AudioCircle
Industry Circles => GR Research => Topic started by: petemoss on 16 Jul 2017, 12:49 pm
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I was wondering if anyone here had the ability to compare the X-statics to some of the Campbell - Holtz designs (anthology, statement)...they seem similar in philosophy. The execution is different for sure. Just wondering how they compare? The x-static kits are very intriguing to me..the family of speakers that can be made seem great in that line.
I recently heard a variant of the Cambell holtz design (at least the base section with the two dayton drivers and was totally blown away. Just wondering if anyone here has had the opportunity to compare the two families?
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2 very different speakers and different design approaches. The Dayton woofers have more output and go lower in response. In the bass department the X Statics really need a good sub to help out down low.
The rest is room and taste dependent. The X static needs 3 plus feet of room behind them to really sing. Diffusion on the wall behind them takes it up another level. The X Static is also friendly to narrow rooms and rooms with hard or reflective side walls.
The dome VS ribbon debate also ads to the complexity. I just know with all but the best recordings, the domes sound more natural. They are a bit forgiving of often poor recordings and streaming that most of us enjoy because a lot of artists don't record for us audiophiles.
If resolution and bass slam are your priorities, the Campbell Holtz design may best the X Statix. However, with some room behind them and a good sub, the X Statics are more likely to satisfy you long term with more software (music) available to enjoy.
Just an opinion from a long time X Static owner. I have bought and sold about 10 pair of speakers since I bought the X Static's. They sound great, look really cool and I don't have enough money in them to really matter. They are here to stay.
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The X statik was designed to hand off the last octave to a sub, but are not especially bass weak. I find them sufficient for everything except large orchestra and the fullness of the lowest octave on a 9 foot grand piano... and for that I have a single two 12" OB servo sub. In a medium/small room, that is more than enough bass.
They make just about every short list of great value speakers.
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I have a few customers that went from their Statements models to X-Statik's. Maybe they'll chime it.
The design philosophies couldn't be more different actually. They go in directions that I avoid like the plague.
I don't care for the metal cone drivers and especially the Dayton reference line. They sound very veiled and muddy to me, and they have sever ringing in the upper ranges. They could be used for low bass only, buy in their designs the high crossover points allow them well into the mid-range.
They also use very high crossover points. This doesn't allow the drivers to blend very well and causes out of phase cancellation effects in the vertical off axis that cause un-even room responses. It also diminishes the cohesiveness of the speaker and allows one to easily pin point locations of the tweeter, mids, and woofers. I tend to focus on transparency, sound stage layering, imaging, and presentation. Their design goes against those things by design.
And while the ribbon that they use is very nice, crossing it to the mid at 3.5kHz means it isn't even handling the delicate upper fundamentals. It is limited to only upper level harmonics. The mid is having to handle all the fundamentals. The tweeter in the X-Statik crosses in the 1.8kHz range. So the much more delicate details are handled by a much faster and more capable driver than a mid-range driver.
The low crossover point of the X-Statik also produces a much more accurate vertical off axis response.
And the vocal region of the open baffle X-Statik is on another level all together. You just can't get there in a boxed speaker even using the same high quality drivers let alone the drivers used in those designs.
I also tend to focus more on parts quality, wire, connectors, and everything that effects the signal transfer.
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I also make sure that the impedance loads of our designs are such that they can be easily driven by anything including tube amps. Even our multiple driver models are nominally 8 ohms. Impedance levels in the 3 ohm range or less really limit what they can be driven with.
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Thanks all for your feedback. I really appreciate it. It is such a shame that written words are so inadequate in representing the aural and emotional experience of hearing a set of speakers.
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I have been listening to my X-Statiks while I have been refinishing my Wedgies.
It says a lot for a speaker when you go from something as good as the Wedgies and
still can be completely satisfied with the performance.
Have never heard any of Curt's speakers but I have built speakers using the drivers he
uses. I don't like metal cone drivers either. They are just grating on my ears. Maybe
that is the ringing Danny is talking about.
The X-Statiks have to be one best values in audio and the most well rounded speaker out
for the money. They are quite good with the stock crossover and with the Sonicap upgrade
and NoRez they can compete with many much higher priced speakers.
One of my favorite looking speakers too.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=127479)
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Keith yours are gorgeous.
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I have been listening to my X-Statiks while I have been refinishing my Wedgies.
It says a lot for a speaker when you go from something as good as the Wedgies and
still can be completely satisfied with the performance.
Have never heard any of Curt's speakers but I have built speakers using the drivers he
uses. I don't like metal cone drivers either. They are just grating on my ears. Maybe
that is the ringing Danny is talking about.
The X-Statiks have to be one best values in audio and the most well rounded speaker out
for the money. They are quite good with the stock crossover and with the Sonicap upgrade
and NoRez they can compete with many much higher priced speakers.
One of my favorite looking speakers too.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=127479)
Do you have some pics of your build? I am building the x-statiks myself and would like some guidance on the norez installation and even veneers or what other options I have for finishing the MDF ?..
Thanks
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Sorry no pictures of this build.
would like some guidance on the norez installation
There are quite a few builds showing the installation of No Rez. It is easy, it cuts like plywood
on a table saw. Just draw some plans to maximize the use of the sheet and since it goes on the inside
you can also use scraps to fill in areas.
The number of sheets Danny recommended was a little short so the bottom 3-4" of the cabinet was not covered.
veneers or what other options I have for finishing the MDF
I consider speakers as furniture so veneer is the only option for me. I am not really a fan of painted speakers but that
is up to the individual as what they think they can do a nicer job with.
My X-Statiks were made with raw veneer from Veneersupplies.com and applied with Heat-Lock glue. Although raw veneer
is harder to apply than paper backed veneer, I think the ability to see the raw veneer you are buying makes the effort worth it.
The base and the baffle are actually 2 different types of walnut veneer. Solid walnut was put in the corners so they could
have a small round-over on the edges. The base and baffle were veneered first and then assembled afterwards.
The plans for the X-Statik have the 1.5" front baffle going all the way down to the bottom. I changed them and put a 10" L
piece of 3/4" MDF on the bottom front of the base and made the 1.5" baffle 10" shorter. I think the offset baffle looks much better than the full
length baffle.
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I used a combination of paint and finished wood. My front and back panels were figured maple plywood with a light cherry stain, strips were a matching mahogany that I already had. The sides were truck bed liner with a light dusting of "granite" spray paint. Turned out better than expected.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=99552)
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I used a combination of paint and finished wood. My front and back panels were figured maple plywood with a light cherry stain, strips were a matching mahogany that I already had. The sides were truck bed liner with a light dusting of "granite" spray paint. Turned out better than expected.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=99552)
With the xstatiks how did this make the sound using actual wood as opposed to MDF? I am trying to decide what type of wood would be best for this design....
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Understand that the construction was a combination of MDF sides, top, and bottom and maple 3/4" plywood for the front and back baffle. The edge stripping is mahogany veneer. Personally, I like plywood for front baffles as it is stiffer than MDF. Since the top of those speakers are extended, I like the strength of 1 1/2" of plywood vs MDF.
No solid hardwood was used. Unless your last name is Stradivarius or Steinway , resonating woods are to be avoided.
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My X-Statiks are made out of 18mm Baltic Birch. I remember before I built them playing around with
a 1-1/2 x 8"-4' piece of MDF at work and felt it just flexed too much to use as a baffle.
After seeing the picture of the other X-Statik, I remember that I changed the plans to make the baffle 1-1/2"
thick the full length of the baffle. It just seems that it would be much stronger.
I have rebuilt speakers made of MDF with BB in the past. Can't say for sure they were better, but they definitely
were not worse. And those speakers were made of pre CARB MDF not todays junk. I really like working with BB.
Cuts beautifully with hardly any dust.
I think that there are really only two practical choices for building quality speakers today. True Baltic Birch, which comes
in 5x5 sheets and in metric thicknesses, and MDF from Sierrapine/Ampine or Plum Creek. You will need to go to a
speciality lumber yard to find these and pay a little more, but it is worth it for any of Dannys speakers.
Stay away from 4x8 BB lookalikes if you don't know plywoods. Some are great but many are terrible. Stay away from other
plywoods and MDF from Home Depot and Lowes and those type stores. They rarely have anything in stock that is suitable
for a quality speaker cabinet. Any plywood, other than BB, that is suitable for speaker building is going to be quite a bit
more expensive than BB, so why not use BB.
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I got my maple plywood from a local family owned cabinet/furniture shop. I went through a ton of their scrap and only found a very few voids... better than the Home Depot baltic birch stuff. It's probably expensive, but they gave it to me for free. When I was teaching they used to sponsor a lot of my students speaker projects.
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only found a very few voids.
That is why you should stay away from plywoods other than BB for speaker cabinets. If the plywood grade
you are using has voids, that also means it can contain loose pieces within the plies that will rattle
and buzz when using the speaker. Plywood used for speakers must be void free like Baltic Birch.
And when I say Baltic Birch I am talking about true BB that comes in 5' x 5' sheets and is in metric thicknesses.
Not the imitation BB from China HD sells.
For any kit Danny sells it is well worth it to go down to a speciality hardwoods store and get some quality MDF or BB
rather than taking a chance at a big box or hardware store.
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Around here HD and Lowes carry furniture grade birch plywood. However they do not stock Baltic Birch. I can special order BB plywood but I have to drive to the distributer and pick it up.
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I bet that if you looked at enough of any BB ply, you'd find a void---specialty store stuff included. And it's unlikely to have something loose in it. I'm not worried about one or two. The point is that it is likely a step up from MDF when used in the X-Statik.
And for some of us, to drive down to the specialty hardwood store is about a 6-7 hour round trip.
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Hey, here's a conversation I can contribute to. As far as some guy with a saw in his basement goes, I run through a fair amount of BB ply. The good BB you get at an actual lumberyard like Austin's or Frank Paxton is better than anything you'll get at the big box stores. It is not voidless, but pretty close. I make a lot of exposed plywood edge things and have only very very rarely had it be an issue. BB dust is much less annoying than MDF. BB is I think much lighter as well which is important for a solo guy like myself.
It is available in both 5x5 sheets and 4x8, but the 5x5 is generally significantly cheaper on a sq ft basis. I'm told that is because it packs into shipping containers more efficiently.
BB is much stronger than MDF for something like speaker building. It is stiffer. It holds screws much better. It may not be as acoustically dead, though, I don't know how I'd measure that or even what I'd search for.
MDF is much easier to get a nice smooth finish on. BB has grain that needs to be dealt with. You can get a nice smooth finish on it, but it takes more work. And, I've found in general, your seams on BB will eventually telegraph through. A piano-black finish will bring out all shortcomings. If you really want a smooth seamless finish, veneer it first or basically encase the whole thing in Bond-o before spraying.
On the other hand, if you procrastinate and just leave your BB projects unfinished for a while, people begin to assume you're making a modern fashion choice. They never think anything good about unfinished MDF.
But this is off topic and I'd love to hear more about the X-Statik's from people with them.
Mike
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well I got my kit from GR so now I am going to select the cabinet material and go from there. I am leaning toward the BB as recommended by a few in here. I do not have the tools needed to make the cuts from the plans so I am going to get a local carpenter to help me with that...
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Since I can't say for sure BB is acoustically better for cabinets, it really comes down to how you are going
to finish the cabinet. BB is the best choice if you are veneering because the veneer adheres much better
to the edges than it does with MDF. But if you are painting your speaker use MDF, it is much easier to paint.
Both BB and MDF are flat and cut beautifully, but I hate MDF dust. It will be everywhere in your shop, in your cabinets,
in drawers, just everywhere. All that dust and I always veneer speakers is why I use BB.
I also made the baffle 1-1/2" the entire length of the baffle. Don't know why the baffle in the plans were designed that way,
but a full length thick baffle would certainly be much more rigid and stronger structurally, especially if using MDF.
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thanks for your advice. I am also going to make the front baffle as you suggested. I decided to go with MDF since I have 2 subs I made with MDF and used a textured roller on them and love the look and texture. My question if anyone can answer what did you use for dampening inside your cabinets? Did all go with the no rez? if so how much for the x-statiks is needed?... is the cost vs performance worth it?
Thanks
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question on the build plans and wondering if anyone took pics of the inside of their build.. I am wondering are those actual shelves inside according to the plans?... I am a bit confused on that...
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My question if anyone can answer what did you use for dampening inside your cabinets? Did all go with the no rez? if so how much for the x-statiks is needed?... is the cost vs performance worth it?
Thanks
Yep. Use the No-Rez. Don't try to save twenty bucks and use something cheaper. Do it right the first time. Call Danny for the amounts. It's probably around two sheets and no more than three.
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question on the build plans and wondering if anyone took pics of the inside of their build.. I am wondering are those actual shelves inside according to the plans?... I am a bit confused on that...
yes, there are braces for the lower part... two if I remember, both with around 6" holes cut out in them for air movement. The cabinet plans should show it clearly.
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yes page three of the plans outlines The braces and size holes.. 2 for the C labeled braces and 1.5 circles for the B labeled braces.. plans make perfect sense now that i went back and looked at that. Thanks
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Finally ordered a pair of these from Danny yesterday.
Looking forward to them.
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awesome. You will love them. Did you go with the upgrades?
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Finally ordered a pair of these from Danny yesterday.
Looking forward to them.
For a kit that you can finish out for under $500, they are hard to beat.
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yes page three of the plans outlines The braces and size holes.. 2 for the C labeled braces and 1.5 circles for the B labeled braces.. plans make perfect sense now that i went back and looked at that. Thanks
The easiest way to get the braces with the half circle is to make the piece long enouh for two braces. Cut three holes in this piece. Then cut it in half. You now have two braces each with one and a half circles.
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Did you go with the upgrades?
Yes. No Rez, Sonicaps and Tube connectors. All make quite a big difference and are well worth it.
I would definitely build them with No Rez and Tube connectors. You can always add Sonicaps later since the
base is removable.
I used 2 sheets of No Rez, what Danny recommended. It was a little short so underneath the bottom brace was
not covered. I had changed the plans and added an additional brace so the bottom brace was about 4" from the bottom.
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The easiest way to get the braces with the half circle is to make the piece long enouh for two braces. Cut three holes in this piece. Then cut it in half. You now have two braces each with one and a half circles.
Mike, why didn't you tell me this BEFORE I built a half dozen of Danny's kits!! :duh:
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Mike, why didn't you tell me this BEFORE I built a half dozen of Danny's kits!! :duh:
Uhhh, don't know :scratch:
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I used a combination of paint and finished wood. My front and back panels were figured maple plywood with a light cherry stain, strips were a matching mahogany that I already had. The sides were truck bed liner with a light dusting of "granite" spray paint. Turned out better than expected.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=99552)
do you have a full length picture of your final product?
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Here they are at last spring's Lone Star Audio Fest. I'll get a better picture up asap.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=161920)
Here's another from the build.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=99551)
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does someone have a picture of their crossover..I am trying to figure out the wiring of it to the drivers... thank you..
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does someone have a picture of their crossover..I am trying to figure out the wiring of it to the drivers... thank you..
Here is a pic of the crossover with the Sonicap and Mills resistor upgrades.
(http://gr-research.com/pics/upgradedcrossover.jpg)
The lower woofers get wired in parallel and the mids get wired in parallel. There is a polarity flip on the lower woofers but the flip is made on the crossover board. So you just wire + to + and - to - board to drivers.
If it isn't clear call me and I'll walk you through it
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Thanks Danny that will help on the upgrades and it confirms what the I was thinking by the picture sent with the kit... My one question is that small resistor on the lower left portion..what is that soldered to specifically? that yellow cap?
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Thanks Danny that will help on the upgrades and it confirms what the I was thinking by the picture sent with the kit... My one question is that small resistor on the lower left portion..what is that soldered to specifically? that yellow cap?
It's in the mid circuit.
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Thanks Danny that will help on the upgrades and it confirms what the I was thinking by the picture sent with the kit... My one question is that small resistor on the lower left portion..what is that soldered to specifically? that yellow cap?
Are you asking about the green resistor that is on the board or the small white part that is sitting between the red and yellow caps?
If it is the small white part, that is a by-pass cap which is soldered to the leads of the yellow cap.
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He shot me an e-mail. He was asking about the by-pass cap.
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Here is a pic of the crossover with the Sonicap and Mills resistor upgrades.
(http://gr-research.com/pics/upgradedcrossover.jpg)
The lower woofers get wired in parallel and the mids get wired in parallel. There is a polarity flip on the lower woofers but the flip is made on the crossover board. So you just wire + to + and - to - board to drivers.
If it isn't clear call me and I'll walk you through it
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crossover caps added... so my next question(S) is speaker wire...do I create connections terminals directly to the crossover for each woofer..ie 2 sets of wire to woofers etc? also the size hole do I drill for the binding tubes I have ?
Thanks
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crossover caps added... so my next question(S) is speaker wire...do I create connections terminals directly to the crossover for each woofer..ie 2 sets of wire to woofers etc? also the size hole do I drill for the binding tubes I have ?
Thanks
The crossover has through holes there on the board for the wiring. Just feed the wire through from the front and solder it to the back side of the board just like all the components.
For the drivers solder the wire directly to the terminals. Tin the wire and tin the terminals with solder. Then lay the wire flat against it and solder it to it.
The tube connectors need a 7?16" through hole.
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Thanks Dannie that makes sense...for clarification do I ie woofers use one wire for both woofers to the cross over and lastly the input section on the board I assume goes to the speaker terminals themselves?..forgive me this is my first ever speaker build...
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Thanks Dannie that makes sense...for clarification do I ie woofers use one wire for both woofers to the cross over and lastly the input section on the board I assume goes to the speaker terminals themselves?..forgive me this is my first ever speaker build...
Your questions are always welcome.
You can wire a single pair of wires to the woofers (lower) and jumper from the lower one to the upper one. You can do the same with the mids.
And yes, the input section of the crossover board receives the wires from the tube connectors.
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lastly what did everyone do for the wiring of the open baffle portion with the crossover inside the enclosure?
THanks
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These were production units.
(http://gr-research.com/pics/backpeaking.jpg)
(http://gr-research.com/pics/glossblack1.jpg)
Put a couple of small holes in the sealed section right below the lower mid and run your wiring up through there.
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tweeter polarity..doesnt seem to be marked any thoughts?
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tweeter polarity..doesnt seem to be marked any thoughts?
The larger terminal is the positive one.
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(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=171423)
getting there... and they work!
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Hmmm, the kit should have arrived with black Torx head screws for all the drivers.
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Danny if they did I couldnt find them.. its no worry I actually kind of like this look personally :) besides it is more how they sound in the end for me .
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anyone think I have a bad tweeter?
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=171564)
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Well, something's not right. It could be the tweeter, but that's easy to check. Run your speaker wire (at low volume) direct to the tweeter with a protective cap in line to see if you get sound. I'm betting the problem is in your crossover or hookup. Regardless, Danny will help you sort it out.
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I actually swapped out the known good tweeter and got the same result.. I cannot see any wiring issues with the crossover itself as they are both identical. I emailed Danny so I will wait and see what he thinks...
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Then it has to be in your crossover or connection to the tweeter. You have inspected the crossover and they LOOK identical. Triple check that. Then put on some music, softly, and wiggle each connection in the bad crossover (looking for a bad solder joint). If that doesn't revel the problem, step away for a day and try to get another pair of eyes on the crossover comparison. We tend to look for problems the same way, in the same patterns. Someone else will approach it differently.
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You likely have a connection on the crossover not making contact going to the tweeter. Check your connections.
Also, while a bass management system might improve the lower end response, it might suck the life out of the music for the rest of your signal to pass though it. Depending on your set up then you might want to only allow the signal to the lower woofers passing through it.
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Thanks all It was a combination of the crossover connection and the actual tweeter connection. I am good now on it. Danny not sure what you mean by just letting the signal pass thru the lower end? I have 2 subs I utilize for the lower end...if you are referring to the graph it was just a measurement I took before any settings changes in my system itself..
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Thanks all It was a combination of the crossover connection and the actual tweeter connection. I am good now on it. Danny not sure what you mean by just letting the signal pass thru the lower end? I have 2 subs I utilize for the lower end...if you are referring to the graph it was just a measurement I took before any settings changes in my system itself..
No, I mean that I would not let the signal to the Mids and tweeter pass through a room correction device. Letting the lower woofers signal pass through a device like that might not be too bad though.
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thanks for all the help... these things sounds incredible!! I just sold my Magnepan 3.7i due to moving into a smaller place and I am more than happy with these replacing them!!
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how much toe-in do you all do with your set up?
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how much toe-in do you all do with your set up?
That depends on the room and seating position. Move them around and hear what works best for you.
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thanks been doing that think I have them dialed in. I was wondering if anyone has compared the x-statik to the ob-5 and ob-7?
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I have a few customers that went from their Statements models to X-Statik's. Maybe they'll chime it.
The design philosophies couldn't be more different actually. They go in directions that I avoid like the plague.
I don't care for the metal cone drivers and especially the Dayton reference line. They sound very veiled and muddy to me, and they have sever ringing in the upper ranges. They could be used for low bass only, buy in their designs the high crossover points allow them well into the mid-range.
They also use very high crossover points. This doesn't allow the drivers to blend very well and causes out of phase cancellation effects in the vertical off axis that cause un-even room responses. It also diminishes the cohesiveness of the speaker and allows one to easily pin point locations of the tweeter, mids, and woofers. I tend to focus on transparency, sound stage layering, imaging, and presentation. Their design goes against those things by design.
And while the ribbon that they use is very nice, crossing it to the mid at 3.5kHz means it isn't even handling the delicate upper fundamentals. It is limited to only upper level harmonics. The mid is having to handle all the fundamentals. The tweeter in the X-Statik crosses in the 1.8kHz range. So the much more delicate details are handled by a much faster and more capable driver than a mid-range driver.
The low crossover point of the X-Statik also produces a much more accurate vertical off axis response.
And the vocal region of the open baffle X-Statik is on another level all together. You just can't get there in a boxed speaker even using the same high quality drivers let alone the drivers used in those designs.
I also tend to focus more on parts quality, wire, connectors, and everything that effects the signal transfer.
DO you think the same would apply for BMR Philharmonitors? I know they have different drivers altogether, so I wonder what your thoughts are on those. I am intrigued by the OB X-Statik, though I have been leaning toward the Philharmonitors for quite some time due to the stellar reviews. Also, changing from box to OB in my 14x20x10 room is concerning. Some people imply that an OB system would need more breathing room, while others think it works fine.
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Some people imply that an OB system would need more breathing room, while others think it works fine.
Danny designed them and recommends the baffle be a minimum 3’ from The front wall. More will likely be better. It has to do with the timing of the rear wave reflecting off the front wall. If it’s too close it will smear the sound.
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DO you think the same would apply for BMR Philharmonitors? I know they have different drivers altogether, so I wonder what your thoughts are on those. I am intrigued by the OB X-Statik, though I have been leaning toward the Philharmonitors for quite some time due to the stellar reviews. Also, changing from box to OB in my 14x20x10 room is concerning. Some people imply that an OB system would need more breathing room, while others think it works fine.
That's a comparison I would certainly welcome.
Regarding that speaker that you mentioned. It would be interesting if they showed the vertical off axis response and vertical off axis cancellation patterns from the out of phase areas in the response. For some reason they tend to not want to share that information. I wonder why?
The X-Statik will take transparency, imaging, and layering of the sound stage to another level. The whole vocal region will be another level.
And with the money you save building an X-Statik kit you'll have enough money left over to add a servo sub to each side and be completely full range.
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and, as long as you can keep them a minimum of 3' off the front wall, you will have no issues in that sized room, they'll work great
jay
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I also make sure that the impedance loads...
Danny,
Do you have a measured impedance curve for the X-Static handy?
I have a question on another forum where it will impact his choice of amplifier.
dave