amp for rm2

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royal

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amp for rm2
« on: 10 Jun 2014, 03:41 am »
I have been using an Outlaw Audio 5 channel power amp, model 750, with my rm2's since I bought them both, around 5 years ago.   It's a home theater amp of course and I have long wondered if my speakers could use something better.  Is that reasonable?  Would I be likely to hear a big difference if I bought something on Audiogon for say $1500?  My source is usually a computer with sound card, digital signal > Cambridge Audio 740c > Placette remote volume control (sometimes a DYI tube preamp)> Outlaw 750 .  I am generally pleased with my sound but just want to experiment/upgrade - you understand I'm sure.  So any suggestions?

Brax

Re: amp for rm2
« Reply #1 on: 10 Jun 2014, 12:57 pm »
I don't think you are going to get a night/day difference by changing amps. I would look more at your source equipment. The biggest difference for me is when I upgraded from a Pioneer AVR to a Meridian processor.

AmpDesigner333

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Re: amp for rm2
« Reply #2 on: 10 Jun 2014, 01:04 pm »
There are Maraschino and big Cherry demos currently available.  Send a PM if interested.  Thanks.

-Tommy O

royal

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Re: amp for rm2
« Reply #3 on: 16 Jun 2014, 12:22 am »
so does everyone agree with Brax?

Early B.

Re: amp for rm2
« Reply #4 on: 16 Jun 2014, 01:03 am »
I have been using an Outlaw Audio 5 channel power amp, model 750, with my rm2's since I bought them both, around 5 years ago.   It's a home theater amp of course and I have long wondered if my speakers could use something better.  Is that reasonable?  Would I be likely to hear a big difference if I bought something on Audiogon for say $1500?  My source is usually a computer with sound card, digital signal > Cambridge Audio 740c > Placette remote volume control (sometimes a DYI tube preamp)> Outlaw 750 .  I am generally pleased with my sound but just want to experiment/upgrade - you understand I'm sure.  So any suggestions?

You would get a tremendous improvement in sound by acquiring a decent 2-channel amp such as an Odyssey Stratos for less than a grand. With that being said, you shouldn't just stop at upgrading your amp. Virtually everything else in the chain should be upgraded to the same level, beginning with the source. Budget $1,500 for a decent used DAC. Hold onto the Placette for a while, then upgrade it later on. If you're not willing to upgrade everything, including all of your cables, then enjoy what you have.

royal

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Re: amp for rm2
« Reply #5 on: 16 Jun 2014, 03:14 am »
Quote
You would get a tremendous improvement in sound by acquiring a decent 2-channel amp such as an Odyssey Stratos for less than a grand. With that being said, you shouldn't just stop at upgrading your amp. Virtually everything else in the chain should be upgraded to the same level, beginning with the source. Budget $1,500 for a decent used DAC. Hold onto the Placette for a while, then upgrade it later on. If you're not willing to upgrade everything, including all of your cables, then enjoy what you have.

Sorry but I am not sure I understand your advice.  1) Are you saying that nothing in my system is up to the level of the RM2's?
2) I wouldn't get an improvement from just upgrading the amp?  3) It would be great to upgrade everything at once but where do I get the $10K? :)

PMAT

Re: amp for rm2
« Reply #6 on: 16 Jun 2014, 05:49 am »
You could get a big improvement with a good amp. But, The outlaw is a pretty darned good amp. Have you tried using 4 channels to biamp the RM2 s? That would prob sound great. A good preamp would/could make a big improvement. You don't have to spend big money to get killer sound. To start with, you have great speakers. That's what most budget systems don't have. The sound card could also sound bad or thin. Good luck. Post pics and keep us updated.

Early B.

Re: amp for rm2
« Reply #7 on: 16 Jun 2014, 10:44 am »
Sorry but I am not sure I understand your advice.  1) Are you saying that nothing in my system is up to the level of the RM2's?
2) I wouldn't get an improvement from just upgrading the amp?  3) It would be great to upgrade everything at once but where do I get the $10K? :)

1) Absolutely. Your RM2's can sound so much better with better gear. I'm also saying that once you start upgrading, you won't be able to stop. :)
2) You'd get a huge improvement from upgrading the amp only, but the amp will also reveal weaknesses in other parts of your system. For example, as PMAT mentioned, the amp will likely "amplify" just how bad your sound card is, and the deficiencies in your 740C.
3) Upgrade piece by piece. In a year or two, you'll have an entirely different system.

Brax

Re: amp for rm2
« Reply #8 on: 16 Jun 2014, 11:32 am »
For a few hundred dollars you could pick up a used Meridian (or other good processor) and try it out. If you don't get the improvement your looking for, just sell it.

I'd start with the processor first I think it has the biggest impact on the sound quality. Even the best amp can not improve a bad incoming signal. I think you will be suprised how good your amp will sound once fed a clean signal.

/mp

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Re: amp for rm2
« Reply #9 on: 16 Jun 2014, 02:44 pm »
The subject of the thread & the OP originally asked about amplifiers but the thread is evolving to include the entire signal chain. With regard to soundcards, it's not that they are inherently poor performers, it's just that computer guts are a hostile environment. Moving to an external DA (or AD/DA) is a relatively inexpensive solution & downright cheap compared to audiophile pricing if one is willing to consider pro audio solutions. AD/DAs from companies such as Avid, Focusrite & Behringer are available for ~$200 (some models less, some much, much more) from major online dealers such as Sweetwater and BHphotovideo. Investigate their return policies. They may amount to free home auditions. Audio level interface products (e.g. Aphex model 124) exist if converting between pro and consumer signals is an issue. A side benefit which doesn't appear to apply to the OP but may help those with record collections is the ability to rip their LPs for no added cost since most pro DAs are also ADs.

I have never had the opportunity to do a direct comparison of pro AD/DAs with high prices audiophile products so I can not speak to that topic. I would be interested if anyone has and cares to share their findings. Brian C's DXO is a Behringer product if that has any meaning in this context.

As always, YMWV.

/mp

royal

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Re: amp for rm2
« Reply #10 on: 16 Jun 2014, 04:40 pm »
OK, this is getting interesting now.  So concerning the source first: I am using an Xonar Essence stx http://www.asus.com/Sound_Cards_and_DigitaltoAnalog_Converters/Xonar_Essence_STX/
I use the spdif output going to the Cambridge audio 740 C for DAC.  I was under the impression that the 740C was a respectable DAC. 
« Last Edit: 17 Jun 2014, 01:42 pm by royal »

royal

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Re: amp for rm2
« Reply #11 on: 16 Jun 2014, 04:44 pm »
Quote

You could get a big improvement with a good amp. But, The outlaw is a pretty darned good amp. Have you tried using 4 channels to biamp the RM2 s? That would prob sound great. A good preamp would/could make a big improvement. You don't have to spend big money to get killer sound. To start with, you have great speakers. That's what most budget systems don't have. The sound card could also sound bad or thin. Good luck. Post pics and keep us updated.

Yes I do use the outlaw to biamp.
« Last Edit: 17 Jun 2014, 01:42 pm by royal »

James Romeyn

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Re: amp for rm2
« Reply #12 on: 16 Jun 2014, 06:11 pm »
I don't think you are going to get a night/day difference by changing amps. I would look more at your source equipment. The biggest difference for me is when I upgraded from a Pioneer AVR to a Meridian processor.

Yah, I guess so!  Switching from several weeks past due date packaged food to fresh gourmet!   :lol: 

RM2 appreciate superb high current/high power amp.  Best value for this application IMO: build a stereo Hypex UcD700 or stereo Ncore NC400 (both with SMPS1200A400), former estimate $1k, latter $1350.  The latter amp requires some research to hard wire, not plug and play.       


royal

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Re: amp for rm2
« Reply #13 on: 16 Jun 2014, 06:34 pm »
Quote
RM2 appreciate superb high current/high power amp.  Best value for this application IMO: build a stereo Hypex UcD700 or stereo Ncore NC400 (both with SMPS1200A400), former estimate $1k, latter $1350.  The latter amp requires some research to hard wire, not plug and play.

Thanks for the suggestion but not really up for a DIY right now.

/mp

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Re: amp for rm2
« Reply #14 on: 16 Jun 2014, 08:06 pm »
I use the spdif output going to the Cambridge audio 640 C for DAC.

I was under the false impression you used your sound card as the DA.
Mea culpa,
/mp

Brax

Re: amp for rm2
« Reply #15 on: 17 Jun 2014, 12:19 pm »
Yah, I guess so!  Switching from several weeks past due date packaged food to fresh gourmet!   :lol: 

RM2 appreciate superb high current/high power amp.  Best value for this application IMO: build a stereo Hypex UcD700 or stereo Ncore NC400 (both with SMPS1200A400), former estimate $1k, latter $1350.  The latter amp requires some research to hard wire, not plug and play.     

Just so I understand this comment, regardless of the input signal quality, a good amp will make it sound great.

royal

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Re: amp for rm2
« Reply #16 on: 17 Jun 2014, 01:49 pm »
Quote
For a few hundred dollars you could pick up a used Meridian (or other good processor) and try it out. If you don't get the improvement your looking for, just sell it.

checked on Audiogon and there are no meridian DAC for sale.  What other brand/model would you suggest?

James Romeyn

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Re: amp for rm2
« Reply #17 on: 17 Jun 2014, 02:40 pm »
Just so I understand this comment, regardless of the input signal quality, a good amp will make it sound great.

Sorry to be so harsh, but your interpretive skills are lacking, and that's being polite.     

PMAT

Re: amp for rm2
« Reply #18 on: 17 Jun 2014, 03:05 pm »
No Brax, Jim is not saying that at all. Being very familiar with the RM 2 ( more than all of us ) he is singing the praises of solid amplification. If I understand it, building on a weak foundation is just that.

Brax

Re: amp for rm2
« Reply #19 on: 17 Jun 2014, 04:48 pm »
James,

The OP asked if he would hear a BIG difference in in sound quality in his system just by upgrading his amp. He also stated he is biamping his RM-2s with is Outlaw amp. In this configuration he would be feeding his speakers 300 watts to the low and 300 to the high end of each speaker. This is with an amp with respectable numbers, -100db crosstalk between channels, 50 volt slew rate, a dampening factor greater than 400 and a signal to noise ratio of 0.03% at the rated output. This amp is not equal to many of the better Audio grade amps available but I don’t think it is the weak link in his system.

Can his system be improved with a better amp, of course it can. Will it be the BIG difference he is looking for, I don’t think so. When I gave the OP my advice, I prefaced it with “for me” improving the source gave me a better bang for the buck (Larger perceived improvement in sound quality) than when I upgraded my amps. The amps you suggest look very good but I think you skirted the question. Will even upgrading to one of the amps you suggest make the big difference the OP is looking for or would the $1,500 be better spent elsewhere in his system. For $1,500 he could have upgrades to a set of RM40s that were just sold on Ebay.

On a personal level, you are very knowledgeable and experienced when it comes to audio, too bad your tack with us less knowledgeable members isn’t so well developed.