AudioCircle
Audio/Video Gear and Systems => The Lab => Topic started by: GBB on 29 Jan 2008, 05:00 am
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Well it's winter time even here in California, meaning it's time to be inside soldering away while mother nature does her thing.
This past weekend I finally got around to building Occam's latest inspiration, the Felix line conditioner. Take a look at this thread for more details on the Felix:
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=25757.0 (http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=25757.0)
Knowing that it was inspired by the Audience Adept, I was expecting good things and I was not disappointed. Here are the parts that I used:
--- Coilcraft P3717-A CMC, available on Coilcraft's website
--- I used X1 rated polypro caps from Digikey in values of 1uf, 0.1uf, and 0.01uf on each side of the CMC
--- Part numbers are BC1576-ND, BC1587-ND, and BC1588-ND - Vishay/BC 440VAC X1 rated caps
Remember to use fuses as well. And remember that you are dealing with AC line voltages which can be lethal. Only attempt a project like this if you know what you're doing.
I built the Felix into a small box that I bought at the local Fry's and then soldered line cord to both ends. It's a metal box so I lined the inside with dynamat to make sure there was no chance of shorting things out. I terminated one end with an AC plug and the other end with a female AC receptacle, both of which I got at the local Lowe's. I'm sure you could play with fancier connectors and more expensive capacitors but this combination already does quite well and sounds really great. Here are a few pictures of my Felix along with some parts for a 2nd yet to be built Felix.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=13357)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=13358)
As soon as I finished it, I put it into use with my modified Squeezebox 3 and I found a somewhat interesting result. I've long been a proponent of linear supplies for the SB3, finding them a significant improvement over the stock switching supplies. Well with the Felix I got a different result. The combination of the Felix and the stock switching supply sounds outstanding and in fact it sounds better than either the linear supply on its own or the linear supply and the Felix combination. I'm not sure I can explain why this is true but it's an obvious difference.
I did find that there was a difference which way the switching supply was plugged into the Felix. The switcher isn't polarized so you can plug it in either way. One way sounds obviously better. One theory that has floated around for a while is that part of the reason people liked linear supplies better is that the switcher could be injected noise back onto the AC and degrading the sound of other components. The Felix will stop that from happening and maybe that's all that's needed.
So there you have it - a recipe for outstanding digital sound with a very modest investment. The Felix probably cost me $30. The Squeezebox lists for $299 although I got mine cheaper than that at one of Slim Devices semiannual sales. And I spent perhaps $50 modifying it as documented in another thread on this Circle. This combination absolutely competes with much more expensive set ups. No expensive transport, no expensive digital cables, no expensive DACs. Just really good sound.
Happy listening.
---Gary
p.s. A big thanks to Occam for the design and to Gordy for the push to get started on this project.
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Hi Gary
Interesting findings.
I remember reading a thread somewhere, maybe at the slim devices forum where someone was talking about the noise the SB switcher put back into his system, but I don't remember the details.
Still, I am surprised that the felix and switcher are better than the felix and your linear. :scratch:
Randy
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I am not sure quality difference but X2 rated Panasonic capacitors are a lot easier to deal with, they have leads on them and the shape is not as big either I believe.
I to find it hard to believe that your linear does not sound as nice. Perhaps your linear suffers from too much voltage drop under load somehow?
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Gary,
Did you align and solder these components on a pcb board in parallel like Occam suggestion? If it is possible would you post a detail pictures that you built the Felix in the aluminum box? Thanks in advance.
Regards,
Tan
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Interesting findings . . . I am surprised that the felix and switcher are better than the felix and your linear. :scratch:
Randy - me too. It's such an unexpected result that I thought it important to share it. It's actually good news since switching supplies are "greener" which is always a good thing. Someone asked if I was using the stock walwart and the answer is yes - this is the small switcher you get when you buy the Squeezebox.
I to find it hard to believe that your linear does not sound as nice . . .
DoS - feel free to not believe me, but I'm not making this up.
In fact, I'd actually be more comfortable if you ignored this thread. Your history of DIY makes me nervous that you might hurt yourself if you tried a project like this. Do us all a favor and don't try this at home.
Did you align and solder these components on a pcb board in parallel like Occam suggestion? If it is possible would you post a detail pictures that you built the Felix in the aluminum box?
Tan - I didn't bother using a PCB board for this. I hooked the CMC to the 1uf caps with some 18 gauge bus wire and then hooked up all the other components directly to this bus wire. I hot glued the components to the box and then wired the inlet and outlet cables. I again used hot glue as strain relief where the wires enter the box so there is no chance of pulling the cord and moving wires around.
If you want to discuss construction in more detail, it might be better to move this to the main Felix thread:
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=25757.0 (http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=25757.0)
---Gary
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I actually find your outcome quite interesting and neat. Switchers are nice in the fact that they are green but they also regulate the voltage quite often (or nearly always? I'm not sure as I am not a power engineer).
I've often wondered if the reason why linears outperform switchers is wholly the noise part and if dealt with appropriately would solve the issue. I do know that the Felix did wonders for my DEQX, which has a swithcher internally.
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Gary,
If you try your Felix with the SB used as a transport feeding an external dac, I'd certainly be interested in your evaluation.
I realize you feel the definitive use of the SB is to do the straitforward mods you so generously shared, obviating the need for an external dac -
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=49342.0
but for those of us who already have a dac we like, and are too old and decrepit to do smd rework :( , it provides yet another option.
TIA,
Paul
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Thank you so much for posting your findings Gary! It's great to hear that others are building the Felix's and liking them 8) It would be very cool to hear your thoughts as you add them to your other supplies as well.
I now have six in my system, a 10a in each of my SKA300 amps supplies, two 3a externals feeding my Olive Symphony, a 3a in my Twisted Pear Bipolar supply feeding my P3a dac and another in my Aikido pre's supply. I've an all poly cap Felix built but, not installed yet, for the output of the Aikido's 12v DC filament supply as per a Lynn Olsen suggestion.
Tan et al,
Paul mentioned in another thread that it would be ideal to keep the leads of the .01Uf cap as short as possible, that is, directly across the cmc leads.
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Tan et al,
Paul mentioned in another threads that it would be ideal to keep the leads of the .01Uf cap as short as possible, that is, directly across the cmc leads.
Thanks to all of your kindness (Gary, JoshK, Occam and Gordy).
Your helps are worth in this thread. I have also learned a lot in this and other thread especially the Lab. I will have questions about if I can build the Felix in any audio component's PS (battery or AC?). I have been using quite a few power conditioners and I did not really like the sound of my system. It is kind of constricted sound. So adding the Felix to the power conditioner would that be help? Thanks.
Tan
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Thanks Gary, you've pushed me over the edge into finally building a felix. :|
Will that CMC pass enough current to feed a power amp or should it be used only for components with low current draw?
Russ
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Neato. I went back and started reading the thread you linked. Very cool. Definitely worth trying it out. I too have been linear PS proponent for SB, now I gotta hear what you have found!! Thanks Gary. Looks like a nice clean job too.
Josh, I really like your new avatar. It's one of those you wish you could click and magnify... A little different from the last one? ;) haha
Rich
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Thanks Gary, you've pushed me over the edge into finally building a felix. :|
Will that CMC pass enough current to feed a power amp or should it be used only for components with low current draw?
Russ
Russ,
The 3717a that Gary used is rated at 3a only. For power amps you'll want to use either the 10a rated 4018a or the 17a Miller which is linked to the Mouser source in the other thread. The Miller cmc is the one used in all the demo's at the NY Rave demo's over the last year or so.
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I think that we should remind other builders that:
a) The Squeezebox does not draw very much current.
b) Gary has carefully placed as many components in a small box as possible.
c) The Dynamat inside the box will inhibit cooling.
So if your systems draws more power get a bigger box!
And don't forget to safety ground it.
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valuable thread thx
what i do not see are the values of the cmc's with the caps you mention their value's in uF but the cmc have also many values between mH - uH or is the value you merely look at the amperage? So you then take the highest value in mH which you can choose from with a certain amperage?
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valuable thread thx
what i do not see are the values of the cmc's with the caps you mention their value's in uF but the cmc have also many values between mH - uH or is the value you merely look at the amperage? So you then take the highest value in mH which you can choose from with a certain amperage?
I listed the CMC part number. A quick google search would have turned up the following data from Coilcraft's website. Use the CMC with the appropriate ratings for your application. As others have noted, the current draw of the Squeezebox is minimal, so the 3717 seemed like the right choice here.
---Gary
Common Diff. DCR Volt. Amp.
Mode L Mode L
P3717-A 25.0 1000 0.30 1500 3
Q4007-A 4.5 150 0.06 1500 5
Q4018-A 1.5 35 0.02 1500 10
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FWIW, I built a Felix into my Squeezbox PSU (linear) and I used the 3717. I did this some time ago. What I haven't done was install a switch to bypass the Felix to compare with and without as I built the PSU with the Felix in, so the results are the results of both.
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the DCR rating of the P3717-A 0.3 R seems relatively high for a psu where the the lesser is the better.
If you would parallel 2x P3717-A would that lower the mH?
how did you order? I understand you have to order a tray of 6 units as a minimum?
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Note: Please do not abuse the free samples from Coilcraft or they, like many other parts manufacturers, will quit fulfilling the small orders from the hobbyists. Then you do a disservice to all of us diy'ers out there. They are cheap and they do allow small quantities, so don't be cheap yourself and pay for them.
Sorry if that is totally obvious, but it needs to be said as abuse of free samples has spoiled a lot of good services diy'ers enjoyed in our forums. If you want to order less than the minimum quantity, order the minimum and then post on one of these threads that you have extras and someone is likely to take them off your hands. Its not that big of a risk @ $6/ea.
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Note: Please do not abuse the free samples from Coilcraft or they, like many other parts manufacturers, will quit fulfilling the small orders from the hobbyists. Then you do a disservice to all of us diy'ers out there. They are cheap and they do allow small quantities, so don't be cheap yourself and pay for them.
Sorry if that is totally obvious, but it needs to be said as abuse of free samples has spoiled a lot of good services diy'ers enjoyed in our forums. If you want to order less than the minimum quantity, order the minimum and then post on one of these threads that you have extras and someone is likely to take them off your hands. Its not that big of a risk @ $6/ea.
JoshK
I would totally agree with you and do not mean to attrack to people who want "free sample." Hence I ordered one. That is coilcraft offering though. Please do not misunderstand me. Thanks.
Tan
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Note: Please do not abuse the free samples from Coilcraft or they, like many other parts manufacturers, will quit fulfilling the small orders from the hobbyists. Then you do a disservice to all of us diy'ers out there. They are cheap and they do allow small quantities, so don't be cheap yourself and pay for them.
Sorry if that is totally obvious, but it needs to be said as abuse of free samples has spoiled a lot of good services diy'ers enjoyed in our forums. If you want to order less than the minimum quantity, order the minimum and then post on one of these threads that you have extras and someone is likely to take them off your hands. Its not that big of a risk @ $6/ea.
JoshK
I would totally agree with you and do not mean to attrack to people who want "free sample." Hence I ordered one. That is coilcraft offering though. Please do not misunderstand me. Thanks.
Tan
I didn't think you did anything wrong, but since you mentioned the free samples, I felt it was obligatory to plead for us and any lurkers to not abuse this angle.
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First of all, let me say how much I appreciate the interest people have shown in this thread and the very nice private messages that I've gotten regarding this project. That said, I'm going to have to request that people not ask me for a blow by blow description of how one can build one's own version.
I've been talking to Occam / Paul about the many requests we've been getting for more details on how to build the Felix. Quite a few folks have asked for pictures of the inside of the Felix to aid in the construction.
After bouncing this around, we've decided to politely decline and not post any pictures. Our reasoning is that if someone needs anything beyond a schematic to build it, then they shouldn't be attempting it. The Felix involves potentially very harmful AC voltages. If one isn't comfortable building it with just the schematic, then it's an indication that you may be in over your head and shouldn't try to build it.
If you go back to the original Felix thread, the reason that Paul didn't provide specific detailed plans was based upon his experience with the prior Felicia project. On that project, he answered specific build questions, both on thread and in PM, and it ended up taking hundreds of hours of his time. It is unreasonable to expect such hand holding from Paul or me.
So all we can offer you is the schematic which has been redrawn to shown exactly what I built.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=13562)
If you can't build a Felix from the schematic alone, you shouldn't be taking on this project.
All the best.
---Gary
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Thanks Gary,
I'm going to order the parts today. Your schematic is very clear and unless one has absolutely no inclination to learn about the details of electronic construction, the build should be no problem. It would be great if this filter would render optional the need for a very expensive Squeezebox power supply for quite and clear sound quality.
-Roy
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Works for me. Thanks Gary & Paul.
Russ
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Gary,
Am one of the guilty persons who have either sent PM's or posts to Occam about the Felix and Felicia.
Any feedback or suggestions is always greatly appreciated.
You people willingly provide the DIY circle with so much information, which as you stated takes up a whole lot of your personal time.
You probably know this already, but the original Felix used .47uf x rates caps on the C1 and C4 positions; with the typical 1/5 - 1/20 prior value bypass caps.
It also used the 2.3amp J.W. Miller 8109 CMC.
Anyone interested in this can view the original plans in the Felix Project thread.
In lieu of the "free samples" currently being offered, the J.W. Miller CMC's work extremely well and are fairly cheap; in relation to what the JR filters use.
Cheers.
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The combination of the Felix and the stock switching supply sounds outstanding and in fact it sounds better than either the linear supply on its own or the linear supply and the Felix combination. I'm not sure I can explain why this is true but it's an obvious difference.
What linear supply were you using?
Did the linear sound better than the stock switching supply before the addition of the Felix?
PS- The Felix isn't anything new, MauiMods.com has been installing a similar line filter in their TacT mods for over two years.
PPS- Anyone who can't solder, can purchase an off the shelf line filter like the ones from Schurter and get similar
results.
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What linear supply were you using?
Did the linear sound better than the stock switching supply before the addition of the Felix?
Dan / jhm731,
Welcome to the thread.
Yes - the linear supply sounded better than the stock switching supply before the addition of the Felix.
The linear supply is a fairly hefty surplus one that I picked up. To put it in context it's probably similar to some of the Elpac's that folks may be familiar with. I upgraded with better quality diodes and caps but it's still fairly basic. I've got an even better supply, an old HP lab supply that I need to haul out and use for another comparison when I get the time.
Regarding off the shelf filters, I've found that they are not close to the quality that the Felix delivers. Have you actually built a Felix and done the comparison?
---Gary
p.s. You might want to cut down on the ads for your friends - they don't really belong here. And if you have some sort of professional interest in all this then you should note the Audiocircle rules for people in the audio industry. http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=42858.0 (http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=42858.0)
Please don't discuss this further here - this is just fyi.
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Gary-
I'm not in the "audio industy."
I built line filters similar to the Felix over two years ago to replace the filtered PEMs in my TacT gear.
Yes, I think they're better than the off the shelf units.
BTW, here's another option for people that don't want to mess with a soldering iron:
http://www.exactpower.com/products/epds/index.html
The EPDS also has line filters which are similar to the Felix, but uses custom made parts.
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I don't think I'd call results with a Schurter similar to a Felix.
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I would think that people that "don't want to mess with a soldering iron" aren't visiting The Lab much.
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Who would want to purchase Exact Power EPDS here is the retail price:
http://www.tube-pod.com/vendor/index.cfm?vid=1
I would not. My felix costs less than $70.00.
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I would think that people that "don't want to mess with a soldering iron" aren't visiting The Lab much.
I don't know if thats true Jim....I read every post here and find it very interesting....and I've never built anything. :?
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kryrill,
What are you trying to do, discourage the DIY approach? This is the Lab circle. It seems that DIY should be encouraged not only as a way to save $s but as a learning experience.
-Roy
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I would think that people that "don't want to mess with a soldering iron" aren't visiting The Lab much.
I don't know if thats true Jim....I read every post here and find it very interesting....and I've never built anything. :?
Right Chris, but you're also not suggesting retail "alternatives". This Circle is all about DIY, afaik.
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kryrill,
What are you trying to do, discourage the DIY approach? :nono: This is the Lab circle. It seems that DIY should be encouraged not only as a way to save $s but as a learning experience.
-Roy
No Roy dont mess with facts :nono: DIY is not a religion to withhold any fact that somehow doesn't fit the ideology
DiY is very nice but mostly borne out of the need to save money
i strongly belief 80% of DIY will divert their skills to something else if they can have their "object of desire" cheaper with the same quality if bought in a retail store
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......
No Roy don't mess with facts :nono: DIY is not a religion to withhold any fact that somehow doesn't fit the ideology
DiY is very nice but mostly borne out of the need to save money
i strongly belief 80% of DIY will divert their skills to something else if they can have their "object of desire" cheaper with the same quality if bought in a retail store
Kyrill,
Don't presume.... [and to everybody, please DON'T use that wagging finger smiley in the Lab Circle unless its to save others from physical danger. Its downright patronizing and does nothing but antangonize] I don't diy to save money, I diy because I enjoy it, and get better performance. I believe Gary is in a similar position. He owns a Transporter, but prefers to apply his considerable engineering skills to bring his SB, by his metrics, to provide performance levels beyond that what he gets on his Transporter. The turn of this thread only serves confirm that no good deed goes unpunished.
The fact that folks here hijack GBB's thread to tout their friend's products, speaks well for their loyalty, but also belies their limited understanding of filter theory/implementation. If one doesn't understand the tradeoffs between current capability and filter efficacy, after repeated efforts to explain, I've done my best, and see no need from either myself or Gary to belabor the point. Indeed, the Lab Circle is about DIY, but it is ALSO about theory. I try to discuss theory, but most folks don't seem willing to make the effort.
This thread is now restricted to discussion of Gary's design. If you're not willing to build it, or confine your comments to that specific design, feel free to post on another thread. I'll take out my pruning shears. :evil:
FWIW,
Paul, as Facilitator of the Lab Circle
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The information is here for those who wish to see/use it. There will be those who, like Kyrill, think it'll never stack up to a commercial product. If it makes them feel better to believe such, than to each his own.
Most DIY'ers I know, may or may not have started out diy'ing because of the money (typically as an engineering studend in college) but it quickly goes much beyond that. But this isn't a thread about the motivations of DIY'ers. it is about the efficacy of the Felix with the SB.
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I'll contact the vendor on Monday and apprise them of the situation. If they can't sell onesies, twosies to the public, I'll try to arrange a group buy.
Paul,
If you do arrange a group buy, I'll take 6 of them.
Mike
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I'd be in for a few more, but I am not chompin at the bit though.
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This is a picture of my Felix:
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=13424)
Thanks to JoshK, Occam and Gary to post this possibility of easy-to-built project. I am enjoying my sweet musics. Just for now testing with CI VDC-SB+Modded SB3. Will test with switch PS and DIY Linear PS.
Best regards,
Tan
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This is a picture of my Felix . . .
Just for now testing with CI VDC-SB+Modded SB3. Will test with switch PS and DIY PS.
Tan,
Nice work and thanks for sharing the picture of your latest creation.
I look forward to hearing the results of your listening tests.
---Gary
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Gee I 'm a fish out of water here in this circle...one thing for sure - I won't be building a Felix... BUT:
JoshK, you caught my attention with this:
I do know that the Felix did wonders for my DEQX, which has a swithcher internally.
So my question is... how long would it typically take make one one of these? IE would it be worth while paying someone to make one for me - (sorry if these seems "offensive" or just plain ironic to any DIY'ers)
Also JoshK did you use the same schematic that Gary posted?
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My schematic is the same except i used .47 instead of 1uf. I didn't experiment to see what was best.
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because of this thread i am building 6 outlets for myself, thx GBB
dont get me wrong
i love the technical expertise of Occam, GBB, Mike, Pat and others ( Steve Eddy) and especially their willingness to share it,
which i think is great and also initiate dynamic and mostly very very interesting threads
But for every one of you who have the knowledge and skill and enjoyment of building, there are so much more others reading and not able to understand properly and/or to do DIY for some or all projects or even don't enjoy doing it, but cannot enjoy otherwise the functions of the accomplished projects.
So i believe to show from time to time to the multiple many anonymous readers ( as they didn't post) an affordable finished alternative if there is any. NOT a sign of disrespect to the engineers who share their ideas/approaches of projects. How could that be? This is not the same as assuming that in those cases products of friends are "pushed" that would not be proper. At least my 2 cents
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What type of Wal-Wart switching adapters does everyone have for their Squeezebox? I have two. One puts out 1600ma and the other 2a. The 1600ma one also can do 250v. I wonder which one would sound better. I looked inside both and the 1600ma one has an X1 capacitor for noise already, and a heatsink, where as the 2a has no heatsink for the diode. The 1600ma just looks a little nicer inside, but having 2a could be better?
Has anyone considered getting a schematic of these things and modifying them to go with their Felix? I would imagine just a couple of capacitor replacements and putting in a super fast diode would do a lot.
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Tan,
Very cool 8)
Congrats, :thumb:
Paul
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I am going to have to do a test with an adjustable linear vs. switcher when my Felix box is done. Would it be worth it to make a separate Felix for the Squeezebox I wonder? Meh I have had the parts for a Felix since back when I had money, might as well not be thinking too far ahead to money. Wait I take that back I got no capacitors.
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from an EE point view this maybe a stupid question
but i am eager to learn
IS it possible to use this Felix behind a switchin pws?
I know the SWPS produces DC and the Felix is designed for AC
but the choke passes DC. Would it then filter the SWPS garbage in the DC output?
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kyrill,
You've raised an excellent point. :thumb:
I went towards your direction here -
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=47736.msg427758;topicseen#msg427758
where I suggested using a Felix to filter the output of a wallwart's ac voltage, and mentioned the potential benefits, specifically the benefits of the filter feeding a higher load.
Gary and I have discussed filtering the DC output previously. Great minds think alike.... :wink:
On the dc output of a SB supply, you still have those conditions of current going in equals current going out, and therefore the a Felix type conditioner should be effective. You'll also be able to use non X rated caps as it wouldn't be filtering high AC voltages, larger values of capacitance are feasible given the load, and even small properly oriented electrolytics. On a dc side filter, you could ditch that filter's input caps.
I'd still recommend building the Felix exactly as Gary laid out. Better the devil you know....
But certainly, afterwards, a post ps filter might bring substantial benefits, either in combination with the AC filtering, and potentially, without.
The 3 amp rating of Gary's CMC should easily handle the nominal 1 amp load of the SB.
I do hope you've bought more than one of the CMCs.
Looking forward to your evaluation,
Paul
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ok
I will use one as well for my Blu ray player and JVC projector and digital TV setup box and my DEQX preamp
that will make 8
i read yr links carefully and must buy more CMC's I have 6 now, but can use another 3-4
do I have to half the 3A the coilcraft CMC can have because i feed it with 230V? Nowhere in the specs of the coils I can find for what Voltage (115V or 230V) it is designed for. Or can it have both with 3A?
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ok
I will use one as well for my Blu ray player and JVC projector and digital TV setup box and my DEQX preamp
that will make 8
i read yr links carefully and must buy more CMC's I have 6 now, but can use another 3-4
do I have to half the 3A the coilcraft CMC can have because i feed it with 230V? Nowhere in the specs of the coils I can find for what Voltage (115V or 230V) it is designed for. Or can it have both with 3A?
Kyrill,
I have succeed installing the walwart stock PS in the Felix PS box (two in one) to eliminate the receptacle and plug with wires. My Felix (based on Gary model's) sounds very very nice. However, IMO I replaced the Vishay 1.0mF/440V at main out (before walwart) with a Sonicap GenI 1.0mF/1200V. My musics have extremely improved I have never believed.
My next Felix project is a dual CMC in one box with a dual receptacles (better quality one I have in hand like FIM or Hubbell...). Will post pictures later on. Good luck.
Tan
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kyrill,
All the CMC chokes mentioned, both the Colilcrafts and JW Millers are rated for use on 240vac mains. It also means that your components are drawing half the current that they would be in North America, 120vac. This means you can potentially run an arbitrary lower current rated by higher inductance CMC that could offer more filtering.
Tan,
Congratulations on your builds that meet (and hopefully exceed) your expectations.
Its an awkward situation when you mention the use of non X rated caps in AC line filters. I can't deny that the use of non approved caps for either X or Y use, might provide better results that caps approved for that use. You, yourself must weigh the tradeoffs between potentially improved performance against whatever safety issues as well as potential impact on liability and insurance claims in the event of a fire or electrocution, regardless of the causal factors.
Some of the vendors of bespoke conditioners, like Audience, and I believe Running Springs use such non approved for their use caps. They've made their own judgements, and I'll leave it at that.
Don't even consider not using fuses on conditioners with non rated caps, even if the current ratings of the inductive components exceed the rating of the mains circuit.
Regards to all,
Paul
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Its an awkward situation when you mention the use of non X rated caps in AC line filters. I can't deny that the use of non approved caps for either X or Y use, might provide better results that caps approved for that use. You, yourself must weigh the tradeoffs between potentially improved performance against whatever safety issues as well as potential impact on liability and insurance claims in the event of a fire or electrocution, regardless of the causal factors.
Some of the vendors of bespoke conditioners, like Audience, and I believe Running Springs use such non approved for their use caps. They've made their own judgements, and I'll leave it at that.
Don't even consider not using fuses on conditioners with non rated caps, even if the current ratings of the inductive components exceed the rating of the mains circuit.
Paul,
Do you think that I use only Sonicap to replace Vishay at the main out before walwart would not be safe? (is this a joke again?) I actually could not squeeze the walwart PS into a small enclosure with the Felix inside since Vishay 1.0mF at main is too big. This is only for a purpose of testing how much different would the sound be between Felix + walwart inside and Felix + 2xplugs + walwart PS. This project will properly and safely be redone soon. :wink:
Tan
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Tan,
No, I'm not saying that the Sonicap you used is unsafe. I'm saying that the Sonicap has not been certified by an approved ETL (Electrical Testing Laboratory) for use as an X2 capacitor. Nor have the 600v Auricaps in 120v countries, or 1200v Auricaps in 240vac countries used by Audience in their Adept power conditioners.
I'll simply say that the use of non approved capacitors in a power conditioner at line voltages makes me uncomfortable. The use of film and foil unapproved capacitors, as opposed to unapproved metalized film caps (like those specific Auricaps and Sonicaps) would make me very, very uncomfortable, as they lack the self healing characteristics of metalized film or paper caps.
FWIW,
Paul
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Well, I fired up the soldering iron for the first time in many years and built Gary's version of the Felix on breadboard and stuffed it into a cheap Ratshack plastic box. I am using a Bolder modified SB2 through the analog outs.
I have been listening to the results for a couple of hours, and I have to say I like the stock Squeezebox switcher plugged into the Felix more than I like either of my linear supplies. I have a Bolder Basic PS and a modified Elpac WM220 and to me Felix sounds fuller with better bass, and cleaner treble. In comparison, the linear power supplies sound a little soft. I'm really surprised at the result.
My wife agrees with my assessment and prefers the Felix. She was even more surprised that something I built sounds better than a commercial product.
I have to thank Paul and Gary for their work on this project. For ~$45-50 in parts and a couple of hours time, this is a no brainer.
Mike Fox
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Well, I fired up the soldering iron for the first time in many years and built Gary's version of the Felix on breadboard and stuffed it into a cheap Ratshack plastic box. I am using a Bolder modified SB2 through the analog outs.
I have been listening to the results for a couple of hours, and I have to say I like the stock Squeezebox switcher plugged into the Felix more than I like either of my linear supplies. I have a Bolder Basic PS and a modified Elpac WM220 and to me Felix sounds fuller with better bass, and cleaner treble. In comparison, the linear power supplies sound a little soft. I'm really surprised at the result.
My wife agrees with my assessment and prefers the Felix. She was even more surprised that something I built sounds better than a commercial product.
I have to thank Paul and Gary for their work on this project. For ~$45-50 in parts and a couple of hours time, this is a no brainer.
Mike Fox
Hi Mike,
Does your Felix and stock switghing PS run hot or warm? I built mine in an aluminum box (from Fry's electronics) and it is very cool. My Newava's modded SB3 is sounding much more details and clean deep punchy bass with a very sweet midrange (with my tube gears). :thumb: :banana piano:
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=13621)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=13620)
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Well, I fired up the soldering iron for the first time in many years and built Gary's version of the Felix . . . this is a no brainer.
Mike,
Congratulations on the new Felix. It's good to hear that others are able to replicate what I heard on my system. Thanks for taking the time to write in.
Does your Felix and stock switching PS run hot or warm?
Tan,
My Felix / switching power supply also runs very cool. It's not even warm to the touch.
---Gary
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hi Paul and Gary
i finished two. still 4 to go but could not do a listening yet as i build them inside my blue ray player and one in my video power bar
what i could notice is that my JVC HD1 ( a digital lcd projector) had rock solid images. Many subtle improvements but one not so subtle, rock stable picture. even close to the screen so 10 inches not one wavering bit, not one little micro movement when i froze the picture As if i was looking at an analogue projection ( except the very small mosquito screen door effect at 10 inches..)before that i could see at 10 inches distant a faint micro movement, a little "nervousness" within the pixels. Very impressive
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Hey!
First I want to take my hat off for Gary/GBB and Paul/Occam for bringing this excellent and affordable project to everyone here. :D
I've been observing this thread since it was posted by Gary/GBB. I have to say that right now I'm very tempted to make one. From what I've read it seem like this project will be a great cadinate for Video and TV systems like DVD players and smaller LCD TV set. It is mostly likely that these type of components also have switch mode power supply.
Anyway, I wish I knew about this before I bought the cheappy Monster Cable conditioner for my LCD and DVD player :roll: But maybe I will built one or two (my 27" LCD dawn about 240 watts) for my LCD and DVD player and see. :D
Thanks guys for sharing this. :D
Take care,
Buddy :thumb:
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First I want to take my hat off for Gary/GBB and Paul/Occam for bringing this excellent and affordable project to everyone here.
Buddy,
You're welcome. I think your suggestion of trying the Felix out on DVD players and other equipment having switching supplies is great. It will definitely have a big impact on many items like that.
I've noticed a lot of discussion on the other Felix thread about building circuit boards to make it easier to build a Felix. While I applaud that effort, I personally don't think it's needed. You can easily wire these things up point to point. Here are a couple of pictures to make the point. I bought a few more of the Coilcraft CMCs as seen here:
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=13627)
I solder on a few inches of 18 gauge bus wire to each connection of the CMC and then hook the caps up to the bus wire as shown here.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=13626)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=13628)
I then hot glue this to the bottom of the enclosure and wire it up to the fuse and then wire up the input and output power connections. Its really not necessary to have a circuit board for something like this. The Serpac case that someone mentioned seem like a good fit. I bought some of the type 153 at the local Fry's for this round.
----Gary
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Its really not necessary to have a circuit board for something like this.
Nope, not necessary at all, I just have a thing for making it super neat and clean. Point to point is more compact, cheaper and pretty easy for this project.
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Point to point is more compact, cheaper and pretty easy for this project.
You forgot sounds better aa .
---Gary
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In answer to the earlier question by Tan, my Felix runs cool to the touch. I also agree with Gary that a circuit board really isn't necessary, and the breadboard I used wasn't needed either, but made the end result look a little neater.
I'm looking forward to how this little thing will sound once the caps get some break-in time on them.
Tan - I also like your all in one box with the wall wart inside. Maybe I'll re-do mine to copy that.
Mike Fox
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Tan - I also like your all in one box with the wall wart inside. Maybe I'll re-do mine to copy that.
Mike,
You need to have a little bigger box than my aluminum box in the picture before you attempt to put Felix (as Gary's picture) and a stock switching PS in (DO NOT try to squeeze them in)
Tan
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PCB board does allow for easier, safer, mounting however. I do not plan on using one, but for some folks it might be preferable.
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As you may recall, I built Gary's implementation of the Felix for my SB ps, and am really enjoying it, prefering it over the linear power supplies I had before.
I'm thinking about trying to build a Felix after the Squeezebox switching ps, on the DC side, to complement the one I built on the AC side, based on previous discussion of this idea. Has anyone implemented this, and if so, what were the values of the CMC and capacitors you used? And what were the listening results?
Also, what do you guys think about parts for this project -
Should I use the Coilcraft P3717-A CMC or 30 mh 2.3A JWMiller 8109 CMC?
For caps Paul (Occam) suggested in an earlier thread using a Jantzen 400vdc CrossCap .47uf paralleled with a .1uf on both sides of the CMC. Any other suggestions?
Thanks in advance for any help.
Mike Fox
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I am still running a (nice) linear power supply with a filter (can check my topic about it). It is not a Felix but...
TO ANYONE CONSIDERING SOME TYPE OF FILTERING IT IS WORTH IT IN A WAY THAT USUALLY WOULD COST HUNDREDS OF DOLLARS TO GAIN THE DETAIL YOU MAY POTENTIALLY GET FROM SOME FILTERING!
The subtle jump, is really huge, in the difference in sound. As far as small noticeable things, stuff that is detail that most of the time is not trying to be approached for realistic function of increasing, even on commercial expensive stuff, I have had no bigger change than filtering. Now sonically that is an entirely different story as all my capacitors in signal are Blackgates with the exception of two Sonicaps, and nice wires, big differences, but in different ways. Also filtering has smooth out most of the sound, the Squeezebox DAC shines a lot more as far as being smooth. I am much more inclined to just sit and listen to an entire album as if it where vinyl due to the ease of listening. I did before but it was more of a technological experience from enjoying aspects of terms like imaging, dynamics, etc, not so much just pleasing to the ear until now. Granted I did listen to music for sweet beats, lyrics, riffs, etc, too, now it is just soothing.
I have not tried the switcher just because my linear PS is so nice I have trouble believing that the massive gains from my linear PS before filtering would somehow be lost and recreated much stronger with a switcher. I have looked in the switcher and frankly it does not have the beans to match a very nice linear PS, from what I can tell. Now a few modifications to a switcher might make it worth your wild. My switcher already has a noise suppression cap in it for instance. However some fast switching diodes and new capacitors, especially a large bank for the output would be appealing. However while I am not sure, someone else can confirm or disconfirm, that the single little diodes probably could not feed some large banks of capacitors.
My linear has four large surface mount transistors (to heatsink), multiple diodes, etc.... (adjustable to 15v) so the huge capacitor bank is backed up well.
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i was pondering on Gary's observation that a basic but good linear pws sounds ( with or without Felix) less than the original; cheap SW PWS with the Felix in the AC line..
He assumed logically that SW PWS negative effects were "blocked" in a way by the Felix to enter the other audio components.
Suppose you do the Felix in the 5V line. It will "block" all the unwanted interference from the Ac line PLUS the unwanted effects from the SW PWS for the SB3 but will not stop those SW effects for the rest of the audio components
If now the SW PWS still sound better than the linear PWS, another explanation must be found than Gary's original assumption. If not, the assumption is proven to be fact, no?
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i was pondering on Gary's observation that a basic but good linear pws sounds ( with or without Felix) less than the original; cheap SW PWS with the Felix in the AC line..
He assumed logically that SW PWS negative effects were "blocked" in a way by the Felix to enter the other audio components.
Suppose you do the Felix in the 5V line. It will "block" all the unwanted interference from the Ac line PLUS the unwanted effects from the SW PWS for the SB3 but will not stop those SW effects for the rest of the audio components
If now the SW PWS still sound better than the linear PWS, another explanation must be found than Gary's original assumption. If not, the assumption is proven to be fact, no?
If we can assume that a Felix on either side of the switching power supply blocks unwanted interference from getting into the AC line and from getting into the Squeezebox, unless the SW PS is radiating RFI, how else can the interference get into the other components?
Mike Fox
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as i understand it the Felix cannot block SW noise entering the other audio components when placed after/behind the SW PWS, so when placed in the 5V line
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Oh, I was thinking about 2 Felixes used at once, before and after the SW PS to block both sides.
Using only 1 on the DC side might be an interesting experiment. For me, all of my components are plugged into a PS Audio Quintet, so I think that is already a big help on the AC side.
If anyone has read my earlier post (5 posts before this one) I'm still looking for advice on components to use for a Felix on the DC side....
Mike Fox
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Hi Mike
on the DC side you dont change the Felix, But because it is low voltages DC all danger is considerably lessened. So you can experiment with (much) better sounding film caps ( auricap, Mundorf or the Platinum Gen 1l) or even expensive teflons
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Mike,
I am doing Felix before and after switching PS (5VC first then 9VDC for Duet) in a few days. Let see what will happen to the sound.
Tan
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Hi Tan,
Looking forward to your results. Let us know what you end up building on the DC side.
Mike Fox
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Mike,
I am doing Felix before and after switching PS (5VC first then 9VDC for Duet) in a few days. Let see what will happen to the sound.
Tan
Hi Tan
any news in how it sounds?
kyrill
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Has anyone measured the effects of 0.6 A DC through one of those CMCs???
No.............didn't think so.
Pat
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hi Pat
Where does this DC comes from?
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Where does this DC comes from?
I think he's referencing using a Felix style filter between a DC power source and the device, as people are discussing in this thread.
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Has anyone measured the effects of 0.6 A DC through one of those CMCs???
No.............didn't think so.
Pat
Hey Pat,
Good to see you haven't given up you curmudgeonly ways.
Think again.... and realize its not being used as differential mode choke, but a cmc.
Then again, iff'n you forget to hook up the return coil (or hook it up backwards), you magnetize it, and you've got to demagnetize it with a variac, sorta like us old folks did with bulk tape erasers :wink:.
Nice to see you posting,
Paul
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Hi P&P
can you elaborate on this? What are you suggesting?
what should we do if we use it in a DC line? hooking backwards? :bowdown:
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kyrill,
A cmc is simply 2 equal coils wound on the same permeable core. Its configured such that magnetic flux generated by a current flow imposed on one coil is canceled by the flux imposed on the second (return) coil (save for its leakage inductance). When fed by a single ended or balanced signal, AC or DC, the fluxes cancel,(assuming you've wired it correctly, save for that previously mentioned leakage inductance. When presented with a common mode signal, those fluxes add presenting a large inductance. But note, that inductance provides a frequency dependant impedance which is exactly what we want; that impedance increases with frequency, attenuating hf noise.
That leakage inductance, to whatever extent present, provides a frequency dependent attenuation of differential/transverse mode noise, increasing in impedance with increasing freqency. Along with 'across the line', X caps, it forms a 2nd order low pass filter.
Regards,
Paul
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thx paul
so what may we expect when we use the felix b e h i n d the PWS in a for instance, 0.6 A DC ?
If i assume through the lines of Pat, he did measure a bare cmc in a 0.6A DC, and measured "something"
Dear Pat what did you measure?
Kyrill
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...and then all fell quiet... :scratch: (maybe it was restarted in another thread?)
Did anyone ever get around to trying a Felix setup in between the 5VDC power supply and the SB? Did it work/sound good? Did it cause your TV to explode?
Just curious, thanks
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bump
any news on this?
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I have a very, probably very very good Paul Hynes analogue
pws for the SB3, so to try out my stock 5V SWPS with Felix behind it, is
for me uninteresting, especially since I need 5V and 3.3 V. The stock does not provide
3.3V
But is it (theoretically) possible that a SWPS will lose all its negative effects with a felix in front of it ( to shield it for the other
elements of the setup) and behind it to shield the -this case SB3/Duet- from switiching nasties?
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thx Paul
btw is it really important those red dots of the coil should be on the left?
harm done when they are on the right?
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No, it doesn't matter if the dotted ends are both on the source or the load, the flux from differential signals with still cancel, so rotating 180 degrees maintains proper operation. Rotating 90 degrees, will hopefully only result in a blown fuse or breaker. Been there, done that.... :oops:
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If kyrill is using the boards he bought, then there's no chance of messing up that part. The CMC's have different lead spacing for 90 degree orientation, so they won't fit on the board. :)
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No, it doesn't matter if the dotted ends are both on the source or the load, the flux from differential signals with still cancel, so rotating 180 degrees maintains proper operation. Rotating 90 degrees, will hopefully only result in a blown fuse or breaker. Been there, done that.... :oops:
Ditto. Brainlessly hooked it up as if it were a primary/secondary. Nope! :duh:
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Where can one buy a DC blocker? I'm in the process of putting a felix together :)
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DC blocker:
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=51459.msg461059;topicseen#msg461059
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What cap values should be used with the DC blocker ? What determines the appropriate cap value? What temp. rating?
Thanks,
Roy
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...and then all fell quiet... :scratch: (maybe it was restarted in another thread?)
Did anyone ever get around to trying a Felix setup in between the 5VDC power supply and the SB? Did it work/sound good? Did it cause your TV to explode?
Just curious, thanks
Bump
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What cap values should be used with the DC blocker ? What determines the appropriate cap value? What temp. rating?
Thanks,
Roy
Brystron's circuit -
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=18855)
using 33,000uf 6.3v caps, voltage sufficiently above the 2 diode drops, with a current capabilty sufficient for the load. 85c and 105c temp ratings are both applicable if the enclosure is sufficiently ventilated.
http://sound.westhost.com/articles/xfmr-dc.htm
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Thanks Occam
I have a Radio Shack full wave bridge rectifier (50V, 25A, forward voltage drop 1.7V, reverse leakage 100uA). So, I guess that the Nichicon 1500uf/16v caps/105c I have would sufficient for this application. . I suppose I could parallel the caps for more capacity.
I'm trying to work my way through the article you linked in order to gain more in-depth knowledge.
-Roy
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...and then all fell quiet... :scratch: (maybe it was restarted in another thread?)
Did anyone ever get around to trying a Felix setup in between the 5VDC power supply and the SB? Did it work/sound good? Did it cause your TV to explode?
Just curious, thanks
bump
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http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=66040.msg618274#msg618274
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Why CMC are limited to only 2 or three makes from coilcraft and bourns. Has anyone tried with different CMCs out there?
Is the way in which capacitors and CMC have been used make a difference ,if CMC inductance value changes?