DAC Comments in $1-2,000 Range

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Angaria

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Re: DAC Comments in $1-2,000 Range
« Reply #120 on: 2 Dec 2016, 11:03 pm »
Another vote for exasound here - by far my fav es9018-based dacs.

Freo-1

Re: DAC Comments in $1-2,000 Range
« Reply #121 on: 2 Dec 2016, 11:37 pm »
I have a Benchmark DAC2 DX.  Easily the best sounding DAC I've come across, by a LOT!


Benchmark just came out with the DAC3.  Gotta believe that it is even better than the DAC2.

jtwrace

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Re: DAC Comments in $1-2,000 Range
« Reply #122 on: 3 Dec 2016, 12:04 am »
I have a Benchmark DAC2 DX.  Easily the best sounding DAC I've come across, by a LOT!


Benchmark just came out with the DAC3.  Gotta believe that it is even better than the DAC2.
Does the DAC3 replace the DAC2 DX?  What is different?

mr_bill

Re: DAC Comments in $1-2,000 Range
« Reply #123 on: 3 Dec 2016, 12:07 am »
Just an FYI, I'll have an iFi Black iDSD unit in my hands in the next few days.  Just as context, I like the old/original silver iDSD better than any other DAC I heard up to the Vega at $3500.  I'm hoping the Black is a significant improvement on the Silver.

Tyson - I can't wait to hear about the IFI iDSD Black Label

mr_bill

Re: DAC Comments in $1-2,000 Range
« Reply #124 on: 3 Dec 2016, 12:07 am »
Dac3 has the new ESS Pro DA chip

jarcher

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Re: DAC Comments in $1-2,000 Range
« Reply #125 on: 3 Dec 2016, 02:31 am »
Oppo dealer margins are over 10%,,,,,but not much.  This is why you will never see an Oppo discounted......and if a dealer advertised it lower than retail then Oppo would drop them in a second.  Remember, Oppo also sells direct....so they would not want a dealer underselling them.  Oppo has the highest resale value of any product that I have ever seen.  What they do is ridiculously good.  They do use some junk parts in some places and they are not tweakers but the basic engineering is fantastic and they can be modded to the cow's come home.

You want to see value.....then look at Gustard, LKS and other Chinese products.  These guys are great engineers and the parts quality and production quality of these things (not to mention the sound quality) is though the roof good.  Basically, they are selling $3000+ products for under $1000.  Check out the pics of these products insides and compare them to other US made DACs under $4000......you will be surprised.

Not to quibble too much, but we are an oppo dealer and we don't make over 10%...... and we have to pay shipping!  Why do we sell it at all? Well it's good product and sometimes it makes sense for custom installation jobs where you make much more on the labor than you do on the gear.  Could never sell it at a discount because that would probably end up costing you money instead of making you money or breaking even! 

On the whole chi-fi  thing too I have to throw a little cold water on top. Yes, there are some exceptions and some exceptionally good Chinese made product. And if you look at that kitsune photo above : that's some beautiful audio porn.  But just because you collect all the best ingredients and lay them out pretty doesn't mean you've made an awesome meal!

It's interesting because early on I bought a highly rated Chinese dac : the matrix mini. It was some kind of quasi-hybrid knock off of a benchmark & bel canto dac. It had the full on laundry list of what was supposed to be great in a dac : dual mono, twin top-of-the-line analog devices dac chips, shielded linear power supplies,  and supposedly incredibly good measured performance.  In other words, the works, and for something like under $500 new retail. Audio Nirvana, right? One of the most boring and lifeless things I've ever heard! And I can't give that thing away now - much less try to resell it.

 Takeaway lesson: a good product, like a good meal, is more than the sum of its parts!   It's the chef and his unique experience and magic which makes a great meal. And with electronics, the chef is that engineer who knows how to work magic with the parts. That really is, or should be, most of what you're paying for when you buy something really good in audio. Putting the thing together and making it pretty is just part of the equation

So you can't just assume that it's going to be a great product from a laundry list of premium parts and a circuitboard which is nicely laid out.  I've even heard name brand highly regarded audio gear that had awesome parts and an absolutely beautiful circuit board, The kind of thing you want as a poster on your wall, which still sounded horrible.  One good example is Spectral. Looking at it from the outside and inside you want to love it, but once you hear it you want to run!

How do you avoid all that heart ache?  Listen to it before you buy it and try to be honest about what your ears and heart is telling you - not what you're looking at - or worse yet what some some so called expert claims before hand. You should be the expert on what you like in sound, if youre honest with yourself. Or as Frank Van Alstine here on audio circle is always fond of saying :  listen with your ears not your eyes! 

And if you insist that you don't want to visit an evil greedy dealer and let him help you or give him any of your money, then make sure whatever you're buying direct from has a liberal return policy! It's your hard earned money and time!

rajacat

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Re: DAC Comments in $1-2,000 Range
« Reply #126 on: 3 Dec 2016, 04:19 am »
jarcher,

Did you actually read the  review of the Holo Spring on Computer Audiophile by Audio Circles' High Rez Circle facilitator teb b?? It's very expensive and time consuming to audition a bunch of DACs. I try to find reviewers to trust and go from there. You have to take a chance. IMO  that's the way it is now with the downfall of brick and mortar audio stores . Even with the stores, it's still difficult to predict how a piece will sound until you get it home, relax and listen to it in your own system. You try to navigate your way . I've had fairly good luck so far.

jarcher

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Re: DAC Comments in $1-2,000 Range
« Reply #127 on: 3 Dec 2016, 05:02 am »
jarcher,

Did you actually read the  review of the Holo Spring on Computer Audiophile by Audio Circles' High Rez Circle facilitator teb b?? It's very expensive and time consuming to audition a bunch of DACs. I try to find reviewers to trust and go from there. You have to take a chance. IMO  that's the way it is now with the downfall of brick and mortar audio stores . Even with the stores, it's still difficult to predict how a piece will sound until you get it home, relax and listen to it in your own system. You try to navigate your way . I've had fairly good luck so far.

When it comes to audio I believe what I hear, not what I read, because what's important is what it sounds like to me and if I like it. Which is the way it should be for everyone. Trusting a reviewer doesn't come into it. You trust your own ears - or trusting someone who knows you and what you like to make a recommendation. Which is what a good salesperson at those disappearing B&Ms are supposed to do. And then you try it out at home.

A decent B&M or even Internet retailer or direct co allows you to try it at home. And if they don't you should shop elsewhere.

Sorry - there's no excuse to be lazy or take a shot in the dark, unless you like gambling with your money.




rajacat

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Re: DAC Comments in $1-2,000 Range
« Reply #128 on: 3 Dec 2016, 05:29 am »
When it comes to audio I believe what I hear, not what I read, because what's important is what it sounds like to me and if I like it. Which is the way it should be for everyone. Trusting a reviewer doesn't come into it. You trust your own ears - or trusting someone who knows you and what you like to make a recommendation. Which is what a good salesperson at those disappearing B&Ms are supposed to do. And then you try it out at home.

A decent B&M or even Internet retailer or direct co allows you to try it at home. And if they don't you should shop elsewhere.

Sorry - there's no excuse to be lazy or take a shot in the dark, unless you like gambling with your money.
Ah, I see...you're a dealer! :D

JackD

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Re: DAC Comments in $1-2,000 Range
« Reply #129 on: 3 Dec 2016, 06:06 am »
And the fact that he works for a B&M dealer doesn't mean his advice doesn't make sense.  If you buy based on internet "buzz" or reviews you spend your money and take your chances.  Kind of like last months DAC "flavor of the month", Gustard.  Great buy but needed mod's right out of the box to reach it's full potential.  Not a lot of talk or buyers lately.  The list is endless in all equipment categories. And in the interest of full disclosure I have been guilty too.

jarcher

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Re: DAC Comments in $1-2,000 Range
« Reply #130 on: 3 Dec 2016, 06:10 am »
Ah, I see...you're a dealer! :D

Yup - proudly one on the road to downfall.  :lol:

Rajacat -  not trying to slam your purchase of a Holo Audio DAC.  Just suggesting to folks that they should try things for themselves and buy from people, whether brick and mortar, Internet or direct from manufacture, where they can either try before they buy, or easily  get their money back if they're not satisfied.

rajacat

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Re: DAC Comments in $1-2,000 Range
« Reply #131 on: 3 Dec 2016, 09:22 am »
Yup - proudly one on the road to downfall.  :lol:

Rajacat -  not trying to slam your purchase of a Holo Audio DAC.  Just suggesting to folks that they should try things for themselves and buy from people, whether brick and mortar, Internet or direct from manufacture, where they can either try before they buy, or easily  get their money back if they're not satisfied.
You're stating the obvious. Of course its best to audition beforehand. OTOH even if someone came into your store and took each DAC home to try, there would still be a lot of dacs out there that they'll never have a chance to audition. Therefore they'll really never know if they found their "perfect" dac. :roll: You could spend weeks auditioning, A/B tests, etc and still not know where you stand until you live with the DACs for at least a month each. :banghead: All this compounded if you happen to live out in the boondocks.

OzarkTom

Re: DAC Comments in $1-2,000 Range
« Reply #132 on: 3 Dec 2016, 07:05 pm »
You're stating the obvious. Of course its best to audition beforehand. OTOH even if someone came into your store and took each DAC home to try, there would still be a lot of dacs out there that they'll never have a chance to audition. Therefore they'll really never know if they found their "perfect" dac. :roll: You could spend weeks auditioning, A/B tests, etc and still not know where you stand until you live with the DACs for at least a month each. :banghead: All this compounded if you happen to live out in the boondocks.

+1

I have personally found any DAC needs to be left on for at least 24 hours for optimal listening and this is after it is broken in. Taking your DAC to the B&M stores is a waste of time. The store DAC will probably beat yours every time and in reality that might not be true.

There are a lot of great sounding dacs out there now. I have heard a lot of the 4-7k days for 30 days or more.
Many dacs  takes 200-1000 hours to even burn in.

I have owned the Sony Music Server now for three years and it still sounds great to me. Sony's firmware upgrades keeps making it better sounding every time. I see these go for around 1k on the used market, one recently sold for 700 bucks.on EBay. :o

mr_bill

Re: DAC Comments in $1-2,000 Range
« Reply #133 on: 3 Dec 2016, 07:23 pm »
+1

I have personally found any DAC needs to be left on for at least 24 hours for optimal listening and this is after it is broken in. Taking your DAC to the B&M stores is a waste of time. The store DAC will probably beat yours every time and in reality that might not be true.

There are a lot of great sounding dacs out there now. I have heard a lot of the 4-7k days for 30 days or more.
Many dacs  takes 200-1000 hours to even burn in.

I have owned the Sony Music Server now for three years and it still sounds great to me. Sony's firmware upgrades keeps making it better sounding every time. I see these go for around 1k on the used market, one recently sold for 700 bucks.on EBay. :o

Tom - are you able to get Tidal or Pandora on the Sony music server?  I've wondered if the made upgrades yet to add these services.

OzarkTom

Re: DAC Comments in $1-2,000 Range
« Reply #134 on: 3 Dec 2016, 07:35 pm »
Tom - are you able to get Tidal or Pandora on the Sony music server?  I've wondered if the made upgrades yet to add these services.

At the moment, Sony provides Tune in and Spoitify. If that changes, a firmware upgrade will be provided. You can now hook up an outboard  hard drive and play that music also. I love the features on the Sony over any other DAC that I have ever owned. The SenseMe feature is hard to beat when you are playing your music.

jarcher

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Re: DAC Comments in $1-2,000 Range
« Reply #135 on: 3 Dec 2016, 11:44 pm »
+1

I have personally found any DAC needs to be left on for at least 24 hours for optimal listening and this is after it is broken in. Taking your DAC to the B&M stores is a waste of time. The store DAC will probably beat yours every time and in reality that might not be true.

There are a lot of great sounding dacs out there now. I have heard a lot of the 4-7k days for 30 days or more.
Many dacs  takes 200-1000 hours to even burn in.

I have owned the Sony Music Server now for three years and it still sounds great to me. Sony's firmware upgrades keeps making it better sounding every time. I see these go for around 1k on the used market, one recently sold for 700 bucks.on EBay. :o

Don't know where you guys are shopping but standard in home auditions are 1 week minimum - which is plenty of time to figure things out!

jarcher

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Re: DAC Comments in $1-2,000 Range
« Reply #136 on: 3 Dec 2016, 11:55 pm »
You're stating the obvious. Of course its best to audition beforehand. OTOH even if someone came into your store and took each DAC home to try, there would still be a lot of dacs out there that they'll never have a chance to audition. Therefore they'll really never know if they found their "perfect" dac. :roll: You could spend weeks auditioning, A/B tests, etc and still not know where you stand until you live with the DACs for at least a month each. :banghead: All this compounded if you happen to live out in the boondocks.

 Based on your comments I'm not sure that you really do have a good grasp of the obvious. You don't need to listen to every single  anything to find the perfect one: you just need to find the one that you like better than what you have and that you're willing to spend the money on.  And try before you buy  and relying on the good advice of people who know what you like is the best way to get there.  I know for myself if I had solicited and paid better attention to good advice in all matters I would've been farther along sooner to where I wanted to be.

 I really do hope your new dac purchase is everything you want it to be.   I like it when people make good purchase decisions. If I didn't feel that way I wouldn't of made it my profession to do so in the audio world

OzarkTom

Re: DAC Comments in $1-2,000 Range
« Reply #137 on: 4 Dec 2016, 02:18 am »
Don't know where you guys are shopping but standard in home auditions are 1 week minimum - which is plenty of time to figure things out!

30 days times 24 hours=720 hours. As I said some dacs takes up to 1000 hours and more to fully break in. I had one take over 1500 hours. I understand why so many here trades dacs before break in. Patience is a virtue when it comes to dacs.

jarcher

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Re: DAC Comments in $1-2,000 Range
« Reply #138 on: 4 Dec 2016, 02:54 am »
30 days times 24 hours=720 hours. As I said some dacs takes up to 1000 hours and more to fully break in. I had one take over 1500 hours. I understand why so many here trades dacs before break in. Patience is a virtue when it comes to dacs.

Very true re : warm up & break in. Our demo / loaners are broken in. Can't speak to other operations.

Tyson

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Re: DAC Comments in $1-2,000 Range
« Reply #139 on: 4 Dec 2016, 03:05 am »
iFi Black iDSD is in da house!  Right out of the box it sounds like.....it needs to break in  :lol:  I'll report back in a week or 2.