Lowther Open Baffles

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic. Read 34253 times.

Poultrygeist

Re: Lowther Open Baffles
« Reply #40 on: 16 Nov 2013, 10:33 am »
Are you still using your little 8" subwoofer to add a bit of kick to the low end? So your signal flow is the Source -> Pre -> Ashly X-Over < 100 Hz -> 2 x Yung SD-300: 1 driving the subwoofer and one driving 4 x Alpha 15a OBs. > 100 Hz -> Bottlehead 2A3 -> Lowthers?

Are you using the LP filters on the Yung plate amps to do any additional filtering?

Thanks for the answers.

I moved the little Triska sub to a bedroom system and now use the 8" Dayton Reference sub ( a new knock down kit from P.E. ). It's powered by one Yung SD300 off the second preamp output independent of the Ashly. You're spot on with the way things are connected. The Ashly is set at 1.5k with the "divided by 10" button engaged.

The second Yung's signal which powers the four Alphas is filtered by the Ashly. Since the Yung's crossover can't be switched off I set it at it's highest level.

Poultrygeist

Re: Lowther Open Baffles
« Reply #41 on: 18 Nov 2013, 12:12 pm »
Here's the 8 inch Dayton I use with these OB's. The subwoofer and knock-down cabinet ( best MDF I've seen ) are on sale at P.E. Very impressed with their strong internal bracing. Augments the Alpha's extension and allows feeling the bass.



danvprod


Poultrygeist

Re: Lowther Open Baffles
« Reply #43 on: 18 Nov 2013, 03:12 pm »
Yes that's it and I agree with the review.

danvprod

Re: Lowther Open Baffles
« Reply #44 on: 22 Nov 2013, 01:50 am »
How would you compare the Lowther to the Beta 12 LTA + 2 BG Ribbon Tweeters Eminence 15 H-Frames and Dayton Ref Subwoofer?  Basically same setup except Beta/BG Ribbon Tweeters/H-Frame (but same x-over, amps, sub etc.)

I'm at a crossroads whether I want to try out the Beta 12 or just save up a consider the Lowther pair. Unfortunately the 88 dB sensitivity of the Alpair 10.3 just is doing it for me.

The Beta 12 LTA + some tweeter setup might be a good upgrade, but it may just make sense to go all the way...

Poultrygeist

Re: Lowther Open Baffles
« Reply #45 on: 22 Nov 2013, 01:08 pm »
How would you compare the Lowther to the Beta 12 LTA + 2 BG Ribbon Tweeters Eminence 15 H-Frames and Dayton Ref Subwoofer?  Basically same setup except Beta/BG Ribbon Tweeters/H-Frame (but same x-over, amps, sub etc.)

I'm at a crossroads whether I want to try out the Beta 12 or just save up a consider the Lowther pair. Unfortunately the 88 dB sensitivity of the Alpair 10.3 just is doing it for me.

The Beta 12 LTA + some tweeter setup might be a good upgrade, but it may just make sense to go all the way...

I wish I had two good listening rooms as I'd have the Beta/H-frames in one and the Lowthers in the other. I really hate that the Beta/H-frames now reside in the garage.

Since I sold the Tang Bands the B&G Neo 3's sit idle. They are a better match with the TB's and work best with the Betas when powered by their own amp which I did for awhile. Bi-amping is complicated enough but tri-amping is a cabling nightmare. 

The best tweeter combination for the Betas in my experience has been the Realistic 40-1310A with a .47uF Sonicap ( a matter of taste as to which value gives the right amount of sparkle ).

While the Lowthers are more detailed with incredible mids/highs, the Betas are just as entertaining in their own right. I can't seem to get enough of the Beta's sense of grandeur and scale. For the price the Beta 12LTA with the dust cap phase plug mod and paired with the right tweeter is no doubt the better value. It's a combination I could live with forever had I not got the great deal on the Lowthers.

BoJonJovi

  • Jr. Member
  • Posts: 46
Re: Lowther Open Baffles
« Reply #46 on: 24 Nov 2013, 03:23 pm »
I can vouch for the cap phase plug modification. I would have never dreamed taking a box cutter to my new speakers would make such a pleasant change.

flavo

Re: Lowther Open Baffles
« Reply #47 on: 23 May 2014, 01:33 am »
Hi PG
 In regards the 12 lta and TB 1808 in the above post. are you saying that both would benefit from a tweeter and the use of it's own amp, so tri-amping?  I, like you, would like to stay away from that.  In doing so are you just grabbing for that little extra something? Like you quoted someone earlier about a 1/2 way decent OB still sounding better then a box speaker.  What's the 12 or TB like without a tweeter?  Any idea about fostex?

I ask because I have pretty much talked myself into building one of these alpha15 X 4 OB speakers. I'm not sure on the FR though.  I know that the lowthers are too pricey for me.
there are so many brands and so many names, haha.

I'm thinking TB1808 but don't really know. Obviously  :scratch:

If I do end up doing this though. You find it pretty essential that a sub be utilized? I would just go with the PE kit that was linked. I'm trying to avoid any unknowns here.

Have you tried playing with the minidsp yet?

Thanks!

Edit: PS, that's essentially quad amping as the 8"sub has an amp too.  I think my head hurts now ;-)

Poultrygeist

Re: Lowther Open Baffles
« Reply #48 on: 23 May 2014, 02:13 am »
Hi flavo,

My head also hurts from reading your post.  :green:

The eight inch TB 1808 does not need a tweeter but the 12 inch and much cheaper 12LTA does. If you go with the 12LTA you can run the tweeter off the same amp with just a cap on the tweeter positive. With the Alphas you would be bi-amping. Maybe your TPA3116 on the 12LTA/tweeter or TB 1808 and at least a 100 watt amp for the 4 Alphas. I like the Yung SD200 or 300 plate amp for this.

If you go with a plate amp you can use it to crossover the Alphas while allowing the TB or 12LTA to run unabated. In this application you can try it without an active crossover but add one later if you wish.

If you use the 15 inch Alphas you don't really need a sub. The Alphas will easily reach 40hz which covers 99% of recorded music.

The minidsp would be a great choice for an active crossover. I have no experience with it as I use an analog active but from all accounts it's the way to go.

The TB's are detailed, refined and a great choice for small group jazz but they lack the incredible soundstage and raunch of the 12LTA's with a cheap tweeter. On the downside you must mod the 12LTA to smooth it's rough edges while the TB would be easy to implement but it's pricey.

flavo

Re: Lowther Open Baffles
« Reply #49 on: 23 May 2014, 12:34 pm »
Yeah, my I was kinda having a hard time following myself.
I plan on using the sd300. It's on my shopping list!

As for the sub. I see you are using one with this set up. Care to say why you think I might be happy with out one? Or why you want one?

So if I plan on listening to alt/indi rock (I do) I might want to go with the 12 lta plus tweeter?
 I listen to a fair amount of jazz and "pretty" music but most of my time is spent listening to indie stuff.
If so, that rules out the question about the fostex. I'm assuming you have no time with one? In my head I really like the look of the fostex
 It basically looks very similar to the lowther. I like the contrast. I'm as much an artist as I am a speaker builder. OK, I'm more of an artist.
 My light switch is pretty far away.
I'm OK with the 12 lta though.

Oh yeah, as for the modding of the 12 lta. You're just talking about a phase plug correct? I'm going to search when I get home. But if you have a link in
dumbed down english that you can share describing the phase plug it would be appreciated.

Thank you so much for the help and putting this info on here.

Poultrygeist

Re: Lowther Open Baffles
« Reply #50 on: 23 May 2014, 09:01 pm »
I use a sub just for the visceral. I hear all the bass I need from the Alphas but a small sealed sub allows feeling it. But I can take it or leave it.

Although the Lowthers are my favorite wide banders the modded Beta 12LTA's are a close second. Paired with a Radio Shack tweeter and Alpha woofers they will play anything you throw at them. The Fostexs while slightly more detailed sound thin compared to the 12LTA's.

With a craft store phase plug "egg" painted silver the 12LTA can be handsome.

Cutting out the 12LTA dust cap.


Poultrygeist

Re: Lowther Open Baffles
« Reply #51 on: 23 May 2014, 09:02 pm »
Dust cap removal.



Poultrygeist

Re: Lowther Open Baffles
« Reply #52 on: 23 May 2014, 09:09 pm »
12LTA phase plugs aka Michael's Craft Store wooden eggs. Select the size closest to a real egg and counter sink four wood screws in it's base. Picture shows two but I added two more. These metal screws will magnetically attach the phase plug to the throat of the 12LTA.




Poultrygeist

Re: Lowther Open Baffles
« Reply #53 on: 23 May 2014, 09:21 pm »
Beta 12LTA with phase plug mod over H-frame Alphas. The tweeter is currently the Radio Shack pod tweeter available on ebay with a .47uF Sonicap on it's positive terminal.

If you're into art consider the flat baffles which can be your canvas. You can go with 48" x 20" sized baffles with an offset on the 12LTA's.




Poultrygeist

Re: Lowther Open Baffles
« Reply #54 on: 23 May 2014, 09:26 pm »

bellicon

  • Jr. Member
  • Posts: 45
Ribbons/OB mids/sealed Altec 416 midbass + subs
« Reply #55 on: 14 Nov 2015, 11:55 pm »
Point well taken...but... if you want to take your OBs to the next level  :green:
Thanks to Scott F, Poultrygeist, Richard, BoJonJovi and Godzilla and JRKO from
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/full-range/196808-beta-12lta-beta-12a-2-open-baffle-concept-viable-3.html for sharing your knowledge, experience and encouragement-enabling me to begin my journey into the OB world. Of course, all DIYing involves risks of time and money, such as buying expensive drivers for the wrong enclosures and/or room size, or attempting to passively cross a three way speaker system when truly cost effective results might only be achieved by at least bi-amping the mids and midbass drivers.

But here’s what I’ve got to work with and what my goals are. I just hope that I won’t get laughed out of court:

OBs, I’m told, should have at least have 4 ft of space behind them, and ?? ft to either side of them. In any case, while this won’t be a problem in my 18’ x 14 living room, I have another speaker system planned for that room. And though that room is uncluttered enough to accommodate both speaker systems, my crazy idea is to build a pair of OBs for one of two fairly cluttered bedrooms. One room is 12 ft x 11; the other is 17 ft x 9.

I’ve read that putting speakers (most or all types of?) along the longer wall is not advisable. If yes, why is this so? In any case, at least I can get rid of stuff along one of the longer walls in the bigger room to allow placement of speakers there.

Regarding placement and listening position in the 12 ft x 11 bedroom, I’d be sitting in my small easy chair in front of the north wall, with my single twin bed to the right of me. The bed is 24” high and my ears are 35” above the floor. For listening sessions, I could slide the right OB away from the west wall where I’d normally keep it to then be in front of the doorway. However, the place for the left OB would be impossibly cluttered, leaving no more than 3 ft behind it-before encountering my left floor standing TV speaker behind my 32” TV, none of which I want to part with. And there would be only a few inches between the left OB and the East wall and the 32” TV to its right.

While I’m no one’s kind of speaker designer, presumably the need to maximize the OB’s distance from boundaries allows fuller wavelength excursions for low frequency response from, say, what those Eminence Alpha 12” LTA drivers, can generate-though I lack the first year college physics to understand the entire event. Sadly, unless I’m wrong it would seem that neither of my bedrooms have adequate space to draw decent LF response from those Eminence Alpha 12” LTA in OBs-at least down to 70Hz, to where my sub can take over. Yes or No?

Likewise, note the amount of space needed even for Jon Ver Halen’s Tiny OBs.  http://www.lowther-america.com/Cabinets/Open_Baffle_Speakers/, which otherwise would have worked for me. As stated here, the TOBs go down to 65Hz and even in my smaller bedroom I might have room for one of my Rythmik 12" sealed servo subs. http://www.rythmikaudio.com/technology.html built by Jim Salk http://www.salksound.com/salkrythmik%20-%20home.htm

And so, in my crazed pursuit of using OBs in one of my small cluttered rooms, I cobbled together this
system idea, which I hope won’t cause more problems than I think it might solve, as follows: The pair of sealed 15” midwoofers that I will be using in my three-way living room system. They are a pair of GPA Altec 416-8Bs http://www.greatplainsaudio.com/downloads/416-8B%20Spec%20Sheet.pdf They would be in the same low diffraction, 3 cu. ft sealed cabinets designed by fellow diyaudio.com
member Gary Dahl for use with another speaker project. Gary’s sealed boxes keep the 416s within their 700Hz to 70Hz comfort zone, thereby minimizing IM distortion. Gary, Lynn Olson, Jon Ver Halen among others have long known the Altec 416 to be a very unusual driver, and enjoy its almost “magical” sonic properties of this “PA” speaker in almost any kind of enclosure.  http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/100392-beyond-ariel-781.html and http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazine/equipment/1009/lowther_high_efficiency.htm Thus, to overcome the OBs’ room boundary issues for adequate low frequency response in very small rooms, I would place an Eminence Beta 12 LTA OB atop each Altec 416 midwoofer box.

There’s only ~0.3db difference between the 416 and the Beta LTA, so active crossovers are obviously not needed, at least for level matching. And aren’t sealed boxes the most forgiving of placement restrictions? If so, then their handling of everything from 700Hz down to 70Hz should take most room boundary problems off the Beta LTA OBs. Correct?

As for highs, while expensive it appears that the best solution by far would be a pair of 9” RAAL Lazy ribbons
https://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/ribbon-tweeters/raal-lazy-ribbon-9-ribbon-tweeter/  Along with excellent dispersion, their > 100db sensitivity would again remove the need for active
crossovers. 

Question: Depending on which of my two small bedrooms I’d be installing these hybrid OBs-and on which wall they are placed along-I’d be sitting between 7.5 ft and 12 ft away in one bedroom and between 8 ft and 9 ft away from them in the smaller bedroom. Gary’s Altec sealed midwoofers cabinets are 26” w x 15” d x 20” h. But assuming on-axis placement is desirable, how wide and how high does the OB panel for the Beta 12 LTA need to be, with each panel sitting atop each Altec midwoofer cabinet?

Obviously, these numbers would also impact placement for the RAAL ribbon tweeter, being either to the side or atop each Beta 12 LTA OB.

Another question: Would I be compromising a lot on sound quality if don’t at least partially crossover this system actively?

Btw, I would drive the system with my First Watt F4 amp http://www.firstwatt.com/f4.html via a tube preamp like this http://www.kandkaudio.com/line-stage-2/
 
As for Lowthers (in OBs atop the Altec midwoofers?), I’ve heard it said that most people either love them or hate them. Whether that be due to the “shout”-though apparently due to a problem with the driver’s whizzer that was banished more than 15 years ago-or the break in period or other personal listening preferences, I wouldn’t know. However, I’ve certainly been long interested in hearing them, particularly the Alnico models. But to best of my knowledge no has ever once done a Lowther show in New York City. Nor could I find Lowther owners there-or on Long Island, where I live-who might let me hear them.

On the other hand, everyone seems to love the sound of OBs in general; ditto for Alnico drivers, such as the GPA Altec 416s-particularly in low diffraction sealed boxes that cut their low end off below 70Hz. Despite having to contend with 3 cu ft midwoofer boxes in my bedroom, I’m hoping that I might have hit upon “a best of all worlds” system that works in at least one of my bedrooms.

But did I overlook anything?

Anything else good or bad about my bedroom speaker system idea?

How good do you think it might sound?
 


« Last Edit: 15 Nov 2015, 02:23 am by bellicon »

glynnw

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 991
  • I have tin ears.
Re: Lowther Open Baffles
« Reply #56 on: 15 Nov 2015, 03:52 am »
Can't answer all your questions, but FWIW I am using a pair of Jon's Tiny Alnico Open Baffle speakers with a pair of GR Research dual 12" open baffle subs.  Room is 20 x 20.   I first heard these speakers at show in Vancouver, WA in 2008 and loved them - they were the first Lowther's I liked.  Finally built mine about 4 years ago.  Even after attending 2 RMAFs, I have heard nothing in that price range that I would prefer.  I have thought about adding the RAALs but very spendy for a retired guy.

bellicon

  • Jr. Member
  • Posts: 45
Re: Lowther Open Baffles
« Reply #57 on: 15 Nov 2015, 06:58 am »

Thanks for your reply. Which Lowther drivers do you have in those TOBs? And the Tone Tubby Alnico Red for midbass? Passive or active crossovers? Your amps?

 

Poultrygeist

Re: Lowther Open Baffles
« Reply #58 on: 15 Nov 2015, 10:04 am »
I'm not one to over think such projects. If it were me I'd jump right in and start by mounting the 12LTA's on a flat baffle to see how they sound. It's not rocket science and MDF is cheap.

The only Lowthers I've heard are my DX3's and I hear no shout. From what I've read the rolled edge whizzer took care of that in the newer models. The DX3's play high enough for my ears so I don't feel a need for tweeters.

glynnw

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 991
  • I have tin ears.
Re: Lowther Open Baffles
« Reply #59 on: 15 Nov 2015, 04:35 pm »
Using PM6A as called for in TAOB plans.  Passive crossover in speaker.  Subs amp crosses them in at abt 100.  Main amp is Shindo Montille.