The Joys of Cheap & Cheerful

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FireGuy

Re: The Joys of Cheap & Cheerful
« Reply #20 on: 1 Nov 2016, 01:11 pm »
 "And if you can't hear the differences among components in vastly different price categories..."

This is exactly the spirit of this thread.  I agree owning mega priced components would be preferred... but one should never totally believe higher price = better performance... it doesn't.

Early B.

Re: The Joys of Cheap & Cheerful
« Reply #21 on: 1 Nov 2016, 01:49 pm »
"And if you can't hear the differences among components in vastly different price categories..."

I agree owning mega priced components would be preferred... but one should never totally believe higher price = better performance... it doesn't.

Well, a $5,000 amp, in nearly every instance, will sound better than a $500 one for obvious reasons, so generally speaking, higher price = better performance, up to a point. Of course, there are a zillion "giant killers" in the marketplace, but the fact remains that when you pay more, you often get more. 

All of us can build cheaper systems, but that's not the goal of the audiophile. Neither is musical enjoyment. When my favorite song comes on my car radio, I enjoy the song just as much as I would if listening to it on my reference system. I have a Cheap & Cheerful system, too, and when I listen to it, I sometimes wonder why I spent so much more money on my reference system.

So why do we do what we do? Well, this hobby no different than the wine connoisseur who delights in a $500 bottle of wine when most people believe the $5 bottle tastes just as good. As audiophiles, we delight in the nuances and subtleties of music that the vast majority of people never heard and could care less about.

Do you prefer a McDonald's Big Mac or a $75 steak dinner? Both are meals centered around beef, but you savor the steak dinner. You don't converse about the colors and flavors of the special sauce or the texture of the beef patty in your Big Mac. Cheap & Cheerful is like fast food -- it's enjoyable and satiates your appetite, but it ain't a steak dinner.


       

Wind Chaser

Re: The Joys of Cheap & Cheerful
« Reply #22 on: 1 Nov 2016, 03:12 pm »
Well, a $5,000 amp, in nearly every instance, will sound better than a $500 one for obvious reasons, so generally speaking, higher price = better performance .... the fact remains that when you pay more, you often get more. 

Do you prefer a McDonald's Big Mac or a $75 steak dinner? Both are meals centered around beef, but you savor the steak dinner. You don't converse about the colors and flavors of the special sauce or the texture of the beef patty in your Big Mac. Cheap & Cheerful is like fast food -- it's enjoyable and satiates your appetite, but it ain't a steak dinner.

Very succinct and to the point!

fredgarvin

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Re: The Joys of Cheap & Cheerful
« Reply #23 on: 1 Nov 2016, 03:28 pm »
Often, when you pay more you don't get more. Often, a $20 steak dinner or even a well executed $10 burger  is as satisfying as a $75 steak dinner.

A simple peruse on this site shows many people are discussing the 'colors and flavors of the special sauce or the texture of the sound from their C n C burgers.'


fredgarvin

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Re: The Joys of Cheap & Cheerful
« Reply #24 on: 1 Nov 2016, 03:34 pm »

Ouch!  Where's the love baby?

Not saying Cheap & Cheerful gear competes head to head with $1 million systems.  But trying to define "audiophile quality" can't be done either.  It's not based on how much money is spent or personal experience.  Agree that in general cheap gear shouldn't sound as good as expensive gear, but even that statement is painting with a wide brush.  Often the cheaper/smaller systems reveal fewer "sins of commission" which can be more onerous than "sins of omission."  Everyone has their own idea of where their point of diminishing returns is that provides the greatest owner/listener satisfaction.  Many of us after traveling the audio road for decades have found satisfaction by not chasing the merry-go-round.

Well said. And succinct too!   :green:

cujobob

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Re: The Joys of Cheap & Cheerful
« Reply #25 on: 1 Nov 2016, 04:08 pm »
Well, a $5,000 amp, in nearly every instance, will sound better than a $500 one for obvious reasons, so generally speaking, higher price = better performance, up to a point. Of course, there are a zillion "giant killers" in the marketplace, but the fact remains that when you pay more, you often get more. 

All of us can build cheaper systems, but that's not the goal of the audiophile. Neither is musical enjoyment. When my favorite song comes on my car radio, I enjoy the song just as much as I would if listening to it on my reference system. I have a Cheap & Cheerful system, too, and when I listen to it, I sometimes wonder why I spent so much more money on my reference system.

So why do we do what we do? Well, this hobby no different than the wine connoisseur who delights in a $500 bottle of wine when most people believe the $5 bottle tastes just as good. As audiophiles, we delight in the nuances and subtleties of music that the vast majority of people never heard and could care less about.

Do you prefer a McDonald's Big Mac or a $75 steak dinner? Both are meals centered around beef, but you savor the steak dinner. You don't converse about the colors and flavors of the special sauce or the texture of the beef patty in your Big Mac. Cheap & Cheerful is like fast food -- it's enjoyable and satiates your appetite, but it ain't a steak dinner.


     

This is fairly inaccurate. One can build a high quality, low distortion amplifier for very little. Often times, you are paying for the name, extreme amount of wattage (which does not guarantee high quality in the first few watts), or the appearance/art of the piece.

Sound quality is scientific. You do not need to spend a fortune to engineer good electronics. For example, the First Watt series is expensive because they're made by the designer and the supply/demand causes a price increase. One can DIY those designs for very little or pay someone to build one out. The parts are inexpensive.

What you are speaking of (IMO) is that companies often take shortcuts and fewer corners are cut with more expensive pieces. That is not always the case and it really makes no difference if the less expensive product is engineered better.

Wind Chaser

Re: The Joys of Cheap & Cheerful
« Reply #26 on: 1 Nov 2016, 04:26 pm »
Big Macs and Kool Aid.  :lol:

thunderbrick

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Re: The Joys of Cheap & Cheerful
« Reply #27 on: 1 Nov 2016, 04:28 pm »
Big Macs and Kool Aid.  :lol:

Breakfast of Champions!!   :thumb:

Wind Chaser

Re: The Joys of Cheap & Cheerful
« Reply #28 on: 1 Nov 2016, 04:48 pm »
I'd rather fast and save for a better day. :D

macrojack

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Re: The Joys of Cheap & Cheerful
« Reply #29 on: 1 Nov 2016, 04:56 pm »
I personally find it easier to be cheap than cheerful --- especially lately.

The audiophile game has been (ever since Harry Pearson polluted it with his arrogant twaddle) mostly about reputation and reviews. It seems that many of the older and wiser among us have discovered that chosen or forced spending reductions haven't really required the sacrifice in performance or enjoyment that we all had assumed would follow. Hence, some wise individual took the brave and seemingly blasphemous step of starting the Cheap and Cheerful thread, which appears to be among the most popular Circles here.

In my own case, the move came along with retirement and with the embarrassing realization that I really wasn't all that snobbish. I'm probably a very unsophisticated listener. If so, so be it. Takes a lot of heat off the budget when you stop worrying about intricacies of reproduction and presentation. I just turn on the radio and go about my biz. When my Kenwood KT-917 tuner went down with a broken RCA output jack, I just put an older iMac in its place. Never missed a beat and increased my listening radius by some 10,000 miles. That was really cheap and cheerful.

If anybody wants any of my remaining hi-end gear, PM me.

Meanwhile, I will agree that active speakers provide a remarkable return on investment. Separate amps are unnecessary indulgences. Mods never increase value. Bomb shelters are coming back into vogue. And weight loss could become much easier. Search the back channels for accurate info. And move to Colorado so you can grow your own tweak. That's by far the most cost effective, C&C upgrade available..... and it's legal here.

charmerci

Re: The Joys of Cheap & Cheerful
« Reply #30 on: 1 Nov 2016, 07:19 pm »
As one who has almost always had to buy C & C, I'm finding that spending somewhat more than the C&C guidelines seems to get you very close (90%-ish) to the better/best systems out there. With C&C, it's a matter of keep-on-trying until one finds a mesh of components that don't hurt your ears or you get tired of the sound quality.


For years, I listened to Van Alstine's cables don't really matter philosophy, so I just used crap cables - until I bought simple Monoprice cables, not expecting to hear any difference but there it was. So now I go the about $150 used route (e.g. Guffman, Audiosensibility, Morrow). Makes a difference to me! The used SurgeX that I got from Dave113 here also made a difference - again, not expecting to hear any.

timind

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Re: The Joys of Cheap & Cheerful
« Reply #31 on: 1 Nov 2016, 08:01 pm »
Well, a $5,000 amp, in nearly every instance, will sound better than a $500 one for obvious reasons, so generally speaking, higher price = better performance, up to a point. Of course, there are a zillion "giant killers" in the marketplace, but the fact remains that when you pay more, you often get more. 


The question is "sound better" to whom? I have owned amps of nearly every flavor, a couple with prices just north of $5k, and have not always thought they were better than less expensive amps. As many others here I am approaching the 50 year mark in this hobby and am settling down with much less expensive gear. And I don't feel I'm losing any sonic quality by doing it.
Most recently I went from a Pass Labs ($3k used) amp to a Hafler P225 that was gifted to me by a member here (thanks ccklone). I upgraded the power supply and modded the amp with parts from Musical Concepts and fell in love with the sound. I never tire of listening to music through this amp, not something I've always been able to say with pricier, "audiophile sounding" amps.  So the Pass Labs was much prettier to look at, but I honestly prefer the sound through the Hafler.

Letitroll98

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Re: The Joys of Cheap & Cheerful
« Reply #32 on: 1 Nov 2016, 08:42 pm »
A great thread JLM, thanks for sharing.  I agree with many of your points and disagree with others, but find sympathy in the general tone of your op.  My C&C system has now crept above guidelines because I can't find what I want in transducers at lower prices.  Amps, preamps, DACs, good cabling can all be had at reasonable cost.  I can't seem to find speakers and turntables that satisfy both guidelines and my preferences.  It's just too hard to build good cabinets, use quality drivers, and design effective crossovers at C&C prices and the same goes for turntables and cartridges.  Yes, I know about Elac and Pioneer before them, just don't float my boat.  And the lower priced Pro-ject/Rega tables leave out too much of the musical fundamentals.  So I have $3200 speakers bought for $900 used and a $1500 turntable bought at $1000 closeout, close as I could get to C&C.  Before the palace revolt begins, my HT system is still C&C.  :wink:

Sam Tellig was just brought up, he used to write a column titled "The Audio Cheapskate" until he found that he couldn't recommend the cheapest components when you could get so much better for just a little more money (at least that was the public reason).  Cheap & Cheerful is fun, for almost nothing you can put together a musically satisfying system that while not state of the art, sounds pretty darn good.  However I'm thinking the audio sound quality sweet spot is in that "next up" price level, somewhere around $2-5,000g total system cost.

bummrush

Re: The Joys of Cheap & Cheerful
« Reply #33 on: 1 Nov 2016, 08:58 pm »
For me,i just use as for power cords in a coupe areas ,i e power and pre amp ive used a couple  volex  cords and im content.  I guess theres better,but im happy.Thats kinda how system is. For example having  a hundred dollar pair of Clements speakers. 99 % of speakers ive used have been box speakers. With mmg's thrown in for just a year or two. Still kinda blown away by how good a decent  2 way can sound. For all used and b stock,it came to about 2 k. Not cheap but not expensive either.
« Last Edit: 2 Nov 2016, 04:12 pm by bummrush »

dB Cooper

Re: The Joys of Cheap & Cheerful
« Reply #34 on: 2 Nov 2016, 12:58 am »
As far as 'more expensive' equating to 'better'... FWIW, the $220K KEF speakers shown at Capital Audiofest this past summer were being demo'd with Odyssey amps, not some strato-priced art deco piece. The turntable in use was well into five figures though. But even that system you could tell from 'Live'.

What is and isn't 'audiophile quality' depends on your definition of 'audiophile'. Mine is 'a person who is interested in the science, art, and technology of recording music and reproducing it in the home.' (Notice the absence of any mention of spending levels.) Frank Van Alstine (mentioned earlier in the thread) once published in his newsletter a definition I like for telling whether a given system was 'good enough': "When you go to their home, is the system usually on or usually off? If it is On, it's probably good enough. If it is usually Off, it probably isn't."

Early B.

Re: The Joys of Cheap & Cheerful
« Reply #35 on: 2 Nov 2016, 01:31 am »
What is and isn't 'audiophile quality' depends on your definition of 'audiophile'. Mine is 'a person who is interested in the science, art, and technology of recording music and reproducing it in the home.'

Most audiophiles don't give a damn about the science and technology of recorded music. In fact, audiophiles rarely discuss how music sounds -- they talk about how their gear sounds. Audiophiles don't enjoy listening to music any more than non-audiophiles. So part of defining an audiophile is their propensity to spend excessively (relatively speaking) on audio gear. Even those of us with only Cheap & Cheerful gear spend far more on audio gear than most people.

The defining trait of audiophiles is the desire to assemble an audio system that will allow them to achieve the highest possible level of sonic fidelity (within their budgets, of course). The Cheap & Cheerful circle is popular because many of us want to know -- how can I get more for less?
     

thunderbrick

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Re: The Joys of Cheap & Cheerful
« Reply #36 on: 2 Nov 2016, 01:43 am »
Most audiophiles don't give a damn about the science and technology of recorded music. In fact, audiophiles rarely discuss how music sounds -- they talk about how their gear sounds. Audiophiles don't enjoy listening to music any more than non-audiophiles. So part of defining an audiophile is their propensity to spend excessively (relatively speaking) on audio gear. Even those of us with only Cheap & Cheerful gear spend far more on audio gear than most people.

The defining trait of audiophiles is the desire to assemble an audio system that will allow them to achieve the highest possible level of sonic fidelity (within their budgets, of course). The Cheap & Cheerful circle is popular because many of us want to know -- how can I get more for less?
   

I think most of are split between the two views.  Yes, I like the tactile feel of the toys, and I do listen carefully to the differences in sound.  My goal is to reach deeper into the recordings to hear subtle details that add to the FEEL of the music.  Once I know it's there I just sink in and relax.  On other recordings I'll accept the recording shortfalls when the music transcends the sound.   Depends on my mood.

Odal3

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Re: The Joys of Cheap & Cheerful
« Reply #37 on: 2 Nov 2016, 01:58 am »
a definition I like for telling whether a given system was 'good enough': "When you go to their home, is the system usually on or usually off? If it is On, it's probably good enough. If it is usually Off, it probably isn't."
That is a great definition  :thumb:

The C&C circle is one of my favorite here on AC. I have to say it's getting easier and easier to get great systems for not that much. As with anything, we all have our own preferences what we prefer so I'm not going to comment on the list in the OP. What I will say is that I find it a real joy finding out about C&C equipment, systems, and setups that are "not supposed to sound that good"  considering the little money paid. A big thank you to everyone who contributes and posts in this circle.

thunderbrick

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Re: The Joys of Cheap & Cheerful
« Reply #38 on: 2 Nov 2016, 02:06 am »
What I will say is that I find it a real joy finding out about C&C equipment, systems, and setups that are "not supposed to sound that good"  considering the little money paid. A big thank you to everyone who contributes and posts in this circle.

Agreed, like the time my NAD 3020 was throwing a deep and wide soundstage in my cluttered basement workshop.  I was floored!

Odal3

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Re: The Joys of Cheap & Cheerful
« Reply #39 on: 2 Nov 2016, 02:16 am »
My C&C system has now crept above guidelines
What...!?!  :bawl:

Quote
  Before the palace revolt begins, my HT system is still C&C.  :wink:

Ok good. Started to get worried   :D