new light. Probably has a lot to do with the ribbon tweeter and how it's implemented, as it's very fast and has a natural way with air. High frequencies / vocals are without sibilance as well, just pure extension (depends on the track of course, some masterings are just doomed from the beginning).

Might be hard to explain, but just the natural decay and dynamics of the Salks can just disappear in the room. And on many tracks, the vocals can emerge in the center and it's just amazing. Like a singer standing in the center of the stage.

Cheeseboy

Re: Reviewing my DAC 4800a/Cherry Jr.
« Reply #17 on: 2 Jul 2012, 05:10 am »
Thats a tight room.  I would suggest the Super V from Gr Research.  Open Baffle servo Bass would work very well in a small room like that.  Open baffle will create a super sound stage in that room.   \


ThuanDB

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Re: Reviewing my DAC 4800a/Cherry Jr.
« Reply #18 on: 30 Oct 2012, 05:44 am »
Enjoyed reading your review, thanks.

I've found JPLAY as a software music player recently and love it.  You might want to try it.  Good luck with your search for better speakers.

Cheers!

Zynec

Re: Reviewing my DAC 4800a/Cherry Jr.
« Reply #19 on: 31 Oct 2012, 11:08 pm »
Enjoyed reading your review, thanks.

I've found JPLAY as a software music player recently and love it.  You might want to try it.  Good luck with your search for better speakers.

Cheers!

Thanks Thuan.  I've actually tried Jplay previously, and I did not like it at all.  Go figure!

I will be moving (yet again!) sometime around the new year, so I've held of from investigating speakers, but hopefully early next year the time will come (at which point i'll update this thread).