AudioCircle
Audio/Video Gear and Systems => The Lab => Topic started by: Bob in St. Louis on 21 Aug 2009, 12:46 am
-
Rant...........
This is a seven year old house, so you wouldn't think there'd be much in the way of electrical problems.
But alas....... :roll: there is.
For the first time this year, we've had a real bad problem with voltage fluctuations. It was my assumption that the outside AC unit was the culprit since the house lighting dimmed badly when it engaged. The brown-out was bad enough that it would turn off my Harman Kardon AVR receiver and my projector.
That's bad. Very bad. :o :nono:
This, despite the fact I've got a Belden UPS installed to save these components from just such a problem. As it turns out, I think the battery's in the UPS are bad, so it's essentially just a large power strip. That's a problem for another day.
I had an HVAC buddy come over to check things out. He thought it was in my best interest to install a soda can sized cap on the outside compressor. For $45, I figured, "Sure. Why not".
Didn't help at all.
Drastic times call for drastic measures. Right?
I wired my Fluke 83 to an outlet and set it to record "Min/Max" voltage. When I installed it, the voltage was about 115. Ok, fine.
Within the first 24 hours the Min/Max ranged from the high teens to the low 120's.
Ok fine.
The next day though, I saw a reading of 98 volts. :evil:
Thought it might be a good idea to check the breaker box inside. Hanging on the wall outside my house is a 200 amp breaker that will shut off the entire house. I tripped the breaker. Back inside at the main breaker box I ran a screwdriver down all of the bolts, on each and every breaker. They're all tight. Then I get an allen wrench to check the torque on the main lugs. They're a "little" loose, but not alarmingly so. With high hopes I turn the power back on to the house and reset the Fluke meter to record.
The next day I get a Min voltage of 80.4 volts............. :o
Time to call the electric company. This isn't good.
The guy comes out, checks things over and says, "It all looks good. You should be fine now".
"What did you find" I ask.
"Nothing, it's all good. You've got 240 volts at the transformer, 240 volts in your box. It's split up on two legs, each carrying 120 volts". :roll:
"No.....It's not". I tell him about the Fluke still plugged in, and still holding the 80.4 volt reading. I showed him the current reading of 116 volts. (good). I showed him the Max voltage of 124 (great). Then I show him the 80 volts.
He about shit himself. :lol:
Good. Now we're getting somewhere.
He put in a work order to have a "recorder" installed. Basically the same thing I've got going on with the Fluke, but I understand they need to see it themselves with their equipment. That was yesterday. He said it would take a day or two for them to install the unit.
By the way, the transformer hanging on the utility pole was installed when my house was built. It only serves my house.
We'll see. Wish me luck.
Please pray for my equipment, that it doesn't fry. :|
Bob
-
Hey, Bro, hang in there! I'd be real curious about what they find out.
Too bad they charge by the watts and not the volts. :|
-
Yea, too bad they don't refund based on damaged equipment either. :duh:
Bob
-
Wow. Bad news. It'll be interesting to see what they come up with for a cure.
My own personal cure is the Dodd Battery Pre, a battery powered Buffalo Dac. Now if only I could get enough watts out of a new Dodd battery amp to run my LS9's.
-
The squeeky wheel gets greased. Keep the pressure on and they are likely to do something. It is not everyone that breaks out a fluke to prove their point.
-
Man, that sucks. You'd think with your own transformer you'd be golden. It pisses me off when I drop down to 102 volts during peak A/C season-like now. But, I share my transformer, (as best I can tell), with about 5 or 6 other houses.
It hasn't happened to me this year, but last year, a couple of days my amps wouldn't turn on because of low voltage supply. It was around 98 volts at the time.
-
Agreed. If you're the only one tapping a transformer, you should be OK unless the big line in is really crap.
Bryan
-
This is a seven year old house, so you wouldn't think there'd be much in the way of electrical problems.
You'd be surprised at some of the workmanship(or lack thereof) that makes a typical modern house.
But this looks like a utility company supply problem. If they can duplicate your findings, its their responsibility to correct.
Good luck man.
-
I've had my ups and downs with my electricity over the years always looking for the best power for my system as possible. I recently discovered a fantastic solution that makes me "immune" from the power company and any electrical problems. I installed a Liebert GXT2-3000 3 kVA on-line "double conversion" UPS. Liebert has an excellent reputation for making some of the best UPS systems around.
In any event, I have rock steady 24/7 pure sine wave 120 volt output that is regenerated from the "double conversion" process. I added two additional battery cabinets giving me about 12 hours of "standby time" in the event of a power outage and probably about 2-3 hours of running my system at normal playback levels. The Liebert will do a user programmable battery self test every 7, 14, 21, or 28 days to make sure they are functioning and charged.
It's part of an overall system. 240 volts feeds a MGE/Topaz Power-Supress 100 5 kVA isolation transformer. 30 amp 120 volt output feeds the Liebert UPS. The 30 amp output on the Liebert feeds my Furman IT-Reference 20i which distributes the power to my components. All wiring is JPS In-Wall AC cable.
This is by far the best sounding set up I have heard in my system and I've tried a lot of "power conditioners" over the years.
At some point I plan on posting my process with the Liebert. It's not for everyone and requires some "modifications" but the results are amazing.
-
Bob, when you measured the Line Voltage using your Fluke 83 min/max mode. Was the time period 100ms or 1 second. The 1 second mode is probably a more realistic selection. Do you have anyway to measure AC current (10Amps) ? A Kill-a-watt or a current probe. Then you could measure the source impedance of the AC line to your house.
-
Frank,
Sounds like a good solution. But why use the Furman?
-
Bob:
Like Josh says: "Keep the pressure on....". If they reproduce your findings, it is likely they will replace the pole transformer with a new one or give you your own, if it is shared.
Chris H.
-
Also have the power company check the neutral wire from your main breaker box to their transformer. I never realized how often the neutral wire gets flaky. Then the voltage hot to hot stays at 240V. But the voltage on each leg changes with the load on either leg. That is one leg could be 110V and the other 130V. Then when the loads change the leg voltages change also.
-
Frank,
Sounds like a good solution. But why use the Furman?
Logical question.........to take advantage of the 3 kVA rating of the Liebert I wanted to use the 30 amp output. The 30 amp output is on a fixed 12 inch 10 gauge cord terminated with a 30 amp female plug, hence there are no outlets to plug any gear into. I already owned the Furman and can distribute my equipment very nicely with the outlets designated for amplifiers and the balanced power outlets for source components. I simply made my own cord using Oyaide EE/F-S 2.6 bulk AC cable terminated with a 30 amp male plug for the Liebert and an Oyaide C-246 20 amp IEC end for the Furman.
When listening to two channel even at high volumes, the Liebert load level indicator is between 25%-50% (never seen it go higher) indicating there is plenty of headroom left. When my full home theater is going the load level indicator is between 50%-75%.
-
Bob- I'm sure you'll get it resolved after they review the readings on their recorder. I'm fairly certain the utility companies are mandated and required to deliver voltage that is within a certain +/- % of the 120 volt standard. Your readings are way off so they will be required to do what is necessary to correct them.
Just make sure if they change your transformer you ask them to cryo it for a least 72 hours and use some contact enhancer on reinstall :lol:
-
Good words, and good advice men. Thank you.
Still no contact from the electric company. Being a Friday night, I have my doubts I'll hear from them until next week.
Seconds ago (literally), we got another brown out. The boy was playing PS3 online and the receiver and projector went off. The "thump" from the speaker doesn't make me very happy either.
It's possible the main line from the transformer was nicked during installation and has taken 7 years to corrode to the point where it's starting t break down. (I have underground service) I am the only house on this transformer, so I'm "all alone", but I do think a person should be entitled to decent and stable power. So if I need a new transformer, I think that's what they should do. I'll talk to them about giving it a cryo bath. I'll let you know how that works out. :lol:
Most of Franks solution is over my head as I haven't heard of, or researched any of the model numbers he's listed. Sounds very interesting though.
I've got some pretty radical ideas to provide my entire room with stable power. Might have to get serious about those someday.
Speedskater, I had the meter on 1ms.
I don't think the power drops out for that long of a time period, which is why I chose the 1ms setting. Granted, that's a fairly quite "sample" of time, but the big question is.....is it quick enough for the H'K receiver and the projector to power down?
I know the legs in the main breaker box will sum to 240V. But what scares me most, is that if one leg went to 80volts, that means the other leg (momentary as it may be) went to 160Volts. :o
I'd be willing to change the meter setting to a longer time period, but I've still got the 80Volt reading captured. I'd like to keep it if case they want to see it.
Bob
-
I think that any piece of audio equipment that's worth it's salt should be able to deal with a graceful voltage sag for the better part of a second. I mean you payed extra for units with big power supply capacitors, right? 20 years ago, a UPS design engineer told me about neutral problems at his neighbors house that routed all his neighbors neutral current over to his house through the water pipe. I thought that was a rare event, how in the electrical forum, I read about events like this all the time.
-
Frank's Liebert goes for around $2k retail from poking around on the net. But, ebay has some used ones for under $200 shipped. Its tempting to give it a try.
Do the units come with the batteries or is that all seperate?
-
I got mine on Ebay for $249. It was a steal. Needed a little cleaning and compressed air, but the internals were excellent. The internal batteries were also in perfect operating condition and tested 100%. I changed the three internal 80mm PC fans to ultra, ultra quiet 16 dbA fans and they are undetectable from my listening position.
There is a set of internal batteries in each Liebert and one can add as many external battery cabinets as you want. Through Ebay I got two brand new external battery cabinets for $250 each. Another good deal. They are just a big heavy (105 lbs each) black cabinet that are the same size as the UPS and look exactly the same minus the user controls on the front panel. They connect to each other with a heavy 10 gauge proprietary connector.
A Liebert "confguration program" software communicate with your PC and you can change parameters and tell the UPS how many external battery cabinets are connected.
With a 10% load (probably my system in standby) I'm theoretically good for 764 minutes on battery power. :thumb:
-
I think that any piece of audio equipment that's worth it's salt should be able to deal with a graceful voltage sag for the better part of a second.
Umm....Yea, but..... I wouldn't call 80 volts "graceful". And I wouldn't call a full second of time a reasonable amount of time to ask an electronic device to stay active. Maybe a tube amp, sure....But solid state, I wouldn't think so.
Frank, thank you VERY much for the heads-up. It'll be a while before I can seriously explore those options, but I've moved it up my "to-do" list.
Bob
-
Frank, how is the Liebert on dynamics? I run my front end stuff on a balanced power tranformer (Risch style) but haven't used my amps on it given my concerns for dynamics compression. Would be cool to get more detail on your setup...maybe a separate thread.
Thanks,
Jim
-
Would be cool to get more detail on your setup...maybe a separate thread.
........With pictures. aa
-
Frank, how is the Liebert on dynamics? I run my front end stuff on a balanced power tranformer (Risch style) but haven't used my amps on it given my concerns for dynamics compression. Would be cool to get more detail on your setup...maybe a separate thread.
Thanks,
Jim
Jim- the Liebert is great on dynamics- something I'm very aware of with my SP Tech speakers. However the Liebert is not a balanced power transformer. It is an online "double conversion" UPS system. I'm feeding 120 volt 30 amp regenerated pure sine wave AC to my Furman which distributes to my components. The balanced transformer inside the Furman is for source components only, not for amplifiers. I believe you can run amplifiers off some of the bigger balanced transformers (i.e. Torus, Equitech, etc.).
Also my 5 kVA isolation transformer is probably not necessary with the Liebert but I already had it installed and like that it is being fed 240 volts and stepping it down to 120. Kind of a first line of "cleansing" and protection. :D
I should reiterate that while the Liebert UPS does everything I want from a "power supply" point of view, the sonics are amazing as well. My system has never sounded better! I have tried multiple power conditioners over the years and my setup now is the best for my system. Again it might not be the best approach for everyone, but given the piece of mind you get along with superior sound it might be worth investigating. Given what I have experienced I would easily purchase a new Liebert for $2000. I have spent far more and gotten a lot less.
http://www.purepoweraps.com/ (http://www.purepoweraps.com/) Pure Power APS just came out with a 20 amp double conversion on line UPS which is probably better suited for audiophile applications than the Liebert. Appears to be getting some great reviews. I used to owner their 1050 model years ago, but it couldn't power my whole system. Their 20 amp model is $2995.
This thread is what got me interested in the Liebert............
http://www.ultrahighendforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=40 (http://www.ultrahighendforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=40)
Also this one.........
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=781671&highlight=liebert (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=781671&highlight=liebert)
-
Sorry if I'm taking your thread off topic Bob. I hope to start a separate thread at some point with pictures.
-
No worries at all Frank, you're giving some great information here. Don't stop.
Although, if I went to my wife and told her I need to replace my UPS with a three thousand dollar unit, you folks would not see or hear from me again. Well, maybe on the side of a milk carton.
I've never heard the names Liebert and Furman until now. I did a quick search on Ebay to see what's out there. Found a few pieces of interest (including a Furman 31 band graphic EQ that looks neat). But I did find > THIS < (http://cgi.ebay.com/Liebert-Liebert-PowerSure-PSA-650VA-UPS-PSA650MT-120_W0QQitemZ190329692820QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item2c5088a294&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14#ht_2066wt_1092) Liebert UPS for $187. That looks more reasonably priced for a guy like me.
If you start a new thread, please feel free to post a link to it here.
Bob
-
Yep, this us great info Frank, thanks!!
Sounds like you can use the Liebert on amps with no issue. What I might try is the Liebert->balaced power transformer for my front end stuff and run my amps straight out of the Liebert. Maybe terminate the 30amp output of the Liebert with a power strip and the plug my balanced power transformer and amps into that. For ~$200, probably worth a shot, especially if you can modify it so that fan noise us not an issue.
-Jim
-
Good point about the fan Jim. The unit I linked to has a noise level of 40dB. :?
Bob
-
Mine has three fans (rated at 50 dBA) and it sounded like a leaf blower when I first got it. :nono: If the fan change didn't work I couldn't have used it because it has to be in the room with me. That's one of the reasons I jumped on the $249 Ebay ad because it wasn't too much of a risk if my project failed.
The fans were very easy for me to change. There was one if the front of the unit and two in the rear. YMMV but if you have worked on a PC you can probably change the fan. Just make sure you disconnect the main electrical input AND the batteries before working on the unit!!!!
These are the fans I bought...............
http://www.frozencpu.com/products/8398/fan-514/Noiseblocker_NB-Multiframe_M8-S2_80mm_x_25mm_Ultra_Silent_Fan_-_1700_RPM_-_14_dBA.html?tl=g33c165s356&id=6NRBIBnB (http://www.frozencpu.com/products/8398/fan-514/Noiseblocker_NB-Multiframe_M8-S2_80mm_x_25mm_Ultra_Silent_Fan_-_1700_RPM_-_14_dBA.html?tl=g33c165s356&id=6NRBIBnB)
-
I installed a Liebert GXT2-3000 3 kVA on-line "double conversion" UPS. Liebert has an excellent reputation for making some of the best UPS systems around.
I found a GXT2-2000RT120 (http://cgi.ebay.com/Liebert-GXT2-2000RT120-2000VA-Rack-UPS-w-Batts-w-WRNTY_W0QQitemZ290340702517QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item4399a78935&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14#ht_1530wt_1092)(as opposed to your "3000") on Ebay for $135 (current bid price).
Is this along the lines of what you're talking about?
Bob
-
Ok.....I just found a new "3000" for $206 (current price) with shipping.
Is > THIS < (http://cgi.ebay.com/Liebert-GTX2-3000RT120_W0QQitemZ250483234280QQcmdZViewItemQQptZPCA_UPS?hash=item3a51f6d5e8&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14#ht_1894wt_1092) what you're talking about?
Wow, that monster is 75 pounds?!?! :o
It'll be a while before I'm ready to spend the cash, but I really do thank you for the information you've been giving Frank.
Bob
-
Yup, that's the one Bob. 75 lbs for the "main" unit and 105 lbs each separate battery cabinet. I 'll try to post a picture shortly.
This was another pretty good site..............
http://www.upsforless.com/doubleconversionupss-1.aspx (http://www.upsforless.com/doubleconversionupss-1.aspx)
-
I've been given clearance from my director of financial affairs for a $200-$300 expenditure on a UPS.
Quite surprising given our current financial situation, but she knows how much this means to me and the possible consequences to the equipment.
Time for some more research.
Frank, your advise has been invaluable. Thank you.
Bob
-
Great news Bob. Just be patient- something good should pop up on E Bay. Try to determine what your needs are- the 2000 model is rated for 1400 watts and the 3000 model is good for 2100 watts continuous. I wanted my whole system off the UPS so I went with the 3000 model so I would have plenty of headroom. The Pure Power APS 20 amp version Model 2000 is rated for 1400 watts continuous as well so you might be able to get away with the Liebert 2000 model. 1400 watt continuous load is a lot of power.
Here are some pictures as promised.............You can see why I need the Furman or something similar to plug everything into. Too many power cords for just the Liebert.
(http://)
(http://)
(http://)
(http://)
(http://)
-
I've been giving serious thought to the "LIEBERT GXT2 3000RT 120", and have been checking the manufacturers website. The only thing that I'm concerned with is that it says in the input cable/plug is a NEMA L5-30P.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't that a 30 amp plug? I don't have any of those in the house.
How do I get around that? :scratch:
Would it be as simple as installing a NEMA 5-15P? Or would that not be recommended?
> HERE's a link < (http://www.liebert.com/product_pages/ProductTechnical.aspx?id=53&hz=60) to the Liebert spec page. The "3000" is on the far right....(You can click the model numbers of the other units to get them off the screen).
(http://www.42u.com/images/power-tower-xl-l530p.gif)
Bob
EDIT:
THANKS FOR THE PICTURES!!
Frank, I've got a LOT of equipment I'd like to have on the UPS being a HT room and all. Like you, I'd like to have some headroom too.
Do you have your PC connected to it?
I assume the two gray "modules" on the left are the additional battery cases?
Bob
-
I bought a male 30 amp plug and terminated my own 10 gauge AC cable to feed the Furman.
No PC on the UPS. I did use a PC to communicate with the Liebert to set my parameters, default settings, etc. Program worked perfectly. You can have the Liebert connected to a PC at all times if you would like. Yes the two vertical black cases are the external battery cabinets. You can orient them horizontally or vertically- doesn't matter.
I took a close up of the 30 amp output termination so you can see it.
-
Ooops! Sorry Bob- misread your post :duh: Yes, you would need a 30 amp receptacle to plug the Liebert into- 15 or 20 amps will not work. The 3000 requires a 30 amp 120 volt wall outlet. The 2000 model requires a 20 amp.
I'm fortunate that my electrical panel is about 5 feet away from everything so I can set up whatever I need very easily.
-
Ohh... :|
My panel is about 50' away and is already chock full.
Looks like I'll be searching for "2000" models. Damn.
Thanks for the info Frank.
Bob
-
A PS Audio Power Plant Premier might also be the ticket for this kind of situation.
-
Yea, I'm sure it would....but for $2,000, I would certainly hope so.
Waaaaay too far out of my price range.
It would be fine if you could take a "zero" off that price. :roll: :duh: :lol:
Bob
EDIT: On further investigation, there is one on Ebay for $1,000.
However, I doubt it has the capability "clean" voltages as low as the 80VAC I'm receiving, as it's not a UPS.
-
Fwiw I used to own the Power Plant Premier and just sold it a short time ago. mikel51 is correct that it will keep the voltage output steady at 120 volts and it is regenerated power albeit a different method than the Liebert. It wouldn't handle my whole system without the fans going into turbo mode. I think the Liebert is a better sounding unit, is built better, and is also a UPS- and is far cheaper if you buy a used one or refurbished.
-
Thanks for sharing Frank! I could really use one of these for its original purpose, for my PCs. I had a brown out take out one of my PC's motherboards. I still haven't recovered all the data from that one's HDs. I'd really hate to have my Vortexbox be taken out.
-
Update on the situation:
The tech guy from the power company came out this morning. He performed a few checks of the transformer, all showed good (no surprise).
He also tested the main feed into the meter box with a heat gun, all showed good.
Without turning the power off, he installed a machine that passively measures voltage. He said it works much like a seismograph in that it's got a roll of paper that scrolls. There are two "ink needles", one for each leg. They will measure the highs and lows of voltage only (no amperage).
He asked that I make a note of the time and date of the brown outs so he can compare them to what the machine says, as it also records time and date.
He will return one week from today, next Monday, to see what it says.
I'll be getting together with the wife to perform our own little "load test".
We'll turn on all the lights on the house, the dishwasher, clothes washer and dryer, hot water heater, my entire system, the air compressor in my workshop. Might even have my son use the vacuum cleaner at the same time. :lol:
I've reset the Fluke Min/Max readings.
Bob
-
Bob,
I think you need to coordinate with all A/C members. We should all "power up" at the same time.
Remember dude, we're all on the same grid man. 8) :wink:
-
:icon_twisted:.....I like that idea!
-
Remember dude, we're all on the same grid man. 8) :wink:
Hah! Same internet, maybe :D
Bob - sorry, I didn't read the whole thread closely, just skimmed it, but were you able to detect low voltages being associated with any particular time of day? (Like in the evening when everybody further up the line is cooking dinner...)
-
I didn't mention the time of day John, but it does seem to be worse in the evening hours. But in all fairness, that's also the only time of day when the entire system is on. During the day, I've only got half of it on. The worse thing that happens during the day is when the 'event' happens, the audio will mute for about one second, but nothing turns off.
The Fluke has been recording for about 24 hours. The Min/Max is 110 and 121VAC.
The low reading of 110 was enough I could hear the relays in the UPS clicking, but it wasn't bad enough to turn anything off.
Not too bad so far.
Bob
-
Learn something new about my fluke DMM every day!
Thanks Bob.
-
:lol: Yea, this meter has been my best friend for almost 20 years now. I used it on a professional basis diagnosing circuits in cars "back in the day". It's fixed lots of electrical gremlins, that's for sure.
But that Min/Max button is great.
For instance: You can set it to record, then poke, prod, and wiggle wire harnesses. It will beep when there's a new Minimum reading or a new Maximum reading. Works great for finding loose connections. aa
Bob
-
Two electric utility trucks arrived today. The fella that came last week brought another "brain" to help him diagnose the problem. He said that last Tuesday (the day after he installed the "seismic" ink needle scrolling wheel thingy on my meter box) they had found a capacitor bank a couple miles down the road with one bad cap in it. Now keep in mind, these caps aren't like the one's we deal with, they're the size of a small refrigerator mind you.....
The lowest voltage readings I recorded after that was 106, 107, 110, since last Tuesday. The equipment in my room has shut of three times since then.
I've also got a blue tint on the extreme right side of my projection screen. I assume this is due to the overheating since the projector has not been allowed to go through it's cool down phase so many times. :evil:
When he told me about the "seismic" ink needle scrolling wheel thingy on my meter box (for lack of the proper noun), I was imagining a roll of paper, like a cash register would have. But when he pulled it out of his box, it looks just like a 45 record, maybe slightly larger. They simply call it "the chart". It had recorded both legs of the power coming into my house for the past eight days. Right off the bat, he says I do not have a problem with neutral shift. He also admitted the problem was not in the house, it was further up stream.
That's when I did this --------->>>>> :bounce:
I had kept a journal of the times when the system shut down, complete with Min/Max/Average readings. He thought that was pretty neat and took my notes, along with the chart back to his boss for further review. I can't recall the exact term he used, but essentially it the equivalent of what I would have called a "voltage drop test". Basically, it's looking for a large drop in power between "them" and "me". They have the ability to monitor this remotely at their place.
Also, they'll install a different monitoring system at my house that not only measures voltage (like the one that's been here eight days), but also measures amperage. Not sure what that's going to tell them, since the problem is farther upstream and not in my house??
A few minutes after they left, the FedEx truck rolls in. He was bringing my new Liebert UPS. 8)
I'll be running a new line (from somewhere :roll: ) into my equipment rack dedicated for the UPS and sensitive equipment. I screwed up and bought the wrong type of 20amp outlet. :duh:
But in the mean time, I thought I'd take the UPS apart to clean the fuzzy, nasty stuff from it's innards. Much to my surprise, the inside looks like it just came from the factory. In case you're curious, I took a couple photos. The white material is a stiff plastic to help guide airflow. The battery would be on the left side, but I've already removed it.
A few things to note:
- The massive power cord. The green screwdriver is there for size reference.
- The largest ferrite magnet on the power cord I've ever seen.
- The large gauge twisted pairs inside.
This is a very impressive unit looking at the innards. I suppose it should be given the retail cost.
(http://i85.photobucket.com/albums/k60/BobinStLouis/LiebertUPS1.jpg)
(http://i85.photobucket.com/albums/k60/BobinStLouis/LiebertUPS2.jpg)
-
When I saw some of your posts in other threads, I wondered how your AC power problem was coming along.
What kind of 20 Amp receptacle did it need?
-
It requires a NEMA 5-20P, and I bought a 6-20R. :duh:
When I went out to purchase it, I left my notes at home. Since the outlet I saw at the store had one terminal "sideways", I thought it was the correct one. But as it turns out, the "sideways" one is on the wrong side.
I had no idea there are so many different types of plugs. :scratch:
What I need: (http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:fFUd3T9ls5DsfM:http://www.cdvkiln.com/NEMA6_20Rx100.jpg)
What I bought: (http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:V4gNfbi9oypAYM:http://lib.store.yahoo.net/lib/serverrack/nema-receptacle-5-20r.jpg)
Whoops......... :roll: :oops:
-
Looking good Bob. The Lieberts are certainly "overbuilt" and have very impressive innards. You probably figured it out already, but you can remove the two pins holding down the white material and clean under there as well....... :thumb:
Did you test the batteries with the front panel manual battery test? Should get 4 green and a an amber. It might take 24 hours for them to fully charge depending on how long they have been drained. Also I read somewhere it is better to let the unit run for 24 hours with no load attached to charge the batteries properly. Not sure if it is necessary. I did it anyway. Keep us posted............
-
Good info Frank, thank you! :thumb:
But I've not been able to hook it up to the AC power to charge it yet.
Tomorrow, I'll go find the correct plug. But yea....I want to get it up to full charge, then run a battery test. Thanks again for that info.
I've got seven days to return it, should there be a problem. So I'm going as fast as I can. The fact I bought the wrong plug...... :roll: ......I could kick myself.
Regarding cleaning the innards, like I mentioned earlier, the insides are spotless. I looked for SOMETHING that needed cleaning, but couldn't find anything. Even the fan blades are absolutely spotless....And I mean spotless.
Good stuff. I'm very happy. I'd like to give Frank a very personal and public "Thank You" for recommending this particular piece of equipment.
Bob
-
They (NEMA) have even more connectors:
www.electri-cord.com/NEMA-configurations.htm
-
Your most welcome Bob. You got an absolutely incredible deal for that piece. Just think- the "audiophile" equivalent of your UPS would be well over $2000.
Great to read your unit was that clean. Mine needed a little TLC but looks like new now.
FYI- I have the configuration software if you need it. You can hook it up to your PC and check the default settings if you want to and set a few parameters for battery testing etc.
-
Wow Kevin, that's much more than I knew existed. :o
Frank, as far as the software is concerned, my PC is 20' away from the rack "as the crow fly's". Closer to 30' if I route the cable through the ceiling as opposed to across the floor.
Yea, I'd like to use that feature, but......I won't be using it anytime soon.
And another thing, I've run out of USB and RS-232 inputs on the PC. Need some more ports, and money is getting thin.
Bob
-
Bob- it doesn't need to be connected all the time. You could bring the UPS to the computer. Just temporarily hook it up to see the settings and if they are where you want them you are done. That's what I did. Took all of about 5 minutes.
Did you have one or two fans on the 2 kVA? Looks like only one. Nice. I had three to deal with. Should be much quieter with only one fan.
-
Good point about using the USB on a temporary basis. I didn't know that.
Iv'e got a "RS-232 to USB" cable running from the PC to the rack anyway. I can "rob it" occasionally to check the UPS.
The unit has two fans. Both on the right side of my picture, one on top, one on bottom. Both are underneath the white plastic shroud.
Bob
-
The tech guy from the electric company came back out to install another type of monitoring system. This one fits between the meter head and the meter box and measures voltage and amperage on the two legs.
They've been remotely monitoring my power and said they saw no anomalies in the past 24 hours. Neither have I. My Fluke shows Min/Max of 117/123.
He spoke with his superiors and said that most likely they'll either install a booster station somewhere between my house and the substation (as the single phase line to my house is an abnormally long run), or they'll install a larger transformer on my pole. :o
I verbalized my surprise that a single house could overwhelm a transformer, but he said it's possible. Now maybe I can request one that's been cryo'd. :lol:
They're really bending over backwards to solve this problem. I'm slightly shocked (no pun intended) they're willing to spend this much time, and possibly a LOT of money to please a single customer.
I've got the correct NEMA 5-20 plug for the UPS, so I'll be running wires, installing and charging that today.
Bob's a happy boy. aa
-
Bob,
Did you get the 2000 or the 3000 version of the Liebert? Thanks.
Ken
-
Hey Ken,
I bought the 2000. In fact, HERE'S a link to the auction on Ebay (http://cgi.ebay.com/Liebert-GXT2-2000RT120-2000VA-Rack-UPS-w-Batts-w-WRNTY_W0QQitemZ290340702517QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item4399a78935&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14#ht_1530wt_1092).
The pictures are less than flattering. The outside is a bit scratched, but physically it's in very good shape. The front panel is cosmetically perfect, which is great since it's the only part you'll see from the front of the equipment rack. The inside is immaculate.
Bob
-
cool. I noticed you had to get a new outlet to accommodate the plug -- wonder if the 1500 model needs that mod. Also, is it at all noisy? Thanks.
-
I've got all the wiring finished. Since by breaker box was full, I robbed (tapped) power from my little daughters room. Definitely less than ideal, but until I can afford something better, this'll have to do. It's not like she'll be using anything that would disturb the circuit anyway.
Literally seconds ago, I plugged the Liebert into it's new plug. aa
"Smoke test" successful....meaning that I haven't seen any smoke. :thumb:
Ken, Assuming you're in the States, all of the models "smaller" than the 2000 require what we would refer to as a "normal" plug...that is a NEMA 5-15P (pictured below).
As far a decibel level, YES it's loud. It would not be acceptable in the same room as the listening position. The good news in my situation is that all of my stuff is behind a pretty thick tempered glass door with a rubber gasket around it. That being said, I can still hear it when the room is quite. When time and money allows, I'll be purchasing a couple of the super quiet fans that Frank linked to a couple pages ago. If memory serves, they're $17 each.
Also Ken, Here is a link (http://Here is a link) to the GTX2 line of UPS units Liebert sells. That's where I found what input receptacle is required for the various models.
Bob
{The "P" means 'plug', the "R" means 'receptacle'}:
(http://www.electri-cord.com/nema/images/5-15.gif)
-
I'm thinking about using one of the bigger models...like the 2700...and replacing the plug with a 15 amp plug. The biggest model with a 15 amp plug will only handle 1050 watts, which at 120 volts is only 8.75 amps.
The 2700 model can take 1890 watts which at 120 volts is 15.75 amps and only slightly higher than my line is rated for. The limiting factor will still be the breaker, which won't let you pull more power than the 15 amps. I want to be as close to this 15 amps as possible.
Anything wrong with this thinking?
Thanks,
Jim
-
Bob...thanks for the information. The noise part of the Liebert unit may present a big challenge to me in that my system is in the living-room, which doesn't have any place to "hide" the unit. Oh well. Nonetheless, thanks for taking the time to answer my question.
Good luck. And, actually, I'm not in the US as I live in Texas. :lol:
Ken
-
I think Frank said that the fans are replaceable making it something you can have in your listening room.
-Jim
-
Yes, Frank has his in the listening room. The fans he linked to (apparently) are quiet enough to be in the same room as his equipment, and him.
By the way, I removed the Fluke from the house outlet, and installed it into one of the Liebert outlets. In the last nine hours or so it has recorded a Min/Max of 120.4/122.8.
That's pretty darn stable. In all fairness, the batteries are still charging...Not sure if that'll effect how stable the output voltage is or not, but I'm pretty happy so far.
Jim, I asked Frank the same question about cutting the plug off the unit and replacing it with a "regular" plug. He wasn't too fond of that idea.
As a side note, the unit has run pretty cool in my rack so far. The fan outlet and top of the case are cool to the touch. I wonder if a fella could put a resistor on the fan to slow it down. The fans that are in there seem overkill. But then again, I've not "run it through it's paces" yet.
Not sure what it's BTU capabilities are. :lol:
Bob
-
I'm thinking about using one of the bigger models...like the 2700...and replacing the plug with a 15 amp plug. The biggest model with a 15 amp plug will only handle 1050 watts, which at 120 volts is only 8.75 amps.
The 2700 model can take 1890 watts which at 120 volts is 15.75 amps and only slightly higher than my line is rated for. The limiting factor will still be the breaker, which won't let you pull more power than the 15 amps. I want to be as close to this 15 amps as possible.
Anything wrong with this thinking?
Thanks,
Jim
Jim, the question is can the UPS start on a 15 Amp circuit? Maybe if you have a 20 Amp circuit anywhere nearby and the UPS has been un-plugged for a period of several days. You could recharge the batteries overnight on the 20 Amp circuit then move it to your listening room.
The 15 Amp breaker will only limit power (or current) when it trips! A 15 Amp breaker is rated at 15 Amps continuous, continuous is 3 hours. Audio equipment use high power only very intermittently. So if you can get the UPS started, you won't be limited by your 15 Amp breaker.
A Kill-a-watt meter is a fun toy for your system, but I think that they all have 15 Amp connectors.
-
I've run the Liebert through it's paces over the last 48+ hours.
I like this unit. Very much in fact. Today I did the shuffle game with eleven power cords. They all now go through the Liebert (with the use of power strips, of course). I was just able to turn on the second (of four) LEDs that measure the load on the unit. Illuminating the second LED is an indicator that I'm somewhere between 26%-50% of it's rating.
I had the Fluke on the Liebert's output for over 48 hours. The Min/Max is 120.8/123.2
I'm pretty happy with a voltage variance of 2.4 volts. Certainly MUCH better than 44 volts.
The guy from the power company removed the monitoring device from my meter after downloading what it's recorded the past couple days. As it turns out, the peak amperage was 162 when the A/C unit came on. The standard "running" amperage of the entire house was around 30, which means the A/C takes 132 amps to start. The tag on the compressor unit says the spec is 131, so that's dead on. Good thing, I'd hate to buy a new A/C compressor.
Again, the guy told me they'd either install a new, and larger transformer on my pole, install a capacitor bank "upstream", or boost the voltage "upstream".
Not sure if this is a blog of my electrical issues, or a review of the Liebert UPS. :lol:
Either way, I assume there's a couple of you still interested.
I owe Frank a public Thank You for directing me to the Liebert.
Frank....You're the man. 8)
Bob
-
Again, your welcome Bob. :thumb: Although the power company appears to be doing the right thing, it's nice to know your equipment will not suffer anymore power problems. It also sounds like you have plenty of headroom available with the 2 kVA version.
Did you test the batteries yet? There are some pretty good deals on E Bay right now. There's an external battery pack for your unit at a bid price of $10 (not sure what it will sell for). While not needed, it just a reflection of the type of AC system you can put together for WAY cheaper than the "audiophile" alternatives.
Bob- any comments on the sonics of the Liebert? Although we talk about the other tangible benefits, I think regenerated, on line conversion is the way to go for awesome sound as well. My system has never sounded better since I added the Liebert. A lot of audiophile products attempt to correct for problems on the AC line, whereas the Liebert pretty much eliminates them and keeps it that way regardless of what's going on with the power company. I used to hate when a small brown out would flash my system off due to low voltage and then quickly turn everything on all at once when it passed. In case there is a total power failure the UPS will give you plenty of time to power down and unplug you components (unless your not around.) That's one of the reasons I went with two external battery backs, gives me about 12 hour window to be around to take care of things.
-
I don't want to divert the flow of the thread, but I have a question that is relevant - is their any legislation on what power companies have to deliver in terms of voltage, and if so does anyone know the range they have to meet?
-
Philistine - Absolutely it's relevant. And a very good question.
Not sure if it's a law, but my electric company said that a 7% variance is their standard. Again, I'm not sure if that's a federal thing, or theirs. Seems to me that 7% is a pretty tight spec on 120VAC.
I'd be interested in hearing the law though.
Did you test the batteries yet?
Oh yea...I'm testing the batteries alright. :icon_twisted:
Right now as a matter of fact. I didn't do it per the manufacturers specs, I did it my way. aa
I yanked the cord. 8)
At a listening level of about 90dB, I had the following components running off the Liebert:
- Harman Kardon AVR 645 (big monster solid state home theater receiver. 550 watts max consumption).
- Behringer DCX2496 (not much power consumption. About 12 watts)
- Legion LSA-900 (800 watt amp) not sure what consumption is.
- 250 watt Plate amp (400 consumption)
- Jolida JD202a 40wpc Tube amp (not sure what the consumption is, but I'm sure it's a lot)
While watching the LED indicators, I continued to listen at about 90dB. After 23 minutes, I got down to the last LED, indicating that I've got less than 25% reserve power remaining.
Cool stuff. Frank, if we ever meet, you're getting a big wet sloppy kiss. :kiss: :wink:
As far a sonic benefits are concerned....Of course it sounds better. Because I've just spent money. That's why it sounds better. duh.
Honestly, I've not critically listened yet. No opinion just yet.
Bob
-
Sounds like the batteries are right up to spec. According to the manual, with a 30% load and the internal battery you would be good for about 26 minutes and with a 40% load about 19 minutes.
-
Now maybe I can request one that's been cryo'd. :lol:
Hey Bob, don't forget to have them custom wind the transformer with UPC OCC wire and line the case with Shakti stones. :rotflmao:
Best of luck and it's great to see someone get good customer service from their utility. There are some that have the attitude of "We don't care because we don't have to".
JakeJ
-
Jake, When the guy told me they might have to change my transformer, I almost asked about cyro'd..... as a joke of course. But I was worried he wouldn't get the joke and would want an explanation. Then I'd look like a jackass. Regarding the OCC wire....ain't gonna happen Brother. If I can't bring myself to ask about cryo, then I CERTAINLY won't give preference to a particular wire type. :lol:
Franks, Yes, I think I'm in great shape. To be honest, I would have been happy with one or two minutes of reserve time. If the power goes out in the house for an extended period of time, I've got bigger things to worry about than listening to tunes (meat in the freezer, climate control, keeping the family comfortable etc....).
If the power goes out for an extended period of time, I've got a large generator that does a great job of powering the necessities (including the system).
My biggest concern was damage to the system components due to the random shut-downs.
:!: IMPORTANT: If you're interested in purchasing a UPS....., Frank has privately taught me a little about how UPS units work. There is a difference. The method the Liebert uses is called "Online UPS", also known as "True UPS". This unit powers my system from the internal battery as opposed to the power provided by utility company. This, as a byproduct of the circuitry, will act as a power conditioner/filter to an extent. Most UPS units I've researched (by "big name" companies) use a circuit topology called "Line Interactive". This is a less desirable unit as the "trash" that's coming through your electric utility is being fed right into your equipment. Also, there's a certain amount of latency while the unit switches from AC to DC (battery backup), then back to AC. The biggest advantage of an "Online UPS" is that the "trash" is filtered out internally before your equipment see's it, as the unit is always running off the battery (and keeping it charged/charging in the background). This would translate into an audible/sonic improvement in your system since the power it's being fed is cleaner.
Quite possibly clean enough that another piece of "cleaning" equipment wouldn't be necessary?
Frank, (or anybody) please correct me if I'm wrong.
Bob
EDIT........Whoops.....I mean to give a link about the different topologies of UPS circuit.
HERE'S a link....... (http://www.pcguide.com/ref/power/ext/ups/typesOnLine-c.html).
-
I agree Bob, it's tough to tell audiophile jokes to the uneducated.
I also have a Liebert but much smaller. Mine was a throw-away, dumpster special from work. Cleaned it up and installed two fresh batteries and has been perfect ever since. It just runs my PC as I lost two power supplies and a motherboard due to not having the protection of clean, regulated power. Not a glitch since the Liebert was added and on the one power outage the PC didn't even know it happened. Calculations tell me the Liebert will power my PC for about half an hour before shutting it down and it emits a loud alarm when the utility goes down.
I'll also give a thanks to Frank S. His info is another excellent contribution to AC. :thumb:
BR,
Jake
EDIT for spelling (I hate it when I forget an 's')
-
Yep, huge thanks to Frank for the Liebert tip.
I scored a new 15A GXT2 on eBay for $102.50 + shipping. I'm going to give it a try on my front end stuff (ahead of my balanced power transformer). This will be in my listening room, so I need to pick up some of those quiet / silent fans, too.
-Jim
-
Good deal Jim!!
Which one did you get? If memory serves, there's several 15A models.
But it sounds like Jake got the best deal of them all. :wink:
Bob
-
Jim has it right- if you want to use something like the Liebert in combination with a balanced power product, it must be placed ahead of it. The Liebert would not power up if plugged into a balanced power unit.
When changing the fans, I just left the factory clips connected to the circuit boards and cut the wires (red & black) at the stock fan. I then cut the 3 pin connector off the new fan and simply spliced the the two wires (red>red & black>black) together. Most of the replacement fans have either 3 or 4 wire clips that are not compatible with the connection point on the board inside the Liebert.
I also lined the inside of the top cover and the front plastic faceplate with some PC Sound Dampening material to further absorb any fan noise. My unit has three fans (1 front, 2 rear) so I was trying to make them as quiet as possible.
-
Hmmm...this application of placing a Liebert ahead of the audio power conditioner does make good sense. Especially in my case as my Audio Magic PLC isn't a regenerator or a regulator. It is essentially a very good "grunge-buster", i.e. simply a filter for RF, EMI, and any other crap on the line.
The online double-conversion would feed the AM much nicer AC power and then it could do it's job on the grunge.
The Audio Magic was such a giant leap forward in overall performance on my system that I just couldn't do with out it. Thanks to Jerry Ramsey of AM for coming up with this stuff and thanks to AC member Mr. Pig (aka John Hoffman of Affordable Audio) for turning me on to it which included him bringing is AM gear over and letting me hear it on my system. I compared the RSA Jaco, the Majik Buss, and the AM all at the same time purely by coincidence and the AM gear was the clear winner. Just my .02 on that.
BR,
JakeJ
-
Bob, woops, totally forgot to put in the model. I got the 1500VA one...max size for a 15A line:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&Item=390088637699 (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&Item=390088637699)
It has at least one fan that I can see on the back. I'll take a closer look at it when I get it to see how many fans I'll need.
Frank, good tip on changing out the fans as well as the PC Sound Dampening material. I might give that a shot.
-Jim
-
I had several scraps of Owens Corning "703" (the stuff you'd made acoustic panels with) and placed them around, above, and below the Liebert. Works great.
Although, it wouldn't look very nice if your equipment is "front and center", but in my situation it works great until I can get the fans.
Good point about dampening material inside. Next time I crack into it, I'll put some in there.
I think I've got a couple one pound bricks of the HVAC/Electrical putty for residential use.
Bob
-
Wow that was some deal Jim. $102 for a brand new unit! You got all the accessories also. Nice.
-
I had several scraps of Owens Corning "703" (the stuff you'd made acoustic panels with) and placed them around, above, and below the Liebert. Works great.
Although, it wouldn't look very nice if your equipment is "front and center", but in my situation it works great until I can get the fans.
Good point about dampening material inside. Next time I crack into it, I'll put some in there.
I think I've got a couple one pound bricks of the HVAC/Electrical putty for residential use.
Bob
Make sure you leave room for good airflow, the 703 will also insulate the unit if you don't allow for airflow. Of course, the airflow will somewhat limit the sound dampening that the 703 provides.
-
Oh yea, I left the front and rear wide open. The Liebert is on the bottom shelf inside my rack. There was an open cavity about 10" tall under the bottom shelf that I filled with 703. I also put a full sized piece on top of the unit. Despite the 703 and the glass door, it's still kinda loud. The quite fans are a necessity for this situation, but especially anybody wanting it sitting out in the open.
Good machine though, I'm very happy.
Bob
-
UPDATE:
The tech guy from the electric company came out today with the recommendation from the bosses".
They believe they've diagnosed the problem. I need a larger transformer. Now remember, I'm the only house on this transformer. The unit hanging form the pole happens to be a 15kVa unit. Due to the draw from my 4 ton A/C unit combined with the rest of the house, they feel the existing transformer isn't big enough. They have a 25kVa unit but when the weather is at an extreme and we're really "suckin' the juice', that the problem would return.
Their solution is to hang a 50kVa transformer on my pole. :o
He answered my next question before I had a chance to ask it..."When".
The next thing that happens is a fellow from the engineering department will come out to analyse the pole itself. It may not be large enough to support the weight of a 50kVa tranny. Soooo.......One day I might look out my window and find their construction department crew ripping MY pole out of the ground and installing a larger (diameter) pole, and a larger tranny along with it. Depending on the work load of the engineering department and the construction department is going to ultimately determine how long it takes to get this done.
I'll tell you what guys, I'd really like to give some LARGE kudos to my power company; "Ameren UE".
The effort they've put forth to fix my "little ol' problem" has surprised me. I asked the tech guy what a transformer (and possibly a new pole) would cost them, but he didn't know.
I also asked if anybody else on my street (way back here in the woods) has had any problems. "Nope", he said.
So...to the guys and gals at Ameren UE......... :beer:
I'll let you know when there's an update, but it could be a while.
Frank, thanks again man. You've done a Helluva job as well. Much appreciated.
My Liebert work great.
Bob
p.s. Should I ask for a cyro'd utility pole to properly match the new transformer? :scratch:
-
Wow, hard to believe they'd need to upgrade to that monster for one house but I'd take it in a heartbeat.
Just wondering, haven't they ever heard of buried service and ground mounting the transformers? Seems like it would be cheaper and safer, at least from a storm standpoint. They tend to take that sort of opportunity to just switch it around here.
Tom
-
Hey Tom,
The tech guy was telling me that my single phase service goes from pole, to underground, then back to pole, then underground again in the mile or so it travels form "the big pole".
"That's unusual", he said.
My theory is that I'm soooo far out in the sticks, that every time a new house is built (extending the run even further) they just add on to what they've got. Now they're so far behind the eight ball with so much cable to bury, creeks to cross, poles to remove (easements to "prove") that they've put it on the back burner. Until somebody like me complains, that is. Being so far back here, I'm way down on their preventative maintenance list. They're going to take care of the city folk, and the high rent districts before they spend that kind of cash on us rednecks. :lol:
But yea, if they wanna put a monster transformer up....then more power to 'em. aa
Bob
-
They're going to take care of the city folk, and the high rent districts before they spend that kind of cash on us rednecks. :lol:
But yea, if they wanna put a monster transformer up....then more power to 'em. aa
Bob
a. That's a lousy pun.
b. Once the new transformer is up the next party's at BOB'S HOUSE
!!!!!!!
c. Free beer for all at said HT party!!!!!
ALLLLLRRRRRIIIIIIIGGGGGGHHHHHHTTTTTT!!!!
-
:lol:
A:
-- Yea.... After I typed that, I regretted using the words, "monster" in regard to AC power. :duh:
-- Also, I thought about editing my post and clarifying that it would be "more power to ME":. :lol:
Ok...You got me there Bob. On both counts.
B: Only if I get a job by then. If so, then it's game on. aa
Bob
-
:lol:
A:
-- Yea.... After I typed that, I regretted using the words, "monster" in regard to AC power. :duh:
Bob
Gotta be careful there, Bob, you will probably get a letter from Noel Lee demanding royalties for use of the word "m****ter!
:nono: :lol:
-
Gotta say, Bob, this has been one of the most interesting and informative threads I've enjoyed here at AC. Quite a story overall.
Where I live, in a rural part of the Pacific NW, I had wondered just how bad the quality of the AC is. While we don't suffer the brown out type of issues we have little spikes whenever they switch capacitor banks at the substations. These were installed to reduce the bigger spikes from the original older grid switchgear used to shift the power feeds on the grid. The fact that there is so much high frequency grunge on it was a surprise though.
I'm on a slow hunt for my AV Liebert now. :thumb:
BR,
JakeJ
-
Well Bob, ( in St. Louis), that's good news. I am very impressed with the power company doing this. I'll be less impressed though if it takes them a year to complete. :wink:
I'm also a little jealous as I drive up to my house and see how far away the nearest transformer is. I probably share the same tranny with 6 houses!
-
Guys
I wanted to follow-up on the Liebert I bought a couple weeks back (GXT2U 1500VA model). Hopefully Bob doesn't mind that I'm doing this in his thread, but I figured it was the best place given the info that Frank S. shared with us all here about these units.
Anyway, my setup is as follows: 25' Home Depot 10ga extension cord to a PS Audio Juice Bar II. The Liebert is plugged into the Juice Bar and my 3kva balanced power transformer is plugged into the Liebert. From the balanced power transformer (and so the Liebert), I'm running my cable box, 50" plasma, DEQX 2.6P, Sony PS3 and Popcorn Hour C-200. With the Liebert, I now have super stable 120v balanced power with battery backup for all of this equipment.
As the Liebert was going to be in my listening / living room, I replaced the two fans with the ones that Frank recommended. Stock, the unit is REALLY loud. With the new fans, it is REALLY quiet...essentially silent from my listening seat. Replacement of the fans was an easy process and I did as Frank did and just spliced the red and black wires of the new fans into the existing fan harnesses.
So far, so good!! The unit is only showing 1-2 bars of the LCD lit up indicating a load level of up to 26-50%. I still have my amps plugged into the Juice Bar II (and not the Liebert), but I think that with the existing load level, I could probably use the amps on the Liebert, too. Will try that out.
Anyway, super impressed with the Liebert so far especially for such a minimal investment (eBay!). The fan replacement is easy and really makes it listening room-usable.
Thanks Frank for the info you've shared about the Lieberts!!
-Jim
-
Jim, No Sir, I don't mind you're posting that here. Perfect actually. :thumb:
This thread had morphed into not just my voltage problems, but also great information about UPS units, and how cool of a guy Frank is. :lol:
Good to hear about the fans. They're still on my "to-do" list.
Good stuff!
Bob
-
Yep, Frank is definitely cool in my book. :thumb:
-Jim
-
You guys are both cool in my book. :thumb:
-Jim
-
The engineer from the power company just called. They're going to replace my 15KVa transformer with a 25KVa unit within the next couple weeks (at no cost to me). :D
They are not going to replace the 200 amp cable from the transformer to the meter head with a 400 amp cable. :cry:
Oh well. It would have been nice to have the upgrade (think: future expantion aa), but I'm really not asking for something for nothing. I'd just like the problem to go away.
Bob - Happy boy
-
################################################
-
Bob, before the power company gets to house house, maybe you should measure the source impedance of your AC line. I know that you have a good meter to measure AC voltage, do you have anyway to measure high AC current? (12 to 15 amps). A Kill-a-Watt meter is great. Also do you have a 1200W or 1500W space heater (the oil filed ones are best)?
-
#################################################
-
Dave, the run form the pole to the meterbox is all underground. The way it was explained to me was the wire, belongs to the utility company. As does the conduit running up the pole. The conduit is mine as soon as it comes out of the ground below the meter box. The box itself is mine, however everything inside belongs to them. kinda weird, but when it was explained it seemed to make sense.
The long and short (no pun intended) is that for them to install the 400 amp wire, I'd have to pay for the wire, the larger meterbox and the labor. They would supply the meterhead. In addition, anything inside the house would be my financial responsibility. As I've been laid off for almost six months, I doubt I could get wifey to agree we need an upgrade. The prospect of a 400 amp service was enticing to say the least. The first thing I thought about was having a dedicated 50amp sub-box at the home theater/two channel room, and another 50amp sub-box in the workshop. I've been wanting to have several dedicated runs of Greenfield (I think it's called), flexible metal conduit off a dedicated sub-box going to the audio/video stuff for a couple years.
I know exactly what you're talking about. Shielding at it's best! aa
But alas, it isn't in the stars at this point in time.
Mr. Skater, I do have a couple oil filled 1,500 watt space heaters, however I do not have an inductive attachment for my meter. I've seen the Kill-a-watt meters and would love to have one, but based on my above comment, I'm sure you understand why I don't have one. :roll: :duh: :lol:
Bob
-
##############################################
-
Well let's pretend that you have an amp-meter, it won't be as accurate but it will do.
First -we are measuring line voltage -mistakes could cause death!
I'll leave how you make the measurements and the safety precaution up to you.
Let's arbitrarily decide that 1500W at 120V = 12.5A.
Locate a receptacle near your main breaker box determine which phase or leg that it is on so that later you can repeat the test on the other leg.
Plug in the heater (turned off) measure the line voltage, the voltage will bounce around so try to get a feel for what's average.
Turn on the heater, read the voltage the same way.
The math:
V1 - V2 = E
12.5A = I
R = E/I
For example:
V1 = 124V
V2 = 122V
E = 124-122 = 2V
2V / 12.5A = 0.16 Ohm source impedance
-
Hey, Bob, you got PM.
JakeJ
-
I HAVE A NEW TRANSFORMER!!!! :hyper:
It took them about 45 minutes (in the rain) to replace it....In and out...wham bam.
Which is a good thing since I got down to 64 volts Saturday.
Thanks to our very own Frank, I was able to run an extension cord across the room to the Liebert UPS and keep the computer running the entire time. :lol:
So....It looks like this thread has run it's course. I doubt I'll be reporting on any more voltage issues (fingers crossed).
Again, I want to give a BIG thanks to Frank for the heads-up on the Liebert. And a BIG thanks to Ameren UE for the shiny new transformer. aa
Bob
-
Great news Bob! Glad they came through for you. :thumb:
I've really come to love the Liebert UPS system on both a practical and sonic level. Great stuff.
-
I HAVE A NEW TRANSFORMER!!!! :hyper:
It took them about 45 minutes (in the rain) to replace it....In and out...wham bam.
Which is a good thing since I got down to 64 volts Saturday.
Thanks to our very own Frank, I was able to run an extension cord across the room to the Liebert UPS and keep the computer running the entire time. :lol:
So....It looks like this thread has run it's course. I doubt I'll be reporting on any more voltage issues (fingers crossed).
Again, I want to give a BIG thanks to Frank for the heads-up on the Liebert. And a BIG thanks to Ameren UE for the shiny new transformer. aa
Bob
There is still this minor problem with the use of the term "monster transformer" in an earlier post :nono:
-
Yes, you're correct Doublej.
Monster Cables has issued a cease and desist against me using the word "monster" when referring to any type of device that involves the flow of electrons. Specifically in this case, the transformer hanging on the utility pole in my yard.
My attorney has ordered me to not speak further of the matter due to self incrimination.
Bob :wink:
-
Yes, you're correct Doublej.
Monster Cables has issued a cease and desist against me using the word "monster" when referring to any type of device that involves the flow of electrons. Specifically in this case, the transformer hanging on the utility pole in my yard.
My attorney has ordered me to not speak further of the matter due to self incrimination.
Bob :wink:
Seriously ? If so a bit over the top I'd say. Boycott.
charles
-
I think he's being facetious. If Bob were selling something with the "monster" moniker, then Monster Cable might take notice.
-
Yes, you're correct Doublej.
Monster Cables has issued a cease and desist against me using the word "monster" when referring to any type of device that involves the flow of electrons. Specifically in this case, the transformer hanging on the utility pole in my yard.
My attorney has ordered me to not speak further of the matter due to self incrimination.
Bob :wink:
Too late, Bob, you've already incriminated yourself in many, many ways. :lol:
Boycott 'em, anyway. :icon_twisted:
-
That thing out in your yard is a "pole pig".
-
Sorry Charles, Yea I was just kidding. I like to take the opportunity to bash "the Monster" when the time is right. They're a little too proud of themselves and deserve a swift kick in the balls occasionally. I was very glad to hear the rebuttal from the fella at Blue Jeans Cables was just that....a kick in the groin to the Monster. "Good on him".
"Pole Pig", I like that Skater, very funny. :lol:
Bob
-
Sorry Charles, Yea I was just kidding. I like to take the opportunity to bash "the Monster" when the time is right. They're a little too proud of themselves and deserve a swift kick in the balls occasionally. I was very glad to hear the rebuttal from the fella at Blue Jeans Cables was just that....a kick in the groin to the Monster. "Good on him".
"Pole Pig", I like that Skater, very funny. :lol:
Bob
No problem enjoying the fun. I like your sense of humor.
charles
-
I like your sense of humor.
Kick-ass! :D Let's see.....With, me, myself, and I....that makes four of us.
I'll put a fourth tick mark on the chart. aa
Bob
-
+1 :thumb: